37mm has released a Vietnam-esque" Super-mod for CMSF2 called Heaven & Earth. At the bottom of this post I attempted to link a U-Tube video. This super-mod practically turns CMSF 2 into another CM game family. It is still in Beta but is available for download, game play and feedback. It even features working riverine patrol craft. Very cool. I'm really looking forward to the final version.
Some of the content includes:
Four "Bong-Hai Civil War" Era Campaigns-
The 15 mission "Year of the Rat"
A 15 mission People's Militia concept campaign (The Special War).
A conversion of a 7 mission CMA campaign now dubbed Major Nguyens Command.
A 7 mission Urban "conversion" campaign.
Sixteen "Bong-Hai Civil War" Era scenarios
One Modern era Campaign- Battle of Quy Ly- 4 missions
Nine Modern Era scenarios.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cegG3ZbpFg
(https://i.imgur.com/lw0ot3fh.jpg)
This looks impressive. Have to install CMSF2 I suppose.
That looks very cool. River Gun Boats! :D
I just cannot see a Vietnam game being very interesting outside of first person. Especially considering a lot of the action was patrolling, ambushing and other asymmetric warfare like village clear and searches. Additionally combat mission does not have helicopter landings as far as I am aware. Maps are also too small in combat mission to make it feel like Vietnam.
Quote from: gregb41352 on March 27, 2021, 03:38:17 AM
This looks impressive. Have to install CMSF2 I suppose.
Yes, you need CMSF2. However IMO CMSF2 is well worth it. It is probably my favorite CM game. At least it was until Combat Mission Cold War. There are all kinds of user made scenarios for CMSF2 (most CMSF1 scenarios also work in 2). These free user made scenarios are set in many locations around the globe (one of the reasons CMCW will also be so much fun). So not only will you be able to play South East Asian scenarios with this mod but you will have access to many other scenarios set outside of Syria. In fact you will probably never get around to playing half of them. I know I haven't and I play often. There is everything from operation Neptune Spear (the raid to kill Bin Laden) to 3rd World Coup d'etats, hostage rescue/evacuations to scenarios set in Africa and other places. One designer is also working on a police mod for CMSF2. More content and newer content still being produced by the community.
(https://i.imgur.com/hHHUqnOh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/47ZVUZkh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ApRGHf5h.jpg)
Quote from: Destraex on March 28, 2021, 04:49:34 AM
I just cannot see a Vietnam game being very interesting outside of first person. Especially considering a lot of the action was patrolling, ambushing and other asymmetric warfare like village clear and searches. Additionally combat mission does not have helicopter landings as far as I am aware. Maps are also too small in combat mission to make it feel like Vietnam.
It is a mod pack for South East Asia that can have some similarities to Vietnam if the designer chooses. The free scenarios and campaigns that have been made for the mod feature many different types of combat. There is armor action, infantry, urban, jungle, rice paddies etc. The type of scenario is up to the scenario designer. So an infantry jungle "patrol" scenario can be created or a clash of two tank companies between two rival SE Asian countries. To include outside intervention from a superpower nation. With the editor almost any type of battle is possible. The mod changes the environment and some equipment (working river patrol craft, etc.) to a SE Asia setting. There are many, many interesting possibilities with this mod.
The mod is set in CMSF2 which was largely made with asymmetric warfare in mind. IEDs, VBIEDs, spies, combatants etc. CMSF2 is the perfect CM title for asymmetric warfare and probably one of the reasons it was chosen for the mod.
Depending on the scenario design some CM maps can be small. This is usually the case in a modern armor battle scenario on an open map. When the tanks can literally fire four kilometers from one map edge to the opposite map edge. But this is scenario design decision not a reflection on any mods.
In the above referred to, stereotypical jungle trail patrol, scenario a CM map is huge. With jungles, hills, swamps, scattered villages, little to no roads etc. Some would argue this is the perfect CM infantry type terrain. In many cases it would probably be a waste of time to build a 16 square kilometer map for such a scenario.
Although I think it would be a lot of fun having a 16 square Km map. Imagine a fire base with an infantry company assigned. The company would be responsible for the 16 Sq. Km. AO. Patrolling for insurgents, responding to protect the various villages while being careful of IEDs etc. Protecting the fire base from attack while keeping patrols and ambushes in the field. Or you can have an urban scenario similar to Hue. Or an armored border clash. The possibilities are many and I think interesting.
The helicopters shown in the screenshots are Flavor Objects and not functional. Helicopter operations can be simulated in the CM games. One example is the CMBS scenario Tactical Operations Center (TOC). Through the use of setup zones a player is given a choice of Landing Zones. He can use one or all or none (take vehicles / foot instead) of the LZs. This only works at the start of the scenario. Reinforcements and supplies can also appear in landing zones during a mission. Exit zones can be placed in the LZs to move troops / walking wounded / non-combatants out of an LZ. In fact I'm getting all kinds of interesting ideas for scenarios with this Mod as I type. ;D :D.
Below is an example of helicopter operations from CMBS scenario TOC. I wish I would have had helicopter Flavor Objects to place on the LZ. Troops are arriving as reinforcements. Others are leaving via an Exit Zone (green arrows). An example of simulated helicopter Ops in a CM title.
(https://i.imgur.com/Ok7N3XXh.jpg)
And a huge rice paddy map from a scenario in the mod. Based on a real world battle. Using the editor even bigger maps than this one are possible. This scenario also featured an airborne operation.
(https://i.imgur.com/nOFyk5eh.jpg)
A cool and interesting Mod. that a group of scenario designers and Moders spent their free time creating for us for free. :)
The mod shows how doable a Vietnam game in cm could be.
I have never modded a CM game and for some odd reason, I feel no compelling urge to do so...twisted.
It's doable, without the choppers swooping in 3D, but what does it mean? 300 turns before contact and then a blind bush fight?
A defend the firebase scenario? Or an Ambush scenario?
I think the Combat Mission engine only lends itself to conventional warfare. A strategic map is really needed to simulate vietnam properly. To chase the enemy around the strat map. Discover their bases. Vietnam was very much about strategic positioning of troops and mobile deployment of troops rather than set piece engagements.
I know this is simulating an encounter that is already setup, but I just think it would feel like a ww2 battle in hurtgen forest minus the heavy equipment. The enemy is going to stand and fight and you know it because it's CM.
"There is everything from operation Neptune Spear (the raid to kill Bin Laden) to 3rd World Coup d'etats, hostage rescue/evacuations to scenarios set in Africa and other places. One designer is also working on a police mod for CMSF2."
Where are such goodies to be found? The Battlefront website community forums? I poked around in there some and I couldn't find much.
Quote from: gregb41352 on March 29, 2021, 06:04:33 PM
"There is everything from operation Neptune Spear (the raid to kill Bin Laden) to 3rd World Coup d'etats, hostage rescue/evacuations to scenarios set in Africa and other places. One designer is also working on a police mod for CMSF2."
Where are such goodies to be found? The Battlefront website community forums? I poked around in there some and I couldn't find much.
Here you are: https://www.thefewgoodmen.com/cm-mod-warehouse/
There is also the scenario depot: https://www.thefewgoodmen.com/tsd3/
Here is the Heaven and Earth Mod https://community.battlefront.com/topic/138677-heaven-earth-the-peoples-beta/
Quote from: Destraex on March 28, 2021, 04:49:34 AM
I just cannot see a Vietnam game being very interesting outside of first person. Especially considering a lot of the action was patrolling, ambushing and other asymmetric warfare like village clear and searches. Additionally combat mission does not have helicopter landings as far as I am aware. Maps are also too small in combat mission to make it feel like Vietnam.
A cursory examination of the history of the war shows plenty of conventional force on force encounters of a scale suitable to CM.
Immediately coming to mind are Long Tan (Australian mech infantry assault on a rubber plantation), Lang Vei (NVA armour versus US special forces camp), Hue City (street fighting during TET), and many of the late war encounters between NVA and ARVN during the final invasions of the south 1973-75. Helicopters were just a way of getting to the battle - Combat Mission: Battle of Normandy has no parachute/glider landings or amphibious assaults, yet the first thing you think of when hearing "Normandy" is the D-Day landings. Didn't seem to trouble many people that none of that stuff was present in the game. In other words, helicopters are a red herring - the battles I just mentioned didn't involve them.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Battle_of_Long_Tan_18_August_1966.png)
Quote from: MOS:96B2P on March 28, 2021, 10:29:29 AM
In the above referred to, stereotypical jungle trail patrol, scenario a CM map is huge. With jungles, hills, swamps, scattered villages, little to no roads etc. Some would argue this is the perfect CM infantry type terrain. In many cases it would probably be a waste of time to build a 16 square kilometer map for such a scenario.
Vietnam had a large mix of terrain types - it wasn't just jungle. There was plenty of conventional woodland areas very similar to the European terrain depicted by the other CM titles.
QuoteThe helicopters shown in the screenshots are Flavor Objects and not functional. Helicopter operations can be simulated in the CM games. One example is the CMBS scenario Tactical Operations Center (TOC). Through the use of setup zones a player is given a choice of Landing Zones. He can use one or all or none (take vehicles / foot instead) of the LZs. This only works at the start of the scenario.
Not necessarily - you could have reinforcements "teleport" into different areas of the map throughout the game, to simulate helicopter landings. You couldn't simulate the effects of ground fire on the aircraft, nor prevent the landings by AA, etc., nor could you control where or when they "landed", but it isn't restricted to scenario start IIRC.
I imagine the reinforcement option could be used to simulate helicopter insertions.
Quote from: z1812 on March 30, 2021, 01:14:19 PM
I imagine the reinforcement option could be used to simulate helicopter insertions.
As noted above. But really, why bother? CM depicts short company or battalion size engagements. It's not like helicopters were actively redeploying maneuver elements in the course of a typical firefight or engagement.
Quote from: Michael Dorosh on March 30, 2021, 01:39:47 PM
Quote from: z1812 on March 30, 2021, 01:14:19 PM
I imagine the reinforcement option could be used to simulate helicopter insertions.
As noted above. But really, why bother? CM depicts short company or battalion size engagements. It's not like helicopters were actively redeploying maneuver elements in the course of a typical firefight or engagement.
Why bother? For purposes of campaign design.
Quote from: Michael Dorosh on March 30, 2021, 08:40:49 AM
Quote from: MOS:96B2P on March 28, 2021, 10:29:29 AM
In the above referred to, stereotypical jungle trail patrol, scenario a CM map is huge. With jungles, hills, swamps, scattered villages, little to no roads etc. Some would argue this is the perfect CM infantry type terrain. In many cases it would probably be a waste of time to build a 16 square kilometer map for such a scenario.
Vietnam had a large mix of terrain types - it wasn't just jungle. There was plenty of conventional woodland areas very similar to the European terrain depicted by the other CM titles.
QuoteThe helicopters shown in the screenshots are Flavor Objects and not functional. Helicopter operations can be simulated in the CM games. One example is the CMBS scenario Tactical Operations Center (TOC). Through the use of setup zones a player is given a choice of Landing Zones. He can use one or all or none (take vehicles / foot instead) of the LZs. This only works at the start of the scenario.
Not necessarily - you could have reinforcements "teleport" into different areas of the map throughout the game, to simulate helicopter landings. You couldn't simulate the effects of ground fire on the aircraft, nor prevent the landings by AA, etc., nor could you control where or when they "landed", but it isn't restricted to scenario start IIRC.
Yes, I agree. :)
By restricted to scenario start I was referring to choosing a landing zone based on the setup zone colors on the first turn. Having reinforcements appear during the game is how the helicopter landing zone worked in the above (and below) screenshot. With other units (that were generally unit objective targets) leaving via an Exit zone on the same LZ. Lots of cool scenarios and campaigns can be created. The South East Asian super Mod provides another area of the world.
(https://i.imgur.com/Ok7N3XXh.jpg)
Quote from: z1812 on March 30, 2021, 05:50:20 PM
Quote from: Michael Dorosh on March 30, 2021, 01:39:47 PM
Quote from: z1812 on March 30, 2021, 01:14:19 PM
I imagine the reinforcement option could be used to simulate helicopter insertions.
As noted above. But really, why bother? CM depicts short company or battalion size engagements. It's not like helicopters were actively redeploying maneuver elements in the course of a typical firefight or engagement.
Why bother? For purposes of campaign design.
I don't understand the relationship. Can you explain?
Quote from: z1812 on March 29, 2021, 06:37:48 PM
Quote from: gregb41352 on March 29, 2021, 06:04:33 PM
"There is everything from operation Neptune Spear (the raid to kill Bin Laden) to 3rd World Coup d'etats, hostage rescue/evacuations to scenarios set in Africa and other places. One designer is also working on a police mod for CMSF2."
Where are such goodies to be found? The Battlefront website community forums? I poked around in there some and I couldn't find much.
Here you are: https://www.thefewgoodmen.com/cm-mod-warehouse/
There is also the scenario depot: https://www.thefewgoodmen.com/tsd3/
Here is the Heaven and Earth Mod https://community.battlefront.com/topic/138677-heaven-earth-the-peoples-beta/
Many thanks.
Quote from: Michael Dorosh on March 30, 2021, 10:53:44 PM
Quote from: z1812 on March 30, 2021, 05:50:20 PM
Quote from: Michael Dorosh on March 30, 2021, 01:39:47 PM
Quote from: z1812 on March 30, 2021, 01:14:19 PM
I imagine the reinforcement option could be used to simulate helicopter insertions.
As noted above. But really, why bother? CM depicts short company or battalion size engagements. It's not like helicopters were actively redeploying maneuver elements in the course of a typical firefight or engagement.
Why bother? For purposes of campaign design.
I don't understand the relationship. Can you explain?
You design a 5 mission campaign. On the 3r or 4th mission you would like to simulate troops being delivered by helicopter. Identify a reinforcement entry area and viola.........simulated Helo delivery.
Quote from: z1812 on March 31, 2021, 03:38:05 PM
You design a 5 mission campaign. On the 3r or 4th mission you would like to simulate troops being delivered by helicopter. Identify a reinforcement entry area and viola.........simulated Helo delivery.
CM hasn't had a persistent terrain campaign model for nearly 20 years. There would be no reason to do this.
Quote from: Michael Dorosh on April 01, 2021, 12:15:38 AM
Quote from: z1812 on March 31, 2021, 03:38:05 PM
You design a 5 mission campaign. On the 3r or 4th mission you would like to simulate troops being delivered by helicopter. Identify a reinforcement entry area and viola.........simulated Helo delivery.
CM hasn't had a persistent terrain campaign model for nearly 20 years. There would be no reason to do this.
You don't need persistent terrain in a campaign to feature one or 2 scenarios with a simulated Helo insertion using the reinforcement method. You don't even need to do it in a campaign. You could use it in any scenario. It may not suit you, but like it or not it can be done. The world does turn upon what your opinion may be. If you don't like the approach don't use it. But it can be done.
Quote from: z1812 on April 01, 2021, 09:02:14 AM
Quote from: Michael Dorosh on April 01, 2021, 12:15:38 AM
Quote from: z1812 on March 31, 2021, 03:38:05 PM
You design a 5 mission campaign. On the 3r or 4th mission you would like to simulate troops being delivered by helicopter. Identify a reinforcement entry area and viola.........simulated Helo delivery.
CM hasn't had a persistent terrain campaign model for nearly 20 years. There would be no reason to do this.
You don't need persistent terrain in a campaign to feature one or 2 scenarios with a simulated Helo insertion using the reinforcement method. You don't even need to do it in a campaign. You could use it in any scenario. It may not suit you, but like it or not it can be done. The world does turn upon what your opinion may be. If you don't like the approach don't use it. But it can be done.
I have no quibble with the method, but it has nothing to do with a campaign, which was what you stated in your original comment. Given that campaigns in CM are just scenarios strung together, it's plain old irrelevant to the design of a campaign.
Quote from: MOS:96B2P on March 26, 2021, 02:22:28 PM
37mm has released a Vietnam-esque" Super-mod for CMSF2 called Heaven & Earth. At the bottom of this post I attempted to link a U-Tube video. This super-mod practically turns CMSF 2 into another CM game family. It is still in Beta but is available for download, game play and feedback. It even features working riverine patrol craft. Very cool. I'm really looking forward to the final version.
Some of the content includes:
Four "Bong-Hai Civil War" Era Campaigns-
The 15 mission "Year of the Rat"
I can't get this to run. Locks up my computer tighter than a drum.
A 15 mission People's Militia concept campaign (The Special War).
A conversion of a 7 mission CMA campaign now dubbed Major Nguyens Command.
A 7 mission Urban "conversion" campaign.
Sixteen "Bong-Hai Civil War" Era scenarios
One Modern era Campaign- Battle of Quy Ly- 4 missions
Nine Modern Era scenarios.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cegG3ZbpFg
I can't get this to run. Locks up my computer tighter than a drum.
Quote from: gregb41352 on April 01, 2021, 11:03:01 PM
Quote from: MOS:96B2P on March 26, 2021, 02:22:28 PM
37mm has released a Vietnam-esque" Super-mod for CMSF2 called Heaven & Earth. At the bottom of this post I attempted to link a U-Tube video. This super-mod practically turns CMSF 2 into another CM game family. It is still in Beta but is available for download, game play and feedback. It even features working riverine patrol craft. Very cool. I'm really looking forward to the final version.
Some of the content includes:
Four "Bong-Hai Civil War" Era Campaigns-
The 15 mission "Year of the Rat"
I can't get this to run. Locks up my computer tighter than a drum.
A 15 mission People's Militia concept campaign (The Special War).
A conversion of a 7 mission CMA campaign now dubbed Major Nguyens Command.
A 7 mission Urban "conversion" campaign.
Sixteen "Bong-Hai Civil War" Era scenarios
One Modern era Campaign- Battle of Quy Ly- 4 missions
Nine Modern Era scenarios.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cegG3ZbpFg
I can't get this to run. Locks up my computer tighter than a drum.
I have not installed it yet so I can't help you. If you post at Battlefront, in the cmsf2 mods ands scenario section, someone will help you.
Below is an example of Landing Zones (LZ)s in use. A Company sized element lands by platoon in LZ Whiskey. The first platoon starts in the LZ. The remaining platoons spawn in LZ Whiskey, using the reinforcement feature, during the early part of the scenario. The platoons move east with the mission of searching the village for supplies and insurgents. They have off map artillery on call from a firebase and air support. After searching the village the platoons move to the extraction point at LZ Echo. LZ Echo contains an exit zone. The platoons are unit objectives and must exit or the insurgents earn victory points. Various triggers may be activated by the maneuvering platoons. Lots of interesting possibilities.
(https://i.imgur.com/NY4lUiJh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/491Scgyh.jpg)
OpFor
(https://i.imgur.com/eoSbSi4h.jpg)
The opfor guys are too clean cut. They look like SF in pajamas. They need covers. Bandanas, conical hats, etc.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on April 08, 2021, 02:27:23 PM
The opfor guys are too clean cut. They look like SF in pajamas. They need covers. Bandanas, conical hats, etc.
Good point. That could be improved. The super mod is actually still in Beta. Over at the BFC forums the topic is referred to as "The Peoples Beta". I will mention this improvement to 37mm who also stops by this forum (not sure of his forum name here). Those suggestions would be a cool improvement.
Obviously a huge part of the COIN thing is differentiating the civilians from the armed threat, so can CM do non-combatants?
Quote from: Father Ted on April 08, 2021, 05:15:53 PM
Obviously a huge part of the COIN thing is differentiating the civilians from the armed threat, so can CM do non-combatants?
CMSF2 is able to do civilians. Below are screenshots from scenarios other than the H&E Super Mod. However H&E also use civilians. I'll also post some H&E shots later. The below shots I had immediately available so I used them. The civilians mostly all share a love of guitars and as a result they often play the "air guitar". ;D
US non-combatants reporting to a US Consulate prior to evacuation.
(https://i.imgur.com/2xkqEaDh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZFZbb9nh.jpg)
Inside the Consulate under protection of the USMC while the relief force prepares off shore.
(https://i.imgur.com/HypPB5Fh.jpg)
Off shore relief force.
(https://i.imgur.com/61HBgOZh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/nBY8jBoh.jpg)
And just because.......... :)
(https://i.imgur.com/5QmKkTLh.jpg)
Lots of interesting possibilities including civilians.
Okay, cool
As promised, some civilians in the CMSF2 H&E Super Mod.
(https://i.imgur.com/jqE6ZDoh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/6kz3veth.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZLS6paxh.jpg)
They sure do play a lot of air guitar. It's unfortunate that models can't do much but hold rifles.