Author Topic: Hostile 01: 8:55 am, August 12, 1940  (Read 584 times)

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Offline MengJiao

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Hostile 01: 8:55 am, August 12, 1940
« on: August 22, 2022, 02:42:12 PM »

  Historically, Fighter Command was very wary of this raid.  It looked like fighters by speed, but it was a little low and on a very odd course.  It was plotted as "X" -- unknown.  It was Eprobungsgruppe 210 -- twenty Me 110s
set to bomb 4 Chain Home radar sites.  Chain Home Low at Dover has just detected them and with that added plot and ahistorically (due in part to a "Sector Scramble") two
Spitfire Squadrons are in the air hunting for them.
Curiously, as far as I can tell, the Luftwaffe never bombed Chain Home Low radars.  They seem to have been less conspicuous than the Chain Home stations.
The game is The Burning Blue :



Offline MengJiao

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Re: Hostile 01: 8:55 am, August 12, 1940
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2022, 07:29:17 AM »

  Historically, Fighter Command was very wary of this raid.  It looked like fighters by speed, but it was a little low and on a very odd course.  It was plotted as "X" -- unknown.  It was Eprobungsgruppe 210 -- twenty Me 110s
set to bomb 4 Chain Home radar sites.  Chain Home Low at Dover has just detected them and with that added plot and ahistorically (due in part to a "Sector Scramble") two
Spitfire Squadrons are in the air hunting for them.
Curiously, as far as I can tell, the Luftwaffe never bombed Chain Home Low radars.  They seem to have been less conspicuous than the Chain Home stations.
The game is The Burning Blue :

  Hmm... so all 4 targets were bombed and a total of 8 bombing points scored -- though only 2 RDF Chain Home sites were knocked out (historically for six hours for 3 sites -- here for the rest of the day)
But never mind -- though Eprobungsgruppe 210 lost 3 Me 110s, they are going back to hit airbases.  Now it is very odd, historically, that the Me 110 proved to be an excellent fighterbomber and started the day before Eagle day with precision raids on the exact targets the Luftwaffe needed to hit -- RDF and airfields -- their success wasn't systematically followed up or, exploited or extended.
Possibly the fact that they were a non-elite, experimental unit full of average Joes meant that their results were discounted.  Or even more oddly that the Luftwaffe wanted Fighter Command to see
raids coming and be able to take off so they could be shot down...Hard to say.  Still, on the day before Eagle Day, the Luftwaffe started well and there are some more rather ambiguous raids to see about intercepting.

Offline ArizonaTank

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Re: Hostile 01: 8:55 am, August 12, 1940
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2022, 07:42:37 AM »
Great game. I have pretty much everything Lee Brimmicombe-Wood has designed. And like the others, this one does not disappoint.
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Offline MengJiao

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Re: Hostile 01: 8:55 am, August 12, 1940
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2022, 08:39:32 AM »
Great game. I have pretty much everything Lee Brimmicombe-Wood has designed. And like the others, this one does not disappoint.

  Yep.  Even the derivatives like Elusive Victory are pretty cool.  The Burning Blue is kind of amazing for how close the results are to the historical results -- even or especially at the
level of squadrons by the minute.

Offline MengJiao

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Re: Hostile 01: 8:55 am, August 12, 1940
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2022, 10:30:30 AM »
Great game. I have pretty much everything Lee Brimmicombe-Wood has designed. And like the others, this one does not disappoint.

  Yep.  Even the derivatives like Elusive Victory are pretty cool.  The Burning Blue is kind of amazing for how close the results are to the historical results -- even or especially at the
level of squadrons by the minute.

  Nevertheless, meanwhile, back at the 12th of August 1940 -- three hours later, the big raid of the day leaves Luftflot 3 airspace and heads across the Channel.  The Chain Home RDF at Pevensey is out, but
the Chain Home Low at Truleigh picks up the raid at maximum range -- maybe because it is quite a big mass of aircraft: the 63 Ju 88s of KG51 led by Kommadore Dr. Fisser (yep...that guy from the Scooby-do episode?) and about 150 109s and 110s as top cover (where they stay historically a bit too long).  Fighter Command scrambles 5 squadrons from 3 sectors:




« Last Edit: August 23, 2022, 10:33:03 AM by MengJiao »

Offline JasonPratt

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Re: Hostile 01: 8:55 am, August 12, 1940
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2022, 11:20:34 AM »
63 Ju 88s of KG51 led by Kommadore Dr. Fisser (yep...that guy from the Scooby-do episode?) and about 150 109s and 110s as top cover (where they stay historically a bit too long).

Dang, that could ruin your whole week!

I love using the 110s in Lion vs Eagle (or vice versa I suppose), especially the experimental gruppe. But I rarely ever bother going after the radars: damaging them is very chancy, and they get repaired too fast, so I have to use big wings to try to get any effect early in a day -- and then I'm mostly tapped out for the rest of the day whether or not I succeeded! (Of course sometimes Boss Hoggoering just insists on making radars a high priority, so...)
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Offline MengJiao

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Re: Hostile 01: 8:55 am, August 12, 1940
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2022, 01:06:53 PM »
63 Ju 88s of KG51 led by Kommadore Dr. Fisser (yep...that guy from the Scooby-do episode?) and about 150 109s and 110s as top cover (where they stay historically a bit too long).

Dang, that could ruin your whole week!

I love using the 110s in Lion vs Eagle (or vice versa I suppose), especially the experimental gruppe. But I rarely ever bother going after the radars: damaging them is very chancy, and they get repaired too fast, so I have to use big wings to try to get any effect early in a day -- and then I'm mostly tapped out for the rest of the day whether or not I succeeded! (Of course sometimes Boss Hoggoering just insists on making radars a high priority, so...)

Apparently the Me 110s would have made good fighterbombers, but it wasn't a popular thing for some reason.
Meanwhile -- though historically Dr. Fisser was killed in this raid -- in this alternative universe he survived and so did Chain Home Ventnor.  Clouds I guess.  total losses so far: 3 in fighter command
4 Lf fighters 4 Lf bombers two RDF Chain Home and big hits on Portsmouth.  I think the clouds made things rough around the Isle of Wight.

Offline JasonPratt

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Re: Hostile 01: 8:55 am, August 12, 1940
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2022, 01:24:54 PM »
For what it's worth, everyone in my (admittedly very limited) experience playing Il-2, much prefers the Me 110 for ground attack / close air support, compared to the Stuka. (Some people play the Stuka anyway because, duh, STUKA, but it's more for affection than practicality.)

Come to think of it, in my current multiplayer Panzer Corps (I) matches, I always buy Me 110s rather than Stukas, if I can.  :bd:
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in chronological order. Lots and lots of order...

Dawn of Armageddon -- a narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse: The Hunt Begins: Insert Joke Here!

Survive Harder! In the grim darkness of the bowl there is only, um, Amazons. And tentacles and midgets. Not remotely what you're thinking! ...okay, maybe a little remotely.

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Offline MengJiao

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Re: Hostile 01: 8:55 am, August 12, 1940
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2022, 05:41:07 PM »
For what it's worth, everyone in my (admittedly very limited) experience playing Il-2, much prefers the Me 110 for ground attack / close air support, compared to the Stuka. (Some people play the Stuka anyway because, duh, STUKA, but it's more for affection than practicality.)

Come to think of it, in my current multiplayer Panzer Corps (I) matches, I always buy Me 110s rather than Stukas, if I can.  :bd:

  Well, on the 12th of August 1940, the Me110s tried another experiment -- with Dornier 17s as similar low-level attack planes on Manston early in the afternoon.
  Manston was not a Fighter Command airfield, but fighter squadrons did stage through it.  In this alternative universe, Eprosbunggruppe 210 gets spotted right away by half a dozen
 Chain Home  and Chain Home low RDF installations, though if the raid makes landfall west of Dover, it will be off the radar and onto the observer corps, but that might not matter
since the first detections are very detailed -- Fighter Command knows for sure it is mostly bombers (about 40) at angels 12 -- an ideal target.
  In any case, 5 squadrons scramble:

« Last Edit: August 23, 2022, 06:40:43 PM by MengJiao »

Offline MengJiao

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Re: Hostile 01: 8:55 am, August 12, 1940
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2022, 01:16:34 PM »
For what it's worth, everyone in my (admittedly very limited) experience playing Il-2, much prefers the Me 110 for ground attack / close air support, compared to the Stuka. (Some people play the Stuka anyway because, duh, STUKA, but it's more for affection than practicality.)

Come to think of it, in my current multiplayer Panzer Corps (I) matches, I always buy Me 110s rather than Stukas, if I can.  :bd:

  Well, on the 12th of August 1940, the Me110s tried another experiment -- with Dornier 17s as similar low-level attack planes on Manston early in the afternoon.
  Manston was not a Fighter Command airfield, but fighter squadrons did stage through it.  In this alternative universe, Eprosbunggruppe 210 gets spotted right away by half a dozen
 Chain Home  and Chain Home low RDF installations, though if the raid makes landfall west of Dover, it will be off the radar and onto the observer corps, but that might not matter
since the first detections are very detailed -- Fighter Command knows for sure it is mostly bombers (about 40) at angels 12 -- an ideal target.
  In any case, 5 squadrons scramble:

  And -- right on time that sneaky turn to the north once inland...Manston will get bombed and only two squadrons will intercept...bizarly historical!:

 

Offline MengJiao

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Re: Hostile 01: 8:55 am, August 12, 1940
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2022, 11:01:59 AM »
For what it's worth, everyone in my (admittedly very limited) experience playing Il-2, much prefers the Me 110 for ground attack / close air support, compared to the Stuka. (Some people play the Stuka anyway because, duh, STUKA, but it's more for affection than practicality.)

Come to think of it, in my current multiplayer Panzer Corps (I) matches, I always buy Me 110s rather than Stukas, if I can.  :bd:

  Well, on the 12th of August 1940, the Me110s tried another experiment -- with Dornier 17s as similar low-level attack planes on Manston early in the afternoon.
  Manston was not a Fighter Command airfield, but fighter squadrons did stage through it.  In this alternative universe, Eprosbunggruppe 210 gets spotted right away by half a dozen
 Chain Home  and Chain Home low RDF installations, though if the raid makes landfall west of Dover, it will be off the radar and onto the observer corps, but that might not matter
since the first detections are very detailed -- Fighter Command knows for sure it is mostly bombers (about 40) at angels 12 -- an ideal target.
  In any case, 5 squadrons scramble:

  And -- right on time that sneaky turn to the north once inland...Manston will get bombed and only two squadrons will intercept...bizarly historical!:


  Manston gets bombed -- 4 Doniers down.  Next Eprobungsgruppe 210's last raid of the 12th...target Hawkinge, while He 111s hit Lympne and a gruppe of 109s is on free hunt.  Seven Squadrons scramble or are on patrol:


« Last Edit: August 25, 2022, 11:09:47 AM by MengJiao »

Offline MengJiao

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Re: Hostile 01: 8:55 am, August 12, 1940
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2022, 01:01:14 PM »
For what it's worth, everyone in my (admittedly very limited) experience playing Il-2, much prefers the Me 110 for ground attack / close air support, compared to the Stuka. (Some people play the Stuka anyway because, duh, STUKA, but it's more for affection than practicality.)

Come to think of it, in my current multiplayer Panzer Corps (I) matches, I always buy Me 110s rather than Stukas, if I can.  :bd:

  Well, on the 12th of August 1940, the Me110s tried another experiment -- with Dornier 17s as similar low-level attack planes on Manston early in the afternoon.
  Manston was not a Fighter Command airfield, but fighter squadrons did stage through it.  In this alternative universe, Eprosbunggruppe 210 gets spotted right away by half a dozen
 Chain Home  and Chain Home low RDF installations, though if the raid makes landfall west of Dover, it will be off the radar and onto the observer corps, but that might not matter
since the first detections are very detailed -- Fighter Command knows for sure it is mostly bombers (about 40) at angels 12 -- an ideal target.
  In any case, 5 squadrons scramble:

  And -- right on time that sneaky turn to the north once inland...Manston will get bombed and only two squadrons will intercept...bizarly historical!:


  Manston gets bombed -- 4 Doniers down.  Next Eprobungsgruppe 210's last raid of the 12th...target Hawkinge, while He 111s hit Lympne and a gruppe of 109s is on free hunt.  Seven Squadrons scramble or are on patrol:

   Kind of anticlimactic:  Luftwaffe lost 8 bombers, 8 me110s and 2 109s...RAF lost 4 fighters (seems kind of low, but then they had somewhat more info on the raids than their historical
counterparts).  I blame the clouds over the Isle of Wight.
   Historically, Ventnor RDF was out for 3 days (though a mobile station made it look functional) and three other Chain Home RDFs were out for 3-6 hours and no
Chain Home Low sites were hit (or even ever targetted).
   Historically the Luftwaffe assessed the damage as three airfields knocked out (they were basically okay after minor repairs) and 70 RAF fighters shot down
(really 20 verus Luftwaffe losses of close to what happened in this run or around 20 planes lost on each side)