Ah, Finland. Oh, dear Stalin!
There are three "Winter Wars" to be had on Steam. I looked at two of them and took the area-movement one with nice little airplanes and cards for Vodka and Night Attack. Things went badly for me and the Red Army. Lots of ambushes and snowstorms and getting lost on the way to the field kitchens. A quick Night Attack with lots of Vodka almost turned the tide. But no. Maybe some screen shots some time soon.
PS: why do people think the Russo-Finish War of 1939-1940 is an "obscure topic"?...there are always plenty of pretty good games about it. Definitely good for simulating a lot. And generally pretty fun.
I very much enjoyed the Winter War scenarios in Order of Battle.
Quote from: Gusington on May 05, 2020, 02:59:23 PM
I very much enjoyed the Winter War scenarios in Order of Battle.
It's hard to go wrong with a good Winter War scenario. Here is the opening of the third week on the central axis:
Quote from: MengJiao on May 05, 2020, 03:04:32 PM
It's hard to go wrong with a good Winter War scenario. Here is the opening of the third week on the central axis:
I did the whole war (14 turns: 14 weeks), I drove the commies against the Finnish AI. As you might expect, a little Soviet sneakiness on the central axis leads to a devastating defeat for the Finns. The developer remarked in the steam discussions that beefing up the Finns was going to be necessary and making the Mannerheim Line less strong and forcing the Russians to stack less up north was a good idea.
Here's the situation late in the game between Heilsinki and Leningrad (note part of the Mannerheim Line is still holding and in fact most of the Russians close to the Finnish Capital came via the central axis):
Definitely interested in picking this one up. I put a good bit of time into Wars Across the World, but not much into the Spanish Civil War iteration.
I agree the Winter War and "Continuation" war are hardly "obscure," but I think when people say that, they're really saying it "lacks appeal to mainstream audiences" (with countless D-Day media coming to mind as the opposite of that).
Meng, what's your take on how this game compares to other similar Winter War titles?
^With that said - are there any good Winter War movies?
Red Dawn? Admittedly, it's not Finland, but, it is Communists and it is winter. Plus, the cast is pretty spectacular. Betcha forgot Powers Boothe was in it.
Quote from: Gusington on May 06, 2020, 07:34:41 PM
^With that said - are there any good Winter War movies?
Really?
Only one of the greatest war movies ever made. Possibly the greatest. I have owned it for a long long time.
I did not forget Powers Boothe was in Red Dawn because I just watched it like 3 weeks ago! Love that movie.
Never heard of 1989's Winter War. I must have been watching Glory instead.
Quote from: Gusington on May 06, 2020, 08:20:01 PM
I did not forget Powers Boothe was in Red Dawn because I just watched it like 3 weeks ago! Love that movie.
Never heard of 1989's Winter War. I must have been watching Glory instead.
Watch it Gus. It's amazing. A fairly large portion of the Finnish Army participated as extras and they used period correct tanks and planes in practical effects.
Quote from: MetalDog on May 06, 2020, 07:50:25 PM
Red Dawn? Admittedly, it's not Finland, but, it is Communists and it is winter. Plus, the cast is pretty spectacular. Betcha forgot Powers Boothe was in it.
I forgot. My mental world was revamped by
Deadwood
Quote from: al_infierno on May 06, 2020, 05:22:38 PM
Definitely interested in picking this one up. I put a good bit of time into Wars Across the World, but not much into the Spanish Civil War iteration.
I agree the Winter War and "Continuation" war are hardly "obscure," but I think when people say that, they're really saying it "lacks appeal to mainstream audiences" (with countless D-Day media coming to mind as the opposite of that).
Meng, what's your take on how this game compares to other similar Winter War titles?
Apparently it is a different version of the WAW game engine put out under a different set of logos and it doesn't interface with the other WAW scenarios. It looks better overall and runs more smoothly and coherently for the most part, but has some odd bugs. It is still an early access game and definitely has some odd problems.
Winter war is a sweet movie, you can find it on youtube if you don't mind subtitles. I actually prefer das boot and Stalingrad in native language with English subtitles.
Wow, I almost thought you were kidding SirAndrew.
That film looks incredible, thanks for linking it!
I very much prefer watching foreign WWII films in the original language, especially an Eastern Front (or tangentially related in this case) film since changing everything to English destroys a huge part of what makes WWII aesthetically interesting. I can't imagine wanting to have Come and See dubbed into English, for example.
Unfortunately, the movie with English subtitles is not on youtube that I can find.
Found it on Ebay (last copy) with English subtitles for less than $20 delivered.
Love Finland. Been there 3 times. Hate the commies. Probably will enjoy the movie.
Not a movie, but a decent show from the Battlefield series on the Winter War.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4hb5nWVxjE
And then the sequel, sort of!
Wow nice.
Quote from: Gusington on May 06, 2020, 09:37:00 PM
Wow, I almost thought you were kidding SirAndrew.
How could you think such a thing when I'm so consistently dead serious all the time? O:-)
8)
Quote from: MengJiao on May 06, 2020, 08:44:05 PM
Quote from: al_infierno on May 06, 2020, 05:22:38 PM
Definitely interested in picking this one up. I put a good bit of time into Wars Across the World, but not much into the Spanish Civil War iteration.
I agree the Winter War and "Continuation" war are hardly "obscure," but I think when people say that, they're really saying it "lacks appeal to mainstream audiences" (with countless D-Day media coming to mind as the opposite of that).
Meng, what's your take on how this game compares to other similar Winter War titles?
Apparently it is a different version of the WAW game engine put out under a different set of logos and it doesn't interface with the other WAW scenarios. It looks better overall and runs more smoothly and coherently for the most part, but has some odd bugs. It is still an early access game and definitely has some odd problems.
The basic WAW machinery seems to work fairly well:
https://www.wargamer.com/articles/wars-across-the-world-avalon-digital/
And there are methods for editing/modding (see details above for example). The "scenarios" (really big mini-games) however are a really mixed bag. Armada 1588 is a joke at best so I might try doing an Armada scenario from scratch. Other "scenarios" are quite good, which leads to the question == what the hell is the Winter War based on WAW on steam? Why is it a separate version that doesn't link up with the other WAW components on Steam? Very strange.
Quote from: MengJiao on May 08, 2020, 06:32:46 AM
Quote from: MengJiao on May 06, 2020, 08:44:05 PM
Quote from: al_infierno on May 06, 2020, 05:22:38 PM
Definitely interested in picking this one up. I put a good bit of time into Wars Across the World, but not much into the Spanish Civil War iteration.
I agree the Winter War and "Continuation" war are hardly "obscure," but I think when people say that, they're really saying it "lacks appeal to mainstream audiences" (with countless D-Day media coming to mind as the opposite of that).
Meng, what's your take on how this game compares to other similar Winter War titles?
Apparently it is a different version of the WAW game engine put out under a different set of logos and it doesn't interface with the other WAW scenarios. It looks better overall and runs more smoothly and coherently for the most part, but has some odd bugs. It is still an early access game and definitely has some odd problems.
The basic WAW machinery seems to work fairly well:
https://www.wargamer.com/articles/wars-across-the-world-avalon-digital/
And there are methods for editing/modding (see details above for example). The "scenarios" (really big mini-games) however are a really mixed bag. Armada 1588 is a joke at best so I might try doing an Armada scenario from scratch. Other "scenarios" are quite good, which leads to the question == what the hell is the Winter War based on WAW on steam? Why is it a separate version that doesn't link up with the other WAW components on Steam? Very strange.
Still griping:
Okay so...the problem with gaming the Armada of 1588 is that sure, by the summer of 1588 with a weird plan and a mass of transports, things were going to be highly problematic for the Armada and Parma's force.
You really need to allow the Spanish to start much earlier and also simulate the workable parts of the Spanish forces (for example the Portuguese galleons) and their very good Admiral:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%81lvaro_de_Baz%C3%A1n,_1st_Marquess_of_Santa_Cruz
Quote from: Gusington on May 07, 2020, 06:50:10 PM
Wow nice.
In the Winter War game, beefed up Fins iteration, the Finns have more planes and replacements. Those Blenheims pack a wallop:
Quote from: SirAndrewD on May 06, 2020, 08:12:19 PM
Quote from: Gusington on May 06, 2020, 07:34:41 PM
^With that said - are there any good Winter War movies?
Really?
Only one of the greatest war movies ever made. Possibly the greatest. I have owned it for a long long time.
I haven't tried the game yet - and it looks really neat! - but as a Finn I can certainly comment on Finnish war movies out there.
To begin with, I'd definitively agree that "Talvisota", or Winter War from 1989 remains the definitive war movie, it still looks rather good despite at times showing its age and low(ish) budget. A village from the Finnish rural bible belt area going to war. If you can get your hands on a region free 4K restored Blu-ray you can certainly spend your money way worse. If you don't mind subtitles, that is.
The recent "Tuntemato sotilas", or Unknown Soldier, as the publisher titled the author's (a veteran himself) simple original title of "A War Novel", is the closest to match it. It's been filmed three times, the book is our "From Here to Eternity", in a way. This is available in Amazon Prime, as the movie version (https://www.amazon.com/Soldier-Aero-Aho/dp/B07NLM5F2X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=EBAYN8C7BCGQ&dchild=1&keywords=unknown+soldier&qid=1589292134&s=instant-video&sprefix=unknown+sol%2Cinstant-video%2C249&sr=1-1). Prime lists its running time at 3 hrs, which seems to indicate it is the longer version, there was a shorter, international version too, which I prefer as a movie as it stays more focused following Cpl Rokka's warpath. The version to look for is the five part TV-series, as that allows more time for all the characters to become alive. So if there is an option, grab that one instead. Amazon.com only seems to have a Region 2 (https://www.amazon.com/Unknown-Soldier-TV-Serie-Blu-ray/dp/B07X2M38R6/ref=sr_1_7?crid=5VYUM48APA4T&dchild=1&keywords=unknown+soldier&qid=1589292334&s=movies-tv&sprefix=unknown+%2Caps%2C248&sr=1-7) (Europe) version, unfortunately.
Here's the UK trailer with subtitles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmhpUXaOwZw
Next, I'd actually visit our Estonian friends south of the Gulf, with the excellent "1944" depicting the tragic faith of a small nation caught between to diabolical regimes. The movie works rather well especially at times when it shows Estonians at both sides of the front line: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDMzeKymx78
Back to Finnish movies, I'd list the moody "Rukajärven tie", Road to Lake Rukajärvi, or, iditiotically: The Ambush, as my third favorite. It depicts Ltn Perkoila's recon platoon doing what recce does on the 1941 advance in Norhthern Finland. Ltn and Mrs Perkoila, a lotta auxiliary getting caught in the front where his hubby (Peter Franzen of HBO's The Vikings fame) fights are played by a real life couple too, and perhaps instead of a pure war movie this is rather a movie of people at war. Nah, it is a war movie. Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEQJwlQ1DGM
Then, an (even) small(er) budget films, depicting the part the Swedish speaking minority played at war: "Etulinjan edessä", At the Front of the Front Lines (or something like that): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgfcPzoAIfo
Then there's the "Tali-Ihantala 1944", a movie everyone here wanted to be great, and it sucked. It is not a movie, but plays rather as re-enactments of four, five key battles at Karelian front in 1944. All the gear is immaculate, as is the case typically in Finnish War movies. The true stars of this movie are the still working WW2 tanks from the local Armour Museum: a few Stug-IIIs, T-34s, Kv-1s, even a SU-155.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9IEQYlpFlQ
It seems that movie has also been marketed under name of "Battle for Finland". Meh. Here's one of the Stug-III sequences, so maybe just watch this and save your money: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtZBlvvoLdc
There's a good few black/white movies, some rather nice, but I won't list them.
^That is some list right there, thanks!
Quote from: Gusington on May 12, 2020, 10:12:03 AM
^That is some list right there, thanks!
I always appreciate when people come up with lists like this so hopefully there were some new gems for us groggies there. I had a few hours to myself yesterday and watched the Estonian made "1944" again. A great watch it is.
Oops, it is available at Amazon Prime (https://www.amazon.com/1944-Marko-Leht/dp/B074HN1J8K/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1LGT1ZVR6CVIV&dchild=1&keywords=1944+movies+prime&qid=1589373421&s=instant-video&sprefix=1944%2Cinstant-video%2C252&sr=1-1). Recommended viewing :bd:
Edit2: Apparently only available with an awful dubbing job to English.
HA dubbing. Why not just caption it?
One to ignore (IMO) is titled "1944: the Final Defence". I managed at 10 minutes of it.
Quote from: Father Ted on May 13, 2020, 01:02:45 PM
One to ignore (IMO) is titled "1944: the Final Defence". I managed at 10 minutes of it.
Wow, yet another marketing name for Tali Ihantala 1944 / Battle for Finland. Agreed, a film of five reenactments, put together and marketed as a movie. It is a great shame, given the period gear they had at their disposal. Case in point is the FW-190 full sized replica they managed go borrow - and show it for a full five seconds or something like that. To film's credit, unfortunately the senior director Lindman died apparently at quite an early stage, that might explain why this plays more like some sort of documentary.
To make up for your pain, here's a filming of the filming piece with two working Stug-IIIs driving around. What cool AFVs they are.
https://youtu.be/WnJvo1RTlmY
Quote from: MengJiao on May 08, 2020, 06:32:46 AM
what the hell is the Winter War based on WAW on steam? Why is it a separate version that doesn't link up with the other WAW components on Steam? Very strange.
Hi All,
The Winter War game is based on a new engine, called SGS (Strategy Game Engine) and you can see my website for it here: https://strategygamestudio.com/ (https://strategygamestudio.com/)
To cut a long story short, I acquired a license of the WAW engine to get the base behaviour, but I changed 70 to 100% of things in the movement and combat system, and also added a bunch of new features.
So WAW games and this title are NOT at all compatible, even if you can find here and there some resemblance. Those are two different games.
WAW titles and the game itself is overall quite good and easy to play. Some scenarios are better than others for sure, but there is a lot to choose from, and good buy IMHO.
This new title,
Winter War, is a different stuff, and more detailed and engineered to represent mostly WW2 battles for now.
Glad you dropped by Philip!
Thanks for the clarification. Are you planning to use this customized engine for games set in other parts of the ETO? If so, will those link up with Winter War?
Quote from: Philthib on May 14, 2020, 05:06:40 AM
Quote from: MengJiao on May 08, 2020, 06:32:46 AM
what the hell is the Winter War based on WAW on steam? Why is it a separate version that doesn't link up with the other WAW components on Steam? Very strange.
Hi All,
The Winter War game is based on a new engine, called SGS (Strategy Game Engine) and you can see my website for it here: https://strategygamestudio.com/ (https://strategygamestudio.com/)
To cut a long story short, I acquired a license of the WAW engine to get the base behaviour, but I changed 70 to 100% of things in the movement and combat system, and also added a bunch of new features.
So WAW games and this title are NOT at all compatible, even if you can find here and there some resemblance. Those are two different games.
WAW titles and the game itself is overall quite good and easy to play. Some scenarios are better than others for sure, but there is a lot to choose from, and good buy IMHO.
This new title, Winter War, is a different stuff, and more detailed and engineered to represent mostly WW2 battles for now.
It's a fine game and works well (except for the Pursuit phase thing which I imagine is something from WAW that you might as well remove). I think just about any WWII operation could be beautifully covered by this system. Can you link campaigns? (ps -- I mean link scenarios into a campaign) I was thinking of doing the late-sixteenth-century alarms and entanglements and raids between England and Spain from say 1555 to 1603 as a series of campaigns...first maybe Phillip's idea of retaking England (of which he had just been King anyway), then some Revolts of the Netherlands and then some French Wars of Religion Part I and then some Piracy and then some More Piracy and then The Infernal Machine in Amsterdam and then Drake's Raids and then the Butterboat Bomb and other events
of 1588 and then some more Raids and religious Wars all to give the Spanish many chances to fix up their galleons (I guess that's almost 50 years and around 11-12 campaigns) plus the conquest of the Azores (1582):
"To begin with, I'd definitively agree that "Talvisota", or Winter War from 1989 remains the definitive war movie, it still looks rather good despite at times showing its age and low(ish) budget. A village from the Finnish rural bible belt area going to war. If you can get your hands on a region free 4K restored Blu-ray you can certainly spend your money way worse. If you don't mind subtitles, that is."
My copy arrived this week. This is a long, two DVD movie. A bunch of Finn's from a small farming town all get mobilized during the negotiations with the Commies after Stalin & Hitler killed Poland. Everyone in the unit knows each other and they are pretty much all of the males of military age in the area. This was a total mobilization.
The soldiers have such poor equipment that many have no uniforms. The training they had ranged from the poor (served in the 1918 revolt that tossed out Russian rule), to the average (national guard types) to the nonexistent. They get sent into a trench/minor fortification line in South Finland towards Leningrad.
This is a straight up, long term infantry combat with outnumbered, poorly equipped men fighting against human wave tactics backed by armor, artillery & airpower. The dumb ones die fast and slowly the veterans die off. Many just unlucky - although some snap during combat. The equipment and the number of people fighting are just amazing. The idiotic human wave tactics the commies were using were literally piling up bodies - but the firepower advantage kept wearing down the Finns.
The uniforms, acting, number of extras, and equipment are impressive. Watching Finns attempting to take out armor with Molotov cocktails was horrifying.
This is a very good movie as long as you don't mind watching something with subtitles.
Agreed Avery.
I love the movie so much. It's in my top five easily with Das Boot, Patton, Cross of Iron, Tora Tora Tora, Lion of the Desert.
Subtitles are a part, but no big deal. It's absolutely worth it.
I saw it the first time, getting it from a particularly weird Blockbuster that had odd films like I Bombed Pearl Harbor and Port Arthur.
I was speechless the first time I saw it, and it holds up today.
i bought the movie after reading about it here, was only $10. i'll have to watch again as the first time it didn't really click with me as much as others have described. it wasnt because of the subtitles, not sure what. but maybe i just wasn't in the right mood at the time.
Where the heck are y'all getting your copies?
Quote from: JasonPratt on May 24, 2020, 10:25:17 AM
Where the heck are y'all getting your copies?
Ebay, paid $10 and came within about 2-3 days. Brand new and shrink wrapped.
Quote from: JasonPratt on May 24, 2020, 10:25:17 AM
Where the heck are y'all getting your copies?
Got mine from ebay. Shipped from Korea brand new. Could choose between Korean or English subtitles.
Quote from: airboy on May 24, 2020, 10:57:15 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on May 24, 2020, 10:25:17 AM
Where the heck are y'all getting your copies?
Got mine from ebay. Shipped from Korea brand new. Could choose between Korean or English subtitles.
I can only imagine how the N Korean translation would go
^HAHA