Hi All,
We are releasing Battles of Normandy (aka Panzer Battles 2) today on John Tillers site.
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The official product page is here; http://johntillersoftware.com/PanzerBattles/BattlesOfNormandy.html
The blurb and screen shots is as follows;
Battles of Normandy
"Men, I am not a religious man and I don't know your feelings in this matter, but I am going to ask you to pray with me for the success of the mission before us. And while we pray, let us get on our knees and not look down but up with faces raised to the sky so that we can see God and ask his blessing in what we are about to do."
"God almighty, in a few short hours we will be in battle with the enemy. We do not join battle afraid. We do not ask favors or indulgence but ask that, if You will, use us as Your instrument for the right and an aid in returning peace to the world."
"We do not know or seek what our fate will be. We ask only this, that if die we must, that we die as men would die, without complaining, without pleading and safe in the feeling that we have done our best for what we believed was right."
"Oh Lord, protect our loved ones and be near us in the fire ahead and with us now as we pray to you."
Lt Col Robert Wolverton, Commanding Officer, 3rd battalion, 506th PIR. KIA June 6th, 1944
Overview
The Battle of Normandy evokes so many emotions. It was the beginning of the 'Great Crusade' in Northern Europe by the Western Allies, yet was viewed as long overdue by the bloodied Soviets. Few realise that the casualties suffered in the three months of the summer of 1944 in Normandy rivalled the worst of the Eastern Front. The air and seaborne landings in Northern France were the largest the world has ever seen, with meticulous planning for D-Day, yet marked by a surfeit of clear goals once ashore. Both the bocage terrain and the dogged defence by the Germans resulted in the need for unexpected improvisation. Both sides had significant constraints; the British were nearing manpower exhaustion and would have to rely excessively on their armour arm, the United States had boundless resources but many of their divisions had never been in combat, while the Germans were short of everything and it was only through their ability to organise disparate troops into flexible kampfgruppen that they held the Allies for as long as they did. Ultimately, the Battle of Normandy resulted in the utter defeat of the Germans at Falaise with France and Belgium quickly liberated thereafter. The Allied advance would last till late September 1944, ending in the streets of Arnhem with Operation Market Garden. This second release in the Panzer Battles franchise is focused on many of the battles that occurred across the Calvados & Cotentin regions of Northern France. Fought across nearly three months from June 6th 1944 to August 20th 1944, actions from the D-Day landings, through the bocage fighting to the pursuit and destruction of the German forces at Falaise are included.
Campaigns and Scenarios
Battles of Normandy includes 2 Campaigns with 23 scenarios, 5 variable scenarios and a further 65 standalone scenarios ranging from 6 turns to 144 turns in length – a total of 93 different situations. Representative days of battle from June, July and August 1944 are included with a good mix of small (battalion/regiment), medium (division) and large (corps) engagements.
· June 6th; D-Day Landings 14 scenarios
· June 7th; Hitlerjugend's counterattack 2 scenarios
· June 11th; Operation Perch 3 scenarios
· June 13th; Villers Bocage 2 scenarios
· June 13th to June 14th; Carentan 2 scenario
· June 22nd; Cherbourg 3 scenarios
· June 25th; Operation Martlet 2 scenarios
· June 26th to June 29th; Operation Epsom 4 scenarios
· July 4th; Operation Windsor 1 scenario
· July 11th; St Lo 4 scenarios
· July 18th to July 19th; Operation Goodwood 6 scenarios
· July 25th; Operation Spring 2 scenarios
· July 26th to July 29th; Operation Cobra 3 scenarios
· July 30th to August 5th; Operation Bluecoat 7 scenarios
· August 7th to August 8th; Operation Lüttich 3 scenarios
· August 8th to August 9th; Operation Totalize 4 scenarios
· August 11th to August 12th; US 3rd Army breakout 2 scenarios
· August 19th; Falaise gap 1 scenario
· 4th/7th Royal Dragoon Guards Campaign 5 scenarios
· 2nd Armored Division (US) Campaign 18 scenarios
Features
· 93 Scenarios – covering all sizes and situations, including specialized versions for both head to head play and vs. the computer AI
· The Master Map covers 398,000 hexes covering the area of Calvados and the Cotentin Peninsula. 70 sub maps are included. The map area is four times bigger than the map included with Battles of Kursk – Southern Flank.
· An Order of Battle with over 21,200 units from two Allied Army Groups and a German Army Group including units from Wehrmacht, SS, and Luftwaffe formations as well as United States, British, Canadian, French, Polish, Belgian and Dutch units.
· Unit component, Order-of-Battle and Scenario Editors which allow players to customize the game.
· Sub-map feature allowing any of the included maps to be "chopped" up into smaller segments for custom scenario creation.
· All new map graphics with a new visual style to improve height perception. Fortifications and other icons are integrated into the game map.
· Three different counter sets switchable in game including side on, top down and NATO symbols.
· All new images for unit art for both sides, including infantry, guns and vehicles.
· Exceptional Documentation including a 136 page 'Visual Order of Battle Guide' and 149 page 'Designer Notes & FAQ'. Both are included with the game. In addition, for optional download an 88 page 'Daily Situation/ Scenario Maps' and a 190mb digital version of the complete game map.
Battles of Normandy provides multiple play options including play against the computer AI, Play by E-mail (PBEM), LAN & Internet "live" play, and two player hot seat.
Credits
Project Co-ordinator
David Freer, Glenn Saunders
Scenario Design
Rick Bancroft, Dave 'Blackie' Blackburn, Jeff Conner, David Freer, Kevin Hankins, Glenn Saunders
Order of Battle
Mike Avanzini, David Freer, Glenn Saunders
Planning Maps
Mike Avanzini
Game Maps
Dave 'Blackie' Blackburn, David Freer, David Michas
Unit Graphics/Game Art
Joe Amoral, David Freer
Game Documentation
Mike Avanzini, David Freer
Play Testing
Eric Baker, Rick 'Ricky B' Bancroft, Brian 'Dogsoldier' Bedford,
Julio 'JC' Cabrera, Jeff Conner, Stephen Duncan, David Freer,
Kevin 'Kuriltai' Hankins, César 'Indragnir' Librán Moreno, Phil Niven, Ed 'Richie61' Pacitto, Dennis 'Landser34' Suttman, Martin Svendsen, Ed 'Volcano Man' Williams
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I hope you all enjoy the game as much as we do,
David
Wow, now that looks shiny and fun! O0
Nice! Love the improved map tiles. Well done!
Looks really nice! Congrats to the team for the hard work you've put in it, you must (and should!) be really proud of this :)
Yes - looks spectacular ... bought.
For those on the fence, John has provided all the documentation including some that were not bundled with the game for free.
You can get them from the below links;
File Preview
Designer Notes (149 page 15MB PDF file) (http://johntillersoftware.com/PanzerBattles/BattlesOfNormandy/Notes.pdf)
Planning Maps (88 page 203MB PDF file) (http://johntillersoftware.com/PanzerBattles/BattlesOfNormandy/Battles%20of%20Normandy%20-%20Situation-Scenario%20Maps.pdf)
Getting Started Guide (42 page 9MB PDF file) (http://johntillersoftware.com/PanzerBattles/BattlesOfNormandy/Started.pdf)
User Manual (102 page 2MB PDF file) (http://johntillersoftware.com/PanzerBattles/BattlesOfNormandy/user.pdf)
Summer Map (190MB PNG file) (http://johntillersoftware.com/PanzerBattles/BattlesOfNormandy/Normandy%20-%20Summer%20Map.png)
Visual Order of Battle (136 page 68MB PDF file) (http://johntillersoftware.com/PanzerBattles/BattlesOfNormandy/Battles%20of%20Normandy%20-%20Visual%20OOB.pdf)
The Designer Notes and Visual Order of Battle in particular are worth having a look at;
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David
Hi,
Can't wait to get started .. purchased and downloading .. :)
Great supporting documentation .. luv it .. 8)
Congrats to the Development team, .. and all those that contributed. O0
Cheers
Tom
Damn it. I think those planning maps just pushed me over the edge.
link to the product page doesn't work for me
Quote from: -budd- on December 17, 2015, 04:14:07 PM
link to the product page doesn't work for me
Try now - never cut and paste direct from a word document...!!!!!
David
My first PzB purchase, likely my one and only Christmas present selfie. ;)
Congrats to the PzB team!
How does the new Panzer Battles compare to the old Panzer Campaign games still being sold on the HPS site regarding scale, turn time, UI, etc?
Been waiting on this. This combined with Chris Maiorana's new Crimean scenarios for the Kursk game have me distracted from other stuff in the limited game time I have this week.
Nicely done Strela and team!
Quote from: Rayfer on December 17, 2015, 05:25:44 PM
How does the new Panzer Battles compare to the old Panzer Campaign games still being sold on the HPS site regarding scale, turn time, UI, etc?
We wrote a comparison of changes/similarities in the
Kursk designer notes. Most of these are applicable still though we have included a campaign engine with the Normandy release. Hopefully the details you need are below;
Is Panzer Battles an update of John Tillers Campaign Series?o Panzer Battles is a new simulation series that is designed to fit between Squad Battles and Panzer Campaigns and uses many features of both. It is built on the Panzer Campaigns engine with Squad Battles features as well as new routines to reflect this scale. Many of Panzer Battles' individual features are laid out in the answers below.
o John Tiller's Campaign Series covered multiple engagements in a campaign format. Panzer Battles covers a specific battle in depth.
What is the scale of Panzer Battles? o Panzer Battles is a grand tactical, platoon/company simulation. Hexes are 250 metres across, height levels are 20 metres and turns are 30 minutes during daylight and 60 minutes during night.
Why is Panzer Battles called a 'Battle Simulation'? o Panzer Battles is intended to cover engagements no longer than a day. The focus is on the manoeuvring of mid-sized formations such as Regiments, Brigades and Divisions.
o To represent this shorter period, loss recovery and night fatigue are not in play.
What features have come from Squad Battles? o Persistent Concealment. Dependent on the terrain, units will not be revealed until they either fire, are recon spotted or are assaulted. It is possible to assault a hidden unit in a hex.
o Unlimited opportunity fire. Units during the Defensive Fire phase may fire an unlimited number of times. A previous tactic from Panzer Campaigns of soaking up Defensive Fire with a 'cheap' unit no longer applies.
What features have originated or been adjusted from Panzer Campaigns? o Recon spotting is a standard rule and can result in spotting concealed units.
o There is no phased play, i.e. all Defensive Fire is controlled by the AI in the opponents turn.
o Indirect Fire always uses the alternate rule, i.e. all units in a hex are subject to losses.
o The alternate rules for Direct Fire and Assaults are not used or available.
o There are no penetrated hexes for obstacles or minefields. With the lower scale, field fortifications need to be cleared by engineers.
o There is no Operational Auto Move, but the Immediate AI Orders, Move in Column function is included.
o Artillery will not stockpile during a scenario, but can start a scenario stockpiled. Mortars and direct fire only artillery (Infantry Guns) cannot start stockpiled.
o Vehicles will only get ½ the defensive benefit of the terrain in a hex and ½ the Improved Position and Trench fortifications benefit.
o Units with an Assault Value of 0 are automatically overrun if assaulted for the cost of moving into the terrain.
o Units other than Artillery do not go Low Ammo when isolated. This is to represent the ammo combat load that units carried with them. Units can be set as starting with Low Ammo in a scenario if required.
o Delayed disruption is not included. With the closer ranges it is evident when a unit is in disarray.
o Bunker building is not included as the time frame is not sufficient for creating these fortifications.
o Encrypted PBEM game files use a new checksum to indicate if a modified game file (OB, PDT etc) has been used.
o The included optional rules are; Artillery setup, Optional Surrender, Low Visibility Air Effects, Programmed Weather, Limited Air Recon, Optional Fire Results, Optional Assault Results, Higher Fatigue Recovery, Indirect Fire & Air Strikes by the Map, Counterbattery Fire & No Low Fuel Effects.
What new features have been included for Panzer Battles? o A spotting unit cannot have moved if it wants to call in artillery or airstrikes. The onus is on the player to execute all his strikes before moving too many units.
o Artillery can fire either HE or smoke. The munitions type can be selected from the Artillery Dialog. Smoke will persist till the start of the firing players next turn. Units can fire out of or into a smoke hex with no loss of effectiveness but not through it. There are a finite number of smoke rounds per side in a scenario.
o There is a limit of how much artillery can fire into a hex. The number of guns that can fire into a hex is limited to 1.5 X the hex stacking limit divided by 10. With a maximum stacking limit of 250 in Kursk, this gives a value of 375 (250 X 1.5) divided by 10 for each gun. Therefore, 37 guns (rounded down) can fire on any particular hex assuming it can be spotted by appropriate units.
o A Stack Fire modifier is calculated for both Direct and Indirect fire if a hex has 50% or more stacking points in it. In Kursk losses will increase once a hex has 125 men or equivalents (250 stacking limit / 2). Over stacking modifiers can be checked by right clicking on the Terrain box.
o Units will only block line of sight (LOS) if they have stacking points 50% or higher than the stacking limit. In Kursk any hex with 125 points or higher of men or equivalents will satisfy the LOS check.
o Vehicle wrecks have been included. Wrecks impact road movement and visibility. Each wreck counts as 10 against the road movement limit in a hex. In Kursk the road movement limit is 75. If there were 3 wrecks in a hex only 4 vehicles could move through the hex at a time and still use road movement. Once 8 wrecks are in a hex, no road movement is possible and in forbidden terrain such as swamp & marsh, vehicles would not be able to enter a hex under any circumstances. Once a hex contains wrecks over the road movement limit (In Kursk this is 8 wrecks or more) it is considered to be a permanent smoke hex and will block all LOS through the hex.
o Vehicles can carry foot infantry even if they are not transport units. These
external riders are limited to 5 men per vehicle. Riding a tank into battle is extremely risky and this has been taken into account. Riders are considered to be in travel mode while aboard and this significantly increases their exposure. External riders can be fired on by soft attack values even when the transporting vehicle is hard. External riders will be eliminated when the vehicle they are on is in an assault, no matter whether they are attacking or defending in the assault. Finally, External riders are 4 times more vulnerable to minefield attacks.
o There is an Assign Opportunity Fire (AOF) dialog that allows engagement ranges to be set for different unit types. This allows units to be setup to utilise persistent concealment and only fire at either the appropriate range or target.
o Fortifications (Improved Positions, Trenches, Bunkers and Pill-Boxes) are owned by either side. This allows 'friendly' minefields, obstacles and fortifications to be seen.
o Intel markers have been included for known or suspected enemy positions that are out of LOS or in persistent concealment. These Intel markers are set within the scenario.
o Raised rail and roads have been included to allow embanked transport routes. This is important for Kursk where many of the railroads were raised to avoid the effects of the spring thaw (Rasputitsa). At Prokhorovka the raised railway significantly divided the battle in two.
o Off board units are available. This is particularly pertinent for headquarters and artillery. In a smaller battle these units are available to provide command or fire, but are their historical distance from the battlefield. The inclusion of off board units allows smaller maps to be employed yet available assets to be used.
o Air units have to be plotted a turn earlier than the actual airstrike resolution. If the target hex is empty, there is a chance that an adjacent hex is attacked. Some air units are one time use while other may be available from turn to turn.
David
How do the campaigns work? Do units carry over? Does it branch or is it a linear progression?
Strela/David....thanks for your comprehensive post. I was hoping it wasn't just a redo of Panzer Campaigns. I look forward to giving it a go.
Congratulations to David on a new game! You are a hard worker Sir!
Kursk was good, but this title is GREAT! :D
Quote from: Rayfer on December 17, 2015, 07:02:34 PM
Strela/David....thanks for your comprehensive post. I was hoping it wasn't just a redo of Panzer Campaigns. I look forward to giving it a go.
Different scale. It pretty similar to Campaign series in scale.
Congrats Dave. Looks good! O0
Quote from: smittyohio on December 17, 2015, 06:32:59 PM
How do the campaigns work? Do units carry over? Does it branch or is it a linear progression?
Smittyohio,
This is the first version of the campaign engine. That said it is pretty powerful. It's based off the engine that has been used in Tiller's Squad Battles, American Civil War and the Napoleonic titles. Units can carry over, but losses etc do not - that is an enhancement we're currently looking at. Keep in mind, losses carrying over is only relevant if scenarios are pretty much contiguous in time.
It can do both linear and branching progression. We have a purely linear introductory campaign based of the British armour regiment - Royal Dragoon Guards which has five linked scenarios. The US 2nd Armored Division campaign is a branching campaign with both sides having a variety of strategies to chose from. Most rounds have two possible selections which then generates one of four possible scenarios based on those choices. If both sides has three possible choices then nine potential scenarios are created. Based upon the performance in the selected scenario then next scenario or strategy choice is determined with appropriate branching.
I put up quite a long post here ; http://www.theblitz.org/message_boards/showthread.php?tid=68266&pid=406147#pid406147 (http://www.theblitz.org/message_boards/showthread.php?tid=68266&pid=406147#pid406147) which should graphically show what I'm talking about and the kind of choices players get during campaign play.
Any further questions, please ask.
David
Campaign sounds nice. Better than Kursk.
Quote from: jomni on December 17, 2015, 11:34:10 PM
Campaign sounds nice. Better than Kursk.
The engine was actually available for Kursk, but the content wasn't. We had content ready for Normandy, but even then we had to curtail the amount of time we spent on creating new campaigns due to the sheer number of engagements that occurred over three months in Normandy. The engine will work with Kursk, someone just has to create the campaign...
David
Quote from: Strela on December 17, 2015, 11:32:33 PM
Quote from: smittyohio on December 17, 2015, 06:32:59 PM
How do the campaigns work? Do units carry over? Does it branch or is it a linear progression?
Smittyohio,
This is the first version of the campaign engine. That said it is pretty powerful. It's based off the engine that has been used in Tiller's Squad Battles, American Civil War and the Napoleonic titles. Units can carry over, but losses etc do not - that is an enhancement we're currently looking at. Keep in mind, losses carrying over is only relevant if scenarios are pretty much contiguous in time.
It can do both linear and branching progression. We have a purely linear introductory campaign based of the British armour regiment - Royal Dragoon Guards which has five linked scenarios. The US 2nd Armored Division campaign is a branching campaign with both sides having a variety of strategies to chose from. Most rounds have two possible selections which then generates one of four possible scenarios based on those choices. If both sides has three possible choices then nine potential scenarios are created. Based upon the performance in the selected scenario then next scenario or strategy choice is determined with appropriate branching.
I put up quite a long post here ; http://www.theblitz.org/message_boards/showthread.php?tid=68266&pid=406147#pid406147 (http://www.theblitz.org/message_boards/showthread.php?tid=68266&pid=406147#pid406147) which should graphically show what I'm talking about and the kind of choices players get during campaign play.
Any further questions, please ask.
David
Thanks for the reply! Sounds really good, and the price is very reasonable. I'll be taking a look at this during the holidays!
I have not had a chance to go through everything yet however, from what I have gone through and seen so far, I think that this title has to be the best looking and well put together HPS/JTS game I have seen and owned to date, and I own 64 HPS/JTS titles!!
Just based on the info that is included in the Notes PDF, it is amazing to see how much detail and effort went into it. I also was very excited to see all of these real WWII pictures in which 95% of them I had never seen before.
I can't wait to play through the Getting Started scenarios and start playing some PBEM again.
I also love the fact that you guys offer so many different unit graphic options so players can easily customize their game to the way they like to view it.
Best of all, it is all stock!
You guys sure have set a very high benchmark that hopefully future JTS releases will follow!
Very, Very Impressive!
Thanks
anyway a unit count for each scenario could be posted.
Quote from: -budd- on December 19, 2015, 11:34:42 PM
anyway a unit count for each scenario could be posted.
What do you mean budd?
Each scenario is rated for size (battalion, regiment, division etc) and all those details are available in the designers notes for free. If you want to know the approximate number of units for each of these just let me know and I'll post here.
David
Yes please, number of units in the scenarios.
Any impressions for those who bought the game? Might be my first tiller purchase in a long time.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 20, 2015, 02:16:38 PM
Any impressions for those who bought the game? Might be my first tiller purchase in a long time.
I just wrote up an AAR of a smaller, but interesting scenario: http://panzerde.blogspot.com/2015/12/candian-armour-le-mesnil-patry.html
Quote from: panzerde on December 20, 2015, 07:56:09 PM
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 20, 2015, 02:16:38 PM
Any impressions for those who bought the game? Might be my first tiller purchase in a long time.
I just wrote up an AAR of a smaller, but interesting scenario: http://panzerde.blogspot.com/2015/12/candian-armour-le-mesnil-patry.html
Great! I will head over to read now...
Very nice write-up....certainly has me close to purchasing.
Yea nice write up. I'm defiantly considering it, just want to know if there are a bunch of medium to small scenarios. I'm not into moving hundreds of counters anymore, but it does look nice and i like the scale.
Quote from: -budd- on December 20, 2015, 08:34:35 PM
Yea nice write up. I'm defiantly considering it, just want to know if there are a bunch of medium to small scenarios. I'm not into moving hundreds of counters anymore, but it does look nice and i like the scale.
Good questions...I prefer smaller as well.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 20, 2015, 08:37:04 PM
Quote from: -budd- on December 20, 2015, 08:34:35 PM
Yea nice write up. I'm defiantly considering it, just want to know if there are a bunch of medium to small scenarios. I'm not into moving hundreds of counters anymore, but it does look nice and i like the scale.
Good questions...I prefer smaller as well.
There is one monster scenario - basically the complete landings and airborne ops of June 6, a handful of Corps sized scenarios, such as the complete British landings, a number of divisional scenarios, and then a bunch of regiment and brigade sized. A pretty nice mix. If you like Campaign Series (and I know you do Budd) I'm guessing you'll like this. This is really the direct descendant of Campaign Series. Same scale, very similar mechanics, even a virtually identical Op Fire dialog.
Best bet is to take a look at the Designer's notes at http://www.johntillersoftware.com/PanzerBattles/BattlesOfNormandy/Notes.pdf. Scenario descriptions start on page 50. The Designer's Notes alone are nearly worth the cost of the game: 149 pages of detailed information, and that doesn't include the separate Visual OOB document.
Quote from: panzerde on December 20, 2015, 09:16:50 PM
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 20, 2015, 08:37:04 PM
Quote from: -budd- on December 20, 2015, 08:34:35 PM
Yea nice write up. I'm defiantly considering it, just want to know if there are a bunch of medium to small scenarios. I'm not into moving hundreds of counters anymore, but it does look nice and i like the scale.
Good questions...I prefer smaller as well.
There is one monster scenario - basically the complete landings and airborne ops of June 6, a handful of Corps sized scenarios, such as the complete British landings, a number of divisional scenarios, and then a bunch of regiment and brigade sized. A pretty nice mix. If you like Campaign Series (and I know you do Budd) I'm guessing you'll like this. This is really the direct descendant of Campaign Series. Same scale, very similar mechanics, even a virtually identical Op Fire dialog.
Best bet is to take a look at the Designer's notes at http://www.johntillersoftware.com/PanzerBattles/BattlesOfNormandy/Notes.pdf. Scenario descriptions start on page 50. The Designer's Notes alone are nearly worth the cost of the game: 149 pages of detailed information, and that doesn't include the separate Visual OOB document.
Do you have the Kursk game? Same question regarding scenario unit count. I just have so many good wargames to play right now, since its not on sale i don't feel the rush to buy.
Quote from: -budd- on December 20, 2015, 09:21:36 PM
Do you have the Kursk game? Same question regarding scenario unit count. I just have so many good wargames to play right now, since its not on sale i don't feel the rush to buy.
Yep, I have Battles of Kursk as well. It's the same way: a few really large scenarios, quite a few divisional and a similar number of brigade/regiment sized scenarios. I find most of the scenarios to be playable in an hour or two.
Same deal on the Designer's Notes: http://www.johntillersoftware.com/PanzerBattles/BattlesOfKurskSouthern/notes.pdf
Both games have great planning maps, too.
Dave Freer and team really have just done an amazing job on the research for these. The engine is also very flexible: my friend Chris Maiorana just did a set of three scenarios depicting Crimea 1941 as described in the book
Where the Iron Crosses Grow using the Kursk game, with Dave & team doing the OOBs and TO&Es with 1941 equipment.
Personally I'm finding I like the Normandy game more than the Kursk game. I think Normandy presents more interesting tactical choices. Kursk is a big tank battle, but the Soviets just prepared such extensive fortification belts that a lot of the scenarios have you spending a lot of time trying to punch holes in bunker lines. Normandy is a lot more fluid and interesting to me. Chris' scenarios do that for East Front with the Kursk game, and I'm hoping we'll see more like that.
As for sales, I'm not sure I've ever seen a JTS sale. It appears they've done very well with the Normandy game sales-wise, but you're right: the games are going to be there if you come back in six months.
Still, Normandy is a hell of a lot of fun. I'm really very happy with it.
Does the game play feel substantially different from the Panzer Campaigns series?
thanks for the links. Just read the notes on Normandy....who am i kidding i'll be getting this. There's a lot of interesting engagements at a scale i really like. The price is fair, i just tell myself to wait because i don't need another game in the que. I played the crap out of CSME for about 3 weeks, jumped into FP reforged and finished most of the NATO scenarios and now i'm knee deep in DCB, which is great and completely playable for me at the Division scale. It almost sounds like i'm complaining about having too many good wargames to play ;D. No work until January so i'll be filling time with some good wargaming. You know once upon a time i could play the same game for months...AAAA the good ole days.
Quote from: Barthheart on December 20, 2015, 09:45:53 PM
Does the game play feel substantially different from the Panzer Campaigns series?
The basic UI is the same, with a lot of the same mechanics. It's the same basic engine, so it uses the same means for movement and firing, etc.
OTOH, with the scale being very different, the actual game play is very different. Where units need to be adjacent in Panzer Campaigns to attack, for example, units in Panzer Battles can fire at range - and will definitely need to to avoid getting chewed up on the attack. Tactical use of terrain features is important. Fire and maneuver is a necessity. Artillery is used for tactical support, smoke is important, and it's often smart to hold some back to plaster a target of opportunity. Air strikes are not instantaneous like they are in Panzer Campaigns, but are called for in one turn and arrive the next - provided they aren't intercepted by enemy air.
So, it isn't substantially different in that it looks very similar, unit details are in an infobox and not immediately visible on the counters, etc. Losses are by manpower and not by steps, like all Tiller games. Tactically though it plays more like Campaign Series than Panzer Campaigns. It's a step up in scale though from games like ASL or LNL Tactical, so it isn't brief and fast-moving firefights, either, though it probably feels closer to that than an operational game like Panzer Campaigns or Decisive Campaigns.
Hmmmm... sounds interesting.... just don't tell Cyrano that... ;)
Quote from: Barthheart on December 20, 2015, 10:06:00 PM
Hmmmm... sounds interesting.... just don't tell Cyrano that... ;)
Amazingly, he hasn't bought it yet that I know of. He's whinging about the maps not being the right color palette or something. Apparently JTS needs to include a free bottle of Peach Schnapps with every purchase. >:D
Honestly, the entire time I was playing the Le Mesnil-Patry scenario I kept thinking "Vance should play this, they've done such a great job with the Canadians in this!" To have even included that particular engagement in the scenario list is impressive in my book.
And if the Canadians aren't enough, they have the Poles, French, Dutch and Belgians covered too.
Quote from: panzerde on December 20, 2015, 09:36:04 PM
Personally I'm finding I like the Normandy game more than the Kursk game. I think Normandy presents more interesting tactical choices. Kursk is a big tank battle, but the Soviets just prepared such extensive fortification belts that a lot of the scenarios have you spending a lot of time trying to punch holes in bunker lines. Normandy is a lot more fluid and interesting to me. Chris' scenarios do that for East Front with the Kursk game, and I'm hoping we'll see more like that.
This. I have both games and was a beta tester for Normandy. Dennis and myself played lots of the scenarios. All were well designed and played great. We played the 170 turn scenario in like
2 weeks - LOL!
Quote from: -budd- on December 20, 2015, 08:34:35 PM
Yea nice write up. I'm defiantly considering it, just want to know if there are a bunch of medium to small scenarios. I'm not into moving hundreds of counters anymore, but it does look nice and i like the scale.
They say a picture is worth a thousand words.
Here are two of the three Infanterie Regiments from the German 352 Infanterie Division. You can see the size of each of the battalions here is about 16 units. Please note that many of the 'components' can combine to make bigger units such as full companies. This drops the total unit count down to about 8 or 9 per battalion.
A Regiment/Brigade is either two or three battalions with one or two supporting companies - see below for the supporting infantry gun & AT gun units.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theblitz.org%2Fuploads%2Ffiles%2F752%2FPB%2520Graphics%2520400.jpg&hash=a011e0d1744ead5e6399ea32981aae50b832db9f)
The full 352 Infanterie Division is three of these regiments (you can see two of them above) as well as the divisional assets. Here are the divisional support battalions - again many of these can combine into larger units. For example all the guns in the Artillerie Regiment could combine into just 5 units by type from the original 22.
There are not a huge number of pieces when running even a full division.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theblitz.org%2Fuploads%2Ffiles%2F752%2FPB%2520Graphics%2520399.jpg&hash=1ce0cc1b2731cbe3f3a2f6b713991f8bdebf86b5)
To answer the question on size of scenarios - here is the scenario names and size. Battalion level is small, Regiment/Brigade are small/medium, Division is medium while Corps is large and Army is huge.
Normandy scenario list;
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theblitz.org%2Fuploads%2Ffiles%2F752%2FPB%2520Graphics%2520397.jpg&hash=1896c47cd01d639f8dea5cebdd64a1a91dc8a20b)
And for comparison the equivalent list from Kursk;
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theblitz.org%2Fuploads%2Ffiles%2F752%2FPB%2520Graphics%2520398.jpg&hash=7cd2faa60e28202e8765d9afdc1b125bf1d3871b)
Hope that helps,
David
a picture is indeed worth a thousand words, thanks for putting that together. It's only a matter of when at this point, thanks again.
I am sitting...right...here...
Of course I bought the damn thing...day it came out. My will to resist was not helped by the fact that I had just hit the Overlord section of Hastings' "Inferno" a few days before...or that my son and I are now two weeks into our "D-Day Landings" Memoir '44 game...
I do prefer the PzC color palette, but it is a remarkable game. Particularly notable is the insane level of research they put into this thing...a valuable resource for students of the period, providing even bibliography for the lest trusting.
Golden age for us...
Best,
Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)
^ Ok, now I can send you a PBEM invitation...
I thought maybe you'd held of in hopes of them issuing a patch with dedicated jeep counters.
THis one looks really promising. But I kinda need to make it through more of the 5 or 6 games I've already bought that are unplayed before I get along to this one. Let's see, which should be next?
Hi All,
Over at the Blitz there have been some requests for some alternative versions of the map graphics - a more 'uncluttered' look.
The aim of this mod is to create more 'realistically' sized map graphics for use in Panzer Battles Normandy. If the mod is popular I will update it for Panzer Battles Kursk.
The mod contains the following changes;
New trenches, bunkers, pillboxes and obstacles. Improved positions and sea defenses are unchanged.
New city, town, village, scattered and building hexes.
New brush, forest & orchard hexes. Orchard is bigger in the amount of coverage in a hex.
New railroad and minor road graphics. Trail and primary road are unchanged as their sizing is considered optimal.
New bocage and bridge hexside graphics. No other hexsides are currently changed.
The installation process is as follows;
Download the zip file on the link below
Unzip the zip into the root directory of your Normandy installation
A new directory under the 'Map' directory called 'Map Variants' will be created.
Under 'Map Variants' are two directories 'Original' and 'Small'
Copy the contents of the Small directory and paste into the Map directory. You should be asked to overwrite some files, proceed.
If you want to restore to the original files, go to the 'Original' sub-folder and copy the files within into your map directory, overwriting as you go.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0-r6-Lo8bo-Z0pWZHRLdklLeTg/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0-r6-Lo8bo-Z0pWZHRLdklLeTg/view?usp=sharing)
Here are some Original vs Modded shots in game. Original is at the top, the Modded version is below;
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theblitz.org%2Fuploads%2Ffiles%2F0e5%2FPB%2520Graphics%2520414.jpg&hash=d21b7fc171e607f367ecc34b527a694772e4a397)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theblitz.org%2Fuploads%2Ffiles%2F0e5%2FPB%2520Graphics%2520415.jpg&hash=bfa574a92719255a0e4238e965ca27139f55410c)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theblitz.org%2Fuploads%2Ffiles%2F0e5%2FPB%2520Graphics%2520416.jpg&hash=76f1615b7667f112437035b3c4e5e488d57d6fe1)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theblitz.org%2Fuploads%2Ffiles%2F0e5%2FPB%2520Graphics%2520417.jpg&hash=040559dedc4e468dd1114023ba8c7c36aa6a8a9f)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theblitz.org%2Fuploads%2Ffiles%2F0e5%2FPB%2520Graphics%2520418.jpg&hash=79d7d240c3700117a8ef6fca7ecfa9a6de3e6364)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theblitz.org%2Fuploads%2Ffiles%2F211%2FPB%2520Graphics%2520419.jpg&hash=06972a251cbb9500dbba70061569df5c9a8a8d23)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theblitz.org%2Fuploads%2Ffiles%2F211%2FPB%2520Graphics%2520420.jpg&hash=f670d1cc82d1b204ddfe781403800c5df8597c2d)
David
Very nice, Strela / David! It is amazing how by just changing a few details the whole of the thing becomes something completely new :)
- petri -
Thanks Dave! I saw this last night over at The Blitz and was hoping you'd release it soon. I'm a fan of the current map, but this looks interesting too. I'll give it a try today!
A question - I'm finding it impossible to disrupt SS units, or nearly so. In playing the Cristot scenario last night I managed to disrupt a single SS armor unit, and nothing else. I did manage to complete shoot up to the point of destruction numerous other SS units, but that turned out to be the only way to take ground. SS units will hang on until there is literally no one left. Maybe 50% of the time I'm successful at assaulting a hex with a severely reduced SS unit in it.
Is there a tactic for this I'm missing? I'm definitely concentrating firepower and have fire superiority. I need to try some scenarios with regular Heer troop; so far all I've fought are Fallschirmjager and SS, and these guys are tough to disrupt!
Edit: Nevermind, I figured it out. I had "Higher Fatigue Recovery" checked as an optional rule, which is something I usually use in Panzer Campaigns. For elite morale units like SS, the higher level of fatigue recovery in this game means that they very rarely will accumulate enough fatigue to make them easier to disrupt. Probably not an optional rule I want to use in Panzer Battles!
Oh, and now that I've seen it in-game and played with it for awhile, I definitely prefer the new map design.
Quote from: panzerde on December 24, 2015, 11:27:29 AM
Thanks Dave! I saw this last night over at The Blitz and was hoping you'd release it soon. I'm a fan of the current map, but this looks interesting too. I'll give it a try today!
A question - I'm finding it impossible to disrupt SS units, or nearly so. In playing the Cristot scenario last night I managed to disrupt a single SS armor unit, and nothing else. I did manage to complete shoot up to the point of destruction numerous other SS units, but that turned out to be the only way to take ground. SS units will hang on until there is literally no one left. Maybe 50% of the time I'm successful at assaulting a hex with a severely reduced SS unit in it.
Is there a tactic for this I'm missing? I'm definitely concentrating firepower and have fire superiority. I need to try some scenarios with regular Heer troop; so far all I've fought are Fallschirmjager and SS, and these guys are tough to disrupt!
Edit: Nevermind, I figured it out. I had "Higher Fatigue Recovery" checked as an optional rule, which is something I usually use in Panzer Campaigns. For elite morale units like SS, the higher level of fatigue recovery in this game means that they very rarely will accumulate enough fatigue to make them easier to disrupt. Probably not an optional rule I want to use in Panzer Battles!
Doug,
That optional rule would do it! That said the elite troops will be very difficult to fight against and you will see that they are pretty resilient. You will also see that the SS have a much broader range of morale values than earlier in the war. Many of these formations had been bled dry and were rebuilding or taking in lower grade replacements. Some of this is discussed in the downloadable Designer Notes.
Glad you like the new graphics - it shows how moddable Tillers games are - I did the above changes in a few days.
David
I have this game now, as a Christmas gift from a very good friend, so I'll be putting some time into it.
That's a very good friend indeed! I really want to get this but I've also always wanted Campaign 1776 so I'm torn. I know, I know, I really should get both.
Quote from: bbmike on December 25, 2015, 08:29:24 AM
That's a very good friend indeed! I really want to get this but I've also always wanted Campaign 1776 so I'm torn. I know, I know, I really should get both.
I own Campaign 1776.....I remember originally buying it from HPS, the day I watched the movie Patriot:) Even ordered special Saturday delivery to receive it sooner and at that time, that kind of shipping was expensive!
It's a good game, I just really struggle with the graphics since the game is fairly old...
Anyone up for a PBEM?
panzerde: units will only recover fatigue under specific conditions, including not being fired upon, so higher fatigue recovery doesn't have much of an effect in situations where you can fire at all or most enemy units during a turn.
It's tricky to get A quality units to the point where they can disrupt, but platoons tend to be 30 man-ish units in many scenarios and not the ~50 man platoons from Kursk, so they die more quickly from direct fire compared to Kursk. Firing at them each turn with decent units will also make them B quality through fatigue fairly quickly.
Quote from: ComradeP on December 25, 2015, 02:04:20 PM
panzerde: units will only recover fatigue under specific conditions, including not being fired upon, so higher fatigue recovery doesn't have much of an effect in situations where you can fire at all or most enemy units during a turn.
It's tricky to get A quality units to the point where they can disrupt, but platoons tend to be 30 man-ish units in many scenarios and not the ~50 man platoons from Kursk, so they die more quickly from direct fire compared to Kursk. Firing at them each turn with decent units will also make them B quality through fatigue fairly quickly.
Yes, I've noticed both of those things. A quality units are devilishly difficult to disrupt for sure. Played a bunch of the Hill 192 scenario yesterday and the FJ company in the Kraut Corner objective is very, very tough to dislodge even with focused artillery and concentrated direct fire. It reliably took me 4-5 turns just to wear it down enough the successive assaults by two nearly full US infantry companies supported by tanks could push them out. Only the assault would result in a disruption.
Conversely, the FJ platoons were easier to disrupt. It almost always takes artillery though. I've seen very few A quality units disrupt just due to direct fire.
I'm curious - I've been experimenting both with breaking units down into platoons and keeping them as full companies. So far it seems like full companies is the way to go when on the assault. Platoons really seem to lack the direct fire firepower to accomplish much. Platoon-sized units in any sort of prepared position that are undisrupted and equal or higher quality that the attackers are very capable, however. I'd be interested to hear anyone else's spin on this.
Dave - point taken about the variable quality of the SS units. Most of what I've played so far has been against either 12 SS-Panzer
Hitlerjugend before it gets seriously torn up, or the 9th & 5th FJ Regiments.
Again, really, really enjoying this game, both for the game itself and the truly impressive Designer's Notes Dave and crew have put together.
I tend to assault with companies as they gain fatigue more slowly, and defend with platoons as it means there are more units to disrupt before the enemy can take the hex, as well as increasing the number of times the defenders fire (more units equals more opportunity fire at the moment due to there being no modifiers for size or quality that I'm aware of).
I also fire with platoons (but by stack, so they're split up, but fire as a stack to minimize return fire) instead of companies if they're not at least B quality, as a loss of 1 man can result in the entire company disrupting.
Quote from: panzerde on December 25, 2015, 07:49:13 PM
Yes, I've noticed both of those things. A quality units are devilishly difficult to disrupt for sure. Played a bunch of the Hill 192 scenario yesterday and the FJ company in the Kraut Corner objective is very, very tough to dislodge even with focused artillery and concentrated direct fire. It reliably took me 4-5 turns just to wear it down enough the successive assaults by two nearly full US infantry companies supported by tanks could push them out. Only the assault would result in a disruption.
Conversely, the FJ platoons were easier to disrupt. It almost always takes artillery though. I've seen very few A quality units disrupt just due to direct fire.
I'm curious - I've been experimenting both with breaking units down into platoons and keeping them as full companies. So far it seems like full companies is the way to go when on the assault. Platoons really seem to lack the direct fire firepower to accomplish much. Platoon-sized units in any sort of prepared position that are undisrupted and equal or higher quality that the attackers are very capable, however. I'd be interested to hear anyone else's spin on this.
Dave - point taken about the variable quality of the SS units. Most of what I've played so far has been against either 12 SS-Panzer Hitlerjugend before it gets seriously torn up, or the 9th & 5th FJ Regiments.
Again, really, really enjoying this game, both for the game itself and the truly impressive Designer's Notes Dave and crew have put together.
Firstly, Hill 192 (both the Getting Started and full version) are great learning exercises on why attacking in the bocage is so hard. By the way, I went to check something in those scenarios and realised that the FJ platoon in (5,8 - Getting Started) is not entrenched - it should be. A boo boo that will be corrected in the first patch for both scenarios.
The FJ in this scenario are all B morale so pretty good. There is a distinct difference to indirect fire, direct fire and assaulting. All have pros and cons and its working out what to use when that provides the 'subtlety' in the game.
One of the biggest combat modifiers here is the -50% for fire through a hedgerow (bocage) hexside. In the case of Kraut Corner, the basic terrain type is grass (-5%) with trenches (-30%) and hedgerows at (-50%). That's a massive -85% modifier for direct fire. Why is bocage so good? The Germans were able to use the raised base of the hedgerows as trenches and overhead cover as well as section off the battlefield very effectively. It took huge effort to clear each field. These modifiers are why you're seeing such ineffectual direct fire.
It's not dissimilar for indirect fire, but the hedgerow modifier is not in play - so the overall modifier is -35%. The trick here is getting enough artillery mass on target to make a difference. Unfortunately there is a limit to how many tubes can hit any one hex - so that has to be another consideration.
Finally, there is assault. This represents actually closing with the enemy with the aim of destroying him or ejecting him from the hex. This is essentially win or lose. Importantly, in hex terrain doesn't count when assaulting with infantry (there is an impact if vehicles are used) but hexsides do. Using the Kraut Corner example again, assaulting with infantry will 'only' be impacted by the -50% for the hedgerows. The grass and trenches do not come into play.
Deciding when to use each fire/combat type is the crux of the game, with the additional lens that different units have different capabilities. Attacking in bocage for a player can be as frustrating as it was in real life.
Moving onto when to use companies vs platoons. Like all things there are advantages & disadvantages. A company will have the largest firepower and a real ability to drive out lesser units when assaulting. The problem is that it will almost always be over the 50% threshold for stacking and taking additional penalties for losses. As the attacker, I usually find the risk of additional losses is outweighed by the extra capability of a full company.
Platoons on the defense will usually be a necessity - particularly if you want to hold a reserve. The problem is that platoons are brittle. Not only are they small in manpower, but they take fatigue at an accelerated rate. Getting them dug into bocage, in entrenchments is a way to improve their longevity and really hold up the attacker - but that will not always be available so determining when to stay and when to run is critical. A full company as you're seeing at Kraut Corner is a luxury, but when available will most likely tie up at least a full battalion of the opposition and be very hard to shift. When confronted with a position like this, it's better to probe either side to see if it can be flanked and isolated and ultimately force the German player to decide whether to stand or run.
David
David, this is excellent stuff. It really helps understand what makes this such an excellent representation of the combat of the time. It also really demonstrates that unlike a lot of other games, there's not really a "black box" that makes it tough for the player to understand the combat mechanics. More like a board game, the modifiers and resolution mechanics are all observable and understandable.
Quote from: Strela on December 26, 2015, 07:42:39 AM
Firstly, Hill 192 (both the Getting Started and full version) are great learning exercises on why attacking in the bocage is so hard. By the way, I went to check something in those scenarios and realised that the FJ platoon in (5,8 - Getting Started) is not entrenched - it should be. A boo boo that will be corrected in the first patch for both scenarios.
The FJ in this scenario are all B morale so pretty good. There is a distinct difference to indirect fire, direct fire and assaulting. All have pros and cons and its working out what to use when that provides the 'subtlety' in the game.
One of the biggest combat modifiers here is the -50% for fire through a hedgerow (bocage) hexside. In the case of Kraut Corner, the basic terrain type is grass (-5%) with trenches (-30%) and hedgerows at (-50%). That's a massive -85% modifier for direct fire. Why is bocage so good? The Germans were able to use the raised base of the hedgerows as trenches and overhead cover as well as section off the battlefield very effectively. It took huge effort to clear each field. These modifiers are why you're seeing such ineffectual direct fire.
Not to mention in the case of the strongpoint at Kraut Corner, unless you are attacking from hexes 2,8 or 3,8 you are attacking across a slope hexside, for another -15%. All told, you have a -100% modifier for direct fire! Last evening after I posted I sat down and really looked at what was going on and the pdt values and realized why all my direct fire was completely ineffective into that hex.
Interestingly, here's a description of that combat from an official US Army history:
Quote
Company E on the right ran into stiff opposition almost immediately, as it tried to reach the small ridge commanding a draw leading up to the hamlet of Cloville. Here was one of the enemy strongpoints, already known as "Kraut Corner," fanatically defended by half a company of Germans who had survived the heavy artillery pounding prior to the attack. The 2d Platoon of Company E tried to work its way up to the first hedgerow in the fields, but was unable to advance because of automatic weapons and mortar fire. The enemy's mortars were registered on the hedgerow lines and blanketed all routes of advance. The 3d Platoon was sent in to give support; a few men succeeded in working their way near enough to the enemy position to throw hand grenades, but got no farther. The defenses of Kraut Corner finally gave way when the 1st Platoon got around the east side of the strongpoint. Scouts streaked along the flanking hedges, supported by BAR's, machine guns of the infantry, light mortars, and the two machine guns on a tank. When eight or ten riflemen penetrated the enemy defense, resistance crumbled, and 15 prisoners were taken. Three paratroopers who still held out were eliminated by a tank dozer which buried them under five feet of dirt.
Which is a reasonably close description of how the position needs to be attacked. Hex 3,8 is the SE side of the Kruat Corner position. And, after a couple of turns of hitting the position with the full allowance of heavy artillery, that company of FJ is going to be pared down to about a half company.
Quote from: Strela on December 26, 2015, 07:42:39 AM
Moving onto when to use companies vs platoons. Like all things there are advantages & disadvantages. A company will have the largest firepower and a real ability to drive out lesser units when assaulting. The problem is that it will almost always be over the 50% threshold for stacking and taking additional penalties for losses. As the attacker, I usually find the risk of additional losses is outweighed by the extra capability of a full company.
All of which makes sense to me, and reflects what I've learned through experimentation. I'm also trying to get my head around the ways the actual tactics of the time are reflected in the game as they relate to using companies versus platoons, tank-infantry teams, etc. One of the things I'm really enjoying about the Panzer Battles games is that the scale nicely reflects the scale that so many of the after action and historical reports are written. As such, the game is an excellent tool - much more so than squad scale games IMHO - for understanding what actually happened and how the commanders on the scene had to think about what they were doing.
Really nicely done, David. I find I'm thinking more deeply about this game than I have about any other game for quite some time.
This may or may not be as intended, but hexside penalties don't stack, so firing through 2 bocage hexsides still gives "just" a -50% penalty. As visibility through hedgerows is also 2 hexes, this allows you to engage the enemy from a distance. With hedgerow hexsides blocking LOS unless adjacent, artillery spotting would also be very difficult, so the visibility range of 2 is understandable.
Quote from: ComradeP on December 26, 2015, 03:09:36 PM
This may or may not be as intended, but hexside penalties don't stack, so firing through 2 bocage hexsides still gives "just" a -50% penalty. As visibility through hedgerows is also 2 hexes, this allows you to engage the enemy from a distance. With hedgerow hexsides blocking LOS unless adjacent, artillery spotting would also be very difficult, so the visibility range of 2 is understandable.
That's a very good point, ComradeP. I noticed (and wondered) about that myself. I agree that it makes good sense in terms of playability, particularly through artillery spotting.
In a great part thanks to your and David's explanations I've managed to pull off a win in the Hill 192 scenario finally and feel I have a much better understanding of the mechanics of the game. I feel like I'm almost ready to give this a try against another human, now.
I think I may write up a tutorial on some of this, mostly so when I decide to play it again after an extended time away I can more quickly get myself back into understanding what's going on!
Quote from: ComradeP on December 26, 2015, 03:09:36 PM
This may or may not be as intended, but hexside penalties don't stack, so firing through 2 bocage hexsides still gives "just" a -50% penalty. As visibility through hedgerows is also 2 hexes, this allows you to engage the enemy from a distance. With hedgerow hexsides blocking LOS unless adjacent, artillery spotting would also be very difficult, so the visibility range of 2 is understandable.
Yes that's exactly as intended. This allows mortar fire and other indirect fire work once units are revealed.
That's the other subtlety, deciding when to reveal your units particularly when on the defence. ZOCs aren't locking until a unit is visible/detected in a hex. The defender can be in a real quandary on when to stop the attackers advance as that will usually subject them to a barrage of direct and indirect fire.
David
By the way: hedgerow penalties not stacking is also why Panzer division/elite Fallschirmjaeger division units can cause many losses through hedgerows whilst you often can't: as the quality fire modifier is 2.5, and the base bonus for B quality units is 10% and 20% for A quality units, A quality units fire at their "normal" unadjusted value (instead of +50%) when firing through hedgerows.
The bulk of the Allied infantry is C quality, so when they fire at dug-in Germans through hedgerow they can get a 85%-90% or so penalty whereas the Germans only get a -25% or 0% modifier (or likely -35%/-10% as there are numerous -10% terrain types around in hedgerows).
The German mobile units also have higher base SA values to begin with, and particularly the British(-equipped) forces lack the SA value to make much of an impression on dug-in defenders.
Wow the screenshots look very, very good! I am not familiar with this series and wonder what the gameplay is like, differs from the others, ie Panzer Campaigns and Squad Battles which I played briefly eons ago. What I remember was a lot of tedious counter pushing and different phases. Has this been streamlined? Another big one is the lacklustre AI opponent - has this improved any from the earlier series?
I've been playing a few of the Hill 192 scenario until just now when I got a minor victory. It is an extremely bloody scenario, and it pays for the US player to hold fire in their turn - save for tanks, and the AT battery and let the artillery do its work until a disrupt occurs. Shooting at the entrenched paras on the hill is mostly a waste of time, especially as the opfire the paras get shred your units.
The presentation is beautiful, and it is a very nice game.
Dave - I think the bocage hexside rules need a change to permit units in travel mode to follow a road through a bocage hex side without movement penalties, nor vehicles becoming vulnerable either as they are following the road, not breaking through the bocage. Obviously moving close to the enemy in travel mode has its issues, but that is dealt with effectively by the rules anyway.
Another nice feature would be the ability to fire into suspected enemy positions even if it looks like an empty hex, as you can with Squad Battles to simulate suppressive fire for an anticipated attack.
Quote from: Boggit on December 27, 2015, 09:32:32 AM
I've been playing a few of the Hill 192 scenario until just now when I got a minor victory. It is an extremely bloody scenario, and it pays for the US player to hold fire in their turn - save for tanks, and the AT battery and let the artillery do its work until a disrupt occurs. Shooting at the entrenched paras on the hill is mostly a waste of time, especially as the opfire the paras get shred your units.
The presentation is beautiful, and it is a very nice game.
Dave - I think the bocage hexside rules need a change to permit units in travel mode to follow a road through a bocage hex side without movement penalties, nor vehicles becoming vulnerable either as they are following the road, not breaking through the bocage. Obviously moving close to the enemy in travel mode has its issues, but that is dealt with effectively by the rules anyway.
Another nice feature would be the ability to fire into suspected enemy positions even if it looks like an empty hex, as you can with Squad Battles to simulate suppressive fire for an anticipated attack.
Hi Boggit,
Glad you're enjoying the game - we had fun pulling it together.
I went back and had a think about your suggestions regarding bocage and travel mode. I used the
Hill 192 Getting Started scenario as a test base and moved the Shermans in hex (4,5) directly south into hex (4,6) - the same direction as the road and crossing a hedgerow hexside.
As you mention, moving deployed results in the Shermans using
46 movement points (from 72 to 26) and ending with the ability to take a single shot. The tank unit is marked as 'vulnerable' dropping their defense value from 13 down to 6.
If the same unit flips into travel mode (at zero cost), it can move into hex (4,6) but only at a cost of
5 movements points (from 72 to 67). There is no penalty for movement as the road is negating the cost of crossing the hegerow.This leaves enough points to either flip back into a deployed state and take one shot or take two shots without deploying. Importantly, the Shermans still become 'vulnerable' which halves their defense value down to 6.
So as you point out the contentious issue is the 'vulnerable' status. The reason it was included when crossing any hedgerow, whether in travel mode on a road or not is that existing (think roads) or created openings were both easy to hit with direct and indirect fire and also forced vehicles and men to concentrate behind any opening before moving through. These concentrations were expected at road openings and the Germans preregistered a lot of fire here. Essentially 'vulnerable' represents these concentrations being hit as much as the physical act of small penetrations through the hedgerows. Don't forget where there were roads they were only a single vehicle wide in many cases and left little room for maneuver.
Going into travel mode will get you further down the road then being deployed, but comes with all the additional inherent risks you call out.
Suffice to say bocage is bad - it needs to cause issues for the attacker and force them to be methodical and not push too far into the unknown without piling up penalties for doing that.
As far as suppressive direct fire, this is not in game in the main due to the difference in scale in Squad Battles (40 meter hex) vs Panzer Battles (250 meter hex). The suppressive fire that is allowed is indirect fire on hexes that are sighted by ground units. This will be reduced in value due to the area fire impact over the larger hex size.
I hope that all makes sense?
David
I'm enjoying playing this so far. However, I sort of object to have my armour op-fired on by nebelwerfers :-(
Quote from: bob48 on December 31, 2015, 06:52:52 AM
I'm enjoying playing this so far. However, I sort of object to have my armour op-fired on by nebelwerfers :-(
Interesting. Can't happen in the Gold, Juno Sword part of the Grand tactical boardgame anyway. I do like the John Tiller games, but these days I'm absorbed in VASSAL.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on December 17, 2015, 03:47:43 PM
Damn it. I think those planning maps just pushed me over the edge.
Here's a link to get the German situation maps for comparison (scroll down to the bottom for OB-West 1944 links. There's links to other theatres as well):
http://www.wwii-photos-maps.com/home_page_019.htm (http://www.wwii-photos-maps.com/home_page_019.htm)
They are in .tif format and large so you'll need an image editing program to view them. I've been using these and the FUSAG maps to help create the situation maps for CO2.
Now hip deep into this one with the obligatory anti-Doug MP and a couple solos, the highest, best praise I can offer this one is that I may not actually need the third PL I got for Christmas to set up my mega game...
Grogheads has to wire up a deal with Tiller to bring this on a LAN to Origins...think BIG game :D.
Team play of The Longest Day scenario...
Some tips I've discovered or learned from others posts and discussions with players like ComradeP and of course Strela:
- Use concentrated direct fire from tanks and AT guns that are at least two hexes away, but usually no more than four hexes away. By "concentrated" I mean I usually throw an entire squadron/company of tanks at a single trench hex. HMG companies are also useful against trenches from a couple hexes away, though they will take about as many casualties as they inflict. LMGs can be useful, but only if there's no direct-fire reducing terrain (see below).
- Keep your rifle companies behind the tanks until you have reduced the defensive capabilities of the target trench hex. If possible, keep them in terrain where they can't be seen, or at least have some cover.
I like to break up my rifle companies that aren't assaulting into platoons, and keep no more than two in one hex, usually. That way if they take fire, you will usually only get a single platoon to disrupt and not the entire company. The remaining platoons can continue to advance together if moving to attack. - Don't leave rifle companies adjacent to dug-in defenders for multiple turns. They'll just take casualties and lose fatigue and morale to the point where they are useless in the assault.
- Understand that you are probably not going to disrupt A/B morale troops in trenches (or bunkers) with direct fire most of the time. You can, however, reduce their numbers to single digits in a few turns and lower their morale by at least one level. Their fatigue will also probably be yellow.
- Try and hit the reduced trench (or bunker!) with as close to two full rifle companies as you can. If you can add engineers, great. Specialized assault tanks like AVREs and Churchill Crocs can be helpful. I'm not yet convinced that regular tanks in an assault are worth the potential vehicle loss. I need to experiment more.
- Assault with units that have the same morale value. The assault calculation uses the lowest morale value to determine results.
- Be very, very very aware of the terrain/hexside penalties versus direct fire. Take a look at the Kraut Corner hex in the Hill 192 scenario, for example. Between being entrenched (-30%), in grass (-5%) behind hedgerows (-50%) and at a higher elevation (-15%) the combined impact on direct fire from any hex north of the objective is -100%! You can sit there all day and fire on that hex and you will never so much as scratch a single defender.
- If you can bypass a defensive position, do so. Flank the enemy, don't beat your head against them if you don't need to. Properly executed this leaves them isolated and easier to deal with. They may even retreat on their own.
- Mortars are not terribly useful against trenches, but field/medium/heavy guns can cause some casualties and fatigue. It won't be anything like what artillery can do to units in the open, but that steady attack each turn does contribute to reducing numbers in concert with direct fire.
- If you have it, use smoke to block off LOS to your target hex from nearby defenders and screen your HMG, AT Gun, and infantry from retaliatory fire from surrounding hexes. I never have enough smoke. I would fire a ton of it every turn if I had it.
- If you can isolate the target hex with ZOCs it's worth it, as long as you leave a retreat path for the defenders. The reduction in defender morale is worth it, but they have to be able to retreat or they will stay there and fight it out. Once through the defensive line, it becomes easier to isolate other positions
Again, I'm not that great a player, and these are just the things I've worked out myself and learned from reading posts by others. YMMV and I may well have some wrong assumptions here. I'd be interested to hear from others using these and similar tactics.
I have held off on this one, but maybe time to spend some money.
Quote from: MengJiao on December 31, 2015, 10:05:09 AM
Quote from: bob48 on December 31, 2015, 06:52:52 AM
I'm enjoying playing this so far. However, I sort of object to have my armour op-fired on by nebelwerfers :-(
Interesting. Can't happen in the Gold, Juno Sword part of the Grand tactical boardgame anyway. I do like the John Tiller games, but these days I'm absorbed in VASSAL.
I was so WRONG. I should have bought this game in December. Oh well. It is a great game and I'm glad I finally got it.
Quote from: MengJiao on April 22, 2016, 09:25:36 AM
Quote from: MengJiao on December 31, 2015, 10:05:09 AM
Quote from: bob48 on December 31, 2015, 06:52:52 AM
I'm enjoying playing this so far. However, I sort of object to have my armour op-fired on by nebelwerfers :-(
Interesting. Can't happen in the Gold, Juno Sword part of the Grand tactical boardgame anyway. I do like the John Tiller games, but these days I'm absorbed in VASSAL.
I was so WRONG. I should have bought this game in December. Oh well. It is a great game and I'm glad I finally got it.
Mengjiao,
Glad you're enjoying it!
As a further update to all, the first patch for Normandy should be out sometime in the coming week. We just got the long awaited update from John Tiller and just need to do our normal Q&A thing...
I'll post more here when it's released.
David
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on January 02, 2016, 02:42:21 PM
I have held off on this one, but maybe time to spend some money.
I spent the money and am now playing Operation Bluecoat -- a great scenario, though I made the 23rd Hussars A level troops and added the 2nd Household Cavalry. At the moment it's 9:30 on July 30 and VIII Corps has only started its breakthroughs. BuddaBudda.
I'll try to avoid gushing and seeming like a fan boy, but this really is one of the best platoon scale WW2 computer games around. The Kursk game is great as well, though I think this Normandy game has the more interesting scenarios. I really enjoy how the game really illustrates what you read in the various histories.
Still on my wish list...some day will pull the trigger on this
Out of curiosity how does this compare to something like flash point campaign series? This one does look interesting.
Quote from: shodan on April 26, 2016, 07:38:50 PM
Out of curiosity how does this compare to something like flash point campaign series? This one does look interesting.
The two games are basically the same scale, in that the basic unit is the platoon. FPC:RS uses 500m hexes if I recall, while PzB uses 250m hexes.
The biggest difference is that Panzer Battles uses a traditional "I go, you go" turn-based approach, with fixed turns of 30 minutes, and where you will actually be moving each counter hex by hex to where you want it. When attacking in PzB, you will designate specific targets for each attacking unit, either fire combat or assault. Defensive fire is automated, however. Very much a translation of board game mechanics into a computer format.
FPC:RS uses a simultaneous movement system ("WEGO") where you plot your moves, your opponent (or the AI) plots his moves, and then things are simultaneously resolved. Combat is also automatic in FPC:RS. Of course, the most striking difference is the variable and asymmetric turn length in FPC:RS, simulating OODA loops and really emphasizing command and control differences between forces.
Both are absolutely superb games and game systems. I've spent probably the majority of my gaming time this year playing one or the other.
Flashpoint campaigns is mostly a command simulator, you have almost no control over your units. Basically all you can do is tell your units where to go and attempt to time their routes. The game focuses itself on what its like to see your plan to go hell and watch because your OODA loop is borked and you have to wait for 20 more ingame minutes before you can change the plan.
Panzer battles is a lot more traditional, you basically always direct control over your units and you choose who to attack and how.
The primary difference is turn resolution. Panzer campaigns is static, while flashpoint campaigns is dynamic, where the time to give orders is determined by a variety of factors. It is ridiculously unique in this aspect
Quote from: Hofstadter on April 26, 2016, 08:31:42 PM
Flashpoint campaigns is mostly a command simulator, you have almost no control over your units. Basically all you can do is tell your units where to go and attempt to time their routes. The game focuses itself on what its like to see your plan to go hell and watch because your OODA loop is borked and you have to wait for 20 more ingame minutes before you can change the plan.
Panzer battles is a lot more traditional, you basically always direct control over your units and you choose who to attack and how.
The primary difference is turn resolution. Panzer campaigns is static, while flashpoint campaigns is dynamic, where the time to give orders is determined by a variety of factors. It is ridiculously unique in this aspect
Got it, good explanation will have to look at picking this one some time soon.
Quote from: panzerde on April 26, 2016, 02:33:28 PM
I'll try to avoid gushing and seeming like a fan boy, but this really is one of the best platoon scale WW2 computer games around. The Kursk game is great as well, though I think this Normandy game has the more interesting scenarios. I really enjoy how the game really illustrates what you read in the various histories.
Indeed. You can for example use PzBN to further elucidate what happened to KG Meyer (the mobile group of the 352 infantry division). The KG is very well defined in the Gold Juno Sword Grand Tactical Boardgame. In PzBN it turns up in the Villers-Sec/Moving inland scenario. In reality, the KG was somehow wiped out on the afternoon of D-day by troops moving inland from Gold Beach. Some accounts mention that the KG had been up all night looking for paratroopers and perhaps was a bit sleepy when they ran into the 50th Div and the 8th Armored Bde. BUT there they are in PzBN!
Not sleepy at all. In reality the KG appears to have been wiped out before it got up to the Villers-Sec ridge, but in the PzBN scenario, the KG navigates that part of the world with no trouble. Anyway, I could do a submap from the giant map and see what can be done with KG Meyer.
Getting the urge to grab one of these.. Leaning more towards Kursk, cause I'd hate to be 'bogged down in the Hedgrows', or is that really not the case with this one?
There are definitely some scenarios with hedgerows, primarily the American scenarios covering up through Cobra. Certainly some hedgerows in the Commonwealth scenarios, but there is plenty of the fighting around Caen that takes place in more open ground.
Both games represent a variety of terrain types, and understanding how to use them or deal with them is key to the game. Where Normandy has hedgerows, Kursk has endless belts of mines and Soviet bunkers all over the place. Both can be dealt with pretty effectively, but you have to learn the tactics.
Quote from: panzerde on April 27, 2016, 05:00:34 PM
There are definitely some scenarios with hedgerows, primarily the American scenarios covering up through Cobra. Certainly some hedgerows in the Commonwealth scenarios, but there is plenty of the fighting around Caen that takes place in more open ground.
Apparently Operation Perch has three scenarios. Those could play out to be interesting.
Groggy
Quote from: MengJiao on April 27, 2016, 11:27:06 AM
Quote from: panzerde on April 26, 2016, 02:33:28 PM
I'll try to avoid gushing and seeming like a fan boy, but this really is one of the best platoon scale WW2 computer games around. The Kursk game is great as well, though I think this Normandy game has the more interesting scenarios. I really enjoy how the game really illustrates what you read in the various histories.
Indeed. You can for example use PzBN to further elucidate what happened to KG Meyer (the mobile group of the 352 infantry division). The KG is very well defined in the Gold Juno Sword Grand Tactical Boardgame. In PzBN it turns up in the Villers-Sec/Moving inland scenario. In reality, the KG was somehow wiped out on the afternoon of D-day by troops moving inland from Gold Beach. Some accounts mention that the KG had been up all night looking for paratroopers and perhaps was a bit sleepy when they ran into the 50th Div and the 8th Armored Bde. BUT there they are in PzBN!
Not sleepy at all. In reality the KG appears to have been wiped out before it got up to the Villers-Sec ridge, but in the PzBN scenario, the KG navigates that part of the world with no trouble. Anyway, I could do a submap from the giant map and see what can be done with KG Meyer.
KG Meyer was activated very early after the reports of parachutists near Isigny-sur-Mer, i.e. the US drops. Meyer's force was the primary reserve for the Omaha to Sword region. They moved from their garrison areas well south of Gold Beach (see scenario #0606_10 The Longest Day for their starting positions) and were almost at Isigny-sur-Mer when they were recalled because of the reported Allied landings at Omaha & Gold Beach. They backtracked with one battalion sent to reinforce Omaha (as shown in #0606_08 Omaha Beach). The remainder of the regiment with attached Stug's arrived at Bayeaux at approximately 14:00 hours and then moved towards Villiers-le-Sec where it was destroyed by the British moving inland. It was a heavy defeat with the equivalent of a reinforced regiment wiped out (see scenario #0606_03 The Road to Bayeux for the British landings at Gold and the subsequent fighting with KG Meyer). The #0606_09 Villiers-le-Sec scenario is semi hypothetical as KG Meyer is shown as arriving full strength at 17:00 hours. This was not the case as it had taken losses due to air in the advance march. What this scenario was meant to show was an example of the kind of meeting engagement that happened in the first day or two of the invasion.
One final footnote, Oberst Leutenant Meyer was killed in the dramatic engagement that destroyed his command on the afternoon of June 6th, 1944.
David
Hi All,
We've just released the awaited 1.01 patch for Panzer Battles - Normandy.
http://www.johntillersoftware.com/updates/BattlesNormandy_101_upd.exe
Changes for Battles of Normandy V1.01
Bug Fixes
- Units could use a bridge while in travel mode to enter an obstacle and then exit the hex, rather than lose their whole movement allowance. This has been corrected and units will now lose all their movement points if they move into an obstacle hex
- Engineer units were in some cases isolated when in a minefield - this should no longer occur
- Engineer units will not clear a minefield in a turn that they recover from disruption
- Adjacent engineers no longer remove isolation for units in minefields
- Off map artillery was not firing during the defensive fire phase - this will now occur at the same frequency as on map artillery
- Engineers that attempt to damage a bridge or AT ditch will reveal themselves if currently concealed
- Units can no longer combine if in mismatched travel modes
- File mismatch due to different encryption setting during PBEM - fixed
- Campaign auto-advance on wrong password entry - fixed
Enhancements
- New parameter file entry - Fatigue factor. Used for scaling fatigue accumulation. Set at 2.0 for Normandy & Kursk. Will be 3.0 for future titles to match the fatigue calculations in Panzer Campaigns. 3.0 is the more appropriate value to use, but none of the Kursk & Normandy scenarios were tested with the higher value
- New on counter broken and disrupted markings - visible when stacked and unstacked.
- New Getting Started documentation, including Campaign Primer and Terrain & Combat tables
- Updated General Help guide with a revised layout and additional information.
- Updated User guide with a revised layout and additional information. All manuals are a work in progress and will continue to be rationalised over time.
Order of Battle Changes
- Luftwaffe 42 76mm Gun btty (hs) Soft attack value reduced to 9 from 39.
- Corrected - Is Support- flags for heavy mortars in 5. Fallschirm-Jäger Division & FJ-Regt 6
- American & French M-21 Halftrack 81mm mortar soft attack value reduced to 10 to align with other 81mm mortars
Graphics Changes
- Regiments in British, British Airborne, Canadian and Polish are now show as battalions, conforming to the correct unit size.
- Corrected incorrect alternative graphics in US airborne
- New -small- terrain features. All files are under \Maps\Map Variants\Small. Copy all the 11 files into the map directory and overwrite the existing. To revert to the original graphics, copy the files out of \Maps\Map Variants\Original directory back into the Map directory.
Scenario Changes
- #01 Getting Started: Hill 192 - Kraut Corner Missing entrenchments in hex (5,8) added. All entrenchments now halved in value i.e. marked as vacated.
- #02 Getting Started: Utah Beach Erroneous reinforcements and releases removed. Game length extended to 12 turns. Selected defences now begin disrupted.
- #0607_02: Authie - 12th SS Riposte Corrected scenario name
- #0614_01: Return to Carentan Tweaks for balance
- #0622_01: Cherbourg Landfront Corrected scenario name
- #0622_01a: Cherbourg Landfront Corrected scenario name
- #0622_02: Cherbourg - The Right Flank Corrected scenario name
- #0626_01: Operation Epsom - Day One Replaced DD tanks with standard Shermans
- #0629_01: Operation Epsom - Day Four Corrected scenario name
- #0711_01: Le Dezert Added a supply source in (48,16), 60th Regt, 9th Infantry added
- #0711_01a: Le Dezert Added a supply source in (48,16), 60th Regt, 9th Infantry added
- #0711_02: Hill 192 - Battle in the Bocage Missing entrenchments in hex (5,11) & (6,10) added.
- #0718_03: Operation Goodwood - Fifes Corrected -fixed- reinforcements
- #0719_01: Goodwood Day 2 Corrected scenario name
- #0803_01: la Bistiere - Tigers Marsch! Removed redundant British smoke. 3 turns added for HTH play
- #0803_01a: la Bistiere - Tigers Marsch! New vs AI scenario
- #0803_02: Les Grands Bonfaits - Nedforce Updated description
- #0808_04: Gaumesnil Corrected scenario name
- #0808_05: Cauvicourt - Blooding the Polish Corrected scenario name
- #0809_01: Worthington Force Corrected scenario name
- #0811_01: Barenton - V Corps Strikes Corrected missing stream hex sides in hex (11,220 & (11,29), II SS Pzkorps HQ now off map
- #0812_01: Forêt d'Ecouves Corrected scenario name
- #0820_01: Falaise Corrected scenario name
- CG_2US_Armd_6: Barenton II SS Pzkorps HQ now off map
- CG_2US_Armd_6a: Barenton II SS Pzkorps HQ now off map
- CG_2US_Armd_6b: Barenton II SS Pzkorps HQ now off map
- CG_2US_Armd_6c: Barenton Corrected ownership of trenches
Map Changes
- Alternate small map graphics included
- Heavy Bridge removed from hex (85,108)
- Medium Bridges added at (242,198) and (246,197)
- Small Bridges added at (232,199), (236,203) & (237,204)
- All rail bridges converted to small bridges to reflect their poor ability to carry vehicles.
- Numerous place name updates
- Rail lines removed as per the below. Thanks to Chris Haigh who did all the research here. Most of these were tramways and were in the actual adjacent road - most closed before the war;
- Isigny - Grandcamp - St Laurent - Le Molay/Littry - Balleroy - (Closed 1929)
- Balleroy - Bayeaux (only shown on map going as far as Subles) - (Closed 1930)
- Balleroy - St Martin des Basacres (358,337) - Closed (1930)
- Bayeaux - Ryes - Arromanches - (Closed 1930/1)
- Ryes - Courseulles - (Closed 1931)
- Luc sur Mer - Ouistreham - Benouville - Caen (shown only going as far as Blainville) - (Closed 1944)
- Pont de Ranville (actually Benouville crossing Pegasus bridge!) - Dives - (Closed 1932)
- Caen (west station) - Potigny (547,336) - Falaise - (Closed 1932/3)
Changes for Battles of Normandy V1.0
- Added Hard Fire Modifier to balance hard attacks.
- Fixed AA range calculation to use new range effect.
- Added fire benefit when direct firing at a target at a lower elevation.
- Added Highligh Recon Units feature.
- Modified unknown strength to show highest digit when unit is in unobstructed terrain.
- Adjusted reporting for air attacks.
- Corrected hex stack reporting when a wreck is in the hex
- Corrected a crash bug when the last man/gun/vehicle is destroyed by defensive fire
- Corrected a fog of war bug when right clicking
- Included a check that all off board artillery is not placed on the map.
- Any fixed unit that is fired on will now instantly un-fix
Thanks,
David
This kind of support does both you and the company great credit.
Thank you for it.
Very nice! Thanks David! Looking forward to replaying some of these scenarios with the changes.
I'm really torn on the two games of this series. I love battles on the Eastern Front so the Kursk game would seem to dovetail nicely with my interests. The Normandy game has a lot more scenarios from invasions to airborne drops and tank battles. Having $40.00 to buy one leaves me anguishing over which one to purchase. Additionally the system probably has developed from the first release to the second game. Totally torn here. Should I wait for the third release for a more interesting and systemically better developed title? I'm sure either will be great. Maybe someone who has both can fill me in on their thoughts?
Also the download, what kind of DRM is it. Can I use it on more than one of my personal computers? Can I back it up on my jump drive? Is there a DRM key? Can't find anything on the Tiller website to allude to the procedure before I purchase and download. One last question if I purchase will I be able to download immediately or is there human intervention I have to wait for to get the download?
Thanks in advance for your answers.
Quote from: Blastpop on June 14, 2016, 02:26:41 PM
I'm really torn on the two games of this series. I love battles on the Eastern Front so the Kursk game would seem to dovetail nicely with my interests. The Normandy game has a lot more scenarios from invasions to airborne drops and tank battles. Having $40.00 to buy one leaves me anguishing over which one to purchase. Additionally the system probably has developed from the first release to the second game. Totally torn here. Should I wait for the third release for a more interesting and systemically better developed title? I'm sure either will be great. Maybe someone who has both can fill me in on their thoughts?
If I were to get just one,
and my interest in both theaters was equal, I'd get Normandy. In terms of mechanics the games are very close, though Normandy has a few features and graphical improvements over Kursk. I also find the mix of scenarios in Normandy more engaging for exactly the reasons you cite. However, if you have more interest in one theater than another, get that one. They are similar enough and they both have great replay value.
Quote
Also the download, what kind of DRM is it. Can I use it on more than one of my personal computers? Can I back it up on my jump drive? Is there a DRM key? Can't find anything on the Tiller website to allude to the procedure before I purchase and download. One last question if I purchase will I be able to download immediately or is there human intervention I have to wait for to get the download?
Thanks in advance for your answers.
Probably best for Strela to field the details of this. In terms of DRM JTS uses a one-time online code activation where at instal you need to provide a serial number, and you have to be online to do that. Thereafter, it doesn't bug you. I've not had a DRM failure where I've had to reactivate an installed game, ever. I've also never had any problems reactivating a game that I reinstalled, like when reformatting a drive or setting up a new computer.
I definitely back up the downloaded installer elsewhere and I run regular backups of my computer that backup the installed game; I would assume if the destination for your backup is a jump drive it would work. As an IT professional I'd caution you against using a jump drive for backup, but that's nothing to do with the game.
Downloads are basically immediate after purchase. I've bought JTS games at all hours and received the download email and link within a couple of minutes at least. I suppose that they may have enslaved Oompah Loompahs or something doing manual processing at all hours (I would, because that's what Oompah Loompahs deserve), but I suspect it's completely automated.
Hope that helps!
Quote from: Blastpop on June 14, 2016, 02:26:41 PM
I'm really torn on the two games of this series. I love battles on the Eastern Front so the Kursk game would seem to dovetail nicely with my interests. The Normandy game has a lot more scenarios from invasions to airborne drops and tank battles. Having $40.00 to buy one leaves me anguishing over which one to purchase. Additionally the system probably has developed from the first release to the second game. Totally torn here. Should I wait for the third release for a more interesting and systemically better developed title? I'm sure either will be great. Maybe someone who has both can fill me in on their thoughts?
Also the download, what kind of DRM is it. Can I use it on more than one of my personal computers? Can I back it up on my jump drive? Is there a DRM key? Can't find anything on the Tiller website to allude to the procedure before I purchase and download. One last question if I purchase will I be able to download immediately or is there human intervention I have to wait for to get the download?
Thanks in advance for your answers.
Hi Blastpop,
Thanks for looking at our games. I think Panzerde has done a good job of the reasons to consider either - go with what interests you the most. There is a lot of free documentation at John Tiller's site to help you with the decision.
One comment to your 'more developed' comment. John Tiller patches every game in the series up to the latest standard. We haven't done that for Kursk yet, but you can expect that all the enhancements that are in Normandy will soon be available in Kursk. That covers the actual way the game runs and I can honestly say the research and scenario work are on par. The team who built both games have done prior titles for Tiller and Panzer Battles is definitely a step up on those, but there is not a deficit in Kursk compared to Normandy. Probably the biggest difference is the breadth of topic. Kursk covered 10 or so days of the same battle, Normandy covers over two months on multiple fronts - they are different beasts and we will probably not do as expansive title as Normandy again. One other thing on Kursk - you will find scenarios and situations that no one else has covered from a gaming perspective - it's not just 'attack the bunker lines' that everyone expects. There was quite a bit of open ground fighting particularly after the first two days.
The other reason we haven't released the Kursk patch is we have some developments underway currently that will significantly enhance both released titles and we want to co-ordinate with that - more on that to follow.
As far as DRM, it's been pretty unobtrusive. You get a standard installation exe and a game key. You can back these up anywhere you would like. Once you install the game it will ask for the key to be entered. This does a one time check that it is a valid key to the back-end (i.e. you have to be online only at this time) and then it will never check again UNLESS you install on a different machine.
Finally, there was originally a limit to the number of machines the key could be installed on. I believe that has been significantly loosened (I have never heard of any one hitting a limit) so that you can install the game on multiple machines. The key will be validated only the first time the game is installed on a machine. As far as abuse of keys - we can monitor the number of times a key has been used and if excessive, reach out to the registered user/email for that key. Again something I have not heard of happening.
So all in all, it's a pretty liberal system.
As far as download it should be pretty quick - I believe it's automated in that you're sent an email once you're payment is cleared. The email will have the download link and key. As far as Doug's enslaved Oompah Loompah's, I am on the other side of the world (to the US) and they haven't employed us to cover the night shift (yet!)!!! ::)
Hope that helps and I hope you decide to buy one of the titles.
David
FWIW, I have both games, and like them very much. Like Strela says they have a lot of varied situations, and I agree that playing the Kursk game there is much more to it than just fighting through bunker lines and mines. Most of the scenarios from both games represent every from battalion to corps size (and sometimes a bit bigger). If you like fighting with platoon/company units as your manoeuver unit, these are great games IMHO. O0
I bought this game a few weeks ago and must say it is an excellent game. The scale and level of complexity is perfect. Finally a game with the beach landing and para missions of D-day I always wanted. :smitten:
One day I might even play "The Longest Day". :idiot2:
It is my first John Tiller game and have a few questions regarding stuff I couldn't fins in the manual:
I can't find a menu to start campaigns and variable scenarios (like previewed earlier in this thread). How do I start them?
Is it possible to cancel a planned air strike and replan it?
Is there any way of knowing what equipment infantry units have? Surely combat strength can't be based on manpower and morale only?
Is there any way of knowing the range of possible fire for a unit?
Is there any way of always having the "hotspot hex" terrain info displayed? It is a hassle to right click on it all the time.
Why does an enemy spotted and abandoned trench/bunke disappear from the map and only show up when you position a unit on the hex?
Why is it possible to know the status of mines in a hex occupied by the enemy even with fog of war on? Seems unlikely.
What is"no valid targets in hex" caused by?
Based on experience with John Tiller Software games, the campaign is a separate exe.
The campaign is a seperate .exe, the variable scenarios are listed in the lower part of the regular scenario list.
I'm not sure if there's a hotkey to cancel planned air strikes.
Aside from looking at weapon an infantryman is holding in the picture in the unit info sidebar, I don't think you can tell what kind of equipment infantry units have. Soft and hard attack values are based on historical equipment, however.
The range can be viewed by clicking and holding the right mouse button on the unit in the unit info sidebar. You can also go to view>shade>maximum range. Red is the hard attack range, green is the soft attack range. If the unit has a minimum range, hexes close or adjacent to the unit will be blacked out.
You mean viewing the info you see when right clicking on a hex in the sidebar? I'm not sure if that can be brought up through other means.
This models units forgetting about abandoned positions, which has some issues as it also means your units might run into the same minefield over and over after having spotted it and moving away, but it's the way things work.
Minefields shouldn't be visible to you unless you're on top of them or adjacent to them. If you're adjacent to them, you could say knowing their strength is an abstraction of a forward patrol probing how strong the enemy defensive positions are.
The "no valid targets in the hex" error comes up when targeting a unit of a target type (hard/soft) that is out of hard/soft attack range of the selected unit.
Thanks for the reply. Regarding spotting mines in enemy hexes, I have seen that from not adjacent hexes.
Another thing I didn't find in the manual is how the advantage setting when starting a scenario affects gameplay. Does it give higher quality units, perform better in combat, more units, lesser fatigue, or?
I have also noted, which seems like a bug is that if you activate one of your units and try to move it to a hex far away and out of sight, the text in the lower left hand corner will say "can't move to a hex that contains an enemy unit" - which basically breaks the fog of war concept. Not that it is a major thing, but still.
I'm not entirely sure how minefield spotting works. Note that a minefield has a "side" that it belongs to and that you can always spot minefields belonging to your side (Axis, Russian or Allied).
I'm not sure what the advantage slider actually does and, curiously, can't find a thread about it at The Blitz using the search function.
I just tested it in a small scenario and I only get that error if the unit is actually adjacent to an enemy unit when I trace a path to a hex with an enemy unit. Maybe you've found a bug where it happens over long distances, I'd have to check.
New to JT's games so maybe it is the unfamiliarity of the system but, I'm finding using the many menus/selections/actions/orders cumbersome. Are there shortcuts/hotkeys that help?
Keys for things like visible hexes and reachable hexes etc.?
Thanks in advance
There's a list of shortcut keys in the manual. The PDF of the manual is in your game install folder, specifically you want pzb.pdf. Shortcuts are on page 56.
Awesome. I did a search through the user manual but didnt come up with anything.
Thanks again
Quote from: Moreb on August 07, 2016, 09:12:32 PM
Awesome. I did a search through the user manual but didnt come up with anything.
Thanks again
It's kind of confusing - there are two "user manuals:" user.pdf and pzb.pdf. Both are required reading to fully understand the mechanics and the UI.
There's a lot of other really useful stuff in there too, including documentation for the various game editors, some incredible designer's notes, and an extensive visual order of battle. Some really good stuff!
Wonder why they don't put the hotkey shortcut next to the command in the menus like CSME does it's a big help with learning the shortcuts and looks like there is enough room.
Quote from: -budd- on August 07, 2016, 09:49:06 PM
Wonder why they don't put the hotkey shortcut next to the command in the menus like CSME does it's a big help with learning the shortcuts and looks like there is enough room.
Agreed. that'd be a worthwhile addition to the engine. I'd like to see a few more hotkeys too. There are a few game functions that don't have hotkeys that probably should. Panzer Battles is better than some of the other JTS game series in that respect, but still not perfect.
Patience, guys. ;)
Berto!! No....., it can't be, PzB too!!?? :D
Quote from: berto on August 08, 2016, 02:28:57 AM
Patience, guys. ;)
Yes Patience, guys but not too much.
Some significant announcements very soon...!
David
Wellllll...color me intrigued!
That sounds interesting, how do I express my impatience :D
This has a "you got your peanut butter on my chocolate" kind of feel to it! O0
Hopefully a shortcut will be made for Show Units on/off. That is the one I notice missing the most.
Strela,
Haven't we reached the statute of limitations on soon yet. :)
Quote from: -budd- on August 19, 2016, 09:37:41 AM
Strela,
Haven't we reached the statute of limitations on soon yet. :)
I did say very soon didn't I!!!
I'll see if there is anything that can be said over the weekend, otherwise it will be even 'more soon'!!!
David
Quote from: Strela on August 19, 2016, 11:52:51 AM
Quote from: -budd- on August 19, 2016, 09:37:41 AM
Strela,
Haven't we reached the statute of limitations on soon yet. :)
I did say very soon didn't I!!!
I'll see if there is anything that can be said over the weekend, otherwise it will be even 'more soon'!!!
David
Thx for the reply, going to have to go look up what level of impatience is appropriate for "even more soon" ;D
To quote The Smiths: "How soon is now?".
Q: "When will 'then-now' be 'now-now'?"
A: "Soon!"
Q: When will "soon" be now?
A: Soon.