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Hearts of Iron IV

Started by Ian C, May 13, 2016, 01:07:15 PM

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Pete Dero

Quote from: W8taminute on June 29, 2016, 06:06:36 AM
Although I would love to have a blank division template I think it should be an optional feature.

This is included in the upcoming patch 1.1 (and is the current available beta).

Jarhead0331

Well...my great game as Germany and all my grandiose plans went to $hit last night after Russia declared war and invaded. The 48 divisions I had on the frontier were entirely overwhelmed by the Red onslaught. Within months, the Russians reached Warsaw and I simply do not see anyway to stop the juggernaut and turn the tide. How the hell can a player as Germany recruit and deploy enough divisions to score a quick win in the west and if not be in a position to invade Russia, at least have enough security on the eastern border to hold them?
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


Ian C

#692
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 29, 2016, 06:48:19 AMHow the hell can a player as Germany recruit and deploy enough divisions to score a quick win in the west and if not be in a position to invade Russia, at least have enough security on the eastern border to hold them?

What is your Conscription setting set to?

Jarhead0331

#693
Quote from: Ian C on June 29, 2016, 07:22:06 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 29, 2016, 06:48:19 AMHow the hell can a player as Germany recruit and deploy enough divisions to score a quick win in the west and if not be in a position to invade Russia, at least have enough security on the eastern border to hold them?

What is your Conscription setting set to?

Manpower is not the problem. The problem is the time it takes to recruit, train and equip new divisions. Yes, deploying green divisions would put more manpower into the field faster, but I'm not sure there would be any real strategic benefit to this.

What is the consensus on how many divisions to recruit and train at once? I'm assuming the more units in training at any one time, the slower they are actually trained...particularly if there is not enough equipment to go around.
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


jamus34

My question is how are those red divisions combat worthy ?

I mean the Soviets issue was always equipment; a crack, supplied german div should roll through the Soviet line if they are throwing out green undersupplied divisions.
Insert witty comment here.

Jarhead0331

Quote from: jamus34 on June 29, 2016, 08:08:41 AM
My question is how are those red divisions combat worthy ?

I mean the Soviets issue was always equipment; a crack, supplied german div should roll through the Soviet line if they are throwing out green undersupplied divisions.

I have to assume the AI does not make the same historical mistakes of Stalin. No officer purge and perhaps R&D, and modernization in more of a priority than political consolidation? I'll hop in tonight and see what intel I can gather on the quality and TO&E of the Soviet divisions.  As posted by someone earlier, when they went and looked at this after being defeated, they were shocked at the quality and level of technology of the AI enemy.
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


Ian C

#696
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 29, 2016, 08:01:09 AM
What is the consensus on how many divisions to recruit and train at once? I'm assuming the more units in training at any one time, the slower they are actually trained...particularly if there is not enough equipment to go around.

I have a copy open of John Ellis' World War II Databook (US: https://www.amazon.com/World-War-II-Data-Book/dp/1854102540  UK: https://www.amazon.co.uk/World-War-II-Data-Book/dp/1854102540  if you don't own one, order one right now. You won't be disappointed).

For Germany, around 25-35 Infantry Divisions per year for 1941-44.

Not including pre-1939 divisions, here are the historical numbers of German Army builds for each year:

1939
Panzer: 1
Motorised: 2 SS
Infantry: 63 includes 1 Security division
Mountain:1

1940
Panzer: 11
Motorised: 2 SS, 8 Regular
Infantry: 49 includes 1 Security division
Light & Jager: 4
Mountain: 3

1941
Panzer: 2
Motorised: 1 SS
Infantry: 29 includes 1 Security division
Light & Jager: 4
Mountain: 3

1942
Panzer: 1 SS, 5 Regular
Motorised: 2 SS
Infantry: 26 includes 1 Security division
Light & Jager: 2
Mountain: 1
Cavalry: 1 SS
Luftwaffe Infantry: 17

1943
Panzer: 7 SS, 2 Regular
Motorised: 5 SS, 3 Regular
Infantry: 3 SS, 28 Regular
Light & Jager: 5
Mountain: 1
Cavalry:1
Airborne: 5
Luftwaffe Infantry: 3

1944
Panzer: 1
Motorised: 1 SS, 1 Regular
Infantry: 2 SS, 14 Regular + 20 Volksgrenadier Divisions
Light & Jager: 2
Cavalry: 1 SS, 1 Regular 
Airborne: 4

1945
Infantry: 1
Mountain: 2
Airborne: 1

FarAway Sooner

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 29, 2016, 06:48:19 AM
Well...my great game as Germany and all my grandiose plans went to $hit last night after Russia declared war and invaded. The 48 divisions I had on the frontier were entirely overwhelmed by the Red onslaught. Within months, the Russians reached Warsaw and I simply do not see anyway to stop the juggernaut and turn the tide. How the hell can a player as Germany recruit and deploy enough divisions to score a quick win in the west and if not be in a position to invade Russia, at least have enough security on the eastern border to hold them?

Shall we just start calling you tovarich Jarhead on the forums, then?   :)

sandman2575

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 29, 2016, 06:48:19 AM
How the hell can a player as Germany recruit and deploy enough divisions to score a quick win in the west and if not be in a position to invade Russia, at least have enough security on the eastern border to hold them?

Bingo -- this is the problem.  HOI4 is hugely unbalanced right now on many levels, one of the most damaging being the AI's *massive overproduction* of divisions. Many of them are crappy divisions, but when you crank out 700 divisions, well, as Stalin is supposed to have said, quantity has a quality all its own. Unfortunately that number is not an exaggeration. In my current game as Germany, the info. on the 'current wars' screen shows that USSR has somewhere between 500-900 divisions. I have around 200. I dug up a fact recently that indicated the USA, at the *peak* of its power toward the end of WW2, never had more than around 230-240 divisions *in all the services combined*. Even for the feared Soviet hordes, 700 divisions seems a tad overkill.

I don't see how the Germany player can possibly contend with USSR as HOI4 currently stands. In a couple of aborted play-thrus I've experienced playing Germany, USSR declared war on me every time. I never initiated Barbarossa, because USSR was itching to fight well before June '41. In my current game, it's Sept. '41 -- USSR declared war on me months ago and we are locked in a death match. I can't initiate any offensive, because all I'm doing is trying to hold a long front-line that extends from Estonia down to Romania. I easily have 80% of my divisions and 95% of my airforce committed to holding the Russians back, and I also have ample help from Italian, Hungarian, Romanian, and Yugoslavian allies. But it's like the proverbial dam that springing leaks everywhere. There's only a limited number of fingers I can use to plug the leaks, and sooner or later, the whole thing's gonna give way.

So yeah, not sure what to say. HOI4 seems fairly unplayable as Germany. USA joins the war way too early, and USSR gets the jump on you every time.




Philippe

My own personal theory is that Paradox has some kind of secret aversion to reproducing history.  If I'm right about that, I wonder if that isn't what's going on here.  If a designer buys in to the concept of the primacy of alternate history, it absolves him from having to worry about a lot of historical research.

(I've given up wondering if it will ever be possible to re-enact Columbus' First Voyage in Europa Universalis).
Every generation gets the Greeks and Romans it deserves.


History is a bad joke played by the living on the dead.


Senility is no excuse for feeblemindedness.

Con

Quote from: sandman2575 on June 29, 2016, 03:31:32 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 29, 2016, 06:48:19 AM
How the hell can a player as Germany recruit and deploy enough divisions to score a quick win in the west and if not be in a position to invade Russia, at least have enough security on the eastern border to hold them?

Bingo -- this is the problem.  HOI4 is hugely unbalanced right now on many levels, one of the most damaging being the AI's *massive overproduction* of divisions. Many of them are crappy divisions, but when you crank out 700 divisions, well, as Stalin is supposed to have said, quantity has a quality all its own. Unfortunately that number is not an exaggeration. In my current game as Germany, the info. on the 'current wars' screen shows that USSR has somewhere between 500-900 divisions. I have around 200. I dug up a fact recently that indicated the USA, at the *peak* of its power toward the end of WW2, never had more than around 230-240 divisions *in all the services combined*. Even for the feared Soviet hordes, 700 divisions seems a tad overkill.

I don't see how the Germany player can possibly contend with USSR as HOI4 currently stands. In a couple of aborted play-thrus I've experienced playing Germany, USSR declared war on me every time. I never initiated Barbarossa, because USSR was itching to fight well before June '41. In my current game, it's Sept. '41 -- USSR declared war on me months ago and we are locked in a death match. I can't initiate any offensive, because all I'm doing is trying to hold a long front-line that extends from Estonia down to Romania. I easily have 80% of my divisions and 95% of my airforce committed to holding the Russians back, and I also have ample help from Italian, Hungarian, Romanian, and Yugoslavian allies. But it's like the proverbial dam that springing leaks everywhere. There's only a limited number of fingers I can use to plug the leaks, and sooner or later, the whole thing's gonna give way.

So yeah, not sure what to say. HOI4 seems fairly unplayable as Germany. USA joins the war way too early, and USSR gets the jump on you every time.

A friend of mine playing HOI4 has Germany dominating the world.  He dropped paras on Brittain in 1937 and conquered them out of the war by 38.  This left him free to run rampant in Afrika take Turkey and initiate Barbarossa by 41.  Currently he has crushed the Comintern and is now rolling his Panzer Divisions against the US in the Pacific theater.

I am playing Italy and we just hit May 43 before the Russians started the war.  I am currently taking Turkey and then plan on entrenching my mountain divisions in the Caucuses and Ashabad mountain ranges.  Lets see if we can hold off the bear.

Con

mikeck

 So maybe the secret is to take out Britain first then go for France?  that way you can completely concentrate on Russia when the time comes.
"A government large enough to give you everything you want is strong enough to take everything you have."--Thomas Jefferson

Jarhead0331

Quote from: Con on June 29, 2016, 04:05:17 PM
Quote from: sandman2575 on June 29, 2016, 03:31:32 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 29, 2016, 06:48:19 AM
How the hell can a player as Germany recruit and deploy enough divisions to score a quick win in the west and if not be in a position to invade Russia, at least have enough security on the eastern border to hold them?

Bingo -- this is the problem.  HOI4 is hugely unbalanced right now on many levels, one of the most damaging being the AI's *massive overproduction* of divisions. Many of them are crappy divisions, but when you crank out 700 divisions, well, as Stalin is supposed to have said, quantity has a quality all its own. Unfortunately that number is not an exaggeration. In my current game as Germany, the info. on the 'current wars' screen shows that USSR has somewhere between 500-900 divisions. I have around 200. I dug up a fact recently that indicated the USA, at the *peak* of its power toward the end of WW2, never had more than around 230-240 divisions *in all the services combined*. Even for the feared Soviet hordes, 700 divisions seems a tad overkill.

I don't see how the Germany player can possibly contend with USSR as HOI4 currently stands. In a couple of aborted play-thrus I've experienced playing Germany, USSR declared war on me every time. I never initiated Barbarossa, because USSR was itching to fight well before June '41. In my current game, it's Sept. '41 -- USSR declared war on me months ago and we are locked in a death match. I can't initiate any offensive, because all I'm doing is trying to hold a long front-line that extends from Estonia down to Romania. I easily have 80% of my divisions and 95% of my airforce committed to holding the Russians back, and I also have ample help from Italian, Hungarian, Romanian, and Yugoslavian allies. But it's like the proverbial dam that springing leaks everywhere. There's only a limited number of fingers I can use to plug the leaks, and sooner or later, the whole thing's gonna give way.

So yeah, not sure what to say. HOI4 seems fairly unplayable as Germany. USA joins the war way too early, and USSR gets the jump on you every time.

A friend of mine playing HOI4 has Germany dominating the world.  He dropped paras on Brittain in 1937 and conquered them out of the war by 38.  This left him free to run rampant in Afrika take Turkey and initiate Barbarossa by 41.  Currently he has crushed the Comintern and is now rolling his Panzer Divisions against the US in the Pacific theater.

I am playing Italy and we just hit May 43 before the Russians started the war.  I am currently taking Turkey and then plan on entrenching my mountain divisions in the Caucuses and Ashabad mountain ranges.  Lets see if we can hold off the bear.

Con

Pics...or it didn't happen.

How are airborne units going to be able to take control of the UK without armor, mechanized and heavier infantry support? How was he able to build enough airborne units and transports to get enough boots on the ground by 1937? What about the other allied powers? When he declared war on the UK, didn't the UK bring France and everyone else into the war? If so, how was he able to hold the Seigfried line? i would expect his divisions in mainland Germany to be minimal since he would have to have placed so much effort into building those airborne units.

I dunno...I'm sure its possible, given a lot of luck, but still...I'm pretty skeptical.
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


Con

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 29, 2016, 04:27:58 PM
Quote from: Con on June 29, 2016, 04:05:17 PM
Quote from: sandman2575 on June 29, 2016, 03:31:32 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 29, 2016, 06:48:19 AM
How the hell can a player as Germany recruit and deploy enough divisions to score a quick win in the west and if not be in a position to invade Russia, at least have enough security on the eastern border to hold them?

Bingo -- this is the problem.  HOI4 is hugely unbalanced right now on many levels, one of the most damaging being the AI's *massive overproduction* of divisions. Many of them are crappy divisions, but when you crank out 700 divisions, well, as Stalin is supposed to have said, quantity has a quality all its own. Unfortunately that number is not an exaggeration. In my current game as Germany, the info. on the 'current wars' screen shows that USSR has somewhere between 500-900 divisions. I have around 200. I dug up a fact recently that indicated the USA, at the *peak* of its power toward the end of WW2, never had more than around 230-240 divisions *in all the services combined*. Even for the feared Soviet hordes, 700 divisions seems a tad overkill.

I don't see how the Germany player can possibly contend with USSR as HOI4 currently stands. In a couple of aborted play-thrus I've experienced playing Germany, USSR declared war on me every time. I never initiated Barbarossa, because USSR was itching to fight well before June '41. In my current game, it's Sept. '41 -- USSR declared war on me months ago and we are locked in a death match. I can't initiate any offensive, because all I'm doing is trying to hold a long front-line that extends from Estonia down to Romania. I easily have 80% of my divisions and 95% of my airforce committed to holding the Russians back, and I also have ample help from Italian, Hungarian, Romanian, and Yugoslavian allies. But it's like the proverbial dam that springing leaks everywhere. There's only a limited number of fingers I can use to plug the leaks, and sooner or later, the whole thing's gonna give way.

So yeah, not sure what to say. HOI4 seems fairly unplayable as Germany. USA joins the war way too early, and USSR gets the jump on you every time.

A friend of mine playing HOI4 has Germany dominating the world.  He dropped paras on Brittain in 1937 and conquered them out of the war by 38.  This left him free to run rampant in Afrika take Turkey and initiate Barbarossa by 41.  Currently he has crushed the Comintern and is now rolling his Panzer Divisions against the US in the Pacific theater.

I am playing Italy and we just hit May 43 before the Russians started the war.  I am currently taking Turkey and then plan on entrenching my mountain divisions in the Caucuses and Ashabad mountain ranges.  Lets see if we can hold off the bear.

Con

Pics...or it didn't happen.

How are airborne units going to be able to take control of the UK without armor, mechanized and heavier infantry support? How was he able to build enough airborne units and transports to get enough boots on the ground by 1937? What about the other allied powers? When he declared war on the UK, didn't the UK bring France and everyone else into the war? If so, how was he able to hold the Seigfried line? i would expect his divisions in mainland Germany to be minimal since he would have to have placed so much effort into building those airborne units.

I dunno...I'm sure its possible, given a lot of luck, but still...I'm pretty skeptical.
Well he told me he followed some advice he got on HOI4 on youtube I think.  I will ask him for some pics.  BAsed on how our lunch conversations on HOI4 are I believe him but proof of his diabolical plans are necessary.

Here is the youtube link


Con

sandman2575

I should have been more specific -- I think for someone who wants to follow a more or less historical path and timeline, playing as Germany becomes really difficult due to USSR's huge accumulation of divisions by 1940-41, combined with USSR's general aggressiveness and USA's penchant for entering the war too early.