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Digital Gaming => Computer Gaming => Topic started by: Martok on December 11, 2014, 10:11:58 AM

Title: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: Martok on December 11, 2014, 10:11:58 AM
Looks like Longbow's next title is going back to the very early days of Rome, when they were just another city-state, and rule of Italy was completely up for grabs.  Interesting that they're turning to KS to complete the project this time. 


https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/longbowgames/hegemony-iii-clash-of-the-ancients


Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: Anguille on December 11, 2014, 10:43:40 AM
Nice! Going to support it... O0
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: Nefaro on December 11, 2014, 10:49:33 AM
I'm tempted to do it but:

1) I haven't even tried the latest one yet, despite owning it.

and

2) There is no telling when they will finish this thing.  The last one took much longer than expected and this one is just as, or more ambitious. 

But maybe it won't be so bad since they were probably rewriting the engine for the second one and don't need to make those changes again?  I dunno but I'm hesitant to kickstart something that may not see the light of day for years.

I think the Early Roman period is a better setting for a grand strategy game, more so than just running an already large and powerful Rome rough shod over neighbors.  To be able to play as the myriad of other factions would be nice.
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: sandman2575 on December 11, 2014, 11:07:13 AM
Yeah, I own Hegemony: Rome but have barely scratched the surface. It did take much longer to materialize than was anticipated, as Nef says -- and weirdly seemed a bit of a stumble, coming on the heels of the amazing polished and innovative Hegemony: Philip of Macedon -- still, to me, one of the most impressive indy titles in recent memory. But Hegemony Rome seemed plagued by bugs and half-baked concepts / UI functionality, and I don't know if this stuff has yet been solved?

I like Longbow and want them to succeed -- I may have to pony up for KS in that case --
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 11, 2014, 11:32:13 AM
To me, the biggest problem with Rome is that it just took too long to come out. In the interim, Rome II Total War came out which pretty much became my "go to" Rome game. There just wasn't enough in Hegemony to draw me away from Rome II.
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: tgb on December 11, 2014, 02:08:42 PM
I was hoping they would fix the screwy diplomacy with Romes, and they didn't.  This is a wait-and-see title for me.
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: Martok on December 11, 2014, 02:48:06 PM
Quote from: tgb on December 11, 2014, 02:08:42 PM
I was hoping they would fix the screwy diplomacy with Romes, and they didn't.  This is a wait-and-see title for me.
Diplomacy in general is a feature that seems to have long been lacking in the Hegemony series.  If they could rectify that, I would definitely be more interested. 

Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: sandman2575 on December 11, 2014, 03:06:39 PM
In fairness, diplomacy has long been a feature missing in, well, nearly all games I can think of!

I honestly can't think of a game that has a genuinely enjoyable and interesting diplomacy layer. The 'transactional' diplomacy model of Civilization is (like most things inherited from Civ) far too prevalent in games, mostly 4x but also, say, Paradox titles like Europa Universalis, great game though it is.

Of course, if compelling diplomacy were easy to model, some clever devs would've come up with something by now. But I struggle to think of a game where diplomacy isn't just some ancillary annoyance that boils down to "please trade with me so I can have $$" or "please don't attack me, you're stronger." 

....I dunno, maybe that's what real diplomacy boils down to anyway.  Realpolitik, dammit!   8)
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: Nefaro on December 11, 2014, 03:34:48 PM
Sure but there was only one method of diplomacy in Hegemony:  Bribing neighbors to not attack you.  And then they would just request higher rates until you couldn't afford them and eventually attack you anyway.  That is much worse than the pre-Shogun 2 Total Wars where your allies would just revoke the alliance and attack you without provocation (or any sense at times like when Georgia would attack Russia). 

They all use a point-based system with various bonuses & penalties, although some are more detailed in that regard.  EU4 being a prime example of the latter situation.

Longbow's games barely even bother with that bribery mechanic.  Evidently it's still the same in the Caesar sequel.

I liked their first one, but it had some glaring weaknesses.  Maybe they will alleviate them with this one but I wouldn't expect to see it materialize for quite awhile yet to even know.
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: panzerde on December 11, 2014, 06:08:45 PM
I enjoyed the first one too - I bought it directly from the developers as they were sitting at a booth at Gencon. There are some weaknesses in the game, but at the time the ability to zoom all the way from a tight tactical view out to a big picture strategic view seamlessly was unheard of. They did a lot right in that initial release.

Unfortunately it didn't seem to me that Rome had kept up with the times. I haven't bought it, though perhaps it's time for another look, particularly if it's on sale.

The new one will have to be something special to get me to throw in on another Kickstarter. Too many projects I funded have fallen short of their promises to the point where I've started to associate "Kickstarter" with "incomplete and of poor quality."
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: sandman2575 on December 11, 2014, 07:59:25 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on December 11, 2014, 03:34:48 PM
Sure but there was only one method of diplomacy in Hegemony:  Bribing neighbors to not attack you.  And then they would just request higher rates until you couldn't afford them and eventually attack you anyway.  That is much worse than the pre-Shogun 2 Total Wars where your allies would just revoke the alliance and attack you without provocation (or any sense at times like when Georgia would attack Russia). 

Yeah, that's true -- I had forgotten how minimal the first game's diplo was -- in fact, I think it initially had no diplomacy at all -- whenever you encountered a new faction, you were automatically at war with them, so you had a weird incentive *not* to explore your surroundings too much, or to really pace yourself anyway...

Still, the diplo in TW Rome 2 is pretty atrocious in its own right.
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: Nefaro on December 12, 2014, 01:45:11 AM
Quote from: sandman2575 on December 11, 2014, 07:59:25 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on December 11, 2014, 03:34:48 PM
Sure but there was only one method of diplomacy in Hegemony:  Bribing neighbors to not attack you.  And then they would just request higher rates until you couldn't afford them and eventually attack you anyway.  That is much worse than the pre-Shogun 2 Total Wars where your allies would just revoke the alliance and attack you without provocation (or any sense at times like when Georgia would attack Russia). 

Yeah, that's true -- I had forgotten how minimal the first game's diplo was -- in fact, I think it initially had no diplomacy at all -- whenever you encountered a new faction, you were automatically at war with them, so you had a weird incentive *not* to explore your surroundings too much, or to really pace yourself anyway...

Still, the diplo in TW Rome 2 is pretty atrocious in its own right.

You're correct.  The original Hegemony had no diplo at all (I don't recall if there was even a sandbox).  But the Gold re-release added that stuff.  Fortunately Longbow is a reputable developer when it comes to their DRM and re-releases.  I got the Gold version for free since I had purchased the original before Gold was announced.  Such integrity is probably why I'm still on the fence about kickstarting the next one.

The diplo in Rome 2 is still a big improvement over those in NTW/ETW and earlier.
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: Boggit on December 12, 2014, 11:55:35 AM
I liked the first one. Apart from the diplmacy, my only other gripe was the handling of the skirmishers - there was no skirmish mode for them and you had to micromanage them, which was a chore. Have they fixed this yet in Hegemnony Tome?
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: bwithers on December 17, 2014, 12:33:41 PM
The developers are going to do a live stream of the early alpha gameplay, the new game editor and also a developer Q&A on Thursday (december 18th) at 8pm GMT/ 3pm EST.

So check the new developers twitch channel on Thursday if you wan't to know more about the game and you can ask questions about it if you are not sure about pledging.

Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/longbowgames
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: WallysWorld on June 19, 2015, 02:40:43 PM
This game is now on Steam's website, but not yet released:  http://store.steampowered.com/app/308173/ (http://store.steampowered.com/app/308173/)
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: sandman2575 on June 19, 2015, 03:02:55 PM
Looks very cool.  Although I can't shake the feeling that Hegemony Rome is being written off by the devs, somewhat along the lines of what happened with StarDrive.

I still don't get what happened with Heg. Rome's strange development. Only in the latest patch did they finally introduce unit formations -- a basic feature that Hegemony Philip of Macedon had from the get-go. It's like Longbow struggled mightily to implement things in Heg. Rome that already worked perfectly well in that game's predecessor --  ???
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: WallysWorld on June 19, 2015, 03:41:44 PM
I really liked Hegemony:Wars of Ancient Greece, but with The Rise of Caesar, I get quite a lot of stuttering when trying to move the map around. It seems the optimization just wasn't quite there with Rome like it was with the Greece game. Still I look forward to this new game.
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: Philippe on June 19, 2015, 03:58:31 PM
I suspect it may have had something to do with coming to terms with the fact that Hegemony isn't a tactical game and that the formations that were available in the first Hegemony were even less appropriate in the second game than they were in the first.

The first time I played Hegemony I very laboriously drew my armies up in Macedonian-style battle formations, phalanxes in the center, hysaspists next, with light troops and peltasts on the outer flanks.

I still try to draw my troops up that way out of nostalgia, but what works better in the game is to put your peltasts directly behind your phalanx.  I don't think there are any known instances of anyone doing that in Classical Antiquity before the third century A.D., and even then it was an abberation tempered by my foggy memory.

If you think about it too hard you'll realize that Hegemony is less influenced by ancient warfare than the Total War series.  Even the formations that were alluded to in all likelihood only exist in modern games: I don't recall seeing them in ancient tactical manuals.  The first time I saw the formations in Hegemony I, the first thing that struck me was that the only formations that you couldn't put your cavalry into were the ones the Macedonians and Thessalians actually used.  The formations were there to make Total War players comfortable, not to simulate reality, and they aren't all that useful in any case.

So I really didn't miss formations in Hegemony II.  On the contrary, I applauded their absence.

I don't have a problem with the testudo, but it was only used when assaulting cities, Hollywood notwithstanding.
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: panzerde on June 19, 2015, 04:39:36 PM
+1 to the above. I like the game, but more for the operational/strategic aspects than the pseudo-tactical bits. My experience is very much the same as Philippe's.

Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: Nefaro on June 19, 2015, 05:54:38 PM
Quote from: WallysWorld on June 19, 2015, 02:40:43 PM
This game is now on Steam's website, but not yet released:  http://store.steampowered.com/app/308173/ (http://store.steampowered.com/app/308173/)

Looks like they're finally adding more sandbox features.  O0
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: tgb on August 24, 2015, 10:49:37 PM
This gets an official release on Steam tomorrow with a "loyalty discount" that gets the price down to about $20.  I'm still waiting for Longbow to implement meaningful diplomacy instead of "give me x gold and I'll leave you alone for a while".  If they did that I'm probably in.
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: Bison on August 24, 2015, 11:14:20 PM
I'm a little annoyed because I bought the original Hegemony game on the now defunct Impulse and there is now way in hell I'm figuring out the bs Gamestop site to attempt get my games back.  Point being I really love the game, but it would be so much better if it had real diplomacy like tgb says.
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: tgb on August 25, 2015, 03:14:05 PM
I just watched the developer's livestream.

I'm a little disappointed that diplomacy still isn't better developed, but I like the increased focus on city-building and the alternative victory conditions. For $20 I'll probably grab it.

Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: WallysWorld on August 25, 2015, 04:19:00 PM
Will definitely keep an eye on this game. Here is the wiki for the game: http://hegemony.gamepedia.com/Hegemony_III:_Clash_of_Ancients_Wiki (http://hegemony.gamepedia.com/Hegemony_III:_Clash_of_Ancients_Wiki)
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: Gusington on August 25, 2015, 08:36:32 PM
Just watched the video...I agree with tgb that the city building aspect makes this one look meatier than the original. And the price is right. Goddamit.
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: tgb on August 25, 2015, 11:10:41 PM
 It seems a lot easier to outgrow your economy in the beginning than in the previous games - probably due to the overhead of city improvements. My army right now consists of a single axeman and a single spearman, and I'm still running 25 g in the red every week because I've yet to find a mine, and the cost of maintaining trade routes to the food and lumber producing sites is eating me alive.
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: son_of_montfort on August 26, 2015, 10:43:56 AM
Quote from: Bison on August 24, 2015, 11:14:20 PM
I'm a little annoyed because I bought the original Hegemony game on the now defunct Impulse and there is now way in hell I'm figuring out the bs Gamestop site to attempt get my games back.  Point being I really love the game, but it would be so much better if it had real diplomacy like tgb says.

I had this problem with Revolution Under Siege and I'm not exactly sure how I fixed it. I think you can log in to the Gamestop application and get the keys which may or may not attach to Steam. Keep digging, because there is a way to extricate yourself from that terrible GS app.
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: Ian C on August 27, 2015, 12:16:05 PM
Looks interesting indeed, but I'm undecided as yet. Mentions a good AI in this review:


Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: Ian C on August 30, 2015, 12:52:14 PM
I took the plunge. I also got Hegemony Gold Wars of Ancient Greece and I'm enjoying them both. Real time 1 hour = 1 game year is a bit of a new thing for me, but I'm finding it highly immersive and very challenging. Anyone else on board? Thoughts?
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: Jarhead0331 on August 30, 2015, 12:59:56 PM
I'm pretty pissed about Hegemony II Rise of Rome. I think it had a really awkward development cycle and was never truly made with love and dedication. I think ultimately, it was just abandoned before it was really completed and left to whither and rot on the vine.

I'm going to need a more significant discount to take the plunge again.
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: Anguille on August 30, 2015, 03:13:08 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on August 30, 2015, 12:59:56 PM
I'm pretty pissed about Hegemony II Rise of Rome. I think it had a really awkward development cycle and was never truly made with love and dedication. I think ultimately, it was just abandoned before it was really completed and left to whither and rot on the vine.

I'm going to need a more significant discount to take the plunge again.
Where do you see the biggest problems in the game?
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: sandman2575 on August 30, 2015, 06:01:19 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on August 30, 2015, 12:59:56 PM
I'm pretty pissed about Hegemony II Rise of Rome. I think it had a really awkward development cycle and was never truly made with love and dedication. I think ultimately, it was just abandoned before it was really completed and left to whither and rot on the vine.

+1  I still don't get what happened with Rise of Rome. It never achieved the polish of the original Hegemony. Does feel like Longbow just kind of washed their hands of this to move on to Hegemony III.  A little similar to what happened with the original StarDrive.
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: son_of_montfort on August 31, 2015, 10:10:37 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on August 30, 2015, 12:59:56 PM
I'm pretty pissed about Hegemony II Rise of Rome. I think it had a really awkward development cycle and was never truly made with love and dedication. I think ultimately, it was just abandoned before it was really completed and left to whither and rot on the vine.

I'm going to need a more significant discount to take the plunge again.

From what I heard, particularly in regards to the raider spam, this one sounds problematic as well. That is a huge shame, because it looked like a very nice take on the ancient world (I was not a huge fan of Rome II: TW).
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: JasonPratt on September 01, 2015, 09:10:37 AM
But I've also read (on Steam forums) that the devs are squashing bugs fast now that it's out of ahem beta ;) . Maybe they'll fix the raider problem (which is that the raiders auto-scale to the opponent's tech, but the surrounding cultures have a hard time playing the game directly to develop up the way the player is nominally doing.)
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: Ian C on September 02, 2015, 05:35:58 AM
Having not played Hegemony Rome (so I wasn't burned and can walk into this game with an even keel), and having played several hours of Hegemony Gold Greece and ten hours of Hegemony III here are my thoughts.

Is it confirmed that the 'raider spam' is an actual genuine bug? It doesn't break the game but it makes it damn challenging. Damn challenging and at times infuriating. I can deal with raiders if my economy is on the upswing, and doing that is dependent on very careful planning and adjusting to seasonal changes in production as well as creating the bare minimum of trade routes and dissolving them when unnecessary, then rebuilding them again when stockpiles are low. I saw one trade route from a mine became useless during certain times of the year because the marsh it ran through became flooded. As a result, I went into a deficit. These realistic touches are greatly immersive. I rectified this by having it take a shorter route through non-marsh areas, but to do that I had to take out a raider camp so I could build a bridgehead. That alone took me a year. It was a shorter route and my economy grew. With raiders, to make matters worse they can also appear sea-borne on your coastal areas.

There are times when I'm not making enough coin to field forces capable of defending against raiders and so far if I'm honest, it's down to poor economic management. Raiders are not 'conveniently' generated when you are sitting pretty on heaps of coin and can recruit armies in a few turns, like other games. They appear at any time, sometimes in force. It's also worth noting that you must be prepared to lose battles against them. You cannot be everywhere, at once, in the early stages. Unlike other games, it's also uneconomical to maintain a garrison in every city in the early stages. Units are expensive to maintain, and doing things that seem commonplace in other games (like big garrisons or maintaining a tactical or strategic reserve) will eat your economy. You can't do it at first. Again, I can see this as being a source of frustration for many.

Recruitment is slow and takes a long time, so you can't just pop five new units in your training queue and they are done in two turns then have them run off at speed to catch raiders before they strip your mine and burn your farm to the ground. 1 hour of real time is 1 year of in-game time. That's about 6 days every minute. I'm seeing my small community grow and expand despite great odds and for me, it feels realistic and immersive. I can understand others frustration in not being able to field big armies and go on huge campaigns from the get-go. It's not that kind of game. I'd describe it as a 'survivalist empire sim'.

Might not be others cup of tea, but I'm struggling, surviving, sometimes barely and every accomplishment is hard-won. I don't see anything wrong in that. The satisfaction from hard-won small-scale battles is so much greater, when it means not losing your mine and having to go into a deficit or losing a farm that means your food is going to dwindle over winter. Not having enough food means morale suffers. The whole chain of logistics, military effectiveness and population growth is precarious and yes, having raiders take out a single livestock farm in a small empire is a huge deal that can set you back months. It will make you furious.

This game is tough, very tough, and at times it makes me want to shout rude things out loud, but it's giving me a lot of fun. Dare I say it's quite realistic? My advice: start small, think big, balance well, take the losses.
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: Ian C on September 02, 2015, 05:37:59 AM
Double post.
Title: Re: Hegemony III: Clash of the Ancients - Kickstarter campaign
Post by: JasonPratt on September 02, 2015, 03:26:55 PM
I don't think the raider thing is a bug; it seems clearly designed that way.