I have been interested in picking up Wargame: European Escalation from Steam and wanted to know what you guys suggest for companion WWIII reading.
I haven't read any similar fiction since college but when I did it included some Larry Bond and similar authors. I am assuming a lot of good stuff has been released in the last 20 years. I know a lot of people like Team Yankee too...got my eye on this. What else do you suggest?
Thanks all.
Ralph Peters' Red Army (http://www.amazon.com/Red-Army-Ralph-Peters/dp/0671676695/ref=tmm_mmp_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1342663556&sr=1-5) comes to mind, though it's become a bit dated, as has Team Yankee. The latter's author, Harold Coyle, has some other novels out, my favorite being The Ten Thousand (http://www.amazon.com/The-TEN-THOUSAND-Harold-Coyle/dp/0671885650/ref=tmm_mmp_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1342663416&sr=1-3), that deal with military conflict in Europe in the post USSR period.
There was a book written in the 80's by a British general. Hackett, I think. And I believe the title was Third World War.
^I forgot all about that one! It was more of a fictional chronicle of WWWIII that a novel but it's a great read, sort of like reading an AAR.
i found red storm rising good for wetting the appetite for NWAC
Quote from: undercovergeek on July 19, 2012, 05:06:32 AM
i found red storm rising good for wetting the appetite for NWAC
+1 Great read - one of my favorites.
Cauldron by Larry Bond is also quite good. Casting France as the bad guy is an interesting switch.
Hackett had two: The Third World War and the Third World War, the Untold Story
Team Yankee was a standalone from Coyle that was also adapted to a comic (and then collected into a graphic novel) back in the late 80s.
Coyle's later books: Bright Star, The Ten Thousand, God's Children, Code of Honor, Trial by Fire, Sword Point, etc follow a lot of the same characters through their military careers. You can read them all as a standalone, but if you read them in the order he wrote them (and I'm too lazy to look it up right now) then you follow Scott Dixon from being a major up through a retired general when his son comes on the scene. LT Nancy Kozak shows up in Trial by Fire as a platoon leader and ends up as a LTC in later books. He's written some since then and I'm not 100% sure he's using the same characters but I think so.
Clancy did the same thing with Jack Ryan, but the one WWIII novel (Red Storm Rising) was the one that didn't feature his usual cast of characters.
Now, if we can get LB on the job, we could get Amazon links for the GH affiliate relationship put in here for all those books.
The Hackett books are interesting, but a little on the dry side. I think Red Storm Rising is still the best of the bunch. I reread it every few years.
The War that Never Was by Michael A. Palmer is probably my faovroite WWIII novel. Not a traditional novel but more a chronical in the vein of Hackett's books, but I found this one far more interesting as it focuses solely on the military aspect at the operational level as oposed to Hackett's books which dealt with a lot of grand strategy and geopolitics. Lots of fodder for wargames in this book too because much of the focus is on peripheral campaigns in places like Norway and Turkey that lend themselves a little better to interesting and balanced scenarios.
Thanks guys. I have actually read those WWIII books by Hacket and I read Cauldron by Bond. I think I can still remember a scene from Cauldron where tactical nukes are used to sink an aircraft carrier. At 16 that scene blew my mind! The War That Never Was and The Ten Thousand sound cool, going to look those up. Keep'em coming!
Gus,
I wouldn't read The Ten Thousand without reading Sword Point and Bright Star first. And if Trial by Fire or Code of Honor come in the sequence, I'd read those, too. The sequence isn't terribly important b/c the stories don't truly build on each other, but it'll be easier to keep the characters in sequence.
Also note that The Ten Thousand is NOT a NATO-WarPac novel. It's a US division fighting their way from Ukraine/Poland across Germany to Bremerhaven against the Germans, with a couple of Russians in tow.
^Cool thanks. I read the description, I like the sound of The Ten Thousand.
Also - I am going to poke around and see if there are any newer titles about a Third World War on other fronts, check out speculative fiction and non-fiction too. If anyone has any info on those areas please post!
I know this kind of borders on chintzy what-if books but I'm willing to take that risk as it's something I haven't explored in a long time. I think the war in Syria has sparked my interest as well as Wargame: European Escalation.
I'm interested in what events in Syria would have to come to for the larger powers (Turkey, Israel, Russia, China) to get more involved and even commit forces. The downing of that Turkish F4 could have been a real disaster in another era.
Quote from: Gusington on July 19, 2012, 09:06:08 AM
I know this kind of borders on chintzy what-if books but I'm willing to take that risk as it's something I haven't explored in a long time. I think the war in Syria has sparked my interest as well as Wargame: European Escalation.
I'm interested in what events in Syria would have to come to for the larger powers (Turkey, Israel, Russia, China) to get more involved and even commit forces. The downing of that Turkish F4 could have been a real disaster in another era.
Well, if the whole idea of how events can spiral out of control interests you than The Third World War by Humphrey Hawksley may scratch your itch. It's basically about conflict between India and Pakistan spiraling out of control into nuclear Armageddon between the US, China, and Russia. I thought the book itself was pretty poorly written and many of the events unrealistic and unbelievable, though, so read at your own risk.
^HA well I'll use your recommendation to steer clear of that one.
Other WW3 reading possibilities are The Zone series of books by James Rouch and the WWIII series by Ian Slater. I can't comment on how good they are as I have not read any of them yet.
http://www.author-management.com/author.htm
http://www.ian-slater.com/bibliography.php
Thanks Shelldrake!
Stay away from the Ian Slater books. I read them in high school...terrible.
In case y'all are seeking GH Amazon links for the recommended reading on the last page:
Ralph Peters Red Army: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1451636695/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1451636695&linkCode=as2&tag=grogheads-20
Coyle's The Ten Thousand: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0671718746/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0671718746&linkCode=as2&tag=grogheads-20
Red Storm Rising: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/042510107X/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=042510107X&linkCode=as2&tag=grogheads-20
Cauldron by Larry Bond: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0446600261/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0446600261&linkCode=as2&tag=grogheads-20
Hackett's The Third World War: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0425101924/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0425101924&linkCode=as2&tag=grogheads-20
Palmer's War that Never Was: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0918339286/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0918339286&linkCode=as2&tag=grogheads-20
That should be a good start on the genre :)
Dale Brown - Silver Tower is a good read. Soviets invade Iran to gain access to the Persian Gulf.
Charles Taylor - Show of Force was decent read. US and Soviet carrier battle group duel.
First Clash: Combat Close-Up In World War Three - haven't read it but it looks interesting for a vintage Fulda Gap 1985 scenario.
Quote from: eyebiter on July 19, 2012, 12:26:55 PM
First Clash: Combat Close-Up In World War Three - haven't read it but it looks interesting for a vintage Fulda Gap 1985 scenario.
This one is quite good. It started out as an official manual and details the first 48 hours of combat by a Canadian Mechanized Brigade. Good luck finding it though because it has been out of print for years. Fortunately my local library had a copy! :)
Yep, not a prayer of finding that one (http://www.amazon.com/First-clash-Combat-close-up-World/dp/0853687366) anytime soon... ;)
Quote from: Shelldrake on July 19, 2012, 12:51:07 PM
Quote from: eyebiter on July 19, 2012, 12:26:55 PM
First Clash: Combat Close-Up In World War Three - haven't read it but it looks interesting for a vintage Fulda Gap 1985 scenario.
This one is quite good. It started out as an official manual and details the first 48 hours of combat by a Canadian Mechanized Brigade. Good luck finding it though because it has been out of print for years. Fortunately my local library had a copy! :)
I read Macksey's, "Guderian:Panzer General".
Red Army is one of the best war novels I've ever read. I very, very highly recommend it. It is very emotional (or at least I thought it was).
I second the stay away from the Ian Slater books. Not good at all.
Is this the Red Army you are talking about?
http://www.amazon.com/Red-Army-Ralph-Peters/dp/1451636695/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1344655480&sr=8-2&keywords=Red+Army
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on July 19, 2012, 11:51:31 AM
Stay away from the Ian Slater books. I read them in high school...terrible.
I second that. I have done horrible things to myself largely to kill off whatever brain matter contains the Ian Slater content.
And no, they are not so good as to be bad.
That's the book, Gus. It tells the story from the WP point of view, but Peters does a great job of fleshing out the characters, their motivations and fears, and it is just an all around great book.
Can't really beat the price of .01 for a hardback copy. The release date says 2011...is that accurate?
Boy you ask a lot of questions. I got my copy back in 2009 or so; if your copy says 2011 it might be a reprint.
Red Army came out sometime in the '80s iirc.
Edit: looks like 1990.
I ask all my questions on a need to know basis, sir.
while not really fiction Id recomment Robet Shaws Air Combat.
any tactical guide that recommends using cluster bombs against helicopters is GTG.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on August 14, 2012, 12:13:43 AM
while not really fiction Id recomment Robet Shaws Air Combat.
any tactical guide that recommends using cluster bombs against helicopters is GTG.
Innovative. I like that 8)
Gus, if you end up reading The War That Never Was I'd enjoy yor feedback. Haven't run in to anyone else who has read it. Red Army was very good as well, the best by Ralph Peters IMO.
Sure thing. Perhaps I'll be able to write a review of it too.
So I broke out my copy of Ralph Peters' Red Army again.
Page 56 (first shots of the war just fired previous page, start of new chapter):
"Junior Lieutenant Plinnikov wiped at his nose with hs fingers and ordered his driver forward. The view through the vehicle commander's optics allowed no meaningful orientation. Rapid flashes dazzled in the periscope's lens, leaving a deep gray veil of smoke in their wake. The view was further disrupted by raindrops that found their way under the external cowl of the lens block. Plinnikov felt as though he were guiding his reconnaissance track through hell at the bottom of the sea.
The shudder of the powerful artillery bursts reached through the metal walls of the vehcile. Suddenly, the armor seemed hopelessly thin, the tracks too weak to hold, the automatic cannon little more than a toy. Occasionally, a tinny sprinkling of debris struck the vehicle, faintly audible through Plinnikov's headset and over the engine whine. He could feel the engine pulling, straining to move the tracks through the mud of the farm trail.
'Comrade Lieutenant, we're very close to the barrage,' his driver told him.
Plinnikov understood that the driver meant too close. But the lieutenant was determined to out perform every other reconnaissance platoon leader in the battalion, if not the entire Second Guards Tank Army.
'Keep moving,' Plinnikov commanded, 'just keep moving. Head straight through the smoke.'
....
'Keep going,' Plinnikov said. 'Get down into the low ground. Stay on the trail as long as the smoke holds. Fast now, move.'
Plinnikov sensed that they were very close to the enemy. Clots of earth and stone flew into the air, hurtling across his narrowed horizon. Plinnikov guessed that, if he moved off the trail, there might be mines, but that the trail itself would only be coverd by direct fires-which would be ineffective in the confusion of the Soviet artillery preparation.
'Lieutenant, we're catching up with the barrage. We're too close.'
'Keep going. We're already in it. Go right through.'
'Comrade Lieutenant...' It was Junior Sergeant Belonov, his gunner and assistant. The boy's face was milky.
'It's all right,' Plinnikov told him through the intercom. 'Just spot for targets. If we wait and try to sneak through, they'll get us for sure.'
An unidentified object thumped against the vehicle so hard that the vehicle jolted, as though in pain.
'Go faster,' Plinnikov shouted to the driver. 'Just stay on the road and go as fast as you can.'
'I can't see the road. I lose it.'
'Just go.' Plinnikov brushed his fingers at his nose. He felt fear rising in his belly and chest, unleashed by the impact of whatever had hit the vehicle.
Suddenly, the artillery blasts seemed to swamp them, shaking the vehicle like a boat on rough water. Plinnikov realized that if they threw a track now, they were dead.
'Go, damn you.'
In the thick smoke, the lights of the blasts seemed demonic, alive with deadly intentions.
'More to the left...to the left.'
The tracks seemed to buckle on the edge of a ditch or gully, threatening to peel away from the road wheels.
'Target,' Plinnikov screamed.
But the sudden black shape off to their right side was lifeless, its metal deformed by a direct hit. The driver swerved away, and the tracks came level, back on the trail again.
Plinnikov broke out in a sweat. He had not seen the shattered vehicle until they almost collided with it. He wondered, for the first time, if he had not done something irrecovably foolish.
Slop from a nearby impact smacked the external lens of Plinnikov's periscope, cracking it diagonally, just as the vehicle reached a pocket where the wind had thinned the smoke to transparent gauze. Several dark shapes moved out of the smoke on a converging axis.
'Targets. Gunner right. Driver, pull left now.'
But the enemy vehicles moved quickly away, either uninterested in or unaware of Plinnikov's presence. The huge armored vehicles disappeared back into the smoke, black metal monsters roaming over the floor of hell."
I may have to re-read it too. And then see if I can track down IronX's Squad battles mod for a nato-wp conflict. Someone must still have it.
I finished Red Army this afternoon. It's a pretty quick read. Really, really good book. I give it my highest recommendation.
It's different from RSR, but that's not a bad thing. It's definitely grittier.
have you ever tried Team Yankee?
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on September 27, 2012, 05:41:23 PM
have you ever tried Team Yankee?
Check out the first page of this very thread...
I've never been able to get through more than half of Team Yankee. I dunno....I just lose interest. Maybe I'll try one more time and just gut it out so I can at least finish it.
I've started it at least 3 times.
Some of David Poyer's novels are set in the 80s at sea. If naval warfare in the Cold War is of interest, his stories could be good.
He retired as a captain in the USN and based much of his work on his own experiences. Some of his novels are actually used at the naval academy.
my problem with reading 80's WW3 ficton now is the knowledge of the real world ass beating the Warsaw Pact would have taken across the board without the use of nukes.
QuoteOther WW3 reading possibilities are The Zone series of books by James Rouch
fun books when youre a kid. silly series now. its the ground version of the Wingman series.
I just found and started reading a trilogy of books by a guy named Adam Yoshida. The books are only available in Kindle. They are in the vein of The Third World War by John Hackett in that it focuses a lot on the political and economic causes and consequences of a modern world war combined with the operational and tactical narrative that you find in The War That Never Was. I've read the first book, Blast of War and am getting into the second one, A Land War in Asia. I've already bought the third book (they are only $3) and they are all pretty quick reads.
Basically the plot is that every potential hot spot (economic and military) in the world, from the EU debt crisis to the Mexican drug war to Iran goes worst case scenario over the next five years eventually resulting in a general war between the US and its allies and China and its allies. Yoshida definitely has some neo-con leanings so a big part of his plot in the first book is that President Obama is weakening America and destabilizing the world. He goes kind of overboard on this point but it fits with the rest of the plot of everything being worst case.
Anyway, he seems to have a relatively astute and nuanced understanding of international politics and he's done his homework on military equipment and capabilities though its obvious he's never actually been in the military or participated in a military operation. So far I've really enjoyed these reads; lot's of fodder for wargame scenarios (I like to try to turn these reads into SPMBT scenarios).
Gus, this may about what you were looking for when you started this thread?
^Does sound good and is pretty close to what I was looking for...but I don't own a Kindle :/
I could be wrong, but I think you can download the kindle reader for free onto any computer or iphone. I don't think you actually have to buy the device.
I do have a smart phone but to be honest I do not like reading or forum-ing on it, it is a device of last resort for those things. I am old and old-fashioned. I'm curious if the Kindle app can be used on a regular desktop like you said.
Quote from: Gusington on October 08, 2012, 03:41:51 PM
I do have a smart phone but to be honest I do not like reading or forum-ing on it, it is a device of last resort for those things. I am old and old-fashioned. I'm curious if the Kindle app can be used on a regular desktop like you said.
Here you go
http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/ref=kcp_pc_ln_ar?docId=1000426311
Good find on this new series....I'll likely be buying myself soon...thanks!
Thanks for the link OJ.
Just finished the trilogy by Adam Yoshida. The books were enjoyable and the arc of the plot was definitely believable if you accept the underlying premises. The books advance you through a four year war with China which sees the use of hundreds of nuclear weapons and conflict across the entire Eurasian landmass, massive casualties, shifting (and surprising) alliances. Yoshida doesn't neglect the economics or politics of the future conflict so the books aren't solely a homage to military technology around the world. Yoshida paints a believable (if not realistic) scenario where the war changes the face of the globe and advances (US) military technology from where it is now to spaceships launching kinetic strikes from orbit by 2021. He resorts to simplifying his narrative to a lot of massive battles with thousands of aircraft and missiles in the sky at once, much like many of the battles from the Honor Harrington series, but it didn't detract from the plot for me. The editing is horrible, lots of typos, but I get the impression these books were only released electronically based on Yoshida's blog posts, so at $3 a pop I guess you get what you pay for quality-wise. It didn't bother me.
Fair warning, Adam Yoshida is a self-described ultra-conservative, and much of his political commentary in this reflects. However, to be fair, the hero of his books is an ultra-conservative POTUS who moves the US dangerously close to fascism during the course of the conflict he describes and Yoshida doesn't shy away from the negative consequences of his world view for the US or the world.
Has anybody read this book?:
http://www.amazon.com/Chieftains-ebook/dp/B006ISI2DK/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=3M3QNNNCO06DN&coliid=I1S5LJS96VPDW3
Looks like a British Team Yankee. I'm probably going to get it on Kindle and check it out.
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on November 14, 2012, 10:16:48 AM
Has anybody read this book?:
http://www.amazon.com/Chieftains-ebook/dp/B006ISI2DK/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=3M3QNNNCO06DN&coliid=I1S5LJS96VPDW3
Looks like a British Team Yankee. I'm probably going to get it on Kindle and check it out.
I haven't, but I love what I see. Thanks for the tip.
Quote from: Shelldrake on July 19, 2012, 12:51:07 PM
Quote from: eyebiter on July 19, 2012, 12:26:55 PM
First Clash: Combat Close-Up In World War Three - haven't read it but it looks interesting for a vintage Fulda Gap 1985 scenario.
This one is quite good. It started out as an official manual and details the first 48 hours of combat by a Canadian Mechanized Brigade. Good luck finding it though because it has been out of print for years. Fortunately my local library had a copy! :)
Ha! I found that one in a local library about 25 years ago myself!! Kinda crazy, but it was a fun read, if pretty short on plot.
Thought I'd try to breathe some new life into this thread. I just finished a pretty good book called The Red Effect. A former British intelligence officer wrote this and published it this year. While other WWIII fiction tends to focus on the naval and air war (except Team Yankee and Red Army) this one focuses almost entirely on the ground war in Germany. The dialogue is kind of rough and the portrayal of the Soviet high leadership is kind of cartoonish but the closer the author gets to the soldiers on the front lines the better the writing is. It's told mostly from the perspective of British soldiers in northern Germany. I think it's meant to be the first in a series because the book only takes the story up to the first morning of the war. It's also the only WWIII book that I've read (other than Red Army) that doesn't portray the Soviets as mindlessly rushing into the guns of NATO tanks. Good read.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Red-Effect-Cold-ebook/dp/B00BWX7YUI/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1373297526&sr=1-1&keywords=red+effect
There's a lot of great recommendations here.
I wholeheartedly endorse Red Storm Rising and Red Army as well. The Ten Thousand was interesting take but not my favorite Coyle book. I never liked Team Yankee for some reason, but his other books are pretty decent.
One book that scared the absolute Christ out of me was War Day: http://www.amazon.com/Warday-Journey-Onward-Whitley-Strieber/dp/0030707315/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1375661045&sr=1-3
While a nuclear war and not a ground war, the detail in the author's description of everything falling apart, as well as his central Texas descriptions (I lived in San Antonio when I read it) made this a pretty terrifying book. Not so much now, of course, but still it's one of my favorites.
I was going to get a Coyle book for my Kindle, but see he only has one book for it currently. I'm going to get The Red Effect now, and I've also heard that Vaughn Heppner's Invasion series is pretty good too - http://www.amazon.com/Vaughn-Heppner/e/B0041OTNL8/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_1
I'm reading the first Invasion book right now. The story and characters are good but the military side of it is just too cartoonish and amateurish for me.
I saw that in more than a few of the reader's reviews, which has held me back from getting the first one for now. I can certainly appreciate a good story, but if it's military-based, the facts better be right.
I've bought more than a few novels like this that are just utterly terrible. Just about anyone can publish anything these days, unfortunately. Or fortunately, because there are some great minor authors out there too.
I just finished it. The military part reads more like an RTS game then any real connection to reality. I have to say though, the character development is pretty good and the overall strategic direction of the storyline is intriguing. It presents a future where China is more powerful and technologically advanced than the United States. I may pick up the next couple books just to see how the story goes but for now I'm going to stick to some more serious reading.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs16.postimg.org%2Fq00szhi9h%2Fambush_pew_pew_cat.jpg&hash=72b4bf2f950f9ae312d64b5d2f1a6b943428b8c9)
Thanks Windy, nothing gets my apocalyptic juices flowing like attack kittens ;D.
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on August 06, 2013, 09:32:43 PM
Thanks Windy, nothing gets my apocalyptic juices flowing like attack kittens ;D.
don't you just want to go out, kick ass and take names?
Kitten names.
Bring extra bubble gum so it won't come to kicking ass. Unless you want to run out of bubble gum.
Quote from: Windigo on August 06, 2013, 10:15:54 PMdon't you just want to go out, kick ass and take names?
I kick ass and take initials. I don't have time to stop for names.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on August 07, 2013, 07:43:23 AM
Quote from: Windigo on August 06, 2013, 10:15:54 PMdon't you just want to go out, kick ass and take names?
I kick ass and take initials. I don't have time to stop for names.
We infantry move a little slower than you tankers and have time to take the whole name. Especially a kitten name.
I did enjoy War Day quite a lot back in the day but I was far more disturbed my Natures End.
rat stew with tumors...... BLAAHHHK!