Point of Attack 2 and Tigers Unleashed

[RyanE]

I saw on the Dogs of War forum that POA2 and TU are getting a big update.  I was a little concerned because people were talking about it as if its a new game.  Is there any general information available on what the future plans are for both games.

While on release, I thought POA2 was a great idea and was reasonably executed, subsequent updates really screwed the pooch.  This game has been around since 2002 or so I think.  I was one of the first buyers and hung with it for quite a few years.  But it was broken and somewhat abandoned.  I really hope HPS is being fully transparent on the plans.  As of today, I consider it a waste of money and a black eye on the business ethics of HPS.

I just don't want anyone to go into buying this without some full disclosure.

[Hofstadter]

I saw that game and it looked interesting, it just seemed super complicated and nobody ciuld really get into it

[Rayfer]

Wasn't familiar with either game so I watched a few 'let's play' videos on youtube and neither was appealing.

[panzerde]

It's not so much that it's super-complicated, though it is more complicated than your standard RTS. It's that it's just not a good game/sim. It had its start as a military training sim project IIRC, and probably was what the military wanted, but I don't think it made a good transition to being a game.


I still have my copy of POA2 around here, but haven't bothered to load it up in years. It just isn't playable. I keep hoping that one day they'll fix it, but I'm not holding my breath. They occasionally come out and say they've made great strides and are working on it constantly, but it seems to me that they've had enough time to produce three games of this scale at this point.

[jomni]

Based on my experience with POA2.  It's so detailed that turn times takes quite some time to resolve.
It's neat in concept and probably more suited as a professional simulation tool.

[Boggit]

I've got a copy, but I'm embarrassed to say I never got around to installing, let alone playing it... :-[

[RyanE]

So out of curiosity, I reinstalled POA2 to my laptop.  I have kept a fully installed version on my external HD because it takes up little room.  I made sure I had the latest update, which I think was still listed as a beta update at 2.5.7.  They screwed around with the install where you needed a common fileset called TSS first.  Then the 2.5 update.  Of course you need to have POA2 at 2.3.XX before you could even do that.  I also had forgotten that you needed ADC2 to build maps.  I think I invested about $130 in 2003.  That was a lot for a game then.  I can't believe this has been going on for over 13 years.

My recollection is that at 2.3.XX, it was somewhat stable in 2010, even if still somewhat flawed.  Then a couple years later, they released 2.5 (which was what Tigers Unleashed was developed on).  That release completely screwed everything up.  The name should have changed to "C++ Error" because that was what was up on the screen most of the time.

So my trip down memory lane validated what I remembered.  What I find interesting is that every couple years HPS manages to sucker someone new to lead the charge on the betas.  It follows the same pattern...find someone to take the banner, send them a bunch of betas, the new guy runs around to wargaming forums trumpeting how its all changed, then poof...it all goes away and starts again a few years later.  This is my third time watching this play out.  Last time was on the gamesquad forums.

btw, the latest version has now been in beta for two years.  I will give HPS one thing, they are persistent and predictable.  It is also inexcusable.

Here is the link to the gamesquad discussions...

http://forums.gamesquad.com/forumdisplay.php?52-Point-of-Attack-2/page32&pp=20&sort=lastpost&order=desc&daysprune=-1

[Asid]

The game has improved. The way the dev communicates has not.

I have been using regular updates.

The patch that will be released to the public will be out in a few days.

Oh and I wasn't suckered. I actually think TU has promise  :)

[RyanE]

I suggest you take a trip down memory lane in that gamesquad thread.  You'll see the pattern.

[RyanE]

I suggest you take a trip down memory lane in that gamesquad thread.  You'll see the pattern.

I guess the reason I started this thread is to make sure someone is not completely ignoring the past on this tortured 13-year journey of POA2 and its engine.  Go take a look at the 2-3 year cycle of some outside person contacting Scott, getting involved in the beta testing (if thats what you can call it), going around to different forums to praise all the work HPS has done.  I don't want a single person to spend $60 on something that person and HPS know has a high chance of not really being fixed.

Just look at how its going now.  You have been to a couple forums talking about how great the update is (check), the update is suddenly delayed (check), some people are getting suckered in (check).  All that is left in the pattern is either the update disappears or it still has issues.  Then Scott goes through a panicked series of updates that breaks more than it fixes.

And Scott doesn't come to the forums because he knows he screwed a number of people over.  He likes finding surrogates who will take the heat.

[RyanE]

I want to point out I was a huge fan of POA2 for maybe the first 10 years.  It has great models for FOW, SOPs, and other nice tactical details.  I used to talk about it in the CM forums a lot as an example of modeling SOPs and friendly AI. 

But after the TU and 2.5 fiasco, I gave up.  Even before that, it was still having issues.  But the issues were at least livable if you knew about them.  It took years to finally eliminate all the C++ and math errors.  2.5 came along and was supposed to be a big clean up of the remaining issue, but instead it was almost a 10-year set back.  We kept getting promises of each build finally fixing the problems...and each build seemed to cause more problems than it fixed.

So pardon me for my skepticism and hostile attitude towards someone trying to revisit this with the EXACT same message.

[Asid]

Hi RyanE

I have looked at your link to Gamesquad and fail to see any surrogate behaviour by myself. I have only posted about the games on DOW forum and a couple of light responses on Gamesquad. I have not given the H.P.S titles any special treatment. I only post to keep people informed. That is all.

I purchased the games when they were released. POA-2 is more a tool. TU is better for gaming. The titles are NOT for everyone.

I think the way the dev does not interact in the open is ridiculous. I have messaged many times telling him so. I feel there is no excuse for the company not to have a presence in public.

In future I will refrain from posting about POA-2 and TU here, so as not to upset you.  :)

Regards

[RyanE]

The suggestion is to tell people not to buy it.  I don't care what the dev is telling you.  His track record on this game is atrocious.  I want anyone touting the great changes in this game to have a very large disclaimer that this is the at least the fourth time customers have been through this cycle.

As to the term surrogate...

M-W definition - a person or thing that takes the place or performs the duties of someone or something else

That is what you are doing, regardless of what forum or who owns it.  Getting uninformed people fired up over the game is basically being a surrogate for Scott because he doesn't want the flak.  He lets you take it.

[Asid]

Ryan

You give people to little credit. Just because I post about an update, it does not mean they will rush out and purchase it  ::)

I am nobodies surrogate. I am familiar with the definition of the word.  :)

A forum is for the discussion of ideas and making posts. You obviously feel negative about the dev so take it up with him. I am not trying to sell anything. Again, I am just reporting on updates that I see. If you cannot differentiate between a direct solicitation to purchase and some information for interests sake then that is your problem.

Regards

[RyanE]

This first post especially seems like you are trying to sell it.  It looks like an advert from the developer...

http://dogsofwarvu.com/forum/index.php/topic,1273.0.html