When STAVKA comes calling: Operational Problems

[MengJiao]

  I was just reading some of the interminable East-Front disasters in 1942 covered in the 2nd vol of Glantz Stalingrad OPUS, when I found the following tale:

   A Russian Army commander (of an Army, let's call him Vlad) had a surprise visit by Petrov (another Russian evidently) from STAVKA.  Petrov discovered that Vlad had no communications with 3/4 of his army (3 divisions -- is that too much to ask?).  Vlad only had some idea what was happening with the one division he could supervise directly.  Petrov reported this up the chain of command (in itself something of a coup for Administrative coherence) and Vlad was relieved of command.

   So, if the perfect operational game could be built and the new player brought in with some tutorial advice --one bit of it would be -- check and see if you have communications with the forces under your command -- BEFORE STAVKA shows up.

[GDS_Starfury]

the Russians won the Eastern Front because they were marginally less stupid then OKH.

marginally.  like a shaved pubic hairs width of difference.

[MengJiao]

the Russians won the Eastern Front because they were marginally less stupid then OKH.

marginally.  like a shaved pubic hairs width of difference.

   I was thinking of puzzling over the mechanics of an operational game that would represent that tiny margin in terms of the hour-by-hour actions of say a Soviet army commander.  Not having any idea of what was happening to 75% of your very small army (some Russian armies were really small as in 4 5000-man divisions, some artillery, a few telephones, a couple of radios, a few trucks) is something to be careful about.  Perhaps not as bad as OKH leaving three quarters of a million men to do very little on the wrong side of the Black Sea for months, but still not a good way to run an army.

   And then STAVKA shows up and fixes things.  I thought it was an interesting instance of an interesting dynamic.

[GDS_Starfury]

on the other side you would have messages from German command staffs asking to take action but then you cant issue orders or move your units because of hitler.

[MengJiao]

on the other side you would have messages from German command staffs asking to take action but then you cant issue orders or move your units because of hitler.

  Well to take the example of Army Group A spending a lot of time doing very little on the wrong side of the Black Sea after Stalingrad, operationally, Army Group A would just have a static mission and/or a gradual withdrawal to a bridgehead.  It's true you wouldn't be doing anything useful, but there wouldn't be much supervision from Hitler either.

[GDS_Starfury]

but the moment you tried to do something you would get a pop message from hitler telling you to hold in place.  ;)

[MengJiao]

but the moment you tried to do something you would get a pop message from hitler telling you to hold in place.  ;)

  To make that interesting, it would have to be an order through hot channels (there were also cold channels where you could ignore at least some hot channel orders).  so a pop-up would not have quite to operational flavor I'm thinking might be interesting.

  Moreover, if you were Army Group A, eventually you'd get an order to evacuate.  Or rather you'd be slowly drained of troops, but left with immense quantities of equipment and supply.

[BanzaiCat]

but the moment you tried to do something you would get a pop message from hitler telling you to hold in place.  ;)

A pop-up of him going, "Nein-nein-nein!" while wagging a figure, sort of like Wayne Knight's character from Jurassic Park did on the computer.

[besilarius]

Well, another mechanic that was supposedly used, would be a visit by NKVD goons and a 9ML gift from Unka Joe.
A lot quicker and to the point.

[MengJiao]

Well, another mechanic that was supposedly used, would be a visit by NKVD goons and a 9ML gift from Unka Joe.
A lot quicker and to the point.

  Exactly.  But to game this, you'd need something more elaborate than a pop-up that says: "Sir, you have been executed."

  Anyway, my interest is in the whole spectrum of operational choices and problems at say the Soviet army level in say mid-1942 to say mid-1944 (just to give some kind of context).  By mid-1942, you might get relieved of command pretty fast if STAVKA found you had no idea what was going on, but you probably won't be summarily executed just for being incompetent or unlucky.  One problem, as I see it, is doing all the administrative and political and delegatory work while still conducting operations of war.

[BanzaiCat]

So you're talking about some kind of in-game 'quiz' where you're in your HQ and then STAVKA knocks on the front door, then asks you pointed questions about your unit's dispositions...and you're presented a map with no hints or reference material and you have to correctly select the points on the map that the units are located, to keep your job? Or not get shot?

[MengJiao]

So you're talking about some kind of in-game 'quiz' where you're in your HQ and then STAVKA knocks on the front door, then asks you pointed questions about your unit's dispositions...and you're presented a map with no hints or reference material and you have to correctly select the points on the map that the units are located, to keep your job? Or not get shot?

What I was thinking of (with reference to the "Are there Operational games?" problem) is gaming the role of the Army commander (for example) as a role.  Presumably, keeping track of your forces would be almost routine most of the time and not necessarily something you would spend a lot of "action time" (your time to spend on various actions such as "review reconnaissance"/check intelligence and insist your staff map it properly/ request aerial recon/ check with signals intelligence (or get a staff officer to do this right) etc. etc. etc.) on as a rule.

  Of couse in the worst case, you lose track of 3/4 of your army and Petrov from STAVKA shows up and wonders where most of your army is.

[GDS_Starfury]

from a video game stand point the idea wouldnt fly at all.  Ive only ever seen this kind of thing modeled in training exercises for real military units where theres an umpire.

[MengJiao]

from a video game stand point the idea wouldnt fly at all.  Ive only ever seen this kind of thing modeled in training exercises for real military units where theres an umpire.

  Well, I'm just speculating on the problem of getting operational stuff to work in games.  You'd have to make it interesting of course, but the idea is that operational stuff is somewhat harder to simulate because the role of the player needs to be defined (I think).