Second Front (in Development)

[Axeking240]

Dev notes #3 is out now!

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1148490/view/3379415101028105937

More pages from the manual and progress on the game. Getting closer!

[Thomas Davie]

The reality is that creating a map by hand will give much better results with less effort. And a map generator without a scenario generator will leave most people unhappy because what they really would want is random scenarios...

I know I am not going to get what I want in the release version, and perhaps not even with DLC's. But that *is* what I want. A random map, a selection of random forces pulled from the OOB's and an encounter scenario with easily defined victory terms/conditions. Which I can play over and over and over and ..... (you get the idea). Sure. the bar could be set a lot higher (user  selectable toggles for various parameters).

Respectfully, don't be ridiculous in that people just would accept a map generator with no scenario, or even want that. Of course everyone means a scenario of some kind to go along with the random map. I would claim that given the acceptance of random maps, players would also accept a random scenario (and yes, random quality ranging from garbage to not bad; hopefully brilliant once every 1000 generations).

Otherwise, the system is what I have been waiting for since 1977.

Tom

[ArizonaTank]

Just to give an idea of how complex just map making is, here are some of the things to consider:
Map size - from 12x12 up to 50x50 (big maps would be harder to use)
Approx numbers of current versio:
- Elevations - there are 6 for ground, plus you could have a tall building on top so possible range is +9 to -1 (and -1 could be water, ocean or ground)
- Terrain types - currently around 15
- Two kinds of roads - dirt or paved
- streams and trails
- 7 kinds of bridges (and they are parts that can be put together to effectively make a bridge of any length)
- train tracks - multiple parts to lay rails in almost any pattern you can think of
- buildings - over 100 (probably getting close to 150), and many of these are parts that can be put together to make larger buildings
- and decorations and facades - over 160. These can be placed in a lot of different ways, with as many as 5 in a hex being reasonable in some cases.

A large number of the buildings and other items can also be placed in a rubbled state. And note most  of this stuff comes in a summer and winter version. Quite a few of them come in "random" placements too - you can click in a hex to place some trees, click again to get a different arrangements, and repeat until you get a result you like...

So its not just placing terrain - its adding the buildings, road, decorations, etc that makes it very complex to get good looking (and playable!) maps done randomly.

Truley a massively complex thing to do based on some random generation, requiring a huge effort.

And then, even if this is done, all you have is a map - no scenario to play on it... that must still be created.


The reality is that creating a map by hand will give much better results with less effort. And a map generator without a scenario generator will leave most people unhappy because what they really would want is random scenarios...

Amazing how hard you guys are fighting this....  ;)  What you just described can be done...and in fact has been done (in days long gone and with some variation)... 

Random hex maps, with multiple levels, roads, train tracks, streams etc. and random scenarios to go with them used to be a common feature...in games long past. 

And yes, random scenarios on the random maps. With randomly generated forces and setups.

As you said in your earlier post, it can be done, but it takes effort. The only question is where is the priority for the market?

Please, oh please... if there are any questions about what a good random scenario generator looks like for WWII tactical combat...get a copy of Combat Mission Afrika Korps. Sure hand made maps are better. But the random ones are pretty damn good, and they are generated very quickly (note the CMAK maps are grid based, but the issues are similar).

Try it. It is on sale at GOG now for less than the price of a good cup of coffee.
https://www.gog.com/en/game/combat_mission_afrika_korps

If you do try it...just pick a quick battle and follow the prompts.

A few more examples of random maps with WWII tactical would be: Steel Panthers and John Tiller's Campaign Series...the old one, not the WDS ones. Both of these games are still available from Matrix.

And you want to talk size? 

JTs 'Campaign Series' is squad based. But by example, the Eastern Front game allows you to set up random Corps level scenarios with random maps, organizations and deployment at the squad level on random maps 180 x 80 hexes. It is on sale now at Matix for $9. It is a great example of what I am talking about.

https://www.matrixgames.com/game/john-tillers-campaign-series

[Axeking240]

Respectfully, don't be ridiculous in that people just would accept a map generator with no scenario, or even want that. Of course everyone means a scenario of some kind to go along with the random map. I would claim that given the acceptance of random maps, players would also accept a random scenario (and yes, random quality ranging from garbage to not bad; hopefully brilliant once every 1000 generations).

Just go look back over the posts here- I've asked several times, and several people say they want just a map generator...

Including you - "No, as I've stated before, I will gladly take random maps before other sorts of expansions. "

And ArizonaTank - "Definitely talking about randomly generated maps. "

Reality is, that it will take both tools; and then next will be the demand for random campaign generation. Sure it would be cool - but I don't think that will ever happen.

The other two - may or may not happen in one way or another.  But I wouldn't put off getting the game to wait for that because the built in editors are so good. ;)

[Axeking240]

Also, remeber when you are comparing to Campaign series, you really need to compare SF to East Front (the original 1997 release). By the time it became campaign series, a further 10 years of development had been put into it.

I don't know how many were involved in the development of it, but SF has just one guy doing all the coding... If it is as successful as the early talonsoft versions were, I can see a lot more development being put into it - and these kinds of things become viable. And with another 10 years of development time, it can easily be done in a way that works well.

But I doubt anyone wants to wait another 10 years for SF ;-)

I'm just hoping for now that it does well enough to make it worth expanding the theatres and forces covered :-)

At present, the best I can say is to wait for it to come out and give the editors a try - they will both impress you with their capabilities, and more sales = more chance that further development is feasable :-)

[Thomas Davie]

I'll buy the game, but will pass on the editors. just not. interested

Tom

[Jo B]

nough said :-)

[JasonPratt]

  Raspy!

[Sir Slash]

Damn! That's a lot of factory to clear! Better send-in the Rumanians first.  O0

[Jo B]

AAR-Hills and Forest by Daffy

I played "Hills and Forest" from the 'Play' list. It's an interesting situation. Achieved a turn 8 victory with 145 points. The map was very interesting and challenging. The major feature a high ridge that ran north-south through the center of the map. A stream cut through the ridge near the north edge, which provided the only route (one hex wide) between the east and west for vehicle movement. The ridge had a flat top which was open terrain, but the slopes were basically tree covered. The Americans (player) start and are reinforced on the SW corner of the map. The Germans (AI) defend a town in the SE corner and receive reinforcements there as well.

The initial recon of the map showed me that there were a lot of very tricky LOS situations with all the different levels in play. I also knew that there was a hidden Pak 40 out there and figured that it was guarding the bowling ally next to the stream and would devour the meager American mechanized forces with glee (I was wrong about that). One specific hex caught my eye. The first German reinforcements were scheduled for turn 3 on the south edge. The road was screened by a high cliff, but there was an open terrain hex near the entry point. I counted out the movement between my nearest bazooka squad and, with a leader, I could make it there before the Germans entered (sleazy move, but its war ... games). Then I started checking LOS form German positions and realized that the four occupied positions in the town could all see this hex. I planned to avoid that area like the plague.

So, the plan of attack. There was only one VP building tucked into the SE corner of the map with a one hex buffer from the edge on the east and south side (imo, not a good design feature using the board edge to guard flanks). Since there was only one path for the vehicles, I decided to unload the mech infantry and use the tracks as scouts to search for the ATG while the TDs, mortar track, AA track, and the tank stayed a safe distance away. The infantry would go over the ridge and enter the town from the west.

On turn one, I sent the infantry up the ridge not quite reaching the top and the tanks toward the gap. Surprisingly, the AI moved to meet me on the ridge, getting to the top before me. My response was to throw some bullet catchers, errr, point squads out to get the AI to break concealment and then overwhelm the defenders, which is what happened (lost a half squad and had two broken units, AI lost 4 squads and a leader). This situation was repeated in turns 3 and 4 as I crested the ridge and started down the slope toward the town. In the meantime, my recon of the northeast corner of the map started in earnest on turn 2 when I sent a track down the Death Valley bowling alley, and nothing happened. So, I moved my armor into the gap and sent two tracks off to catch 75mm AP shells. On turn 3, the ATG opened up and missed the track they targeted. There were only 5 hexes that the still hidden gun could be in and I was already adjacent to 4 of them with the lucky track. I moved the other track up to option 5 and nothing, the gun was still hidden. The Pak 40 blew up the track in its turn (still hidden). So, next turn, I moved a squad and a half (the one I used to draw fire on turn 2) toward the area, and found the HIP gun (adjacent to the now dead track), moved adjacent with the half squad, they fired and missed, moved up the other squad, did an ineffective move and fire, went in for a melee and managed to kill everybody, the crew, and my squad and a half. At least the gun was done. So, turn 5 was spent rushing the town. In the exchange of fire in the two player turns, (in order of death) the Tiger killed a track, an M-36 killed the Pz IV, the Tiger killed the Hellcat, an M-36 killed the Tiger. Turn 6 saw the collapse of the German defense and turns 7 and 8 were the mop-up (kill the Stug, take the building, break the survivors and KIA/Capture them to pad the score).

As for the scenario, I believe this was a hypothetical situation as no location or description was included, although the date was given. The OB was interesting. It looked like the American armory officer forgot to lock the door to his warehouse and this bunch made off with everything they could lay their hands on. Lots of MMGs, HMGs, but the mortars, wow, lots of mortars. They were difficult to get into position, but once they started popping, the situation turned very bad for the Germans. There was one surprising item in the American arsenal. It appears that the Johnson M1941 LMG use to be in SF as there were two of these rather rare items stolen from the arsenal and used here. Overall, this was a good experience in a tough, and bloody fight. But the real winner of the scenario was the LOS tool. Had I not used that tool VERY liberally, the AI would have made mincemeat of my forces with its ability to exploit every angle.

[Jo B]

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1148490/allnews/
Second Front Developer News #4
we will have a release date to announce in the next Developer News #5  in 2 weeks from now!

[bobarossa]

Wonderful news!  <:-)  As long as it's in 2023 

[JasonPratt]

"Nwo for the godo news! Relaese date will be 2032!"  >:D

[Sir Slash]

Finally! A reason to get all my 'Old Man' vaccinations up to date.  O0

[Gusington]

A little digital birdie has notified me of a January 31, 2023 release date!