I am Jesus (simulation)

Started by Emir Agic, December 08, 2019, 03:42:49 PM

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JasonPratt

Oh yeah, I'm all about that subjugation of other people, I do it all the time here. BOW, YIELD, KNEEL!  :coolsmiley:

...I wonder if that's in the simulation. Seems important.
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
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SirAndrewD

"These men do not want a happy ship. They are deeply sick and try to compensate by making me feel miserable. Last week was my birthday. Nobody even said "happy birthday" to me. Someday this tape will be played and then they'll feel sorry."  - Sgt. Pinback

SirAndrewD

Quote from: Tripoli on December 12, 2019, 06:27:00 PM

I'd be interested to hear your evidence to support this proposition over in the "Religion, Politics, and Flame Wars" board.   :)

Are we doing this?  I'm on Team Father Ted.
"These men do not want a happy ship. They are deeply sick and try to compensate by making me feel miserable. Last week was my birthday. Nobody even said "happy birthday" to me. Someday this tape will be played and then they'll feel sorry."  - Sgt. Pinback

JasonPratt

Quote from: Moreb on December 09, 2019, 08:53:04 PM
Touchy subject no doubt. I'll just add that I want to play as God of the Old Testament so I could smite some people.

Quite a number of games do that already; most notoriously the Dominions series which leans REAAAAALLLY HARD into the idea that a bunch of lesser lords and gods are trying to get themselves declared the Most High after the previous Most High retires/disappears/whatever. The lore of the in-game descriptions treats the previous Most High rather like the OT YHWH ADNY (without the better qualities that contributed to human social development down the ages).
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

Tripoli

Quote from: SirAndrewD on December 13, 2019, 01:29:24 AM
Quote from: Tripoli on December 12, 2019, 06:27:00 PM

I'd be interested to hear your evidence to support this proposition over in the "Religion, Politics, and Flame Wars" board.   :)

Are we doing this?  I'm on Team Father Ted.

I stand ready to debate the issue over at the RP&F board.  I believe the proposition for debate is "No religions are "true" or,  indeed, anything other than human constructs to erroneously explain the world and/or subjugate other humans." or some variation of that
"Do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends?" -Abraham Lincoln

JasonPratt

To be fair, FTed was dialing it down a notch with that phrasing; previously he had said,"Espousing a religion is essentially attempting to exploit a person's ignorance about the nature of the world in order to manipulate them for your own gain." No exceptions allowed.

His new phrasing allows that not every religious belief necessarily involves religious believers espousing a religion to attempt to subjugate other humans aka to manipulate other humans for our own gain. We might only be erroneously explaining the world (per the "and/or").

Amusingly, the new phraseology also technically allows that that a religion could be a human construct that CORRECTLY explains the world (while still being not true!?!), but in that case the correct explanation(s) would only be for the purpose of subjugating other humans.  ::)

Maybe he has Soviet science in mind as a religion? I've seen it described that way before, when atheists want to dismiss examples of monstrously tyrannical atheistic regimes: sure they're correct about explanations (by and large, such as atheism being true -- or ahem maybe not true, nothing other than a human construct though correctly explaining the world), but they're still a religion because they're using correct explanations about the world to subjugate other humans.


But I doubt he was thinking that precisely; I expect he was just trying to be nicer and more fair.  O:-)  O0

(Being a picky logician however with a primary hobby in metaphysics, I did notice.  ^-^ )

As Tripoli says, though, it's really a discussion for RFP. Ted might be taking the time to work up a proper opening argument to kick it off; but if not, you could, SirAndy!

Alternately, if I get bored on my other projects, I could restart an RFP thread based on my longform philosophical argument that I posted here back in 2015 -- I update it every few years and I've been thinking of giving it another repolish next year anyway. http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=14114.msg366954#msg366954
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

Father Ted

Sorry guys it's a bit of a hobby-horse of mine - shouldn't have brought it up on the on this bit of the forum.

@ Tripoli - I doubt there'd be much in the way of debate.  I've basically couched my view in those two statements.  But OK, I'll toddle down to RFP...

@Jason - I usually (as now) write these posts after a few drinks, so I'm not checking them for robust logic

@SirAndrewD - here's to kicking Bishop Brennan up the arse!

Sorry to whoever's thread this is.


SirAndrewD

Quote from: Tripoli on December 13, 2019, 08:55:06 AM
I stand ready to debate the issue over at the RP&F board.  I believe the proposition for debate is "No religions are "true" or,  indeed, anything other than human constructs to erroneously explain the world and/or subjugate other humans." or some variation of that

I think it's best for all of us to just let it go and be amused at the dumb game. 

If something in R&P ever got formed to that effect, there's no point.  No one can prove a negative.  In any debate the burden of proof is on the positive, not negative. 

I can't prove there are no unicorns.  The burden of proof lies on the positive assertion that there are unicorns.  If there are. then that's the basis. 

If Father Ted says no Religions are True, it's not his burden of proof.  He can not prove a negative, if it is a negative, clearly there is no proof.  The burden of proof must be on the alternate, that "There is a true Religion" and then they must provide direct, unarguable proof that their point is true. 

So, no I don't think it should go further based on the proposed criteria, nor do I think it should proceed at all.   We all are all over the place on religion, or lack thereof. 

I don't think some dumb game about walking on water should draw out our disagreements.
"These men do not want a happy ship. They are deeply sick and try to compensate by making me feel miserable. Last week was my birthday. Nobody even said "happy birthday" to me. Someday this tape will be played and then they'll feel sorry."  - Sgt. Pinback

Father Ted

Quote from: SirAndrewD on December 15, 2019, 01:06:21 AM

If Father Ted says no Religions are True, it's not his burden of proof.  He can not prove a negative, if it is a negative, clearly there is no proof.  The burden of proof must be on the alternate, that "There is a true Religion" and then they must provide direct, unarguable proof that their point is true. 


Jeez (ahem)  I wish I'd thought of that  - cheers SirAndrewD (for the record no [and I mean no] sarcasm).

Gusington

Very impressive keeping this out of R&P. Well done all!


слава Україна!

We can't live under the threat of a c*nt because he's threatening nuclear Armageddon.

-JudgeDredd

JasonPratt

I agree a dumb game shouldn't draw us to fight against one another; but neither do I mind opportunities for friendly discussions (where possible) about our differences of belief.

Which seems to me to be the point to Tripoli inviting FTed to create a new RFP thread to discuss whether all religious belief is about "essentially attempting to exploit a person's ignorance about the nature of the world in order to manipulate them for your own gain" or in other words to "subjugate" them.

And maybe also about whether "no religions are true" along the way -- a much, much larger topic -- but I'm at least 50% sure Tripoli was aiming primarily at discussing those other, positive not negative, details. I know I was! ;)
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

JasonPratt

I don't mean Father Ted or anyone else has to make an RFP thread about that topic, btw. I'm only reminding that there were other details that we were offering to discuss elsewhere.
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

Tripoli

Quote from: JasonPratt on December 15, 2019, 07:04:02 PM
I agree a dumb game shouldn't draw us to fight against one another; but neither do I mind opportunities for friendly discussions (where possible) about our differences of belief.

Which seems to me to be the point to Tripoli inviting FTed to create a new RFP thread to discuss whether all religious belief is about "essentially attempting to exploit a person's ignorance about the nature of the world in order to manipulate them for your own gain" or in other words to "subjugate" them.

And maybe also about whether "no religions are true" along the way -- a much, much larger topic -- but I'm at least 50% sure Tripoli was aiming primarily at discussing those other, positive not negative, details. I know I was! ;)

Yes, that was my objective
"Do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends?" -Abraham Lincoln