[Dominions 5] Grogs4way (in progress)

[TheMeInTeam]

Reminder about timing:

- 3 way end NAP agreement on turn 48
- Hostile orders allowed turn 53
- Actual combat allowed turn 54

[W8taminute]

Marco Polo Bridge Incident

On July 7, 1937 a sneaking Xibalban army was caught trespassing on Tien Chi lands.  Local forces discovered the sneaking marauders but were unable to stop the incursion.  Our forces fought bravely and the province was lost. 

The emperor of Tien Chi has decreed an immediate counter attack be launched and an example be made of the intruders.  Below news reaches the district commanders troops who gleefully welcome the opportunity to exercise their might.

[solops]

What a boisterous crew! Oddly, Agartha also intercepted an army of 40 Xibalban infiltrators as well. We were able to route them, but the leader got away. A reply is being drafted.

[TheMeInTeam]

I was trying to sneak into position, and was caught.  A few things to note:

- Sneaking is not a hostile action, while issuing an attack order is a hostile action.
- If being caught sneaking is a valid reason to end a NAP, the nation of Xibalba has endured numerous transgressions, including an attack on its forces during the war with Shinuyama with numbers equal to this incident.
- Territory was offered in exchange for war on Agartha, but was not returned when this deal was reneged.
- Given the decree issued above, Xibalba moves to defend itself against open hostility!

Good luck all.

[solops]

Hostile the orders on 53, here we go.

[W8taminute]

I was trying to sneak into position, and was caught.  A few things to note:

- Sneaking is not a hostile action, while issuing an attack order is a hostile action.
- If being caught sneaking is a valid reason to end a NAP, the nation of Xibalba has endured numerous transgressions, including an attack on its forces during the war with Shinuyama with numbers equal to this incident.
- Territory was offered in exchange for war on Agartha, but was not returned when this deal was reneged.
- Given the decree issued above, Xibalba moves to defend itself against open hostility!

Good luck all.

Yes you are correct.  Being caught sneaking is indeed not a valid reason to end an NAP.  I was careful not to send forces into lands that were not mine. 

However in light of my defenses losing their province to a legitimate sneak before general hostilities broke out I viewed a counterattack against what was rightfully Tien Chi's to be valid.  After all if the intent of the sneak is to just position forces prior to war breaking out then land that is lost to the victim due to a sneak intercept can and should be retaken which doesn't necessarily mean a declaration of war needs to be made.  As long as the attack is limited to regaining lost territory. 

Sneaking forces in preparation for a surprise attack linked to formal declaration of war usually does not intend to take land before the war breaks out. 

Too bad my counterattack got crushed!  LOL

In any case war now begins as the worlds military forces issue their attack orders for the following turn. 

[TheMeInTeam]

Don't get me wrong, I feel no ill will.  Just keeping up the role play arguing from the perspective of my nation haha.

[W8taminute]

^I know what you mean.  I figured you were role playing but I figured I'd also help form some house rules for our next game.  Dominions is a tough teacher but she is addictive.   ;D

[solops]

I think this game is pretty much over, but will keep playing if Xib and TC want to.

[TheMeInTeam]

I do have a pretty significant lead after that throne battle, it will take time to consolidate after those losses so I can do some damage...though that's still gated by not being able to ignore Tien Chi either (this has been a bona fide 2v1 rather than a FFA, best I can tell).

I don't have the forces to win quickly.  Absent straight up game throwing by opposition (like not contesting armies at all) I'd not expect to win in the next ~5-6 turns, because I need at least two thrones and all of them are guarded by forts.  If you want to give up I'd understand, but I think everyone remaining in this game could benefit from some more practical combat experience against other players.  Plus path boosting/site searching practice, if you're behind on it.  I know you have a rainbow pretender for example, see if you can throw me off a few times by mixing in some non-earth magic for battles.

[W8taminute]

I wouldn't mind playing a couple more turns of this game.  From my vantage point it looks like the game is not over yet but keep in mind I don't have spies near the throne areas. 

I'd like to try a few more battles with Xib and I'm also planning on taking some of Agartha's lands too if I can.  Want to test my strategy against those Agarthan hordes.  At this point I'm not worried about who will win but rather getting some practice in with live opponents.

Let me know if you all truly want to quit now.  We can make plans for another game.   ;)

[TheMeInTeam]

I prefer to continue and fight for now, but I'm open to beginning a new game concurrently as well. 

I think Solops feels the game over because he lost his entire stack that was attempting to take the throne and win.  t57 was very big for the outlook of the game, since if he won the game was over (simple throne claim --> win for Agartha).  I managed to inflict ~900 casualties on that turn though.  I didn't take many casualties in the two big fights, so I'm pressuring multiple forts right now and doing some raiding.  I don't think it's impossible for a comeback but it would be a lot harder than previously.

That said, I'm quite some time from being capable of claiming multiple thrones.  That implies going deep into Agartha's core territory or breaking the ~500 Tien Chi troops guarding our border throne while *also* capturing the fort he claimed off Shinuyama.  I plan to fight and do this, but don't think it's realistic to expect it in 5 turns or so.  So there should still be time for some real fighting.

[solops]

Okay, charge! Re Agartha hordes - sorry to disappoint. There aren't any anymore.  Your testbed will probably not materialize as you expect. I certainly cannot protect myself from Xib in a meaningful manner. I do have a question for Xib- do vampires fatigue when spellcasting?

[solops]

Additional - Agartha has a great weakness in the expense and time it takes to build supported armies. I foolishly threw away my only two significant forces in a pair of well planned battles set up by Xib. I do not have the time or resources to create significant forces, particularly with both of you nibbling on my carcass. I may be able to spring a surprise or two, but that is a maybe. I have no counter to Xib's current force mix that I have a realistic chance of creating. And my R&D cannot help me as I have no way to implement new techs. I was particularly unfortunate in my mineral assets in critical areas. That made my battle losses extra egregious and difficult to replace. All that said, I am willing to continue. There are things to learn, however unpleasant the process may be.

[TheMeInTeam]

Okay, charge! Re Agartha hordes - sorry to disappoint. There aren't any anymore.  Your testbed will probably not materialize as you expect. I certainly cannot protect myself from Xib in a meaningful manner. I do have a question for Xib- do vampires fatigue when spellcasting?

You can produce new units.  I will obviously be trying to limit this though.

Vampires do fatigue when spellcasting, yes.  They are immune to rigor mortis but otherwise endure fatigue.  I've done a few things to improve their fatigue consumption though:

- If you are higher path in magic than required, you get a fatigue discount.  Vampires are D3 by default, so already get a discount on skeletons.
- In addition to skull staff, I put some reinvig items on some of the vampires, which means both discount and faster fatigue reduction.  These can keep the skeleton train going indefinitely unless something interrupts it or the battle times out.
- Finally, the soul vortex spell damages surrounding targets and heals both HP and fatigue of the caster.  So stuff near the vampire (or any death mage) can function as a battery for them.  I haven't set it up this game, but it is possible to soul vortex units with their own natural regen set to guard commander. 

Note that even w/o vampires, high level death is always obnoxious to fight against.  Lichcraft for example creates a d4 mage for 30 gems, and liches have the same immortality that vampires get.  Lich holding a skull staff can cast every meaningful combat death spell other than undead mastery.  Vampires can cast nearly everything that way too, though sometimes need extra gems.  But vampires get blood magic so they can sabbath into even top tier stuff or cast blood magic instead.

If you haven't site searched off-paths by now it would be pretty hard to handle the magic I have available, which is pretty much everything other than level 8/9 spells and astral stuff soon-ish (also some delay on fire, but I get 8 fire gems/month).  I'm searching astral, but having none natively means that will mostly be confined to some forging or maybe making a couple golems if I get the right kind of summoned death mage with astral/earth to boost.  If you take a pretender with wide paths you should definitely use it to break into those paths and produce mages that can cast buffs/evocations in them.  I sacrificed that for top-tier scales, which means my bless was weak.  My pretender is an imprisoned demilich with d4 b4, which is pretty useless aside from being cheap scales + making the vampires, but those two things are valuable enough since Xibalba has pretty good magic path coverage and boosting options natively.