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Hearts of Iron IV

Started by Ian C, May 13, 2016, 01:07:15 PM

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jamus34

Agreed sandman, and I think a lot of that has to with how poorly HOI models naval warfare. It's never been a strong point.

That said I don't know how you fix the naval combat without sacrificing the grand strategy feel of the game. I mean you go from needing 2 to 3 years in WitP to simulate the war assuming your doing 2 turns a day.
On the flip side you can probably play a full game of HOI in what 2, 3 weeks?

Again not sure what the solution is but the gap is both wide and deep...
Insert witty comment here.

FarAway Sooner

My own sense, from comments made around here, is that what the game most needs is massive AI upgrades.  In the meantime, additional DLC is fine--although charging for what feels like such a modest update does suggest that I'm best served to wait two years until a bunch of these is bundled on sale and the AI is improved.

Just to be clear, it's not even UK forces, it's the Commonwealth forces.  While Lord knows that the Aussies fought as well (probably better) man-for-man as any country in the war, it's curious to see these sorts of changes being rolled out to such minor participants.  I guess I'll need to wait to see what the price point is, and what some of the additional content mentioned in the link above actually represents.

If they price this low enough, it may just be an economic recon into the "How well can this title sell DLC?" area.  From a business standpoint, there's nothing to argue with there.

sandman2575

I guess that's the thing that bothers me about this DLC. It doesn't seem like it's offering *essential* new content that brings HOI4 up to a new level. That's not a knock at all on the Commonwealth, it's a knock on the lack of ambition Pdox seems to be showing with this 'expansion.'

I'm surprised / disappointed to find myself in a position where I feel I could pass on the first HOI4 expansion without much loss to my game experience. Wasn't expecting that to be the case.

glen55

Quote from: sandman2575 on November 02, 2016, 12:21:09 PM
I guess that's the thing that bothers me about this DLC. It doesn't seem like it's offering *essential* new content that brings HOI4 up to a new level. That's not a knock at all on the Commonwealth, it's a knock on the lack of ambition Pdox seems to be showing with this 'expansion.'

I'm surprised / disappointed to find myself in a position where I feel I could pass on the first HOI4 expansion without much loss to my game experience. Wasn't expecting that to be the case.

Paradox knows that AI is, persistently and pretty much across all games, their achilles heel. It seems to me that they like to keep their AI fixes low-key and headline something else in the patch/DLC, simply because they don't like to highlight AI. So you can never really know whether the important stuff gets fixed until the patch has been out a couple of weeks and you read forum reports from the vets and the tester nerds.
Things are more like they are now than they have ever been before.
  - Dwight D. Eisenhower

acctingman

Quote from: glen55 on November 02, 2016, 03:21:42 PM
Quote from: sandman2575 on November 02, 2016, 12:21:09 PM
I guess that's the thing that bothers me about this DLC. It doesn't seem like it's offering *essential* new content that brings HOI4 up to a new level. That's not a knock at all on the Commonwealth, it's a knock on the lack of ambition Pdox seems to be showing with this 'expansion.'

I'm surprised / disappointed to find myself in a position where I feel I could pass on the first HOI4 expansion without much loss to my game experience. Wasn't expecting that to be the case.

Paradox knows that AI is, persistently and pretty much across all games, their achilles heel. It seems to me that they like to keep their AI fixes low-key and headline something else in the patch/DLC, simply because they don't like to highlight AI. So you can never really know whether the important stuff gets fixed until the patch has been out a couple of weeks and you read forum reports from the vets and the tester nerds.

As a relatively new strategy gamer, knowing this makes me want to spend my limited gaming budget elsewhere.

Surtur

Quote from: sandman2575 on November 02, 2016, 12:21:09 PM
I guess that's the thing that bothers me about this DLC. It doesn't seem like it's offering *essential* new content that brings HOI4 up to a new level. That's not a knock at all on the Commonwealth, it's a knock on the lack of ambition Pdox seems to be showing with this 'expansion.'

I'm surprised / disappointed to find myself in a position where I feel I could pass on the first HOI4 expansion without much loss to my game experience. Wasn't expecting that to be the case.

This, I feel the same way and will probably only pick it up if/when I feel a strong urge to play one of the Commonwealth nations, which I don't usually do.
"Gentlemen, You Can't Fight in Here. This is the War Room!"

Ian C

Well, according to the latest dev diary there is extra content beyond the initial Commonwealth content:


QuoteContinuous Focuses
With Together for Victory we introduce a new type of national focuses. These can only be taken if you have done at least 10 regular focuses first and rather than taking 70 days and giving you a rewards they instead give you different kinds of bonuses while they are active (this means you can turn them off if you are low on political power or need to do something else). The base system here will be part of the 1.3 Torch patch, while the focuses related to new mechanics in the expansion will only be available to people who get that


https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/hoi4-dev-diary-south-africa-together-for-victory.979679/

bboyer66

Quote from: FarAway Sooner on November 02, 2016, 10:54:50 AM
My own sense, from comments made around here, is that what the game most needs is massive AI upgrades.  In the meantime, additional DLC is fine--although charging for what feels like such a modest update does suggest that I'm best served to wait two years until a bunch of these is bundled on sale and the AI is improved.

Just to be clear, it's not even UK forces, it's the Commonwealth forces.  While Lord knows that the Aussies fought as well (probably better) man-for-man as any country in the war, it's curious to see these sorts of changes being rolled out to such minor participants.  I guess I'll need to wait to see what the price point is, and what some of the additional content mentioned in the link above actually represents.

If they price this low enough, it may just be an economic recon into the "How well can this title sell DLC?" area.  From a business standpoint, there's nothing to argue with there.


The more I play EU IV the more I am impressed with the AI.  It seems to make rational diplomatic decisions. It shows excellent competence in attack, defense, and naval, when it comes to warfare. Playing my last  EU game as Moskva, I was surprised again and again by how well the AI played some countries. So I know Paradox has the ability to make a pretty decent AI. Which is why I am not so sure why the HOI  AI always seems to be lacking. Could it be that the larger amount of  political and military options in HOI is just too much for the AI to handle?

By the way, can anyone tell me if they are getting anything at all resembling a realistic Pacific War in HOI IV? Just curious as this has always been the weakest part of all the previous HOI games, and I was wondering if they had made any progress in this iteration. 

Pete Dero

Preview of the content in the first expansion :


sandman2575

Have to say I'm a lot more interested in the upcoming patch than this expansion (which I will undoubtedly buy anyway).

I recently tried to get back into HOI4. But as others have said, the AI remains a serious problem. It builds far, far too many weak unsupported divisions (infantry div = 6-9 inf. battalions, + maybe an arty coy if they're lucky), still has serious trouble attacking or defending. AI also has serious trouble managing industry. In short, the game is just way too easy if you're playing a major power (which I always do).

I was hoping mods might save things, but I'm discouraged by the direction BlackICE is going in -- a 'more is always better' philosophy that I disagree with. One of the solid AI mods ("AI Research and Division Tweaks) stopped getting updated by the creator. Gave another, "Expert AI," a shot, and disliked the results -- found the AI hugely spamming air units and building little else -- and given how ridiculously skewed the air war remains, where you can lose your entire airforce in a couple of weeks, this made for an unplayable game.

Sigh. It's really frustrating. I overall love the improvements HOI4 made over 3. But the dismal AI just makes the game unenjoyable.


Rayfer

#850
I'm always fascinated by how there are such extremes in expressions of our experiences with the same game.  Regarding HoI4's AI one recent poster wrote: But the dismal AI just makes the game unenjoyable while another wrote: The more I play EU IV the more I am impressed with the AI. I play this game a lot and my opinion of the AI falls somewhere between the two.

bboyer66

Quote from: Rayfer on December 07, 2016, 12:42:16 PM
I'm always fascinated by how there are such extremes in expressions of our experiences with the same game.  Regarding HoI4's AI one recent poster wrote: But the dismal AI just makes the game unenjoyable while another wrote: The more I play EU IV the more I am impressed with the AI. I play this game a lot and my opinion of the AI falls somewhere between the two.

I was talking about EU IVs AI, not HOI IV, and why EU IVs AI,  which is made by the same company so good. While HOI IVs AI just seems to be so damn bad.

As a side note I have checked the forums and it seem the Pacific Theater still shows no resemblance of reality in this version of HOI. 


glen55

Quote from: bboyer66 on December 07, 2016, 12:59:20 PM
Quote from: Rayfer on December 07, 2016, 12:42:16 PM
I'm always fascinated by how there are such extremes in expressions of our experiences with the same game.  Regarding HoI4's AI one recent poster wrote: But the dismal AI just makes the game unenjoyable while another wrote: The more I play EU IV the more I am impressed with the AI. I play this game a lot and my opinion of the AI falls somewhere between the two.

I was talking about EU IVs AI, not HOI IV, and why EU IVs AI,  which is made by the same company so good. While HOI IVs AI just seems to be so damn bad.

As a side note I have checked the forums and it seem the Pacific Theater still shows no resemblance of reality in this version of HOI.

I believe that the biggest EU IV AI improvements originated with modders who cooperated with Paradox.
Things are more like they are now than they have ever been before.
  - Dwight D. Eisenhower

Rayfer

Quote from: bboyer66 on December 07, 2016, 12:59:20 PM
Quote from: Rayfer on December 07, 2016, 12:42:16 PM
I'm always fascinated by how there are such extremes in expressions of our experiences with the same game.  Regarding HoI4's AI one recent poster wrote: But the dismal AI just makes the game unenjoyable while another wrote: The more I play EU IV the more I am impressed with the AI. I play this game a lot and my opinion of the AI falls somewhere between the two.

I was talking about EU IVs AI, not HOI IV, and why EU IVs AI,  which is made by the same company so good. While HOI IVs AI just seems to be so damn bad.

As a side note I have checked the forums and it seem the Pacific Theater still shows no resemblance of reality in this version of HOI.

Sorry....got my HoI's and EU's mixed up.  :o

sandman2575

Also -- and I'm not a programmer so this is speculation -- I have to believe that programming the AI for HOI is vastly more difficult than EU. Not saying that EU is a simple game -- it's anything but -- but the sheer number of complex things the AI in HOI has to manage is staggering. Thus I'm not surprised Pdox has struggled to create a good AI for HOI -- but I really wish they'd make improving it the priority. I frankly don't care too much about national focus trees and the other stuff this new expansion is offering. It feels like just so much window dressing -- very nice to look at, but hardly essential.