Your definitive favorite ETO wargame

Started by GJK, November 15, 2014, 07:04:20 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

GJK

Ok fellow GH's, I'm looking for your input and arguments as to what your favorite ETO wargame is.  I'm on a kick to invest the time and energy to learn a system with the intentions of first playing it solitaire and then possibly with my son or a group from my FLGS.  Here's what I have and what I've looked in to and my comments on each thus far:

1. AH's Third Reich (owned).  An industry standard.  Somewhat rules intense but manageable.  I enjoy the old PC game version (I have a game of it going now).  Game components are sub-par but acceptable.  I like (somewhat) the notion that a blunderous move/sequence can spoil your offensive option.  I worry about the replay value however.

2. John Prados' Third Reich (owned). I love the look of the counters in this one.  Don't care for the map so much though (I do have the enlarged version).  Not sure what I think of the "Bucket of dice" combat system but it wouldn't be a deal breaker.  I think that this one got an initial bad rap because of the initial ruleset that it came with.  I hear that the final rules version makes this a fairly clean system.  Willing to invest the time to give it a run if there's some positive input on this title.  I do like the variable events that can throw a twist on history.  That is the biggest plus on this one for me.

3. World in Flames 4th Edition (owned).  My buddy "Mad Russian" suggested this one so I picked up a copy.  This is WiF before the madness of all of the expansions.  The production spiral seems interesting and I like the 80's graphics on this one; simple yet effective.  I've glanced over the rules but put it aside as it is definitely going to be a time investment and I would want this to be the one when I do decide on a system to invest my time in to.  Downside is that if I do pick WiF, everybody else is going to be playing the latest edition most likely and I would possibly have to unlearn some of the system in order to get up to speed with the latest rules and just knowing what rules to use for this and later editions is already so confusing.

4. World in Flames Final Edition (owned).  See above.  They say that this is the end all of global conflict.  It would take a large investment of time to learn.  I also don't care for all the options in the rules based on what expansions you own.  Just a glance at the rules has lots of rules omissions/inclusion based on expansions and so it seems that just organizing a game with an opponent would be a chore trying to decide on what rules to include.  Frankly, this may be just too much of a monster to invest the time in to.  I have an itch to play something ETO/Global, not a rash.

5. SPI/TSR European Theater of Operations (owned). I like that it has leaders.  The very 80's graphics don't put me off, I kind of like them.  I've grabbed a copy of a rules tweak as posted on BGG that adds errata and cleans up some things.  This too would be a huge time investment however.

6. Hitler's War (owned).  The original graphics were horrendous.  I've designed and printed my own and I like what I came up with.  This game is stupid simple to learn and play and it gives a somewhat accurate sense of the conflict somehow.  It's also very manageable in play time.  What I don't care for is the scale.  I don't want something with 1000's of counters but I also don't want 10 units total for both the Germans and Soviets on the East Front. HW in Third Reich scale would be ideal and I've actually tinkered with coming up with something along those lines.  Maybe I should invest the time to tweak that and design the product myself?

7. The Supreme Commander (owned).  Getting in to something that is actually in print may be the way to go.  This is a fairly recent design.  I like the scale.  I like the graphics.  It was plagued by initial print issues but GMT provided a kit to fix the broken.  There's just not a lot of feedback on this one on BGG so I'm cautious about spending the time to learn it in case it turns out to be a lemon.  Anybody with any experience with this one?

8. Unconditional Surrender.  I don't have a copy but would be willing to seek one out.  This came out at about the same time as TSC and I think that hurt both titles.  I hear that this is very much a political game which may or may not interest me so much.  I just want to push panzer's around but I also don't want to get stuck with the same Poland-Denmark-Belgium-Netherlands-France-Russia cycle every single game (see Third Reich).

9. Other.  Is there another game system worth learning?  There's Proud Monster and it's companion games.  Didn't care that the units have no unit designations or leaders (as I recall).  There's the block games by Columbia but since I'll be playing this solitaire (at least initially), I'm not sure that a block game will work here because of the FOW. 

How about you guys...what have you played and what would you suggest?  If it has a PC/VASSAL component to it, that would be a plus.  I own the disaster that is MWiF and could just invest the time to learn that system that way I suppose.  For now, I'm enjoying 3RPC via DOSBox even though it has some bugs as far as rules implementation.  So I'll open the discussion for you guys....make your arguments!
Clip your freaking corners!
----------------------
Blood Bowl on VASSAL - Ask me about it! http://garykrockover.com/BB/
----------------------
"Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son."

-Dean Vernon Wormer

bayonetbrant

I'd go with (in order)

JP's Third Reich
Columbia's Eurofront games (the FOW isn't an issue playing solitaire; you can't use it, but you don't need it even with multiple people)
AH Third Reich

If you want a MONSTER game, consider this one
http://compassgames.com/index.php/military-simulations/the-war-europe-1939-1945.html
I've heard good things about it from folks like the "big" games

The opposite of a monster, tho still on pre-order, is this one
http://ossgamescart.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=44

One thing to consider - none of them are as well-balanced for multiplayer as the original AH Third Reich game, which can easily play 4-5 and keep them all involved.  The downside is that there's a LOT of space on the east side of that map, and the German-Russian part of the war can drag/bog down with the amount of space out there.
The key to surviving this site is to not say something which ends up as someone's tag line - Steelgrave

"their citizens (all of them counted as such) glorified their mythology of 'rights'...and lost track of their duties. No nation, so constituted, can endure." Robert Heinlein, Starship Troopers

GJK

Thanks for the reply Brant.

Wow, so JP3R huh?  I have a pair of guys on VASSAL bugging me to join them on that one.  I redesigned the map and AP put it in their "official" VASSAL module.  I might just have to break out that rulebook.

I have seen 2WW and in fact was going to ask Jon if there was some more info/updates on that one.  Looks to be like HW in a way.  Not sure.

Have you tried either of GMT's newest offerings, in particular TSC?  That's where I'm leaning, just to test it out at least but now JP3R is really looking tempting if that's your #1.
Clip your freaking corners!
----------------------
Blood Bowl on VASSAL - Ask me about it! http://garykrockover.com/BB/
----------------------
"Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son."

-Dean Vernon Wormer

Barthheart

AH Third Reich 4th edition I bought when I was about 16 and played it a lot. My counters show a lot of ware.
Loved that game. haven't played in 30 years. Tried to get back into it but just don't have the head for the rules anymore.
I also had the PC version and though it was fun but was really bummed when they didn't fix the bugs.

I just acquired GMT's Unconditional Surrender. Love the map and counters and all the charts. Rules are clear but very different from most hex and counter games.
It took a bit of playing with the beginner scenarios but now it just all clicks. It is a really great game.
A little more political at the start. This helps with replayability as you can get some interesting non-historical alliances setting up. But once German, Britian/France and Russian are all at war the politics are over.
It has random or historical army expansions. Random or historical US entry.
Well done air and naval parts of the conflict. You need to keep supplies running to your overseas adventures. You can intercept the enemies supply attempts.
Your economy runs everything from moving, building, reinforcing, replacing, special actions.
There is strategic warfare to screw with your opponents economy.

Once you know the combat system you can go whole turns without even looking at the combat tables it's that straight forward. Land, air and naval all use the same system so you don't have to learn multiple combat systems.

It really is great, and I think much easier to learn/relearn the  Third Reich.

Cyrano

I'll echo Brant's recommendation for Eurofront II.  I'm not sure the flame will be worth the candle with respect to the supply rules -- at least as read -- but I get what this game is getting at and it feels right.  And Brant's also right -- and I was quite surprised by this -- that the FoW is almost an optional rule -- not in the rules themselves mind, but in fact.

I'm very curious about the light 2P game GMT has up on P500, but will likely wait to hear a review or two.

You also forgot to ask the most important question about any game of this sort -- where do you find a group of fine, beer/scotch/whiskey-drinking fellow to play them with...and the time to get them done!

Best,

Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)
Sergeant at Arms of La Fraternite des Boutons Carres

One mustachioed, cigar-chomping, bespectacled deity, entirely at your service.

You didn't know? My Corps has already sailed to Berlin. We got there 3 days ago and we've been in the Tiergarten on the piss ever since. -- Marshal Soult, October 1806

Rekim

Quote from: GJK on November 15, 2014, 07:04:20 AM
9. Other.  Is there another game system worth learning?  There's Proud Monster and it's companion games.  Didn't care that the units have no unit designations or leaders (as I recall).  There's the block games by Columbia but since I'll be playing this solitaire (at least initially), I'm not sure that a block game will work here because of the FOW

What is your concern wrt FOW when playing block games solo, Gary? Unless you have a photographic memory, block games provide a level of FOW that can't be matched by games that use chits. There is a catch mind you. Playing block games solo+FOW requires you to play from both sides of the table.

GJK

Well I've started to dig in to the rules for TSC and I really like what I'm reading thus far.  Rules are light and I can see where the game designer in fact did what he said that he wanted to do; he took his favorite parts from a number of games to come up with this one.  There's some 3R4 in there with the MSP's (as compared to BRP's) but it's not nearly as complicated.  Supply adds rail lines which many others don't have (I think Totaler Krieg uses them and that's one that I forgot to mention on my list).  One interesting concept is Soviet production.  They have a number of production centers (factories) that can be torn down and relocated as the Germans advance in order to avoid capture and conversion to German production.  I'm not sure about how historically accurate that is but it's interesting to me. 

The graphics are great - it's a clean looking game and the counters are "steps" where an Army will reduce to 3 corps before disintegrating.  I really like that.  Air and Naval is handled differently in that air doesn't actually fly from a base to assist an attack.  I'm in the middle of that portion of the rules but they are handled via boxes where units are allocated (along with possible "dummy" committments) and then the counters are flipped and air/naval superiority is determined.

This might be my game but I won't know until I actually start pushing some counters around of course.

Re: Block Games.  I guess I have a fear of the unknown as I've never played a block game.  The 4-3-2-1 step reduction seems a bit abstracted to me but I guess I'm contradicting myself since I just mentioned how I like the step reductions in TSC.  I guess seeing an Army break down to it's weaker corps components seems much more realistic to me than an army (corps?) going from a "4" to a "3".  Again though, fear of the unknown as I just don't know block games.

I am curious about Unconditional Surrender as I've read some great reviews for it.  I'll have to investigate it once I've played around with TSC a few times.
Clip your freaking corners!
----------------------
Blood Bowl on VASSAL - Ask me about it! http://garykrockover.com/BB/
----------------------
"Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son."

-Dean Vernon Wormer

ArizonaTank

Some other thoughts

A World at War:  Honorable mention should go to this GMT monster.  Another more recent branch of the AH Third Reich tree.  Covers the ETO and PTO, but there is an ETO only game. The rulebook is almost an inch thick...so more of a lifestyle choice than a game. 

Liberty Roads: I own this, and have heard good things about it.  But just haven't had the chance to play it yet.

Not to go off into the weeds, but if anyone wants to try ETO in WWI, the Der Weltkrieg is worth a look.

Johannes "Honus" Wagner
"The Flying Dutchman"
Shortstop: Pittsburgh Pirates 1900-1917
Rated as the 2nd most valuable player of all time by Bill James.

Barthheart

Quote from: GJK on November 16, 2014, 04:11:54 AM
....
I am curious about Unconditional Surrender as I've read some great reviews for it.  I'll have to investigate it once I've played around with TSC a few times.

There's a free print n play version of Unconditional Surrender on BGG  that is just Case Blue. Shows the combat system really well.

Cyrano

"A World at War" is a lifestyle choice not a game.  I had a discount mint copy in my hands at GenCon, but, for the first time, I was concerned that my failing eyesight wouldn't let me read the rule book.  Note to designers:  using a font of that size with your demographics is a bad decision.  I"m told there's much to love there by those that have taken the plunge, but I fear I shall never know.

"Liberty Roads" is a magnificent game if you can find an affordable copy, but, if memory serves, it doesn't have the scope you were looking for?  If it is, I'll throw in a strong vote for "Battle for Normandy".  I've only played a few of the smaller scenarios, but it really is a well-designed monster.

Best,

Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)
Sergeant at Arms of La Fraternite des Boutons Carres

One mustachioed, cigar-chomping, bespectacled deity, entirely at your service.

You didn't know? My Corps has already sailed to Berlin. We got there 3 days ago and we've been in the Tiergarten on the piss ever since. -- Marshal Soult, October 1806

ArizonaTank

I have both Unconditional Surrender and The Supreme Commander.  I read the rules to both, but have only started playing TSC.  I think the biggest reason I have favored TSC, is that TSC uses familiar concepts in a good way...at least it is that way for me.  TSC feels to me like a de-cluttered version of A3R...it is not of course...just feels that way.

US is a different story.  I have read through the US rules, and it was a hard read for me.  US is certainly innovative, and it has gotten some good press, but I have found it harder than TSC to get my head around.  I also think it is telling that US has so many play examples, learning scenarios, and the designer even re-wrote the rules in learning game order.  So that has slowed my taking up US.  But that is not to say I don't think there is goodness in there.  It just seems to be the kind of game I'll have to work at until "I get it."
Johannes "Honus" Wagner
"The Flying Dutchman"
Shortstop: Pittsburgh Pirates 1900-1917
Rated as the 2nd most valuable player of all time by Bill James.

BanzaiCat

Quote from: GJK on November 15, 2014, 07:04:20 AM
6. Hitler's War (owned).  The original graphics were horrendous.  I've designed and printed my own and I like what I came up with.  This game is stupid simple to learn and play and it gives a somewhat accurate sense of the conflict somehow.  It's also very manageable in play time.  What I don't care for is the scale.  I don't want something with 1000's of counters but I also don't want 10 units total for both the Germans and Soviets on the East Front. HW in Third Reich scale would be ideal and I've actually tinkered with coming up with something along those lines.  Maybe I should invest the time to tweak that and design the product myself?

I'm glad you mention this one. While I have affinity for Third Reich and the original World in Flames, Hitler's War is a game that I went back to again and again over the years. It was simple and easy to get into if you haven't played it in a while. I really liked that they incorporated research and development in it, as well.

I've thought numerous times of expanding the game's scope a bit so, as you said, there's not just 10 units for each side. Not too much bigger, though, but definitely add some dimensions to it. I never moved forward with it because I figured there's some other game out there probably that's doing that. But if not, maybe this is something we should work on, huh? ;)

GJK

Quote from: Banzai_Cat on November 17, 2014, 07:53:12 AM
I've thought numerous times of expanding the game's scope a bit so, as you said, there's not just 10 units for each side. Not too much bigger, though, but definitely add some dimensions to it. I never moved forward with it because I figured there's some other game out there probably that's doing that. But if not, maybe this is something we should work on, huh? ;)

I actually started working on that project some time ago.  HW is exactly 1/2 the scale of 3R.  So what I did was take the outline of the 3R map and adapted it for use with HW.  I have those graphics done and in a VASSAL module now.  The obviousl thing seems to be to just double everything and that's what I was working on when I got sidetracked.  I wanted more historical OOB's/unit containers and I was doing the research in to that.  If everything is doubled and there's not double the Armies to fill the roster, does the scale then go down to Corps level in order to have enough units?  That's what I was going with at the time and that's what I have in the VASSAL module.  I can make that available to you.  I'd love to get it to a stage where it could at least be playtested.  I think the OOB's was my hangup so I'd welcome any input in to that.
Clip your freaking corners!
----------------------
Blood Bowl on VASSAL - Ask me about it! http://garykrockover.com/BB/
----------------------
"Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son."

-Dean Vernon Wormer

BanzaiCat

Sure, I'd like to help however you'd like. I've got graphic design skills too just in case you want help in that regard.

Wasn't the original 3R's units Corps-level for the Axis and Army-level for the Commies?

And were the hex scales around 100 miles/hex?

Given the amount of real estate some units covered, an army per hex sounds about right. I'd suggest limiting the game to one Army-sized unit per hex to keep it simple. If you keep the original units as Army-level, allow breakdowns into Corps-sized units perhaps, to help cover large fronts? Limit the number of Corps-sized breakdowns based on nationality, though; the Germans would have the most. Corps-sized units would not be pushovers but wouldn't be able to 'hold' as many strength points as an Army-sized unit. Maybe you'd have modifiers based on the time period and the nationality (the Soviets would have limitations in their armies in 1941, for example). Axis allies like the Italians would only deploy Corps-sized units to reflect their combat 'footprint' on the board.

I dunno, just brainstorming here. Share with me whatever you have, if you'd like.

GJK

Yeah, that's good stuff.  I like the Army -> Corps breakdowns.  I was thinking simple: corps sized units but since those are 1/2 the scale of what HW uses, go with half the capabilities.  IOW, up to 5 SP's per attribute.  So we'd have twice the map in scale, twice the number of units but they would be half the strength of the full army.  I think the problem that I had was that once you get down to corps level, you have so many of them in the case of the Germans...do you include them all but restrict how many corps can be built?  That's stuff that playtesting is for of course. 

I'll get what I have out to you via a dropbox link when I get home later.
Clip your freaking corners!
----------------------
Blood Bowl on VASSAL - Ask me about it! http://garykrockover.com/BB/
----------------------
"Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son."

-Dean Vernon Wormer