couldn't find the old thread....but this comes out tomorrow.
based on initial reviews, starting to think i shouldn't have pre ordered....here is one example and seems others are luke warm...
https://www.pcgamer.com/empire-of-sin-review/
Darn, maybe it will be good. I rarely buy I game these days right after release. I have been burned a few times and now wait for sales or just don't bother. Only 24 hours in a day including work, sleep and training. Leaves me with a little time to learn new games. I hope it's a good game
^I was surprised at how little the PC Gamer reviewer enjoyed it. The RPS reviewer liked it a lot more. Sounds like after a few patches it will be much better.
I have refunded it already !
There appears to be some design problems uncovered by several early reviewers. It seems that by early to mid game you can win very easily by ignoring all the management aspects and instead just going to the HQ of each of the other bosses in turn and killing them which grant's you all of their holdings....also the player bosses are very OP so clearing normal buildings with Capone for example seems to be a case of walking in...choosing overwatch and then seeing the thugs walk into volleys of sub machine gun fire for an instant death :(
Great shame as the presentation looks lovely.
I believe a game called 1920's Organised Crime or something similar is out on Steam soon. That is less glitzy but hopefully is a better game.
If nobody objects, here's the review I did over at PCGamesN: https://www.pcgamesn.com/empire-of-sin/review
I think it's definitely better than the 49 Fraser gave it, but if I was feeling less charitable about its shortcomings I could have easily have given it a 6 vs. a 7. I genuinely enjoyed what I played, but it's a bit rough and ready - content doesn't scale well into the mid-late game and quite a few technical hiccups as well.
Another example of why waiting and not buying on release day is almost always the way to go.
yeah, this one concerned me a bit from the start but I still pre-ordered....certainly a lessons learned for some of these games.
^Are you playing it, Grim?
Quote from: Gusington on December 01, 2020, 11:12:53 AM
^Are you playing it, Grim?
Just got the key so haven't had a chance....will try and install tonight/tomorrow. Not as motivated now after hearing these reviews:)
Yeah can't blame you.
I am not immediately attracted to the title, but I trust that imbalance issues will be corrected, more or less, over time. Paradox seldom abandons games, not since March of the Eagles; it wants to be known for good support, and an original Europa Universalis programmer, that older Scottisish guy, has been assigned to the project, I suspect to rescue the game play engine from an initial mess.
They bought the Romero company, I don't think they want that to be a dud.
^Agreed.
Quote from: Gusington on December 01, 2020, 02:25:54 PM
Yeah can't blame you.
The download is only like 4GB, that's another clue for me:)
Lets put it this way. I am happy I refunded my prepurchase yesterday before even going through a download process.
Truly awful reviews out there and Steam comments not good now ...
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 01, 2020, 04:37:36 PM
Quote from: Gusington on December 01, 2020, 02:25:54 PM
Yeah can't blame you.
The download is only like 4GB, that's another clue for me:)
Only 4GB? I remember (back when I was trudging over the mountains in the snow to school) when a 4GB download was considered HUGH! >:D
Interesting quick spin in the game....got to play some of the combat. Literally I am standing right next to the enemy with machine guns and shotguns, basically pointed directly at them. A number of times I miss my shot, other times when I connect it takes 2-3 hits to take the person down. Seems a tad unreasonable with those weapons and my position......it's not like they are wearing the latest body armor:)
Not a great intro...but I will push ahead at some point but that was enough for tonight...
Do it for us!
About 2 hours in and the game is growing on me and I am having fun.
Clearly the game is meant for the XCOM audience and that is a good thing in my book.
Nice clean UI, deep features. Layout is intuitive...like XCOM. Good atmosphere...although I would have liked a little more "realism"...and while they were at it...the music... It tries for that 1920s feel...but is just slightly off. Since much of the real music in now old enough to be in the public domain...it would have been nice for them to use the real thing... The characters have a bit of a cartoony over-the-top feel...kind of like CIV VI. I would have liked to see them be more gritty and menacing...but that is just me.
Game is not perfect... Some of the fight stuff seems a little off, but not too distracting for me anyway. It's true, it takes about 3 - 4 pistol shots to take the average enemy down...bosses much more. Sometimes some head scratching moments with line-of-sight and to hit percentages. But overall not much different from XCOM.
I was not a fan of the "sit-down" negotiation mechanic (used when you want to talk and not fight with the AI bosses) at first...but once I started to get closer to the RPG element...I kind of like it.
I am having fun in the early game and happy with the purchase so far. It may get "samey" mid-game, but we shall see. Sure, there is an exploit that allows you to just walk in and blow each of the AI bosses away. But its a solo-game against the AI...so nobody is forcing me to use the nuke button. Solo-games are as much about the journey as the destination.
Too early to give a yea or nay, except to say that if you loved XCOM, this is probably a safe purchase.
Quote from: ArizonaTank on December 01, 2020, 11:53:46 PM
Game is not perfect... Some of the fight stuff seems a little off, but not too distracting for me anyway. It's true, it takes about 3 - 4 pistol shots to take the average enemy down...bosses much more. Sometimes some head scratching moments with line-of-sight and to hit percentages. But overall not much different from XCOM.
I am not far enough in to comment about the non-fight mechanics so hopefully things turn out better than the reviews imply. No doubt the fight mechanics are very xcom-like but not sure it is working in the gangster days vs a futuristic setting. Fighting in the future and against aliens, your imagination can stretch to think they have more advanced protection and possibly tougher body consumption to absorb more damage. But back in the old days where there was limited protection, I think its a little less believable. And its not just a matter of taking 2-3 shots to kill off the enemy, its the positioning that makes it even more head scratching. My person is right next to the person with a shotgun, machine gun, or pistol and yet I either miss or do little damage. I could completely understand if my person was further away but that wasn't the case. Maybe further into the game those things change a bit, I guess we'll see.
In any event, I truly do hope it turns out to be a great game as I like this kind of game so keeping my fingers crossed...
How is the empire management portion of the game? Is it deeply satisfying? I can't help but compare to the 1999 title 'Gangsters: Organized Crime'.
There have been a few earlier mentions of Omerta too...not positive ones, IIRC.
Quote from: Gusington on December 02, 2020, 11:45:39 AM
There have been a few earlier mentions of Omerta too...not positive ones, IIRC.
Omerta left me cold for some reason, it never clicked with me and I don't know why.
^Yeah that's the general impression I get from most guys who have played it.
Quote from: W8taminute on December 02, 2020, 09:20:46 AM
How is the empire management portion of the game? Is it deeply satisfying? I can't help but compare to the 1999 title 'Gangsters: Organized Crime'.
If comparing to Gangsters, many of the same elements are there in EoS. Clearly they took inspiration from "Gangsters" (still alive and well on GOG BTW). Although EoS is "lighter" than Gangsters. This may be partially because the interface in EoS is much better and intuitive. But in some cases, EoS is just lighter. For example, in EoS hiring thugs can be done from a screen where you choose and hire from a bunch of available choices...thugs also start to hang out in your establishments (you get a message like...hey boss there is a strange guy hanging out at the bar...). Where as in Gangsters, I believe you had to send one of your henchman out to a place where thugs hang out to see which ones you could catch.
In EoS you are given a layout of Chicago and you carve out your operations by taking and buying buildings. From there you can set up breweries, speakeasys, brothels or casinos. From there you can improve them with security, ambience, word of mouth advertising etc. You pretty quickly start to run into the police and other gangs. The AI seems to be proactive in reaching out...in my game the gangster next door keeps asking to trade. I haven't played long enough to see what a "war" looks like, or how far I can go with the police.
One disappointing aspect is that automobiles seem to play only a minor role...just a selection box on a menu when you want to go somewhere quickly.
I still haven't played enough to see how EoS works with multi-tasking. One of the great strengths of Gangsters as I recall was that your thugs were semi-independent if you needed them to be. You could assign them tasks...and check up on them later. I haven't gotten to that point yet in EoS, so don't know how it compares. But I suspect you don't have as many choices in EoS.
As to the deeply satisfying part...well I am waiting to see. My initial reaction to gameplay is good, but still early days.
I bought Mafia Remastered a while back just to drive around the city in the cars they offer. Can't wait!
A speakeasy too far?
:-[
Picked the game up last night and spent some time with it. So far I agree with ArizonaTank's assessment.
Just getting into it but so far I sorta like it.
The strategic layer which I'm just getting the hang of is superior, I think, to Gangsters.
As for the tactical combat, so far I'm wishing it were a bit MORE like Omerta. Omerta
just seemed more "realistic" in the tactical fights. EoS seems a bit cartoony in the
tactical fights. But I kinda liked Omerta so there is that......
Quote from: gregb41352 on December 03, 2020, 06:43:54 PM
Just getting into it but so far I sorta like it.
The strategic layer which I'm just getting the hang of is superior, I think, to Gangsters.
As for the tactical combat, so far I'm wishing it were a bit MORE like Omerta. Omerta
just seemed more "realistic" in the tactical fights. EoS seems a bit cartoony in the
tactical fights. But I kinda liked Omerta so there is that......
Hi. Yes I think the strategic layer is superior to Gangsters in that it is a lot easier to see the overall big picture. The strategy layer in this game is deep in ways Gangsters was not. But I would say Empire of Sin is as satisfying to me as Gangsters was on the strategic layer.
As for combat I can't really comment on the comparison to Omerta as I have not played that game but so far I'm ok with how it is handled in Empire of Sin. I was a bit scared that combat in EoS would be like XCOM in that the player would miss every shot they took even if the enemy was right next to them and your guy had a A+ rating for marksmanship. Thankfully that is not the case here.
Quote from: W8taminute on December 04, 2020, 08:46:40 AM
Quote from: gregb41352 on December 03, 2020, 06:43:54 PM
Just getting into it but so far I sorta like it.
The strategic layer which I'm just getting the hang of is superior, I think, to Gangsters.
As for the tactical combat, so far I'm wishing it were a bit MORE like Omerta. Omerta
just seemed more "realistic" in the tactical fights. EoS seems a bit cartoony in the
tactical fights. But I kinda liked Omerta so there is that......
Hi. Yes I think the strategic layer is superior to Gangsters in that it is a lot easier to see the overall big picture. The strategy layer in this game is deep in ways Gangsters was not. But I would say Empire of Sin is as satisfying to me as Gangsters was on the strategic layer.
As for combat I can't really comment on the comparison to Omerta as I have not played that game but so far I'm ok with how it is handled in Empire of Sin. I was a bit scared that combat in EoS would be like XCOM in that the player would miss every shot they took even if the enemy was right next to them and your guy had a A+ rating for marksmanship. Thankfully that is not the case here.
That's interesting that your seeing something different than me in the combat....I see people with shotguns and machine guns miss as well as take 2-3 shots to finish off the enemy in the next square, completely exposed. But its good to hear the strategic layer seems like it might be good....I'll continue to put more time into it, but the combat does have me worried from my early impressions.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 04, 2020, 09:08:11 AM
...
That's interesting that your seeing something different than me in the combat....I see people with shotguns and machine guns miss as well as take 2-3 shots to finish off the enemy in the next square, completely exposed. But its good to hear the strategic layer seems like it might be good....I'll continue to put more time into it, but the combat does have me worried from my early impressions.
Yes I've seen that happen too in all of the battles I've fought so far. I can live with that though because when I played XCOM the level of frustration was such that I rage quit and almost wanted to give up playing video games. I don't feel that here in EoS during combat. Yes one of my guys that has an MP 18 SMG fires burst after burst for three turns in a row before finally killing the target but the ai opponent fires an equal number of misses back at you.
In this way I find it an easier pill to swallow than when the only one getting 100% one hit kills 100% of the time is the ai.
Quote from: W8taminute on December 04, 2020, 10:49:42 AM
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 04, 2020, 09:08:11 AM
...
That's interesting that your seeing something different than me in the combat....I see people with shotguns and machine guns miss as well as take 2-3 shots to finish off the enemy in the next square, completely exposed. But its good to hear the strategic layer seems like it might be good....I'll continue to put more time into it, but the combat does have me worried from my early impressions.
Yes I've seen that happen too in all of the battles I've fought so far. I can live with that though because when I played XCOM the level of frustration was such that I rage quit and almost wanted to give up playing video games. I don't feel that here in EoS during combat. Yes one of my guys that has an MP 18 SMG fires burst after burst for three turns in a row before finally killing the target but the ai opponent fires an equal number of misses back at you.
In this way I find it an easier pill to swallow than when the only one getting 100% one hit kills 100% of the time is the ai.
I guess for me I am the opposite because I can better understand in a future setting like XCOM where maybe Aliens and such are more powerful and could survive, but back in the gangster days seems harder to look past. In one of my last combat rounds, I came up behind a group of enemy within one square and fired a shot. I would think I would at least put that person out of commission (sneaking up from behind and getting first shot)...but nope. He still lasts a couple of rounds and by the time I try to finish him off, the others dispense of me.
Maybe it will grow on me....certainly will give it a try
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 04, 2020, 10:57:20 AM
I guess for me I am the opposite because I can better understand in a future setting like XCOM where maybe Aliens and such are more powerful and could survive, but back in the gangster days seems harder to look past. In one of my last combat rounds, I came up behind a group of enemy within one square and fired a shot. I would think I would at least put that person out of commission (sneaking up from behind and getting first shot)...but nope. He still lasts a couple of rounds and by the time I try to finish him off, the others dispense of me.
Maybe it will grow on me....certainly will give it a try
Weapons make a big difference. I picked up a very nice shotgun from one of the joints I raided. Then after completing one of the missions I was given a tommy gun....that made all the difference. I can often take enemies down in one round.
Also, my gangster is Donovan...he uses a sheleighleigh to great effect. If you haven't already, try Donovan and use his special ability. I added Rodriguez who comes with a German SMG and the two of them were able to take on a typical 1/5 building, or group of thugs without too much difficulty.
Combat is far from "realistic", but I still find it to be enjoyable.
Thanks, ArizonaTank,
My enthusiasm went from high, dipping to it can wait until it goes on sale with some DLC. And ironing out more of the bugs.
It would be good if getting wounded have more effect in combat....
Grim.Reaper:
I came up behind a group of enemy within one square and fired a shot. I would think I would at least put that person out of commission (sneaking up from behind and getting first shot)...but nope. He still lasts a couple of rounds and by the time I try to finish him off, the others dispense of me.
What difficulty are those of you who are having trouble in combat playing on? I'm playing on normal difficulty and have yet to lose a team member due to death in combat.