Hi,
Saw this on FB, .. so, I though I would post here. Please give it a YES on Steam Greenlight .. :)
Announcing Cold Waters
Spiritual Successor to the Microprose Classic "Red Storm Rising"
After tracking a Soviet landing force bound for Iceland it is time to plan your attack. Do you silently close in to torpedo the landing ships and escape during the resulting chaos? Or strike with long-range missiles but risk counterattack from the enemy escorts? Have you detected them all, could another submarine be out there listening for you? Has the hunter become the hunted? Will you survive the Cold Waters?
Inspired by the 1988 classic "Red Storm Rising", take command a nuclear submarine in a desperate attempt to prevent "mutually assured destruction" when the Cold War gets hot and WWIII begins.
You will be tasked with intercepting convoys, amphibious landings, insertion missions and battling it out with enemy warships, submarines and aircraft. Thankfully, an arsenal of wire-guided torpedoes, anti-ship and cruise missiles and the occasional SEAL team are on board to keep the Iron Curtain at bay.
Major Features:
- Real-time naval combat
- Over 40 classes of ships and submarines all meticulously researched
- Dynamic Campaign where your performance matters
- Realistic sonar model
- Authentic Soviet combat tactics
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=770691721
Looks good .. :)
Cheers
Tom
Voted, Red Storm Rising was an amazing game.....
Ditto and ditto. :D
Looks hawt. Voted.
Voted!
Water too cold. Couldn't get far enough in to vote.
Definitely cool. I loved Red Storm Rising at the time even though it looks totally dire now. I'll be voting. O0
Oh hell yes!
Funny enough I had RSR booted up about a year ago on my old laptop. It's still a fun game, but the graphics are hard to tolerate.
If these guys can pull off that old magic, this might be a new favorite.
Voted - looks cool.
Made by the same people as atlantic fleet ? Like that game but hopefully this is a little more wargame ?
Quote from: Toonces on September 28, 2016, 03:02:24 PM
Oh hell yes!
Oh, hell yes x10!
:coolsmiley:
I can tell it's using the Atlantic Fleet engine. Which is a great sign.
Didn't expect a Cold War naval strategy game from you guys. With dynamic campaign, even. This is awesome!
Take My Money!!
Thumbs up!
Quote from: Toonces on September 28, 2016, 03:02:24 PM
If these guys can pull off that old magic, this might be a new favorite.
+ 10,000
I'm in but I doubt Putin will approve. :tickedoff:
I'd like to see the UI, this looks to be an arcade game and not a "sub-sim" ala Silent Hunter. I never played RSR, was it more more "game" and less sim (i.e., light)?
I played RSR an enormous amount. Nothing better than shooting off your torps at a 45 degree angle to your target, letting them go for a loong time, then angling them in.
If you had skill, you could keep them below the layer, then pop them up at the last minute. I had many, many attacks where I was never detected.
Quote from: GJK on September 28, 2016, 06:55:36 PM
I'd like to see the UI, this looks to be an arcade game and not a "sub-sim" ala Silent Hunter. I never played RSR, was it more more "game" and less sim (i.e., light)?
More game, less sim.
Maybe like Janes Fleet Command or Naval War Arctic Circle.
Great news. A big yes vote.
Quote from: jomni on September 28, 2016, 08:22:39 PM
Maybe like Janes Fleet Command or Naval War Arctic Circle.
You run a single sub, as in RSR, around the N. Atlantic from how it's described. Not a group or anything.
Like a sub sim "lite". With dynamic campaign! O0
While RSR was based on the real stuff, it played out in a faster Hollywood style & with more abstracted controls. Which was fine because it was action-filled fun, as opposed to long stretches of sonar listening, and solution slider playing, in the
688i/Sub Command/Dangerous Waters series (which I also greatly enjoyed).
In RSR most encounters featured lots of weapons fire, decoys, and dodging weapon seeker cones after a short period of firming up a firing solution and IDs. Great fun. I still want to play that nearly 30-year old game, to this day. Luckily we'll be having this similar one coming soon™. :smiley6600:
Between
Cold Waters and the digital version of
Check Your Six! &
CY6: Jet Age, I'll be in new nostalgic heaven.
Ok thanks for the info.
Quote from: jomni on September 28, 2016, 09:25:50 PM
Ok thanks for the info.
Although, while you only run your chosen sub, you will definitely encounter enemy surface & sub groups. Being a sneaky nuke sub, you'll often be in unfriendly waters and outnumbered. :)
I loved playing RSR way back: Red Storm Rising gameplay (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeEFfD98YRE)
Yeah, I think Nefaro nailed it. I would call RSR a sub sim lite. But it was just a hell of a lot of fun to play, and is in fact still fun. If they could just modernize it a little bit, mostly graphics and some of the UI conventions we take for granted now, it would still be an awesome game. The dynamic campaign layer was brilliant.
Why other games don't do this I just don't know; it's so much more entertaining than single scripted missions.
I'm surprised that so many of us played Red Storm Rising. I loved it on my Amiga back in the day but I thought I was the only Nerd in the world playing it.
You were the only nerd playing it... the rest of us were cool. :coolsmiley:
RSR was awesome. Loved all those Microprose games from back in the day. I hope this game is just as cool.
Everybody who votes to have this game Greenlit is now being tracked by Russian para-governmental hacker groups. Webcam footage of each of you, unknowingly recorded while you were surfing porn at some point in the next month, will be posting to your Facebook accounts shortly before the US Presidential election in November.
O0
Quote from: Capn Darwin on September 29, 2016, 08:31:28 AM
RSR was awesome. Loved all those Microprose games from back in the day. I hope this game is just as cool.
I played the hell out of those Microprose games on my C64.
But I'm quite sure Red Storm Rising got more hours than any other. Probably even more than Sid Meier's Pirates, which I hadn't thought possible up until that point. Next highest was probably Gunship. But RSR eventually held the crown. I also recall picking up the GDW version of Harpoon about the same time. O0
Still remember that RSR red box, with the red manual and the red floppy disk. Fond memories of wasting my youth, staring too closely at a tiny tv screen, and turning into a troglodyte albino cave dweller whilst dodging fat little pixel torpedoes. ;D
Schweet. So voted.
Anybody remember what the original RSR went for? Was it north of $30? I remember having a real hard time choosing between it and The Pool of Radiance at Toy's-R-Us because I couldn't afford both.
I tried to get RSR to work a couple of years ago: no dice. What a fabulous game.
I never was able to get as deeply into any of the Silent Hunter or other sub sim games as I was with RSR and Sid Meier's Silent Service.
SMSS is even older than RSR, but also a great game. It was less focused than RSR as a Pacific War American sub career simulator, and there weren't as many target ship types, at least in typical battles, but what a great game. More balanced than RSR, where your boat is just so crap-diddly hot that in most battles you could just toy with the Russkies and choose what sort of poison to administer to them and when. (Exception: going up against those Kilo diesel subs, which could usually get the drop on you.)
Silent Service...what a great game. One of my very first sims.
Quote from: mirth on September 29, 2016, 12:51:08 PM
Silent Service...what a great game. One of my very first sims.
Talk about white-knuckling it: doing corkscrew turns in shallow water at flank speed to dodge depth charges. Or letting fly at 500 yards with a Japanese tin can bearing down for the ram at 30 knots: you miss, you die. I haven't experienced that kind of tension very often in a computer game.
I wonder if my imagination was just more forgiving back then.
Can't Greenlight it at the moment, but I'll try to do so later. Played many a campaign of RSR on my C64.
Ditto Silent Service and then later SS2 on the PC. I still dream about crazy sub action (often in rivers for no clear reason ??? :crazy2: ), and those dreams go straight back to the SS series.
Cold Waters gets the green (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/updates/770691721/1475650833) O0
Quote from: steve58 on October 06, 2016, 02:52:51 PM
Cold Waters gets the green (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/updates/770691721/1475650833) O0
woot!
Sweet!
O0
And there was much rejoicing.
O0
Yaaaaaaaaa O0
Maybe its getting close?
http://store.steampowered.com/app/541210/?snr=1_7_7_comingsoon_150_2 (http://store.steampowered.com/app/541210/?snr=1_7_7_comingsoon_150_2)
Man, I have to admit, I am too excited for this game. I sure hope it is awesome.
By awesome, I don't mean realistic. I have realistic with CMANO. I'm looking for FUN.
If this can really be a "spiritual successor to Red Storm Rising" I am all-in.
Mid-2017...could be soon! :dreamer:
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on April 10, 2017, 03:19:32 PM
Maybe its getting close?
http://store.steampowered.com/app/541210/?snr=1_7_7_comingsoon_150_2 (http://store.steampowered.com/app/541210/?snr=1_7_7_comingsoon_150_2)
Sweet Moses, I hope so!
Nipples hardening.
:smitten:
Isn't this like a 'tablet' game? Or is it totally different from Atlantic Fleet?
I didn't get the sense it was a tablet game.
Quote from: Tuna on April 10, 2017, 06:21:56 PM
Isn't this like a 'tablet' game? Or is it totally different from Atlantic Fleet?
The game engine started as that, a couple games back (Pacific Fleet) IIRC. Then Atlantic Fleet was similarly another iPad game, or some such, but they added more content, and upgraded the graphics, for the PC version of AF.
From what I gather, this one is made for PC from the start. Although it obviously still uses the same evolved game engine as a basis.
^ Ah, I didn't realize that. Here's hoping.
Every time I see this thread I think of this song.
I'm in. I haven't had a proper ass-kicking by the Soviet Navy since Red Storm Rising did it so well back in the Commodore Amiga days.
In a thread on the discussion (forum) page the Killerfish Dev answered a release date query and said Mid-May.
I just hope it has a save feature!
Quote from: Nefaro on April 10, 2017, 07:58:54 PM
Quote from: Tuna on April 10, 2017, 06:21:56 PM
Isn't this like a 'tablet' game? Or is it totally different from Atlantic Fleet?
The game engine started as that, a couple games back (Pacific Fleet) IIRC. Then Atlantic Fleet was similarly another iPad game, or some such, but they added more content, and upgraded the graphics, for the PC version of AF.
From what I gather, this one is made for PC from the start. Although it obviously still uses the same evolved game engine as a basis.
Do you recommend the PC version of Atlantic Fleet?
Quote from: Tuna on April 11, 2017, 10:45:52 AM
Quote from: Nefaro on April 10, 2017, 07:58:54 PM
Quote from: Tuna on April 10, 2017, 06:21:56 PM
Isn't this like a 'tablet' game? Or is it totally different from Atlantic Fleet?
The game engine started as that, a couple games back (Pacific Fleet) IIRC. Then Atlantic Fleet was similarly another iPad game, or some such, but they added more content, and upgraded the graphics, for the PC version of AF.
From what I gather, this one is made for PC from the start. Although it obviously still uses the same evolved game engine as a basis.
Do you recommend the PC version of Atlantic Fleet?
Yeah it's fun. I have it on both my PC and my iPad. The graphics are better on the PC but I don't think there's any additional content.
Yeah, but play to me is clunky on tablet. Might have to look into it.
Clunky how?
It's the same control system on the PC.....
Maybe I just prefer a mouse!
I LOVED RSR. I also loved interpreting the waterfall. Dr. Ron Jones couldn't do it better. Red Storm Rising is also the book I have read, in my life, more than any other. I would conservatively estimate a dozen times. This is an instant game woody for me. Voted, and waiting until "mid 2017."
Quote from: Tuna on April 11, 2017, 10:45:52 AM
Quote from: Nefaro on April 10, 2017, 07:58:54 PM
Quote from: Tuna on April 10, 2017, 06:21:56 PM
Isn't this like a 'tablet' game? Or is it totally different from Atlantic Fleet?
The game engine started as that, a couple games back (Pacific Fleet) IIRC. Then Atlantic Fleet was similarly another iPad game, or some such, but they added more content, and upgraded the graphics, for the PC version of AF.
From what I gather, this one is made for PC from the start. Although it obviously still uses the same evolved game engine as a basis.
Do you recommend the PC version of Atlantic Fleet?
Yes.
Despite my submarine battle setup complaint (submarines already in position to fire and quickly escape at start of the battle), it's an enjoyable single-player game. Even has a dynamic campaign layer you can play through the whole war.
Just make sure you run through the tutorials in order to understand how gun aiming and all the other stuff works. It's not difficult, but you need to learn how to do it. I thought the fire adjustment was on the easy side, after learning how it worked.
Quote from: Nefaro on September 29, 2016, 11:07:54 AM
Quote from: Capn Darwin on September 29, 2016, 08:31:28 AM
RSR was awesome. Loved all those Microprose games from back in the day. I hope this game is just as cool.
I played the hell out of those Microprose games on my C64.
But I'm quite sure Red Storm Rising got more hours than any other. Probably even more than Sid Meier's Pirates, which I hadn't thought possible up until that point. Next highest was probably Gunship. But RSR eventually held the crown. I also recall picking up the GDW version of Harpoon about the same time. O0
Still remember that RSR red box, with the red manual and the red floppy disk. Fond memories of wasting my youth, staring too closely at a tiny tv screen, and turning into a troglodyte albino cave dweller whilst dodging fat little pixel torpedoes. ;D
How can you forget F-19A, or later, F-117A. I played F-117A through 99 missions, twice.
Quote from: DennisS on April 14, 2017, 06:38:33 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on September 29, 2016, 11:07:54 AM
Quote from: Capn Darwin on September 29, 2016, 08:31:28 AM
RSR was awesome. Loved all those Microprose games from back in the day. I hope this game is just as cool.
I played the hell out of those Microprose games on my C64.
But I'm quite sure Red Storm Rising got more hours than any other. Probably even more than Sid Meier's Pirates, which I hadn't thought possible up until that point. Next highest was probably Gunship. But RSR eventually held the crown. I also recall picking up the GDW version of Harpoon about the same time. O0
Still remember that RSR red box, with the red manual and the red floppy disk. Fond memories of wasting my youth, staring too closely at a tiny tv screen, and turning into a troglodyte albino cave dweller whilst dodging fat little pixel torpedoes. ;D
How can you forget F-19A, or later, F-117A. I played F-117A through 99 missions, twice.
Oh, yes. F-19 got a helluva lot of play too.
I still think RSR probably held the lead in sheer hours of gameplay for me, though. :)
I had all of those, but RSR FTW.
I had all the microprose games too, but somehow I skipped over RSR...
Blasphemy! Having never hidden underneath a thermal layer, moving ahead quietly while Russian sonar sweeps around you and an Alfa lurks nearby is a hole in your education, JH.
Quote from: Steelgrave on April 15, 2017, 09:34:29 AM
Blasphemy! Having never hidden underneath a thermal layer, moving ahead quietly while Russian sonar sweeps around you and an Alfa lurks nearby is a hole in your education, JH.
.. or popping noisemakers in a panic, decoying an enemy homing torpedo just long enough to slide inside it's search circle and go dead stop so it can't turn fast enough to get it's nose on you. Make like a hole in the water while it circles around, pinging, and hope he doesn't shoot another one through your location. *tension*
:dreamer:
For grins and giggles, I once went up top, and launched a full spread of harpoons, and took off at 20+ knots. There were return shots, of course, with the circling torps, but by then, I was well away from acquisition range of them. As I recall, I did MAJOR damage during that fight, but it was scary as all hell, staying on the surface, and going all out for speed. Not for the faint of heart.
I actually installed RSR on my laptop about two years ago. It still holds up somewhat in gameplay. The graphics, though, were eye-bleeding. If the graphics were brought to modern standards, there's still a great game in there.
I'm hoping the devs stick more or less to this idea.
One of my favorites was firing a torp at long range under the layer perpendicular to the target...have it turn 90* while the wire is intact and then pop it above the layer so whomever you are fighting thinks you're a couple thousand yards in another direction.
This makes my loins moist.
Red Storm Rising WAS the best of the Microprose classics. And that's not knocking F-19 or M1 Tank Platoon.
I spent so many hours on all these games in my youth. An even slight chance that this game will capture something that Red Storm Rising did on my long hours into weekend nights that I spent as a pimple scarred kid is worth the try.
Quote from: jamus34 on April 15, 2017, 09:25:45 PM
One of my favorites was firing a torp at long range under the layer perpendicular to the target...have it turn 90* while the wire is intact and then pop it above the layer so whomever you are fighting thinks you're a couple thousand yards in another direction.
Definitely.
Pretty much
had to angle your fish in, or get a lot of separation from your launch location, because the target would nearly always retaliate with some BOL shot(s) down the initial detection bearing of them.
Despite not being a proper sim like DW, and the faster paced action injected into it, RSR still had some relevance to the strategy of the real thing. And was damn fun despite the Hollywoodization. Much easier to learn too.
I wonder.. will this be out before the end of the year?
Top of my wishlist. :dreamer:
How sweet would have been to have this released for the long weekend? :'(
Quote from: GJK on September 28, 2016, 06:55:36 PM
I'd like to see the UI, this looks to be an arcade game and not a "sub-sim" ala Silent Hunter. I never played RSR, was it more more "game" and less sim (i.e., light)?
RSR was a game, not a sim. I spent a ridiculous amount of time in my youth on 688 Attack Sub and Janes 688i, and no, RSR was nothing like those.
But what RSR was was insanely FUN. It wasn't exactly unrealistic, it just didn't make you spend two hours looking at a sonar waterfall to ID a target. It gave you context, put you into the fight, and made you feel important in a wider war. Such a great game that it's hard to really explain how good it was in the context of the time. It was made especially better since I'd read Clancy's Red Storm Rising right as I had got the game as a teenager for Christmas.
It's good stuff. It's what Microprose was known for. If Cold Waters is just a modern reskin, it's an instant classic.
Never played Red Storm Rising, but I did play Harpoon (both mini and PC). I did play Silent Service.
But I'm intrigued.
Quote from: SirAndrewD on May 28, 2017, 12:44:28 AM
Quote from: GJK on September 28, 2016, 06:55:36 PM
I'd like to see the UI, this looks to be an arcade game and not a "sub-sim" ala Silent Hunter. I never played RSR, was it more more "game" and less sim (i.e., light)?
RSR was a game, not a sim. I spent a ridiculous amount of time in my youth on 688 Attack Sub and Janes 688i, and no, RSR was nothing like those.
But what RSR was was insanely FUN. It wasn't exactly unrealistic, it just didn't make you spend two hours looking at a sonar waterfall to ID a target. It gave you context, put you into the fight, and made you feel important in a wider war. Such a great game that it's hard to really explain how good it was in the context of the time. It was made especially better since I'd read Clancy's Red Storm Rising right as I had got the game as a teenager for Christmas.
It's good stuff. It's what Microprose was known for. If Cold Waters is just a modern reskin, it's an instant classic.
See, this is where I loved RSR. You are the captain of a nuclear attack sub. You should not be working stations on your own. You should be in CIC letting all the officers of the other components updating you on what the battle status and current situation is.
Hi,
Coming in June .. :)
Release Trailer .. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei30pLIK9_Y&lc
Cheers
Tom
W00T! <:-) :bd:
Urge to buy...rising
Quote from: Thomasew on May 29, 2017, 04:51:04 AM
Hi,
Coming in June .. :)
Release Trailer .. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei30pLIK9_Y&lc
Cheers
Tom
Was the trailer actual game play or cinematic?
I believe it's all game play.
I don't think the scenes are rendered though. IIRC, the Battle for the Atlantic games, they used a set number of pre-rendered scenes to show action and such. At least, I thought that is what it was.
Quote from: RyanE on May 29, 2017, 02:03:35 PM
I don't think the scenes are rendered though. IIRC, the Battle for the Atlantic games, they used a set number of pre-rendered scenes to show action and such. At least, I thought that is what it was.
If I understand what you are saying then no they don't use pre-set scenes during the game. ???
I think so. I haven't played in a while, but kind of remembered it that way.
Man, I am all in on this game on release day. I think I mentioned earlier in the thread that I actually booted up RSR...well, a couple years ago now...but it was still fun. The graphics were just too eye-bleedingly bad to stick with it, though.
This game really and truly looks like a re-skin of RSR. If so, this is going to be absolutely fantastic.
Any chance of a 1 June release?
Anxiously waiting here as well...
I think the manual just went public on steam
http://cdn.edgecast.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/541210/manuals/Cold_Waters_Operations_Manual.pdf?t=1496333434
Quote from: mirth on June 01, 2017, 01:21:56 PM
http://cdn.edgecast.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/541210/manuals/Cold_Waters_Operations_Manual.pdf?t=1496333434
Sqweeeeeeeeeeeee
Not long now I would say!
Quote from: RyanE on June 01, 2017, 01:14:36 PM
I think the manual just went public on steam
Yeah baby! Just downloaded it. 53 pages! Looks like a
real manual. :bd:
So this is what moist loins feels like!
TEEHEE!
I'm done reading thru them. Slackers. L:-)
Is it just me or does some of the book literally look like it was ripped from the RSR manual???
Quote from: jamus34 on June 01, 2017, 02:55:56 PM
Is it just me or does some of the book literally look like it was ripped from the RSR manual???
That's not really a bad thing. I want to know if it will have a keyboard overlay we can print out and place for use?
Quote from: Capn Darwin on June 01, 2017, 06:14:33 PM
Quote from: jamus34 on June 01, 2017, 02:55:56 PM
Is it just me or does some of the book literally look like it was ripped from the RSR manual???
That's not really a bad thing. I want to know if it will have a keyboard overlay we can print out and place for use?
This is true and I imagine the tactics portion of both were ripped from a Jane's guide
Not that I've been staring at Cold War vehicle sils to long, but the Cold Waters manual has one glitch in it. The Ground forces markers are BMP-3s. For a game set in 84 the -3s don't enter service until 87. :nerd: Would have been great to see an M1 and T-80 or M113 and BMP-2. Maybe the graphics can be modded. :coolsmiley:
Quote from: Capn Darwin on June 01, 2017, 08:31:23 PM
Not that I've been staring at Cold War vehicle sils to long, but the Cold Waters manual has one glitch in it. The Ground forces markers are BMP-3s. For a game set in 84 the -3s don't enter service until 87. :nerd:
That tears it. No way I'm buying it now.
Quote from: mirth on June 01, 2017, 08:34:15 PM
Quote from: Capn Darwin on June 01, 2017, 08:31:23 PM
Not that I've been staring at Cold War vehicle sils to long, but the Cold Waters manual has one glitch in it. The Ground forces markers are BMP-3s. For a game set in 84 the -3s don't enter service until 87. :nerd:
That tears it. No way I'm buying it now.
I know. Right? :DD
And they used the same silhouette for Pact and NATO! :pullhair:
The Dev replied to a Steam Forum post saying they hope release is less than 24hrs away :bd:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/541210/discussions/0/1290691937712776768/
QuoteCap'n Darwin 20 minutes ago
Quick fix the BMP-3 graphic for ground forces on the map. They don't show up until 87.
:2funny:
Quote from: kludger on June 01, 2017, 08:52:55 PM
The Dev replied to a Steam Forum post saying they hope release is less than 24hrs away :bd:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/541210/discussions/0/1290691937712776768/
My pants just got super tight. (and moist)
Tomorrow night could be very long and late...... <:-)
Time to thin-out the Russian Navy again just like back in day. :bd:
I remember that one game Cold War: Arctic Circle (or whatever it was) and that was pretty damn buggy and was abandoned before it was properly finished. I had high hopes for that one. I remain cautiously optimistic, though for this one.
Alright you old timers, its go time! Pick it up on day one and keep us updated.
Not sure if posted earlier..
Recent preview article:
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/05/26/the-flare-path-cold-waters-preview/
:coolsmiley:
...
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rockpapershotgun.com%2Fimages%2F17%2Fmay%2FColdWat03.jpg&hash=68f435b1256c1c5782d40460521de4aada305ba6)
..
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rockpapershotgun.com%2Fimages%2F17%2Fmay%2FColdWat11.jpg&hash=474a1f06a6d02585c4f6ad9aba1a9883871bab58)
..
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rockpapershotgun.com%2Fimages%2F17%2Fmay%2FColdWat12.jpg&hash=3a29e68578ea8f61410f2f055d9677db63853e4a)
still waiting...
Quote from: Yskonyn on June 02, 2017, 05:21:11 AM
still waiting...
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi146.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fr266%2Fkimonokat%2Fsmilies%2FTapFoot.gif&hash=261c71c6a4232c7a5bce3488d657342d18a61992)
Should be in the next 12 to 24 hours according to one of the devs on the Steam discussion boards for the game. That is IF they don't run into trouble.
This blurb made me smile btw:
"You can Tell Killerfish Knows How to Make a Submarine Game Because
we are all here crammed into one forum with little information about what is going on up top, waiting for something to be dropped on us, we don't know when this will happen but we do know it will happen, and you can cut the anticipation with a bread knife." - by tomatow (forum member).
I don't know about y'all, but I'm clearing my schedule in anticipation. Gonna load up the chore train today!
Quote from: Toonces on June 02, 2017, 05:45:46 AM
Gonna load up the chore train today!
Chore #1 being 'stock up on Scotch'.
I don't consider that a chore.
I'm going to sacrifice a lamb and then meditate and pray to the gaming gods for the rest of day. Hopefully, this game won't suck.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 02, 2017, 06:22:58 AM
Hopefully, this game won't suck.
The collective disappointment would be cataclysmic.
Quote from: mirth on June 02, 2017, 07:07:41 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 02, 2017, 06:22:58 AM
Hopefully, this game won't suck.
The collective disappointment would be cataclysmic.
I know. I'm trying to avoid the apocalypse.
Everything I've read and seen, screenshots etc., indicate this is RSR reskinned. RSR was somewhat arcadey, maybe like Strike Fighters vs. BMS or DCS-level simulation.
I'm going into it with that level of expectation. I think we're going to be ok.
Speaking of the apocalypse, I wonder if you'll be able to deliver nukes in the game. Nobody ever models the Ohio class... :-[
Just posted in the Steam discussions:
QuoteRelease Delayed
Turns out it will be several more days until release...
Hang in there.
Seems there's a small hold up in the Steam review process.....
QuoteNot up to us, waiting on the Steam review process.
Good news is that it gives us a few more days to polish away.
Quote from: Barthheart on June 02, 2017, 08:53:13 AM
Just posted in the Steam discussions:
QuoteRelease Delayed
Turns out it will be several more days until release...
Hang in there.
Seems there's a small hold up in the Steam review process.....
QuoteNot up to us, waiting on the Steam review process.
Good news is that it gives us a few more days to polish away.
I hate to say this, but I totally knew that was coming. It was a mistake for the dev to say "less than 24 hours"...famous last words.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 02, 2017, 09:00:16 AM
It was a mistake for the dev to say "less than 24 hours"...famous last words.
Yeah, that pretty much doomed it. We're probably looking at 6 more months now :P
Sadly no joy in Mudville this weekend. :'(
Probably a good thing for me. Too much Origins prep work to finish. O0
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 02, 2017, 07:24:07 AM
Speaking of the apocalypse, I wonder if you'll be able to deliver nukes in the game. Nobody ever models the Ohio class... :-[
You could always play Defcon :bd:
Devs stated no nukes in the game. Maybe we can lobby for them in a DLC.
Man, the delay kinda threw cold water on my weekend plans.
Yeah, they're definitely keeping their customers on ice.
I'll admit my enthusiasm has been dampened.
It's like a wet blanket has been thrown on this thread.
You all can still play it right now--- in your head. Like I'm doing. :uglystupid2:
I don't want to get an ice cream headache.
Be very careful guys. Remember there's a lot of 'shrinkage' when you're in cold waters. :hide:
These puns are sinking faster than the Titanic.
We're plunging into the icy depths.
If this keeps up, someone is going to end up in Davy Jones' Locker.
Shiver me timbers!
Even if this game is good, I'm worried the expectations might doom it.
Quote from: mirth on June 02, 2017, 09:05:53 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 02, 2017, 09:00:16 AM
It was a mistake for the dev to say "less than 24 hours"...famous last words.
Yeah, that pretty much doomed it. We're probably looking at 6 more months now :P
If it were up to Steam's CS, it would be 4-6 weeks.
Fortunately I don't think there is much of a "review" process before Steam releases new stuff. Judging by some of the crap they put up.
The Steam Review Process:
1) Does it install?
2) Let it sit for a few days before uploading.
:clap:
Quote from: RyanE on June 02, 2017, 11:22:24 AM
Even if this game is good, I'm worried the expectations might doom it.
Judging by the RPS gameplay preview from last week, and the many screenshots, it sounds much like the old RSR style gameplay.
The guy was impressed with it and he actually had an idea of what it's meant to be - not some FPS twitcher who's never tried anything in the genre.
Based on that, and the quality of the dev's previous naval warfare game, I expect to enjoy it quite a bit. Barring a showstopper bug. No worries, other than likely wanting MORE stuff. :arr:
Didn't even realize it's coming with both '68 and '84 campaign settings. Dunno if I'll play the '68 setting much, since less stuff. But there's already scuttlebutt that they may add Soviet and British campaign DLC, and other extras, if it does well. I think it will; the sub simmers are out there. Lurking. Waiting. :arr:
Das Boots well
Hi,
In an attempt to get this thread back on track .. ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WqLYXqzIws
Some gameplay via Onkel Neal at Subsim .. 8)
Cheers
Tom
Unfortunately, that video didn't actually fill me with confidence and in fact highlighted some concerns
- Guy said he was going to the periscope depth but ended up breaking the surface
- Guy said he was going to slow down but in fact had stopped - which he then realised, commenting on lack of feedback
- I didn't see an indication of the "thermal" layers...was that there?
- Lots and lots of freezing of the video...especially, it seemed, when things kicked off
Mostly, it seemed the guy struggled with the interface (my first two points above). They could've been his issues - not knowing the controls well enough - but he said he had played several times quoting "you don't always get that lucky". Given the issues the guy had with control in game and his statement at the end, that might suggest a "difficult" interface.
Having said that, I actually enjoyed watching it all kick off and I'm still looking forward to it - just with a little bit more trepidation.
There's a 50 page manual for all of that
But you're not going to read it :D
Quote from: undercovergeek on June 04, 2017, 01:57:50 AM
There's a 50 page manual for all of that
But you're not going to read it :D
Do you
actually read manuals or do you cursory look through and then use for reference? :knuppel2:
I've already posted here why I tend not to read manuals - I have a terrible short term memory issue.
I've had to read the Star Wars:Rebellion manual twice (both the Rules Reference and Learn to Play) and I
still have to pick them up during gameplay. I just can't seem to retain anything anymore.
That doesn't bode particularly well for my computer programming career :DD
The only evidence there is that god exists is that he made the toilet and big game manuals
JD, the mission notes at start stated no layer or thermal duct. As for controls, I did not see much feedback. I'd take text messages like RSR saying "Set depth to 220 feet" or "Right rudder 10 degrees" just to know I am commanding things correctly. I'll have to watch again for the control indicators.
Update: I do see speed messages and some passing XXX feet, but not set course. Hopefully things will be improved. Also the location and text size of those messages is not the best either.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on June 04, 2017, 01:34:48 AM
Unfortunately, that video didn't actually fill me with confidence and in fact highlighted some concerns
- Guy said he was going to the periscope depth but ended up breaking the surface
- Guy said he was going to slow down but in fact had stopped - which he then realised, commenting on lack of feedback
- I didn't see an indication of the "thermal" layers...was that there?
- Lots and lots of freezing of the video...especially, it seemed, when things kicked off
Mostly, it seemed the guy struggled with the interface (my first two points above). They could've been his issues - not knowing the controls well enough - but he said he had played several times quoting "you don't always get that lucky". Given the issues the guy had with control in game and his statement at the end, that might suggest a "difficult" interface.
Having said that, I actually enjoyed watching it all kick off and I'm still looking forward to it - just with a little bit more trepidation.
After watching, I'm pretty sure Neal was using manual controls to steer the boat. Which would explain why he had the surfacing and speed issues.
I vaguely recall seeing a preview from Neal years ago, and he hadn't quite picked up on the sim, at the time, either. Neal's a nice guy who's run the hub of the sub sim community for a long time, but I'm not sure if he studies up very well before ... diving in. :))
He did state that he, "just kind of casually jumped into this battle", and "you can't just smooch around and expect to get away with it." ;D
I agree that it could probably use sounds/voices giving input confirmations. Even if you're manually steering/telegraphing with keyboard keys instead of the normal "Slow, 1/4, 1/2, Full, Flank" speed and "5, 10, 15, etc degree" rudder orders, for example. Which should also at least have a "ding" sound. But I don't think he even used the normal presets, so maybe those have such a thing?
The little text window, with all the messages shooting through, looks insufficient for all the quick feedback.
Overall, this
does look like the new RSR. The style of game play very much reminds me of it. Intentionally so. I'll be disappearing under the surface for awhile when this comes out! :dreamer:
Edit:
Manual says the navigation controls are incremental. So you just give the key a little tappy. Just tap it in. One-by-one.
The planes and rudder go by 5 degree increments. 'X' key is the Straight & Level order.
Judging by the hotkey list, there is no direct "periscope depth" order, or specific depth entry option. I guess we'll have to learn to drive. :o
Quote from: undercovergeek on June 04, 2017, 08:21:35 AM
The only evidence there is that god exists is that he made the toilet and big game manuals
Agreed...but even there, nothing sticks (thankfully) :))
Quote from: JudgeDredd on June 04, 2017, 01:03:06 PM
Quote from: undercovergeek on June 04, 2017, 08:21:35 AM
The only evidence there is that god exists is that he made the toilet and big game manuals
Agreed...but even there, nothing sticks (thankfully) :))
Wait....ewwww
You'd think, before going through the trouble of recording a video and then uploading it to YouTube, which is a fairly time-consuming process, you'd spend some time playing the game and figuring it out so you can give a good representative look at the game. Lazy.
Anyway, in great anticipation of Cold Waters coming out, I've reinstalled Dangerous Waters just now. I'm installing the RA 1.41 mod on top, which I've never tried but it sounds pretty awesome.
Sadly, I've barely scratched the surface of DW. Time to rectify that.
Modern naval warfare goodness abounds! :arr:
Quote from: Nefaro on June 04, 2017, 11:25:51 AM
Edit:
Manual says the navigation controls are incremental. So you just give the key a little tappy. Just tap it in. One-by-one.
The planes and rudder go by 5 degree increments. 'X' key is the Straight & Level order.
Judging by the hotkey list, there is no direct "periscope depth" order, or specific depth entry option. I guess we'll have to learn to drive. :o
That's crazy! Will it detract from the immersion?
DW with the voice activated commands was great fun and very immersive. You had to spend some time with the Microsoft speech engine to train it to get know your voice but once that was done, sub missions were awesome controlling by voice.
DW is a fantastic game. One that's really rewarding too. Sneaking around in my LA class, finding an enemy sub and sinking it is so involved that you feel like you accomplished something
Quote from: jomni on June 04, 2017, 08:10:54 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on June 04, 2017, 11:25:51 AM
Edit:
Manual says the navigation controls are incremental. So you just give the key a little tappy. Just tap it in. One-by-one.
The planes and rudder go by 5 degree increments. 'X' key is the Straight & Level order.
Judging by the hotkey list, there is no direct "periscope depth" order, or specific depth entry option. I guess we'll have to learn to drive. :o
That's crazy! Will it detract from the immersion?
Naaa..
Just add more workload on the player.
RSR was faster paced than the sub sims we're used to (e.g. DW/SC/688i series). Intentionally so. I'm loathe to call it a "Hollywood" version, but things definitely happened more quickly when the shooting started. Especially in sub vs sub "knife fight in a phone booth" situations, with homing torpedoes, decoys, and quick turning maneuvers that are closely spaced.
From what little I've seen of Cold Waters, and read in it's manual, the new game will be similarly paced. Although the settings contain a couple different time & distance scaling modifiers players can change, so it can apparently be adjusted.
I remember having some pretty hectic bursts of helm & weapons orders being needed in RSR. I tended to normally use the number entry system for the 'everyday' nav orders - heading & depth. Was just easier to be a precise one-shot order, not needing any follow-up commands. But when I needed to haul ass, dodge torpedoes, etc, I'd often just order full speed, full rudder over, and give the following straight & level order when needed.
Unfortunately this one only seems to offer the latter right now. But the precise entry was mostly useful during slower less stressful times anyway. Will have to get used to jockeying the helm at all times, and in smaller increments, than just slamming them over to full in a panic.
I do think a preset "Periscope Depth" hotkey is needed. One that will take the sub to a preset PD on it's own, without the player having to jockey the planes. I'd also like to see two additional ones: "Shallow depth" and "Deep Depth" for preset depths that are above and below typical thermal layer depths.
I was a bit concerned with the speed of the torpedo tube reload in the vid. Maybe that was just a difficulty setting, or maybe the time setting. It looked to be exceptionally fast.
Just got an email stating this is available now.
Hell yeah!
http://store.steampowered.com/app/541210/Cold_Waters/
Ditto! $44 CDN... not bad.... my gaming budget for June is taking an awful beating... and I'm not even at Origins yet... :P
Only 913MB in size. :)
Quote from: mirth on June 05, 2017, 11:06:27 AM
Now where have I seen this video before?
...oh yeah. On page 10 of this thread. :crazy2:
There's only four pages in this thread :P
Grab it and tell us what you think! I'm stuck at work for 4 more hours!
$40 is above my "instabuy before reviews" threshold, looking fwd to hearing some impressions from you guys and whether it's good/worth it.
I hear the sound of loins moistening in cold water everywhere.
I am on stby during the night, so its early bedtime for me. I look forward to seeing some first impressions here tomorrow when I wake up!
And if the verdict is bad... well than you guys saved me from spending 40 credits. :-"
Have fun! I really hope its a good game!
DevilDogGamer is streaming it right now.
https://www.twitch.tv/thedevildoggamer
Installing! :buck2:
Man it pains me to say this, but this might be an official Grogheads "hold off a bit" purchase.
I only spent about 20 minutes with it so far, but I'm already annoyed.
First, there is no way that I can see to order a particular course, speed or depth. You have to manually "drive" the sub there by moving the planes and rudder in 5 degree increments, and speed is set 1/3, 2/3, full, flank, etc. No ability to dial in a specific speed setting. There is no way to order "periscope depth" which means you need to micromanage the sub as it has momentum so just hitting the level key doesn't automatically stop your sub's movement.
The other thing that I think is really going to bum you guys out is the inability to save in a mission. Unless I missed it, once you start a tactical mission you can't save mid-mission. There is an "abandon ship" button, which I hit because I had to go pick up my daughter from school, and that button aborts the campaign completely.
I can live with the mission thing; that's no different than Total War, but the manually driving the sub is the suck.
Finally, I was expecting simple like RSR, but man, after playing Dangerous Waters and CMANO, this is hard to adjust to already. It might be too simple. I found myself looking for data that I've become accustomed to, and it's just not there.
I dunno...this feels kind of shallow, almost more like a tablet game than a $40 PC game.
Might be worth holding out for a review. I'll try to get some more impressions up later after I get my swoll on.
^ugh. not good. not good at all.
I knew it. I just flippin' knew it.
Mirth sad.
Yeah, from what I've seen I'm not getting this at a $40 price point. Even 688 Attack Sub had a periscope depth order and course plotting.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 05, 2017, 02:25:19 PM
I knew it. I just flippin' knew it.
Your lamb sacrifice failed!
Quote from: RyanE on June 02, 2017, 11:22:24 AM
Even if this game is good, I'm worried the expectations might doom it.
First time in my life I have ever quoted my self.
Quote from: RyanE on June 05, 2017, 02:43:38 PM
Quote from: RyanE on June 02, 2017, 11:22:24 AM
Even if this game is good, I'm worried the expectations might doom it.
First time in my life I have ever quoted my self.
Do you have any actual information to indicate it is good? Or are just excited to be quoting yourself?
I don't think CW has ever claimed to be a hardcore simulation. The devs said yesterday that the controls are WASD all the way but there's a chance that they might change it if the player base wants that.
http://steamcommunity.com/app/541210/discussions/0/1290691937722193565/ (http://steamcommunity.com/app/541210/discussions/0/1290691937722193565/)
I don't think anyone was expecting or asking for a hardcore sim. Not manually driving the boat is not a hardcore sim expectation. You're supposed to be the Captain not the helmsman.
I think its safe to say the community will demand this change.
The controls in the old Tom Clancy SSN game were WASD. Fun game for what it was, but very arcade-y.
Thanks Toonces! I was ready to pull the trigger and thought I'd check the forum first. I'm on hold now :'(.
Yeah - thanks Toonces for taking one for the team.
I'm waiting patiently....... :-"
Who am I kidding. I'm still going to get it as soon as I get home... :uglystupid2:
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 05, 2017, 03:24:53 PM
Who am I kidding. I'm still going to get it as soon as I get home... :uglystupid2:
We know.
Too good to be true
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 05, 2017, 03:24:53 PM
Who am I kidding. I'm still going to get it as soon as I get home... :uglystupid2:
I'll go down the bookies and pick up my winnings then (not that the odds were very good) :2funny:
If this were $19.99, I probably wouldn't care about WASD controls and no mission saves, but at $39.99 I do care.
Nothing I listed up there are high expectations, Ryan. The ability to dial in a course, depth and speed is pretty standard. And saving mid-game is something people always gripe about. And, considering how important periscope depth is, a key to drive the boat to it is kind of a given.
There seems to be a workaround for the course by setting waypoints, but I don't know if speed and depth can be set that way.
Maybe I'm wrong, though. I'm hoping to hear some other impressions. I have a very, very stong feeling, though, that the sub sim community is not going to like this at all. I'm all for streamlining, but perhaps this is a bit too streamlined.
I very accurately predicted what would happen. This was declared the modern equivalent of RSR. I see people get excited about games a lot. Nothing wrong with that. But this thread seemed to go a little over the top.
Quote from: RyanE on June 05, 2017, 03:48:50 PM
I very accurately predicted what would happen. This was declared the modern equivalent of RSR. I see people get excited about games a lot. Nothing wrong with that. But this thread seemed to go a little over the top.
The designer's declared it the modern equivalent of RSR. It seems more like the modern equivalent of SSN, which while a fun game is not in the same league as RSR.
Quote from: mirth on June 05, 2017, 03:52:17 PM
The designer's declared it the modern equivalent of RSR. It seems more like the modern equivalent of SSN, which while a fun game is not in the same league as RSR.
Yeah, it's hard to be the modern equivalent of RSR when you ignore some of the design decisions of RSR that made it manageable.
I'm holding out judgement, I haven't played the game one second. However, just early impressions from others seems to be that the price is a bit high for the delivered product, and there might have to be a few quality of life improvements. I'll let it grow into its own skin and go on sale before I take the dive into Cold Waters.
Quote from: RyanE on June 05, 2017, 03:48:50 PM
I very accurately predicted what would happen. This was declared the modern equivalent of RSR. I see people get excited about games a lot. Nothing wrong with that. But this thread seemed to go a little over the top.
Grogheads presents: Real Wargamers of Genius
Today we salute you, Mr. totally accurate predictor of overhyped bad games.
Calling it like you see it, you're living the dream of every grognard.
You pop into every thread just so you can leave your two cents, and then say, I told you so after the fact.
Sure, there is danger...afterall, you might break your dongle, or it may be lost in your luggage.
Your keen instincts tell you to avoid games that your fellow gamers are excited about, and if they turn out to be good, who cares? You'll pick it up on sale.
So crack open an ice cold Bud Light, accurate predictor boy. 'Cause we all know, when the going gets tough, the tough get dongles.
Quote from: SirAndrewD on June 05, 2017, 03:58:07 PM
I'm holding out judgement, I haven't played the game one second. However, just early impressions from others seems to be that the price is a bit high for the delivered product, and there might have to be a few quality of life improvements. I'll let it grow into its own skin and go on sale before I take the dive into Cold Waters.
I'm sure I'll buy it at some point. Most likely the first time it goes on sale.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 05, 2017, 03:59:12 PM
Quote from: RyanE on June 05, 2017, 03:48:50 PM
I very accurately predicted what would happen. This was declared the modern equivalent of RSR. I see people get excited about games a lot. Nothing wrong with that. But this thread seemed to go a little over the top.
Grogheads presents: Real Wargamers of Genius
Today we salute you, Mr. totally accurate predictor of overhyped bad games.
Calling it like you see it, you're living the dream of every grognard.
You pop into every thread just so you can leave your two cents, and then say, I told you so after the fact.
Sure, there is danger...afterall, you might break your dongle, or it may be lost in your luggage.
Your keen instincts tell you to avoid games that your fellow gamers are excited about, and if they turn out to be good, who cares? You'll pick it up on sale.
So crack open an ice cold Bud Light, accurate predictor boy. 'Cause we all know, when the going gets tough, the tough get dongles.
Now this is worth $39.99. :DD
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 05, 2017, 03:59:12 PM
Quote from: RyanE on June 05, 2017, 03:48:50 PM
I very accurately predicted what would happen. This was declared the modern equivalent of RSR. I see people get excited about games a lot. Nothing wrong with that. But this thread seemed to go a little over the top.
Grogheads presents: Real Wargamers of Genius
Today we salute you, Mr. totally accurate predictor of overhyped bad games.
Calling it like you see it, you're living the dream of every grognard.
You pop into every thread just so you can leave your two cents, and then say, I told you so after the fact.
Sure, there is danger...afterall, you might break your dongle, or it may be lost in your luggage.
Your keen instincts tell you to avoid games that your fellow gamers are excited about, and if they turn out to be good, who cares? You'll pick it up on sale.
So crack open an ice cold Bud Light, accurate predictor boy. 'Cause we all know, when the going gets tough, the tough get dongle.
Oh f**k! :DD
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 05, 2017, 03:59:12 PM
Quote from: RyanE on June 05, 2017, 03:48:50 PM
I very accurately predicted what would happen. This was declared the modern equivalent of RSR. I see people get excited about games a lot. Nothing wrong with that. But this thread seemed to go a little over the top.
"So crack open an ice cold Bud Light, accurate predictor boy. 'Cause we all know, when the going gets tough, the tough get dongles.
Jarhead, you crack me up :notworthy:... but Bud Light??? Please! I'm one of those effete "craft beer" snobs.
Anyway, I know I will get this sooner or later, I just hope the devs will do something about the course, depth micro-management. So I'm counting on you and Toonces for continued impressions to justify my $40 expenditure. I know I'm not going to be able to resist for long... help me, please
Weird.... downloading it here at my home PC it say it's 731MB... ???
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 05, 2017, 03:59:12 PM
Quote from: RyanE on June 05, 2017, 03:48:50 PM
I very accurately predicted what would happen. This was declared the modern equivalent of RSR. I see people get excited about games a lot. Nothing wrong with that. But this thread seemed to go a little over the top.
Grogheads presents: Real Wargamers of Genius
Today we salute you, Mr. totally accurate predictor of overhyped bad games.
Calling it like you see it, you're living the dream of every grognard.
You pop into every thread just so you can leave your two cents, and then say, I told you so after the fact.
Sure, there is danger...afterall, you might break your dongle, or it may be lost in your luggage.
Your keen instincts tell you to avoid games that your fellow gamers are excited about, and if they turn out to be good, who cares? You'll pick it up on sale.
So crack open an ice cold Bud Light, accurate predictor boy. 'Cause we all know, when the going gets tough, the tough get dongles.
Dammit. Perfect time for an "oh my" George Takei gif. You know...if I knew how to post one
Quote from: Millipede on June 05, 2017, 04:13:17 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 05, 2017, 03:59:12 PM
Quote from: RyanE on June 05, 2017, 03:48:50 PM
I very accurately predicted what would happen. This was declared the modern equivalent of RSR. I see people get excited about games a lot. Nothing wrong with that. But this thread seemed to go a little over the top.
"So crack open an ice cold Bud Light, accurate predictor boy. 'Cause we all know, when the going gets tough, the tough get dongles.
Jarhead, you crack me up :notworthy:... but Bud Light??? Please! I'm one of those effete "craft beer" snobs.
For those of our friends who may be from overseas, or are too young to remember the ad campaign
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Men_of_Genius (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Men_of_Genius)
Ah.
Quote from: mikeck on June 05, 2017, 04:14:08 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 05, 2017, 03:59:12 PM
Quote from: RyanE on June 05, 2017, 03:48:50 PM
I very accurately predicted what would happen. This was declared the modern equivalent of RSR. I see people get excited about games a lot. Nothing wrong with that. But this thread seemed to go a little over the top.
Grogheads presents: Real Wargamers of Genius
Today we salute you, Mr. totally accurate predictor of overhyped bad games.
Calling it like you see it, you're living the dream of every grognard.
You pop into every thread just so you can leave your two cents, and then say, I told you so after the fact.
Sure, there is danger...afterall, you might break your dongle, or it may be lost in your luggage.
Your keen instincts tell you to avoid games that your fellow gamers are excited about, and if they turn out to be good, who cares? You'll pick it up on sale.
So crack open an ice cold Bud Light, accurate predictor boy. 'Cause we all know, when the going gets tough, the tough get dongles.
Dammit. Perfect time for an "oh my" George Takei gif. You know...if I knew how to post one
pour toi
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1160.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq499%2Fwmar1967%2FjBd5eVa_zpsefppuksh.gif&hash=fe81ed9e336be99dd3d8a6a09a3783147bab8940) (http://s1160.photobucket.com/user/wmar1967/media/jBd5eVa_zpsefppuksh.gif.html)
I am defeated...
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 05, 2017, 04:15:51 PM
Quote from: Millipede on June 05, 2017, 04:13:17 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 05, 2017, 03:59:12 PM
Quote from: RyanE on June 05, 2017, 03:48:50 PM
I very accurately predicted what would happen. This was declared the modern equivalent of RSR. I see people get excited about games a lot. Nothing wrong with that. But this thread seemed to go a little over the top.
"So crack open an ice cold Bud Light, accurate predictor boy. 'Cause we all know, when the going gets tough, the tough get dongles.
Jarhead, you crack me up :notworthy:... but Bud Light??? Please! I'm one of those effete "craft beer" snobs.
For those of our friends who may be from overseas, or are too young to remember the ad campaign
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Men_of_Genius (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Men_of_Genius)
Great commercials (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQjash3vZuU&list=PLd7qU5EESCWIxmeEhatjcN5DQLLuEkRM8&index=1) :2funny:, but the product still sucks. (Serious thread deviation)
Alright, spent another hour with it.
I'm firmly on the fence.
The course/speed/depth thing is just annoying enough to make me want to refund the game. The first time I drove the sub to periscope depth was painful enough that I can see this will keep me from playing the game.
You can't save the game mid-mission if there are enemies nearby, weapons in the water, etc. So once you commit to a mission you have to stick with it until you've cleared datum enough to exit out. The game has an autosave feature so that it will autosave on entering a mission so if you have to abort you can reload from a save just prior to mission start.
First mission I got to intercept a Boomer. To move on the campaign screen you point and hold the left mouse button and the sub drives to the point. You get red icons and you just drive your boat into the red icon. Very similar to RSR but faster and overall the map seems smaller scale. Not sure if there is a setting for this; there might be. Once you collide, you go to a screen and choose the range at which to start the engagement, from 25kyd to 5kyd. Every time I started my sub was at depth doing full or flank speed which was annoying.
When you get contact you get a S1, S2, etc. box. If you click on it, you'll get whatever info you have on the target in your contact box that has your own boat data as well. There is a sensor screen where you can cycle the identities until you find the one that matches the waterfall display and you can classify the contact. It's extremely annoying to use, but works. Conversely, if you wait long enough your crew will auto id the target once the solution matches some number.
Shooting couldn't be easier. Press space, put the cursor where you want to shoot, and press right mouse and the torp fires. There are some basic settings for the torp but I didn't use them. You can guide the wireguided torps in, but I accidentally cut the wires each shot. This part looks just like RSR, with the incoming and outgoing torpedo icons, kind of like the sonar on Crimson Tide. Noisemakers can be deployed and flash on the tactical display. Be sure you pay attention while driving the ship in evasion as it's easy to get distracted and end up driving in circles or passing desired depth.
Graphics are neat. In the engagement I had a Boomer and two Victors. Killed all three, but had to defend against an enemy torp. Went to 3D view and I could see my sub and the three dead subs on the bottom with bubbles coming out. You'd have to have about 5 miles underwater visibility, but it was still neat looking.
After I took out the subs I kept getting an active sonar hit, and after a minute or two the 3D automatically switched to a Bear dropping a torp on me. Cool. Evaded that and exited out of the mission for a success.
You then to back to the campaign screen and get assigned another mission like intercept a convoy at some location. I don't remember if that's how RSR worked; I thought it was more freelancing, but regardless it seems that it would be possible to freelance if you just ignored the mission tasking.
In between missions you get these things like posters to describe the status of the campaign. I didn't particularly care for this element.
And that's about it. It was fun in a way, but fun like Atlantic Fleet is fun. Which makes sense I guess. I think the Strike Fighters vs. DCS comparison is apt. If you are comfortable switching between those two sims, you might find this is just fine.
^holy crap. No time to read at the moment, but thanks for the depth of the post O0
Good post, Toonces. I'm going to hold off. It sounds like an under $20 purchase to me.
Ok, I did a little more research. There's a 148 count and growing thread regarding the WASD controls on Steam. Sounds like the devs are receptive to changing that so I suspect an option to manually set these things will eventually come in a patch.
Also read that the game is highly moddable right from the get go, and supported by the devs. There's even a mod guide on the Steam forums. You can create single missions, campaigns, edit the database, etc. I suspect once this gets a little momentum we'll see a lot of community-created content.
Finally, it sounds like the devs have a lot of DLCs already planned, so they're in it for the long haul.
I'm cautiously optimistic that after some growing pains this game will gather a nice following.
Quote from: Toonces on June 05, 2017, 04:37:04 PM
Alright, spent another hour with it.
I'm firmly on the fence.
The course/speed/depth thing is just annoying enough to make me want to refund the game. The first time I drove the sub to periscope depth was painful enough that I can see this will keep me from playing the game.
You can't save the game mid-mission if there are enemies nearby, weapons in the water, etc. So once you commit to a mission you have to stick with it until you've cleared datum enough to exit out. The game has an autosave feature so that it will autosave on entering a mission so if you have to abort you can reload from a save just prior to mission start.
First mission I got to intercept a Boomer. To move on the campaign screen you point and hold the left mouse button and the sub drives to the point. You get red icons and you just drive your boat into the red icon. Very similar to RSR but faster and overall the map seems smaller scale. Not sure if there is a setting for this; there might be. Once you collide, you go to a screen and choose the range at which to start the engagement, from 25kyd to 5kyd. Every time I started my sub was at depth doing full or flank speed which was annoying.
Holding LMB on the campaign map moves you at full speed.
RMB is the slow 'creep' speed.
So try to switch to RMB when nearing possible enemy ship location.
RSR was like this, where you had to hold a button down to transit quickly but let off near encounters or you'd start in the combat zone at transit speed.
Forces you to estimate where your intended target will be in the future. To get ahead of it in time to slow and do the silent sub thing. Don't wanna be chasing at high speed, but setting up an ambush ahead of them.
Quote
When you get contact you get a S1, S2, etc. box. If you click on it, you'll get whatever info you have on the target in your contact box that has your own boat data as well. There is a sensor screen where you can cycle the identities until you find the one that matches the waterfall display and you can classify the contact. It's extremely annoying to use, but works. Conversely, if you wait long enough your crew will auto id the target once the solution matches some number.
Shooting couldn't be easier. Press space, put the cursor where you want to shoot, and press right mouse and the torp fires. There are some basic settings for the torp but I didn't use them. You can guide the wireguided torps in, but I accidentally cut the wires each shot. This part looks just like RSR, with the incoming and outgoing torpedo icons, kind of like the sonar on Crimson Tide. Noisemakers can be deployed and flash on the tactical display. Be sure you pay attention while driving the ship in evasion as it's easy to get distracted and end up driving in circles or passing desired depth.
Graphics are neat. In the engagement I had a Boomer and two Victors. Killed all three, but had to defend against an enemy torp. Went to 3D view and I could see my sub and the three dead subs on the bottom with bubbles coming out. You'd have to have about 5 miles underwater visibility, but it was still neat looking.
After I took out the subs I kept getting an active sonar hit, and after a minute or two the 3D automatically switched to a Bear dropping a torp on me. Cool. Evaded that and exited out of the mission for a success.
You then to back to the campaign screen and get assigned another mission like intercept a convoy at some location. I don't remember if that's how RSR worked; I thought it was more freelancing, but regardless it seems that it would be possible to freelance if you just ignored the mission tasking.
Yep! It was like that, with a mission given at any one time.
You can still run into all kinds of stuff on the campaign map, of course. O0
Quote
In between missions you get these things like posters to describe the status of the campaign. I didn't particularly care for this element.
And that's about it. It was fun in a way, but fun like Atlantic Fleet is fun. Which makes sense I guess. I think the Strike Fighters vs. DCS comparison is apt. If you are comfortable switching between those two sims, you might find this is just fine.
Hoping they at least add some depth control hotkeys.
I'd also think that implementing a 'Set Course' command, which uses a mouse click to set heading similar to how you launch torpedoes down a bearing, wouldn't need to be done from scratch. Because weapon launches already do much of that.
Could also use a small 3D-view window on the TAB tactical display screen. That screen looks more useful in an engagement, with more screen space dedicated to the map. May as well get some use out of the 3D icing on it.
The meta is definitely RSR. Which is great. A direct copy of the style, if not all the functionality regarding navigation. They just need to tighten up & add a few interface features, along with any bugs.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 05, 2017, 03:59:12 PM
Quote from: RyanE on June 05, 2017, 03:48:50 PM
I very accurately predicted what would happen. This was declared the modern equivalent of RSR. I see people get excited about games a lot. Nothing wrong with that. But this thread seemed to go a little over the top.
Grogheads presents: Real Wargamers of Genius
Today we salute you, Mr. totally accurate predictor of overhyped bad games.
Calling it like you see it, you're living the dream of every grognard.
You pop into every thread just so you can leave your two cents, and then say, I told you so after the fact.
Sure, there is danger...afterall, you might break your dongle, or it may be lost in your luggage.
Your keen instincts tell you to avoid games that your fellow gamers are excited about, and if they turn out to be good, who cares? You'll pick it up on sale.
So crack open an ice cold Bud Light, accurate predictor boy. 'Cause we all know, when the going gets tough, the tough get dongles.
That post should have come with a warning! Can Maker's Mark do permanent damage to nasal passages? :2funny:
It can't. Not permanent. Though it stings like hell.
Quote from: Toonces on June 05, 2017, 05:10:26 PM
Ok, I did a little more research. There's a 148 count and growing thread regarding the WASD controls on Steam. Sounds like the devs are receptive to changing that so I suspect an option to manually set these things will eventually come in a patch.
Also read that the game is highly moddable right from the get go, and supported by the devs. There's even a mod guide on the Steam forums. You can create single missions, campaigns, edit the database, etc. I suspect once this gets a little momentum we'll see a lot of community-created content.
Finally, it sounds like the devs have a lot of DLCs already planned, so they're in it for the long haul.
I'm cautiously optimistic that after some growing pains this game will gather a nice following.
They mentioned adding playable Russkie and British nuke boats in the future. Along with different campaign years. 8)
I waffled a bit at the $40 price tag. But this is something I've wanted a modern version of for years. I've not seen anything negative from the developers, so it was an easy wallet prying for me.
My thought on the nav complaints- I would like the option to set depth / course in feet / degrees but I also see the value of being able to manually "drive the boat" in all honesty I think both are needed.
That said I think I'm going to take the wait and see approach. If the devs can shore up some of the issues I will pick it up.
One strange issue I'm having...even though my settings are set to full screen, my task bar is still visible at the bottom of the screen. It partially covers the weapons and damage control menus and if I try to select the bottom two weapon slots that are partially concealed by the task bar, it takes me to desk top. I've also tried changing the resolution and taking it out of full screen mode. No change. Any suggestions?
Refund.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 05, 2017, 06:26:12 PM
One strange issue I'm having...even though my settings are set to full screen, my task bar is still visible at the bottom of the screen. It partially covers the weapons and damage control menus and if I try to select the bottom two weapon slots that are partially concealed by the task bar, it takes me to desk top. I've also tried changing the resolution and taking it out of full screen mode. No change. Any suggestions?
Very odd... have you accidentally set the lock on the Task Bar?
Well, I'm having fun with it. It's pretty much the level of realism I expected... but not predicted!
Yes a Periscope Depth button would be nice. Using all the current controls I had no problem getting to 40-50 ft for periscope depth.
Yes a set course direct entry would be nice.
Having played a LOT of Atlantic Fleet, Killer Fish is very good at updates and improvements.
I find myself playing mostly on the grid map but you do have to go to the periscope and visually locate targets then laser tag them for better idents. Mission I was just in the seas were very rough and the waves would obscure the view through the periscope on occasion. Luckily, maybe, the view was not bobbing up and down or I'd probably hurl.
Haven't started a campaign yet, but have worked through all the tutorials and a couple of single missions. This could easily eat up a lot of time.
O0 so far.
Is there a requirement that you develope any type of solution at all for your Torps or missiles or basically donyiu just fire down the bearing and auto-boom
Quote from: Barthheart on June 05, 2017, 06:48:32 PM
Well, I'm having fun with it. It's pretty much the level of realism I expected... but not predicted!
Yes a Periscope Depth button would be nice. Using all the current controls I had no problem getting to 40-50 ft for periscope depth.
Yes a set course direct entry would be nice.
Having played a LOT of Atlantic Fleet, Killer Fish is very good at updates and improvements.
I find myself playing mostly on the grid map but you do have to go to the periscope and visually locate targets then laser tag them for better idents. Mission I was just in the seas were very rough and the waves would obscure the view through the periscope on occasion. Luckily, maybe, the view was not bobbing up and down or I'd probably hurl.
Haven't started a campaign yet, but have worked through all the tutorials and a couple of single missions. This could easily eat up a lot of time.
O0 so far.
Urge to buy...rising
Oh no, you do need to work up solutions. Now the computer is doing most of the calcs but you can't just point and fire. With non-guide torps you need to lead and time your shots. The comp. will give you an aiming point based on it's current level of target knowledge. It's current solution strength is displayed as a percentage, 0% bad - 100% perfect.
Quote from: mikeck on June 05, 2017, 06:49:51 PM
Is there a requirement that you develope any type of solution at all for your Torps or missiles or basically donyiu just fire down the bearing and auto-boom
So I fired up the 1968 Permit campaign.
For the wire-guided torps, you can shoot whenever you want. In my 1984 campaign I shot a single torp down each line of bearing to the targets I had, cut the wires, and all three torps still scored kills.
In the 1968 campaign, those are unguided. I just estimated the angle off, but that didn't work. Looked in the manual just now. So you have to wait until you "develop a solution" to some extent - what extent isn't specified - and then you'll get an "aim point" to shoot the torp to that will hit the target provided the target doesn't change course/speed.
Getting up to periscope manually isn't hard, it's just a pain.
It was kind of neat going old school with the periscope to ID and shoot a target, then crank on 20 knots to 800' to evade.
Just a few more notes.
You can actually make knuckles. In fact one of the tutorials shows you how. It's hard to do but you can do it.
There are thermal layers and a conditions display will show you where they are, along with established targets and your depth.
There is a waterfall display. The faster you go, the rougher the seas, the more noise in your area the more muddy the display becomes until it's completely washed out. There is a way to search for a specific pattern but after a while I can see this becoming second nature as it was in RSR.... if my brain will still work that way...
Quote from: Barthheart on June 05, 2017, 04:13:42 PM
Weird.... downloading it here at my home PC it say it's 731MB... ???
That's because of the exchange rate.
Quote from: Toonces on June 05, 2017, 06:59:07 PM
Quote from: mikeck on June 05, 2017, 06:49:51 PM
Is there a requirement that you develope any type of solution at all for your Torps or missiles or basically donyiu just fire down the bearing and auto-boom
So I fired up the 1968 Permit campaign.
For the wire-guided torps, you can shoot whenever you want. In my 1984 campaign I shot a single torp down each line of bearing to the targets I had, cut the wires, and all three torps still scored kills.
In the 1968 campaign, those are unguided. I just estimated the angle off, but that didn't work. Looked in the manual just now. So you have to wait until you "develop a solution" to some extent - what extent isn't specified - and then you'll get an "aim point" to shoot the torp to that will hit the target provided the target doesn't change course/speed.
Getting up to periscope manually isn't hard, it's just a pain.
It was kind of neat going old school with the periscope to ID and shoot a target, then crank on 20 knots to 800' to evade.
I think the "solution extent" you need is 95%. At least that's what I got from the tutorial... and I don't think I seen any aim points below 95%....
Thanks for all the impressions info so far on this thread.
Can you guys who have it tell how deep the campaign is? is there any sort of dynamic skirmish mode?
I think I can swallow the $40 price tag despite the AWSD manual controls as long as it has the long term replayability and depth that RSR had.
Quote from: kludger on June 05, 2017, 08:06:27 PM
Thanks for all the impressions info so far on this thread.
Can you guys who have it tell how deep the campaign is? is there any sort of dynamic skirmish mode?
I think I can swallow the $40 price tag despite the AWSD manual controls as long as it has the long term replayability and depth that RSR had.
Ditto.
Bottom line... is it fun?
I'm having fun.... but I was basically looking for a version of Atlantic Fleet set in WWIII with a proper campaign level... that's what I got I think.. at least so far.
Just started a campaign. Took a bunch of pics. Check out the AAR section of the forum. No idea if it's deep but you can do missions and more.... :-" :-[
http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=19714.0
There are some single set scenarios. Doesn't look like there's a "skirmish" mode.
Thanks for taking time to put up the screen shots. I am definitely leaning towards a buy.
GRAG! You are a scurrilous band of heathenistic rapscallions devoid of fair morals and even a shred of human decency, prone to skylarkings and degeneracy.
You made me buy this.
Actually had some fun with it though, so not riding the regret wagon.
First campaign start, took out a Foxtrot that intercepted me right away. Not sure how smart he was pinging away with active sonar when I gave him a torpedo for his trouble.
Right after though, intercept by a pair of Soviet destroyers. I managed to take them both out, but an apparent errant press of the W key and my eye not on the prize meant my poor boat went to Davy Jones at crush depth. So yeah, I really feel they need more feedback and a few preset hotkeys.
I'm hoping, wishing, dreaming for them to do a DLC with audio cues.
But, I had a lot of fun. It reminded me of a mix of RSR and 688 Attack Sub, but without some of the quality of life interface needs that those games had. It did not remind me of Janes 688 or Dangerous Waters, and that's honestly ok.
I went ahead and took the plunge too and I am glad I did. Knowing what to expect beforehand, I am fine with the controls. I can easily see needing a hotkey to go to periscope depth automatically, because currently you must pay attention or you might breach the surface. Otherwise I like it so far.
I played those other sub sims long ago (Dangerous Waters and 688i) and they were fine for what they were, but what I really wanted was a dynamic campaign like those really great WWII sub sims. I haven't played the campaign yet, though.
This isn't one of those sims where you can go to the passive sonar station and listen to contacts on a waterfall display, but I am not sure I miss that anyway. There are plenty of gadgets to fiddle with that come with an impressive amount of keyboard shortcuts, so print it out.
I am looking forward to playing it more tomorrow.
The manual states you are the Commander and you wouldn't need to worry about usage of sensors and fire control. But they didn't say you're supposed to be the sub driver too! :DD
Regarding the campaign, can you just nuke Moscow and finish the war once and for all? Is nuclear ordinance actually present?
Still... is it worth 40? Or more like 20 at this point?
Just being 'fun' doesn't set it firmly on my to buy list right now for 40 credits.
I decided to reinstall Silent Hunter III due to this thread and immediately uninstalled it.
"Could not locate 3D device" came up as an error. On looking around, I read you have to set your desktop resolution to 1024x768, start the game, set it to window mode, exit the game and then reset your desktop resolution.
I'm not doing that for a game. Not a chance. Besides - I do not like playing in window mode.
So I'll just wait on this getting more positive reviews.
Quote from: jomni on June 06, 2017, 01:47:26 AM
The manual states you are the Commander and you wouldn't need to worry about usage of sensors and fire control. But they didn't say you're supposed to be the sub driver too! :DD
Regarding the campaign, can you just nuke Moscow and finish the war once and for all? Is nuclear ordinance actually present?
You play an attack sub role not a boomer, so no you can't nuke Moscow.
Quote from: Yskonyn on June 06, 2017, 03:37:56 AM
Still... is it worth 40? Or more like 20 at this point?
Just being 'fun' doesn't set it firmly on my to buy list right now for 40 credits.
To me, it's worth the money because it is fun. My dollars per hour gaming from this will steadily drop as I see myself putting a lot of hours into it.
Is anyone else having an issue with run away FPS in menus with vsync off? The game is a slow stutterfest with it on, but off my old ass 450 GTS card runs the game smoothly with all the bells and whistles on. The problem is in menus when the FPS jumps up over 200 and the heat on my video card goes through the roof. :'(
I've noticed the fan on my laptop kicks on pretty quickly after booting the game up, but I don't know about runaway FPS. Certainly the game is causing my computer to work.
Glad to hear that many of you are enjoying this game. I'm still on the fence. I played it a bit more last night, but I'm afraid this might be a bit too lite for my tastes. I'm going to wait a bit longer to see if the chatter can get me enthusiastic for the game. I'm kind of not feeling it right now.
^Given the game's lineage, I'm really not sure what you were expecting. It seems like you may have had some unreasonable expectations of what this game was going to be, bud. Some of the missing UI features seem like a correctable problem and they don't seem game breaking. But in terms of gameplay and mechanics, this was never going to be A high fidelity simulator, or even something mildly resembling one. By most reports, it does seem very similar to RSR though.
Nup. Hate it. Had a go, absolutely disgusting to control and play. Im still gonna make a video on it, but its gonna come with a massive warning about the sheer awkwardness of playing with incremental controls
It works on an atom processor with XP... amazing!
Quote from: JudgeDredd on June 06, 2017, 03:44:50 AM
I decided to reinstall Silent Hunter III due to this thread and immediately uninstalled it.
"Could not locate 3D device" came up as an error.
Had the same problem. Switching my monitor refresh rate to 60 Hz fixed it (was set on 59 Hz). No need to change screen resolution or other fixes.
I also use this mod : Ahnenerbe WideGui 1920 x 1080 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=215433) (this mod is compatible with GWX and can be installed using JGSME)
Found this new (uploaded 21 hours ago) video about
Cold Waters:
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 06, 2017, 07:24:23 AM
^Given the game's lineage, I'm really not sure what you were expecting. It seems like you may have had some unreasonable expectations of what this game was going to be, bud. Some of the missing UI features seem like a correctable problem and they don't seem game breaking. But in terms of gameplay and mechanics, this was never going to be A high fidelity simulator, or even something mildly resembling one. By most reports, it does seem very similar to RSR though.
Sounds like you're agreeing with RyanE. What's next, dogs and cats living together?
Quote from: Toonces on June 06, 2017, 10:18:50 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 06, 2017, 07:24:23 AM
^Given the game's lineage, I'm really not sure what you were expecting. It seems like you may have had some unreasonable expectations of what this game was going to be, bud. Some of the missing UI features seem like a correctable problem and they don't seem game breaking. But in terms of gameplay and mechanics, this was never going to be A high fidelity simulator, or even something mildly resembling one. By most reports, it does seem very similar to RSR though.
Sounds like you're agreeing with RyanE. What's next, dogs and cats living together?
Haha! No. human sacrifice.
^Phew, I'm safe.
Quote from: Pete Dero on June 06, 2017, 08:55:18 AM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on June 06, 2017, 03:44:50 AM
I decided to reinstall Silent Hunter III due to this thread and immediately uninstalled it.
"Could not locate 3D device" came up as an error.
Had the same problem. Switching my monitor refresh rate to 60 Hz fixed it (was set on 59 Hz). No need to change screen resolution or other fixes.
I also use this mod : Ahnenerbe WideGui 1920 x 1080 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=215433) (this mod is compatible with GWX and can be installed using JGSME)
Thanks - I'll have a go O0
First video by someone who plays games like Dangerous Waters on a regular basis.
For those of you still on the fence about CW there are a new series of videos on YouTube by JiveTurkey. He's a former Navy Submariner who was assigned to a 688. He really know his stuff and already has the game pretty much nailed. The first of his videos is entitled:
"Cold Waters: Greenland Sea Convoy Hunt" just in case I've screwed up the following link. BTW having played KillerFish games previous titles Atlantic Fleet and Pacific Fleet I knew exactly what to expect from this game and I'm finding it very enjoyable. Personally I'm not having a problem with steering the sub, at least it gives you more to do and keeps you very involved and on your toes. I do agree that they need to implement a periscope depth hotkey though. I am glad that it is real-time and I'm hoping that eventually KF Games will revisit surface battles and create a new one in real-time as well. My request would be a Dreadnought Era one taking you right into WW1.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ5qDn0KM8E
Follow-up to my last post and referencing Jive Turkey's series of CW videos. For those of you who want to know if the game is fun I call your attention to his latest submission: "Cold Waters: Long Shot". If this one video doesn't demonstrate what fun is to you then nothing ever will. If KF supports this game as much as they did AF then we have a long-term gem on our hands.
Quote from: Capn Darwin on June 06, 2017, 06:42:05 AM
Is anyone else having an issue with run away FPS in menus with vsync off? The game is a slow stutterfest with it on, but off my old ass 450 GTS card runs the game smoothly with all the bells and whistles on. The problem is in menus when the FPS jumps up over 200 and the heat on my video card goes through the roof. :'(
Lower the Anti-Aliasing a notch or two, to lower the stuttering.
It starts off at maximum by default.
Leave the V-sync on because the Unity engine will just run your video card at maximum burn the whole time otherwise. Vsync will keep it from going thermonuclear.
Quote from: kludger on June 05, 2017, 08:06:27 PM
Thanks for all the impressions info so far on this thread.
Can you guys who have it tell how deep the campaign is? is there any sort of dynamic skirmish mode?
I think I can swallow the $40 price tag despite the AWSD manual controls as long as it has the long term replayability and depth that RSR had.
The campaign is dynamic.
You'll be assigned one procedurally generated mission at a time. But you move around on the campaign map manually, encountering various groups to attack/avoid as needed.
The campaign isn't "canned". Which is a big PRO. :bd:
Quote from: trek on June 06, 2017, 12:48:18 PM
Follow-up to my last post and referencing Jive Turkey's series of CW videos. For those of you who want to know if the game is fun I call your attention to his latest submission: "Cold Waters: Long Shot". If this one video doesn't demonstrate what fun is to you then nothing ever will. If KF supports this game as much as they did AF then we have a long-term gem on our hands.
FPSchazly also did a live play, and posted it on YouTube.
He's been making Dangerous Waters vids for a long time, and knows his stuff.
I caught the tail end of it while I was downloading CW. Was some serious Pucker Factor fun, seeing him counter & dodge a torpedo that nearly rubbed the coating off the side of his sub at one point.
Ok, so I watched Jive Turkey's three videos. I'm playing this game wrong. I kind of knew that I suppose, because I remember the tactical display in RSR playing more like an arcade game than simulation.
JT is staying mostly in 3D mode and flying his sub around, and generally spending way more time enjoying the scenery than I was doing. I need to go into this with more of an arcade game mindset. It certainly looks like he's having fun.
I think I'll go ahead and keep the game since I already paid for it. I can use it as a palette cleanser, or when I want to get my sub on, but don't want to go all hardcore CMANO, DW, SH, etc.
Good call on the videos, though. You (I) definitely get a better sense of what the developers were likely going for watching JT play.
Quote from: Nefaro on June 06, 2017, 01:22:38 PM
The campaign is dynamic.
You'll be assigned one procedurally generated mission at a time. But you move around on the campaign map manually, encountering various groups to attack/avoid as needed.
The campaign isn't "canned". Which is a big PRO. :bd:
Thanks for that confirmation, agreed, that's a huge PRO and just made the sale for me (along with the great shared impressions and videos in the thread).
Ok, I'm not going to lie. I just had a lot of fun.
I didn't realize how to select your submarine until I read the manual (I sound like JD). ::) So by pressing A and D you can select different types of subs. I booted up the 1968 campaign and played as a Skipjack class sub, the crappiest one in the game. Took my first mission to attack an amphibious group. I accidentally broke my periscope because I clicked off periscope view, but not down scope.
Anyway, I tried to do a submerged run in and got boxed in bad by two ASW ships. I snapshot torps at both and got one just as he unloaded ASW rockets on me.
Playing the game in 3D mode is way more fun. There were explosions everywhere, I took some damage, got one kill, but the other guy was working with a May and they just savaged me. Flying around in 3D mode watching the action is definitely the call.
^Seems like a lot of people are figuring it out. Reviews on Steam have gone from "mixed" yesterday, to "very positive" today...
Quote from: kludger on June 06, 2017, 02:25:54 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on June 06, 2017, 01:22:38 PM
The campaign is dynamic.
You'll be assigned one procedurally generated mission at a time. But you move around on the campaign map manually, encountering various groups to attack/avoid as needed.
The campaign isn't "canned". Which is a big PRO. :bd:
Thanks for that confirmation, agreed, that's a huge PRO and just made the sale for me (along with the great shared impressions and videos in the thread).
O0
Just keep in mind that there are specific keyboard & mouse inputs, listed in the manual, that will help you out quite a bit. Not always listed in the key command list, at the back, either.
For example, the campaign map to battle map transition has a factor many people are overlooking. Even veterans sub simmers. Both Left- and Right-Mouse buttons have movement functions on the campaign map. The left is for moving full speed, the right for a slower cruise speed which allows you to begin battles at a slower speed. Which is very important for detection purposes - both ways. Mentioned on page 44.
Keep seeing YT'ers wondering why they're starting off each battle at 29 knots - being detected early, and closer to their intended prey, than they'd like. Not knowing the movement commands was giving them a more difficult start. :D
^ Yes.
If you can find a spot on the enemy's path and wait stopped for him to come to you, you get a much more distant start, and your boat will start at 5kt.
I'll tell ya, you guys better wear your big boy pants for the 1968 campaign. That is friggin' brutal. And Skipjack? Suicide! Good luck!
I just had a killer mission in my second sub, a Sturgeon-class. Hunting a Foxtrot, got him finally, mostly through luck. Was trying to clear datum from one of my own circling torps that was ringing around the Fox's wreckage, and stupidly went to flank, cavitating to get on with it so I could exit mission.
Didn't realize there was a Bear up there still hunting me.
This is something you really, really don't want to see.
Edit: crap, the screenshot didn't save. I was near the bottom in 3D and you could see the shadow of the bear on top of me as it dropped its torp. It was pretty epic.
Anyway, here's me getting the Foxtrot, before the Bear got me.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi263.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii123%2Ftoonces3%2FColdWaters%25202017-06-06%252018-05-59-10_zpsiti1gpbl.jpg&hash=4373d1a8a0c46acab2560cc99ca376dce97806c6)
So far this thing is more fun than crashing an orgy at the Playboy Mansion.
Going to be another long night tonight.
So after initial impressions were a little meh....I'm assuming this now has the general Grogheads thumbs up?
I think so.
I've come around. It took me a while to appreciate what the devs are going for, but now that I'm getting the hang of it, it's pretty fun. Hard. I'm having little luck playing anything but the 688, so if you're looking for a challenge, there is one to be had here.
Quote from: SirAndrewD on June 06, 2017, 05:42:01 PM
So far this thing is more fun than crashing an orgy at the Playboy Mansion.
You, sir, have clearly NEVER crashed an orgy at the Playboy Mansion.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 06, 2017, 07:28:53 PM
Quote from: SirAndrewD on June 06, 2017, 05:42:01 PM
So far this thing is more fun than crashing an orgy at the Playboy Mansion.
You, sir, have clearly NEVER crashed an orgy at the Playboy Mansion.
And if I did, I'd likely be arrested very roughly and spent quite some time behind bars, getting a very different experience from the one I'd get at an orgy at the Playboy mansion.
So, I stand by my opinion that Cold Waters is more fun.
It's a brutal teacher. Firing a Harpoon at an ASW cruiser gets you a missile delivered torpedo for your trouble.
Quote from: Swatter on June 06, 2017, 08:58:21 PM
It's a brutal teacher. Firing a Harpoon at an ASW cruiser gets you a missile delivered torpedo for your trouble.
True...but Harpoons are just so deadly. Thing of beauty.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 06, 2017, 09:13:15 PM
Quote from: Swatter on June 06, 2017, 08:58:21 PM
It's a brutal teacher. Firing a Harpoon at an ASW cruiser gets you a missile delivered torpedo for your trouble.
True...but Harpoons are just so deadly. Thing of beauty.
They may get one off, but 4 Harpoons into a surface flotilla is an alpha strike face wrecker. Just be ready to go to flank, pop a decoy and dive and make knuckles right after the missiles are away.
Quote from: SirAndrewD on June 06, 2017, 09:15:44 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 06, 2017, 09:13:15 PM
Quote from: Swatter on June 06, 2017, 08:58:21 PM
It's a brutal teacher. Firing a Harpoon at an ASW cruiser gets you a missile delivered torpedo for your trouble.
True...but Harpoons are just so deadly. Thing of beauty.
They may get one off, but 4 Harpoons into a surface flotilla is an alpha strike face wrecker. Just be ready to go to flank, pop a decoy and dive and make knuckles right after the missiles are away.
This was a favorite technique in red storm rising. Pump out a bunch of harpoons, dive deep, and flank speed. When the return torps hit where you were, and start circling, immediately turn away, and slow down. Worked like a champ.
I am having trouble with aircraft at the moment. It seems like they can get a general fix on you most of the time, but have trouble getting a firing solution. Do they have some sort of magnetic anomaly detector or something?
Quote from: Swatter on June 06, 2017, 11:43:55 PM
I am having trouble with aircraft at the moment. It seems like they can get a general fix on you most of the time, but have trouble getting a firing solution. Do they have some sort of magnetic anomaly detector or something?
At the very least some variants had a MAD, "Tu-142M2 'Bear-F Mod 3' Model with a new magnetic anomaly detector (MAD)".
Quote from: Swatter on June 06, 2017, 11:43:55 PM
I am having trouble with aircraft at the moment. It seems like they can get a general fix on you most of the time, but have trouble getting a firing solution. Do they have some sort of magnetic anomaly detector or something?
They shouldn't work well if you are deep.
Thought I saw something in the manual about them only working on you when at less than 500 ft depth (and, of course, the a/c flying almost directly overhead).
I've not tested this out in the game yet.
Even if some aren't equipped with MAD, the fixed-wing ASW patrol craft have many sonobuoys to drop. They must use them quite liberally. Those are more reliable at detecting you, nearby. I don't think you can detect them splashing into the water near you, in-game, either.
They should be using sonobuoys to get a good fix on you for aerial torpedo launches. So if they're dropping torpedoes on you, the aircraft has likely dropped sonobuoys nearby beforehand.
Doesn't Russian tactics typically use active sonobuoys so you should be able to see/hear them?
Quote from: jamus34 on June 07, 2017, 05:02:02 AM
Doesn't Russian tactics typically use active sonobuoys so you should be able to see/hear them?
I've seen active sonobouys on the tactical display... :o
Bought #:-)
I haven't experimented with the difficulty settings yet, but I'm reading on the subsim forums that at higher difficulties the Russians use their active a lot less.
I wouldn't be surprised if it also made ownship torps a little less laser-like.
Might be worth trying out when I boot it up later. Frankly, outside of the 688 I am having a pretty tough time on normal difficulty. I was driving a Narwhal around like an F1 car last night, dodged about 8 torps before one finally got me.
In case people want to mod the game or make missions :
Modding Guide by Killerfish Games - Creating custom content for Cold Waters.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=938593459
Quote from: Barthheart on June 07, 2017, 06:31:53 AM
Quote from: jamus34 on June 07, 2017, 05:02:02 AM
Doesn't Russian tactics typically use active sonobuoys so you should be able to see/hear them?
I've seen active sonobouys on the tactical display... :o
Yes, they show up on the tac display. But I'm not sure if you'll always detect them.
Their splashdowns may not show up if your sub is going so fast that it's sonar is washed out.
Not sure if this is the case, or whether you always hear them within a certain range of your sub.
Quote from: Nefaro on June 07, 2017, 08:53:37 AM
Quote from: Barthheart on June 07, 2017, 06:31:53 AM
Quote from: jamus34 on June 07, 2017, 05:02:02 AM
Doesn't Russian tactics typically use active sonobuoys so you should be able to see/hear them?
I've seen active sonobouys on the tactical display... :o
Yes, they show up on the tac display. But I'm not sure if you'll always detect them.
Their splashdowns may not show up if your sub is going so fast that it's sonar is washed out.
Not sure if this is the case, or whether you always hear them within a certain range of your sub.
Well I did get what seemed like small cinematics showing the Bear dropping the bouy and is splashing in... not sure if I saw that because I was poking around in 3rd person or becasaue I was close enough to actually hear the event...
Quote from: Toonces on June 07, 2017, 06:44:37 AM
I haven't experimented with the difficulty settings yet, but I'm reading on the subsim forums that at higher difficulties the Russians use their active a lot less.
I wouldn't be surprised if it also made ownship torps a little less laser-like.
Might be worth trying out when I boot it up later. Frankly, outside of the 688 I am having a pretty tough time on normal difficulty. I was driving a Narwhal around like an F1 car last night, dodged about 8 torps before one finally got me.
Saw a dev post that difficulty settings are just multipliers for things like sonar effectiveness, hull integrity, etc for both sides.
His posted numbers indicated that the "Hard" difficulty all had x1 on everything except enemy hull integrity, which was set to x1.15.
Not sure if there is a behavior difference, other than what is dictated by higher/lower effectiveness.
Quote from: Barthheart on June 07, 2017, 08:56:17 AM
Quote from: Nefaro on June 07, 2017, 08:53:37 AM
Quote from: Barthheart on June 07, 2017, 06:31:53 AM
Quote from: jamus34 on June 07, 2017, 05:02:02 AM
Doesn't Russian tactics typically use active sonobuoys so you should be able to see/hear them?
I've seen active sonobouys on the tactical display... :o
Yes, they show up on the tac display. But I'm not sure if you'll always detect them.
Their splashdowns may not show up if your sub is going so fast that it's sonar is washed out.
Not sure if this is the case, or whether you always hear them within a certain range of your sub.
Well I did get what seemed like small cinematics showing the Bear dropping the bouy and is splashing in... not sure if I saw that because I was poking around in 3rd person or becasaue I was close enough to actually hear the event...
There is an audio sound you'll hear, if your 3D view is close to it. You may have been hooked to the aircraft (F4), or perhaps close to the surface watching your sub.
They're displayed as a flashing dot, with a circle of dots around it. Kinda like a decoy symbol.
Quote from: Nefaro on June 07, 2017, 08:58:43 AM
There is an audio sound you'll hear, if your 3D view is close to it. You may have been hooked to the aircraft (F4), or perhaps close to the surface watching your sub.
They're displayed as a flashing dot, with a circle of dots around it. Kinda like a decoy symbol.
Yeah the flashing dot with dots around it is what I saw and misidentified it as a decoy... which is a dot with dashes around it.... :P
After a short time getting used to it, the sub steering isn't all that bad. Kinda enjoyable at times, as long as torpedo panic doesn't put you in a rush to jockey the planes & ballast. :D
My biggest concern is the Terminator-like fixed wing aircraft. Something is wrong with them, because they're unerringly flying directly over your sub. Even when you're Deep & Creepy. :arr:
At first I thought it might be way overpowered MAD sensors on the aircraft. But it may be something else.
Devs reportedly looking into it.
Despite some bugs, this thing is a blast. Decent challenge, too. :bd:
Yikes..
Ran into that bug where it won't let you leave the scenario unless you sail all the way to the red map edge. With the bugged ASW aircraft stuck to you the whole way. :o
I'll probably have to hard exit out of that battle. :-\
Definitely needs some bugs fixed.
The Devs are working on the asw aircraft and can't exit issues per threads on Steam.
Dammit....I miss the 1980's Cold War. It even made the olympics more interesting.
Haven't played a sub game since Silent Service 2. This one looks like it hits a nice middle ground between hardcore and Arcady, I'll get this soon. I think Jive Turkeys vids pushed me over the edge. Thanks for all the impressions,,it helped lead me to buy another game I don't need, damn grogs.
Glad to be of service! :bd:
Quote from: mikeck on June 07, 2017, 01:44:39 PM
Dammit....I miss the 1980's Cold War. It even made the olympics more interesting.
The looming threat of nuclear annihilation was a small price to pay for this. ;D
I kid. Growing up in the Reagan years, I too have a lot of nostalgia for Cold War stuff. Red Dawn made a deep impression on me :)
Wargames and Ally Sheedy :smitten:
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/vdJiFMjzZ2M/hqdefault.jpg)
Wargames is an absolute classic. Never had a thing for Ally Sheedy though. The chick in Ferris Bueller's Day Off on the other hand...
Quote from: sandman2575 on June 07, 2017, 03:11:53 PM
The chick in Ferris Bueller's Day Off on the other hand...
Mia Sara
Quote from: OJsDad on June 07, 2017, 03:11:49 PM
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/vdJiFMjzZ2M/hqdefault.jpg)
That takes me back
Someone explain how a thread on submarine warfare turned into a wankfest???
Quote from: jamus34 on June 07, 2017, 03:26:14 PM
Someone explain how a thread on submarine warfare turned into a wankfest???
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/7a/d5/bf/7ad5bfe4cd761125ecb469e50cfd42f8.jpg)
Quote from: jamus34 on June 07, 2017, 03:26:14 PM
Someone explain how a thread on submarine warfare turned into a wankfest???
Its grogheads. Duh. \m/
Quote from: jamus34 on June 07, 2017, 03:26:14 PM
Someone explain how a thread on submarine warfare turned into a wankfest???
you must be new here
Quote from: mirth on June 07, 2017, 03:31:26 PM
Quote from: jamus34 on June 07, 2017, 03:26:14 PM
Someone explain how a thread on submarine warfare turned into a wankfest???
you must be new here
He has been here for over a year. No excuse.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 07, 2017, 03:27:51 PM
Quote from: jamus34 on June 07, 2017, 03:26:14 PM
Someone explain how a thread on submarine warfare turned into a wankfest???
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/7a/d5/bf/7ad5bfe4cd761125ecb469e50cfd42f8.jpg)
How long have you been waiting to whip out that meme to use here.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 07, 2017, 03:27:51 PM
Quote from: jamus34 on June 07, 2017, 03:26:14 PM
Someone explain how a thread on submarine warfare turned into a wankfest???
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/7a/d5/bf/7ad5bfe4cd761125ecb469e50cfd42f8.jpg)
Papa class. Only one built. Wicked fast.
Quote from: mirth on June 07, 2017, 03:19:41 PM
Mia Sara
was smokin'
OK, back to seamen-bearing submarines.
dongle
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 07, 2017, 03:27:51 PM
Quote from: jamus34 on June 07, 2017, 03:26:14 PM
Someone explain how a thread on submarine warfare turned into a wankfest???
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/7a/d5/bf/7ad5bfe4cd761125ecb469e50cfd42f8.jpg)
Serve...set...and SPIKE
Quote from: jamus34 on June 07, 2017, 03:26:14 PM
Someone explain how a thread on submarine warfare turned into a wankfest???
Isn't there something in the forum rules that requires it?
Thought I'd tune in and see how the verdict on the game was progressing.
Never mind.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Forig14.deviantart.net%2Fda1d%2Ff%2F2017%2F158%2F0%2F9%2Fixnyrul8c_by_jack_o_tales-dbbwlub.jpg&hash=74602646b3d84c43981b85d6626b008631a17d32)
Quote from: sandman2575 on June 07, 2017, 02:47:01 PM
Quote from: mikeck on June 07, 2017, 01:44:39 PM
Dammit....I miss the 1980's Cold War. It even made the olympics more interesting.
The looming threat of nuclear annihilation was a small price to pay for this. ;D
I kid. Growing up in the Reagan years, I too have a lot of nostalgia for Cold War stuff. Red Dawn made a deep impression on me :)
My father was an active duty Marine Officer so I was really immersed in it. Everything he trained for, every weapon developed and every operation was in preparation for the inevitable war.
I played RSR back then and I would cheat just so NATO would wipe the floor with the WP. I would start a scenario and then after a few seconds, select "view replay". The replay would show exactly where the enemy was. Would go back to the game and fire on those positions. Fun? Maybe not, but I was 13 and all I wanted to do was blow up pinko-commie ships (and fiddle with my dongle). Good old days
Having played the tutorials. Wish they made on-screen buttons instead of letting us memorize all those the keys.
Quote from: jomni on June 07, 2017, 05:33:00 PM
Having played the tutorials. Wish they made on-screen buttons instead of letting us memorize all those the keys.
...and for the few buttons that are there, no tool tips...
Yeah no tool tips, same with the current buttons.
So gotta print out that key reference for now.
By the way, why is distance measured in yards? Why not nautical miles?
Barth, if you have event camera set to on in the options settings, that might be why you're seeing sonobuoy drops by the Bears.
Quote from: Toonces on June 07, 2017, 08:33:05 PM
Barth, if you have event camera set to on in the options settings, that might be why you're seeing sonobuoy drops by the Bears.
Ahhh... yep that could be it.
Quote from: Toonces on June 07, 2017, 08:33:05 PM
Barth, if you have event camera set to on in the options settings, that might be why you're seeing sonobuoy drops by the Bears.
Forgot I turned that off. Gave a bit too much weapon launch info, I thought.
Seemed a bit too much of the cheaty to me, but I may not understand the parameters for what it decides to show.
We may well be detecting surface ships firing their rocket-delivered ASW torpedoes via sonar; I dunno. That could warrant those early 'action cam' tip-offs if it were the case. Plus it probably makes up for the lack of crew voice-overs, or UI warnings, when your sonar crew detects such things.
Plus it can be a pain, having to regularly hit F1 to move my camera view back to own sub after the camera gets hijacked.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 07, 2017, 06:12:54 PM
Quote from: jomni on June 07, 2017, 05:33:00 PM
Having played the tutorials. Wish they made on-screen buttons instead of letting us memorize all those the keys.
...and for the few buttons that are there, no tool tips...
That.
Also I noticed it won't repeat an issue. For example, press 0 to put up your periscope when you are below 50ft and it'll tell you you can't put up the mast below 50ft. It'll do the same for the ESM and Radar mast.
Try it again and it won't give you the error. I don't know if it's like that for other messages or if there's a time when it might show the message again.
Small point - but without that feedback, I thought my ESM mast was up one time.
Another thing was the Bear. I just wasn't understanding how it was flying DIRECTLY over me every single time it came by...regardless of what I did and where I was. I was dropping noise makers, flank speed, turning, slowing to creep, diving and still, for 30 minutes, it continued to fly around AND directly over me. I followed it a couple of times and didn't see it dropping anything.
And finally a thing I noticed was torpedoes and noise makers. I thought the idea of a noise maker was to attract the torpedo, no? If so, that's NOT what it was doing. The torpedo would get a ping on me and head towards me, I'd drop a noise maker and the torpedo would head off on it's search pattern. It could be I've got it wrong and the idea of a noise maker is to create noise to disrupt the torpedo.
Having said that, I played the first tutorial 3 times last night and the second tutorial twice and really enjoyed it. I was rather excited trying to lose those torpedoes that the Bear dropped.
So far, O0 O0
I'd like to make YT vid(s) with Tips & Tricks.
I've watched a few different people's game play videos. Noticed they're overlooking things mentioned in the manual, or are giving themselves a more difficult time due to lack of experience with modern sub sim things. Which, admittedly, isn't common knowledge.
It's also been evident that past experience playing the old Red Storm Rising game pays off, since CW is similar in so many ways. I played that oldie so much, I still remember a lot about it, along with a lot of sub sim nerd-knowledge I've picked up since.
Unfortunately I don't have a good mic for long strolls down Babble Stream Lane, along with some other less than ideal vid recording issues. Maybe I can whip something up in awhile, though. Old fashioned pics, if nothing else. Although the manual is a decent primer on the basics (plus essential hotkeys).
Quote from: JudgeDredd on June 08, 2017, 01:02:45 AM
Also I noticed it won't repeat an issue. For example, press 0 to put up your periscope when you are below 50ft and it'll tell you you can't put up the mast below 50ft. It'll do the same for the ESM and Radar mast.
Try it again and it won't give you the error. I don't know if it's like that for other messages or if there's a time when it might show the message again.
Small point - but without that feedback, I thought my ESM mast was up one time.
In the top right of the screen, you should see the little status notification indicators for those. The little orange boxes with symbols.
While they don't have tooltips, you can learn what the symbols mean. They're also listed in the manual.
There are some for having your various masts up. Along with other indicators, such as when you're cavitating (bad!), when a torpedo has acquired you and is homing (I'm told this is probably bad too!), and numerous others. Very handy!
Quote
Another thing was the Bear. I just wasn't understanding how it was flying DIRECTLY over me every single time it came by...regardless of what I did and where I was. I was dropping noise makers, flank speed, turning, slowing to creep, diving and still, for 30 minutes, it continued to fly around AND directly over me. I followed it a couple of times and didn't see it dropping anything.
Known bug.
Devs have stated that the MAD equipment on the ASW planes is performing wayyyyy too good. He said that it can detect you out to a few thousand yards. Which is nuts because I always heard & read that they only worked against subs at pretty shallow depth. Getting fixed as we speak, amongst some other things.
Quote
And finally a thing I noticed was torpedoes and noise makers. I thought the idea of a noise maker was to attract the torpedo, no? If so, that's NOT what it was doing. The torpedo would get a ping on me and head towards me, I'd drop a noise maker and the torpedo would head off on it's search pattern. It could be I've got it wrong and the idea of a noise maker is to create noise to disrupt the torpedo.
Homing torpedoes have counter-countermeasure logic programmed in. Many of them will "drive around" a noisemaker when it detects some decoy funkiness happened, and that it's single target suddenly became more than one, or a wall of noise. Which can give it a better chance of getting to the real target faster, again, on the other side. Or come around for a re-attack.
They often swing around, instead of driving through.
It's briefly mentioned in the manual, too. And probably the in-game manual (F1). So WAI.
I do think the UI could've used more information to help people get acquainted with commands, indicators, etc. Especially people who haven't played modern sub sims much, because there is a lot of little things to learn.
I chalk up the lack of UI information to it being a game engine (and developer?) which got it's start as tablet software. Their previous game was a port, and also was rather thin on PC-friendly UI stuff too. I suppose they'll eventually learn the ways of PC UI over time.
Quote
Having said that, I played the first tutorial 3 times last night and the second tutorial twice and really enjoyed it. I was rather excited trying to lose those torpedoes that the Bear dropped.
So far, O0 O0
:bd:
I'm :smitten:
Will be even more so after the bugs get fixed.
Seems like it's getting pretty positive feedback on the playthrough vids, despite some release bugs and the poor noobs having a tough go while learning. If it does as well as I think, hopefully we'll get the proposed DLC with other playable nations & campaigns too. :dreamer:
Definitely a new, prettier RSR! :clap:
I did see the icons. I was just pointing out that it gives you a message and then doesn't repeat that when you try again. It was only the first time I was caught out with that. The icons (at least the ones I have come across) are pretty self explanatory.
Thanks for the info on the torps and noise makers. I literally had about 2 hours with it last night and was just playing around with the mechanics of moving, firing, camera, depth, speed, interface etc, etc. The nuances of some of the detail in the game will come as more is played and I reference the manual for things I don't get. But last night's two hours was about evaluating my new purchase as a game - and it bode very well.
Some tool tips would be handy, but overall with the key commands printed out there's a pick up and go game there.
Playing in the 1984 scenario, if the game accurately depicts system capabilities, Los Angeles class subs were very superior platforms and posed a significant risk to both surface and sub-surface groups. Your ability to stay quiet and deploy highly effective torpedoes is a devastating combo.
I have sent Victor I & IIs to the bottom without much effort. The Alpha's are a good opponent, though. When piloting an Alpha, the AI should attempt to rely on the capabilities of the boat, rather than actively pinging the sonar. Even when they are pinging, I've had trouble effectively engaging Alpha's.
Another thing, the ability to deploy your smart torpedoes en mass in the middle of a surface group is devastating. I wonder if this is over powered at the moment?
Also, a quick note I haven't hardly seen mentioned- your sub on the campaign map can get stuck in land masses, particularly when going into port. Don't attempt to steer all the way into port, just click on the anchor icon at the top when you are near a naval base to dock.
Btw, this game is very much what I wanted it to be. I am a happy camper. I suspect this game will be a classic after a few patches.
Quote from: Swatter on June 08, 2017, 01:37:03 PM
Playing in the 1984 scenario, if the game accurately depicts system capabilities, Los Angeles class subs were very superior platforms and posed a significant risk to both surface and sub-surface groups. Your ability to stay quiet and deploy highly effective torpedoes is a devastating combo.
I have sent Victor I & IIs to the bottom without much effort. The Alpha's are a good opponent, though. When piloting an Alpha, the AI should attempt to rely on the capabilities of the boat, rather than actively pinging the sonar. Even when they are pinging, I've had trouble effectively engaging Alpha's.
Another thing, the ability to deploy your smart torpedoes en mass in the middle of a surface group is devastating. I wonder if this is over powered at the moment?
Also, a quick note I haven't hardly seen mentioned- your sub on the campaign map can get stuck in land masses, particularly when going into port. Don't attempt to steer all the way into port, just click on the anchor icon at the top when you are near a naval base to dock.
Btw, this game is very much what I wanted it to be. I am a happy camper. I suspect this game will be a classic after a few patches.
I've seen a few complaints about Soviet subs using active sonar.
But, at the time, their Passive Sonar capabilities sucked. Especially since the majority of American subs had much better quieting.
From what I read on the subject, during the Cold War period the Soviets would resort to using active sonar more readily. Because their active sonar capabilities were far better than their passive. So they would likely use it more often, in a shooting war, if they suspected a quiet enemy boat lurking about. Surface ships especially.
I noticed that Soviet subs in CW will often start pinging after you launch something. When they detect submerged launch transients spiking their passive sonar. They probably only get a brief hit, and then lose you again after you're done firing, so they turn on the active sonar pinging to attempt getting a better solution for a return shot. It's what I'd do, if I were blind and briefly heard someone shooting at me. <:-)
They may also similarly start up if you were using LMB to move into the encounter on the campaign map, thus starting you off at 26-29 knots. Which means they may start off the combat actually hearing you, when running that fast & loud. Then, after you slow down to a creep and listen, you drop off their passive sonar. So they may start panicking, knowing you're out there listening to them and preparing to shoot.
Saw a couple older interviews with ex-Soviet sub skippers talking about that period. How their sonar tech wasn't comparably good enough, so they had to make up for it with action.
In CW, you can see an ID'd target's current sonar detection ratings, against you, at the bottom of the contact window (below your own->them). IIRC, each sonar needs a +10 to get an initial contact, but only a 0 or 1 to keep/regain it. It's based on how good your solution on the target is, of course, because it takes range, speed, depth, class, etc into account. But you can get an idea just how much better the Soviet's active sonar is, on nearly all their vessels, by these numbers in-game. ^-^
From what I know of the era and note I was only a kid then and I do not have a professional military background, but the Russians knew their hardware was inferior so they developed other tactics to compensate. Wolfpack hunting groups, combined surface / aircraft and sub joint operations and when in doubt active ping the hell out of an area to try to flush a boat.
I'm so busy playing ME Andromeda, Steel Division Normandy, and Ultimate General Civil War that I won't be able to work this one in for a while yet, but I figured it's going to be a long time before the price goes down and I will certainly get to it before then, so I went ahead and splurged for it.
I already don't have enough time to play the games I've got, so I don't mind waiting. Based on what I hear here, I think it will be a much better game once they fix the OP ASW planes and do things like adding a hot key for periscope depth, so that's even more bonus points for waiting.
Well something has dragged me away from Ghost Recon:Wildlands!
If normal difficulty is giving the U.S. boats a sonar range advantage, then that might be making the 688 seem OP.
Or maybe it is just that good.
Quote from: Toonces on June 08, 2017, 04:00:21 PM
If normal difficulty is giving the U.S. boats a sonar range advantage, then that might be making the 688 seem OP.
Or maybe it is just that good.
It's a 1984 campaign, right? The 688s were way ahead of anything the Sovs had in 84. They should seem OP because they were.
Is towed array automatically deployed?
I believe so. I've just done the Sensors tutorial and it mentioned towed array and how it worked and I didn't have to deploy it
^I noticed the same thing. I believe I read a thread in the steam forums that confirmed it is automatic. Apparently, it was automatic in RSR, as well.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 08, 2017, 05:58:02 PM
^I noticed the same thing. I believe I read a thread in the steam forums that confirmed it is automatic. Apparently, it was automatic in RSR, as well.
Correct...I think it was reeled in if you weren't moving at all, moving >20 kn, or too low (not sure if it was just below the layer or if you were within XXX ft of the bottom)
I think I still may have the RSR book...but not certain.
I know I still have my Bards Tale 3 and Wasteland manuals :D
Quote from: jomni on June 08, 2017, 05:46:49 PM
Is towed array automatically deployed?
Yeah, it's always out. You don't have to mess with it.
A developer stated that they were having a problem with it showing in the 3D engine, and had been working on fixing it's display. But it's there & working.
I also noticed that CW may model your towed array being dragged on the bottom. Not sure, yet, how much clearance you need to keep it operating yet, But when I've been somewhat close to the bottom, I start losing distant contacts. If this is what's going on, I'm glad they have it modeled. O0
So now I can confidently tell you that the game models expenditure of torpedoes and sonobuoys from the Bears. Don't ask how I know this. ::)
Quote from: Toonces on June 08, 2017, 09:10:03 PM
So now I can confidently tell you that the game models expenditure of torpedoes and sonobuoys from the Bears. Don't ask how I know this. ::)
Pray tell, Toonces, how do you know this? >:D
Quote from: JudgeDredd on June 08, 2017, 11:20:33 PM
Quote from: Toonces on June 08, 2017, 09:10:03 PM
So now I can confidently tell you that the game models expenditure of torpedoes and sonobuoys from the Bears. Don't ask how I know this. ::)
Pray tell, Toonces, how do you know this? >:D
Probably the same way as others.
Through punishment.
>:D
Quote from: Nefaro on June 08, 2017, 11:47:20 PM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on June 08, 2017, 11:20:33 PM
Quote from: Toonces on June 08, 2017, 09:10:03 PM
So now I can confidently tell you that the game models expenditure of torpedoes and sonobuoys from the Bears. Don't ask how I know this. ::)
Pray tell, Toonces, how do you know this? >:D
Probably the same way as others.
Through punishment.
>:D
Yeah, probably did the same as I did last night and tried to evade a brutally relentless Bear for an hour. I felt like I was in that old Anthony Hopkins movie the Edge.
Having the played each of the tutorials several times, I was fairly confident at starting a campaign.
Choose 1984 and went to see. Start map stopped pitting me against a submarine contact. Turns out it was 2 Romeo SS.
Avoided the first torp launched by the first one and was hit by a second. Planes up, increase speed to 2/3, and take on ballast to get up to control the flooding. Flooding came under control about 600ft. I fired a torp, taking it out.
I then went to locate the second one. His active sonar kicked in. As I wasn't able to get a decent solution I switched on active sonar and got 95%.
I launched a torp and as it closed with the Romeo, it dropped a noise maker and the torp missed, continuing to look. I launched another one to keep the Romeo on it's toes and this one hit.
Whilst admiring my handy work and watching the Romeo sink to the bottom, I was spinning the camera around looking for my sub in the back ground and picked it up...with...something else. Is that a noisemaker? No - it's moving too fast. Switched view to my ship to see a torpedo slam into the side of it.
Now a couple of things...
- I'm 95% sure that was my torpedo - I presume that can happen
- Rather annoyingly, I didn't hear any pinging from the torp and I would imagine for that torp to find me and hit me, I would've heard it's sonar...is that not the case? If it is, then there's a sound bug hear
My second point - in ALL the training missions I played utilising torpedoes, I never came across them not employing active sonar - so I'm a wee bit annoyed a) I was hit by my own torp and b) the game decided it wasn't going to give me any clue I was being targeted and so couldn't drop a noise maker.
Is there anything you can do to prevent being picked up by your own torpedo (assuming it was my torpedo - I definitely didn't see the Romeo firing one).
Anyway - I'm going in for another go!
^this is a bug. It's called the JudgeDredd bug because of all the people, this annoying situation had to happen to you! :DD
Yes your own torps can hit you.
If you had speed on, you won't hear the torps pinging.
You might have taken sonar damage when you got hit by the first torp.
The romeo probably shot at you when you went active.
If you had the Romeo selected in 3d then you're not hearing your subs sounds, you're hearing what the Romeo hears.
Review posted at subsim and includes sneak peek of upcoming navigation controls.
http://www.subsim.com/ssr/cold_waters/review_cold_waters.php
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.subsim.com%2Fssr%2Fcold_waters%2Fzz_COLD_WATERS_UPDATE1.jpg&hash=e0f113920074314233a493874005c948dd6ea2f6)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.subsim.com%2Fssr%2Fcold_waters%2Fzz_COLD_WATERS_UPDATE2.jpg&hash=31c7995837169d4d772a1e21ea2285f58d8953b1)
Quote from: Toonces on June 10, 2017, 06:31:37 AM
Yes your own torps can hit you.
If you had speed on, you won't hear the torps pinging.
You might have taken sonar damage when you got hit by the first torp.
The romeo probably shot at you when you went active.
If you had the Romeo selected in 3d then you're not hearing your subs sounds, you're hearing what the Romeo hears.
You know I completely did not think about the view affecting what I hear. Completely makes sense and I feel daft for even mentioning it.
Thanks O0
http://steamcommunity.com/app/541210/discussions/0/1353742967812606761/
Beta 1.01 available
I can't hit anything moving with unguided torpedoes. Any adjustment they make in course or speed and that's it. What is the ideal launch range? Maybe I'm shooting too soon?
I'm playing the North Atlantic convoy hunting mission and I'm driving the most advanced sub available for the mission with 1967 era technology. Soviet torps seem to have guidance, mine do not. Am I missing something?
...new controls look fantastic!
Those screenshots make me so glad I stuck with this game. What a fantastic dev team.
Well, I managed to survive my first campaign.
It went pretty darned quickly. Eleven days, five missions that ended with a Warsaw Pact cease fire after I launched a Tomahawk strike on Archangel.
Anyone else having these quick little wars?
Soooooooooooo
As you can be detected very easily I decided to go and read up on detection and evasion.
Who would've thought submarines were so detectable. I had no idea. I genuinely thought you were invisible. I guess that was back in the day before detection technology caught up.
Anyway, read up on it and understood that detection doesn't mean they know where you are - only that there's something down there. When they launch, they are launching in the dark and the torpedo takes over.
Having read up, I jumped back in and from the strat map I ended up in amongst the hornest nest. I was being actively pinged from all directions. Turned out to be 3 destroyers, 3 replenishment ships and helicopters. Sonobuoys, dipping sonar and then torpedoes in the water doing their thing - spinning around searching.
I used the evasion tactics I had read about and it worked...I managed to evade what was being dropped and also the helicopters were looking in the wrong place...though I was still being pinged.
I went above the layer, let loose with 3 ASMs and took out a destroyer and 2 replenishment ships. That gave me away because the pinging started with earnest again. Another torpedo in the water and I was evading again. I managed to do so and fired a torpedo and another destroyer and took it out.
Unfortunately, I was too busy admiring my work again and forgot about the torpedo I evaded...which apparently was only temporary! :DD
Can someone tell me what the tube launched MOSS is?
Quote from: JudgeDredd on June 11, 2017, 03:14:57 AM
Can someone tell me what the tube launched MOSS is?
Mobile submarine simulator. It's a decoy.
Does anybody have any feedback on my question about unguided torpedoes?
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 11, 2017, 03:18:35 AM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on June 11, 2017, 03:14:57 AM
Can someone tell me what the tube launched MOSS is?
Mobile submarine simulator. It's a decoy.
Does anybody have any feedback on my question about unguided torpedoes?
I am still figuring out things myself and you might have already seen this, but from what I have read in places the recommendation is to launch multiple torpedoes at your target to cover the various courses it might take and the closer to your target the better. Also, not sure if you saw in the manual, they had a couple tactics which I pasted below.
When firing at a moving target, you have to aim a distance in front of it, so that your weapon hits the
target at the point he is going to be when the weapon gets there. This is known as leading the target.
Ever since the 1920's, analog then digital computers have been employed to help with the fire control
problem: Observations are made over time noting the target's course, speed and range. These are fed
into the fire control system, which also takes input about the sub's own movement. The fire control
system then calculates a continuously updated aim point where the target will be if you fired a torpedo
at that time. This is known as the target solution.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1117.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk592%2FGrimReaper42%2FCold%2520Waters%2FColdWaters1.png&hash=6129c020ae59ffbc15bcc2855d44a9b601361060)
The accuracy of the solution is dependent on several factors: Sudden movements by you or the target
may invalidate the solution causing your weapons to miss. Therefore unguided torpedoes can easily
be defeated by a manoeuvring target. This has been made into standard doctrine, and therefore all
surface groups will make periodic course changes, or zigs, to throw off any skipper trying to ambush
them.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1117.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk592%2FGrimReaper42%2FCold%2520Waters%2FColdWaters2.png&hash=ae590156de47979c24f4dac5eb884a07616a0f94)
One way to hedge against target zigs is firing multiple torpedoes in a salvo, or spread:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1117.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk592%2FGrimReaper42%2FCold%2520Waters%2FColdWaters3.png&hash=c35ddca4737fe5c2de98d99d76ce05fc97fe0fa2)
Cold Waters, an aim point appears on the tactical display when a target's solution reaches a good
enough solution. To aim the weapons, simply drag the waypoint over the aim point and fire. The
torpedoes will then run for a few hundred yards before turning to the gyro angle set by you.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 10, 2017, 12:18:03 PM
I can't hit anything moving with unguided torpedoes. Any adjustment they make in course or speed and that's it. What is the ideal launch range? Maybe I'm shooting too soon?
I'm playing the North Atlantic convoy hunting mission and I'm driving the most advanced sub available for the mission with 1967 era technology. Soviet torps seem to have guidance, mine do not. Am I missing something?
...new controls look fantastic!
I always read skippers saying that the optimal range for straight-running Torpedoes was 500 yds. <1000 yds, ideally. The least chance of their maneuvering throwing your shot off, while still being outside minimum torpedo range.
But you won't get anywhere near that, in 1968, due to the sonar being much better than WW2 stuff.
Beta patch 1.01b just came out.
You can opt into it under Steam's 'Properties' window for the game. No p/w.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on June 11, 2017, 03:53:14 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 11, 2017, 03:18:35 AM
Does anybody have any feedback on my question about unguided torpedoes?
I am still figuring out things myself and you might have already seen this, but from what I have read in places the recommendation is to launch multiple torpedoes at your target to cover the various courses it might take and the closer to your target the better.
Once you are detected the unguided torpedoes become useless (ships will start evading procedures).
I think they are only usefull when used against slow moving merchants at short range. Warships and subs will almost allways be able to avoid them even when you use a spread.
Quote from: SirAndrewD on June 10, 2017, 11:50:00 PM
Well, I managed to survive my first campaign.
It went pretty darned quickly. Eleven days, five missions that ended with a Warsaw Pact cease fire after I launched a Tomahawk strike on Archangel.
Anyone else having these quick little wars?
7 days, 3 missions. We sunk on the 3rd mission. ::)
Alright, I figured unguided torps are essentially worthless. The mission I'm playing has me in a Sturgeon and the pre mission briefing says I'm loaded with mk16s and mk37s. The 16s are unguided and useless. The 37s should have guidance. The only problem is I only seem able to load 16s and decoys into my tubes. Where the hell are the 37s?
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 11, 2017, 06:49:02 AM
Alright, I figured unguided torps are essentially worthless. The mission I'm playing has me in a Sturgeon and the pre mission briefing says I'm loaded with mk16s and mk37s. The 16s are unguided and useless. The 37s should have guidance. The only problem is I only seem able to load 16s and decoys into my tubes. Where the hell are the 37s?
Which mission? Is this one of the canned missions?
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 11, 2017, 06:49:02 AM
Alright, I figured unguided torps are essentially worthless. The mission I'm playing has me in a Sturgeon and the pre mission briefing says I'm loaded with mk16s and mk37s. The 16s are unguided and useless. The 37s should have guidance. The only problem is I only seem able to load 16s and decoys into my tubes. Where the hell are the 37s?
Probably doesn't help you, but just completed a mission where they were available to me....the 16s were the default, but I was able to reload the tubes with the 37s before the mission started. Maybe a specific bug with a specific mission.
Quote from: jomni on June 11, 2017, 07:01:58 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 11, 2017, 06:49:02 AM
Alright, I figured unguided torps are essentially worthless. The mission I'm playing has me in a Sturgeon and the pre mission briefing says I'm loaded with mk16s and mk37s. The 16s are unguided and useless. The 37s should have guidance. The only problem is I only seem able to load 16s and decoys into my tubes. Where the hell are the 37s?
Which mission? Is this one of the canned missions?
Yes. The North Atlantic convoy hunt.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 11, 2017, 07:15:26 AM
Quote from: jomni on June 11, 2017, 07:01:58 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 11, 2017, 06:49:02 AM
Alright, I figured unguided torps are essentially worthless. The mission I'm playing has me in a Sturgeon and the pre mission briefing says I'm loaded with mk16s and mk37s. The 16s are unguided and useless. The 37s should have guidance. The only problem is I only seem able to load 16s and decoys into my tubes. Where the hell are the 37s?
Which mission? Is this one of the canned missions?
Yes. The North Atlantic convoy hunt.
Using a Sturgeon and Skipjack class, I was able to see the 37s in the stores and was able to load them into the tubes prior to that mission. When you go into the XO report and then stores do you see them even graphically shown? I see them there and then I just select a tube and hit the R key until I see the graphic. Then good to go.
Have been staying away from this because it could be like stepping into a patch of quicksand. Once you;re in, there is no escape.
Out of curiousity, can you choose to be a soviet sub commander?
The SQS-35 VDS sonar (variable depth sonar) is not discussed anymore, but we had some great success with it. Totally took away the thermal layer by going under it, and was good active or passive. And the cable was certified for maneuvering up to 28 knots.
In October, or November, 1972, Manley was guided to a Charlie/Victor south of Crete by a P3.
The sub skipper tried a lot of things, but couldn't shake her. Kept it up for something like two hours when AFSouth in naples told us to reel it in because there was an Italian sub in the area.
Quote from: besilarius on June 11, 2017, 07:51:05 AM
Have been staying away from this because it could be like stepping into a patch of quicksand. Once you;re in, there is no escape.
Out of curiousity, can you choose to be a soviet sub commander?
...
Not yet. Future DLC.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 11, 2017, 06:49:02 AM
Alright, I figured unguided torps are essentially worthless. The mission I'm playing has me in a Sturgeon and the pre mission briefing says I'm loaded with mk16s and mk37s. The 16s are unguided and useless. The 37s should have guidance. The only problem is I only seem able to load 16s and decoys into my tubes. Where the hell are the 37s?
JH, you need to load them on yer sub before the mission starts. In port at start you can change your loadout.
Quote from: Barthheart on June 11, 2017, 08:25:09 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 11, 2017, 06:49:02 AM
Alright, I figured unguided torps are essentially worthless. The mission I'm playing has me in a Sturgeon and the pre mission briefing says I'm loaded with mk16s and mk37s. The 16s are unguided and useless. The 37s should have guidance. The only problem is I only seem able to load 16s and decoys into my tubes. Where the hell are the 37s?
JH, you need to load them on yer sub before the mission starts. In port at start you can change your loadout.
When I start the mission, both types are already on the sub and they can be loaded into the tubes before I leave port as well as during the mission. Although at port, I can change the quantity of each , which I do so I can have more guided.
One weird thing I am seeing though, probably just something stupid I am doing, but every time I fire a 37, it either blows up as being launched or shortly there after. Keep sinking myself:(
How to interpret ownsip and target signal strength numbers?
Well, I just saw a YouTube video yesterday where a guy blew up a whale with a Mark 48. So I know what I will be trying to do with the game for the next few days😈😈
Quote from: mikeck on June 11, 2017, 10:39:06 AM
Well, I just saw a YouTube video yesterday where a guy blew up a whale with a Mark 48. So I know what I will be trying to do with the game for the next few days😈😈
I did that the other day - to the total dismay of my daughter! I don't know if it was a 48 or not - but the whale got it!
Quote from: JudgeDredd on June 11, 2017, 10:43:11 AM
Quote from: mikeck on June 11, 2017, 10:39:06 AM
Well, I just saw a YouTube video yesterday where a guy blew up a whale with a Mark 48. So I know what I will be trying to do with the game for the next few days😈😈
I did that the other day - to the total dismay of my daughter! I don't know if it was a 48 or not - but the whale got it!
It was probably a Soviet spy whale. Got what it deserved.
Damn Red Whales.
Just a heads-up: Over at Subsim the Modders have already embraced CW. There are three scenarios posted, also a mod enabling you to play Russian Subs. In addition a Sandbox Mode.
Quote from: trek on June 11, 2017, 11:45:35 AM
Just a heads-up: Over at Subsim the Modders have already embraced CW. There are three scenarios posted, also a mod enabling you to play Russian Subs. In addition a Sandbox Mode.
Links?
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 11, 2017, 11:54:49 AM
Quote from: trek on June 11, 2017, 11:45:35 AM
Just a heads-up: Over at Subsim the Modders have already embraced CW. There are three scenarios posted, also a mod enabling you to play Russian Subs. In addition a Sandbox Mode.
Links?
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=cat&id=103
Must be registered to download any mods or missions.
There are mods and a few scenarios over on the Steam Modding forum too.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 11, 2017, 03:18:35 AM
Does anybody have any feedback on my question about unguided torpedoes?
Unguided torps aren't useless. Remember, the Belgrano was taken out in the Falkands by unguided torps!
I don't know the optimal range for them, but surely closer is better. The less running time and warning the target has, the harder it will be for it to avoid the torps. 1000 - 2000 yards is probably a good starting point.
The problem, as you've likely noticed, is that as soon as the enemy changes course or speed, your solution is worthless. So in my opinion, there's no value in using less than a full spread if you're going to shoot. Ideally you want to use them against the non-warships first. In my experience so far, the ASW ships will hear the torps coming and maneuver, and also tell all the other ships as well. So best bet is to use the unguided torps against the amphibs and save the guided torps for the escorts.
Finally, if the group is zig zagging, you need to take some time to observe the pattern, and try to hit then right after a course change. I haven't managed to stay alive long enough to see a full zigzag, but I have seen escorts sprint and drift.
Not sure that the sinking of the Belgrano is an apt reference. The Belgrano was a surplus WWII light cruiser (USS Phoenix) and I don't know what, if any, upgrades the Argentinians made to her sensor suite but, I suspect that she was sailing along fat, dumb and happy with no idea that the HMS Conqueror was in the area.
Quote from: Millipede on June 11, 2017, 04:04:01 PM
Not sure that the sinking of the Belgrano is an apt reference. The Belgrano was a surplus WWII light cruiser (USS Phoenix) and I don't know what, if any, upgrades the Argentinians made to her sensor suite but, I suspect that she was sailing along fat, dumb and happy with no idea that the HMS Conqueror was in the area.
It didn't have much, if any, modern upgrades from what I recall.
Quote from: jomni on June 11, 2017, 08:42:41 AM
How to interpret ownsip and target signal strength numbers?
Negative number means you won't likely be detected, in the current relative conditions. But this also depends on how good your solution & ID to the target is.
Supposedly somewhere at +9 or +10 is good enough for first acquiring a contact. It may be lower in CW, I don't know. Still speculative.
After first detection, you can hold the contact if at +1 or higher. Regaining them after briefly losing them is the same, or a bit higher perhaps.
When I see their estimated sensor value go into the positive, I tend to assume they're very near detecting me. Or they've just re-detected me, if that has happened before.
Keep in mind that even if the enemy unit currently has a 0 or negative rating on you, with one of their sensors, that situation can quickly change. Such as your launch transient when you fire a weapon. That will make your noise spike. If the AI gets a brief detection of it, but you drop back off the scope after firing no more, they will quickly switch to Active Sonar to try picking you back up.
It has other factors, such as their active sonar possibly being more effective if you're showing the side of your boat towards them, compared to bow or stern-on, due to the larger surface creating larger echos from the pings. Or being on the same side of the layer. Comparable depths being close. Speeds. If you're cavitating, even for a brief moment. Etc.
My point on the Belgrano is that it is the only modern, post-WW2 submarine warshot against a surface target of which I'm aware. And it was made with unguided torps, even though Conqueror had guided torps.
So, they're not "worthless." But, I agree that Belgrano was no match for Conqueror.
I've been using the Mk-37s and they're awfully slow, but appear to be tenacious little bastards.
The guided Tigerfish torps weren't used to attack Belgrano because of reliability concerns.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigerfish_(torpedo)
Quote from: Millipede on June 11, 2017, 04:04:01 PM
Not sure that the sinking of the Belgrano is an apt reference. The Belgrano was a surplus WWII light cruiser (USS Phoenix) and I don't know what, if any, upgrades the Argentinians made to her sensor suite but, I suspect that she was sailing along fat, dumb and happy with no idea that the HMS Conqueror was in the area.
Not to mention the Captain chose not to zig zag. He couldn't have made it easier. But then again, it's a highly trained British submarine crew. For us, it's hard. I had a helluva time in SH3,4 hitting anything that wasn't moving straight at a 90 degree angle about 1000 yds away
@Mirth: I had thought the Sub Commander had chosen the WW2 era non-guided torps because they had enormous warheads and the Belgrano had a thick steel armor layer. Modern guided torps being designed to break the keel of lighter ships. Saw it on a documentary on the Falklands war so no citation
The Mark VIIIs definitely had a larger warhead, but the early Tigerfish were extremely unrealiable
QuoteEarly models suffered from poor reliability: only 40% of the Mod 0 ASW model performed as designed. The torpedo depended in large part on the remote-control system, but the weapon tended to dip during launch, severing the control wire. The Mod 0 failed its initial fleet acceptance trials in 1979 but was nevertheless issued to the fleet in 1980. The Mod 1 DP (dual purpose) anti-submarine and anti-ship model also experienced problems, though a redesigned version (Mod 2) passed sea trials in 1978 and was issued the following year. When HMS Conqueror sank the ARA General Belgrano during the 1982 Falklands war she used the "point and shoot" 21" Mark VIII torpedoes rather than her Tigerfish. The Mark VIII had no homing system but, despite the design being over 50 years old at the time, was far more reliable and carried a greater high-explosive payload. In a test carried out by submarines returning to the UK after the war two of five Mod 1 Tigerfish fired at a target hulk failed to function at all and the remaining three failed to hit the target.
Quote from: mikeck on June 11, 2017, 07:36:16 PM
Quote from: Millipede on June 11, 2017, 04:04:01 PM
Not sure that the sinking of the Belgrano is an apt reference. The Belgrano was a surplus WWII light cruiser (USS Phoenix) and I don't know what, if any, upgrades the Argentinians made to her sensor suite but, I suspect that she was sailing along fat, dumb and happy with no idea that the HMS Conqueror was in the area.
Not to mention the Captain chose not to zig zag. He couldn't have made it easier. But then again, it's a highly trained British submarine crew. For us, it's hard. I had a helluva time in SH3,4 hitting anything that wasn't moving straight at a 90 degree angle about 1000 yds away
@Mirth: I had thought the Sub Commander had chosen the WW2 era non-guided torps because they had enormous warheads and the Belgrano had a thick steel armor layer. Modern guided torps being designed to break the keel of lighter ships. Saw it on a documentary on the Falklands war so no citation
If I recall the Belgrano was outside of the U.K. Designated and communicated exclusion zone and making full steam for port. The brits decided to knife her based on a tactical decision that they had the shot and didn't know if they would get another chance.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_General_Belgrano
Quote from: Toonces on June 11, 2017, 07:00:10 PM
My point on the Belgrano is that it is the only modern, post-WW2 submarine warshot against a surface target of which I'm aware.
There's also the Cheonan. Though the torpedo seems to be a stealthy wake homing torpedo.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROKS_Cheonan_sinking
Quote from: Con on June 11, 2017, 07:52:02 PM
Quote from: mikeck on June 11, 2017, 07:36:16 PM
Quote from: Millipede on June 11, 2017, 04:04:01 PM
Not sure that the sinking of the Belgrano is an apt reference. The Belgrano was a surplus WWII light cruiser (USS Phoenix) and I don't know what, if any, upgrades the Argentinians made to her sensor suite but, I suspect that she was sailing along fat, dumb and happy with no idea that the HMS Conqueror was in the area.
Not to mention the Captain chose not to zig zag. He couldn't have made it easier. But then again, it's a highly trained British submarine crew. For us, it's hard. I had a helluva time in SH3,4 hitting anything that wasn't moving straight at a 90 degree angle about 1000 yds away
@Mirth: I had thought the Sub Commander had chosen the WW2 era non-guided torps because they had enormous warheads and the Belgrano had a thick steel armor layer. Modern guided torps being designed to break the keel of lighter ships. Saw it on a documentary on the Falklands war so no citation
If I recall the Belgrano was outside of the U.K. Designated and communicated exclusion zone and making full steam for port. The brits decided to knife her based on a tactical decision that they had the shot and didn't know if they would get another chance.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_General_Belgrano
It had always absolutely stunned me that people claim the sinking was controversial and a "war-crime". The critics site to the fact that the cruiser was outside of the British "exclusion zone" and steaming away. My question is...so what? It CANT be a war crime because it was a warship manned my military personnel. That in and of itself makes it legit. Of Russia shoots down a US B-52 for no reason, it's not a "war crime". It may lead to diplomatic issues and scorn but it's not a war crime.
But here, there was a declaration of hostilities between Britain and Argentina. The U.K. Made it clear what it was doing. The exclusion zone was simply an area designated so neutral shipping could avoid any issues. It wasn't a declaration that they won't attack anything out of it. Britain would have been justified in attacking naval bases in Argentina proper...so what's wrong with a warship in international waters? It was a warship, a potential threat to the BritIsh Navy and no nation is under any obligation to "warn" another before it attacks a military target.
I think that claim of a war-crime (or even suggesting it was improper) is ridiculous. The Brits had an amphibious task force on the way to invade an island...they could have (and if they were able to, would have) destroyed the entire Argentine navy.
People mistakenly look at military decisions through the lens of necessity: "did you HAVE TO DO IT?". They should view it only through the lens of "was it a military target"
https://www.google.com/amp/s/defenceoftherealm.wordpress.com/2014/11/01/sinking-the-belgrano-justified-attack-or-war-crime/amp/
QuoteThrough a message passed via the Swiss Embassy in Buenos Aires to the Argentine government on 23 April, the UK made clear that it no longer considered the 200-mile (370 km) exclusion zone as the limit of its military action. The message read:
In announcing the establishment of a Maritime Exclusion Zone around the Falkland Islands, Her Majesty's Government made it clear that this measure was without prejudice to the right of the United Kingdom to take whatever additional measures may be needed in the exercise of its right of self-defence under Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. In this connection Her Majesty's Government now wishes to make clear that any approach on the part of Argentine warships, including submarines, naval auxiliaries or military aircraft, which could amount to a threat to interfere with the mission of British Forces in the South Atlantic will encounter the appropriate response. All Argentine aircraft, including civil aircraft engaged in surveillance of these British forces, will be regarded as hostile and are liable to be dealt with accordingly.
It's not clear to me why the Royal Navy leadership needed to seek permission to engage the Belgrano outside of the exclusion zone. From what I've read, the exclusion zone was an area around the islands in which British naval forces were in essence clear to fire on anything. In other words, if you entered into the zone, it was at your own risk. There is no indication that I have seen establishing that there was any policy or RoE providing that British forces could not engage enemy assets outside of the zone. The whole purpose of the exclusion zone was to assist British forces by reducing the amount of time necessary to identify legal targets.
^ This exactly. The problem is the public not understanding what an exclusion zone is....the perception that if a warship is out of the exclusion zone it is somehow exempt from being engaged. That's not the case at all.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 11, 2017, 08:37:49 PM
It's not clear to me why the Royal Navy leadership needed to seek permission to engage the Belgrano outside of the exclusion zone. From what I've read, the exclusion zone was an area around the islands in which British naval forces were in essence clear to fire on anything. In other words, if you entered into the zone, it was at your own risk. There is no indication that I have seen establishing that there was any policy or RoE providing that British forces could not engage enemy assets outside of the zone. The whole purpose of the exclusion zone was to assist British forces by reducing the amount of time necessary to identify legal targets.
There wasn't a command, order or rule of engagement. I Think the sub commander just wanted to make sure he was authorized to attack a target outside of the zone. But ROE or no, attacking a light cruiser belonging to a nation with which you are engaging in armed conflict is not only "legal" but probably a great idea. Had it been the US navy with its carriers, every Argentinian naval port or base would have been attacked and every naval ship they could find, sunk. The Argentine navy was lucky the Brits did not have such capability.
To me, it's just sour grapes. A lot of nations were rooting for Argentina to give an old European Colonial power (perceived to be illegally holding onto a colonial possession) a good comeuppance. It was embarrassing for the Argentinians as it should have been.
Downsized or not, the British Navy is a big-boy navy. If your going to play with the big boys, you better be ready to fight. As with the Iraqi's in 1991, the Argentinians simply did not understand the qualitative difference in forces....but learned.
This brings us FULL CIRCLE back to the point; hitting ships with unguided torps is hard unless the other guy is clueless..AI or no
Jesus I'm wordy
Quote from: mikeck on June 11, 2017, 08:26:04 PM
Quote from: Con on June 11, 2017, 07:52:02 PM
Quote from: mikeck on June 11, 2017, 07:36:16 PM
Quote from: Millipede on June 11, 2017, 04:04:01 PM
Not sure that the sinking of the Belgrano is an apt reference. The Belgrano was a surplus WWII light cruiser (USS Phoenix) and I don't know what, if any, upgrades the Argentinians made to her sensor suite but, I suspect that she was sailing along fat, dumb and happy with no idea that the HMS Conqueror was in the area.
Not to mention the Captain chose not to zig zag. He couldn't have made it easier. But then again, it's a highly trained British submarine crew. For us, it's hard. I had a helluva time in SH3,4 hitting anything that wasn't moving straight at a 90 degree angle about 1000 yds away
@Mirth: I had thought the Sub Commander had chosen the WW2 era non-guided torps because they had enormous warheads and the Belgrano had a thick steel armor layer. Modern guided torps being designed to break the keel of lighter ships. Saw it on a documentary on the Falklands war so no citation
If I recall the Belgrano was outside of the U.K. Designated and communicated exclusion zone and making full steam for port. The brits decided to knife her based on a tactical decision that they had the shot and didn't know if they would get another chance.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_General_Belgrano
It had always absolutely stunned me that people claim the sinking was controversial and a "war-crime". The critics site to the fact that the cruiser was outside of the British "exclusion zone" and steaming away. My question is...so what? It CANT be a war crime because it was a warship manned my military personnel. That in and of itself makes it legit. Of Russia shoots down a US B-52 for no reason, it's not a "war crime". It may lead to diplomatic issues and scorn but it's not a war crime.
But here, there was a declaration of hostilities between Britain and Argentina. The U.K. Made it clear what it was doing. The exclusion zone was simply an area designated so neutral shipping could avoid any issues. It wasn't a declaration that they won't attack anything out of it. Britain would have been justified in attacking naval bases in Argentina proper...so what's wrong with a warship in international waters? It was a warship, a potential threat to the BritIsh Navy and no nation is under any obligation to "warn" another before it attacks a military target.
I think that claim of a war-crime (or even suggesting it was improper) is ridiculous. The Brits had an amphibious task force on the way to invade an island...they could have (and if they were able to, would have) destroyed the entire Argentine navy.
People mistakenly look at military decisions through the lens of necessity: "did you HAVE TO DO IT?". They should view it only through the lens of "was it a military target"
https://www.google.com/amp/s/defenceoftherealm.wordpress.com/2014/11/01/sinking-the-belgrano-justified-attack-or-war-crime/amp/
I hope your remarks weren't directed at me...I didnt call it a war crime or say it required justification. I agree with the decision from a tactical viewpoint but it is also true that the Brits altered their rules of engagement in order to take advantage of the situation.
If you didnt direct that towards me I might just be getting that perception from being tired and crabby from driving all day
Con
Lol....no. They aren't directed at you at all. I just happened to be reading the article and saw your post. I had assumed you were just stating a fact: it's controversial...which it is. Shouldn't be, but is.
My post was a response to the article I linked at the bottom
-"there...now we can be friend again"
Doc Holliday
Quote from: mikeck on June 11, 2017, 09:20:47 PM
Jesus I'm wordy
Congratulations!
JP, and I, welcome you to the club. :bd:
Wear your gift for long breezy winds as a badge of honor, sir. :))
I just "completed" a decent campaign where everything was going splendidly right up until the moment the Soviets got lucky and killed me. At least I think they got lucky. I am into my 1984 campaign by maybe two weeks, having smashed a couple of ASW task groups and several subs. I am thinking I am getting my mind around how to play this game well when I approach an invasion force heading to Iceland. I am in decent position and pretty deep when I launch a salvo of torpedoes at the group. I briefly turned away at 20 kts and went deeper, then slow downed and went ultra quiet. Very soon after that an aircraft drops a torpedo in the water right above me and it homes in on me immediately.
At this point I am not overly worried (perhaps my mistake) about one torpedo. I can maneuver, drop noise makers, and create knuckles at will. Of course, once you think you have it all figured out, thats when a torpedo isn't fooled by anything and just nails you. A brilliant campaign ended in about 30 seconds.
I am going to make a couple of critical observations about the Soviet AI, knowing that it's hard for me to know what the are really doing up there. On two occasions, I ran into a well designed ASW combat force. They had cruisers and destroyers with decent weaponry, helicopters, and even a sub underneath them. All of that and land based air support too. It was absurdly easier, considering the distances engagements start (I set mine to max every time, 25k yards), to launch of salvo of these super torpedoes, turn away, and wreak total havoc. After that first salvo, its just mopping up.
I wanted to the AI dropping sonar buoys along the obvious axis the torpedoes came from, at various distances. What I got was sporadic at best. Many times, they would drop buoys on the opposite side of the map from where the ships were hit. For the most part, the only forces to actually fire on me with a realistic chance to hit were over more modern soviet subs, like the Alfa. These ASW takes forces need to more effectively use their resources, at least from my perspective.
Just quickly on the Belgrano. I only ever recall the Government being on the defensive, giving out statements about "she was a threat to the task force" etc. I don't recall the government ever actually saying "She was an enemy ship - end of story".
The calls for War Crimes was ludicrous. The fact that the public seemed to not understand what an Exclusion Zone is (anything entering can be engaged) and sinking enemy ships wherever they may be is forgivable. The fact the Argentine Government tried to call foul play is ludicrous. They were at war with the UK. As if the UK was going to allow the Veinticinco de Mayo task force and the Belgrano task force simply run about on the rim of the Exclusion Zone is farcical. Shit - if they were in port they would be valid targets!
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 11, 2017, 03:18:35 AM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on June 11, 2017, 03:14:57 AM
Can someone tell me what the tube launched MOSS is?
Mobile submarine simulator. It's a decoy.
Does anybody have any feedback on my question about unguided torpedoes?
Just spotted this - thanks O0
I need to stop wandering around looking at my handy work and missiles and torps flying around...because I am dying a lot and it's mostly because I'm doing that.
3rd mission into my campaign and I launch my Tomahawks at a naval base (Murmansk I think). No contacts reported so I'm watching them flying around...blah, blah, blah..."What's that yellow icon up there mean?"....look in the manual...."Shite - it's a flooding icon" #:-)
Back to ship being pinged by 3 torpedoes (already hit by one) launched by a helicopter. Go flank, drop a noisemaker, rudder hard left to get out of Chinatown, set planes to rise to go above 300ft to start pumping water, drop another noisemaker and......too late...torpedo gets me :clap:
So - 3rd person is nice to watch things kicking off - but it's deadly. :DD
How do I return to port? Is it only at Holy Loch?
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 11, 2017, 07:15:26 AM
Quote from: jomni on June 11, 2017, 07:01:58 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 11, 2017, 06:49:02 AM
Alright, I figured unguided torps are essentially worthless. The mission I'm playing has me in a Sturgeon and the pre mission briefing says I'm loaded with mk16s and mk37s. The 16s are unguided and useless. The 37s should have guidance. The only problem is I only seem able to load 16s and decoys into my tubes. Where the hell are the 37s?
Which mission? Is this one of the canned missions?
Yes. The North Atlantic convoy hunt.
I'm able to load the 37s by pressing R.
Yep, Holy Loche is the only port for rearm and repairs.
I thought Holy Loch was the SSBN base?
Do you guys have any links to cold war era submarine tactics military manuals/publications?
oh - I meant to say - I'm not too fussed about a save option - I don't last long enough! :2funny:
I haven't played this yet but I'm damned excited that you guys stuck with this game. It was touch and go the first day of release as to whether it was going to suck.
It's my opinion it does not. Quite tense. It's lite, but pretty enjoyable.
It seems there's a pretty universal agreement, including among the devs, that Russian ASW air is way overpowered. Because of this, and because I'm having a lot of fun with some other games, I bought this but decided not to play for a while.
But I did experiment a little. Made my way through the tutorials, and tried a couple of campaign missions. The first time, in a Sturgeon, I was roughly handled by the escorts: no complaint, I had it coming.
But the 2nd time, in an LA in the '84 campaign, I smoked 3 vessels with torps, the other vessel escaped, and then after running about 15 minutes on silent at 700 feet, having completely cleared the area I fired from, and having never gotten any clue that I was under surveillance, I was suddenly rudely accosted by an air-dropped torpedo, with no warning. This did not seem kosher to me.
Until that happened, the game was sure fun, and in the old RSR way I was looking forward to. But in RSR, when I got sunk, I always understood why. This leads me to believe that the patch to nerf ASW air is going to improve this game greatly. Anybody have any clue at all about when we might expect something like that?
The 1st patch was released today. Haven't tried it yet.
Quote from: glen55 on June 12, 2017, 05:22:36 PM
It seems there's a pretty universal agreement, including among the devs, that Russian ASW air is way overpowered. Because of this, and because I'm having a lot of fun with some other games, I bought this but decided not to play for a while.
But I did experiment a little. Made my way through the tutorials, and tried a couple of campaign missions. The first time, in a Sturgeon, I was roughly handled by the escorts: no complaint, I had it coming.
But the 2nd time, in an LA in the '84 campaign, I smoked 3 vessels with torps, the other vessel escaped, and then after running about 15 minutes on silent at 700 feet, having completely cleared the area I fired from, and having never gotten any clue that I was under surveillance, I was suddenly rudely accosted by an air-dropped torpedo, with no warning. This did not seem kosher to me.
Until that happened, the game was sure fun, and in the old RSR way I was looking forward to. But in RSR, when I got sunk, I always understood why. This leads me to believe that the patch to nerf ASW air is going to improve this game greatly. Anybody have any clue at all about when we might expect something like that?
Did the patch address this? In my case I have yet to encounter ASW aircraft. Maybe because I stick to the NATO side of the map.
That said, any tricks in attacking amphibious forces? I always die due to the rocket deployed torpedoes. Also noticed that you can 'stalk' the enemy TF at the strategic map like not intercepting them and shadow them at slower speed. The longer you keep them detected in strategic map, the more ships are immediately identified when engaged.
Patch notes:
http://store.steampowered.com/news/?appids=541210
MADDetectionRangeInYards=1000 added to config.txt
being a txt file means it's mod-able, if you so desire.
Quote from: jomni on June 12, 2017, 08:09:23 AM
How do I return to port? Is it only at Holy Loch?
Yes.
Press Middle Mouse Button when you're near it (will show an icon iirc).
Quote from: Millipede on June 12, 2017, 06:01:55 PM
The 1st patch was released today. Haven't tried it yet.
Did 1.01b move out of optional Beta patch status?
Quote from: Nefaro on June 12, 2017, 09:26:51 PM
Quote from: Millipede on June 12, 2017, 06:01:55 PM
The 1st patch was released today. Haven't tried it yet.
Did 1.01b move out of optional Beta patch status?
http://steamcommunity.com/games/541210/announcements/detail/1319965970605444381
Quote from: Nefaro on June 12, 2017, 09:26:51 PM
Quote from: Millipede on June 12, 2017, 06:01:55 PM
The 1st patch was released today. Haven't tried it yet.
Did 1.01b move out of optional Beta patch status?
Yes
In case people are waiting to buy :
Question : Do we know what the price of this game will be during the steam summer sale?
Answer Killerfish Games : We don't plan to put Cold Waters on sale any time soon (if ever). Instead the plan is to keep making additions and improvements to the game.
http://steamcommunity.com/app/541210/discussions/0/1353742967822092485/
Quote from: Pete Dero on June 13, 2017, 06:53:24 AM
In case people are waiting to buy :
Question : Do we know what the price of this game will be during the steam summer sale?
Answer Killerfish Games : We don't plan to put Cold Waters on sale any time soon (if ever). Instead the plan is to keep making additions and improvements to the game.
http://steamcommunity.com/app/541210/discussions/0/1353742967822092485/
Ha! That's what they think. Emperor PalpaSteam
will alter their deal further. >:D
(https://i.imgflip.com/1qt0dc.jpg)
^ Exactly! ;D
This guy plays really well. Can learn a lot from him.
He eliminated a whole Amphibious task force and dodged a whole lot of torpedoes.
Part 1: https://youtu.be/dsObX4eqLyE
Part 2: https://youtu.be/9EPgR_JXfW4
I would like them to give you the ability to skip the campaign briefing. The amount of times I've restarted the campaign, it's boring going through the motions :)
Great tutorial on how to be stealthy.
https://youtu.be/clhxFImfH9I
Quote from: jomni on June 15, 2017, 08:45:39 AM
Great tutorial on how to be stealthy.
https://youtu.be/clhxFImfH9I
A few other tutorials
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF9K78gj2FP0V9fL1p54BXuVRwWq-IA6J
When are the new controls showcased on subsim supposed to be implemented?
I am still a little confused. Actually more than a little. He really didn't clarify very much. So the detection values range from +50 to -50. So, an active sonar at -8 is more effective than a passive sonar +10? :pullhair:
It didn't really help me much either - though it was interesting.
There's not really an awful lot of point to those figures (from a gaming perspective) when there's no reference table to help us know the detection rates per platform. For example I think he mentioned a Udaloy could detect you at -25 to -15 or something. But there's no reference for me (as a gamer) to say what the detection rate of a Udaloy is. So had he not told me, I'd be looking at a minus figure being me all invisible and shit when in actuality, a Udaloy knows pretty much exactly where I am.
So I'd like to see those figures go from say blue (not a very good detection rate for the platform) to red (a very goo detection rate).
Quote from: Swatter on June 15, 2017, 11:37:08 PM
I am still a little confused. Actually more than a little. He really didn't clarify very much. So the detection values range from +50 to -50. So, an active sonar at -8 is more effective than a passive sonar +10? :pullhair:
Isn't the 10 spotting you already?
Just keep the contact signal less than 10 as much as you can.
The numbers already take the platform's capabilities into consideration... If the other you tuber (the one I posted) is correct.
Quote from: jomni on June 16, 2017, 12:39:41 AM
Quote from: Swatter on June 15, 2017, 11:37:08 PM
I am still a little confused. Actually more than a little. He really didn't clarify very much. So the detection values range from +50 to -50. So, an active sonar at -8 is more effective than a passive sonar +10? :pullhair:
Isn't the 10 spotting you already?
Just keep the contact signal less than 10 as much as you can.
The numbers already take the platform's capabilities into consideration... If the other you tuber (the one I posted) is correct.
Yeah but according to his video, a Udaloy will pretty much be sending a torpedo down your spout with those figures in minus.
It was interesting, but not overly informative. Slightly - but not overly. The game is missing a mechanic there (or at least a reference) to allow you to properly take that information and use it.
I had a doosey last night.
Single mission. 112dB on the surface. No layer. Couldn't hear squat. Spent about half an hour in game occasionally getting a contact. I should've fired a torp down the bearing, but I didn't. Ended up quitting being told I failed to make contact with half a dozen ships...but I couldn't think of anything else to do.
Later, I went into a fight with 3 diesel subs. Fired two torps at one. One hit the other went looking about and picked me up. I then spent about 15-20 minutes dropping noisemakers, creating knuckles (which really works!), diving, rising etc, etc just to evade MY torpedo! Those things definitely need an IFF sensor!
It didn't help that I had been picked up by air also and that had dropped a couple of torps in the water.
I was busy avoiding for quite some time. But the evasion I had read up on did me proud and I survived with 3 kills.
Quote from: Swatter on June 15, 2017, 11:37:08 PM
I am still a little confused. Actually more than a little. He really didn't clarify very much. So the detection values range from +50 to -50. So, an active sonar at -8 is more effective than a passive sonar +10? :pullhair:
This guy gave a detailed explanation on the steam forums : http://steamcommunity.com/app/541210/discussions/0/1290691937730770068/?ctp=2
Jomni already posted some of his vids and he seems to be knowing what he is doing.
First Own ship numbers: Those describe the strenght of the signature you're receiving. Negative numbers are calculated outputs. Essentially anything negative means you're receiving nothing through that channel. For instance is perfectly viable that being over the layer (and dragging the towed array under it) you receive nothing in your MF sonar (the one at your bow), yet you can hear a faint signature with your towed array (which is under the layer).
The utility of this numbers is obvious. The stronger the signal, the better your TMA over time will be. It also gives some tactical hints about the enemy before the TMA is done. If you know he's not very close, but the signal is very strong, that means the platform is being VERY noisy (which usually means it's steaming at full speed). COnversely if you know the enemy is relatively slow moving a very strong signal means it's REALLY close, and you might want to react accordingly.
Now, about the numbers for enemy platforms:
First, how are those numbers are calculated: all platforms in game have sensors. Each sensor has a specific capability. Some are more sensitive than others. All platforms in game make noise. Said noise depends on how fast they're moving and on the inherent properties of the platform, as some are more silent than others.
The numbers you see are the calculated result of your own submarine loudness at the speed is travelling vs the capabilities of the sensors aboard the enemy ship, appropiately modified by things as background noise, if you're in the opposite side of the thermal layer, the strenght of said thermal layer, general sea conditions,etc.
Keep in mind you NEED a correct ID for this to be accurate. If you class an enemy Sierra as a Whiskey and you trust you've not been detected based on the numbers you see there, chances are you're in for a nasty suprise.
Also those values apply in the zones the sensors actually cover. This is easy to check if you're behind an enemy submarine (that lacks a towed array). If you're in a 60 degree arc behind him, all his numbers will be -50 db. Which means you can go flank speed and cavitate like a maniac, and the enemy will still not hear you.
Be conscious however that you also have non-detection baffles in your own sensors. the same 60 degrees behind for the active and hull sonar, and directly forward for your towed array (as your own submarine noise will mask whatever is beyond).
Now, how do those numbers apply vs the simulation?.
-anything negative means that the sensor in question will NOT detect you, period.
-anything under two digits (0 to 10) means that the sensor in question will NOT detect you but will keep you detected if the enemy has already a fix on you.
-anything over 10 means that sensor has detected you. To completely vanish off the enemy picture you need to get all the enemy sensor values under 0 at the same time, or they'll keep you detected.
so when you're doing an approach to an enemy sub, for instance, and you see the numbers for his hull and towed array as -5 and -3 respectively, you know you can increase speed a bit and you won't be detected, for the enemy still doesn't know you're there, and the values are under 10. Then you can decrease speed as you come closer and you're closer to be detected.
couple more things:
Silent running (shift-S) is EXCEEDINGLY useful to creep and remain undetected by passive sensors. And is a noticeable decrease in detectability from 1/3 forward.
Being totally stopped in the water doesn't mean you're not getting detected. Nuclear subs of this time used, without exception (well one would be the Ohio SSBN) coolant pumps to keep the reactor going. And you can't shut down your reactor (it'd be the most stupid thing to do in any nuclear powered vessel anyway). So you're making some noise even when stopped.
Now, the active sonar. This one is particular because there's a heavy modifier to that number, because that number is the expected signal strenght the enemy sonar will get off your sub if you're full broadside on towards him. If you're end-on (bow or rear towards the enemy), that number gets divided by a modifier (not sure how much, talking to the devs they told me is a factor of 25% when fully dead on towards of from the enemy).
So for instance, the enemy has an active signal strenght of 10. You're broadside on. He will detect you if he pings.
The enemy has an active signal strenght of 20. You're totally bow on towards him, so he actually gets 25% of that. Which is 5. 5 < 10, so the enemy won't detect you if he pings.
Same obviously applies to your own active sonar vs enemy vessels, so keep that in mind if you want to open up with your active sonar.
So, as is obvious to see, those numbers are EXCEEDINGLY important because they control if the enemy detects you or not, and how close (or far) you're from shaking off being detected.
In fact I'd say those numbers are the most important single thing in the whole simulation.
A great source of information (made for Dangerous Waters but also relevant for this game) : Landlubbers Survival Guide for Dangerous Waters
www.subguru.com/DW_missions/Notfallmappe_v06.zip
Quote from: Pete Dero on June 16, 2017, 04:18:49 AM
...
Now, how do those numbers apply vs the simulation?.
-anything negative means that the sensor in question will NOT detect you, period.
Maybe it depends on yoru definition of "detected", but that's not what he said when he was talking about the Udaloy. He said it would have you "dead to rights" around -25!
"...The Udaloy detects you at somewhere between -24 and -18"
Though I he is talking about medium frequency active there.
I should take this opportunity to say I thank him for doing the videos. I watched one previously (where he was stalking some ships" and enjoyed it). They're definitely worth a watch.
I'd like the game to give you feedback commanders actually have i.e. the detection info on the Udaloy as well as others...if they (sub commanders) know that, then the game should probably give you that knowledge
Quote from: JudgeDredd on June 16, 2017, 04:37:19 AM
Quote from: Pete Dero on June 16, 2017, 04:18:49 AM
...
Now, how do those numbers apply vs the simulation?.
-anything negative means that the sensor in question will NOT detect you, period.
Maybe it depends on yoru definition of "detected", but that's not what he said when he was talking about the Udaloy. He said it would have you "dead to rights" around -25!
To be clear : the Signature Analysis video is not from the same person as the Steam posting. ( It seems that this video might not be 100% correct. )
These are the videos that Jomni posted before from the Steam poster.
Quote from: jomni on June 13, 2017, 09:45:07 AM
This guy plays really well. Can learn a lot from him.
He eliminated a whole Amphibious task force and dodged a whole lot of torpedoes.
Part 1: https://youtu.be/dsObX4eqLyE
Part 2: https://youtu.be/9EPgR_JXfW4
Quote from: jomni on June 15, 2017, 08:45:39 AM
Great tutorial on how to be stealthy.
https://youtu.be/clhxFImfH9I
Yes I trust Ramjb more than Jive Turkey.
ok. I will watch more - thanks :notworthy:
Quote from: Swatter on June 15, 2017, 11:37:08 PM
I am still a little confused. Actually more than a little. He really didn't clarify very much. So the detection values range from +50 to -50. So, an active sonar at -8 is more effective than a passive sonar +10? :pullhair:
No.
That vid was going on incorrect information.
People in the comments section cleared it up a bit. Or at least they described the numbers more closely to how it's modeled in the game.
Basically.. if it goes positive, then you're cooked. If it's in the -9 to 0 range, small & sudden changes in your noise level
can get you detected. Especially launching something, which supposedly adds +5 SNR to whatever your current noise level estimate is to the selected sonar contact. But I think it may add as much as +10 or more; it probably depends on your range to the enemy in question.
Quote from: jomni on June 16, 2017, 07:50:44 AM
Yes I trust Ramjb more than Jive Turkey.
Ram (pron. Rahm) is pretty experienced with sub sims, from what I've gathered in the past. He knew some deeper details many don't.
Pretty sure he also played some SBPro MP with us, back during my short run. Nice guy.
BUG ALERT!
Sunk a ship (sunk a few actually!) and one of them, the Kirov, has capsized. So I reload with 2 UGMs and launch them to take out the last ship - a Kanin - and as the break the surface and drop their booster rockets, the Kirov lets off a shite load of chaff AND starts firing that CIWS bugger at the missiles.
Needless to say, none of the missiles managed to pass the Kirov
Playing Cold Water whilst watching The Hunt for Red October O0
Damn, those Russkie ships are TOUGH! :2funny:
Quote from: JudgeDredd on June 17, 2017, 08:04:21 AM
Playing Cold Water whilst watching The Hunt for Red October O0
Haven't picked this up yet, but I know that when I do, I'm going to have Sean Connery's voice in my head whenever I use the active sonar -- "Give me a ping, Vassily. One ping only, please." 8)
Found my first 'Death Star' today..
(https://s1.postimg.org/qk9gj5tn3/Kirov1.jpg)
There was a major storm on the surface. Bottom was a bit shallow at ~511 feet. Sonar was washed to hell; ambient noise was 113db. :o Couldn't detect any sound except active pings at their range.
Had to go with ye olde Mk1 through the scope. Broke my Kirov-killin' cherry. Got a Silver Star for all the tonnage in that encounter (also got it's Oiler replen and a Grisha that tried charging me afterward).
My own marked ranges, throught the scope, were correct. However, the AI "crew" kept resetting it to an incorrect bearing for some reason. #:-) No matter - only need a couple glimpses.
Moved the difficulty up to "Normal" (one notch) and made sure Ironman mode was enabled before starting campaigns today.
First two I got murderized in my first encounters. Gotta remember to haul ass, and clear datum, when the vultures are overhead and obviously aware of my launch. :arr:
Pretty atmospheric screenpic, Nef. Nice.
Damn Nefaro, that's pretty. Almost too pretty to shoot holes into. :dreamer:
Russian sub stuck in the ice. Actually hard to sink him as my torpedo kept hitting the ice.. He got hit by his own torpedo.
(https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/843711341831478052/4F4736EBEFCA3A28C2E6C88D1D64188DCB0F82DB/)
Version 1.03 Beta Available
New : full in-game unit reference linked to Signature tab
Beta 1.03 crashes the game if you don't remove your override directory : Several changes to the default folder file structure were made which will impact mods and localisations which have edited these files.
Hopefully the mod authors will see this list of changed files and be able to update their mods to be compatible again.
Quote from: Tinkershuffle on June 12, 2017, 12:51:09 PM
Do you guys have any links to cold war era submarine tactics military manuals/publications?
Seawolves 'Blue Book' of of Submarine Tactics and Strategy : http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//downloads.php?do=file&id=499
The Red Book of Submarine Tactics and Strategy : http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//downloads.php?do=file&id=5189
These contain sections on TMA, Fire Control, sonar, weapons, navigation, ship handling, and general tactics (both available for free, initially designed for Jane's 688(I) game)
Some other free documents are available here : http://www.subguru.com/downloads.html
Also something that isn't very clear in the manual but you can use to make the game behave more realistic.
Distance scaling : (gameplay options) http://steamcommunity.com/app/541210/discussions/0/1290691937728475334/
What it does do is change the world scale in the X and Z axes.
This means at 1:1, contacts are much farther out and take longer to get to etc. It is a realistic setting with a much slower pace to the game.
1:4 brings everything in much closer. A contact 15 KYD out is still 15 KYD away, but rendered much closer, is more easily visible (especially underwater) and of course takes much less time to get to/away from. Some would call this less realistic, but is faster paced way to play.
At 1:1 scale, a ship is at 20 kyds and rendered at such. At 1:2, it is still at 20kyds but rendered at 10. At 1:4, it is rendered at 5 kyds in real-world units but the game logic behaves as if it is still 20kyds away. If a player wants a realistic, slow, distance, he would use 1:1 or 1:2 for a little punchier play. If he wants more of a fast-paced experience, he can use 1:3 or 1:4.
Developer mentioned, in live stream earlier, that they're currently working on AI improvements & adding crew voice-overs for patch 1.05.
:hug:
1.04 was released this morning. Extends campaign length & fixes a few bugs in it.
I'm still waiting for those controls before I jump back into this...
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 23, 2017, 10:59:39 AM
I'm still waiting for those controls before I jump back into this...
What controls are you talking about JH? I saw you mentioned it earlier, but the link that took me to the Beta patch info didn't mention any controls
Quote from: JudgeDredd on June 23, 2017, 11:34:11 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 23, 2017, 10:59:39 AM
I'm still waiting for those controls before I jump back into this...
What controls are you talking about JH? I saw you mentioned it earlier, but the link that took me to the Beta patch info didn't mention any controls
The UI controls that will let you dive, go to periscope depth, turn, etc.
The Devs had mentioned that due to popular demand (wailing outcry??) they will be building in controls for "periscope depth", specific depths and speeds. So you can just click on "go to periscope depth" and your boat does it
Quote from: Nefaro on June 23, 2017, 10:37:51 AM
Developer mentioned, in live stream earlier, that they're currently working on AI improvements & adding crew voice-overs for patch 1.05.
:hug:
1.04 was released this morning. Extends campaign length & fixes a few bugs in it.
Damn. The rate of the updates is impressive.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 23, 2017, 01:05:32 PM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on June 23, 2017, 11:34:11 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 23, 2017, 10:59:39 AM
I'm still waiting for those controls before I jump back into this...
What controls are you talking about JH? I saw you mentioned it earlier, but the link that took me to the Beta patch info didn't mention any controls
The UI controls that will let you dive, go to periscope depth, turn, etc.
Must've missed that. Those would be handy. O0
Finally gave this one a shot. Now, besides the tutorials I have only played the first 2 single player missions; although I played "the duel" 5 times with different subs.
It seems like it's too easy though (plying on realistic difficulty). I spawn and I already have a green icon marking generally where the bad guy is. I wait a minute or so for a 50% solution and fire two Mark-48s in the direction and hit
My question is: are all of the engagements like this? Where you have the guy already detected and just have to wait a few?
Quote from: mikeck on June 27, 2017, 09:57:00 PM
Finally gave this one a shot. Now, besides the tutorials I have only played the first 2 single player missions; although I played "the duel" 5 times with different subs.
It seems like it's too easy though (plying on realistic difficulty). I spawn and I already have a green icon marking generally where the bad guy is. I wait a minute or so for a 50% solution and fire two Mark-48s in the direction and hit
My question is: are all of the engagements like this? Where you have the guy already detected and just have to wait a few?
Detection is somewhat simplified since your crew are doing all the work for you. But it's more about when to shoot and tactics you employ. Green detection can be highly inaccurate in terms of location, speed and course.
Under the hood, there are many factors in play in detection. Thermal layers are different. Surface noise levels (rain storm). Your speed and cavitation, etc. You still have to know how these factors work to be successful. The situations can be different per mission.
Sub duels are pretty much the least challenging of missions.
More things are trying to kill you too in campaign missions. With ASW aircraft and Anti Sub Rockets, you get a lot of torpedoes coming out from nowhere. And these torpedoes are as smart and persistent as your Mk48. So you say it's easy to sink stuff with Mk48. It's also easy to be a prey of enemy "smart" torpedoes. So try your best to keep stealthy. And that's a lot of work.
Quote from: mikeck on June 27, 2017, 09:57:00 PM
Finally gave this one a shot. Now, besides the tutorials I have only played the first 2 single player missions; although I played "the duel" 5 times with different subs.
It seems like it's too easy though (plying on realistic difficulty). I spawn and I already have a green icon marking generally where the bad guy is. I wait a minute or so for a 50% solution and fire two Mark-48s in the direction and hit
My question is: are all of the engagements like this? Where you have the guy already detected and just have to wait a few?
It's for sure a lot harder than Red Storm Rising on normal difficulty.
Besides adding playable Russian subs to the game this mod also adds some 15 new single missions.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=5234
Quote from: mikeck on June 27, 2017, 09:57:00 PM
Finally gave this one a shot. Now, besides the tutorials I have only played the first 2 single player missions; although I played "the duel" 5 times with different subs.
It seems like it's too easy though (plying on realistic difficulty). I spawn and I already have a green icon marking generally where the bad guy is. I wait a minute or so for a 50% solution and fire two Mark-48s in the direction and hit
My question is: are all of the engagements like this? Where you have the guy already detected and just have to wait a few?
The AI isn't currently returning fire properly.
They should be firing one, and probably multiple, return torpedo/rocket-torpedo shots when they detect your weapon heading for them. Especially the enemy subs which have long-range heavy torpedoes. But, instead, they aren't returning fire - just cranking up the speed and running.
It is currently far easier than RSR was, on the higher "realistic" levels & such. Once you were detected, or your weapon(s) were, they wouldn't exactly be stingy with their own. Made each encounter challenging. Even forced you to consider keeping the wire just to steer your torpedoes in from a different direction, before they went active, because your target would inevitably start launching torpedoes and/or Silexes down the bearing the torpedo was heading from when first detected. So if you were creeping around silently, and did a straight shot, you would eventually have to deal with homing torpedoes coming back at you. Which was
very deadly in a sub-vs-sub knife fight where mutual detection ranges are much closer; those counter-fired fish don't have to go very far to find you.
Supposed to be some AI fixes in the next update. I specifically asked a dev about the enemy ships not returning fire when under attack, and that was the reply I got. Looking forward to it because this game is excellent, but does still need some tweaking.
Optional 1.5 beta/test patch is out.
Adds crew voices and some fixes.
I'm not sure if it has improved the AI's counter-fire yet. Didn't notice it, specifically, in the patch notes. Been waiting on that improvement before diving back in (and my WoWS premium to expire).
New mod http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=5258
Mod feature list:
- All new 2004 campaign that exists alongside the original campaigns.
- Playable Seawolf (SSN-21), Los Angeles Flt II, and Los Angeles Flt III Class Submarines.
- Added the BQQ-10 Hull Sonar, TB-23 Towed Array, and TB-29 Towed Array in Sensors.txt.
- Added Mk. 48 ADCAP to Weapons.txt. ADCAP is default Torpedo for SSN-21 and LA Flt II/III. Mk. 48 ADCAP is Swim Out enabled on SSN-21, so no launch transient.
- Added the Russian Akula and Sierra II Class Subs as AI opponent vessels, so you will have more capable opponents.
Quote"Crew voices are disabled by default in version 1.05b.
To enable them simply open default/hud/default.txt and change LogVoiceVolume=0 to a value between 0-1 for volume."
For turning on crew voices in the beta patch.
Apparently they got the voices from a Subsim mod. I recognize FPSChazly's voice for some of them (sonarman iirc).
I want to echo some of the AI issues mentioned so far. Way too many times I could wreck a dedicated ASW task group with a volley of torpedoes. The AI seems to be very reluctant to use munitions. I have sank very substantial Soviet surface forces and they went down with almost all of their ammo. It shouldn't be too hard to send munitions down the line of bearing of a weak contact. Many times I will send a torpedo down a line of bearing simply to get them to react. They need to do the same thing to me.
I have no idea how accurate modern torpedoes truly are, but in this game they are absolutely relentless killers. Often times, Ill just send a torpedo down the line of bearing of a surface group and WHAM it almost always hits something. With subs I do try and get a decent solution before I fire, because those are more tricky. Also, when I fire a torpedo at an Alpha from long range, they should be able to outrun it. Most times they don't. In addition, AI subs don't use depth to their advantage when evading torpedoes like human players do. They need to let the torpedo get close and release a counter measure, then do a dramatic depth change. Counter measures seem to work almost every time, I don't know if that's realistic or not. Sure torpedoes can re-acquire and often do, but some variability would make the game more risky for 688 boats.
The good thing with all of these criticism is that they should be easy to fix over time. Getting the AI to shoot me- easy. Getting subs to use depth better- easy. I think Killer Fish did a great job with this game.
Quote from: Swatter on July 05, 2017, 08:59:27 PM
It shouldn't be too hard to send munitions down the line of bearing of a weak contact. Many times I will send a torpedo down a line of bearing simply to get them to react. They need to do the same thing to me.
They should. This is a standard tactic. If they aren't, it definitely needs to be addressed by the devs.
Quote from: mirth on July 05, 2017, 09:08:35 PM
Quote from: Swatter on July 05, 2017, 08:59:27 PM
It shouldn't be too hard to send munitions down the line of bearing of a weak contact. Many times I will send a torpedo down a line of bearing simply to get them to react. They need to do the same thing to me.
They should. This is a standard tactic.
Yep!
The AI, back in ye olde RSR, would do it quite readily. Would even use more, the higher the difficulty setting. I distinctly recall getting return-bearing torpedoes, nearly every time, except when I had set my torpedo to enable (and, therefore, speed up & go active) at the last second.
They would sometimes even launch multiples down staggered bearings, at high difficulty. Made even an advantageous shot potentially dangerous.
Then again, the torpedoes in RSR weren't always quite as quick at turning & reacquiring after encountering a noisemaker decoy. Sometimes they would also drive
through it, instead of always doing a go-round countermeasure avoidance maneuver.
Actually, I think the go-round was usually limited to the Mk48 ADCAPs, and maybe the most advanced Soviet torpedoes for the campaigns, but it's been a long time since I played.
I've had a lot of enjoyment out of CW already. But I've been waiting for the promised AI fix, to enable their return fire, before diving deep & long into CW.
Quote from: Nefaro on July 05, 2017, 09:13:12 PM
They would sometimes even launch multiples down staggered bearings, at high difficulty. Made even an advantageous shot potentially dangerous.
That's particularly nasty. If you're really cagey with the Mk48s, you can run them out off angle then turn them in so the return shots are down the wrong bearing. Hard to do without breaking the control wires though.
What difficulty are you all playing at? Not getting shot at by the AI hasn't been a problem for me, but I'm playing at the hardest level.
I'm playing normal and I get ASROC spams once in a while. The helos usually catch me.
I think it boils down to detection. Keeping stealthy is key to survival. But the AI needs to learn to shoot when attacked even when not detecting the firer and not just evade.
I believe I am playing on the second highest difficulty setting. I think JiveTurkey said the difficultly level corresponds to how often you encounter subs, but I don't know if that's true.
These days, once I get some good information on a task force or a convoy, I go deep and launch a salvo of torpedoes and sprint away. If the first salvo doesn't sink anything (rarely), it seems to break up the formation making it easier to pick ships off. It seems like even their best ASW specialist ships just sit on their ammo until I come to get them.
Plus, I wonder if ships don't have better counter-measures than are presented in the game. Basically, if I get a good fire solution, that ship is as good as dead.
Quote from: Toonces on July 05, 2017, 09:43:12 PM
What difficulty are you all playing at? Not getting shot at by the AI hasn't been a problem for me, but I'm playing at the hardest level.
I moved mine up a difficulty level. One below maximum.
I just don't think the AI is programmed to counter-fire blind shots. Or not well enough to get them to do so on a regular basis.
The developer did say they were working on improving the AI, when I specifically asked about the lack of it's counter-fire. So they're aware. O0
Does anyone else get killed by ASW if and only if you use missiles? I can stay undetected for a long time, but as soon as I deploy a Harpoon, it's like the ASW helicopters are on me like a cheap suit.
Quote from: Slick Wilhelm on July 19, 2017, 08:56:09 AM
Does anyone else get killed by ASW if and only if you use missiles? I can stay undetected for a long time, but as soon as I deploy a Harpoon, it's like the ASW helicopters are on me like a cheap suit.
I imagine that's because they can pinpoint your location much faster. There is a huge giveaway when launching anything surface related.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on July 19, 2017, 09:01:47 AM
Quote from: Slick Wilhelm on July 19, 2017, 08:56:09 AM
Does anyone else get killed by ASW if and only if you use missiles? I can stay undetected for a long time, but as soon as I deploy a Harpoon, it's like the ASW helicopters are on me like a cheap suit.
I imagine that's because they can pinpoint your location much faster. There is a huge giveaway when launching anything surface related.
That's the exact reason.
When launching a missile, it's booster leaves a trail pointing directly back to your launch location. Aircraft can see it from very long distance. Radar can detect it, too. Enemy warships will also shoot their rocket-dropped Silex torpedoes on that area pretty quickly.
Launching missiles isn't subtle at all. I only use ASMs when there's little or no threat from enemy planes & warships, or in desperation to complete my objective before it gets away.
I recall torps in RSR being, in fact, very deadly against surface ships, though naturally the largest ships needed more hits. The Sovs in the 80s didn't have the tech US ships did (decoys, prairie/masker). Their defense against hunter subs was: (1) fellow subs; (2) helos; (3) fixed-wing air searches; (4) counter shots along lines of bearing to force cutting wires and so messing with the aim a little. Some ships could create knuckles to spoof a torp at the last moment maybe. Basically, hit the US before he can shoot, and mess with his aim afterward, or at least kill him if he shoots trading ships for subs hoping for an attrition win over time.
The Mk 48 torpedo works wonderfully well in the game, but I find shooting missiles to be great fun. I just don't like paying the penalty for it.
Lobbing Harpoons is fun.
***WARNING, rant ahead***
Alright, I just about threw my chair against the wall last night because of a super annoying incident during my 1984 campaign. It was during one of those "Launch at least 8 TLAM missiles at xxx port" missions. This particular one was at Murmansk.
I closed to within striking distance and launched 4 TLAMs from 200ft depth. That, of course, set off the ASW bells in the neighborhood. I had a Bear dropping sonobuoys all over me, then came the rain of ASW torpedoes. I successfully evaded 4 torps, but the 5th one hit me on the port bow for 25% hull damage. So for the next 90 minutes, I spent a nail biting time trying to keep my sub from sinking and hitting bottom, which I managed to do, using a combination of speed, planes and ballast adjustments. Great fun! The Bear even left me alone long enough for me to launch my second salvo of TLAMs in order to complete my mission objectives. Eventually, I was able to get the flooding under control enough to leave combat. I was thinking "Great job, Slick, the brass are going to love me for completing my mission AND surviving the ASW attacks". They were happy enough with my successful mission, but immediately assigned me another mission! It was if my messages to them informing them of my sub's damaged condition made absolutely no difference to them.
Now for the annoying part...after being assigned another mission, I thought "ok, fine, my sub's not in the best shape, but I'll soldier on". Go to the map screen, thinking I'll start my trip to the next location...BOOM! Three ASW groups are on me like a cheap suit on the map in less than two seconds. The worst part is that my flooding was apparently NOT in control from the end of the last mission! I started with flooding in the bow, tubes and ballast/pumps sections. And, since apparently damage control parties on modern subs can only work on one part of a sub at a time, you end up playing "whack-a-mole" between the three compartments.
Now, imagine yourself getting tired and just wanting to have five seconds on the map screen in order to save the game and go to bed. And then imagine yourself getting attacked by group after group of ASW fleets on the map, not allowing you those five seconds. After another hour of sinking more ships and subs, and playing damage control wack-a-mole, I finally just abandoned ship so that I could actually save my campaign and go to bed. :pullhair:
After surviving such a harrowing mission, I wish there was a "rtb" button where it is assumed that you successfully evaded the enemy in combat and made your way back to port.
Anyway, thanks for letting me vent.
I don't know if it's modeled in game but it wouldn't surprise if it is. If your sub took hull damage, your stealthiness is shot. First, the damage on your hull will reflect sound if the enemy is using active, making you more detectable. Also, if you have flooding I would assume that the noise would cause transients that can be detected passively. That might have been why you were detected and so aggressively attacked in the following mission.
You should have had that stuff repaired in port before you sortied again. I know, you already know this now. 8)
Sorry if I wasn't clear, toonces. I was *trying* to return to base before going onto the next mission. But, whenever I clicked "continue" and went to the map screen, I would immediately get jumped by another ASW group, starting another combat. I never even had time to save the game before it threw me into the next round of combat.
It's okay to head back to port, and brush off a mission, if need be. You can get away with doing so multiple times in a campaign. It may extend the campaign longer (not necessarily a bad thing) but it won't be a loss unless you've been repeatedly failing them lately.
When I get damaged, or my weapon stores get down to where I have less than 5 or 6 fish, I usually head back. Depending on current mission. Since most are wins, I can afford to lose one on occasion.
I've had it give me orders to RTB, due to low stores or damage, before. But that threshold is set pretty high in the campaign. For weapons, I don't recall getting it until I was down to ~3 in an LA or Sturgeon. May be even 2 or less. I suspect the damage threshold is judged by overall hull damage %, so 25 probably wasn't enough to trip it.
Also: Don't forget to put your repair party on the Pumps. I have no idea if your pumps were still damaged between encounters, but I've screwed up by not noticing the pumps needed repair in the past. I just put them there, by default, when everything is caught up anyway. Your renewed flooding may well be a bug, however. Pretty sure I saw it mentioned in some patch notes before.
As for getting jumped by multiple enemy groups as soon as you get back into the strategic map, I've also had the same experience on missions in the Barents sea. Judging by their behavior on the strat map in general, it tends to spawn multiple enemy groups any time you are detected. Such as strat map air patrol or when you have an encounter & sink anyone. Ofc those groups spawn from enemy bases & ports. So being in the Soviet Barents "back yard", right next to their bases, they pop out right next to you.
I kept having this happen with Soviet sub groups after going around the north cape on a SEAL infil mission. A stream of them kept popping out of Murmansk (where I had to go). Likely doing their own missions (the random sorties) AND getting suspicious about their previous ones getting blowed up so close to base. As soon as I would get out of one, and back to the campaign map, another would run into me within a second or two. Made for slow going. But I began to get concerned about my remaining torpedoes, so I started staying silent and evading them which was a fun change (sailed between a pair of them, and past, on one encounter 8) ). You'll eventually get a respite enough to get clear of the traffic. I just chalk it up to being right on the enemy's doorstep, deep in enemy territory.
I imagine naval ports /docks will be heavily patrolled in wartime and additionally if you launch missles against the mainland you can expect them to be pissed and come after you.
Slick-
Ok, I didn't understand what you were describing. That does sound pretty annoying.
Hey guys,
Version 1.07D is out. It adds a lot more gui functionality like periscope depth, crash dive, etc.
And a much more aggressive AI. I have yet to survive an encounter with an ASW helicopter with this patch. Now they throw multiple torps in the water at you.
I don't know if you guys knew this, but since patch 1.06 you can enable crew voices. Adds a lot to the game.
^wow. That's awesome. Need to update it and play.
Just finished a mission with the latest patch. Fantastic job by the devs...the ability to set course and speed via the helm, and the new voices really improve the game dramatically.
Quote from: Slick Wilhelm on September 02, 2017, 05:36:46 PM
Hey guys,
Version 1.07D is out. It adds a lot more gui functionality like periscope depth, crash dive, etc.
And a much more aggressive AI. I have yet to survive an encounter with an ASW helicopter with this patch. Now they throw multiple torps in the water at you.
I don't know if you guys knew this, but since patch 1.06 you can enable crew voices. Adds a lot to the game.
Was just waiting to see if they had another clean-up patch coming soon, on any unforeseen issues this one may have caused, before starting a new campaign. <:-)
The new features are great. I'll be exceptionally happy if they've made the AI blind fire torpedoes at you, after detecting yours coming at them. Hopefully that's part of the new aggressive AI too. :coolsmiley:
The devs really stepped up and added what was requested. It was a great 'sim-lite' game before. Now it must be even better.
Judging from the amount of viewers watching people play
Cold Waters on Twitch and YT Live streams, and all the extra features the devs added after release, this title must've sold surprisingly well for them. I was pleasantly surprised at the interest & questions by so many newcomers to the genre. The crotchety old hardcore simmers are wrong to claim 'lite' sims aren't needed.
When they start releasing DLC that adds different playable subs & campaigns, they will have already taken my money.
I wonder which country will get the first new expansion? USSR? Britain? ???
Incidentally, Slick's experience kind of mirrors part of the storyline of Red Storm Rising: I recall a team of subs launching on a bomber airfield in order to strike while the bombers are landing and most vulnerable (which is easier to predict than when they're preparing to sortie), and trying to crawl back to the safety of the ice shelf -- the harassment doesn't end well. :'(
I remember that part Jason. Wasn't that Operation Doolittle? USS Boston, USS Chicago..and a few other boats?
I remember attempting that in Harpoon Classic (which for me was the 1995 CD) and once you launched your SLCMs you had to haul ass because the Red Banner Northern Fleet would be throwing everything at you to hunt you down.
As mentioned here, the changes in this game are superb. I fired it up last night for a quick blast and was impressed with the changes. They help with immersion and control of the sub O0
Ironically enough I'm re reading RSR right now. The three main subs in Doolittle were Chicago, Boston and Providence.
One of the subs was damaged shortly after launch leading to their problems but yeah I imagine if you launch middles right off someone's coast they're gonna be pissed.
Quote from: jamus34 on September 07, 2017, 05:53:31 AM
Ironically enough I'm re reading RSR right now. The three main subs in Doolittle were Chicago, Boston and Providence.
One of the subs was damaged shortly after launch leading to their problems but yeah I imagine if you launch middles right off someone's coast they're gonna be pissed.
One was damaged, in the story, due to a previously unseen Grisha sitting nearby with it's engine off (or idle?) IIRC.
I recall 'Subguru' having issues with modelling that in his custom RSR campaign for
Sub Command around '04 or so. Was no in-game script for such an idling vessel which would stay that way until it detected something. He had to just set it to spawn the Grisha when TLAMs were in the air, I think.
Still working on this game. Got in three interesting missions tonight.
First one, I'm looking for a wolfback of Russian diesel subs, but come across two nukes. A few minutes of maneuvering and listening brings them in as an Alfa and a Victor II. An Alfa? No shit!
We're already close aboard when I enter the game, and by the time I lock these guys down we're really close, like less than 5kyds to the Alfa and maybe 7kyds to the Vic II. So I decide to snapshot both. Get what seems to me to be a really good shot on the Alfa. He hears it immediately and pops off a torp down the line of bearing, then turns tail and cranks on 42kts. Holy crap! I have to evade his shot, and in the process I snap the wire to my torp. I was just off axis, and I've never seen this yet, but the Alfa outruns my torp while number two takes out the Victor. That was pretty cool.
Next encounter I come up against Mr. Alfa again, along with a Vic I. I'm going to try to go around them, but the way I enter the mission I have no way of evading north around the Alfa before he'll hear me. Once again, I snapshot both, but this time I stay slow and am able to get a lock on the Alfa before I have to evade. Finally take him out with less than two minutes run time on the torp left. Wow!
Final sortie, I come across two diesel boats, a Tango and an unidentfied second. We're really close, like 4-5kyds when I get the Tango...I know there is at least one more diesel out there but I don't have him yet. I'm slowly working my way around the Tango when he goes active and shoots. No time to lose, I shoot right back with a very short run-to-enable, then turn to evade the Tango's shot. Meanwhile, I get another active hit from diesel 2 that I still don't hear, and then there are torps everywhere. I'm evading at least three Russian torps when one of mine hits and kills the Tango. But then the second torp I shot down the bearing of the second diesel goes active, doesn't have the Foxtrot, circles, and then acquires me! Oh crap!
I evade for at least 10 minutes real time and go through 15 noisemakers. Finally I'm starting to wonder if maybe the Mk-48 has a setting that keeps hit from killing a U.S. boat so I let it close for the kill. Turns out I was just a hot shot sub driver because it then proceeds to kill me dead. Crap...I wish I had kept up the evasion.
So I'll revert the save, but still, quite a couple of knife fights.
Note to self: Stay well away from Mk-48s, that is one bitch of a torpedo to evade.
Quote from: Toonces on October 03, 2017, 08:10:11 PM
Note to self: Stay well away from Mk-48s, that is one bitch of a torpedo to evade.
Smart torps.
Yep, most subs will now take a snapshot at you from the bearing of the transient of your torpedo...so once you fire you would be well-advised to go defensive.
Quote from: Slick Wilhelm on October 04, 2017, 06:49:41 PM
Yep, most subs will now take a snapshot at you from the bearing of the transient of your torpedo...so once you fire you would be well-advised to go defensive.
Excellent.
Was just getting ready to start up a new campaign & see if they updated the AI with this behavior yet. It was the only thing I had been waiting on. :bd:
Quote from: Nefaro on October 05, 2017, 03:14:55 AM
Quote from: Slick Wilhelm on October 04, 2017, 06:49:41 PM
Yep, most subs will now take a snapshot at you from the bearing of the transient of your torpedo...so once you fire you would be well-advised to go defensive.
Excellent.
Was just getting ready to start up a new campaign & see if they updated the AI with this behavior yet. It was the only thing I had been waiting on. :bd:
Just remember that not every enemy sub hears your transient immediately, so not every sub takes a shot. But I don't gamble. I make going defensive SOP after launching a mk 48.
With a 48, you should be able to setup for an off angle shot and guide into the target on a dog leg. That way the return shot is down the wrong bearing. Of course, it depends on the launch range and the capabilities of the target.
That's what I do. Launch at long range and dog-leg. After the turn and once I notice the enemy subs acting like they know the torps are there, I keep my speed at full (anything more they can hear me over the torps)dive and move away. The enemy snapshots down the bearing of the torp and doesn't come me close. To me, this is the greatest advantage of wire-guided torpedoe
Quote from: Slick Wilhelm on October 05, 2017, 06:40:32 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on October 05, 2017, 03:14:55 AM
Quote from: Slick Wilhelm on October 04, 2017, 06:49:41 PM
Yep, most subs will now take a snapshot at you from the bearing of the transient of your torpedo...so once you fire you would be well-advised to go defensive.
Excellent.
Was just getting ready to start up a new campaign & see if they updated the AI with this behavior yet. It was the only thing I had been waiting on. :bd:
Just remember that not every enemy sub hears your transient immediately, so not every sub takes a shot. But I don't gamble. I make going defensive SOP after launching a mk 48.
No. But they shouldn't
need to detect a transient in order to return fire. All they need to do is detect the running torpedo and return a BOL down that bearing, at the least.
I still have doubts the AI has been programmed to do that, though. It may be launching only at transient detections, but not incoming torpedoes. Not sure yet until I run it for awhile.
Quote from: mirth on October 05, 2017, 06:51:49 PM
With a 48, you should be able to setup for an off angle shot and guide into the target on a dog leg. That way the return shot is down the wrong bearing. Of course, it depends on the launch range and the capabilities of the target.
Yes. This is part of the reason I want the AI to blind fire down hostile bearings.
It is what the old RSR game did, on decent difficulty levels. It would force you fir off-angle, keep your wire, and manually turn them in to mask your real position in order to avoid Bearing Only return homing torpedo fire.
Otherwise, a straight shot would usually result in having to deal with a hostile torpedo, or even two, coming right at you. Forcing you to put on some speed and clear datum ASAP after firing a straight shot, or firing a dog-leg shot from the start.
Was great in the old game. Added much deadliness to sub-vs-sub knife fights. Something that is glaringly missing in Cold Waters.
Ohhhh! :dreamer:
___________________________
Coming Soon - New Content
November 2 - Killerfish Games
We've been busy working on Cold Waters and over the next few months expect to see new content being added to the base game. The plan (subject to change) is to have all this in sometime around the New Year.
As a thank you to all who supported Cold Waters and made it such a success, this additional content will be added free to the base game. :o
Feel free to discuss this new content here:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/541210/discussions/0/1479857071254469075/
New Playable Submarines
Two highly requested submarines are being added for players to skipper:
- Seawolf
- 688i
Neutral Vessels and Oil Rigs
Neutral vessels will now be transiting the combat theatre and oil rigs may be present in some regions, making it crucial to correctly identify targets before unleashing weapons.
South China Sea Theatre
An all new campaign and map based in the South China Sea is coming with a naval conflict set in the early to mid 90's.
The various ships and submarines of the People's Liberation Army Navy planned to be added include:
Luhu DDG
Luda DDG
Jianghu FFG
Jianghu-3 FFG
Jiangwei FFG
Chengdu FFG
Yukan LST
Yuting LST
Xia SSBN
Han SSN
Song SSK
Kilo SSK
Ming SS
Foxtrot SS
http://steamcommunity.com/games/541210/announcements/detail/1446080074059065150
^wow!
Sha-wing!!!!
:bd: \m/
Noice!
That's a lot of content for free.
The SCS theater sounds downright loin-moistening.
I'd love to see the devs take on the North Atlantic theater, but do it from the Russian side. That would be a real challenge!
Quite honestly, with the state of the Chinese Navy in the 90s, I can't see the South China Sea as being too interesting.
The US and allies should have a real technological edge.
Stalking US carriers might be a challenge if you can do the Chicom navy.
Quote from: Toonces on November 07, 2017, 04:41:42 PM
That's a lot of content for free.
The SCS theater sounds downright loin-moistening.
I'd love to see the devs take on the North Atlantic theater, but do it from the Russian side. That would be a real challenge!
even better - I would like to play a USSR guided missile boat vs a US convoy task force.
Quote from: Toonces on November 07, 2017, 04:41:42 PM
I'd love to see the devs take on the North Atlantic theater, but do it from the Russian side. That would be a real challenge!
I've been under the impression that a Soviet/Russian campaign will likely be done in a future DLC, by the dev's previous posts. Along with some mention of the British too.
I'm surprised they're still adding new content for free. They must've sold far beyond their expectations. They've been adding a bunch of player requests already. These guys are great. :bd:
Quote from: besilarius on November 07, 2017, 08:54:50 PM
Quite honestly, with the state of the Chinese Navy in the 90s, I can't see the South China Sea as being too interesting.
The US and allies should have a real technological edge.
Agreed.
Hell, you're quite advantaged running an LA class in the 84 campaign against the Soviet Navy which was much more capable tech-wise than the Chinese navy a decade later. Especially considering they're adding a Seawolf SSN. The tech spread will be even wider.
I'd think that going a different direction with playables, in a South China Sea campaign, would be a better option for purposes of challenge. Such as having playable Japanese diesel subs. Although I'm not as keen on running diesel-elecs in such a dynamic campaign, the lower top speed on diesels would
really hurt when attempting to evade attacks, so it could make the Chinese navy more dangerous for the player.
Hrmm.. who knows? Maybe they'll give the Chinese some extra allies (Russia?) for it.
I'm also surprised they're offering the DLC for free...I almost wish they would charge a few bucks to keep the revenue flowing. These guys are really onto something with this one, and I think there is a great deal of room still to grow.
This is now available on GoG (along with Atlantic Fleet).
Tempting. Tempting.
Quote from: DoctorQuest on January 04, 2018, 02:14:11 PM
This is now available on GoG (along with Atlantic Fleet).
Tempting. Tempting.
Worth getting for $32.
Quote from: mirth on January 04, 2018, 02:17:35 PM
Quote from: DoctorQuest on January 04, 2018, 02:14:11 PM
This is now available on GoG (along with Atlantic Fleet).
Tempting. Tempting.
Worth getting for $32.
Ok. I'm in. Thanks, Mirth.
I was a little worried about it running on my rig but with a few tweaks it looks and runs just fine.
Surprisingly, it doesn't need a lot of horsepower. Plays just fine on my 7 year old Macbook.
DCS could use some help from these guys.
Whelp, this was my best run so far, playing a Sturgeon class in the 1984 campaign.
I knew the last mission was suicide, so I may revert to the save and continue the campaign from that. I was tasked to take out the Moskva. Unfortunately, I ran afoul of a Russian surface group on my way to intercept the carrier group... a Kresta and Krivak ASW group. I actually ended up kicking my own ass. I got detected by the Kresta before I had a good shot set up and so I had to evade and I let loose two snap shots at the ships. Unfortunately for me, I broke the wires on both torps, and to make matters worse, I shot at close range such that I ended up spending 20 minutes evading my own torpedoes!
I shot all 4 of my Moss's during the evasion, but managed somehow to evade one completely, and got the second one to acquire the Kresta by some tricky maneuvering. So I took out both ships, but expended my best countermeasures.
The Moskva group got past me, so I didn't have time to hit Holy Loch to re-arm. I raced into the North Atlantic and somehow caught up with them, but I got dumped into the scenario pretty close, and they had an Alfa that got me almost immediately on active. Next thing I know I've got Russian torps all over me. I got off a few snap shots, and took out two escorts, but by then a helo was all over me and I simply ran out of room to maneuver.
Pretty tense gameplay, though!
you love Russian seaman all over your face, admit it.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on January 13, 2018, 08:19:42 PM
you love Russian seaman all over your face, admit it.
What just happened?
Quote from: mikeck on January 13, 2018, 08:29:33 PM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on January 13, 2018, 08:19:42 PM
you love Russian seaman all over your face, admit it.
What just happened?
Star + home alone + alcohol = what just happened. :D
I reloaded the saved campaign, but it somehow just felt like cheating. I managed to intercept the Moskva group in the save re-start, way way out, like 25k yards. I got some really nice ESM hits and just unloaded a 4 shot TASM strike. All four ended up hitting the Moskva and took her down. I cheated by checking it in 3D view since I had no idea what I was actually shooting at.
After that, it was quite easy to escape, but afterwards it felt kind of hollow after all the work I had put into the campaign up to that point. So I think I'm going to accept my defeat and re-start a new 1984 campaign. Going to go with the LA this time, though.
I did start a new 1968 campaign, but I've come to the conclusion that I really prefer the 1984 campaign more. I like being able to use the better wire-guided torps, the Moss's, and the missiles. It makes for a more interesting experience all around, IMO.
Man, I'm a little drunk! I'll just play a bit of Cold Waters...not too hard, not too much brain burn for a drunken Saturday night, right?
Ah crap. ::)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4750/24937575827_1904c1ae22_b.jpg)
Alcohol and Cold Water don't mix. :2funny:
Heh.
I sank all three. You better bring your A-game if you're going to f- with Toonces in ASW. >:D
Then got a November that was tagging along in the vicinity next mission.
The LA is a sexy beast, for sure. :smitten:
Quote from: Toonces on January 20, 2018, 11:50:23 PM
Heh.
I sank all three. You better bring your A-game if you're going to f- with Toonces in ASW. >:D
Then got a November that was tagging along in the vicinity next mission.
The LA is a sexy beast, for sure. :smitten:
After short breaks I'll run an LA-class for a bit, while getting reacquainted with the controls, but they are pretty damn powerful against the Soviet fleet in the '84 campaign.
I tend to switch over to a Sturgeon class ASAP, if it feels I'm walking over the enemy too easily. While still having many advantages, that extra little noise and slower speed turns up the heat a bit. :nerd: Or a Permit for extra hairy danger.
Loos like the big South China Sea update is out.
http://killerfishgames.com/general/south-china-sea-free-update
Wow. That's a hell of an update for free.
Fo Free?! :bd:
You don't see that word very often these days.
Quote from: Nefaro on January 21, 2018, 06:04:57 PM
Quote from: Toonces on January 20, 2018, 11:50:23 PM
Heh.
I sank all three. You better bring your A-game if you're going to f- with Toonces in ASW. >:D
Then got a November that was tagging along in the vicinity next mission.
The LA is a sexy beast, for sure. :smitten:
I tend to switch over to a Sturgeon class ASAP, if it feels I'm walking over the enemy too easily. While still having many advantages, that extra little noise and slower speed turns up the heat a bit. :nerd: Or a Permit for extra hairy danger.
Wait until you try the Seawolf in the South China Sea. Makes
me wish the US Navy could have bought a few more of these
This game is a real gem.
Quote from: mikeck on May 17, 2018, 07:37:52 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on January 21, 2018, 06:04:57 PM
Quote from: Toonces on January 20, 2018, 11:50:23 PM
Heh.
I sank all three. You better bring your A-game if you're going to f- with Toonces in ASW. >:D
Then got a November that was tagging along in the vicinity next mission.
The LA is a sexy beast, for sure. :smitten:
I tend to switch over to a Sturgeon class ASAP, if it feels I'm walking over the enemy too easily. While still having many advantages, that extra little noise and slower speed turns up the heat a bit. :nerd: Or a Permit for extra hairy danger.
Wait until you try the Seawolf in the South China Sea. Makes
me wish the US Navy could have bought a few more of these
All hypothetical though right? Or do they have the real data to work off?
Quote from: mirth on May 18, 2018, 05:20:22 PM
This game is a real gem.
Has anyone ever seen it on sale on Steam?
May be that I've seen and passed on a small discount, 5-10% or something -- but I don't think I've ever seen it 20% off or anything close, else I'd probably have picked it up.
Quote from: mirth on May 17, 2018, 10:25:56 AM
Wow. That's a hell of an update for free.
On the campaign and feature set alone, it's an expansion!
Quote from: sandman2575 on May 18, 2018, 10:14:20 PM
Has anyone ever seen it on sale on Steam?
May be that I've seen and passed on a small discount, 5-10% or something -- but I don't think I've ever seen it 20% off or anything close, else I'd probably have picked it up.
Me too, and no, it's never seen on sale because I've always had it on my wish list. I might pull the trigger now because of this new content.
Just saw this.
Guys, this game is worth every single penny they're asking for it, plus $20. I can't believe Killerfish is releasing all this content for free.
Seriously, this is one case where I actually wish they were charging for DLC. I truly want to see this team, and this game, survive and grow.
<Throws money at computer screen>
I'm sure you're right, toonces. I guess I've developed the habit that unless I intend to play a game now, I don't buy unless it's on sale for a tempting price. Which in actuality isn't a really productive way to go about it, as I've bought plenty of games on sale for tempting discount, and then never get around to playing anyway. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, I guess.
Quote from: Destraex on May 18, 2018, 08:39:20 PM
Quote from: mikeck on May 17, 2018, 07:37:52 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on January 21, 2018, 06:04:57 PM
Quote from: Toonces on January 20, 2018, 11:50:23 PM
Heh.
I sank all three. You better bring your A-game if you're going to f- with Toonces in ASW. >:D
Then got a November that was tagging along in the vicinity next mission.
The LA is a sexy beast, for sure. :smitten:
I tend to switch over to a Sturgeon class ASAP, if it feels I'm walking over the enemy too easily. While still having many advantages, that extra little noise and slower speed turns up the heat a bit. :nerd: Or a Permit for extra hairy danger.
Wait until you try the Seawolf in the South China Sea. Makes
me wish the US Navy could have bought a few more of these
All hypothetical though right? Or do they have the real data to work off?
Well, as real as we they can guess. I mean, the Navy still won't release the diving depth of the LA class but we get along fine with it in game. The Seawolf is extremely quite and that is something well known...as it's exceptional sonar.
There is always guess work. In fact, the devs made the Russian Yassen class even quieter than the Seawolf. Now I don't believe that is the case due to machining capability, history and the fact that the Seawolf is basically silent. So same? Maybe...but not quieter.
That said, no one knows so in games like this, it's alwsys educated guesswork right?
But if you get detected sneaking around in the Seawolf, you're doing it wrong
:)
I suck at this game. Seriously...I'm really bad. I do not have the patience for submarine warfare.
I can help you, sir.
Quote from: Toonces on May 19, 2018, 04:07:23 PM
<Throws money at computer screen>
actual video of Toonces buying DLC.
(https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-24-2015/qcIZDJ.gif)
I had a chance to spend a few hours with the Chinese module yesterday. Man alive, what a mess of submarine warfare.
Operating those big nuke boats in that shallow water simply sucks. I mean, I knew it would suck, but it was still a bummer.
I found through a bit of experimentation that there was little value in trying to be too stealthy. I'm not sure if the acoustic modeling is correct, or if they're still tweaking things, but it seems like the Chinese subs will detect a launch transient almost every time and immediately put a torp down the line of bearing. I was very unsuccessful at wire-guiding torps off-axis to the target. Also, enemy subs are all too willing to put a torp in the water if they even have a hint of you. Operating in shallow water, there is almost nothing you can do but shoot some torps, cut the wires, go flank cavitating all over the place, and start pulling underwater G's. Skillful use of MOSS was critical.
Finally, on normal settings, my Seawolf took two torps and I could still drive it, although I had to blow tanks and surface to boat to control the flooding. I don't know if the Seawolf has a super thick hull, or if the Chinese torps have very small warheads, but that seems kind of...ok, I'll say it...unrealistic.
There is some interesting potential here. What I think bums me out about the game the most in general is that you always start within 10k yards or so of enemy subs. Depending on how you're being cued to the targets, you could be picking those guys up several convergence zones off. I'd like an opportunity sometimes, if the water supports it, to start farther out and have a chance to actually maneuver the sub more advantageously. As it is, it seems like I always end up in the path of the enemy with a choice to randomly turn left or right around their track. Good if I guess right, bad if I guess wrong before I develop their course. I never seem to start perpendicular to their track, or even in a tail chase.
I like this game, but I can only play it in small doses, maybe two or three missions at a sitting. A game like Silent Hunter has much more operational and tactical decision making required on the player's part IMO.
I forgot all about the realism options. Yesterday, my Seawolf took three torpedo hits on what turned out to be the default Casual setting. At the time I thought that was completely unrealistic. So now I'm running on Realistic. Not sure whether I'm game enough yet to play at the highest difficulty setting.
I have been trying to keep up. Really.
How do GOG version owners get access to the South China Sea update?
Quote from: DoctorQuest on June 02, 2018, 09:53:10 PM
I have been trying to keep up. Really.
How do GOG version owners get access to the South China Sea update?
Are you using Galaxy?
Quote from: Toonces on May 28, 2018, 09:45:15 AM
I had a chance to spend a few hours with the Chinese module yesterday. Man alive, what a mess of submarine warfare.
Operating those big nuke boats in that shallow water simply sucks. I mean, I knew it would suck, but it was still a bummer.
I found through a bit of experimentation that there was little value in trying to be too stealthy. I'm not sure if the acoustic modeling is correct, or if they're still tweaking things, but it seems like the Chinese subs will detect a launch transient almost every time and immediately put a torp down the line of bearing. I was very unsuccessful at wire-guiding torps off-axis to the target. Also, enemy subs are all too willing to put a torp in the water if they even have a hint of you. Operating in shallow water, there is almost nothing you can do but shoot some torps, cut the wires, go flank cavitating all over the place, and start pulling underwater G's. Skillful use of MOSS was critical.
Finally, on normal settings, my Seawolf took two torps and I could still drive it, although I had to blow tanks and surface to boat to control the flooding. I don't know if the Seawolf has a super thick hull, or if the Chinese torps have very small warheads, but that seems kind of...ok, I'll say it...unrealistic.
There is some interesting potential here. What I think bums me out about the game the most in general is that you always start within 10k yards or so of enemy subs. Depending on how you're being cued to the targets, you could be picking those guys up several convergence zones off. I'd like an opportunity sometimes, if the water supports it, to start farther out and have a chance to actually maneuver the sub more advantageously. As it is, it seems like I always end up in the path of the enemy with a choice to randomly turn left or right around their track. Good if I guess right, bad if I guess wrong before I develop their course. I never seem to start perpendicular to their track, or even in a tail chase.
I like this game, but I can only play it in small doses, maybe two or three missions at a sitting. A game like Silent Hunter has much more operational and tactical decision making required on the player's part IMO.
In shallow water, the ambient noise level should be notably higher than deep sea. There should be a sizable degradation of sonar performance, especially regarding the low and v-low freq sonars such as the towed and hull sonars on subs. Plus the more efficient ones in such areas, the medium and hi-freq sonars, are naturally less capable, regarding potential range, than the low freq ones.
I would expect launch transients to be more difficult to detect in those shallow waters. Even more so if you're using a sub with 'swim-out' fish, such as the Mk48 ADCAP.
Quote from: mbar on June 03, 2018, 07:28:16 AM
Quote from: DoctorQuest on June 02, 2018, 09:53:10 PM
I have been trying to keep up. Really.
How do GOG version owners get access to the South China Sea update?
Are you using Galaxy?
I don't normally use it but I cranked it up after I saw your question. All I see for Cold Waters is a patch and a DLC for music. I guess I'll install the patch....
Quote from: DoctorQuest on June 03, 2018, 08:30:47 PM
Quote from: mbar on June 03, 2018, 07:28:16 AM
Quote from: DoctorQuest on June 02, 2018, 09:53:10 PM
I have been trying to keep up. Really.
How do GOG version owners get access to the South China Sea update?
Are you using Galaxy?
Sverdlov anyway...nice to see this ship:
Quote from: MengJiao on June 21, 2018, 11:48:40 PM
Sverdlov anyway...nice to see this ship:
And Riga in Rough Seas:
I also noticed the game on sale. Is this a real difficult game? I don't have that much experience with the naval games. Thanks
Quote from: demjansk1942 on June 24, 2018, 04:53:09 AM
I also noticed the game on sale. Is this a real difficult game? I don't have that much experience with the naval games. Thanks
The GUI for controlling the sub is a lot easier to master than the earlier sub games I've played and interacting with the passive sonar to figure out what exactly the contacts are and what they are and where they are going is much, much easier than in the earlier sub games I've played. This puts the focus on how to conduct your engagements and there the learning curve may be somewhat steep since for example, a Soviet FFG may detect you at pretty long range if you move too fast and the ducting is good -- if it does, it will drop a smart torpedo near you via a missile and you'll have to know how to use decoys and knuckles and noisemakers to fool and avoid the torpedo. So that sort of thing will take some learning -- but the interface isn't too complex and there is a multi-step tutorial and a good manual.
Quote from: demjansk1942 on June 24, 2018, 04:53:09 AM
I also noticed the game on sale. Is this a real difficult game? I don't have that much experience with the naval games. Thanks
If you're unfamiliar with modern sub warfare & ASW tactics, it will require some learnin' to know what is going on and what to do.
There are probably some primers on such things, for the game, as it's been fairly popular even with those who didn't know all that stuff beforehand.
I ask since I just finished the book called Rising Tide, great book on the Soviet Union and the Subs in the Cold War.
Quote from: demjansk1942 on June 24, 2018, 06:42:53 PM
I ask since I just finished the book called Rising Tide, great book on the Soviet Union and the Subs in the Cold War.
+1 Great book.
Just saw this posted on the Command forum.
https://youtu.be/mnP_z3qXDCQ
Looks cool but maybe a little silly. At least shows some of the right weapons.
Quote from: RyanE on July 27, 2018, 12:27:32 PM
Just saw this posted on the Command forum.
https://youtu.be/mnP_z3qXDCQ (https://youtu.be/mnP_z3qXDCQ)
Looks cool but maybe a little silly. At least shows some of the right weapons.
http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=22710.msg625205#msg625205
Ah, I didn't even think of that forum. Was just thinking the graphics reminded me of CW.
The CG may be the best thing going for it.
Also wanted to ask;In CW, is there a mission recorder so you can go back and watch your mission in action?
Quote from: RyanE on July 27, 2018, 12:42:52 PM
Also wanted to ask;In CW, is there a mission recorder so you can go back and watch your mission in action?
I don't believe so. It's a feature request on Steam, but I don't see where the devs have commented on it.
It is very impressive how much they keep adding to the game
https://steamcommunity.com/games/541210/announcements/detail/1690421280631840291
^ Heh. So cool to see abandoners who used to be part of the team, but totally bailed.
Anyway, once again I'm logging some hours into Cold Waters, and once again I'm getting frustrated with the little (?) things. Or maybe not so little.
What drives me absolutely crazy about this game is that it always seems to drop me within practically direct path range of whatever I'm going after. This is even if I'm sitting completely still in an ambush spot near a choke point.
In the most recent mission, I'm sitting just off the Denmark Strait, perfectly still for about two days waiting for contact. In that water, one would think I'd get some good CZ on the target coming in, and be able to position myself off-axis. It's this aspect that is killing me. The game always drops the player in front of the target, with the target heading towards them, but off axis left or right. It's a crap shoot as to which direction it is, so you're left to guess. You go from this very high level operational level, to a very close tactical level, and lack the ability to use your stealth to get off to the side and ambush the target.
I love the game, it's fun, but the mechanics are getting stale. This game desperately needs to bump out the detect-to-engage range to about 60kyd and give the player a chance to use submarine stealth. Things just start too much in knife-fight range, every single time.
I've had it in my library for a good while now but its posts like these that keep me from firing it up. Those are issues that will bother me for sure as well. Sigh.
Quote from: Yskonyn on October 08, 2018, 06:15:40 AM
I've had it in my library for a good while now but its posts like these that keep me from firing it up. Those are issues that will bother me for sure as well. Sigh.
It's an excellent game.
Definitely a modern
Red Storm Rising.
What would help too is friendly AI ships and subs. They want you to stop and invasion armada with a single sub ? Like toonces said they drop you right in there, as soon as you take a shot theres a hail of missile launched torpedoes landing next to you. It's like the goal of the mission should be survive and shadow the armada, with the secondary of maybe take out a ship or two until the U.S. ships can join in. The campaign just seems so arcadey with its victory level settings and the you against the world vibe. Doesn't the pac fleet exists in the hypothetical war with China ?
The sim has a lot of potential, but it needs some more work. I love the way they made the subs easy to approach and jump into, but lone wolfing against battle groups in the campaign just doesn't seem how it's done in RL...but I'm no submariner so...
Quote from: Skoop on October 08, 2018, 11:47:57 AM
What would help too is friendly AI ships and subs. They want you to stop and invasion armada with a single sub ? Like toonces said they drop you right in there, as soon as you take a shot theres a hail of missile launched torpedoes landing next to you. It's like the goal of the mission should be survive and shadow the armada, with the secondary of maybe take out a ship or two until the U.S. ships can join in. The campaign just seems so arcadey with its victory level settings and the you against the world vibe. Doesn't the pac fleet exists in the hypothetical war with China ?
The sim has a lot of potential, but it needs some more work. I love the way they made the subs easy to approach and jump into, but lone wolfing against battle groups in the campaign just doesn't seem how it's done in RL...but I'm no submariner so...
You're in a nuclear attack sub operating on the enemy's front doorstep or even in his back yard, not running a surface group. You're all about sneak attacks.
As for spawning into each engagement and getting detected right off the bat, I think one of the more recent updates made the game more difficult. Run it on "Normal" difficulty, at most, for awhile. It's more challenging than it used to be when the game first came out. Pretty sure your opponents get a sensor bonus if you bump it up to "Realistic", among other things.
Also keep in mind that how fast you're moving on the campaign map when running into an enemy group transfers to the encounter part. Left & Right mouse buttons move you at different speeds on the campaign map. You ideally wanna be stopped on campaign map when an enemy runs into you, or running at the slow cruise speed at most. If you're holding down the full transit speed mouse button, they're gonna hear you first because you're pretty much deaf at that speed.
The LMB/RMB/Stopped map speed thing caused problems for a lot of people learning the game. It got me for awhile. Couldn't figure out why I was starting my encounters blazing along at 25-30 knots until I looked it up and discovered the other campaign map speeds. You still have to hit (Shift+S) to enable silent running as soon as you spawn in to the combat side.
Currently 1/2 price on Steam
I've added on my wishlist, it seams to be quite a learning curve on this one.
It sounds positive, is there a lot of replay-ability in it?
That's pretty much a remaster of Microprose's Redstorm Rising. A must-by for anybody who ever had some sort of affinity with nuke boats, and very replayable (encounters & tactical situations change all the time). The original gameplay was top notch, and was fully recreated here. To be enjoyed with little concern and restrain.
Quote from: mirth on July 27, 2018, 01:03:11 PM
It is very impressive how much they keep adding to the game
https://steamcommunity.com/games/541210/announcements/detail/1690421280631840291
Yes. I'm happy I gave this developer some money.
Might buy the soundtrack just because.
Thank you ;D :bd:
I played a lot of this when released.
'sup fellas. Bumping an old thread.
I was just browsing around today and came across a mod for Cold Waters called Epic Mod. I downloaded it and I'm going to go ahead and recommend you take a look at what this team is doing with the game. It's still the same general gameplay, but they've really added to the database and made some tweaks to performance to make it more realistic or difficult.
The team is Russian, and a lot of the game is still in Russian which makes playing a few of the campaigns...challenging (unless you read Russian).
They've created a world map so that instead of just North Atlantic or SCS you can do missions over the whole world. This is still in Russian. However, you can create single missions with the world map and it greatly enlarges the playing area for tactical engagements. I'm just starting to play with this, but initial thoughts are that it is very interesting and has potential.
And, of course, they've added a crap ton of new submarines and surface units. Playing the surface units is sort of...well, interesting and fun for a while, but without being able to control more than one ship, or aircraft, it's kind of pointless IMO. Unless that's an option in Russian that I can't figure out.
If this link works, it will take you to the Steam discussion with a link to the latest version of the mod. There is also an English translation for the voices, and some of the campaigns, but not everything.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/541210/discussions/0/1751275687420609423/?ctp=4
And, I know you're not going to read this, Mirth, but sorry for being a dick in my reply on the last page (two years ago, but still). :hug:
I bought this on sale because it looked good and made me think Harpoon "light". Still have not played.
I was trying to find a good YouTube video to link, but they're all not quite what I'm looking for. There aren't all that many.
The thing is, you have to go into it recognizing that it's not a super-deep sim like DCS. There's some depth, but it's more lite and gamey than a true sim. I find it refreshing sometimes; it's fun to just get in there, drive beautiful subs, and blow things up.
I'll post this video below, but it's super long and in Russian. If you sort of just click through it a bit you'll kind of get the gist of what the mod offers. Install was incredibly painless; it uses JGME so it's easy to install and remove.
Looks pretty interesting. How much control do you have with the surface ships and can you launch ASW helos ?
This is the mod I am using : https://github.com/CaptainX3/CW-Playable-Subs
It includes the New Playable Subs Mod, extra missions and campaigns and Playable Surface Ships.
I haven't played around with the surface ships but this is how they describe it :
Special Notes About Playable Surface Ships
Since the game is not designed for playable surface ships, we've had to make some special modifications to make them work properly and to make them fun to play. Below are some important special notes about them.
The playable surface ships can only be used in the single missions and campaigns specifically designed for them. This is because we must set the starting depth for the ships to 0, otherwise they'd implode as soon as the encounter begins. This is why they are not available in the Quick Mission editor.
As soon as you enter an encounter, all other surface ships in the area will instantly detect you. Submarines will generally take longer to pick you up, unless they raise their radar or periscope.
The only weapons available for surface ships are the same as submarines: torpedoes and missiles. It is not possible to make their guns work because there is no coding in the game to allow a player to target a gun, and the game AI apparently won't work in any way on a player controlled ship.
Although most of the playable ships do carry aircraft, there is no way that we can find to make these work for the player.
We have not yet found any way to make the ship's anti-air defenses work at all, meaning you're going to take hits from enemy missiles almost 100% of the time (hence the massive tonnage mentioned below).
All of the playable surface ships have been given a massive (obviously unrealistic) tonnage rating, in order to give them enough hitpoints to survive long enough to be enjoyable. This is especially important because torpedoes are much harder to evade than in a submarine, almost impossible really.
They have also been given an unusually low self noise rating, to keep them from being instantly detected by every submarine in the area. If you keep your speed low enough, you might be able to evade detection by submarines for at least a little while.
The playable ships have also been given special versions of their real life sonar suites that are MUCH more sensitive than anything else in the game. This will give the player a fighting chance of actually picking up the quieter enemy submarines, otherwise you'd be stuck in the encounter forever.
All of the ships have also been given weapon loadouts that aren't actually used in real life. This is to allow them to fight properly, and give them proper loadouts when we release the playable surface ship campaigns. In addition, they do have wire guidance on their torpedoes to make things a little bit easier.
Cold Waters is 50% Off on GOG right now.
https://www.gog.com/game/cold_waters
I read quite a few posts about the AI allegedly cheating in this game a couple of years back. Is this still the case?
Anyone?
EDIT: Never mind, too late, it's not on sale any more.
I don't know if cheating is the right word. The only time I felt like it may have been 'cheating' is they were able to get a snap shot off instantly upon detection. It's been a month or two since I played, but I don't even recall the enemy having 'borg' spotting where once one platform sees you, all of them do. Nearly all other wargames do that - even the pinnacle of serious modern naval simulations CMO does that.
Maybe someone else can recall something else, but CW is one of the few really genuinely tense games where I did not say "Bullshit! There's no way..." and quit. All my mistakes were painfully, obviously my own.
I haven't experienced anything that made me feel like the game AI is cheating.
Quote from: hellfish6 on April 20, 2020, 03:24:28 PM
I don't know if cheating is the right word. The only time I felt like it may have been 'cheating' is they were able to get a snap shot off instantly upon detection. It's been a month or two since I played, but I don't even recall the enemy having 'borg' spotting where once one platform sees you, all of them do. Nearly all other wargames do that - even the pinnacle of serious modern naval simulations CMO does that.
Not to derail the thread, but really? CMO does that? Even where there is no datalink?
I don't think CMO does that. It simulates an OODA loop, so the weapons require an amount of time before employment. Increased crew proficiency decreases the employment time.
Quote from: Tripoli on April 20, 2020, 06:40:31 PM
I don't think CMO does that. It simulates an OODA loop, so the weapons require an amount of time before employment. Increased crew proficiency decreases the employment time.
This. And CMO simulates a proper C3 chain, so it depends on the tech of the AI (datalink, good coverage of radar assets, etc) how quickly information passes around.
There definitely is no 'borg spotting'.
Man, thank God. I was about to lose my faith in humanity.
Quote from: Yskonyn on April 21, 2020, 01:06:41 AM
Quote from: Tripoli on April 20, 2020, 06:40:31 PM
I don't think CMO does that. It simulates an OODA loop, so the weapons require an amount of time before employment. Increased crew proficiency decreases the employment time.
This. And CMO simulates a proper C3 chain, so it depends on the tech of the AI (datalink, good coverage of radar assets, etc) how quickly information passes around.
There definitely is no 'borg spotting'.
That's not totally true, and CMO by default does
not simulate a proper C3 chain.
First of all, I say this as a massive fan and early beta tester for CMANO (the original) and a still massive fan of CMO today with thousands of hours in the games.
Here's an example of how borg spotting works in CMANO/CMO:
You might be trying to target a ZSU-23-4 site. You don't know exactly where it is, so you send off a spotter. Let's say it's a UAV. The UAV finds the ZSU, and now every asset that is on the same side of that UAV or is set as an ally of that UAV that is in range can immediately target that ZSU, even though only one UAV has eyes on. The Virginia-class SSN in the Red Sea can fire a Tomahawk at that ZSU site if it's Tehran. There's no chain of command from the UAV operator, though his local ops center/watch floor, to a targeting shop to the submarine's fleet watch floor, to the fleet commander for authorization, to the message traffic and into the SSN skipper's hands. None of those loopholes are modeled - and I'm not even sure if it's possible to do it without heavy LUA scripting. As far as that sub skipper is concerned, he has a live UAV feed and a mensurated, valid Tomahawk target. Ditto, an Osa-class PTG can fire it's ASHMs against a target an allied fishing vessel spotted 40nm away with no need to have spotted it with its own sensors.
Likewise, once a radar detects a target, almost any shooter in range is immediately aware of that target as well and can/will engage it based on player-editable doctrine, the shooter's own capability (does it need a fire control radar, and can the fire control radar see the target, and is the target in range of the weapon?) and OODA loop limitations.
CMO also has target fade - if you don't have a target continuously spotted (via radar, EO, eyeballs, sonar, etc.) the quality of the target fades over time, eventually to the point where you can't target it at all because your area of uncertainty becomes too big.
Now CMO has, over the years, added some mitigating mechanics. No longer can F-15As shoot AMRAAMs at targets the F-15 hasn't detected with onboard systems. Only a handful of platforms have the combined engagement capability (I think most of them are USN platforms) that let, say, an Aegis DDG shoot an SM-6 missile to hit a target on the other side of a mountain range via E-2D radar. Likewise, SARH missiles require the shooter to maintain a lock on the target the whole way in, and the game has added code that ensures that the aircraft/shooter will almost always do this unless under duress - and even do off-boresight/notch guidance.
Additionally, there is the OODA loop, which is modeled at the individual platform level (individual with a rifle or DDG or fighter aircraft) modified by skill level the scenario editor sets. This is completely different from what borg spotting in and generally doesn't affect spotting at all - it only affects how quickly a platform can engage a target.
Edit: Dmitris, the lead CMO dev, is on this forum. I'd love it if he could explain what exactly CMO does and does not do w/r/t spotting. Maybe our definitions of what 'borg spotting' is are not constant. Best I can say is that as long as one of my sensors can see a target in CMO, I can kill that target with any valid weapon system in range regardless of communications or chains of command (certainly not C3 factors). The AI can and will do it to you too.
Been exploring Dangerous Waters a bit, found a mod at sub sim that adds all kinds of content for the sim. Surface and subs playable from Russia, China, Nato, Aussies and more. Even ASW in a Russian Bear bomber. It seems that this mods focus is for weekly subsim MP matches for diehards, much like the weekly matches that go on in the Steel Beasts community. For MP balance some of the non western platforms might have better capabilities for parity with their western counterparts. You can play SP campaigns and missions with the mod, just have to figure out how to make the eastern platforms perform more as they do in RL or in the 80s at least.
I'd probably dive in deep, but you have to apply a fix to get it to run on windows 10, then I have to find a way for it to run on a full screen monitor at full res cause 1020 x 768 wont cut it.
Graphics are definitely dated, but your staring at sonar displays most of the time, don't think the graphics will matter.
What is the mod?
Some solid misinformation on CMO going on. CMO absolutely does show a detailed kill chain with limited borg spotting. But only if the scenario designer puts it in. Whether its using disabled comms, siloed organizations, or managed side-switching, all the tools are there.
I have built scenarios where recon flights take off and no one sees what they saw until the return to base. Its easier than most people think.
Quote from: RyanE on April 26, 2020, 12:03:24 PM
Some solid misinformation on CMO going on. CMO absolutely does show a detailed kill chain with limited borg spotting. But only if the scenario designer puts it in. Whether its using disabled comms, siloed organizations, or managed side-switching, all the tools are there.
I have built scenarios where recon flights take off and no one sees what they saw until the return to base. Its easier than most people think.
Where have you been hiding? Good to see you.
Still check in now and then. But a regular.
Quote from: Toonces on April 26, 2020, 11:15:16 AM
What is the mod?
It's called Reinforce Alert or RA. You can find it at the subsim forum for dangerous waters.
RyanE wasn't hiding. We just couldn't see him until one of spotted him first. :P
For Cold Waters and Jive Turkey fans: Jive Turkey received an audio clip from divers on a Bahamas scuba trip who encountered active sonar. They asked him to analyze it. He concluded that the divers were near an ASW exercise, probably taking place in AUTEC. It was fascinating to me to follow along as he explained his analysis using Adobe Audition.
That was really neat. I wouldn't have posted that analysis to YouTube, though.
'sup Team.
I'm digging back into Cold Waters again, sort of seeing what the mod possibilities are and checking out some of the stuff the community has done with the game while we await Seapower.
I just recently downloaded a mod: Epic Mod 2.27. This appears to have a couple of campaigns where you can play as a Russian submarine against U.S. assets. The creator has translated the place names and other text into English which makes it much more playable now.
The mod is in two parts: 2.27 and then 2.27 Tweaks.
I'm just getting into it now, and hope to have some impressions up later this week. I continue to believe that this game could have been pushed so much further. I'm sure hoping Seapower is that push.
Epic Mod 2.27: https://coldhunter.ru/
2.27 Tweaks: https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=5738
You have to be logged on to Subsim.com to download that second one.
Awesome...the language issue was holding me back. Glad to see it's been translated. Will probably get it now and eagerly await your impressions!
Ok, not sure what happened...I had a very long feedback post all tee'd up and for some reason my browser fully crashed. Grrr....
So I'm going to try to recreate as much as I can remember.
I've spent a great deal more time with the Epic Mod 2.7 and feel I can provide some feedback on it now.
First, more than anything else, you have to keep in mind that this mod is essentially one person's idea of more "realistic." I dug around in the .dat files and much of the game's parameters can be edited with a simple text editor, so things like sonar performance, entity noise levels, etc. are all very much accessible and editable. There are a lot of new models and weapons in the mod, and I think these are accumulated from the community. But when determining the source levels of, say, a Churchill class submarine, it's very much up to the modder's interpretation.
Second, the game is fundamentally the same gameplay as stock. The UI is generally the same, and you're still going to find yourself in a submarine doing various missions (there are surface vessels available for play, but only single ships, you can't command a task force of ships and I find these a novel experience but ultimately pretty unfulfilling). However, when you hop into a modded sub, say an Oscar I, you will find yourself in a submarine with different capabilities and limitations, weapons that behave differently or with different firing parameters. This offers new approaches to the same problems.
Third, the mod offers changes in the frequency of missions, patrols zones, composition of various groups, etc. It's the same game, but you'll find new and different strike groups, get tasked in a more varied manner, and so on.
Where the mod is interesting is when playing a different sub. I've been playing through a 1984 campaign in an Oscar I and the submarine's capabilities and weapon load offers unique opportunities for gameplay. For example, the Oscar I carries 24 anti-ship missiles in its VLS tubes in addition to a very large internal weapon load. In one instance I stalked a U.S. Surface Action Group, opened up to about 15 miles and then launched a devastating BOL attack with that huge VLS load on the group. While you can do this in an LA for example, the shear amount of metal I could launch in one attack offered a different attack. Further, with more internal load, I can patrol for much longer without having to return to base to reload.
The mod still suffers from poor english translations in some parts. You get the idea of what's being communicated, but the grammar can be a bit of a mess at times. Not a show-stopper, but something to keep in mind.
The mod's author is still updating the mod, making tweaks. This is nice in one sense, but on the other it demonstrates that there are going to be some errors in the mod that may not be immediately apparent as they're under the hood.
I've found that weapons, in general, are not as lethal; you can't just lob off MK-48's and expect them to be the death ray they are in stock. Getting kills requires a bit more work.
Ultimately, I like the mod because it offers an opportunity to play new and different submarines that you just don't see very often like Swiftsure or Rubis classes on the NATO side, or various Russian subs.
I mentioned that I also browsed about in the data files of the game. In doing so, I'm very impressed by the detail that exists under the hood that just isn't necessarily apparent at superficial glance. Things like sink rates for countermeasures. The acoustic model is more complicated than I initially believed and it does appear that bottom bounce and convergence zone propagation paths are available. A casual player likely won't notice these details as opening to a CZ can be time-consuming and the game isn't going to tell you that's what's going on when you get a previously lost contact much farther away then you expected. I believe there is probably more complexity to this game than meets the eye.
This game continues to provide me a lot of entertainment, and it's my go-to game when I'm just not sure what else to play. I sometimes think that the developers did themselves a disservice by not explaining some of the under-the-hood detail within the game. Also, I suspect that the devs broke up and went the Seapower/War on the Sea route before they fully realized the potential of Cold Waters. Not abandoned; CW is a fully developed game. But it's very clear there is a lot more this game could have been pushed. I think Seapower is going to be the full realization of what CW could have been with time and DLCs.
Let me know if you guys have any questions. I'm in at about 110 hours and still nowhere near exhausting what's possible with this game.
Just bumping this thread for some screenshots. I'm playing Cold Waters on my laptop as the vanilla version with a Cold War 1990 campaign installed that I got from the Workshop. This guy did some really good work in creating patrol zones and in general making the game a bit more difficult. Re-load times are extended and things like submarine acceleration are also altered. I've had at least two missions where I must have popped into the tactical map with the target in a convergence zone because I can't explain any other reason why I had so much trouble keeping contact (and eventually lost it to my dismay).
In the first screenshots, I was hunting an Oscar II with a Victor escort. I spawned very close to the Victor and had to use some clever maneuvering and ultra-quiet running to get into his baffles and get off a shot. The Oscar took quite a long time to hunt down after that.
This is me in the LA, above the thermocline in a surface duct, rigged for ultra-quiet, and just barely keeping the noise below the Victor's passive detection threshold. This was some tense gameplay!
This was the next mission, hunting the cruise missile boat, in this case a Charlie II. You can see in the first screenshot my identification and opening maneuver. In the second I'm in his baffles setting up the shot. Pics are from the Charlie's POV.
Great shots Toonces. It does look tense. :hide:
Another bump to this thread to highlight a few updates/mods.
First, Epic Mod is up to 2.33fix3. I installed it last night and it has some interesting tweaks; of particular note the addition of SAMs to some Russian boats!
Second, I saw a mod I have not seen previously called DOT Mod. Current version is a beta 0.2. I haven't tried this mod yet but it seems they are taking a different approach than Epic, trying for more realism at the expense of fewer playable submarines, and some graphical changes or additions, new surface ships, etc. To be honest I don't know much more than that, but the feedback seems very positive.
Browsing the Subsim forums, and reading between the lines a bit, I'm getting the impression that the community might be somewhat fracturing between these two mods, kind of like Freefalcon and BMS Falcon. I hope that's not the case. Regardless, it's one or the other with these mods, they are not mutually supporting and only one can be used at a time.
Epic Mod: https://www.coldhunter.ru/en
Dot Mod: https://github.com/DotModGroup/ColdWaters-DotMod
(go to "Code" and click "download zip)
I installed DOT Mod (very easy with the automatic installer!) and gave it a try. Just quickly booted up a Russia 1984 campaign and there's an interesting RPG dynamic. Your player has both a rank and "prestige points" that restrict what submarine you can choose to start the campaign. Thus I ended up in a Whiskey class boat, first mission against a Perry frigate. I had a pretty good fight going until I imploded trying to go beneath 280m depth. I think this is a pretty neat idea to force players to get out of their comfort zone. I know Jive Turkey was playing a 1968 Russia campaign in a live stream using DOT Mod but I didn't have that campaign on mine. I might need to experiment to see how to find that one.
Another interesting dynamic with both Epic and Dot is a "request new boat" and "request retasking" so that the player doesn't appear to have to play the campaign using the same class of sub, and can get a different mission if the assigned mission either doesn't match their class of sub, or they just want to do something else. Pretty cool.
If you haven't looked at Cold Waters lately you might want to give it a try. The community is really doing some neat things with modding the sim. It's definitely not "dead."
I love the idea of this game. In practice, however, i simply cannot wrap my head around how to maneuver, remain undetected and fire a torpedo that has no guidance and still manage to hit a moving target. It is somewhat like golf. I just don't have the patience for it.
Unguided vs. guided weapons is a whole other beast. But I get what you're saying. I play Combat Mission and I have no idea what to do other than rush my troops straight at the enemy, shooting and throwing stuff. Ground warfare absolutely confounds me.
Quote from: Toonces on December 20, 2021, 06:50:47 PM
Unguided vs. guided weapons is a whole other beast. But I get what you're saying. I play Combat Mission and I have no idea what to do other than rush my troops straight at the enemy, shooting and throwing stuff. Ground warfare absolutely confounds me.
Hmmmmmm... This post gives me an interesting idea... I'm going to post about it in a separate thread.
Toonces...have you checked out the DotMod for Cold Waters? Came across it in my Youtube feed and it looks awesome.
Currently $7.99 (historical low) at Gog for the next ~47 hours.
https://www.gog.com/game/cold_waters?pp=2863d7ae605104eeef364e3f164d3404e20f680c
Hey just seeing your post, JH. Yes, I'm actually using Dot Mod right now. It makes the game considerably more difficult!
So I've been in a sub simming mood lately and have been spending more time with Cold Water (Dot Mod) and SH4 and I have something to say, which is this:
We need more games/sims like Cold Waters.
I really should make a whole new post for this.
To me, Cold Waters is almost a perfect game. If I could change it, I'd expand it a bit to the operational level, give the player a bit more fidelity in maneuvering other forces...pretty much something like Seapower is likely to be (provided it allows the player to drill down to player-controlled submarines).
I have had SH3 and 4 for forever, but really haven't spent too much time with them. But I'm in the mood, and so have been really trying to get into SH4 lately. Here's the thing: I love the part when I'm in my patrol area and can start hunting bad guys. I hate, HATE, the transit to the patrol area. It reminds me of the pterodactyl things in Morrowind; a nuisance that really doesn't add anything to the pleasure of the game. I'm talking about the incessant air patrols that inevitably detect your submarine on its transit to wherever you're going. Maybe I'm missing something; maybe this is really important at some point. I always start at the 1942 campaign, and it's always the same. Flank at night, submerge and wait during day, rinse repeat....is there no way we can just streamline this nonsense? The getting from point A to B is not the fun or even interesting part...unless I'm missing something. A much, much more interesting dynamic would be to put me in control of the submarine fleet, make me SUBPAC, and allow me to direct strategy for the submarine war, and drill into the tactical picture when contact happens!
This is what makes Cold Waters a better sim IMO. It dispenses with the nonsense, and gets you, the player, into the most interesting part of the game. You can crank out a few engagements in a night. Dangerous Waters...it's awesome, but I feel like Cold Waters just distills the details into what you, a commander, would need to know. When I play it, I feel like I'm making commander-level decisions, not micro-managing every detail of a submarine. Cold Waters still makes concessions to gameplay, and Dot Mod makes it both "more gamey" and "less gamey" in ways (adding a prestige system=gamey; making sensors/weapons more realistically behaved=less gamey). But at the end of the day I'm having FUN. And I get the flavor. If I could change anything on Cold Waters, it would be more robust environmentals (they're in there, but could be expanded since the environment is crucial to tactical ASW), and friendly forces. Any combined arms would be welcome.
I tried the RN campaign, which is prestige-restricted to the Oberon (diesel) SS class, and it's virtually impossible IMO. A diesel submarine has its roles, even in 1984, but Cold Waters is not set up for that. A combined arms approach...it might work. I sure hope Seapower addresses this.
Very interesting Toonces. I played SH 4 a lot some time back and I also didn't like the transit thing because of what you just said but also because I tended to get distracted by the pretty map and swing-by some little island or harbor for a look and before I knew it, I'd been playing for hours and had seen nothing and done nothing. The game was a huge time sink for me even speeded-up. But what it did, it did very well, the tense minutes of stalking a convoy and the pay-off of my torps hitting home.
I would agree with you toonces, transiting to patrol areas in sub games can be boring. The idea of spicing it up with being the subpac commander and directing the campaign then jumping into a sub when contact is made is something I've always wanted in a game. War on the sea but with a good interface and directed to sub combat.
I downloaded the CBS radio mod from Captain Midnight for SH4. Makes the transit much more enjoyable as you try to tune in various radio stations and listen to broadcasts from the time. It can be frustrating during days when you're submerged in order to avoid air patrols as the signal is much weaker so you don't pick up as many transmissions.
I feel you Toonces (no in the way Gus feels people don't worry :Dreamer: ) but allow me to disagree on one small point. In my opinion, what you describe doesn't make Cold Waters a better sim. But specifically, and arguably, it makes Cold Waters a better game. Which is absolutely not a bad thing - but not a good thing either - just, well, a thing, as far as design in concerned.
The gaming experience is described IMHO by the ability it has to mix realistic elements with non-realistic ones to optimize user experience by making sure action & decision are left with as little waiting time in-between, if said waiting time adds nothing or little to said experience (which is the case here, considering it's not an horror game or something where moments of calm actually have a large impact on the game's natural, self-evolving narrative).
The sim experience on the other hand, is all about making sure that as much of the real elements get in despite the limitations of computer. As such, when Silent Hunter 1 came out, it was clearly a better sim than Silent Service II, yet it wasn't necessarily a better game.
The "game" part is all about accommodating realism so that gameplay comes first. The "sim" part is all about accommodating the limits of the medium so that realism comes first. Different goals. And some games hold one or the other more or less as the core of their design. We as an audience can stand somewhere in the middle, and I for one enjoy both, but within the realm of their own rules. Same issues will apply to our game, and that's why we're doing our best to offer options in regard of time acceleration efficiency & software optim/stability, precisely because we don't want realism to stand in the way of fun whenever a choice can be made by player agency.
^ Well said. I should have been clearer on the distinction between sim and game.
Ultimately, what I'm advocating for is more "game" and less "sim" in more games. Simulation has its place - to a point. Past that point it adds (to me) baggage I have to wade through to get to the good parts.
There is a balance.
I don't know if you can even reasonably call Cold Waters a sim. But it's a great game, with just enough sim elements to make it serious.
These are, of course, very personal tastes.
Well, there's time compression on sub sims like SH3/4 and Uboat. By 1942, you might have to deal with air patrols a lot if you're near coastlines, less so out in the briny deep. That's the shift from "the Hunter" to "the Hunted", even in terms of that board-game system.
I'd say pick earlier years and, especially for SH, different patrol areas. Do the Thousand Mile War in the North Pacific or something like that. ("Wolfpack" ran a campaign of that earlier this year.)
Quote from: Toonces on August 21, 2023, 12:31:04 PM^ Well said. I should have been clearer on the distinction between sim and game.
Ultimately, what I'm advocating for is more "game" and less "sim" in more games. Simulation has its place - to a point. Past that point it adds (to me) baggage I have to wade through to get to the good parts.
There is a balance.
I don't know if you can even reasonably call Cold Waters a sim. But it's a great game, with just enough sim elements to make it serious.
These are, of course, very personal tastes.
I want a game to hold my hand while it fools me into thinking I'm brilliantly accounting for all the little details myself.
I'm with Glen55. And then it tells me how great I am after I make that routine torpedo shot followed by thanking me for letting it lose to me. Is that too much to ask for?
I frankly think we have enough hardcore sims and not enough games with sim elements, so I find Cold Waters even with a hardcore Mod like DotMod refreshing.
Now if only Microprose can do the same with flight sims. I've got what I need in hardcore in Great Battles and DCS. Give me some Aces of the Pacific/Europe please.