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Tabletop Gaming, Models, and Minis => Forum-Based Games => Topic started by: JasonPratt on September 17, 2018, 05:04:17 PM

Title: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 17, 2018, 05:04:17 PM
At long last, the GROGPUBLIC begins!

This will be (as far as I'm planning) the only actual game thread, for playing the game. The information thread (http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=22819.0) can be found at that link. And the signup thread (http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=22911.0) can be found at that link. Both are still viable in their own way.

The starting players will be:

ArizonaTank (aka Larry from the Crisis Grogs, longtime Groghead)
Dave from the Crisis Grogs (Ethel the Frog here on Grogheads)
IncompetentIdiot (a very new Groghead member)
Tripoli (of the Grogheads)

A slot was also reserved for Windigo but I never heard back from you. However: there are still four slots remaining, and if Windi or anyone else wants to join, it will be fairly easy for me to incorporate you as one of the remaining factions (semi-randomly chosen) at any time, though possibly with some game delay before I can phase you and your first senators in.

I have not, at the time of writing this post, generated the starting conditions for the game. This is simply to create the game-thread itself; to announce that I'm starting the game data generation; and to clarify that initial start positions are now closed (although ongoing positions remain open).

Later this evening I'll p-mail starting faction cards to all players, and explain what they do, and when you can play them (which I'll also p-mail reminders about when applicable.) I have sent initial pre-game p-mail checkins to all players, although at this time only I.I. has responded by p-mail. I have left instructions for p-mail usage near the bottom of the signup thread.

I strongly recommend all players either click the "notify" button at the bottom of this thread, and/or drop an initial post so that (if your forum account is set up to do so) your designated email address will receive updates for activity here. (...maybe. The forum engine gets a little squirrely about this.)

Off to start my work now! May you all keep the Republic alive against the slings of outrageous fortune!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 17, 2018, 06:19:31 PM
No players expressed any faction preferences (for or against).

I've now reached the point where I've dealt out the first senators and so formed the Player order around the table, as well as having assigned the four earliest factions. (Other players will be assigned to factions around the table whenifever they join in.)

I'll reveal the first senator families per se later tonight as I finish setup. Until then:

I.I., you drew the oldest average families, and so they formed THE ARISTOCRAT FACTION. You'll be Player 1.

AzTank and Tripoli's initial senators tied on Military score; and the Frog (Dave? Ethel? not sure what to call you here) tied them both on Influence. (Which is good: that means the factions will be pretty well balanced.)

But AzTank's senators have the highest remaining loyalty, so they formed THE CONSERVATIVE FACTION. You'll be Player 4.

This leaves Tripoli's senators with the highest remaining Military rating, so they formed THE MILITARIST FACTION. You'll be Player 2.

By deduction, this leaves the Frog with (aptly) the green Player 3, as his senators form THE PLUTOCRAT FACTION.

Everyone can check your Faction specialties starting back here in the Introduction thread. (http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=22819.msg628783#msg628783)

Factions are permanent throughout the game.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 17, 2018, 08:52:53 PM
TURN ZERO
---------

Status: the Republic starts with 0 Unrest, and with 30 Talents in the Roman Treasury. Income later in Turn One will be another 30 Talents. The 1st and 2nd Legions have been raised. Rome has enough manpower to raise another 5 Legions, potentially 7 maximum.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7013/YdLmVh.jpg)

The 1st Latin War is active, with the Enemy Leader Tarquinius Superbus. (Historically, this War represents Tarqy's attempt at taking back the kingship of Rome after the SPQR, the Senate and People of Rome, threw him out; but it also sort of represents the attempt of nearby Latin towns to secede from Roman rule, already established by the Roman kings. The prologue designer has intentionally conflated about three wars together here, since Tarq's actual attempt was rather lackluster.) It has a strength of 3 (2+1) thanks to Tarqy, who also improves the Disaster and Standoff chances.

If you can defeat this war, Tarqy will also be discarded, and Rome will gain 10 Talents. Defeating this war will also create Tax Farming Concessions 1 and 2 (allowing them to be played).

This War costs 10 Talents per Revenue Phase. Your Active Legions (whether on campaign or not) will cost 4 Talents (2x2). Basic net Roman income during Turn One will be 30 - 10 - 4 = +16 Talents.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/9914/SSK2Im.jpg)

Currently, only the Statesman Lucius Junius Brutus (#10a), is waiting in the Forum. He will be assigned to whichever Faction first persuades Family 10, the Junii, to join. (If we had had one more player, or more, he would have been assigned automatically to whoever drew him, and would have been the starting Consul; but he won't grant that ability now.) He has the ability to nullify Standoffs and Disasters, if assigned to fight the 1st Latin War. I'll remind players about him once he becomes relevant.

Since we're starting with only 4 players, I have dealt out everyone 2 Faction cards. You should have each received a p-mail from me by now, detailing what you've drawn, how to use them, and when that's possible. You may reveal as many of your Faction cards as you want to anyone, at any time, in any way; but I'll always 'give' them to you privately first. I'll also let you know when you're over your hand limit (5 cards) so you can think about discarding, playing, or donating to another Player (perhaps for considerations! :D) You may trade or donate Faction cards at any time after the end of the first Turn; but they will not come into play until the end of the Turn. I'll let you know when. (If you trade privately, I'll keep them turned down, but you need to send me a p-mail to let me know so I can keep track of the game status!)

Faction starting information comes next.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 17, 2018, 09:38:33 PM
Other than any unplayed (or unrevealed) Faction cards, everything else in the game is public information. I've already given the starting stats for the Republic per se (30 cash, 30 income coming, 1 War and 1 Enemy leader active, Unrest 0, two Legions active, five more Legions potentially. The war will cost 10 talents this turn, your legions 2x2=4 more.)

I.I. will be the Aristocrats. (I linked to everyone's special abilities upthread, but I'll keep track of them and remind y'all where appropriate. I highly recommend Players keep their own notes along the way, tho!)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/6735/Ros700.png)

You're starting with Cornelius and Valerius. 0 Faction cash. Together their Oratory skills mean you control 5 votes in the Senate. Their total Influence is 10. You've got enough influence to trigger your knights' special ability (but almost no one starts with any knights, you included). The snapshot should show your senators stats well enough.

As a recap for you and other players (now or potentially):

Mil = Military. This skill lets you double the effectiveness of an equal number of legions or fleets. So if Cornelius with Mil 4 was leading an Army of 4 Legions, they'd fight at 4x2=8 power. Under Valerius, with 1 Mil, only one of those Legions would fight at double strength, so the total power would be 3 + (1x2) = 5, not 8. On the other hand, if Cornelius was leading 5 Legions, one of them wouldn't be doubled, so their strength would be 1 + (4x2) = 9, not 10. Mil skill represents logistic and other management factors, so applies (for the game) equally to legions or fleets. (It does not apply to inherent Province strength or provincial militias however. It does apply to Veteran Legions! -- but all those will come later, if we survive that long. ;) )

Ora = Oratory. This mostly tracks how many other generic (invisible) senators will vote with the senator (minimum 1 for the senator himself, of course). It also sometimes affects dice rolls.

Loy = Loyalty. This affects how hard it is to get a senator to move into or out of a Faction. Corny and Val are pretty dang loyal! (They would have made a good Conservative Faction, too.) This early in the game, it's nearly impossible to root out a senator once he's attached to a Faction.

The picture of a stack of coins just shows where the personal treasury of each senator will eventually be. They usually start with none (including all these senators), although sometimes there are inherited chips.

Pop = Popularity. Almost every Senator and Statesman starts with 0, which is neutral. This can go up or down, to a limit of 9. It mainly affects certain dice rolls. If we get a Populist Faction player, it also affects how many extra votes his senators can count on!

Inf = Influence. This is the ultimate scoring factor of the game, and also affects dice rolls and some other things. For I. I., as the Aristocrat player, having more Influence than any other Faction triggers his main knight special ability! -- doubling their votes on any topic pro or con! Influence is the main way a senator might win the game for his Faction alone, too, by being appointed or elected Consul for Life; but that won't be a factor until the Early Provincial Era starts.

Last but not least, the Knights are not-quite-totally-generic invisible senators who act as minions for your Senators or Statesmen. Each knight always brings at least 1 extra vote for his senator; and also at least 1 extra Talent of income. Knights are heavily connected into the special abilities of most factions, which usually (but not always) involve doubling the voting power of a Faction's knights under various circumstances. I.I.'s knights, as noted, will double their votes on any topic as long as the Aristocrats have the most Influence total.

Moving on more quickly to the other players, after that catchup information.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 17, 2018, 09:41:21 PM
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/122/NgCIMP.png)

Here's Tripoli as the MILITARIST faction. He was formed by Julius and Manlius. Together their Oratory controls 5 votes, and they have 8 Influence total. Not much more to say about them yet.


(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/8708/GRmNK2.png)

The Frog as the PLUTOCRAT faction gets to start with 2 cash in his faction treasury! -- as well as 1 free Knight you'll be able to assign to any senator soon! (He's the only Faction who gets this starting bonus.) As if that wasn't enough, Fulvius there won the draw for being the first Roman Consul! -- which ticked up his influence a little. (Usually it provides a bigger boost, but Fulvius won't be Consul for long, just long enough to start the first Senate Phase and deliver the State of the Republic address. More on that later.) Even though he's only a temporary Consul long enough to get the Republic started, he'll always be a "Prior Consul" (like any other consul), so will be eligible for election to a special office later in the game once that unlocks. He can also be elected Consul again, but no one can be a consul two turns in a row (unless literally all other senators are dead perhaps!)

Anyway, they also control 5 votes right now, and 9 total Influence. But once the Frog assigns his free knight, that will add 1 vote to the total. So he's about to have 6 votes.

Since the Plutocrats control the Consul, they also have the Highest Ranking Available Officer in Rome, and so will get to go first on any cycle of players around the table. This will be relevant very soon.


(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/3803/WPNTwH.png)

ArizonaTank gets to be the CONSERVATIVE FACTION, with Fabius and Furius down there. Together they also control 5 votes (this tie across all the Factions is a little unusual even at the start of the game), but only 8 Influence.

That's enough to chew over for tonight, and perhaps to inspire some questions.

Tomorrow afternoon, I hope to explain the choices each player can make at this time. (There aren't many, but they're important.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 18, 2018, 08:02:14 AM
So, each Player now gets to make a few choices for Turn Zero.

Since none of these choices affect anyone else, you'll be making them simultaneously, which for asynch means any of you can post your choices whenever you want, in any Player order. You can also change your mind and do something else, up to the point where I start Turn One with the mortality chit draw. (Obviously you can't make any revealed Faction cards secret again. ;) But you can take them back and save them for later.)

You can also each make your choices themselves in any order -- this time. (Often choices have to be made in a specific order, and I'll tell you when.)

Everyone's choices boil down to two things. All choices here cost nothing. (Most of your choices in the game will cost nothing. I'll let you know if there's a cost to pay; if I don't you can assume it's free.)


CHOICE 1.) You can now play any VALID Concessions and/or Statesmen from your Faction cards, onto any of your senators. I will have explained to each of you already, by p-mail, which of your cards are valid right now (and which have to be saved until later, and generally until when, and why.)

Concessions are always played directly onto any senator, and any senator has no limit to the Concessions he can have. However, most Concessions are locked this early in the game. The only unlocked Concessions are Harbor Fees and Mining. Locked Concessions don't "exist" yet in the game, but if you hold onto the card you'll get first dibs once it does exist. Concessions give your senator extra income during certain events, usually the Revenue Phase.

You can also play any Statesmen to your Faction as long as someone else doesn't already have a senator from his Family in play.

If you've got his family in play, you'll upgrade that family Senator into the Statesman -- basically revealing that this guy was ta-daaaa this Statesman all along.

If no one has his family in play yet, your Statesman just becomes a distinctly new senator for your Faction; and if his Family ever shows up before he dies, you'll pick up his family underneath his card automatically.

There's a special Statesman in the Latin Era who's a generic military leader: all he really does is give one of your Senators a +2 buff to military skill (5 max).

This choice is optional. You can wait until later. The next time you'll be able to play Statesmen and/or Concessions, will be in the final Phase of Turn One.

No other Faction cards can be played yet.

If you can't play a card, you don't have to reveal you can't play it. Just say you aren't playing any cards, or you're only playing X and holding the other one.


CHOICE 2: Each of you must choose one of your own senators as your Faction Leader. This is mandatory. (If you only had one senator left, he'd be Faction Leader by default.) If you can and do play an independent Statesman senator, you can make him your Leader; or any other senator in your Faction, no restrictions.

A Faction Leader gets at least three benefits (for as long as he remains the Leader): he earns an extra 2 Talents during the Revenue Phase (coming up soon); he can't be Persuaded to join any other Faction by any means; and if he dies, you'll get his family card back immediately as a fresh new vanilla Senator (no chips yet) to be the new Faction Leader. Note that a Statesman still dies and leaves the game permanently, but as long as he has his associated family then you'll get the family card back as a new vanilla Senator. If he has no family support yet, he just dies, and you'll have to appoint another of your senators as Leader immediately.

During your round in the Forum Phase (coming soon), you can simply declare any of your current senators the new Faction Leader. Until that time each turn, though, you're committed to that senator being your Leader.


The Plutocrat Faction gets a 3rd unique choice: you must assign one free Knight to any one of your senators. This is mandatory but there are no drawbacks, only benefits. One of your senators will get a minion, for free, before anyone else!  :D Your chosen senator will get the normal 1 more vote in the Senate (per knight), and because you're the Plutocrats each of your knights, including this one, will earn 2 extra Talents instead of 1 extra during the Revenue Phase (coming up soon).


So the two (or for the Frog, three) choices are pretty simple to implement: "I'm playing this or these cards; and/or holding my other cards. And (for the Plutocrats) I'm assigning my free knight to this senator. And I'm making this senator my Faction Leader." The end.  O:-)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 18, 2018, 08:11:36 AM
Oh, in case someone is wondering: your Faction Leader is a post completely independent of any other office in the Republic, and in fact doesn't count technically as a major or minor Office. There's only one Office in the game right now, the Roman Consul, currently held by Fulvius of the Plutocrats. The Frog can make him Faction Leader, or any of his other senators -- this has no effect on his office at all, or vice versa.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on September 18, 2018, 10:51:28 AM
I will play Camillus
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 18, 2018, 11:36:40 AM
Who will be your Faction Leader?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on September 18, 2018, 04:35:21 PM
I will play Appius, assign him a knight and make him my faction leader. 
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 18, 2018, 05:38:40 PM
Here are EthelFrog's results:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/2838/OOE7Mf.jpg)

His Claudian senator turns out (by playing this Statesman from his family) to be the famous Appius Claudius, changing the stats to Mil 1, Ora 5, Loy 9, Pop 0 (neutral), and Inf 5. Appius sucks at combat management, but he can still prevent Standoff or Disaster rolls if he's sent to fight the 1st Latin War. Also, as long as he's alive (and not in Captivity), he adds +2 to Repopulation Rolls, which helps Families raise up new Senators after their prior scions have died. (We'll see more of this later in the game, after we've had some deaths in the Families. ;) )

With Appius now in play (taking over the position from the generic Claudian Senator), and with the free knight now assigned (to Appius), the Plutocrats now have a tally of 8 normal votes, and a total influence of 10, tying with I.I.'s Aristocrat Faction (and negating I.I.'s special knight ability for now).


Oh, also: all Players have a little pawn the color of their Faction, which designates the declared Faction Leader visually. So that's why Appius has a green pawn now.

I'll adjust for AzTank's card play in a minute.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on September 18, 2018, 05:43:43 PM
I'll play Quinctius Cincinnatus as well as the Harbour Fees concession on Valerius. Cornelius will be my Faction Leader.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 18, 2018, 06:06:07 PM
AzTank plays a Statesman from his hand, morphing his generic Furian Senator into the historical Marcus Furius Camillus.

(Note to self, find photo of Riddick and composit that onto Cam's card...  :D )

This changes his stats to Mil 5 (the best natural Mil score); Ora 3, Loy 8, Pop 0, and Inf 5. Aside from being a logistical genius, Cami will also void Disasters and Standoffs if he gets deployed in a war against the nearby city of Veii (Rome's first major competitor, more on them later.)

This doesn't change the Conservatives' normal vote tally, but does push their total Influence up to 10, tying the Plutocrats and the Aristocrats.

AzTank has yet to choose a Faction Leader. (So you can see the little brown pawn standing on the normal vote counter.)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/639/EoIB2W.jpg)


I'll catch up with I.I.'s choices next.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 18, 2018, 06:34:11 PM
I.I. played both of his starting Faction cards, providing a nice couple of rule illustrations along the way!

This time I'll post his table before commenting:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/6526/Ufvd8O.jpg)

You'll notice his Statesman, Quinctius Cincinnatus, didn't morph anyone. That's because Cinc's family (#18 the Quincies) doesn't exist politically yet: their card isn't out on the table anywhere.

If someone else had already picked up a generic Quinctius for their Faction, I.I. would not have been able to play Cincinnatus (yet). If I.I. already had him, he'd morph into Cinccinnatus. But since the family doesn't exist anywhere yet, Cinc comes into play as a 3rd senator for the Aristocrats! (...a little ironically, since their family is late enough to be listed as #18. But also anti-ironically, since their ancestor was Cincinnatus, after which they didn't do much politically for a while!)

As you can see, Cinc has stats of Mil 5, Ora 2, Loy 9, Pop 1 (!), and Inf 1. He doesn't have much Oratory skill and less influence, but he kicks ass strategically, and he's one of the only Statesmen who start out with more than neutral Popularity!

He also voids Disasters and Standoffs for two separate Wars, the Aequian and the Volsician. And while his Oratory and Influence are weak, they still contribute enough to kick the Aristocrats back up to Influence 11 (which would activate their knight special voting ability) and tick up their normal votes in the Senate to 7.


I.I. also drew, and played, one of the only two currently-unlocked Concessions: the Harbor Fees (representing Rome's port colony of Ostia at the mouth of the Tiber river). As long as Valerius is alive (and doesn't get investigated for corruption successfully, which no one has to worry about for a while), he'll pick up an extra 3 Talents (and a minor corruption marker) automatically during every Revenue Phase (which is coming up soon). Concessions can never be permanently lost as long as the Republic stands; once they're freed up (or destroyed and then respawned), the Senate can vote for another senator to have them.

And as I.I. noted, Cornelius is now his Faction Leader.


I.I. and the Frog have fully played their rounds; AzTank mostly but you still need to declare a Faction Leader. We haven't heard publicly from Tripoli yet on either of his choices, but this Phase is moving along nicely (considering we're in the tutorial).  O0
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on September 18, 2018, 06:35:59 PM
I choose the new guy, Camillus to be the faction leader
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 18, 2018, 06:40:08 PM
Done! -- mod updated.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on September 18, 2018, 07:08:25 PM
I will play the Military Leader/ Statesman onto Manlius, giving him a military rating of 5 (3 +2 for the military leader card).  Manlius is my faction leader.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 18, 2018, 08:13:44 PM
And there's the Latin Era Military Statesman. (This is unique to the Latin Era; all other Statesmen are specific historical characters.)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/1295/40GG9B.jpg)

The Militarists retain their normal vote count and their total Influence.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 18, 2018, 08:30:05 PM
This ends Turn Zero: quite a few new concepts to think about, but the choices themselves were pretty simple.

Henceforth each Turn will have seven Phases, some of which are fully automatic. I'll see if I can run the Mortality Phase and the first segment of the Revenue Phase tonight, but I may not be able to give reports about results until tomorrow afternoon.

During the second section of the Revenue Phase, everyone will go around the table in clockwise order, starting with the Plutocrats (because they've got the Highest Ranking Available Officer currently), and make (probably only) two pretty simple choices about how to manage your cash so far. As the game unlocks and your Factions become more wealthy, more options for the Revenue Phase will unlock.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 19, 2018, 05:51:54 PM
TURN ONE -- MORTALITY PHASE
---------------------------

The Mortality Phase is fully automatic, so I only have to report results.

It amounts to only two events. The first is the Activation of (some) Immanent Wars, but there aren't any right now.

The second is drawing a family chit from what is sometimes affectionately nicknamed "the death bag", because usually chits are drawn to see if anyone dies -- and not only in this phase! (It does have other uses, like randomly assigning the first Roman Consul, which we've done already.)

This turn, someone from Family 24 died. But they aren't politically active yet, so no effect.

The end, moving on!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 19, 2018, 05:56:56 PM
TURN TWO -- REVENUE PHASE
-------------------------

This Phase each turn has three segments (at least in asynch, where I've ported a few around to make things easier for players and for me). The first and third are fully automatic.

In the first segment, I generate all the automatic revenue for each Faction, which I'll report as we go through the second segment.

In the second segment, each player in turn around the table, starting with the HRAO's player, makes several necessary and optional choices for managing your cash. Early in the game this amounts to only two fairly simple choices, but others unlock as your Faction grows more wealthy, and as the game's history progresses.

Since we're in the tutorial section of the game, I'll discuss or remind about cash locations. Location 1 is the umpire's bank, which has infinite cash (but I can't use it for myself or to help anyone).

Location 2 is the Republic's Treasury. This is whence Rome pays its bills. You should assume any expense to the Republic must be paid from here, unless I say otherwise. All players will LOSE THE GAME (normally) if Rome has to pay an expense from 0 or less cash.

Location 3 is each Faction's Treasury. This is used for various purposes which I'll talk about as we get to them, but early in the game these are few and not very important (yet). Very roughly speaking it's money players give each other directly, and for use in some limited emergencies specific to Factions -- not for Republic emergencies! (In the board game, this money is semi-secret, but not for asynch: I'm reporting it all publicly.)

Location 4 is each senator's Personal Treasury. This money is kept on your senators' cards. Only that senator can spend that money. It also makes senators more difficult to move into a new Faction from wherever they are -- until they spend their personal cash, of course. ;)

At this point in the game, no senator has any cash (although that will change for the guy who got the Mining Concession early!); and the only Faction (player) with any cash is Ethel the Frog, because he's the Plutocrats and they're good at that kind of thing.  :))
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 19, 2018, 06:03:48 PM
We'll start with the Plutocrats first, since one of the Frog's senators is the (straw) Roman Consul, thus the highest ranking available official (the HRAO). The order clockwise afterward will be AzTank's Conservatives; I.I.'s Aristocrats; and then last (this turn) will be Tripoli's Militarists.

Ethel, here's your accounting:

Starting cash: 2
Personal cash: +0
(each senator's personal cash is temporarily gathered up in the Faction total)
From Faction Leader: +3
Total from the other one senator: +1
(each other senator contributes 1 Talent)
Total from all Knights: 1 knight x 2 Plutocrat ability = +2
New Faction total: 8 cash.

You now have two choices to make (as will each player in their round), in this order:

1.) How much cash will you keep in your Faction treasury, and how much will you disburse back to each senator?

2.) Will any of your senators contribute to the Republic's treasury from their personal cash, and if so how much? (Note: this cannot be done from Faction cash!)


Some points of consideration, for everyone as well as for the Frog: Rome currently has 30 cash, and will soon have another 30, minus 4 total cash for Legion upkeep (2 x 2 legions), minus 10 cash for the one Active War. If nothing else happens, Rome will have 46 cash at the end of the Revenue Phase. Raising more Legions to Active costs 10 talents each, later during the Senate Phase. (Once active they cost 2T each turn, here in the Revenue Phase's third segment.) There are a number of bad historical events on the way, and sometime random generic bad events may pop up. Under normal circumstances, if Rome tries to pay a cost with 0 or less cash, EVERYONE LOSES!

On the other hand, and this is super-important: as long as a Plutocrat senator is the HRAO, the highest ranking official currently in Rome (not off at War, or Governing a Province, or Captured), public confidence in Rome's ability to pay its bills will immunize the Republic from shattering under a deficit expense. In other words, right now, since the Frog's Fulvuis is the Consul (and still in Rome itself), the Players cannot lose the game by Rome going bankrupt.

There are some obvious and also subtle implications from this which y'all will have to figure out together in the Senate phase as the game goes along...

Another consideration everyone should keep in mind is that if you want to persuade a knight later (during the Forum phase) to be a minion for one of your senators, the basic chance is 1 out of 6, which improves +1 for each Talent your persuading senator personally contributes toward the bid. So it costs 5 Talents to be 100% sure of getting a knight. But only the persuading senator can spend that cash! -- it can't come from another senator, nor from the Faction cash. (And senators can only persuade knights to be their own minions, not someone else's.)

Lastly, a senator can contribute any amount in his possession to the Republic, but will only earn 1 influence from donating 10 or more Talents. (2 or 3 Inf from other levels but those are impossible right now.)

So again, to the Frog: you've got 8 Talents in your Faction. First, give how much to whom (keeping how much in your Faction bank); and second, give how much to Rome from which if any senators? The first choice is mandatory (although default is keeping all cash in the Faction Treasury, but then your senators can't use it). The second choice is optional.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 19, 2018, 06:11:55 PM
The other players can be pre-planning your decisions, but can't announce them until your round has arrived, in the order given: the Frog, then AzTank, then I.I., then Tripoli.

AzTank, you started with 0 faction cash; none of your senators had any personal cash; and with 2 senators and no knights yet your group generated 3+1=4 new cash. So new total faction cash is 4.

Same is true for Tripoli (whom I'm reporting out of order for topical convenience).

Since I.I. has three senators, they generated 3 + 1 + 1 new cash, and one your senators, Valerius, has the Mining Concession, which now triggers allowing him to contribute 3 more cash (and giving him a minor corruption mark, which won't mean anything this Turn). New total thus being 8 cash.

(All cash units are Talents, or more strictly speaking talentons of silver, but it's easier for me to type "cash".)

You must wait your round around the table, though, to announce your choices. Ethel won't be back until late tonight (Wed 19th), so you may not be able to 'move' until tomorrow. Just check back occasionally.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 20, 2018, 06:05:34 AM
the Frog accidentally posted the Plutocrat move to the info thread, so I'm reposting here:

Quote from: Ethel the Frog on September 19, 2018, 10:04:37 PM
Sorry for the delay. 

I will give each Senator 2, and they will not contribute to the republic treasury.   (You have indicated that the republic treasury can go negative without problem as long as I am in charge, so I see no need to throw any money away.  Plus the treasury seems to have money.)

So, to clarify, each senator gets 2 cash, thus your Faction Treasury now equals 8-2-2=4.

AzTank for the Conservative Faction is up next, with 4 Faction cash.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on September 20, 2018, 01:35:00 PM
I will give each senator 1 each.

Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 20, 2018, 02:35:45 PM
I.I. next -- thanks to your three senators, and one of them having the Mining Concession, you have 8 Talents in your Faction Treasury.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on September 20, 2018, 03:20:10 PM
3 to Cornelius, 1 to the other two.

None to the Republic. Let the plebs pay!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 20, 2018, 03:25:41 PM
That's the spirit!  <:-)

Tripoli up last, with 4 Talents in his Faction. Disburse!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 20, 2018, 04:25:05 PM
While we're waiting for Tripoli's brief move: next up will be the 3rd Revenue segment, which again is totally automatic, and which I'll run in the background. This will report the Republic's own income and expenditures, which this early in the game is simple to calculate: we already know (I'm pretty sure, but I'll check the rules again) that the Republic will go from 30 Talents + 30 income - 10 for the War - 4 for the 2 Active Legion upkeep, to 46 Talents. Plus any senatorial contributions, but as long as a Frogman stays the highest ranking available officer that will stave off any financial disasters until next turn.

After this Phase ends, the Forum Phase begins. Each player will play a round again, in the same order around the table, currently the Frog's Plutocrats first and Tripoli's Militarists last.

During each round, I'll draw one card for each player from the current scenario deck, the Latin Era, which I semi-randomly set up (along with the other Era decks) at the start of the game. These cards generate the history of the game, and you can expect to go through many historical events (but not necessarily in the exact historical order.)

Very basically speaking, if you draw a red-text card, that's a "Faction" card and I'll give it to you face down on any screenshots screenshot, and p-mail you privately about what you drew, and when and how you're allowed to use it. I'll announce publicly that you did draw a Faction card, and then I'll talk about your available choice options for this Phase. (There aren't many this early in the game.)

If it's a black-text card, I'll play that publicly to the Forum, and immediately implement any effects, and explain what's going on, before talking about your available choice options.

Another possibility is that you roll a random event and no scenario draw at all. This also will get played to the Forum publicly and I'll implement the effects and explain what's going on before going to your choice options this phase.

This will happen for each player.

However, the game is set up so that at least 6 rounds will be played, as if there are at least 6 players. What happens then, will be that any players with Faction cash still available will be allowed to bid once (in order around the table) on playing each extra round. That means an extra chance at drawing a scenario card (or a random event); and also an extra opportunity to make those choices again, some of which can only be done once per round otherwise. So you might try to persuade another knight to join one of your senators as a minion; and you'd get another chance to persuade a senator to join your Faction, even if you tried that already on your prior round.

This is a powerful ability. And it's a consideration for keeping some Faction cash handy (although most of your Forum choices will involve spending your senators' personal cash. ;) ) Moreover, if no one bids, then whoever controls the current HRAO will automatically win control of the extra round(s)! -- but the flip side is that the HRAO's Faction must bid at least 1 Talent, if there's any remaining in the Faction Treasury. (He'll still win if no one bids, even if he's broke.) This is a key advantage, in smaller games (like ours currently), to having one of your senators as the HRAO.

I'll remind everyone about this again when we get to it, but since you'll be each playing a Forum round soon I thought I should mention it now while we're waiting.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on September 20, 2018, 08:02:38 PM
Sorry for the delay.  I had an unexpected trip out of town.  I will disburse my talents equally to my two senators (2 each).  None  to Rome
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 20, 2018, 08:40:48 PM
As noted, the 3rd segment of the Revenue Phase this Turn simply ends with the usual Latin Era Turn One net Republic total of 46 Talents (since no one contributed).

After this, things will heat up.  :knuppel2:

Here's a quick snapshot overview before the Forum Phase starts.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/4834/YEwyCT.jpg)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 20, 2018, 09:44:00 PM
TURN ONE -- FORUM PHASE
-----------------------

The Plutocrats hold the HRAO senator (Fulvius the Roman Consul), so the Frog will start the round again.

To draw a card players roll a 2d6. On a total of 7 you'll re-roll more dice for a random event; but the Plutocrats roll 8, so it's a scenario card. (I won't report actual totals henceforth unless someone asks how and why sometimes it's a scenario and sometimes a random event.)

The Frog draws the next active political family, the Acilians! Notice this (like all family Senators) is a black-text card, so it's a Forum card, being played publicly to the Forum.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/4240/ckPYjP.jpg)

This family is pretty meh to be honest -- they don't even have a famous historical Statesman in the deck! (Which you can tell by the lack of brackets around their family number). But even a meh senator can be a game saver (or game winner) if played cleverly. He'll hang out in the Forum (along with Junius Brutus), waiting for someone to convince him to join their Faction. (Brutus will join anyone who picks up Family #10, the Junii, but they aren't active yet.)

Ethel now gets to make one or more or all the following choices, once this round, in any order you prefer.

1.) Persuade a senator to join your faction. You must use one of your senators in Rome, but any (non-Captive, non-Leader) senator can be your target. You can try going after the new Senator Acilius. Your 2d6 roll will have to be LESS THAN OR EQUAL TO the sum of your persuading senator's Inf + Ora stats, minus the target's Loyalty (minus another 7 if he's already in a Faction), minus any personal cash of his, plus any Bribe your senator may give him, but minus any Bribe other Factions (from their Faction Treasuries) may give him. (He keeps all bribery cash in any case, making him that much harder to persuade next time -- but bringing this cash into the Faction if you win!) Also, if you roll too high a total (>=10), you automatically fail anyway from trying too hard! (This by the way makes a sure bet impossible for persuading senators, which keeps players from unbeatably sniping each other's senators away late in the game when cash is plentiful.)

As you can see by comparing his snapshot to your senators...

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/6876/cE9izz.jpg)

if Claudius tried you'd need to roll less than or equal to 10 (5 Ora + 5 Inf) - 7 (Ac's loyalty) = 3. In other words you'd have to roll snake eyes, or a 1 and a 2. That's 3 out of 36 possible rolls, or 1 chance in 12. If you add Appius' 2 Talents as a bribe, you can improve that to <=5, which is better but still not even near 50/50. Fulvius will have a signifiantly worse chance! -- he'd need all his 2 cash just to have any chance at all (with a roll of 2, snake-eyes, 1:36th of a chance.)

The other Players should keep this in mind, too when it's your round soon. This early in the game, it's hard to persuade a Senator to join you.

2.) Persuade a knight. This is a lot easier: >=6 on a 1d6, which is naturally 1 in 6 chance, and it improves 1 point for each Talent you contribute. (Except you won't get control of those Talents back if you win! -- they're gone straight to the bank.) So if any of your senators had 5 Talents, he could pick up a knight without even bothering to roll. You might still want to try, even with your chosen senator donating 1 or 2 Talents (33 or 50 percent chance to win respectively). There's no limit to the number of knights in the game, or which your senators can pick up, but you only get one chance per Forum Phase round.

3.) Choose a new Faction Leader. This is free, and always automatically succeeds: you just declare it.

The choices are totally optional; as will be a few other optional choices unlocking here later in the game.

In short, you can (in any order, nothing mandatory): choose a new leader; try to persuade a senator to join you (but Acilius in the Forum has the only distant chance right now, and if you fail it makes him harder later); or try to persuade a knight to join one of your senators.

Remember, your chosen senator makes the persuasion attempt; and your persuading senator pays for any bribery from his personal cash.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 20, 2018, 09:48:42 PM
If you want to make the rolls yourself here on the forum, by the way, you can type {roll}1d6{/roll}, except using [square brackets] instead of {fancy ones}, and putting the type of die-roll in the middle.

Remember however that if you do decide to go for the Senator, all the other players in order around the board get one chance each to add Counter-bribes (from their Faction Treasuries). Although you'll then get a 2nd and last chance to add any more cash from your persuading senator's personal cash (if any remains, and never from your own Faction cash).

Other players can't counter-bribe your attempts to persuade a knight, however.

Also, Players can't simply follow the Frog after he's done, since I've first got to roll and draw cards or events for each player going around the board. (But you can be sort-of planning ahead.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on September 21, 2018, 05:01:56 PM
Ok.  Claudius will try without spending any money, and will hope for the snake eyes. 
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 21, 2018, 06:56:44 PM
It's Fulvius who would need snake-eyes. Appius Claudius would also win on a total of 3: 10 (5 Ora + 5 Inf) - 7 (Ac's loyalty) = 3 or less.

We'll try the forum dice roller:

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 3, 6, total 9[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 21, 2018, 06:57:54 PM
Didn't work, but you didn't lose anything either.

Did you want one of your senators to try for a minion? And/or change Leaders?

Note that these can be done in any order, and can even be announced all at once since any bribes for one purpose wouldn't be used for another -- unless you won bribing the Senator!

So when it comes other players' rounds, they can just announce all their choice attempts at once (after I announce what card or event happened and resolve that first). It'll save a little time and effort.  O:-)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 22, 2018, 10:28:47 AM
Also, in case I haven't emphasized this enough: knights are, in my estimation, the single most cost-effective power in the game. Even if you spend 5 Talents making 100% sure you pick up each of your knights, they'll still earn their keep within 5 turns (unless your senator dies, or you throw your knights away to harvest a one time extra cash bonus off them), and then they're just gravy.

Plus they always bring one extra vote per knight for your Faction, on any topic (unless the Neutralist player is neutralizing them occasionally). And (with the Faction upgrades I introduced) most Players have activist knights who will bring 2 instead of 1 extra vote (the minion and a friend of his who isn't your minion) under various conditions.

And there is no limit to how many knights your senators can have. There's only a limit to how often you can try for a knight: usually once per Turn, during your round of the Forum Phase.

Players should always try for at least one more knight, for some senator, during your Forum round, even if you spend no extra cash to try it. 1:6 chance for a free knight isn't amazing, but it isn't terrible either. Personally I would have an eye toward saving up and distributing cash specifically to pick up a new knight each turn, unless I absolutely needed that cash for some other plan.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on September 23, 2018, 10:34:44 AM
Oh.  So, I still have the option of trying for a knight?  If the option is open, I will do so.  Using the senator that has the highest chance.  If I need to spend money to affect it, and it is two dice, I would pay to the point where I need to roll an 8 or less on 2 dice.  And, in that regard, the money would first come from teh general treasury, if that is an option.  If I am requesting this too late, that's fine too.  I take it from your post that all of the others can announce their intent in this regard as well at this point.  I don't see any posts from them but am not confident that this web site updates properly. 
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 23, 2018, 12:49:36 PM
No, I think they were just waiting on you, to see if you were finished.

The money can't come from the Faction treasury; it can only come from the senator who is trying to persuade the knight to join as his minion. But there isn't much, this early in the game, for your senators to spend cash on anyway, so knights are a good bet.

It's a 1d6, not 2d6, which makes all results equally probable. But that's good for you in this case, because it means you only need to spend 2 Talents to make your odds 50/50 -- in the sense you were asking about, it means with only 2 cash your spread of results will be from 3 to 8 total, and you only need 6 or more to win.

No stats factor into rolling for knights, so your senators each have an equal chance. In your case, there's no particular benefit to trying to concentrate your minions onto one senator, so since Appius already has a knight, I'll roll for Fulvius.

(By contrast, Tripoli with the Militarists should take note that your knights act as headquarter expansions for your senators on campaign, allowing your senators to more effectively manage larger numbers of fleets and/or legions. So it does make more sense for you to concentrate your knights into one senator. Although there's a risk of you losing all his knights if he dies, and of course if he takes them on campaign then you can't use those knights for their normal +1 voting buffs in the Senate. This game has all kinds of crazy subtle political strategy...  :smitten: )

I'll do the roll in the forum next.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 23, 2018, 12:52:04 PM
In effect, Fulvius is spending his 2 Talents to broaden the success range of a 1d6 roll to 50%. 4 or higher wins him a minion. His cash goes to the bank regardless. (But a Plutocrat knight will earn back those 2 Talents next turn, and after that everything will be gravy for as long as Fulvius survives.)

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 2, total 2[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 23, 2018, 01:12:17 PM
Rolled a 2, needed a 4, so no knight this round for the Plutocrats.

The Frog doesn't seem to want to change his Faction Leader yet, so we're on to AzTank and the Conservative Faction.

Az rolls for a Scenario card instead of a random Event, and draws a red-text Faction card, which he adds to his hand.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/3311/I3sWd4.jpg)

I'll be p-mailing him in a minute to explain what he drew, and when he can play it.

Your choices are the same; you can do none, any, or all of them, in any order you prefer -- they're all optional.

1.) Use one of your senators to try persuading another senator to join your Faction. The only possible target right now is the new family Senator Acilius (see prior snapshot for his stats). Your only senator who might possibly succeed is your Statesman Camilus, but his Ora + Inf stats only add up to 8 against Ac's loyalty of 7, so you'd need to roll a total of 1 on 2d6 which is impossible -- but Camilus only has 1 Talent in his personal treasury. If he adds that as a bribe (and if none of the other players counter-bribe you from their combined Faction Treasuries!) then you've still only got an absolutely minimum 1:36 chance (rolling snake eyes). Personally I don't recommend it.

2.) Choose one of your senators to try to persuade a knight to join as his minion. Each of your senators has only 1 Talent, so your best chance is no better than 33% (5 or 6 out of 1d6.) You should however still try for one of your senators even if you don't spend any cash.

3.) Choose to continue with Camillus as your Faction Leader, or switch to Fabius. (This always costs nothing and succeeds automatically.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on September 24, 2018, 08:48:43 AM
I'll try for a knight with Fabius, keeping Camilus as faction leader.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 24, 2018, 09:43:34 AM
[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 4, total 4[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 24, 2018, 09:58:16 AM
Rolled a four, which fails. You didn't specify you were risking cash, so I won't deduct Fabius' (which wouldn't have won anyway).

I'm at the shop so I can't roll-and-draw I.I's card, but you're up next, I.I. The card/event draw probably isn't going to affect your ability to make the same choices, unless it spawns another family Senator with even less loyalty than Acilius (which isn't very likely).

The same is true with Tripoli, so if y'all want to send in your choices I'll process them in order.

To recap: you can roll 2d6 to try to pick up Acilius, but honestly this early in the game I wouldn't bother trying. You'll have to spend what little cash your senators have got, to even possibly succeed, and the odds will still be ludicrous. You're better off spending that cash elsewhere.

You can (and I recommend you should) choose one of your senators to try to attract a minion. Spending your senator's personal cash on this is a much better bet, but so would be saving up your cash for a sure bet later. Even if you spend no cash you've still got a 1:6 chance so it isn't unreasonable to try.

And you can switch up your Faction Leader or keep the one you've got.

I'll do the Scenario card draw this afternoon for both of you at once, since again I don't think any result will affect your choices much, and this will help move things along. And for that matter, this Turn it'll be okay if you don't go in order: Tripoli can go before I.I, so just whomever wants to go next. (That's because the only choice which your play-order around the table would affect is going for Acilius, and that's near-or-totally impossible right now.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on September 24, 2018, 10:15:09 AM
Cornelius will spend his 3 gold to (attempt to) nab himself a client knight. He'll also remain faction leader.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 24, 2018, 12:34:30 PM
Needs a roll of 3, 4, 5, or 6 then. 1 or 2 fails. 66% chance of success.

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 1, total 1[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 24, 2018, 12:36:42 PM
 :wow: Harsh! A reasonable try, though!

Tripoli's Militarists last.

(Again, I'll do both your card/event rolls this afternoon after work.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 24, 2018, 05:24:41 PM
Okay, I.I. rolled a 7, generating our first random event of the game; and then on a 3d6 he rolled a 10, for...

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/4912/grKcFu.jpg)

Rome loses 10 Talents, down to 36 cash now. Until the event disappears from the Forum (next turn), Persuasion rolls add +1 (which makes persuasion to join a faction a little easier!) but all other rolls subtract 1. (I'm unsure "initiative" rolls are even a thing anymore in this edition of Republic of Rome, but the prequel expansion was made back during the original edition. I'll keep it in mind if we get to an initiative roll, but my massive rule flowsheet doesn't mention initiative at all.)

I.I.'s persuasion roll would still fail at 1+1=2, unfortunately: he needed 4.

Tripoli could keep this in mind for his persuasion rolls however!


Tripoli rolls a scenario card, and draws a Faction card which he puts face down on his sideboard:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/1825/upVRnx.jpg)

I'll be sending him a p-mail soon to explain what he drew and when he can use it.

Tripoli's Militarists are up for trying to persuade Acilius (I strongly advise against it); trying to persuade a knight for one of his senators (I always advise for this, but spend cash carefully); and/or assigning a new Faction Leader.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on September 24, 2018, 05:36:36 PM
Julius will roll to get a knight, and spend 2 talents to increase the odds
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 24, 2018, 05:42:16 PM
While we're waiting for Tripoli's Militarists, the rest of you can be pondering whether you intend to bid any Faction cash (not from senators personal treasuries) on the 5th and/or 6th round.

Tripoli won't be able to because he has no cash.

The Frog (who will start the bid) has 4, AzTank has 2, and I.I. (who will end the bid on each extra round) has 3 cash.

However, Ethel, who has the HRAO senator, must bid at least 1 Talent for each extra round if he has any cash remaining. And if no one bids at all, the HRAO's player automatically wins. So if y'all do nothing, he'll get two extra rounds and go down 2 Faction cash to 2 remaining.

That doesn't mean he'll necessarily get two more Faction cards for his hand, of course. He might draw black-text cards, played publicly to the Forum (moving the history of the Republic along), or he might roll random Events; and either of those will usually give everyone the same crisis or opportunities. But whoever wins those extra rounds DOES get extra shots at persuading a knight to join one of your senators! (And extra shots at persuading Acilius if you want to take them this early, which I don't recommend.)

You can make your bids on Round 5 while we're waiting on Tripoli, if you want -- it won't affect his choices. The Frog must declare his bid first (minimum 1 talent).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 24, 2018, 05:43:17 PM
Quote from: Tripoli on September 24, 2018, 05:36:36 PM
Julius will roll to get a knight, and spend 2 talents to increase the odds

The Bad Omen event will add another 1 to your roll, so in effect 3 or better will win.

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 5, total 5[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 24, 2018, 05:50:24 PM
Clear win! -- I deducted Julius' 2 Talents, and added 1 knight. The Militarists normal votes go up to 6. Julius' Mil stat goes up to 5, thanks to one of the Militarist's special abilities.

This ends Tripoli's play for the Phase, since he doesn't have any Faction cash to bid on rounds 5 or 6.

Here's the table and sideboards.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/9933/Tjnqov.jpg)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on September 24, 2018, 06:05:33 PM
One question, would the event have made it possible for Cornelius to persuade Acilius on a 2 if I had tried?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 24, 2018, 06:23:29 PM
Quote from: IncompetentIdiot on September 24, 2018, 06:05:33 PM
One question, would the event have made it possible for Cornelius to persuade Acilius on a 2 if I had tried?

Ah, good question! {checking}

Cornelius has a combined Ora+Inf of 8, and Acilius a Loyalty of 7, so with no other factors that would need a total of 1, which is impossible, but the Omen random event would add +1 to your 2d6... ah, right, no, your minimum roll would have been 3. (Snake eyes + 1.)

On the other hand, knight persuasions need >=6, so adding +1 to the roll helps that persuasion. But it doesn't help senator Persuasions, it hurts those chances: you've got to roll equal to or under <= the target number. (If you add a bribe, you're increasing your target number, not increasing your roll total -- increasing target number gives you more room for success under your target.) And if you roll too high a total you fail anyway, which the +1 makes a little more likely. (This prevents late game players with high cash and influence from instantly succeeding on any senator persuasion attempt against the senators of other players, which would badly unbalance the late game.)

In short: the Evil Omen helps you a little picking up minions, but hurts you a little picking up senators. Proportionately however, it helps you more on knight persuasions (improving your chances by 1/6th) than it hurts you in senator persuasions (reducing your chances by 1:36.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on September 24, 2018, 06:34:22 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on September 24, 2018, 06:23:29 PM
Quote from: IncompetentIdiot on September 24, 2018, 06:05:33 PM
One question, would the event have made it possible for Cornelius to persuade Acilius on a 2 if I had tried?

Ah, good question! {checking}

Cornelius has a combined Ora+Inf of 8, and Acilius a Loyalty of 7, so with no other factors that would need a total of 1, which is impossible, but the Omen random event would add +1 to your 2d6... ah, right, no, your minimum roll would have been 3. (Snake eyes + 1.)

On the other hand, knight persuasions need >=6, so adding +1 to the roll helps that persuasion. But it doesn't help senator Persuasions, it hurts those chances: you've got to roll equal to or under <= the target number. (If you add a bribe, you're increasing your target number, not increasing your roll total -- increasing target number gives you more room for success under your target.) And if you roll too high a total you fail anyway, which the +1 makes a little more likely. (This prevents late game players with high cash and influence from instantly succeeding on any senator persuasion attempt against the senators of other players, which would badly unbalance the late game.)

In short: the Evil Omen helps you a little picking up minions, but hurts you a little picking up senators. Proportionately however, it helps you more on knight persuasions (improving your chances by 1/6th) than it hurts you in senator persuasions (reducing your chances by 1:36.)

That distinction slipped my mind, thanks.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 24, 2018, 06:39:42 PM
I'm going to double-check the rulebook, since it seems odd that an Evil Omen would make major senators less likely to join you, but make minor senators more likely to join you. Then again... maybe that makes sense psychologically? More powerful senators become more wary, but less powerful senators look for security in a group? I know that during the final Crisis Era, major senators are a little more likely to auto-fail their persuasions regardless of bribery, and that fits the same idea. Or am I rationalizing a mistake I'm accidentally making...?

{checking} The most recent edition of the living rules doesn't talk about specific Evil Omen effects, except for their effect on high priests (can't have any of those yet), and otherwise "it reduces the total of most rolls", which is true on the card.

The main Evil Omen card mentions further specifications for provincial income factors which don't apply yet (subtracting 1 or 2 from the total cash acquired, not from the roll per se).

I guess the interpretation stands for now: the Omen helps you a little picking up knights, but hurts a little in picking up senators (among other effects).


(See, this is why the rules for the game are infamous.  >:D )
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 25, 2018, 11:07:02 AM
The Frog is having some trouble seeing thread updates for some reason, but he says (by another route) he bids the minimum 1 Talent.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on September 25, 2018, 02:56:26 PM
I figured it out!  I was clicking "next" at the bottom right instead of the various numbers at the bottom left.  I have a lot of reading to do, but I now know where the posts I have been missing went.  :)

Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 25, 2018, 03:28:05 PM
I think it's possible to go to your account settings and set the forum to put the newest posts at the top instead of the bottom.

Most of us come to the thread by clicking on links which either take us to the most recent post (requiring us to backtrack to see missed posts), or which take us to the first new post since we last visited the thread. But if you've just got a thread link saved somewhere, it may be going to the same exact place in the thread each time.


Anyway, Aztank up for the Round 5 bid.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 25, 2018, 07:12:32 PM
Okay, I've gone back and researched what "initiative" was, and originally players were assigned any extra rounds by dice rolls. Thus, during Evil Omen periods there wasn't any reason to add or subtract 1 (or 2) from the initiative roll.

As the umpire, I think I'll call an audible here and punt back to the older ruleset for this point of the game. Much of the point to a forum game is that players should be able to leisurely check in to contribute -- but when they do, there ought to be meaningful choices worth their time to check in to see if they should (or even can) play. Bidding on the extra round slows things down too much, I think.

So while I prefer the bidding in principal, and I understand and approve why it was introduced in later game editions, I'm going to just roll dice to assign the extra two rounds henceforth (or unless we pick up more players for the 5th and 6th slot).

The Players can always vote to going back to bidding on extra rounds if you want. Maybe later in the game when you've got more disposable cash and it's a meaningful struggle not to just let the HRAO's Player have them!

Obviously this means AzTank doesn't have to bid next, and the Frog doesn't have to pay 1 Talent.

I'll report results soon.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 25, 2018, 07:15:37 PM
Keeping in mind, I.I. (at the upper left) is Player 1, due to being the Aristocrat Faction, even when he isn't the first player in a round, and then going clockwise around the board...


5th round goes to Player:
[blockquote]Rolled 1d4 : 3, total 3[/blockquote]

and 6th round goes to Player:
[blockquote]Rolled 1d4 : 4, total 4[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 25, 2018, 08:09:00 PM
So, that's the Frog and then AzTank again, to finish out the rounds.

The Frog rolled a Random Event, and then lucked out into Allied Enthusiasm: next turn during the Revenue Phase, the Republic will add an extra 25 Talents income to its Treasury! I've added a nice little copy of the card next to the Republic's Treasury to remind me.  O:-)

AzTank rolled a Scenario Card, and drew a Historical Event: Agrarian Unrest.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/9746/6dACZu.jpg)

This represents a drought in Latin Italy in 485 BC which instituted enough public unrest that some populist senators were able to gain political power by pressuring holders of public land to distribute them to non-voting citizens. This wasn't quite the creation of the plebian political groups yet (that would come with the plebian successions) but it was a big step in that direction.

Public land in the early Republic was not held by the state, exactly, but distributed as trusts to leading citizens in the Senate. Worth noting that the Senators were not voted upon by the people at this time, but were brought into the fraternity of the Senate by fellow Senators as an acknowledgement that their families were important enough to be granted the responsibility of shaping the policies of the Republic. The concept was that only the people with the most to lose should have the vote on important matters. Naturally this led to patricians exploiting the non-voting citizens, and so eventually led to public reform as various Senators appealed to the people for soft influence.

In game terms, this one-time historical Event spawns what amounts to a random Drought event, which will add to public Unrest soon, but which goes away in one turn. Unlike most random Events which can have two levels, Droughts can have up to four levels! -- and can be spawned by certain Wars, too.

The Agrarian Unrest also will require the Presiding Magistrate of the Senate to propose a Level I Land Bill for the Senate to Vote on as part of your Mandatory Business this Turn -- which we'll get to later during the Senate Phase.

The card text doesn't say so, but if the Senate does pass a vote for a Land Bill as a result of this event, you'll not only decrease Unrest immediately, but also avoid the bad effects of the two Plebian Successions which will be coming up one of these days! I'll remind players of this when the time comes.

The Frog and AzTank can now make the 5th and 6th round choices, which mostly amount to each of you choosing which senator you want to try for persuading a knight again.

The Frog however can also try to persuade Acilus again with his Statesman Appius Claudius. Appius' 5+5 Ora/Inf stats - Ac's 7 Loyalty, means you need to roll a total of 3 or less on 2d6, but the Evil Omen means the only way to roll even a 3 will be snake eyes. (Rolling a 1 and a 2 would total 4 instead, and lose the attempt.) I don't recommend adding bribery cash to this attempt, but it's still technically possible without cash so won't risk you anything. (You should save the 2 cash for a knight persuasion attempt now or later.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on September 26, 2018, 04:27:04 PM
Ok.  So, I will take the free roll for a 2 for Acilus again, and spend the two cash to persuade a knight.  I am still not clear on the knight procedure.  One of my guys has a Knight, the other doesn't, so I would prefer to have the knight go to the one that doesn't assuming that the odds are the same.  If not, I will take the  highest odds I can get at a cost of up to two cash. 
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 26, 2018, 05:14:11 PM
Quote from: Ethel the Frog on September 26, 2018, 04:27:04 PM
Ok.  So, I will take the free roll for a 2 for Acilus again, and spend the two cash to persuade a knight.  I am still not clear on the knight procedure.  One of my guys has a Knight, the other doesn't, so I would prefer to have the knight go to the one that doesn't assuming that the odds are the same.  If not, I will take the  highest odds I can get at a cost of up to two cash.

In the case of persuading a senator, you always want to use your senator with the best odds of picking him up (that's Appius for you right now). But once you get the new senator he just teams up with your Faction, he doesn't serve a prior senator in any way.

In the case of persuading a knight, the knight arrives to serve as a minion to the senator who persuaded him. And senators can't exchange knights around by any means. But persuading a knight is much easier and doesn't depend even slightly on a senator's stats. Appius has no inherent advantage over Fulvius in gaining a new (or another) minion -- but Appius does have an inherent stat advantage (because of his skills) in trying to get another major senator to join your team. But a new senator won't team up with Appius per se; a new knight will team up with his persuading senator as his minion.

(I don't think the game rules call them minions. I just like to.  :coolsmiley: "Knight" may be technically correct sort of, but they don't function much like we think of as "knights". They're just slightly-more-influential minor senators in the Senate.)

The only thing that makes a difference in persuading a minion, is whether you can add some bribery cash from a senator's personal treasury. In that regard, Appius will have an advantage over Fulvius in persuading a(nother) knight to be his minion, because Appius still has 2 cash in his personal treasury, and Fulvius has none.

So Appius is (currently) much the better bet at picking up a second knight. What difference does it make to you if Appius has all your knights instead of spreading them around more evenly? As long as your senators are all in Rome, it makes no difference either way. If Appius dies however, and he has all your knights, then bang! -- they were loyal more to him, not to you, and they go away. Similarly, if the Senate elects Appius as Field Consul (which might well happen), and Appius leaves Rome to go fight a War, the knights go with him and won't be around in the Senate to contribute their votes for the rest of this Turn, nor until Appius comes back, which might not be for several Turns. (Fortunately, senators and their knights earn income wherever they are, and your knights earn double cash, so you'll be getting their special ability wherever they are.)

Next Turn however, during the Revenue Phase, you might decide to redistribute your cash so that Fulvius can have the advantage (or even the certainty, if you can arrange him 5 Talents!) in picking up a knight, so that you're less vulnerable to having your knights disappear upon an unlucky death.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 26, 2018, 05:18:21 PM
So, as noted above, between their relative stats, and the Evil Omen, Appius has the only chance of persuading Acilius to join your Faction, but only if you roll a total of 2 (1 and 1, snake eyes). And you won't risk a bad bet by using Appius' cash on that when he has better uses for it.

That's a 2d6 roll, and you need a 2 total to win. If you lose, you lose nothing, so it's a safe though highly improbable bet.

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 1, 6, total 7[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 26, 2018, 05:21:39 PM
Craps!  ^-^

Appius also has the best chance right now of picking up a(nother) knight, because he has 2 cash which you spend to help bribe.


Normally you need to roll a 6 on a 1d6 to win. With 2 cash helping, you need 4 or more. Thanks to the Evil Omen helping (by making minor senators nervous and wanting more protection), you need a 3 or higher. Only 1 or 2 will lose. Appius will lose his 2 cash either way.

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 5, total 5[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 26, 2018, 05:28:05 PM
Success! Appius now has 2 knights, and 0 cash.

Plutocrat vote tally goes up 1 to 9.


AzTank's choices, which is really only one choice: which senator do you want to try again for a knight, and if he has cash do you want to spend any to help?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 26, 2018, 05:50:03 PM
While we're waiting for AzTank's choice, let me clarify that this will be the final action of this Phase. Ideally, some number of Turns from now, this will also be where everyone wins the game! -- the final Turn signals during, and ends with, the Forum Phase. (Basically, late in the final deck someone draws the Y'all Win card.  :bd: )

Next up will be the Population Phase, a fully automatic Phase where I'll do some things in the background mostly having to do with public Unrest, and report the results.

After that, will be the Senate Phase: where everyone will decide together, formally or informally, how to deal with Rome's current problems. This is where the voting will happen (if any happens to be needed). This is where most of the Player action happens on each Turn. A new major office will unlock this Turn (currently there's only one, the Roman Consul), and you'll need to vote senators into the various offices (Fulvius cannot stay Consul, though he can be Consul again later), and you'll need to decide whether you want to do anything about the Agrarian Unrest, and how most effectively to put boots to your former king Tarquinius.   :knuppel2:
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on September 27, 2018, 09:44:59 PM
Camillus will try for a knight, spend 1 to help.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 27, 2018, 10:09:25 PM
Camilius sacrifices his last Talent, meaning you can win with a 5 now as well as a 6: a 33% chance for victory.

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 2, total 2[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 27, 2018, 10:14:07 PM
Ick! -- the strumpet Fortuna was not appeased.  #:-)

This effectively ends the Forum Phase for Turn One.

Alas, it's 10pm here and time for old me to hit the sack before work tomorrow. There's an eventful weekend in the Republic coming up, though, as I resolve our first Population Phase (a potentially game-ending phase, but there's no worry about that this time), and then introduce the rules for Players to start working your way through dealing with the Republic's current problems in the Senate Phase!

Check back in tomorrow evening (central US time) for the catchup to the first Senate procedures!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 28, 2018, 04:46:01 PM
The Population Phase has several automatic things happening, some of which won't unlock until later.

For now, what happens is that public Unrest goes up 1 point for each Drought Event, and for each Unprosecuted War. So, starting at Unrest 0, + 1 + 1 = 2. (It's impossible to avoid the Unrest going up at least 1 point on Turn One, due to the 1st Latin War being Active and unable to be prosecuted yet.)

Then the Highest Ranking Available Officer convenes and launches the Senate Phase. This Turn, that's Fulvius of the Plutocrats, as Rome's only current officer, the Consul.

As the HRAO going into the Senate Phase, Fulvius becomes the Presiding Magistrate of the Senate -- for now. The PM function tends to shift around at least once per Senate Phase, including this Turn for reasons I'll make clear soon.

The PM opens the Senate by giving a State of the Republic speech. In game terms, this means rolling 3d6, adding the PM's popularity (0 for Fulvius), and subtracting the public Unrest. The total is compared to a table for results.

Let's do this thing! -- Sic ergo agamus aliquid! (per Googlelatin, which I will assume is a little better than pig Latin)

0 (Fulvius popularity) - 2 (Unrest) + 3d6...

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 6, 5, 3, total 14[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 28, 2018, 05:09:15 PM
14-2=12

The people are okay with the speech, no better no worse. You can live with that!

I'll have to leave to go eat soon. Here's where everyone is at, going into the Senate Phase:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/9087/oiM5aX.jpg)

I do not recommend assassinating each other until I get back (or this Turn at all)...

Meanwhile, the first Mandatory business is to elect not another Consul, but two Consuls: the Roman Consul and the Field Consul, which office automatically unlocks now in the first Senate Phase.

Any senator present in Rome (which is all of your senators right now) can be one of the Consuls. Each Consul can lead one army to war, although if the Roman Consul ever departs for war then the Senate is automatically adjourned -- thus the distinction between Roman and Field Consuls.

The Republic must have two Consuls (unless only one senator remains in Rome somehow). And the nominees must be nominated together, as a package. For example, Julius as Roman Consul and Cincinnatus as Field Consul. No senator who is currently a Consul going into the Senate Phase can be elected as either Consul (so senators can be Consuls on alternating turns, but not sequential turns.) That means Fulvius cannot be elected to either Consular Office this Turn.

Y'all can discuss among yourselves who you'd like. If you reach a unanimous agreement informally, there's no need to vote. Notice (click to zoom if you need to) what the normal vote tallies are right now: that's what each Player can bring in voting power to this vote. (The only knights on the board yet, don't have vote activist abilities at all, so it's just the normal vote tally.) This vote won't adjust any senator's stats, so again if there's a solid voting bloc majority there's no need to go through the formality to vote.

(Face to face it would be easy to just call the vote and go, but I'm adjusting the process a little to move things along in asynch.)

Formally speaking, only Fulvius (thus his Player, the Frog) can actually propose a nomination on any topic right now, including this one. But beware! -- if the PM gets voted against by all other Players, the PM must either step down as PM (he won't lose his office, just the function) in favor of the next senator in line, or he must accept a -1 hit to his Influence. And at 0 Influence, he can't be PM anymore anyway.

The Frog, as the (current) PM's player, can stop all further discussion by calling for Players to vote, in any order the PM's player prefers.

Technically, a Player's senators don't all have to vote the same (yes, no, or abstain), but as a practical matter that's what usually happens.

Whoever wins the next two Consular offices, will each gain 3 Influence; and the new Roman Consul will take over the Presiding Magistrate duties for the Senate this Turn.

I think that's enough for Players to discuss and act on for now. If you have any questions, let me know!

Keep in mind two things though: first, as long as a Plutocrat senator is the highest available officer still in Rome (not out at war), the Republic cannot lose by expensing under 0 cash. And second, only Consuls (currently) can be sent with armies to war.

(Actually designating an army and leader etc. will be done later in the Senate, but it's something to think about ahead of time perhaps.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on September 28, 2018, 05:26:02 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on September 28, 2018, 04:46:01 PM
Let's do this thing! -- Sic ergo agamus aliquid! (per Googlelatin, which I will assume is a little better than pig Latin)

I'm not a Latin expert by any means, but in my experience, Google Translate doesn't really handle it well owing to the language's free word order and complicated word inflections. That string of words is one of the less mangled translations I've seen it offer, but it would literally equate to "thus thus (as in sic semper tyrannis or cogito ergo sum) we should do something/anything". :P
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 28, 2018, 06:46:27 PM
 :2funny:

I wonder why it bothered with any thus-es at all?

Meanwhile, I'll take some updated snapshots of Player sideboards for convenience, so everyone can see the senators on offer.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 28, 2018, 07:12:31 PM
Okay, here's the War that has to be dealt with eventually:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7013/YdLmVh.jpg)

I'll explain some of this in more detail later when I run the Combat Phase (if anyone goes to fight it), but for now what you need to know is that the War plus the Leader (Tarqy) has combat power equal to three Legions, and any Leader (including Tarqy) changes (typically improves) the chances of a Disaster or a Standoff result, which while not outright Defeat for Rome would still be problematic.

Y'all have 2 Active Legions ready for deployment, and another 5 potentially in the manpower pool. A senator's Military skill, remember, allows him to double the effect of X-number of Legions. So if you're only sending 2 Legions to fight, there's no point sending a level 5 leader yet; a 2 skill Leader will get maximum results from your Force.

The Republic has 36 Talents, with a promise from your allies of another 25 next Turn (plus a nominal income of 30, minus 2 for any surviving active Legions, minus 10 if the 1st Latin War doesn't get defeated this Turn.)

Legions cost 10 Talents to raise. You can deploy Legions raised during the same Senate phase.

It's impossible to start fighting against a War without a Consul leading an Army (or Force) up to it. You can send multiple Forces to the same War at the same time, but no Force can have more than one senator leading it (currently, with an important exception later in the game). Multiple Forces at a War must decide among the senators leading them, what order to attack in, or how the Legions will be split between them. (For example if you seriously overpower a war, you might send two strong Forces to attack it, with the first attack led by a Statesman who has the power to ignore Standoff and Disaster rolls, since there can only be one of each of those per War per turn. Consequently if he rolls a Standoff, it wouldn't affect his troops, and the next general would not have to worry about a Standoff result this Turn.)

None of this can be decided or enacted before Mandatory business is concluded (war isn't actually Mandatory business for the Senate!), but electing Consuls will naturally have a bearing on such decisions, so I thought it might be a good idea for Players to be looking ahead to what they can be planning to do with any Consuls you elect.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 28, 2018, 07:16:28 PM
And now the sideboards (which you left-click to toggle bigger), clockwise around the table from Player One (I.I. and his Aristocrat Faction):

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/2074/uNyfc8.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/4540/wtA7Mi.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/9338/4hS31e.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/9519/qyLdoV.jpg)


In case you're wondering, don't worry about the area labeled "Delayed Transfer" yet. Any cash and/or Faction cards sent from one Player to another, will stop there temporarily until certain Phases allow them to pass through to be received.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 29, 2018, 08:50:58 PM
The Frog was away from his computer today, and still is -- he can read the thread on his phone, sort of, but can't reply to it.

Fortunately he was able to text me by another method, so... um, like an oracle, I guess, I'm able to pass on his messages!  O:-)

His first proposal nominates his other senator, the Statesman Appius Claudius, as the Roman Consul (replacing Fulvius); and nominates Quintius Cincinnatus of the Aristocrats as Field Consul.

Their stats can be seen one post upward, where I zoomed into the Faction sidebars (and left-clicking will zoom again a little). Of particular note is that while Appius is as weak a commander as possible (Mil 1), he does deflect any Standoff or Disaster combat result if he has to go out and lead an army himself. Cinc of course is Mil 5. Also, as long as one of the Frog's senators stays in Rome as the HRAO, you won't have to worry about losing the game going broke! -- which by the way means you can risk spending cash below zero to buff up your army early! But beware that if for some reason his senator isn't HRAO when there's an expense below zero, everyone loses!

Normal vote tallies are Aristocrats 7, Militarists 6, Plutocrats 9, and Conservatives 5.

The Frog calls his own faction to vote first, giving 9 votes in favor.

Next he calls the Aristocrats. The Militarists and the Conservatives will finish out the voting order, but note that if I.I.'s Aristocrats vote in favor then they've got a majority voting block (9+7 = 15, vs 6+5 = 11 potentially against), and there will be no point to finishing out the vote (since in this case voting one way or another carries no special benefits or penalties for senators. This will help move things along to the next proposal, assuming I.I. agrees.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on September 29, 2018, 08:57:14 PM
The Aristocratic Faction of course consents to this arrangement.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 29, 2018, 09:00:37 PM
That settles the vote with a majority of Senate approval, and I'll make the adjustments.

The Frog already told me what he wants to propose next if Appius remains Roman Consul, so I'll get to that soon.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 29, 2018, 09:52:10 PM
Okay, here's a quick screenshot update -- click to embiggen:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/3936/A0URGN.jpg)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 29, 2018, 10:06:49 PM
The Aristocrats narrowly retain their Influence lead, but they don't have any knights yet to specially exploit that with their Faction ability.

With Appius as the HRAO, as long as he stays alive and in Rome, the Republic can have deficit expenses. Which may be relevant very soon!

Next up, only one Mandatory Business remains this Turn: the Presiding Magistrate (now Appius) must propose a Type 1 Land Bill, thanks to the Agrarian Unrest Event. (This will also unlock all three Land Bill Types starting next Turn.) I'll talk about this in detail next, in its own post.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 29, 2018, 10:29:35 PM
(Since this Land Bill proposal happens automatically thanks to the event, it's considered already on the table for discussion, for or against -- we don't have to wait for the Frog, as Appius, to officially propose it.)

Land Bills are popular with the people, and reduce a little unrest, but they're expensive. Types 2 and 3 aren't as expensive as a Type 1 to implement, but they require ongoing upkeep expenses each Turn during the Revenue Phase! -- and at no extra benefit to Unrest, either! Whereas the Type 1 is over and done, but costs a lot up front and barely reduces unrest at all.

As you can tell, then, Land Bills are only meant for emergency unrest reduction. But the Agrarian Unrest (due to the drought, which it spawned) counts as a special emergency condition. (And also as the unlock for the Senate ability to pass Land Bills.)

To pass the Land Bill, it cannot only be proposed, it must also have a Sponsor and a Co-sponsor. (This is the only Proposal that needs sponsors, if I recall correctly.) Sponsors don't have to pay anything, they just volunteer to get a little popularity boost if the Land Bill passes.  >:D

Essentially, the first two senators' players to volunteer, get to be the Sponsor and Co-Sponsor. The PM cannot be a sponsor. A Player may announce two of his senators as Sponsor and Co-Sponsor, although there's a special risk of assassination for doing so. (Or rather, any player attempting to assassinate one of them afterward runs one important less risk if his senator is caught trying.) This early in the game, I don't expect anyone to be trying to assassinate each other's senators, btw, since that might easily be fatal to the whole game as a cascade effect!

If no one volunteers to sponsor the bill, it dies on the table, at no penalty to anyone (including the PM, since every other Faction didn't actually vote against his proposal).

The Sponsor senators must of course vote for the proposal, along with the PM, although a Player might decide other senators of his might vote against it for some reason!

Every senator who voted against it, loses 1 Popularity, whether the Bill passes or not. (If it's a Type 3 Land Bill, senators voting against it will lose 2 Pop each.)

If the Bill doesn't pass, there's no effect (except for senators who voted against it losing 1 Pop each).

If the Bill does pass: the Sponsor will gain 2 Pop, the Co-Sponsor will gain 1 Pop, and Unrest will drop by 1. (Other Land Bill types have slightly better results.) The Republic will also have to pay an extra 20 Talents during the next Revenue Phase, which will deactivate the bill. (Other Types must be deactivated, after at least one Turn in play, by a Senate proposal to repeal the Bill. Which will be unpopular with the people as might be expected!

As a reminder, the Republic has 36 Talents right now.

If this particular Type I Land Bill passes, the Republic will also be spared any bad results from any subsequent Plebian Seccession events for the rest of the game! (There are two of these historical events somewhere in the Latin deck, and each of them creates one more Drought event.) So you do have a special interest in risking the cash this early in the game as an opportunity. But then again, at most the Secession events will raise the Unrest by 2 total. That isn't a lot to deal with, whereas 20 Talents is a lot of cash to spend right now!

Aside from possible discussion, the first choice to be made will be whether anyone volunteers their senators as Sponsor and Co-Sponsor (or for the Frog, as one of the sponsors since he only has two senators and one of them is proposing the Bill as the Presiding Magistrate.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on September 29, 2018, 11:50:42 PM
Fabius volunteers to sponsor the land bill.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 07:57:58 AM
So noted! {scribbling notes}

While we're waiting to see if there's a co-sponsor, let me do some subtle strategizing commentary.  :coolsmiley:

First, the fewer Faction/Players there are, the easier it is for the Player with the Presiding Magistrate to engineer a voting bloc in favor of his Proposals. The Frog acted in a shrewd political way to raise the probability (if not the certainty) of one of his senators remaining the HRAO -- even though there is motivation for other Players to keep him HRAO for at least a little while (to avoid financial ruin) -- by picking a good general as Field Consul from a Faction whose votes would be a clear majority together with the Plutocrats. This effectively disenfranchised the other two Parties on the vote (and also sped up the game a little since it wasn't necessary to wait for them to vote). In this particular case, Tripoli and AzTank might not have cared, since it makes good sense -- but then again, right now Tripoli's Militarist senators offer equal advantage (still being Mil 5 each right now), and together they would have made an equally majority block of over 50% votes.

(As a side note, exactly 50% of votes isn't a majority, and so would lose.)

So why propose the Aristocrat senator instead of the Militarist senator? The Frog might have two reasons, among others. First, Tripoli's militarists are soon going to have strong advantages to being Consul, which the Frog may be worried about competing with, and so he's looking to court favor with the Aristocrats as a way of offsetting Tripoli from gaining too much political clout.

Second, the Aristocrats currently have three instead of two senators, and while they don't have any knights yet, their knights have potentially the strongest activist voting powers in the game -- but only as long as the Aristocrats have the highest total influence among the Factions! Sending Cincinnatus off to war doesn't reduce the influence, but it will reduce the normal vote tally, making the Plutocrats relatively stronger by comparison. Though also reducing the ability of the Aristocrats to help create a voting block with the Plutocrats. But also reducing the ability of the Aristocrats to create a voting block against the Plutocrats!

This game, y'all...  >:D
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 08:25:59 AM
Second (yes, none of that was "second" to the "first" yet  :)) ), Land Bills are an example of a Proposal where, if it does go to the vote, we'll have to get votes from everyone even if a majority has been established, because there are consequences for a senator voting one way instead of another. And Land Bills are one of the few Proposals where senators may not abstain from voting. A Player trying to abstain his senators, will be counted as votes against, and his senators will lose popularity as a result.

Now, I was thinking this morning, if I was the 5th Player (the Populist Faction as it happens), I'd be kind of torn (especially as the Populist Faction) about which way to vote. A drought or two from Plebian Succession can be managed easily enough by themselves, but they could stack up, too, from bad luck. So I'd be ambivalent about using this particular Type 1 Land Bill to avoid that problem, no clear yes or no. But I'd be much less ambivalent about sacrificing 20 of our 36 Talents for only 1 Unrest reduction and avoiding a couple of droughts later! True, the Republic will pick up another 30 Talents at the time this Bill comes due next Turn, but that's still (on the net) two Legions worth of cost that we'd be sacrificing. We might be better off having those Legions and reducing unrest (at least indirectly) by prosecuting Wars, since after all too many Active Wars will also sink the Republic! (Unless one of Tripoli's senators is HRAO.)

Admittedly, there's a temptation to rely on the Frog's safety net and run the Republic at a deficit, but there's still a risk we'd be caught with someone else as HRAO when a necessary expense happens to trigger and we're at 0 or under already -- and then we all lose! And also, I can't be a very big fan of giving the Plutocrats more and more excuse to always have someone as Consul (and Presiding Magistrate), because this gives him constantly too much power, which he can exploit to increase his influence faster. And while we may be safe right now from anyone trying to be king, a time will come (specifically when the Early Provincial Era starts, after the tutorial turns are done) when the people may accept someone as Consul for Life who might as well be king, and the Frog may have ambitions of winning the game early by himself by grooming up a senator with enough personal Influence to be Emperor!

So on the balance, I myself would like to vote against the Bill (since senators can't just abstain from voting on Land Bills). But there's a problem: I don't want my senators' popularity to go down, especially into the negative. So how to balance these concerns?

One way would be to go around privately by p-mail and voice my concerns, and try to convince no one to sponsor the bill. (POLITICS!  >:D )

But let's say I have three senators already, Fred, George, and Ron. Ron sucks at Oratory, with a skill of 1 (he can only bring his own vote to a topic), and he doesn't have any knights yet to boost that. I can have him sponsor the bill, and inoculate him from losing popularity, while reducing the chances of the bill passing (because Ron is only going to bring 1 vote in favor, not 3 or 5). If Fred or George have only 1 or 2 Oratory, too, I might announce one of them as the other Sponsor, and so inoculate them both, while the other twin happens to have better Oratory and maybe a knight already. So my net votes count against the Bill, but not all my senators take the Popularity hit. And if the Bill passes anyway, I'd get the consolation prize of picking up some popularity as a result of sponsoring it!

This would be an example of subtly playing with the voting system, to hedge my bets, since Players don't have to make all their senators vote together in a Faction.

(And now, coincidentally, I notice AzTank has Sponsored but not Co-Sponsored the Bill, even though right now he'd be safe enough from assassination's lowered risks, to volunteer two senators at once...  >:D )
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 08:39:39 AM
One more thing which might become relevant for this vote, or if not now then later: I didn't mention it on the prior vote, because it resolved too quickly and this wouldn't have been able to change the result, but when a senator votes -- or when a Player block-votes his senators -- the Player may decide to spend any number of Talents from his senators' personal treasuries, to bribe votes from the larger invisible group of minor senators.

Each Talent devoted to this gets 1 extra vote, on the current topic. That money goes to the bank, regardless of the vote's result, even if someone vetoes the vote (which is an ability that unlocks in various ways later) or an assassination somehow stops the vote (which wouldn't happen for a Land Bill, by the way, but could on some other votes.)

In the recent Consul vote, Tripoli and AzTank could have added another 3 votes by sacrificing all their remaining personal senator treasuries, but it wouldn't have overcome the majority block of I.I. and the Frog's normal votes (even if I.I. didn't kick in his remaining Talent, too.)

This vote, however, is potentially screwy enough, that I thought I should mention this rule opportunity now. I'll try to remember to bring it up later in relevant votes, too.

(I need to update my "Sabrerules" flowsheet compilation a little, but if anyone has the current doc, you can see it at 2.3.5.7.4.3. ...um, you might be able to tell from the fact that the rule is numbered 2.3.5.7.4.3., that the rule list is the maw of insanity, so be warned, be very awarned!)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on September 30, 2018, 09:16:27 AM
I say there's no need to sacrifice the better part of the treasury to momentarily appease the fickle lesser classes. It's best for us all if the land bill dies on the floor. If any one faction is solely responsible for bringing the bill to vote, I will be taking advantage of the reduced consequences for a failed assassination.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 09:47:12 AM
Bold!  :bd:

But presumably AzTank won't be Co-Sponsoring, or he'd have done it already. Though he still has the option to do so.

I.I. has weighed in as not sponsoring, and for practical purposes AzTank has weighed in already (though he might do so again). In order to proceed, we'll need to know whether Tripoli and/or the Frog will or will not be volunteering a senator to Co-Sponsor the Bill.

As a reminder, AzTank could still come back with his other senator to Co-Sponsor the Bill (despite I.I.'s threat). And Appius, having proposed the Bill, can't be Co-sponsor (or Sponsor).

If the Bill dies on the floor from a lack of Co-Sponsor, Appius as the Proposer won't be affected.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 10:13:04 AM
Meanwhile, though I.I. has been studying the rules, I guess I should talk enough about assassinations to explain why he's willing to take the reduced risk.

First, while assassinating key target senators can stop a Proposal in various ways, Land Bills cannot be stopped this way, so even if the assassination is successful the vote will go forward. Of course, I.I. could go after AzTank's other senator now, pre-emptively, but he wouldn't get the reduced assassination risk by doing so, and it wouldn't stop someone else from Co-sponsoring.

Second, there's a basic 33/33/33 percent chance of results from a 1d6 roll. 1 or 2, it's a total whiff. 3 or 4, the assassinating senator is caught. 5 or 6, the target senator is killed. (This can be modified up or down by playing Assassin cards or Bodyguard cards, but I.I. definitely does not have an Assassin card because he has no Faction cards remaining. For every Bodyguard, whether open or secret, the assassinating senator must roll again to see if he's caught, although this won't threaten the target further.)

If the assassinating senator is caught, he dies, with usual results. But the Faction Leader (if he wasn't the assassin himself) comes under suspicion of the plot, and the action must pause for the Censor officer to conduct a special Major Prosecution against him.

However (1) this suspicion is waived if the target was one of two Land Bill sponsors from the same Faction; and (2) there is no Censor yet, so I'm a little fuzzy about whether there can even be a Prosecution yet. There can't be for other crime investigations yet, but naturally an assassination is a special case.

Consequently, while whatever senator I.I. chooses to try the plot won't be specially protected, his Faction Leader will be -- this time.

Unless he sends his Faction Leader to try the assassination! -- in which case, if he gets caught, he dies as normal, and then people FREAK THE HELL OUT looking for conspirators. Meaning I'd draw mortality chits equal to any positive Popularity of the target, and any active senator from the drawn families also dies. But this early in the game, I think AzTank's senators' Popularity is still 0 (which is neutral), so there wouldn't be a witch-hunt for conspirators.


I should also add, although it won't be a risk this time, that if your last lone senator is caught in an assassination attempt (not in a random witch-hunt afterward), he not only dies but YOU WILL LOSE THE GAME! This is the only way a Player can lose the game by yourself.

The other Players can vote to show clemency, and allow you to stay in the game, but even then you have to completely discard and all your cash goes back to the bank; your senator's family goes to the bottom of the senator Curia pile instead of immediately respawning (as the Faction Leader, so he loses the normal protection of the Faction Leader to death); and you'll be temporarily out of the game in effect, until the normal respawning procedure (during the Population Phase before the Senate Phase on a Turn) grants you a new family senator as Faction Leader. (Or until you draw a Statesman during a Forum Phase, which you can validly play during a Revolution Phase.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on September 30, 2018, 10:49:42 AM
Sorry for the delay in responding.  Julius will co-sponser the bill.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 11:47:31 AM
Let it be noted! {scribbling}

The Frog must now call the vote on the Bill, and designate the Faction order of voting. Appius (who Proposed it), and Fabius and Julius, will have their votes necessarily counted as 'for'.

So the count stands thus at (clockwise from the proposer) Appius Claudius 7 (5 Ora + 2 knights), + Fabius 2, + Julius 4 (3 Ora + 1 knight) = 13 votes for.

All senators must vote, no exceptions, for this Proposal. A vote against will reduce your senator's Popularity by 1. No knight activist abilities will trigger to affect this vote.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 12:05:11 PM
While we're waiting for results: this vote, pass or fail, will end the Mandatory business.

The only non-Mandatory business available will be the question of raising more Legions from potential (in the Force Pool) to Active; and then creating a Force or two with the Conul(s) to send the Legions to War.

These are separate proposal types, so must be proposed separately; although if the Frog wanted to create two Forces from the Active Legions, and assign one Force to each Consul, he could batch that as one Proposal. (Normally that would be two Proposals, sending two Forces to War under two distinct generals.)

It will be up to the Frog to make the official proposals in any case. If he decides to send only the two currently Active Legions to War, and proposes that, and someone thinks that's too weak, then he risks Players voting against it! -- but if he wants to blow the budget completely out and raise the remaining 5 Legions (through the 7th Legion) to work with first, and someone doesn't like the Republic's budget being handicapped to keep the Plutocrats in power, then he risks Players voting against that!

Or he can try a more moderate set of proposals. Or talk to people publicly and/or privately before making the proposal.

Mmmm.... politics.  ^-^

Anyway, something to be thinking ahead on while we wait to hear the voting order for the Land Bill and then the actual votes.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on September 30, 2018, 03:43:26 PM
Ok.  So, I would like to call the vote. 

I think we already completed the vote for consuls?  And the vote passed?
Cincinatus told me he wanted to go to war, and would vote for me for Roman Consul if I would send him off to war.  That's why I did it the way I did. 


I have voted for. 
Next the plutocrats.
Then militarists
then aristocrats then
the conservatives. 

If there are any assassination attempts while I am roman consul, there will be consequences.
Assassination is not civilized. 

David

Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on September 30, 2018, 03:55:46 PM
I would also like to hear opinions as to how to conduct this war. 

Currently, inclined to send Cincinatus with the two active legions off to fight. 
And, as you know, I have a promise to Cinciantus that I intend to keep. 
That said, if we want to muster soldiers and/or send more than one leader, I would consider. 

David

Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 04:02:43 PM
Okay, to update the vote tally, I forgot Claudius' 2 knights, so it was actually 13 starting votes 'for'.

Fulvius of the Plutocrats adds another 2 Ora = 15 for the Type 1 Land Bill.

Tripoli with the Militarists are next to vote.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 04:05:43 PM
Quote from: Ethel the Frog on September 30, 2018, 03:43:26 PM
I think we already completed the vote for consuls?  And the vote passed?

Yes, between you and the Aristocrats, you had a majority block, and (unlike this vote) pro-or-con made no difference to the senators' stats, so there was no need to spend time polling the Militarists and the Conservatives. Appius is currently Roman Consul (and HRAO, thus also Presiding Magistrate), and Cincinnatus is currently Field Consul. Each senator gained 3 Influence.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 05:31:16 PM
Let me do a quick tally check, because we may already be past the point where there's no benefit for anyone opposing the Bill to even try voting against it. Primary numbers are Oratory, Secondary numbers refer to knights.

Definitely for already: Appius 5+2; Fulvius +2; Fabius +2; Julius +3+1 = 15.

Potentially against: Aristocrats +7; Manlius +2; Furius +3 = 12.

Okay, we can call a stop to the voting for the Bill at this point. Everyone else might as well vote in favor of it, because that comes with no downside while voting against it will only earn you -1 Popularity per senator with no way to win.

The Land Bill passes.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 05:40:49 PM
Unrest immediately reduces 1 point (down from 2 to 1). A Land Bill chit goes on its reminder square for next Revenue phase (-20 Talents). Fabius' Popularity goes up to 2 to 2; Julius Pop goes up to 1 to 1.

Updated board overview:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/1885/b8tc0R.jpg)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 05:51:48 PM
And the current sideboard zoomins:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/4739/DZw4uA.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/5227/gv3bLo.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/5241/HLyt7y.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/2214/GN9m4l.jpg)



Plus a reminder of the war to plan for now:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7013/YdLmVh.jpg)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 06:20:25 PM
Now, some things to consider when proposing and voting on how to deal with this war:

1.) Wars don't ever attack Rome directly, including this one (well, not in this game anyway). But they'll cost money each turn they stay active, and if you let them sit around too long they may 'team up' with other Wars of the same 'family' and become that much harder to stop.

2.) This war has a strength equal to 2 Legions (that's the 2 in the lower right corner), plus one more Legion's strength thanks to Tarqy (that's the +1 on his card).

3.) When the time comes to fight the War -- all fighting happens automatically as I roll and do calcs -- you'll be totaling a 3d6 roll, to which you'll subtract the enemy strength and add your Force's strength. You want the total to be 14 or better. If it's 18 or more, then you win with no losses, which is the ideal result.

4.) Every war has a basic strength which it will always have for as long as it's active. Later in the game, some Wars can pick up auxiliary strength which can be whittled away. And sometimes you can manage to randomly kill the Enemy Leader which will permanently remove the bonus strength to his War(s), even if his War continues on.

What this means is that almost always any losses suffered will be the Republic's.

5.) There are five possible results to the combat roll:

5.1.) Defeat, on a total of <=7. In this case any of your surviving Legions will return to the Active Pool, and any surviving senators at the War will return to Rome (specifically to the mats for each Player). However the senator commanding the attack will die. Unrest immediately jumps +2. Depending on the level of Defeat, you may lose x number of units in your Force.

5.2.) Disaster, on a total of the specific black square number for the card, replaced by the black square number on the leader's card. Tarqy scores a disaster if you total a 7. You lose 50% of your Force rounded up, and Unrest jumps +1. But your army (if anything is left) stays in the field.

5.3.) Standoff, on a total of the specific gray square number on the card, replaced by the grey square of the leader. Tarqy scores a Standoff on a total of 14 (which would normally be a victory for you!) You lose 25% of your Force rounded up, but no Unrest, and your army (if anything is left) stays in the field.

5.4.) Stalemate on a total from 8 to 13. Your army stays in the field, and loses x number of units depending on the exact result.

5.5.) Victory on a total of 14 or higher (unless the War or its Leader supersedes that with a Standoff result!) The War discards, and the Leader goes to the Curia, while your surviving Legions and their commanders go home (though they won't arrive home until the Forum Phase next turn). There are some other possible results depending on circumstances (getting to loot spoils, and maybe the Leader permanently discards), and you could still lose x-number of units depending on the exact roll.

In any case, if you or your enemy leader isn't killed outright, you both check randomly to see if you die or, in your case, if you're captured.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 06:29:49 PM
Now, what's important to take from all that:

1.) Having a commander who negates Disasters and Standoffs for a particular war, can be important.

2.) You can attack a particular War more than once a Turn, if you have enough separately commanded Forces at the War. On any Turn, a War can only generate one Standoff and one Disaster result, so one strategy is to send two Forces with orders that the D/S voiding general attack first, possibly burning out a D or S result.

3.) This War has a power of 3, so unless you bring a Force of more than 3 power, it'll be a purely random dice roll, mostly weighed against you, since even some victory and stalemate results will be negated (by Tarqy's D/S scores), and only Rome will take damage (even in most victory situations).

4.) Your general will double the power of x-number of Legions under his command, where x = his Military skill. So sending 2 Legions under Cincinnatus will be like sending 4 Legions; and sending 5 Legions will be like sending 10 Legions. But sending 6 Legions will be like sending 11 Legions, not 12.

5.) Sending 2 Legions, even under Cincinnatus, will only make your Force's power 4. Meaning you'll only add 1 to your 3d6 dice roll (4 - 3 War power = +1 to roll.) That isn't much to offset the table stacked against you.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 06:32:50 PM
Oh, and 6.) If you want to raise more Legions to active duty, they cost 10 Talents each, and the Republic has 36 Talents. You can afford 3 more Legions before you go in the hole. Each new Legion will add another 2 Talents every year to Rome's ongoing expenses, remember.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on September 30, 2018, 07:20:54 PM
I'd suggest that we raise at least two extra legions. A +5 or +7 should give us a decent shot at victory.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 07:28:38 PM
Even a +5 (from raising two more Legions for a total of four Legions, under Cincinnatus = power 8 - War power 3) would at least avoid an outright defeat. And Tarqy's Disaster target, too! (Minimum roll 3 + 5 = 8.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 09:31:07 PM
Meanwhile, I have good news for AzTank! ....sort of!

Remember how the Conservative Faction is supposed to start with an extra family Senator?

Me neither!!  :D  :hide: L:-)

But I finally remembered, now, while trying to check on something else. Better late than never.

So I drew the next family Senator out of the Latin Era deck, and the Conservatives can welcome Papirius... who was recovering from a protracted illness when appointed to the Senate, but who has managed to drag himself in finally. Yes, let's just go with that, shall we?

The current overview of the board, and the close-up of the Conservative mat, has been fixed in the above post, including the normal vote total and total influence of the Faction.

I'll make myself a note to give him an extra Talent of Income next Turn, too, to offset the cash he didn't contribute this Turn.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on September 30, 2018, 10:52:11 PM
Could we raise 3 more legions, or is that pushing Rome's finances too far?  My understanding is it would cost us 30, + 10 upkeep each turn, so we could swing it the first turn.  The next turn we would have -20 talents for the land bill, -10 for legion upkeep, and +30 income.  Very tight, but it might allow us to win the war quickly.  Are my numbers correct, or am I missing something?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 01, 2018, 06:34:59 AM
Quote from: Tripoli on September 30, 2018, 10:52:11 PM
Could we raise 3 more legions, or is that pushing Rome's finances too far?  My understanding is it would cost us 30, + 10 upkeep each turn, so we could swing it the first turn.  The next turn we would have -20 talents for the land bill, -10 for legion upkeep, and +30 income.  Very tight, but it might allow us to win the war quickly.  Are my numbers correct, or am I missing something?

I think that's correct. However, if we don't win the war, there'll be another -10 cost.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 01, 2018, 07:36:56 AM
You've also got some Allied Enthusiasm coming in next turn as a donation... I think 26 Talents? I'd have to check upthread.

Don't forget that your senators can donate talents to the Republic Treasury, too, before the bills come due. It isn't a lot this early in the game, but it isn't nothing either.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 01, 2018, 07:44:59 AM
Quote from: Tripoli on September 30, 2018, 10:52:11 PM
Could we raise 3 more legions, or is that pushing Rome's finances too far?  My understanding is it would cost us 30, + 10 upkeep each turn

To clarify, it would be a new total upkeep of 10 per turn, but not an ADDITIONAL 10 per turn. Legions throughout the game only cost 2 Talents per turn, and you'd have 5 (x2=10 upkeep).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 01, 2018, 08:46:31 AM
We may have a new Faction or two spawning in soon! -- "Malize" from the Computer Wargaming FB group at least has joined up to play, possibly someone else from there, too.

The Populists and then the Expansionists are the next two Factions to arise, but I may let newcomers pick from remaining Factions if they have a preference. (I let y'all pick, too, if you had preferences, but no one said so for or against any Faction, so I sorted you based on your initial senator random draws.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 01, 2018, 10:04:17 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on October 01, 2018, 08:46:31 AM
We may have a new Faction or two spawning in soon! -- "Malize" from the Computer Wargaming FB group at least has joined up to play, possibly someone else from there, too.

The Populists and then the Expansionists are the next two Factions to arise, but I may let newcomers pick from remaining Factions if they have a preference. (I let y'all pick, too, if you had preferences, but no one said so for or against any Faction, so I sorted you based on your initial senator random draws.)

Populists are a fine choice, if it helps with the spawn I'd select most popular as faction leader and divide any monies evenly with any remainders going to the faction head
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 01, 2018, 11:00:55 AM
Picking the most popular senator as your Faction Leader is a reasonable idea, but the family Senators (and most Statesmen) always spawn in with 0 (neutral) popularity.

Your Faction won't have any cash yet until the Revenue Phase next Turn, either. But you won't need it either.

I'll probably spawn the Populists in after the Combat Phase, at the start of the Revolution Phase (the final phase of the turn) so that like everyone else when they started the game, you'll have some opportunity to immediately play Statesmen and/or Concessions if you draw any initially.

But if I get around to it, I may bring you in a little earlier to help with voting on who to send to the war and/or how many new Legions should be raised (if any).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on October 01, 2018, 04:14:57 PM
Manlius and Julius both volunteer to leave their plow and the comforts of home and hearth to lead Rome's 5 legions in defense of their sacred city, should the senate require their humble (level 5 military skill).  But only with the greatest of reluctance.....
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 01, 2018, 05:13:58 PM
Spoken like true Romans! -- but the way the Senate works, only Consuls can lead troops to war. (Or the Dictator with his Master of Horse, but that office only unlocks when the War power exceeds 20 or there are 4+ active wars.)

You may still get a chance to punch the 1st Latin War, if Cinc is still there next Turn.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 01, 2018, 05:15:38 PM
While I'm busy preparing the Populists to join, remember that aside from discussion on procedure we're waiting for the Frog to make a specific Proposal about either training up more Legions, or packing up the current 2 Legions with a Consul to go fight.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 01, 2018, 05:58:58 PM
Whilst the Senate deliberates how much force to send with which Consul, the scions of two new senatorial families team up together as the POPULIST FACTION!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/2328/qITDNg.jpg)

The Aurelian family Senators will have the following stats: Mil 2, Ora 3, Loy 7, and Inf 3. Altogether rather a meh family.

The Junius family on the other hand sends the historical Statesman Lucius Junius Brutus! A cousin of the former king Tarquinius Superbus, Brutus earned his cognomen (nickname, the Brute) for pretending to be slow witted, but this hid a careful and cunning plotter, who at the appropriate time revealed himself against the latest scandal of the king as a leader of the revolution to throw out the tyrant and bring the city and its local territories into the government of a Republic! (Although what he originally wanted was to become king himself, cough cough. ;) )

In the game, Brutus has been held out in the Forum from the start, to be given immediately to the first Player to pick up the Junius family. Had this triggered at the start of the game, he would have been automatically the first Consul.

Brutus is no slack, with stats of Military 4, Oratory 3, Loyalty 9, Influence 7, and even a rare starting Popularity of 1! Like Appius Claudius, but with much better Military management skill, Brutus can void D/S results if he's fighting against the 1st Latin War.

As per Malize's preferences, unless he decides otherwise, Brutus will be his Faction Leader, since he already has (a little) popularity to start with. I'll also give them each 1 Talent for their Personal Treasuries.

As a reminder, the Populists farm Popularity (duh). Any time one of their senators gains any amount of Popularity, Malize can add one more free Pop point to any of his other senators. Moreover, while each of their knights will add the usual +1 vote and +1 Talent income, the Populists don't have activist knights. Instead, their senators gain one extra vote in the Senate, for or against any topic, for each Popularity point above 0 (up to the Pop limit of 9). This makes them the only Faction whose activist extra votes are immune to the Neutralist. (I'm playing with balancing this; originally it was going to be positive Pop - 2 extra votes per senator. I might still go back to that if the Populists end up overpowered.)

Perhaps most importantly, as long as a Populist senator is the HRAO during the Population Phase, not only will he get a +4 to his total roll for his State of the Republic speech, but the Republic cannot fail due to a public revolt roll after the speech! -- so if you've got a lot of Unrest you can't deal with yet, his senators could be the safest option for HRAO.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 01, 2018, 07:47:40 PM
Do we have a proposal at this point?  I think it is either to raise 2 legions for 20, which is safely within budget, or 3 for 30 which we can probably afford given anticipated future revenue.

I am leaning towards 2 for 20.  Cincinatus should be able to win the war with that.  But what do others think?  I would like a motion that I can put to a vote. 
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 01, 2018, 08:03:19 PM
I'd be satisfied with two (although another would only improve our chances).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 01, 2018, 09:07:07 PM
Looks perfect JP. :)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 01, 2018, 09:48:41 PM
Let me provide a clearer look at the combat results table:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/9536/RH5RMB.jpg)

(There's a misprint inherent to the board there: the roll is 3d6, not 2d6.)

The options being currently considered amount to this -- do you go to war with 2 Legions, 4 Legions, or 5 Legions? And I think the main discussion is whether you go with 4 or 5 (not merely with the starting 2.)

In a 3d6 roll, the probabilities of which I haven't totally plotted by the way (someone may wish to do some research), the results are a bell curve of probability. On this chart there are 5 Defeat results and 5 Victory results, of equal probability spread on either side of the curve. In the middle are 6 Stalemate results, which also hold the most probable results of a 3d6 total. One point to note is that the results for Stalemates are skewed a little in favor of Rome, in that it is equally probable (before modifiers) that you will lose no units as you will lose 5 units. Whereas the spread of unit loss probabilities for Victory or Defeat results are more equal. On the other hand, overall even the Stalemate results are skewed heavily against Rome, simply because only Rome takes losses! The next time you fight against this War, it will have the same inherent strength, regardless of your result! (Unless you randomly kill Tarqy.)

Assuming you send your most competent Consul, Cincinnatus, who is capable of doubling the power of 5 Legions, you may consider the following cost-benefit analysis.

2 Legion army: costs you nothing extra. Results in (2x2=)4-3=+1 bonus. Minimum result now becomes 3+1=4. You will eliminate the chance of a defeat that wipes all your Legions out, but that result is stupidly rare (1 chance in 216). You will also somewhat increase your chance of Victory instead of Stalemate, and equally increase your chance of Stalemate instead of Defeat. Put a little simply, you'll now have 4 Defeat results, and 6 Victory Results, with 6 Stalemate results remaining at about the same probability as before. On the other hand, most unit-loss results, whether Defeat, Stalemate, or Victory, will still wipe out all your army just as effectively as a total Defeat!

4 Legion army: costs you 20 Talents (plus ongoing upkeep). Results in (2x4=)8-3= +5 bonus. Minimum result now becomes 3+5=8. You will totally eliminate the chance of a defeat. I don't think you can actually eliminate Tarqy's chances of a Disaster, rolling a total of 7: D/S results are checked before adding your Die Roll Modifiers. Your chances for Stalemate are effectively shifted down out of the highest part of the bell curve, and your chances for Victory effectively take over most of the highest part of the bell curve as well as retaining the 'right side' of the curve. Your possibilities of losing up to 5 or 4 units remain (wiping your whole army), but are rendered rather low -- and odds improve drastically that even if you lose your whole army you'll still be Victorious.

5 Legion army: costs you 30 Talents (plus ongoing upkeep). Results in (2x5=)10-3 = +7 bonus. Minimum result now becomes 3+7=10. You still cannot outright lose, and you've now eliminated three Stalemate results, too, including making it impossible to lose 5 units. It's still possible to lose 4 units, but not without gaining Victory. The chances of losing 3 or even 2 units in a Stalemate are crazy low, although your chances of losing them in a Victory are still pretty good. The chances of losing no units at all are very substantial, at least 50% or even little better! (No-loss victory now occupies at least half the bell curve; and also the no-loss Stalemate remains possible, and more likely than any losses with Stalemate.)

Keep in mind that reducing or eliminating the loss of any units also reduces or eliminates upcoming opportunity costs for having to replace those units at 10 more Talents each.


Edited to add: Yang Wen-Li would say (for any fans of The Legend of the Galactic Heroes), that the 5 Legion army fulfills the ideal minimum criteria of 6 to 1 odds against your enemy.  :coolsmiley:
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 01, 2018, 10:34:03 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on October 01, 2018, 09:48:41 PMIn a 3d6 roll, the probabilities of which I haven't totally plotted by the way (someone may wish to do some research), the results are a bell curve of probability. On this chart there are 5 Defeat results and 5 Victory results, of equal probability spread on either side of the curve. In the middle are 6 Stalemate results, which also hold the most probable results of a 3d6 total. One point to note is that the results for Stalemates are skewed a little in favor of Rome, in that it is equally probable (before modifiers) that you will lose no units as you will lose 5 units. Whereas the spread of unit loss probabilities for Victory or Defeat results are more equal. On the other hand, overall even the Stalemate results are skewed heavily against Rome, simply because only Rome takes losses! The next time you fight against this War, it will have the same inherent strength, regardless of your result! (Unless you randomly kill Tarqy.)
Anydice is nice for visualizing probabilities. 4 legions (https://anydice.com/program/11b10) and 5 legions (https://anydice.com/program/11b11). It's interesting to note the tradeoff between the cost of recruiting an extra legion and the cost of rerecruiting any legions lost.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 02, 2018, 08:11:01 AM
Ooooo...!  :D :bd:
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 02, 2018, 10:59:42 AM
Ok. I  propose a 4 legion army for the vote.  The cost will be 20 talents.

OUr legislative analyst says this "4 Legion army: costs you 20 Talents (plus ongoing upkeep). Results in (2x4=)8-3= +5 bonus. Minimum result now becomes 3+5=8. You will totally eliminate the chance of a defeat. I don't think you can actually eliminate Tarqy's chances of a Disaster, rolling a total of 7: D/S results are checked before adding your Die Roll Modifiers. Your chances for Stalemate are effectively shifted down out of the highest part of the bell curve, and your chances for Victory effectively take over most of the highest part of the bell curve as well as retaining the 'right side' of the curve. Your possibilities of losing up to 5 or 4 units remain (wiping your whole army), but are rendered rather low -- and odds improve drastically that even if you lose your whole army you'll still be Victorious."

I vote for.

Next the plutocrats.
Then militarists
then aristocrats then
the conservatives
then our newest member, the populists.

Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on October 02, 2018, 11:00:19 AM
Quote from: IncompetentIdiot on October 01, 2018, 10:34:03 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on October 01, 2018, 09:48:41 PMIn a 3d6 roll, the probabilities of which I haven't totally plotted by the way (someone may wish to do some research), the results are a bell curve of probability. On this chart there are 5 Defeat results and 5 Victory results, of equal probability spread on either side of the curve. In the middle are 6 Stalemate results, which also hold the most probable results of a 3d6 total. One point to note is that the results for Stalemates are skewed a little in favor of Rome, in that it is equally probable (before modifiers) that you will lose no units as you will lose 5 units. Whereas the spread of unit loss probabilities for Victory or Defeat results are more equal. On the other hand, overall even the Stalemate results are skewed heavily against Rome, simply because only Rome takes losses! The next time you fight against this War, it will have the same inherent strength, regardless of your result! (Unless you randomly kill Tarqy.)
Anydice is nice for visualizing probabilities. 4 legions (https://anydice.com/program/11b10) and 5 legions (https://anydice.com/program/11b11). It's interesting to note the tradeoff between the cost of recruiting an extra legion and the cost of rerecruiting any legions lost.

Very nice.  It looks like an approximately 75% chance of an outright victory based on 4 legions, and a 90% chance with 5.  Based on this, and the state of Roman finances, I recommend going with 4 legions (ie, raising 2).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 02, 2018, 11:59:17 AM
(...um, you are the Plutocrats, the Frog.)

So, Appius Claudius, as the Presiding Magistrate, has made the Proposal to raise 2 more Legions (not 3, yet), which will cost 20 Talents now (plus an extra 4 Talents ongoing per Turn).

The Plutocrats apparently vote together in a block "for", so 9 votes for.

Based on Tripoli's recommendation shortly afterward, the Militarists (next in the Frog's declared order) presumably block-vote for, adding 6 votes. Current tally 15 votes for.

Among the remaining factions there are currently 7 (Aristo) + 7 (Conservs) + 7 (Pops) = 21 votes outstanding.

The next Faction to block-vote "For" will seal the vote.

I.I.'s Aristocrats are next.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 02, 2018, 03:03:37 PM
For.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 02, 2018, 03:20:43 PM
That seals the voting majority then! -- I'll reduce the Republic Treasury a little later this afternoon, after work, and add the 3rd and 4th Legions to the Active Pool.

I think the last possible business for this Senate Phase is simply a Proposal to send one of the Consuls (either Appius Claudius, or Cincinnatus -- and everyone has been talking about Cinc) with x-number of Legions, off to War.

I've dropped a note to the Frog.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 02, 2018, 04:07:28 PM
While I'm waiting for Steam to finish updating, so I can get on TTS and adjust the board:

The current edition of the Living Rules explicitly prohibit batching proposals of different types, such as "I Propose we raise two more Legions; and I Propose we then send all four Active Legions to fight against the 1st Latin War under command of the Consul Cincinnatus."

However, the rules don't explicitly prohibit line-voting on proposal batches of the same type (where those are allowed, which is usually, with a few exceptions.)

So I'm going to umpire a rule alteration, allowing batch proposals of different types, in order to expedite asynchronous play (where it may be hours or a few days between players checking in), with the provision that senators (and Factions as a block) can line-vote. Extra vote activist abilities would still apply on a line-by-line basis within the batched proposal.

For example, a Faction might have voted "For" raising the Legions but "Against" them being sent to fight the 1st Latin war under Cincinnatus. Maybe the Faction wanted them sent against some other War on the board, or sent under the other Consul, or sent as reinforcements to a Proconsul already at the War rather than under command of a separate senator -- but still agreed with raising another two Legions.

I think this should help move the game along better.  O:-) I wish I had thought of it a day sooner...  ::)  :P


Well, we can be sure that the Plutocrats and the Aristocrats will vote in favor of sending out Cincinnatus to fight the 1st Latin War with all four Active Legions (because that has been their stated plan, once the number of Legions were sorted out, which they already voted for). And I think we can presume the Militarists will agree, because Tripoli was recommending basically this. (He might prefer one of his own senators go, but that isn't possible since none are Consul; and it would be self-defeating for him to propose the less capable Appius go instead, plus he'd have a hard time selling that to get enough votes from other Factions against the Plutocrat/Aristocrat block.)

In that case, we'll have a presumptive straw proposal and vote already settled; and since there's currently nothing else to vote on, we can safely presume the Frog will declare the Senate closed.

Unless I see some dissension on this from any of the parties involved, I'll proceed along then.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 02, 2018, 04:54:42 PM
Okay, 3rd and 4th Legions raised from the Force Pool (the potential logistic pool) to the Active Pool. 5th, 6th, and 7th Legions remain potential.

Republic cash goes down 20 Talents from 36 to 16.

Cincinnatus takes the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Legions, and leaves Rome to go fight against Tarquinius Superbus and the 1st Latin War!

This reduces the Aristocrat total Influence to 10, and their normal vote tally to 5.

This is an important concept to keep in mind for later, especially for I.I.'s Aristocrats, since the double-vote activist power of any of his knights depends on the Aristocrats having the most total Influence in Rome. Right now it doesn't matter, because there's nothing else to vote on and the Frog (presumably) closes the Senate after the Field Consul of the Republic departs with his Force.

A time will come however when having senators leave Rome to go fight wars or to govern provinces, may significantly affect the chances of certain votes being passed. And if Cinc is still out at War next Turn, he won't be around to vote on any Mandatory Business! -- and would have to be voted back to the Senate for his votes and influence to count on any subsequent non-Mandatory Business. (And then he couldn't be immediately sent back to any War because he wouldn't be a Consul anymore.)

I figured I should explain some of the subtleties here, before going on to the action.  >:D
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 02, 2018, 04:58:05 PM
TURN ONE -- COMBAT PHASE
---------------------------------

This is a fully automatic phase, and is notorious for the rules getting reaaaallllly squirrely, in an attempt to cover potential situations!

This Turn however, everything is almost as simple as possible. There's only one extra factor, the Enemy Leader.

Here's the pre-battle setup!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/4127/uRaFuf.jpg)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 02, 2018, 05:14:38 PM
(As you can see, Cinc brought his personal cash with him. This is only a factor later.)

Time to make sure I've introduced all the numbers, for a basic understanding of the War.

First, some numbers that make no difference. The [18a] is simply Cinc's family number; the brackets mean this family has a Statesman in the deck for this Era, and that's Cinc of course. The white number in the lower-right of the purple "Field Consul" chit, is a print reminder of how much Influence a senator normally gains from being elected Field Consul. This early in the game it's 3 Inf, however, not 5. The white number in the lower left of the purple chit, marks the rank of this office when trying to figure out which senator is currently the Highest Ranking Officer in Rome. Field Consul is 3rd rank. He's outranked by the Roman Consul, and by any Dictator (at #1). He's also outranked, along with everyone else, by anyone elected Consul for Life (i.e. as Emperor, not the same as a Dictator necessarily.)

Other numbers that make no difference include all a senators' stats except for Military, which we've thoroughly discussed already. (A Militarist senator's knights would help him logistically maximize the effectiveness of his units, by increasing his Mil skill, but Cinc belongs to the Aristocrat Faction. In this game. For now.)

Cinc can void automatic Disaster and Standoff rolls for two different wars, but not for this one, so that factor will be ignored.

You can see the 1st through 4th Legion chits aligned along the bottom of his card. (Tabletop Simulator is super-handy for being able to resize and make instant copies of pieces.  :smitten: ) Units in this game don't have a "damaged" state. They're either alive or dead, period. Eventually the Republic will unlock the ability for Legions to earn Veteran status, which is what the backside of those chits will show.

Up to the War itself. The Leader offsets some combat factors on the card, so I've carefully placed Tarqy over them. The number in the lower right corner remains: 2. The sword and shield icon next to it indicates this is Land power, not Sea power: you need Legions to fight it, not Fleets. (Fleets unlock in the Early Provincial Era, as Rome finally expands past the Italian peninsula.)

Tarqy's red +1 means he adds +1 to the War's power of 2. So this War has a power of 3.

Last but not least, the Black and Grey squares indicate the 3d6 totals which will trigger an automatic Disaster or Standoff combat result.

Next up, the actual fight!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 02, 2018, 05:21:01 PM
Total number of Legions: 4
Add the Commander's Mil rating, up to the total of Legions: +4
Subtract the War's Land Strength: -2
Subtract the Enemy's rating: -1

Total is the Die Roll Modifier (DRM): +5

This will be added to the total of the 3d6:

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 5, 4, 1, total 10[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 02, 2018, 05:57:01 PM
10 doesn't trigger an automatic Disaster or Standoff for this War, yay!

10+5=15.

And that's a Victory! -- but with 3 Legions lost. (Scroll up again for the chart.)

Ouch, that will cost 30 Talents to (eventually, on some future Turn) replace. But on the bright side, it won't cost 3x2=6 Talents next Turn's revenue. ;)

This leads to the question of which Legions die, which isn't too important right now since all Legions are equal. But the basic concept (which I've added to the game) is that older Legions may be regarded as at least a little more experienced, and so I'm rolling a die (in TTS since that would be clunky here) for each Legion from highest to lowest number (4th to 1st in this case). Odds, it dies. If I pass the oldest Legion then I start again at the youngest. Once the death total has been met, I stop.

4th lives; 3rd lives; 2nd dies; 1st dies.

One more death needed: 4th lives; 3rd dies.

4th Legion survives. The others go back to the Force Pool.

Victory reduces Unrest down 1, from 1 to 0. Yay!

The Commander gaining the Victory (not prior or subsequent multiple Commanders attacking the War) increases both his Influence and also his Popularity by half the War's printed Fleet or Land strengths (including captured Provinces!), rounded up. So that's 2/1=1 to Cinc's Inf and Pop, up to 5 and 2 respectively. (A Militarist Commander would get an extra +1 to both Inf and Pop.)

For Land Victory, unless against Revolting Province, Rome cash increases by the Spoils number on the War card: so 10 Talents to the Treasury, up to 26!

Other printed card results: victory in this War unlocks local territory amounting to "Tax Concessions 1 and 2".

Normally an Enemy Leader would go to the Enemy slot in the Curia, but per his card Tarquinius discards (along with the War) upon this War's defeat.

All Commanders for this War return to their Faction mats, now being in Rome again. Any uncommanded Legions go directly to the Active Pool, but otherwise Legions stay with their Commander for now. So Cinc goes back to the Aristocrat mat, taking the 4th Legion with him. This brings the Aristocrats' normal vote tally and total influence back up to 7 and 15.

Cinc immediately loses 1 Popularity for every 2 Legions lost, rounded down. So he loses 1 Pop, down from 2 to 1.

He must also draw Mortality chits for each unit lost, so 3 chits! -- but his family number 18 doesn't come up, so he lives.

That takes us through all the results! Dinnertime for me now, and then I'll be back to explain the Revolution Phase, the finale for the Turn.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 02, 2018, 06:50:12 PM
TURN ONE -- REVOLUTION PHASE
--------------------------------------

This Phase's name comes from the eventual ability of Factions to decide if any of their senators will try to win the game by themselves (along with any helpers from their Faction) by Rebelling against the Senate. But that won't unlock for several turns, until the Early Provincial Phase.

So, the Senate has safely shepherded the Republic through its first big year!

This being the first Rev Phase, Players now unlock the ability to donate Faction cards and/or Faction cash to each other, whether for free or for whatever considerations.  ^-^

These donations can be done at any time during a Turn, but the donations are kept Delayed on the receiving Player's sideboard until the next proper Phase arrives. Faction cards can be received now, and any donated now will be received immediately, but otherwise they won't arrive fully until the next Revolution Phase. Donated cash (which can only go between Faction Treasuries) won't arrive fully until the start of any Revenue Phase.

There are a few other choices for Players to make this Phase. While at a board these would be made in clockwise order around the table, for asynch I've decided they can be made by any Player at any time in any order.

1.) If you somehow have 6+ Faction cards, you must reduce your hand to 5 or less, by whatever means, before the Turn can end. You can discard any number of your Faction cards you want to, or trade them off, or simply donate them. No one has that many cards yet (by far), but theoretically everyone might decide to pile their remaining cards onto Malize as a welcoming gift!  <:-)

2.) Anyone may also now play any valid Statesmen or Concessions from your hand. Most Concessions still have not unlocked yet, but Tax Farming 1 and 2 (now that some towns in Latium have been punched down for trying to take back Rome for Tarqy), and the Mining Concession, are playable.

I'll be sending p-mails to everyone very soon to give you a quick reminder whether you can play your cards yet or not. Except for I.I., since the Aristocrats don't have any Faction cards right now!

Once everyone has stated publicly whether they'll play any cards, or not, the Phase and Turn One will be done; and I'll move on to Turn Two and the various automatic things which kick off the Turn.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 02, 2018, 09:51:10 PM
Aurelius will instruct his trusted Servus Corporis, Gneapor, to take steps to collect the Mining Concession the dominus has recently acquired...
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 03, 2018, 05:07:27 AM
Hello everyone, I've sent JP a message and hope to be joining the game soon. I'm currently waiting to be assigned a faction.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 07:41:29 AM
Welcome, Thraw--I MEAN "ERAX".  ^-^

Do you have any preferences among the remaining three? -- Expansionists, Progressives, or Neutralists?

Nominally the next one will be the Expansionists, but I give everyone a chance to declare preferences for or against.  O:-)

I'll slot you in after the mortality draw this afternoon (it'll be 8+ hours from now), so as not to risk handicapping your Faction too much out of the gate compared to other Players already developing their memberships. (Same for Malize, I'll exempt the Populist senators for your first turn.)

Quote from: malize on October 02, 2018, 09:51:10 PM
Aurelius will instruct his trusted Servus Corporis, Gneapor, to take steps to collect the Mining Concession the dominus has recently acquired...

O0 I'll update that this afternoon, too. It will come in handy very soon when we reach the Revenue Phase this afternoon/tonight!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 07:59:58 AM
Here's a quick link to the description of the remaining Factions. They're tricky to play! http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=22819.msg629033#msg629033
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 03, 2018, 08:13:44 AM
I think the Expansionists are tricky, I'll leave them for a more experienced player. Can I take the Progressives?

Our motto will be 'FUTURUM SUMUS'.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 08:21:53 AM
Quote from: Erax on October 03, 2018, 08:13:44 AM
I think the Expansionists are tricky, I'll leave them for a more experienced player. Can I take the Progressives?

Our motto will be 'FUTURUM SUMUS'.

Will do!

...so begins the Troll Rain.  >:D
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 03, 2018, 08:36:39 AM
I will play Statesman Spurious Cassius Vicellinus
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 03, 2018, 08:43:16 AM
Oh, I'll be a nice troll. For now.

In fact, I'd like to propose a Public Agreement that'll help us and Rome in this early stage: every turn, every faction transfers two Talents to one faction (starting with the Aristocrats and moving down the player order) and once they get this income they must use it to donate 10 talents to Rome with their LEAST popular senator, which they can pick if there's a tie. The Agreement lasts until everyone in it has had a turn (any late-arriving factions or factions that don't want to participate will be left out) and then we decide if we go for another round.

What do my esteemed colleagues think?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 09:38:02 AM
As umpire I regard this as legal, btw. Note that he isn't actually making a "Proposal" for a vote, which he can't do (he doesn't even have senators yet, much less the HRAO, nor any Tribunes, which haven't even unlocked functionality yet.)

He's actually wanting players to sign up for a public contract, which would be enforceable (if there are any stated downsides to non-fulfillment), and which could be dropped out of if there's an accidental non-fulfillment.

The goal of his proposal (for want of a better term ;) ) is to encourage Players to have their senators donate cash to the Republic's Treasury. Right now cash is so thin that it's very hard for a senator who does so to gain any Influence from doing so, which reduces motivation for Players to donate.

On Erax's plan, everyone would be contractually obligated to donate 2 Talents (from Faction cash of course) per Turn to a designated Faction, until that Faction had accrued 10 Talents in a special side pocket (so to speak) reserved purely for this purpose per contract, and then at the next available Revenue Phase the Faction transfers those 10 Talents to the least Influential senator (or player's choice if there's a tie) for that Faction, specifically to be used as donation from that senator's personal Treasury to the Republic's Treasury, which would then earn that senator 1 Influence point.

Once the current target Faction has received the 10 Talents (at least Delayed if not actual yet), the next Faction clockwise becomes the target. And so on for one full sequence around the table, however many Turns that takes.

Cash donations can now happen from Faction to Faction at any time, although they won't arrive until the Revenue Phase. But presumably this contract would only start to apply at the start of Turn Two. The Revenue Phase would be the safest time to make such donations to the current target Faction, and they would arrive immediately; but due to the HRAO-based sequence, the target Player might end up receiving his cash too late to donate to the Republic on that Turn. The cash would be held by that Player to the side (which I would enforce with a special counter, let's say), until the next Revenue Phase allows him to distribute and play it from his selected senator.

This could be very doable. I could track whether Players have donated yet on a particular Turn or not, by putting -2 on the counter which would eventually be used to track their incoming donations. If it's still negative when it comes a Faction's Turn to be the donation Target, then the next Faction around the table with a zeroed tracker (being caught up on donations) gets to be the Target for receiving.

This would be a good disciplinary cooperative practice for helping the Republic survive in early days; it would help more recent senators farm a little influence along the way; and it wouldn't be hard for me to implement and track.

I think every Player would have to sign the contract, for it to be properly implemented, though. And someone needs to create a proper wording for the contract in its details for how it works.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 03, 2018, 10:58:01 AM
I think it is an interesting proposal and I am glad you suggested it. 

It is, effectively, a taxation system.  I am not familiar enough with the game to be comfortable with such a system personally and my inclination would be to table it until we have played a few rounds. I am partially self-motivated since, as I understand it, the less fiscally responsibile the nation is, the more you need me to lead it.  ;) 

However, this is is a democracy and I would like to hear other's opinions on this.  So, I request that each of you weigh in as to your opinion.  Let's try to get our debate on the subject resolved in 24 hours-I will extend to 48 hours if people say they want/need more time.  But, if we don't have clear interest in it in the short run, I think we can safely table it for this turn and keep it on the potential agenda for next. 

Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 03, 2018, 11:05:20 AM
THE 'TALENTS to SUPPORT ROME' (TSR) AGREEMENT:

1. All Signing Factions, starting on the Mortality Phase of the turn this agreement is signed (or on the Mortality Phase of the next turn, if the turn in which the agreement is signed is already past the Mortality Phase) agree to:

2. Donate two talents per turn to a designated Signing Faction, starting by all Signing Factions donating to the Signing Faction with the lowest Player Number and following by order of Player Number according to the following conditions.

3. Signing Factions set to receive donations on a given turn (Receiving Factions) will also donate to themselves.

4. Donated money will be held in the Receiving Faction's Treasury in a separate fund (the TSR Fund) that may only be spent or transferred as follows.

5. At any time that the TSR Fund is equal to or greater than 10 talents, the Receiving Faction will transfer 10 talents to its Senator with the least amount of Popularity. It may choose between Senators if there is a tie for least popularity. The Receiving Faction will then donate any talents remaining in the TSR Fund to the Signing Faction with the lowest Player Number that is higher than its own, and that other faction becomes the Receiving Faction.

6. When a faction transfers 10 talents to one of its Senators, that Senator must donate those 10 talents to Rome as soon as the turn order allows.

7. The TSR Agreement ends when the Signing Faction with the highest Player Number has transferred 10 talents to one of its Senators. At that time, the Signing Factions may decide whether to continue, modify or terminate the Agreement, and (if it continues) whether to include new factions or drop out of the Agreement.

8. If the Agreement continues, the Signing Faction with the lowest Player Number that does not drop out of the Agreement becomes the Receiving Faction and the faction that currently holds the TSR Fund must transfer that Fund to the new Receiving Faction as soon as possible.

9. If the Agreement is terminated, any remaining talents in the TSR Fund will be returned to the Signing Factions as evenly as possible, with dice rolls resolving any  disparities in distribution.

10.  Factions that drop out of the Agreement forfeit any talents in the TSR Fund and (if they currently hold it) must transfer it to the new Receiving Faction.

Note that this is an agreement, not a law. A faction can choose not to be in it but it can't 'vote' against it.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 03, 2018, 11:49:47 AM
Let me add 6a: In the unlikely event that a Senator dies before he can donate his 10 talents and those talents are lost, that Senator's faction receives a 'sorry for your loss' contribution from the TSR Fund equal to two talents, as soon as the turn order allows.

(I don't know if personal money is lost when a Senator dies. The Living Rules say 'remove all markers' but I'm not sure if money counts as markers or if the fortune 'stays in the family'. If the money is not lost, then we can leave 6a out of the Agreement).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 12:29:39 PM
Quote from: Erax on October 03, 2018, 11:49:47 AM
(I don't know if personal money is lost when a Senator dies. The Living Rules say 'remove all markers' but I'm not sure if money counts as markers or if the fortune 'stays in the family'. If the money is not lost, then we can leave 6a out of the Agreement).

Yes, personal money is normally lost when a senator dies, like any other chits or counters on him. There are two exceptions I can think of offhand:

1.) When the Early Provincial Era starts, all Latin and Italian Statesmen already on the board will retire, and be discarded out of the game as if they had died. However, if their family is politically active by then (and thus collected under the Statesman), the family Senator will inherit all the counters. This is a rule instigated by the fan who designed the "Birth of the Republic" prologue expansion back in the days of the original Avalon Hill game, and it hasn't ever been incorporated into the Living Rules.

(There's a bit of confusion in his rules about this, however, since it seems like Cincinnatus will allow Flaminius to inherit, even though that isn't his family.)

2.) In the Faction rules I ginned up for the Conservatives, one of their special abilities is that their Statesmen always "retire" if their family Senator is already active in the game (and thus collected under them), allowing those Senators to inherit.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 12:48:19 PM
On the proposed rule 6 (and 6a revision) of the public contract: potential problems here can be avoided if a Player simply cannot transfer cash out of his Faction's TSR counter until the Revenue Phase, at which time during their rounds the Players are allowed to redistribute cash between their senators and their Faction Treasury as they see fit. (For practical equivalency, I simply pre-collect all cash in the Faction along with generated income, into the Player's Faction Treasury during the first segment of that Phase, from which they can distribute back out as they wish.)

At the time when they can distribute Faction cash back out, their TSR counter's cash would be released for distribution, too, according to their instructions to me, whereupon I'd make sure those 10 Talents got spend out of the senator's Treasury as a donation to the Republic with the consequential Influence pip. (Plus any other donations they instructed me to transfer of course.) It's impossible for a senator to die during the Revenue Phase; and if the donations don't transfer to the senator until then, it wouldn't matter if every senator died -- the cash would still be safe in a Treasury pocket (on a special counter dedicated for this purpose) on the Faction's sideboard.

(If a player is aggressive enough to try assassinating someone with their final senator, and he gets caught and dies in the attempt, all his cash is going to be forfeit to the bank one way or another, even if the other Players vote for clemency to allow the misbehaving Player to remain in the game -- since the threat of losing the game individually discourages people from trying to trim other Players down to one senator, too, by spamming assassination attempts with their otherwise semi-immortal Faction Leader. But in that ultra-rare case, I'd simply transfer that Player's TSR cash to the next available receiver and spread it out downstream that way.)

It shouldn't be necessary for the Player to move excess out of his TSR counter to the next Faction in line at this time (or ever): when a Player tells me they're making their TSR donation for this Turn, then I would move it out of their Faction cash into the current Receiver, and whenever that reaches 10 then I'd start transferring any excess cash to the next valid Receiver around the table.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 03, 2018, 01:23:37 PM
So we can drop 6a and interpret rule 6 to mean that a faction will transfer to its Senator in the Revenue Phase and then (in the same Revenue Phase) donate to Rome. Therefore the TSR money can never be lost before it's donated.

By your interpretation of rule 5, there won't be any transfer from faction to faction, if the fund is at 8 talents (for example) and there's 4 factions in the Agreement, contributing 8 talents, you'll give 2 of those talents to the current faction to make 10 (which they'll transfer to their Senator + donate as soon as they can) and then you'll give the remaining 6 talents to the next faction in order. Did I get it right?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 01:39:28 PM
Quote from: Erax on October 03, 2018, 01:23:37 PM
So we can drop 6a and interpret rule 6 to mean that a faction will transfer to its Senator in the Revenue Phase and then (in the same Revenue Phase) donate to Rome. Therefore the TSR money can never be lost before it's donated.

Right.

Quote from: Erax on October 03, 2018, 01:23:37 PMBy your interpretation of rule 5, there won't be any transfer from faction to faction, if the fund is at 8 talents (for example) and there's 4 factions in the Agreement, contributing 8 talents, you'll give 2 of those talents to the current faction to make 10 (which they'll transfer to their Senator + donate as soon as they can) and then you'll give the remaining 6 talents to the next faction in order. Did I get it right?

Correct.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 03, 2018, 04:53:36 PM
OK, rewriting 5 and 6 then:

5. If donations to the TSR Fund during the Revenue Phase bring it to 10 talents, the Receiving Faction will transfer those 10 talents to its Senator with the least amount of Popularity in the same Revenue Phase. It may choose between Senators if there is a tie for least popularity. Any remaining Talents to be received in that Revenue Phase go to the Signing Faction with the next lowest Player Number, and that other faction becomes the Receiving Faction.

6. When a faction transfers 10 talents to one of its Senators during a Revenue Phase, that Senator must donate those 10 talents to Rome in the same Revenue Phase.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 05:09:39 PM
Quote from: Erax on October 03, 2018, 04:53:36 PM
5. If donations to the TSR Fund during the Revenue Phase bring it to 10 talents,

...I was going to tweak that phrasing, since donations of cash from Faction to Faction can occur at any time (now that we've reached the Revolution Phase of Turn One); but they don't fully arrive until the Revenue Phase, so the wording still works.

Quote from: Erax on October 03, 2018, 04:53:36 PMWhen a faction transfers 10 talents to one of its Senators during a Revenue Phase, that Senator must donate those 10 talents to Rome in the same Revenue Phase.

Strictly speaking, that would be if the Talents come from the Faction's TSR purse. Someone might distribute 10 Talents to a senator for some other reasons, like spending 5 on bribing a senator to join the Faction and also spending 5 to ensure a knight joins a senator.


Meanwhile, I'm finally home from work, and I can work on catching up the map and mats.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 03, 2018, 05:50:42 PM
Quote from: Ethel the Frog on October 03, 2018, 10:58:01 AM
I think it is an interesting proposal and I am glad you suggested it. 

It is, effectively, a taxation system.  I am not familiar enough with the game to be comfortable with such a system personally and my inclination would be to table it until we have played a few rounds.

....But, if we don't have clear interest in it in the short run, I think we can safely table it for this turn and keep it on the potential agenda for next.

Put the conservatives in the "table it until we have some more turns behind us" category. I am such a newbie, it is hard for me to see the benefit yet.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 05:58:16 PM
The only benefit is that it would encourage senators to donate to the Republic's Treasury at a time when the Republic can be punched out financially (or hanging by a Plutocrat thread ;) ), by arranging the donations in such a way that your donating senators will pick up a little Influence for doing so.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 06:27:46 PM
I have now slotted Erax into the game as the Progressive Faction:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/4368/Moj8sd.jpg)

I'll zip into his sideboard in a minute. At this point, everyone except Erax has played all the Statesmen and/or Concessions they can or will play. So I'll do some catchup snapshots of the Faction mats.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/7571/gwqdwb.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/59/M2kVTp.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/5016/0hu3zm.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/6651/GEvKrE.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/4749/6Q83VE.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/2879/oS1Mtb.png)


I've elected not to give any starting Faction cash to Malize or Erax, since no one has a lot of Faction cash yet anyway, and everyone's about to get income from the Revenue Phase anyway.

Depending on when-if-ever we pick up a 7th and 8th player, I may revisit this, since joining late might be a little too handicapped without some startup cash. This is only Turn 2 (upcoming) though.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 06:47:45 PM
Note: since Cincinnatus cannot Rebel (yet) against the Senate, the 4th Legion actually goes back to the Active Pool automatically. It shouldn't be in his snapshot, and I've adjusted on the mat accordingly while working on the first Phases of Turn Two.

Note: I've sent a p-mail to Erax concerning his two Faction cards, and he should play at least one of them. For asynchronous purposes, I'll hold open his ability to play valid cards from the Revolution Phase, until after he completes his round in the Revenue Phase. If he plays a Concession that would trigger during Revenue, I'll retroactively apply it.

Note: since there have been two preferences among 6 players to table Erax's public contract, I'm going to proceed along without it. It probably needs 5 Players to work correctly anyway, but if any number of Players want to join the contract, I'll make provisions to start implementing it.

Note: as with last Turn, there aren't any choices yet which would affect other Players during this Phase (barring the TSR contract, which could still be implemented this Revenue Phase, and which can still be played asynch really). So once again, I'll do the income report for each Player/Faction, and report your choice options, but any Player can report their choices to me at any time instead of waiting for Players to work around the Table.

Next up, I'll do the Faction incomes and report them, with each Faction's valid choice options.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 03, 2018, 06:59:04 PM
Before the Revolution Phase ends, I'll play a Tax Concession card on Plautius.

If anyone who hasn't spoken up yet decides to join the contract this turn, we'll agree to put it in effect starting next turn.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 07:35:06 PM
TURN TWO -- MORTALITY PHASE

Kicking off Turn 2! No Immanent Wars to Activate.  Family #21 suffers a death, but they aren't politically active yet.

REVENUE PHASE segment one, Faction incomes.

I have decided that perhaps the best balance for incoming Players will be to grant 1 Talent x Turn # of the upcoming (or current) Revenue Phase, to each of the two starting senators, as the Faction spawns in. Each senator of the Populist and Progressive Factions, then, gets 2 Talents for their personal treasuries. This will give new Factions something of a fighting chance, since their senators would hardly be doing nothing in the Turns before spawning in; but it won't be as much income as even two actually playing senators would earn across the same Turns doing nothing (which would be 3 + 1 per Turn due to the Faction Leader getting benefits of being a Faction Leader. No Faction yet, no Faction Leader benefits!)

Keep in mind, when planning distributions back to your senators, that 5 Talents will guarantee persuading a knight to join one of your senators as a minion this Turn!

Aristocrats: 3 starting cash, +2 from personal treasuries, +3 income from Faction Leader, +2 income from all other senators, +0 from knights, +3 from Valerius' Harbor Fees = 13 Talents. (No corruption marker yet since prosecutions still impossible.) Distribute cash to senators; and then declare any contributions from them to Rome. You have enough cash for 1 senator to earn 1 Influence by donating 10 Talents.

Militarists: 0 starting cash, +2 from personal treasuries, +3 +1 income from senators, +1 from knights = 7 Talents. Distribute cash to senators; and declare any contributions from them to Rome.

Plutocrats: 4 starting cash, +0 from personal treasuries, +5 +1 income from senators (Plutocrat Leaders earn +5 not +3), +2 cash from knights, +2 more cash from knights (Plutocrat ability) = 14 Talents. Distribute to your senators; and declare any contributions from them to Rome. You have enough for 1 senator to earn 1 Inf.

Conservatives: 2 starting cash, +1 from personal treasuries, +3 +3 income from senators, +0 from knights, +0 from concessions = 9 Talents. Distribute to your senators; and then declare any contributions from them to Rome.

Populists: 0 starting cash, +4 from personal treasuries (1 Talent per starting senator x Turn 2), +3 +1 income from senators, +0 from knights, +3 from Aurelius' Mining Concession (no corruption yet) = 11 Talents. Distribute to your senators; and then declare any contributions from them to Rome. You have enough for 1 senator to earn 1 Inf.

Progressives: 0 starting cash, +4 from personal treasuries (1 Talent per starting senator x Turn 2), +3 +1 income from senators (it doesn't matter which senator is Faction Leader yet), +0 from knights, +2 from Plautius' Tax Concession (no corruption yet) = 10 Talents. Distribute to your senators; and then declare any contributions from them to Rome. You have enough for 1 senator to earn 1 Inf.



Exar, technically you have to choose which senator you want to be your Faction Leader when your Faction spawns in, but since specifically who is leader doesn't matter at the moment, and since you'll soon have a choice to assign or confirm the Leadership anyway, I've moved along without needing your choice on that yet. You can safely wait until your round of the Forum Phase to choose.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 07:41:48 PM
Quote from: Erax on October 03, 2018, 06:59:04 PM
Before the Revolution Phase ends, I'll play a Tax Concession card on Plautius.

Noted and adjusted.

If y'all make the contract during this segment of the Revenue Phase, I'll count it for this Turn, and people can make donations immediately to the first valid participant(s) during this segment. I'll set up TSR trackers for each participating Player.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 03, 2018, 07:58:32 PM
Flaminius gets Faction Leader.

If no one enters the contract, I'll distribute 5 talents to each Senator and leave 0 in the faction treasury.

If we get the contract going this turn, I'll give Flaminius 5 talents, donate 2 to the contract and keep 3 in the faction treasury.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 03, 2018, 08:35:09 PM
Apparently, we all need to announce whether we are playing (or trading or discarding) any cards.  I am not playing (or trading or discarding) any cards.   

The frog stands pat.   
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 03, 2018, 08:41:21 PM
"Plutocrats: 4 starting cash, +0 from personal treasuries, +5 +1 income from senators (Plutocrat Leaders earn +5 not +3), +2 cash from knights, +2 more cash from knights (Plutocrat ability) = 14 Talents. Distribute to your senators; and declare any contributions from them to Rome. You have enough for 1 senator to earn 1 Inf."

That being the case, I will spend to get one senator to earn 1 inf.  I belive that is done by giving 10 talents to Appius and then he donates to to rome? 

Assuming that's corect, the remaining four will stay as faction cash.  It's getting to where I should actually read the rules to this game...
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 08:49:40 PM
Eth, yep that's a valid move, I'll log it.  O0

Erax's optional fork is noted; I'll resolve it later once everyone has weighed in.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 08:59:48 PM
Quote from: Erax on October 03, 2018, 07:58:32 PM
Flaminius gets Faction Leader.

Oh, incidentally, I figured out what the original "Birth of the Republic" guy meant when he said that Flaminius inherits from Cincinnatus. He didn't mean the Flaminia family Senator; he meant a different Statesman from Cinc's family with the cognomen Flaminius.

So the way that would work is this: if Cinc's actual family is already politically active by the time the Early Era starts, then the family Senator inherits just like for everyone's pre-Early Statesmen. (Also, any other pre-Early Statesmen not yet played get discarded.) But it's possible that Statesman Flam, who is an Early Era Statesmen, could get played to kick off the Era. (I'll explain later how and why that happens, don't worry for now.) In that case, all of Cinc's counters go to him, even if Cinc's family has already been played active; Flam gets played onto the family, replacing Cinc. Or if the family isn't active yet, Flam just replaces Cinc and then collects the family whenever they show up (if Flam lives long enough).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 03, 2018, 09:18:59 PM
Populist faction will distribute 4 to each senator (giving both of them 5) and each will buy a knight

The remaining talent will go in the secret faction purse
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 04, 2018, 04:21:15 AM
Quote from: Ethel the Frog on October 03, 2018, 08:35:09 PM
Apparently, we all need to announce whether we are playing (or trading or discarding) any cards.  I am not playing (or trading or discarding) any cards.

Same goes for the Progressives.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on October 04, 2018, 06:49:16 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 07:35:06 PM

Militarists: 0 starting cash, +2 from personal treasuries, +3 +1 income from senators, +1 from knights = 7 Talents. Distribute cash to senators; and declare any contributions from them to Rome.

Manlius will get 5 talents and spend it on a knight.  Julius will take two talents
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 04, 2018, 07:17:56 AM
Quote from: Erax on October 04, 2018, 04:21:15 AM
Quote from: Ethel the Frog on October 03, 2018, 08:35:09 PM
Apparently, we all need to announce whether we are playing (or trading or discarding) any cards.  I am not playing (or trading or discarding) any cards.

Same goes for the Progressives.

:o ...uh, you already told me to play one of your cards, and where: Tax Concession 2.

Quote from: Erax on October 03, 2018, 06:59:04 PM
Before the Revolution Phase ends, I'll play a Tax Concession card on Plautius.

And I triggered it as part of your Revenue.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 04, 2018, 12:11:28 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on October 04, 2018, 07:17:56 AM
:o ...uh, you already told me to play one of your cards, and where: Tax Concession 2.

And I triggered it as part of your Revenue.

I thought you'd done that retroactively as part of last turn, sorry! In any event I won't play any more cards this turn.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 04, 2018, 03:54:22 PM
The confusion is understandable. The Frog was backposting from the Revolution Phase and catching up, so that's why he was clarifying he wasn't playing anything. (Which I happened to know already, which is why I had gone onward into Turn Two.)

No one can play any Faction cards right now, although I did retroactively play your Concession which I knew you'd want to do and was holding open the opportunity as asynchronous lag when I moved the clock forward (since that wasn't going to hurt anything).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 04, 2018, 04:26:03 PM
5 to Cornelius, 2 each to Cincinnatus and Valerius.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 04, 2018, 04:51:33 PM
I'm home from work, and working on updating.

At this point I think I'm only missing AzTank's distribution choice: your new tally is 9 Talents in your Faction Treasury, which you can spread back among your Treasury and your senators as you wish.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 05, 2018, 02:04:47 PM
2 to each of my guys.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 05, 2018, 02:14:32 PM
Got it; I'll port those in when I get home this afternoon.

I implemented everyone else's distributions last night, including a slight revision requested by the Frog (now 12 for Appius and 2 for Fulvius, so that each will have 2 after Appius donates to the Republic, which I also implemented); and since no one has yet agreed to Erax's contract proposal, I split the Progressive distribution along his first option of 5/5.

Next up, I'll be running the 3rd segment of the Revenue Phase automatically where I'll be resolving income and expenses for the Republic. Theoretically everyone could lose the game here, but (1) I think on the balance the Republic will have a nice increase this turn (partly thanks to responsible generosity from the Plutocrats, go team!  :clap: ), and (2) the Plutocrats still hold the HRAO (with Appius present as Roman Consul), so even if expenses did trigger below 0 somehow, the Senate would survive.

Once I've reported the results on that, I'll discard all currently active Events fro the Forum, and we'll start the Forum Phase. (But I'll keep the Agrarian Event marked off to the side with a Land Bill 1 marker, for a few turns, as a reminder for reasons I'll explain again in a minute.)

To recap for anyone still unfamiliar with the game, each player will take a round around the table, starting with the Frog's Plutocrats (as the HRAO player), rolling dice to see whether you generate a Random Event, or whether you pull the next Scenario card from the deck; and, if so, whether it's a red-text "Faction" card, which you'll get to keep secret face-down (but I'll p-mail you to tell you about it, and when you'll be able to play it), or whether it's a black-text "Forum" card, which gets played publicly face-up to the Forum.

I can tell you that there are no more families left in the Latin Era to activate this way -- if anyone else joins the game, I'll be pulling the first such families available from the Italian Era now. So aside from Acilius hanging out in the Forum, waiting to see if anyone has enough influence and/or cash to persuade him to join, the current players won't have any more opportunities to pick up Senator families for a while. Whether there are still any pre-Early Statesmen to turn up and play, remains to be seen.

Y'all have preemptively dealt with two more of the coming historical Events, too: the Plebian Secessions. Those would normally generate or stack Drought effects, but thanks to your first Land Bill coming so early, those droughts will be avoided. (Historically of course it's the other way around, the droughts induced a "plebian" faction to camp out on one of Rome's first two hills, the Aventine if I recall correctly, as a protest. This eventually inspired all non-patrician citizens to be called plebians.) So whenever those get drawn in our track through Republican history -- and they will before we're out of the Latin Era -- then I'll simply announce them, and discard them with a reminder for why you don't have to worry about them anymore. And then once both of them are toast, then I'll discard my Agrarian Unrest reminder, too.

I have pondered whether to just remove the two Secession Events (really Drought Events) from the Scenario deck since they're going to be voided now anyway, thus speeding up the history of the game a little more, but... well, y'all might be glad if something is only a voided Drought! The Republic has parried attempts by some rival towns in Latium from taking back Rome (and its nearby allied cities like the Ostia port) for the kingship of Tarquinius, but there are other neighbors agitating nearby in the hills and vales of central Italy, and a big historical disaster in the portents (which those familiar with early Republican history can probably guess at)!

The birthing pangs of the Republic have only just begun.

{goes next to the internet to find a WH40K "prepare thyselves" meme}{the internet somehow fails me!}{faith in internet decreases  #:-) }
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 05, 2018, 03:01:11 PM
Will this do?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 05, 2018, 03:33:32 PM
...acceptable!  :bd:
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 05, 2018, 05:26:30 PM
Third segment, Republic income report:

Treasury starts with 36 Talents,
+30 base income = 66,
-0 no Active War
-20 Land Bill Type 1 (now paid off, goes away) = 46,
(1 Legion x 2 Talents=) -2 unit upkeep = 44,
+25 Talents donated from Allied Enthusiasm Event =

69 Talents new total.  :bd: <:-)

You may thank the Frog's Plutocrats for 10 of that!

All Events in the Forum deactivate. (I'm keeping Agrarian Unrest off to the side to remind me to void the Pleb Succs Events when they arrive. ;) )

Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 05, 2018, 05:42:39 PM
TURN TWO -- FORUM PHASE
--------------------------------

The Frog's Plutocrats are up to bat first. He rolls a 9, so doesn't crap out a random Event. He burns the 494 BCE Plebian Secession out of the deck! -- no drought, thanks to the Senate's foresighted Land Bill policies.  :clap:

The Frog should now choose any or all of the following options, in any order.

1.) Declare a new Faction Leader. Currently it's Appius Claudius. Fulvius would be his only other option currently.

2.) Choose a senator to try to persuade a knight to join that senator as his minion. Claudius has 2 knights, Fulvius 0. Each has 2 Talents, so either one has a 3:6 chance or 50/50 maximum chance, if all Talents are spent on the persuasion.

3.) Try to persuade Acilius, the family Senator hanging out in the Forum unattached, to join the Plutocrats. Appius Claudius would be the best bet for this attempt. The Frog will need to roll Ora 5 + Inf 9 - Loy 7 = 7 or less on a 2d6, which is a dang good 50/50 shot totally for free. You can bump that up to rolling 9 or less by adding Appius' 2 Talents.

If you do decide to try, the Aristocrats (with 4 Talents), the Conservatives (with 1), and/or the Populists (ditto), could try a counter-bribe against you. If they do, you'll have one chance to add any more Talents from Appius. (Not from your Faction Treasury, but you have 0 remaining anyway.)

Of course, Acilius will keep any such donated money in any case, making him that much harder to Persuade in the future -- but then again, if he joins you then you get control of all his Personal Treasury, too!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 05, 2018, 05:49:06 PM
1) I will keep the same faction leader.
2) Fulvius will spend 2 talents to try and get a Knight.
3) Appius will spend 2 talents to make that a 9, unless others decide to spend me down.  I assume that, if people decide to pay to lower my chances, then that is money they can't spend to raise their own chances later in the turn if I fail. 
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 05, 2018, 05:53:05 PM
Quote from: Ethel the Frog on October 05, 2018, 05:49:06 PM
1) I will keep the same faction leader.
2) Fulvius will spend 2 talents to try and get a Knight.
3) Appius will spend 2 talents to make that a 9, unless others decide to spend me down.  I assume that, if people decide to pay to lower my chances, then that is money they can't spend to raise their own chances later in the turn if I fail.

Ehhh.... not exactly. Counter-bribes get paid by other Factions from their Faction Treasuries; Bribes for Persuasion are paid from a senator's Personal Treasury. So their senators would still have whatever cash available to try (that they don't spend elsewhere, on minion attempts for example.)

However, if they do try counterbribing you, they will have either made it that much harder for anyone including themselves to Persuade Acilius afterward, or they will have basically given you their cash if you win.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 05, 2018, 06:02:45 PM
This, by the way, leads to the question of whether there's any way to speed up the counter-bribe process any.

I've taken one step by house ruling that, for asynch play, Factions get only one chance to counter-bribe against a Persuasion attempt. (There are Faction card which prevent counter-bribe attempts outright, typically by sex.  ^-^ i.e. "Marriage" and "Seduction" Intrigue cards.) In board play, if the Persuader adds Talents after the counter-bribes, everyone gets another shot at counter-bribing again, until there are no more bids.

I think it's important for balancing purpose that there be at least one round of counter-bribing, but if there's a unanimous vote by the Players to sacrifice this for the game, I'd accept that.  O:-)

Another way of speeding things up a little, would be for Players to declare in advance, during the preceding Revenue Phase, how much of their remaining Faction Treasury they'd devote to counter-bribes automatically, perhaps under what circumstances. For example, the Frog might declare he's setting aside 2 Talents from the Faction Treasury to counter-bribe attempts on picking up Maximinius specifically, but he'd ignore attempts on Acilius. Those "devoted" Talents wouldn't pay out unless the conditions triggered, and then after the Forum Phase they'd be available again (or if the Player specifically used them 'manually' for something else of course. A few Event emergencies can hit particular officers, and their Faction might need to help bail them out.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 05, 2018, 06:03:54 PM
Meanwhile, let's see if Fulvius gets his first minion!

Normally a 6 on a 1d6, but sacrificing 2 Talents lowers that to 4 or greater, 50/50 chance. 3 or less, failure.

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 2, total 2[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 05, 2018, 06:05:16 PM
 #:-) Sorry, no go for the minion this Turn. It was a reasonable try.

Edited to add: I'll check in occasionally through the night, but I'll give at least 14 hours for players to weigh yea or nay on the counter-bribe. So sometime after 8am tomorrow morning I'll proceed with the roll. (Appius is already spending all his Talents, so he'd have nothing more to offset any counter-bribes, so no need to wait for the Frog after that.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 05, 2018, 06:16:07 PM
The Progressive faction treasury is empty and therefore they do not counter-bribe.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 05, 2018, 06:30:37 PM
The populists have no interest in impeding others attempts to obtain Acilius this turn.

Ooc: before things get too much further on jp, maybe consider a "history thread" that chronicles chronologically the high points of our campaign?

Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 05, 2018, 06:44:10 PM
I was thinking about a video AAR.  ^-^
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on October 05, 2018, 08:20:18 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on October 05, 2018, 02:14:32 PM


{goes next to the internet to find a WH40K "prepare thyselves" meme}{the internet somehow fails me!}{faith in internet decreases  #:-) }
How about this?: (https://i.imgur.com/MUk5OF1.jpg)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 05, 2018, 08:50:21 PM
Agh, too close to real life!!  :timeout: :wow:

....


.......

>:D :bd:
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 06, 2018, 07:15:24 AM
Are we allowed to check how many cards are left in the Forum Deck?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 06, 2018, 11:27:56 AM
Quote from: Erax on October 06, 2018, 07:15:24 AM
Are we allowed to check how many cards are left in the Forum Deck?

Yes, although I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, so I'll be detailed.  ^-^

(You yourself may know most or all of this already, but many players here are learning RepubRome for the first time, so this is for tutorial benefit.)

So, to be specific: there is one overarching "Scenario Deck", running from the start to the end of the game (or however far the Senate gets before the end).

This Scenario Deck features two types of cards, broadly speaking: red-text "Faction" cards, which get given to Players when they're drawn, and black-text "Forum" cards, which get played immediately to the board, openly and publicly. All wars, for example, are black-text cards from the Scenario deck -- thus "Forum" cards which get played to the Forum. (On the board, the "Forum" area is the map of the Mediterranean world with a grid over it, but the map is just there to look nice and give players a visual reference of how the provinces relate to each other and to Italy.)

These "Faction" and "Forum" cards (and there are varieties of each kind) get shuffled together semi-randomly to form the Scenario Deck.

But the Scenario Deck itself gets sorted, during the shuffle process, into rough historical periods called Eras. So those become sub-decks. The three main "eras" of the game are Early, Middle, and Late. The fan-made expansions add Latin, Italian before Early, and Civil War after Late.

I'll zoom in to where I parked the Era decks in TTS:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/5092/g9vrBZ.jpg)

Each Era has a border color around its cards, which I tried to match with text colors in TTS (but black doesn't show up very well for the Civil War Era, which I sometimes call Final Crisis.) Right now we're playing with Yellow/Latin cards, and also some White/Early cards.

You can see on the snapshot that I've turned on the deck-counter in TTS, which is showing that 13 Scenario cards remain in the Latin Era. Some are red Faction cards, some are black Forum cards.

Now, this much is all public knowledge, so I don't try to hide it in overall snapshots, and I can report it on request.

What I can't tell you, is how many remain of red or black cards, or specific cards within those groups, in any Era.

Except, if we were at a table at a conference, you'd see me picking up the Latin deck (in effect) and pulling out a few Faction cards and a few family Senators for new players after we started the game: new players get the first available such cards remaining in the decks.

And so you'd see that I'm already going into the Italian Era to pick up family Senators for Erax! That means, by deduction, there are no more family Senators in the Latin Era deck.

So again by deduction, Acilius up there is the last family Senator which Players who are already in the game will have a chance of picking up for a while!

For how long? -- and this gets to Erax's question, I think. There are 13 Scenario cards left in the Latin Deck. As many as 6 of those will be dealt-or-played out each Turn, because we have 6 players now -- but we started this Phase with 14, and the Plutocrats rolled to pull a Scenario card and burned one of the two Plebian Secession historical Events out of the Deck. Which isn't useful, except that it isn't a War!  O0 And it would have created a Drought effect which would have caused Unrest, except that y'all dealt with that early by a majority vote to pass the first Land Bill.

Five Players remain, so you could get as many as five more cards dealt out, leaving 8 next turn.

This means that, even if two more players join next week (for the maximum 8 slots), the earliest you're going to see the Italian Era deck is Turn Four. But, because there's a random chance of rolling a random Event instead of pulling a Scenario card, that schedule isn't certain. It might be Turn Five instead (though it isn't likely to be later).

If you're curious about the other decks, there are 22 Italian Era scenarios; 33 Early Provincial; 46 Middle Provincial; 49 Late Provincial; and 14 Civil War scenarios. However, in the CW Era, the game-ending card has been shuffled somewhere into the final 6 cards, so it won't necessarily be all 14.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 06, 2018, 11:48:23 AM
Okay, I haven't heard from I.I. or AzTank yet, and we're coming up on noon my time, and I'm done with morning chores (but I need to go eat soon), so I'll move the clock along.

As a reminder, for the Frog and for later players (if the Frog fails): to persuade a senator to join you, you need to roll lower than the target number. Sometimes this means it's simply impossible to pick up a senator regardless of what you do (which was most players last turn).

However! -- for balance sake, the rules are set up so that while it's possible to certainly get a knight, if you spend enough cash, it is NOT possible to spend enough money to certainly pick up a senator! This keeps rich players later in the game from paying to automatically steal senators out from other Players. (Which is also part of the reason for having counter-bribe ability.)

So, on a 2d6 roll, if you roll a natural total of 10, 11, or 12, you will automatically fail to persuade the senator (from trying too hard, so to speak.) Doesn't matter what any other factors are, those numbers will definitely fail. And any cash he was bribed or counter-bribed with, that senator gets to keep for himself in his personal treasury.

So, the first thing I do is transfer 2 Talents from Appius (the Plutocrats' best persuasion chance) to Acilius.

Here he is, hanging around in the "Forum" part of the gameboard, by the way:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/4650/NITvFL.jpg)

You can see potential Legions in the Force Pool off to the upper right in that shot, in case you're wondering what those chips are. (Some of those Legions were recently destroyed fighting the 1st Latin War under Cincinnatus, which is why although he earned 1 Influence for beating that particular War, he lost a point of Influence for the costly victory.)

Next, as a reminder, I calculate the target sum, which equals Appius' Oratory 5 + his Influence 9 - Acilius' Loyalty 7 = +7 (If the number was negative, or zero, or even 1, it would be impossible to roll equal or less to it!)

That isn't bad, on a 2d6 roll, that's 50 percent or better for success.

Appius is adding all of his 2 Talents from his Personal Treasury to the attempt. That bumps the target total up to +9. Which, notice, is necessarily the maximum chance of winning this roll, because rolling a 10, 11, or 12, is an automatic fail!

So, 10, 11, or 12, always a fail, including this case.

But for this roll, 9 or less will win.

I'll roll it publicly here:

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 3, 4, total 7[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 06, 2018, 11:55:08 AM
Thanks for the detailed explanation JP, that's what I wanted to know. So, the Latin Era deck has 13 cards left with up to 5 being drawn this turn. Without giving away too much, the best case scenario is that we get some bad cards to deal with now and some next turn, with some good events to help us along. The worst case scenario is that we get a lot of bad cards (and some bad events) all at once.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 06, 2018, 11:58:41 AM
Appius wins with a 7! -- he didn't even need to spend his cash!

So, Acilius joins the Plutocrats, leaving the "Forum" part of the board.

Senators never gain anything from making a successful persuasion attempt -- Acilius isn't Appius' minion now for example. In fact, Appius has lost the 2 Talents he donated to Acilius! But the Frog may decide to adjust that at the Revenue Phase for the next Turn anyway.

Acilius, as you may be able to see from the prior screenshot, has an Influence of 3 and an Oratory of 2 (along with other stats), so the Plutocrats' normal vote tally goes up to 11: Appius' Ora 5 + Fulvius' Ora 2 + Acilius' Ora 2, + 2 knights.

And the Plutocrats' total Influence goes up to 17.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 06, 2018, 12:00:41 PM
Quote from: Erax on October 06, 2018, 11:55:08 AM
Thanks for the detailed explanation JP, that's what I wanted to know. So, the Latin Era deck has 13 cards left with up to 5 being drawn this turn. Without giving away too much, the best case scenario is that we get some bad cards to deal with now and some next turn, with some good events to help us along. The worst case scenario is that we get a lot of bad cards (and some bad events) all at once.

Exactly. Most historical Events are bad for the Republic, especially this early. In other words, the deck is trying to beat you all! -- and to tempt each of you into trying to win by yourself to save yourself. The random Events are 50/50 good or bad.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 06, 2018, 12:11:29 PM
Next up, AzTank's Conservatives. He rolls a 7, which is a random Event, not a Scenario card draw.

Here's a zoom of the random event table:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/8990/nQLKFu.jpg)

You may notice that the table is overlaying a different table on the board. That's because the random event chances/list for pre-Early eras is different from the E/M/L ears. (Civil War uses the Late Era list.) Also, up until the end of the Italian Era, if you roll a 15 for your random Event, Carthage donates 4 Fleets to your navy (even if you don't even need a fleet yet ;) ), as part of a treaty with them! (This sort of happened historically, too.) They take those fleets back, of course, once the 1st Punic War goes active, but that won't happen until sometime in the Early Era.

Anyway, this post will also test if I can generate a random dice roll after I've already "previewed" the post, since the forum engine prevents tampering with the dice roll by editing the post afterward.

Random Events are a 3d6 total:

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 4, 6, 5, total 15[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 06, 2018, 12:13:25 PM
 :DD :2funny: :DD :2funny:

I swear, I not only didn't manipulate that, I couldn't do so! Though come to think of it, I didn't test previewing the post with the dice roll code either.

This roll won't count, but I'll do it now for my own testing purposes.

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 6, total 6[/blockquote]

When I previewed this post with the code, it showed rolling a 3 on a 1d6.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 06, 2018, 12:21:37 PM
Edited to edit! -- never mind, I didn't read the rule closely enough. Carthage only donates you 4 fleets if you roll a 15 during the Italian Era.

But Allied Enthusiasm is a great random event, arguably much better than 4 Fleets you'd have to pay to upkeep but can't use for a while anyway! It means that next Turn, your allies will donate another 25 Talents to the Republic.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 06, 2018, 12:39:25 PM
So, it's AzTank's round now to manage his senators. Here's a recap of your sidebar.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/2995/4EdHCE.jpg)

Each of your senators has 2 cash. No one has a knight as their minion yet. Any senator has a maximum 50/50 chance to do so if he pays all 2 Talents. (Players are limited to one knight persuasion chance per Turn.)

No family senators remain in the Forum to try to persuade. Any other Players' senator will instantly subtract 7 points along with subtracting his loyalty score AND subtracting point for his personal cash (if any); all of which you'd have to overcome to even have a chance of persuading him to join you instead.

Currently the most vulnerable target then is Fulvius of the Plutocrats, with a Loyalty of 8 and no personal cash. -8 -7 = -15. None of your senators has enough combined Ora, Inf, and cash, to even possibly persuade him.


So, your only choices this Turn, for your Forum Round, are:

1.) Do you want one of your senators to try for a knight, and if so sacrifice how much cash to try?

2.) Do you want to change your Faction Leader?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 06, 2018, 04:41:27 PM
Fabius will spend 2 to try for a knight.

no other action
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 06, 2018, 04:50:20 PM
Y'okay, let's do it!

Needs a 4 or better to win (cash will be sacrificed either way).

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 3, total 3[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 06, 2018, 04:57:09 PM
Close but no minion!

Time for newcomer Malize and the Populist Faction.

Roll to see if it's a random event or a card draw:

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 5, 5, total 10[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 06, 2018, 05:12:13 PM
Not 7, so it's a card draw.

It's actually one of the few good historical Events! -- the Spolia Opima! (While the Birth of Republic rules mention this card, there's no description for it so I had to make something up based on its historical application.)

The Spolia Opima, or best spoils, was awarded to a general early in the Republic's history (I forget offhand who, but I think during the victory over Rome's neighbor Veii, one of the Etruscan major cities). It was only ever awarded twice again, so far as we know, and never near to one another -- the last time was the 1st or 2nd century CE, if I recall correctly. (I don't have my reference book handy.) So it's basically a legendary epic conquest reward, that you wouldn't normally see for several lifetimes. Consequently, there's only one in this game.

The Event hangs around in the Forum until the next Victory against any War with an Enemy Leader. (A Victory with no Enemy doesn't trigger it.) The senator who gains the Victory adds an extra 5 Influence, 5 Popularity, and 5 Talentons, beyond any other stat/chip adjustments!

This is an awesome early Victory reward! -- though of course it also represents the game trying to tempt players to compete with each other at the possible expense of the Republic's survival.  >:D


Neither of the new Populist senators has enough Oratory + Influence + cash to even possibly persuade out any of the three most vulnerable senators from other players (Fulvius of the Plutocrats, and two of the Conservatives' senators): you'd have to beat a negative adjustment of -15, and only Brutus has an Ora 3 + Inf 7 + 5 cash to even equal 15. So you'd have to roll a 0 or less on a 2d6. ;)

(Note that once Conservative senators start winning knights, each of their knights adds 1 more resistance to being persuaded away by other players.)

Your senators each have enough cash (5 Talents) to guarantee persuading one knight, though. So your choices are:

1.) Which senator do you want to go for the knight? (And do you want to spend all 5 Talents trying?)

and

2.) Do you want to change your Faction Leader from Lucius Junius Brutus to Aurelius?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 06, 2018, 08:44:08 PM
No leader change

Let Brutus burn 5 and get himself a knight
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 06, 2018, 09:20:07 PM
Done!

Erax's Progressives next.

Rolls the 2d6 for Scenario or Random Event:

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 3, 1, total 4[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 06, 2018, 09:40:18 PM
Not 7, so it's a Scenario card.

The famous, or infamous, Roman traitor general Gaius Marcius Coriolanus, of the Shakespeare tragedy, is drawn! -- he'll lead the Volscian War, unless he dies a natural death first. He goes to the Curia to wait upon history.

He earned his cognomen, or nickname, for successfully besieging the Volscian city of Corioli. But a grain shortage led to a debate within the Senate about how to assign resources, and Marc argued that the Senate should only distribute grain if the concessions to the first Plebian Secession were reversed. This led, understandably, to a popular revolt, and the Senate generally agreed that he should be convicted of something to calm the populace, but otherwise dealt with mercifully. Rather than accept this dishonor, he quietly left the territory before conviction, and defected to the Volsci, who had been impressed with his siegecraft (obviously) and also with his relative mercy in his victory. He eventually led the Volsci to besiege Rome, intending to become king, but his wife and mother came out to plead for the city, and in his mercy he pulled back the Volscian troops, after which he disappears from history, his fate unknown. (Modern scholars are generally more than a little sceptical of these events, for various reasons, aside from hostility with the Volsci.)

It's nicely coincidental that we drew him right after the Agrarian Unrest led Rome to pass its first Land Bill, voiding the first Plebian Secession drawn on this Turn!

Here's a quick, slightly not-updated recap of the Progressives:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/2879/oS1Mtb.png)

Actually, there's no cash in the Faction purse, and each senator has 5 Talents.

It's impossible for either senator to even try persuading another Player's senator to defect, so the only choices are:

1.) Which senator do you want to try for a knight, and how many Talents do you want him to sacrifice for his chances?

2.) Do you want to change your Faction Leadership?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 07, 2018, 02:35:14 AM
Flaminius burns 5 for a guaranteed knight.

No change in leadership.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 08:49:33 AM
Done! Normal vote tally up 1 to 4. (Your senators suck at Oratory so far.)

I.I.'s Aristocrats next, rolling:

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 6, 3, total 9[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 09:41:20 AM
Not a 7, so it's a Scenario card.

Well, anyone who knows the Republic's early history could guess this was coming...!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7634/hYLut1.jpg)

Somewhat sooner than later, for our game purposes, but the northern barbarians sack Rome (historically in 390 BCE).

First, the Republic's Treasury loses 30 Talents, down to 39 -- so this was about the best possible time to be sacked, really, especially with another random Allied Enthusiasm on the way next Turn to make up most of that loss (+25).

Then Unrest increases by 3 points to 3. Not possible to automatically lose yet, but you could possibly get down to the next worst thing. (though that's super-unlikely). What you can be sure of, is that Unrest won't decrease when Appius Claudius gives his State of the Republic speech -- he just doesn't have the popularity for it. (His Pop is still 0, neutral.)

Last but not least, 3 Mortality Chits are drawn.

In this case, families 9, 12, and 14.

14's family isn't politically active yet, but Acilius the new senator for the Plutocrats, and Aurelius of the Populists, are both taken Captive. They must be ransomed, at either 2*Inf or at least 10 Talents each, by the end of the next Forum Phase on Turn 3, or they die. Meanwhile they count as away from Rome, meaning they can't affect Influence or the vote tally; nor can they take any action in the Senate; nor can their personal cash be used for anything other than ransoming.

Which means, since they each had some cash, that Acilius needs 8 to live; and Aurelius needs 5. (That personal cash will definitely be spent for ransom.)

They can be ransomed at any time, but the ransom must be paid by the Faction from the Faction Treasury. Other Players can donate of course (from their Factions Treasuries, not from Personal Treasuries), but the cash will be put in the delayed boxes until next Revenue Phase.

Until ransomed, those senators are regarded as away from Rome, so their votes and influence are deducted. They can take no action during the Senate Phase (and no action at all until ransomed); cannot be given anything; their cash cannot be used for anything but the ransom; if they had minions, they wouldn't act without direction (so wouldn't vote whether normally or with activist powers); and they cannot earn income in any way (including by Aurelius' Concession). Neither of them have an office, but they wouldn't automatically lose any major or minor office (aside from normal Senate procedure).

This procedure is the same when a general is taken captive in a war, too, except the repay must be made before the War is defeated.

For topicality's sake, I'll move to I.I.'s choices in the next post.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 09:47:11 AM
Cornelius (the Faction Leader) has the best chance of persuading anyone, but even his score altogether would be only +13 vs the current minimum -15 of the most vulnerable player senators, so that choice is impossible this time.

No senator has a knight yet. Cincinnatus and Valerius each have 2 Talents, and Cornelius has 5. I.I. didn't specifically say earlier during distribution that he would do an automatic minion for Cornelius, so I'll have to see a public decision about that.

Also, you can change Faction Leader now (for free, automatic success, as always).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 07, 2018, 09:50:14 AM
Cornelius will drop all his cash on a knight.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 10:19:45 AM
Done! -- the Aristocrat's normal vote tally goes up to 8. At the moment your 15 total Influence is being beaten by the Conservatives at 16, so your knight will only get a normal extra vote, not an activist double vote. But this could change during the Senate Phase.

Last but not least, Tripoli's Militarist Faction! Rolling for deck or event:

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 6, 3, total 9[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 10:32:52 AM
Not 7, so it's a Scenario card. It's the second and last Plebian Secession! (This one historically in 449 BCE.) It doesn't create a Drought event, thanks to your Agrarian Unrest Land Bill, and so is simply discarded. So is the Agrarian Event reminder now.

This leaves 9 cards in the Latin Era deck, which means it'll be Turn Four at least before the Italian Era starts. It also means, y'all are about to be socked with your remaining Latin Wars arriving all together over the next two or maybe three turns. Or even over the next one turn!

Neither Manlius nor Julius is mox enough yet to even possibly persuade anyone else's senator to join the Militarists.

Tripoli left prior instructions that Manly's 5 Talents should be used to automatically persuade a knight, and that's what happens. Normal votes increase to 7, and Manlius' Military skill increases to 6 -- which by normal rules is literally un-possible!  :D Ah, the benefits of being able to train your minions to serve as your Headquarters staff.  O0

Presumably Tripoli keeps Manlius as his Faction Leader, but if not I'll retcon that for you within a reasonable time frame. Just let me know.

With this, the Forum Phase ends, and the clock starts for ransoming those two senators before the end of the Forum Phase next Turn.

I'll do the Population Phase soon, and the start of the Senate Phase, by early this afternoon my time.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 01:05:55 PM
POPULATION PHASE
----------------------

Population phase mechanics: no major corruption markers yet. No threat of Concession destruction yet. No destroyed Concessions or family Senators to respawn yet. Roll 1d6 for each Aging Enemy Leader, discard if >=5.

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 6, total 6[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 01:13:56 PM
Wow! -- Coriolanus drops dead before his War arrives! That'll be handy!

Time for Appius Claudius of the Plutocrats to open the Senate with his State of the Republic speech!

3d6 roll, minus 3, plus 0 for Appius' Popularity.

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 3, 4, 6, total 13[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 01:24:24 PM
13-3=10 adjusted result. This adds +1 to the Unrest level, but nothing else, now up to 4.

Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 01:41:58 PM
SENATE PHASE begins!
-----------------

I'll post snapshot updates of the current state of the gameboard and mats:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7290/WwdXss.jpg)

Not actually much happening this Turn, so the Senate Phase should be easier than last time! I'll report specific relevant stats soon.


(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/916/eCraIh.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/8379/xzHgPG.jpg)

The Frog's Plutocrats:
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/2286/7G7sdD.jpg)

ArizonaTank's Conservatives:
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/1824/d6fq7C.jpg)

Malize's Populists:
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/3086/BY9TO5.jpg)

Erax's Progressives:
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/6607/h5Jx2p.jpg)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 07, 2018, 01:48:24 PM
We may have to run some Games next turn before Unrest rises any more.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 02:13:46 PM
Relevant information:

1 Active Legion; 6 potential Legions in Force Pool.

39 Talents in the Republic's Treasury, with an extra 25 on the way next Turn beyond the normal income factors.

There are no Wars in view, yet. (The doors of the Temple of Mars have been shut for now. Or was it Janus...?)

You can generally expect nearby cities to start agitating for War within the next few Turns. But Coriolanus died in exile before he could lead one of those Wars, so that's helpful!

Two senators are being held hostage by the barbarians who sacked Rome, but there isn't anything the Senate can officially do about that. (Also, it's impossible to strike back at the barbarians. For now, they're beyond Rome's reach. ...for now.  ^-^ That'll change a few generations later, in the Provincial periods.)

There are still only two Senatorial offices, the Roman and Field Consuls.

The only Mandatory Business this Turn will be to elect a new pair of Consuls. Only the current Consuls, Cincinnatus and Appius, are ineligible for nomination. The two captive senators are not in Rome, so can't be nominated either. Prior Consul Fulvius of the Plutocrats is eligible again.

For non-Mandatory business, you could disband your remaining 4th Legion if you really wanted to, but you'd only end up needing to raise it again sooner than its disbanding would save money on.

Another non-Mandatory option open right now is to raise new Legions. However, you'll have to pay upkeep on them next Revenue Phase, and you don't actually need any right now; and if you do need some next Turn (which is highly probable), you'll have time to raise and send them during the next Senate. Of course you might not have the cash next Turn, but if you spent the cash now you'd be even farther in the hole.

Your last non-Mandatory option would be to pass another land bill to try to reduce unrest to a more manageable level. The financial stresses aren't good for that, though: a Type 2 Land Bill reduces Unrest by 2 when it's passed, but you'll be paying upkeep of 5 Talents per Turn in perpetuity. A Type 3 Land Bill reduces Unrest by 3, but you'll be paying upkeep of 10 Talents. Note that you don't get a new Unrest drop each Turn! -- but you do have to keep paying each Turn. Repealing them later will bring back the same Unrest you reduced.

If you're feeling confident in staying financially solvent next Turn, you may consider voting for the Populist Statesman Lucius Junius Brutus as your new Roman Consul (and thus HRAO), since he'll add +4 to his Speech, plus his +1 Popularity to start the Senate next Turn, and so give you a small but real chance at reducing Unrest that way (and a little better chance to avoid the worst results).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 02:18:05 PM
Quote from: Erax on October 07, 2018, 01:48:24 PM
We may have to run some Games next turn before Unrest rises any more.

Only senators can pay for Games, not the Republic itself, but that's certainly an option -- but someone will need to remember to assign enough cash distribution to make that work. Minimum is 7 Talents per senator. As many senators can sponsor games as they want, if they can afford it! Sponsoring senators pick up some Popularity for doing that, too: +1 for 7 Talents.

This choice will show up, for senators with enough cash (which hasn't happened yet), in the Forum Phase. (Technically Appius Claudius had enough cash previously at one point, but he donated it immediately to the Republic's Treasury so didn't have it anymore when the option for sponsoring games came up.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 02:18:50 PM
So: the only Mandatory business first!

The Frog must now propose two nominees for the new Roman and Field Consuls. Other Factions can discuss and make recommendations, both publicly and privately (by p-mail).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 07, 2018, 03:30:46 PM
There's a few events that may limit or even prevent us from raising legions, so I say we raise as many as possible this turn. I don't want to run the risk of multiple wars and no legions to raise. The 6-talent cost is worth it IMO.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 04:54:56 PM
Quote from: Erax on October 07, 2018, 03:30:46 PM
There's a few events that may limit or even prevent us from raising legions, so I say we raise as many as possible this turn. I don't want to run the risk of multiple wars and no legions to raise. The 6-talent cost is worth it IMO.

Strictly speaking then, you can raise 3 legions without going under 0 in expenses; or 5 legions with the understanding that the Allied Enthusiasms will pay for the next two quickly next turn. Or all 6 currently possible Legions, expecting the normal income to pay for the final 10 Talents. (You'd have all 7 Legions active then.) But you'd want to make sure you elect the Plutocrat Fulvius as Roman Consul now, so that you'd have a safety net for the negative expenses until you recover.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 07, 2018, 05:26:13 PM
I'm not sure how deficit spending (with a Plutocrat Consul) works so I meant 3 legions now.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 07, 2018, 07:08:15 PM
Okay.  It is time for a new election.  I am stepping down as Roman Consul.

I need to nominate two new Consuls. I nominate Cornelius for Roman Consul, and Fabius for Field Consul. 

Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 08:03:36 PM
Quote from: Erax on October 07, 2018, 05:26:13 PM
I'm not sure how deficit spending (with a Plutocrat Consul) works so I meant 3 legions now.

As long as a Plutocrat is the highest ranking available officer present in Rome, processing an expense below 0 in the Republic's Treasury won't lose everyone the game. Later once other offices open up, it would be feasible for other senators to march off to War as Consuls and leave behind a Plutocrat as Pontifex Maximus or Censor or something like that. Doesn't matter what as long as the Plutocrat is HRAO when an expense tries to draw from nothing in the Treasury -- but a debt will be kept track of.

Someone from another Faction can be HRAO without tanking the Senate from a Treasury debt, as long as a net expense doesn't go down any farther. I would allow normal expense batch processing to have some negatives in there, as long as the overall result was positive by the end. For example, normal segment 3 activity at the end of the Revenue Phase is going to need to pay for any Active units, which is a debit, but as long as Rome has less debt or an actual surplus by the end of the process I wouldn't call it a game-over. The expense batch would have to make the debt worse, to count as fatal. But with a Plutocrat as HRAO, any expense batch creating debt or making it worse wouldn't be fatal.

Doing that is still risky, though, since you can't always perfectly guarantee a Plutocrat is HRAO for every possible net debt expense! He might keel over dead from the Mortality Phase, for example, and the next HRAO in sequence down the line might be a Populist.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 08:10:16 PM
Quote from: Ethel the Frog on October 07, 2018, 07:08:15 PM
Okay.  It is time for a new election.  I am stepping down as Roman Consul.

I need to nominate two new Consuls. I nominate Cornelius for Roman Consul, and Fabius for Field Consul.

In case anyone wants a shortcut to find them, Cornelius is Faction Leader for I.I.'s Aristocrats (the purple Player One), and Fabius is a senator for AzTank's Conservatives (the brown Player Four). That should help you find them more easily in the snapshots above.  O:-)

This, incidentally, would help clear the decks for more militaristic Consuls next turn, when odds are better that you'll be facing one or more Wars!

I will note that, flipping them around, Fabius' 2 Popularity will help more as Roman Consul than Cornelius' 0 Pop, toward reducing Unrest next Turn during the State of the Republic speech.


Edited to add: I'm assuming the Frog is waiting to give Players time to discuss or suggest alternatives before calling the vote, at which point discussion will be prohibited (and he'll have to provide the order he's calling the Factions for votes.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 07, 2018, 08:21:08 PM
Actually the PM doesn't nominate the offices, he nominates the two Senators (Cornelius and Fabius) and if they're elected their players decide which one gets Rome Consul (or they roll a die if they can't come to an agreement).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 09:26:58 PM
...ah, yep, that's correct. That's actually in my rule compilation flow-sheet, too. I had just forgotten.  O:-)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 08, 2018, 07:57:03 PM
Ok.  I vote for.  And, the proposal is the two for consul, they decide among themselves which is which. 

Vote order is:

Progressives, Neutralists, Aristocrats, Expansionists Populists, Militarists, conservatives.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 08, 2018, 08:43:56 PM
Progressives vote for.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 08, 2018, 08:57:09 PM
Quote from: Ethel the Frog on October 08, 2018, 07:57:03 PM
Ok.  I vote for.  And, the proposal is the two for consul, they decide among themselves which is which. 

Vote order is:

Progressives, Neutralists, Aristocrats, Expansionists Populists, Militarists, conservatives.

The Neutralists and Expansionsts aren't active yet.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 08, 2018, 09:06:08 PM
Okay, let's see.

Plutocrat + Progressive block votes = 9 + 4 = 13 for vs currently 0 against. Potentially 31 votes remain either way.

I.I.'s Aristocrats are next, with potentially 8 for or against. (They don't have the highest total Influence, so their 1 knight can't activist vote x2 this time, only x1.)


While I'm at it, Erax's Progressives could have voted 5 against, since Flaminius' 1 knight would have triggered his activist ability (x2 votes) against a proposal for some other senators' gain, the idea being that the senator believed this proposal would be at the expense of the people or the Republic in general. Had he voted against the proposal and won, that particular senator would have gained 2 Influence! (Plautius wouldn't have gained it, because he doesn't have a knight yet as a minion to trigger activist x2 voting.)

This represents the special ability, but also the temptation, of the Progressive Faction: to act against what they see as corruption in the Senate, and in favor of the people (through Land Bills), and so convince other minor senators (in the invisible pool behind the minions) to join their vote. They're the only faction who can farm Influence this way.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 09, 2018, 04:26:47 PM
Mmm, checking vote tallies.

13 for vs currently 0 against. Potentially 31 votes remain either way.

I know for a fact that AzTank (on a Google hangout where it's easier to get in touch with the Frog) already agrees with the proposal, so the Aristocrats will add +11 for.

New tally 24 for vs currently 0 against. Potentially 20 votes remain either way. And that by itself means there's a majority win, since it would be impossible for everyone else voting against to win with the remaining potential votes.

Since there's no benefit in this case for anyone else to vote against (their senators won't gain anything, and any 'against' vote can't win), I'll skip ahead to implement the victory.  O:-)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 09, 2018, 04:35:34 PM
Fabius of the Conservatives, and Cornelius, Faction Leader of the Aristocrats, have been elected as Consuls. Each gains 3 Influence, bringing their personal totals up to 8 each. Total Influence goes up to 18 for the Aristocrats, edged out by 19 for the Conservatives.

Next, I.I. and AzTank will have to work out between them who gets to be Field and Roman Consul. The main difference at this point, is that the Roman Consul will be HRAO for the next turn, and will be responsible for leading the Senate: making proposals about the Army for this turn, and about new Consuls next Turn.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 09, 2018, 05:18:36 PM
Lets roll a die..
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 09, 2018, 05:32:25 PM
AzTank's senator leads the Republic on an even roll:

[blockquote]Rolled 1d2 : 2, total 2[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 09, 2018, 05:33:20 PM
Fabius is Roman Consul; Cornelius of the Aristocrats will be Field Consul -- for this Turn, kind of an honorary position. ;)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 09, 2018, 05:42:05 PM
No more Mandatory business remains this Turn.

To recap your current proposal options, which being non-Mandatory can be proposed in any order (if at all):

You could disband your remaining 4th Legion if you really wanted to, but you'd only end up needing to raise it again sooner than its disbanding would save money on.

Another non-Mandatory option open right now is to raise new Legions. However, you'll have to pay upkeep on them next Revenue Phase, and you don't actually need any right now; and if you do need some next Turn (which is highly probable), you'll have time to raise and send them during the next Senate. Of course you might not have the cash next Turn, but if you spent the cash now you'd be even farther in the hole.

Your last non-Mandatory option would be to pass another land bill to try to reduce unrest to a more manageable level. The financial stresses aren't good for that, though: a Type 2 Land Bill reduces Unrest by 2 when it's passed, but you'll be paying upkeep of 5 Talents per Turn in perpetuity. A Type 3 Land Bill reduces Unrest by 3, but you'll be paying upkeep of 10 Talents. Note that you don't get a new Unrest drop each Turn! -- but you do have to keep paying each Turn. Repealing them later will bring back the same Unrest you reduced.


Someone upthread had opined that it's better to pick up new Legions now, since later you may not have the cash to do so. In either case, however, you're now operating without a financial safety net, since one of the Plutocrats isn't HRAO.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 09, 2018, 06:17:41 PM
The Republic has 39 talents now, and there won't be any expenses (besides raising legions) between now and next turn's revenue phase, so I suggest we raise 3 legions; we won't go bankrupt before new income rolls in. Yes, we'll need to spend 6 talents on upkeep that we'd save if we didn't raise them now, but there are circumstances (unrest and events, if I remember right) which could make legions harder or even impossible to raise next turn, and right now we have no such restrictions.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 09, 2018, 08:16:30 PM
The projected budget would look something like this:

Current: 39
Three Legions: -30 = 9
Upkeep next Turn: -2 per Legion x 4 Legions = 1
Regular Republic Income: +30 = 31
Allied Enthusiasm Event resolves: +25 = 56 Talents, up from 39.

Those two Allied Enthusiasm Events y'all have rolled randomly, have been absolute windfalls!

High unrest can make legions harder to raise, including manpower shortages, which can also trigger as a random event in itself.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 09, 2018, 08:44:44 PM
Ah, wait, I forgot! -- there is a third Office now! It unlocked with the defeat of Tarquinus! (Not necessarily the defeat of the 1st Latin War, but that happened, too.)

The Republic must have... A PONTIFEX MAXIMUS!!

This is the next (and for this Turn last) Mandatory business. But we could't do it until the Consuls were settled anyway. But it has to be settled before voting to raise more Legions.

AzTank, of course, must make the proposal to nominate a particular senator as PontMax. Any senator present in Rome (not the two in Captivity, for example) can be proposed, including senators who already have another Major or minor office. So one of the Consuls can be PontMax.

The PontMax gets a random income bonus during the Revenue Phase; and a +5 to his Influence (regardless of Era). Once elected, he serves for life, or unless he is stripped of his title by a Senate vote (the only vote that needs more than 2/3 majority) or by a prosecution for corruption. He can also lose office from too many Evil Omens randomly rolling in a Turn. He's also the only Officer who will lose the influence he gained from his office if he loses his title (so -5 if he stops being PontMax).

The PontMax can, at any time during any Senate Phase, appoint one senator to the priesthood, which is a minor office, also for life. The PontMax cannot appoint himself a priest, but he can be a previously appointed priest, and unlike the PontMax office itself a priest is always a priest. There is no limit to the number of senators who can be priests; only a limit to the number able to be appointed per turn ( = 1).

Priests and the PontMax get extra votes on any War proposal, for or against. Priests don't have to vote in a block with each other or with the PontMax. Priests get +1 extra vote. The PontMax senator doubles his personal votes (oratory, knights including any activist triggers, and lesser priesthood, but not bribes).

The PontMax, once elected, also immediately unlocks the ability to veto a Proposal. Vetos can be used on most Proposals, with some restrictions that I'd mention when relevant. A veto can be applied any time before the vetoing Player has announced his votes, and kills the Proposal, which cannot be re-Proposed with the same details again on the same Turn. The PontMax can use his veto power only once per Turn (and not to veto a Proposal to strip him of his title. ;) )

The PontMax is necessarily vulnerable to Evil Omen events. He himself is required to pay the financial penalty if possible; and his Faction is required to pay any leftover balance if possible plus a separate 10 Talent fine. If the Faction cannot pay, the Republic Treasury pays the balance of the original Omen penalty (not the Faction penalty). A PontMax unable to pay the penalty loses his office (or immediately upon a second Omen on the same Turn) and picks up a Major corruption marker for possible prosecution during the Senate phase. A Faction unable to finish paying the Omen cost plus the fine, generates a special Major marker for its Faction Leader for possible prosecution.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 09, 2018, 09:00:32 PM
I will nominate Fabius for PontMax
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 09, 2018, 09:52:17 PM
Quote from: ArizonaTank on October 09, 2018, 09:00:32 PM
I will nominate Fabius for PontMax

While Fabius is a fine example of a Roman, and no disrespect is intend himself or his family -- it does seem that having just removed a monarch and successfully fought his attempt to retake our fair city at the cost of three legions; we would not, as a body, willingly choose to recombine the religious duties of the monarch (potifex max) with the executive duties of the monarch (consul)

Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 09, 2018, 10:14:13 PM
Hm, this vote could get seriously flakey!

AzTank has made the nomination, but he can also still withdraw it before he starts calling the votes. I think. I'll have to check; I seem to recall that once a proposal is made, it must either be vetoed or voted on. But a nomination isn't necessarily a Proposal: a proposal implicitly calls for a vote, even if discussion may continue until the Presiding Magistrate begins formally calling Factions to vote.

Strictly speaking there are no such things as "nominations" in the rules, but I'm umping that anyone can make nominations as a sort of informal recommendation for discussion. (We've had nominations before, from people other than the PM.) Once the PM (currently Fabius himself) PROPOSES a senator, however, there will have to be a vote, even if the PM allows some time for discussion beforehand.

Keep in mind that if the Proposal is made, and it goes to a vote, and every Faction (other than the PM's) votes against the PM, he must either step down as PM or lose 1 Influence.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 10, 2018, 08:34:41 AM
The Progressives' Plautius, with a paltry 3 Ora+Inf, poses the least threat of persuading away other factions' Senators should he gain a +5 bonus - and it forces me to keep 10 talents in reserve to deal with ill omens.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 10, 2018, 11:45:49 AM
Man, I miss the popcorn smiley...  :dreamer:

This is where the game first starts seriously injecting political friction -- with lots more to come! Soooo many subtle angles to try to cipher out.

Meanwhile, while we're waiting for further discussion and/or for AzTank to declare the official proposal and call for a vote:

Would the Players like to do a Google Hangout or a Facebook thread for discussion purposes, so that notifications will show up more quickly? (The official game choices would still need to be posted to this thread.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 10, 2018, 04:26:59 PM
Sure, whichever one you decide is fine by me.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 10, 2018, 07:47:35 PM
Hmmm... Have we voted on PontMax?  Has the vote been called? 

Perhaps we should set a google hangout with all of us on it, so that we can talk more easily? 
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 10, 2018, 08:05:23 PM
AzTank has not called the vote yet (or made a Proposal, strictly speaking -- once he makes a Proposal, he can't back out of it, there has to be a vote).

Meanwhile, I see two votes for a Google hangout for quicker chatting.  O:-)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 10, 2018, 11:14:07 PM
Quote from: ArizonaTank on October 09, 2018, 09:00:32 PM
I will nominate Fabius for PontMax

Well then, let's vote
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 11, 2018, 07:49:39 AM
Okay, you've got to call the voting order. You don't have to delineate the order entirely at first, but you do have to say which Faction is going to vote first, and then call the next Faction once the vote has caught up.

It seems more convenient to delineate the voting order entirely at first, though, for asynch.

You could also declare, since it's your choice, that any Faction can announce their senators' votes in any order they care to.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 11, 2018, 08:27:17 AM
OK

Order is:

Conservatives
Progressives
Populists
Aristocrats
Plutocrats
Militarists

The Conservatives vote for good Fabius for Pontmax

The Conservatives will fondly remember friends who vote with them...:)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 11, 2018, 10:07:04 AM
I'm sorry but this is too much power, too soon, for one single family. The Progressives vote against Fabius; with our special ability that's 5 votes.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 11, 2018, 10:17:33 AM
So it begins...  >:D
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 11, 2018, 11:12:47 AM
The populists also cannot accept the recombination of these offices, something the people have expended their sons and fathers just lately to keep from one mans control.

I fear it is a bad precedent to make for our republic

Populist faction votes nay. 
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 11, 2018, 11:22:08 AM
I.I.'s Aristocrats next!

(I'm at work where I can't double-check the vote tallies yet, although I'm pretty sure the Conservatives have got 11 votes for, and the Progressives as previously noted would have 5 votes against due to their activist knight triggering. Populists may be 5 or 6 votes, can't recall -- one of their senators is being held captive by the barbarians from the north.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 11, 2018, 05:24:03 PM
The Aristocrats vote for.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 11, 2018, 05:33:00 PM
Currently it's a pretty close vote: the Conservatives bring 11 Ora votes in favor, but the Progressives bring 3 Ora + 2 (1 knight x2 activist trigger) and the Populists bring 3 Ora +1 knight +1 Pop.

So we stand at net +1 for, with 24 potential votes pro or con remaining.

And, while I was accounting that, the Aristocrats block voted "for", adding 7 Ora + 1 knight = 8 votes!

This brings the net vote to +9 for, with 16 potential votes pro or con remaining.

It also prevents Fabius from losing 1 Influence in this vote, since not every other Faction voted against his proposal.

The Frog's Plutocrats are next. They have a total of 9 votes at stake, and will be the deciding factor if they agree 'for'. If they vote 'against', the Militarists will cast the deciding votes!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 12, 2018, 11:39:36 AM
I believe I am next, and will vote FOR.  I think that seals it. 
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 12, 2018, 12:21:26 PM
Yep, that brings the net vote to +18, leaving over only 7 votes potentially against which wouldn't be enough to win, nor is there any benefit to the Militarists to vote now.

I resolve things out this afternoon, after work. But Fabius will gain 5 Influence, along with the responsibilities and prerogatives of being PontMax.

From this point, Fabius can appoint one senator to the priesthood per Turn.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 12, 2018, 05:05:07 PM
Okay, I've updated the board: Fabius has the (lifetime) office of Pontifex Maximus, and punched his influence up 5 points to 13. Conservative total Influence is now 24.

AzTank can have Fabius appoint one senator per Turn to the priesthood, pretty much at will during any Senate phase. (And take a priesthood office away, one per turn I think. Update: Erax below correctly states that a priesthood can only be re-assigned, not simply taken away.)

Now that the Mandatory business is settled, Fabius can make a Proposal about raising more Legions. The PontMax (and priesthood) voting bonus does not apply to raising (or disbanding) units, by the way -- only when units and/or senators as commanders are sent to or recalled from a War.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 12, 2018, 06:15:57 PM
It says he can 'assign or reassign one per turn', so I don't think he can remove a priesthood outright, he has to move it to someone else.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 12, 2018, 07:22:52 PM
Ah, yep, good catch!

For those wondering, the post with the Living Rules and my Sabrerules modification flowchart attached, can be found here. Updated to October 5th. http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=22819.msg628536#msg628536
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 12, 2018, 07:27:20 PM
A question also came up concerning whether the PontMax must appoint a priest every Turn during the Senate Phase. That was true back in version 2.16 of the Living Rules, but this requirement was eliminated by the current set.

Note that the "2.16" version of the rules applies as a number to the original Avalon Hill edition. The current Living Rules are version 1.06, and apply to the Valley Games edition which is what we're using as a base. (The prologue and epilogue Eras use 2.16 of the AH rules, but anything different has been superseded by the VG rules.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 13, 2018, 10:58:22 AM
I will elevate the Frog's Fulvius to the Priesthood

Is there anyone among the coalition who feels we need to raise legions?  Since we are not at war, I am inclined not to raise any, but certainly will listen to a counter discussion

Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 13, 2018, 11:20:20 AM
Quote from: ArizonaTank on October 13, 2018, 10:58:22 AM
I will elevate the Frog's Fulvius to the Priesthood

Is there anyone among the coalition who feels we need to raise legions?  Since we are not at war, I am inclined not to raise any, but certainly will listen to a counter discussion

I'll make the adjustment this afternoon after work. (Overtime on Saturday today.)

Quote from: Erax on October 09, 2018, 06:17:41 PM
The Republic has 39 talents now, and there won't be any expenses (besides raising legions) between now and next turn's revenue phase, so I suggest we raise 3 legions; we won't go bankrupt before new income rolls in. Yes, we'll need to spend 6 talents on upkeep that we'd save if we didn't raise them now, but there are circumstances (unrest and events, if I remember right) which could make legions harder or even impossible to raise next turn, and right now we have no such restrictions.

Quote from: JasonPratt on October 09, 2018, 08:16:30 PM
The projected budget would look something like this:

Current: 39
Three Legions: -30 = 9
Upkeep next Turn: -2 per Legion x 4 Legions = 1
Regular Republic Income: +30 = 31
Allied Enthusiasm Event resolves: +25 = 56 Talents, up from 39.

Those two Allied Enthusiasm Events y'all have rolled randomly, have been absolute windfalls!

High unrest can make legions harder to raise, including manpower shortages, which can also trigger as a random event in itself.


I think this is all the discussion about raising more Legions this Turn, between the time we settled the Consul election, and the time when I remembered there's a PontMax office needing filled now.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 13, 2018, 03:32:19 PM
Then let's raise three.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 13, 2018, 03:33:02 PM
Fulvius now updated with a Priest marker. Fulvius' influence +1 to 6, Plutocrat influence total now 15.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 13, 2018, 03:33:50 PM
Quote from: ArizonaTank on October 13, 2018, 03:32:19 PM
Then let's raise three.

Is that a proposal calling for a vote? And if so, are you ready to provide the Faction voting order?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 13, 2018, 10:35:19 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on October 13, 2018, 03:33:50 PM
Quote from: ArizonaTank on October 13, 2018, 03:32:19 PM
Then let's raise three.

Is that a proposal calling for a vote? And if so, are you ready to provide the Faction voting order?

Vote to raise three legions. These are needed as a buffer in case unforseen trouble develops.

Voting order:

Conservatives
Progressives
Populists
Aristocrats
Plutocrats
Militarists

Conservatives vote yes

Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 13, 2018, 10:58:05 PM
While out of order, populist vote will be affirmative
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 14, 2018, 12:15:03 AM
Progressives vote in favor.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 14, 2018, 08:37:27 AM
The Aristocrats vote in favour.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 14, 2018, 09:04:29 AM
That's 28 votes 'pro', with only potentially 15 votes 'con' remaining; and with no advantage to the remaining two factions for voting against. So we can end the vote here with a win for the proposal.

I don't think anyone wants to burn cash on another land bill right now -- unrest isn't an emergency (and if it was, you should have elected a Populist as Roman Consul. ;) ) And it would be worse than pointless to vote to disband any of those Legions.

So that ends the Senate Phase for this Turn! I'll process data and move on to the Revolution Phase soon.

As a preliminary to that, no one can rebel yet, and no one has so many cards that they need to discard, so the only questions will be whether anyone wants to donate or trade cards with other Players (which can actually be done at any time but which will 'arrive' at the next Phase); and whether anyone has valid Statesmen and/or Concessions to play. I'll double-check everyone and post pmails to let you know your options.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 14, 2018, 09:34:05 AM
Okay, the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Legions have been raised again to Active. The 5th, 6th, and 7th remain potentials in the Force Pool.

The Republic's Treasury has dropped 30 Talents down to 9 remaining. Not counting any donations coming up from senators, though, you can expect to end the Revenue Phase with 56 in the bank.

No one, has it happens, has any playable cards for the Revolution Phase. If anyone has any theoretically playable cards for this phase, you can assume I've already sent out all p-mails to those people to let them know. If you don't have a p-mail from me on this topic for this Turn, you don't have even a theoretically playable card.

As always, I'll send p-mails to Players when you have actually or theoretically playable cards during a Phase, so don't worry too much about it.  O:-)

If anyone wants to donate or trade cards immediately, I'll allow a reasonable amount of time as usual for asynch lag purposes. Just let me know before the next Forum Phase starts.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 14, 2018, 09:52:36 AM
Speaking of donations! -- and I'm putting this in its own post for emphasis:

two senators are currently being held hostage for ransom by the barbarian raiders from the north!

Both are, ironically, from recently raised families.

Acilius of the Plutocrats:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/3976/3AjHAO.jpg)

and Aurelius of the Populists:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/9919/8y3nMo.jpg)


Senators receive no income when captured for ransom, according to the rules, but I don't think that's reasonable -- rather, any income they receive must be spent up to the balance of their remaining ransom. Their captors aren't total fools, they wouldn't turn down 3 Talents which Aurelius' family would be receiving for him managing Rome's mining operations, nor the 1 he'd normally receive from just being a wealthy family doing normal business.

Acilius was captured with two Talents, so he only needs 8 more to be released.

Aurelius was captured with five Talents! -- so he only needs 5 more to be released. (Both figures to be reduced more during the next income.)

Rome doesn't have the capability to go rescue them, yet. (Or even at all according to the rules! -- but I'm planning to house-mod that a little when-if-ever senators are captured in Wars. The Republic has no way to take the fight to the barbarian homeland right now, so there's no possible rescue now.)

Donations to help with this, from Faction(s) to Faction, can be sent at any time, but the most reasonable time will be during the upcoming Revenue Phase (which is when any donated cash would 'arrive' anyway). I'll talk more about this soon when we get to that phase. (They may die in captivity anyway.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 14, 2018, 10:19:53 AM
This effectively ends the Turn, with any donation/trade/discard of cards allowed by lag for a while, so on to:

TURN THREE -- MORTALITY PHASE!
----------------------------------------

No Immanent Wars yet, so no Wars go Active.

Death strikes Family #13! -- Flaminius, Faction Leader of the Progressives, dies!

Fortunately, he was the Faction Leader. So his family immediately elevates a scion to patrician to take his place as Faction Leader. But the knight was loyal to the previous Flaminius, and so goes back into the invisible pool of minor senators. Normal vote tally reduces 1 to 3. (Flaminius had no other chips to lose yet.)

Had Family #17 been drawn, for example, Plautius of the Progressives, he would have lost all chips and his family card would go to the bottom of the family Senator stack of the Curia in the Forum, to await random respawning. (Which right now is a much better chance than usual thanks to Appius Claudius being alive, since he acts as mentor to train new scions into being patricians for the good of the Republic.) Once respawned, whenever that might happen, the new Plautian Senator would go active in the Forum where he would await being persuaded to join a Faction. His Tax Farming #2 Concession would go immediately to the Forum meanwhile, to be voted on reassignment to another senator during the next Senate Phase.

But fortunately for Erax, that didn't happen. In effect, he just lost his only knight, that's all. But I wanted to take the opportunity to demonstrate the advantage a Faction Leader has, in death, over any other senator.

Two more death chips are drawn for the senators in Captivity, but their family numbers didn't come up, so they're fine. The barbarians may be barbaric, but they aren't stupid: they'll wait to see if the families can come up with the ransom demands.

This ends the Mortality Phase. I'll start processing the Revenue Phase soon.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 14, 2018, 11:46:09 AM
The Progressives wish to hold a round of games in honor of the recently departed Flaminius the Elder, to which end we request a loan of one talent from any faction. We offer to repay TWO talents next turn.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 14, 2018, 12:33:04 PM
^^ Hear, hear!

Make that a public contract, and it will even be enforceable.  O:-)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 14, 2018, 12:47:17 PM
TURN THREE -- REVENUE PHASE
-------------------------------------

The Phase that everyone loves the most has come around again! -- time to harvest your income!

None of the available choices for Players in Segment Two involve messing much with the game, so after the first two turns I've decided that the Player order doesn't matter (for this purpose): we don't have to start with the HRAO and go around the table clockwise. Any Player can report their choices whenever you're ready.

The choices, as before, currently come down to:

1.) Distribute your collected Faction cash back to senators as you prefer (including to any Captive senators whose ransom hasn't been paid off yet);

and

2.) Donate from any of your senators' Personal Treasuries as many Talents as you prefer to the Republic's Treasury. (Currently at 9 Talents, but it'll soon have a net 56 Talents not counting any donations.) Any senator who donates 10 Talents will gain 1 Influence. (A senator would need to donate 25 Talents to gain 2 Influence, which I doubt will be possible for anyone.)

Remember when doing your distributions, that the Forum Phase will come next, and you may want to Persuade a knight (needs 5 Talents for automatic success) or Persuade a senator to join your Faction (which the persuading senator's cash could help with -- or cash in your Faction Treasury, and Personal Treasuries could help prevent!) As Erax noted, any senator during the upcoming Forum Phase can also Sponsor Games, for which he'll need 7, 11, or 18 Talents (for Popularity gain of 1, 2, or 3; and Unrest reduction similarly.)


I'll batch report everyone's Segment One finances in the next post.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 14, 2018, 01:06:01 PM
Ooh, these costs are different from the ones I have, I guess everything is a bit cheaper in the prequel eras! Ignore my previous post, the Progressives do not need a loan!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 14, 2018, 01:28:20 PM
Quote from: Erax on October 14, 2018, 01:06:01 PM
Ooh, these costs are different from the ones I have, I guess everything is a bit cheaper in the prequel eras! Ignore my previous post, the Progressives do not need a loan!

If you mean for the games, no the costs are the same in each Era. I read the costs straight off the game board.

But since I know at least one place there's a misprint on the official game board (where a 2d6 for rolling results should be 3d6), I double-checked the April 2018 Living Rules. But the rules say refer to the game board. My "Sabrerules" compilation also says 7, 13, or 18 from Personal Cash. The Streamlined Rules from the previous edition of the Living Rules, prints 7, 13, and 18. Maybe the older Avalon Hill rules were more expensive for games?

Here's a board snapshot taken just now:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/2679/Rys7WU.jpg)

I also just double-checked the Birth of the Republic board, and the figures are the same. Perhaps later editions of the game now use what was originally cheaper Birth costs compared to normal Eras?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 14, 2018, 01:33:08 PM
And now, the Faction tallies:

I.I.'s Aristocrats: Starting cash = 4; +2 +2 from personal Treasuries; +3 +2 from senator incomes; +1 from knights; +3 from Valerius' Harbor Fees (no corruption yet) = new Faction cash total 17 Talents.

Tripoli's Militarists: starting cash = 0; +2 from Personal Treasuries; +3 +1 from senator incomes; +1 +1 from knights; +0 from (no) Concessions = new Faction cash total 8 Talents.

The Frog's Plutocrats:
Captive Acilius has 2 Talents, and earns another 1 = new personal Treasury total 3 Talents. Needs 7 more to be returned to Rome.
Faction starting cash = 0; +0 from Personal Treasuries; +5 (Plutocrat Leader bonus) +1 from senator incomes; +(2x2=)4 from knights (Plutocrat knight income bonus); +0 from (no) Concessions = new Faction cash total 10 Talents.

AzTank's Conservatives: starting cash = 1; +2 +2 +2 from Personal Treasuries; +3 +3 from senator incomes; +0 from (no) knights; +0 from (no) concessions; +2 from 1d6 PontMax income = new Faction cash total 15 cash.

Malize's Populists:
Captive Aurelius' Personal Treasury = 5; + 3 from Mining Concession = 8. Needs 2 more Talents to be returned to Rome.
Faction starting cash = 1; +0 from (no other) Personal Treasuries; +3 from senator income; +1 from knight; +0 from (no other) Concessions = new Faction cash total 5 Talents.

Erax's Progressives: starting cash = 0; +5 from Personal Treasury; +3 +1 from senator incomes; +0 from (no) knights; +2 from Tax Farming Concession = new Faction cash total 11 Talents.


Next I'll post current Player mat screenshots, since this may make a difference in how you want to distribute your caches of cash. ;)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 14, 2018, 01:37:05 PM
Clockwise around the board starting from Player One (not the HRAO, who is Player Four, AzTank's Conservative senator):

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/9227/rKDxkP.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7724/bWi1xR.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/1092/Ua6XSk.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/9837/0k3WnT.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/5102/nWgws5.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/8215/UIg9Ng.jpg)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 14, 2018, 01:42:14 PM
5 to Valerius, 10 to buy 1 influence for Cincinnatus.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 14, 2018, 01:57:59 PM
I will pay the ransom, and keep the rest in faction cash. 
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 14, 2018, 02:29:28 PM
Quote from: IncompetentIdiot on October 14, 2018, 01:42:14 PM
5 to Valerius, 10 to buy 1 influence for Cincinnatus.

2 remains in Faction cash. Cinc's influence goes up 1 to 6. Total Influence now 19. Republic's Treasury up 10 to 19.


Quote from: Ethel the Frog on October 14, 2018, 01:57:59 PM
I will pay the ransom, and keep the rest in faction cash. 

Acilius returns to Rome alive! -- no personal Treasury now of course. With his Influence and Oratory restored, the Plutocrats now have 18 Total Influence and 11 Normal Votes. Faction cash now 3.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 14, 2018, 03:11:36 PM
It looks like some rules say the costs are 7/11/18 and others say 7/13/18. Personally I think 7/13/18 is the right one, and since I lost a knight I'd need a 2-talent loan instead of 1. Here's my terms for a public agreement: the first faction to loan the Progressives 2 talents this phase will have their loan repaid next Revenue Phase, plus another talent of interest for a total of 3 talents, out of the Progressives' funds. I'll wait until all other factions have declared their expense allocations and go last.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 14, 2018, 03:17:03 PM
Quote from: Erax on October 14, 2018, 03:11:36 PM
It looks like some rules say the costs are 7/11/18 and others say 7/13/18. Personally I think 7/13/18 is the right one, and since I lost a knight I'd need a 2-talent loan instead of 1. Here's my terms for a public agreement: the first faction to loan the Progressives 2 talents this phase will have their loan repaid next Revenue Phase, plus another talent of interest for a total of 3 talents, out of the Progressives' funds. I'll wait until all other factions have declared their expense allocations and go last.

I'll take that.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 14, 2018, 03:41:39 PM
It's a deal! I take my 11 cash plus II's loan of 2 and Flaminius the Younger holds a Blood Fest in honor of his deceased father. 0 cash left for my Senators or Treasury.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 14, 2018, 04:17:54 PM
Populists will put 2 to satisfy the ransom, otherwise no changes

Edit: to be clear, the ransom is to be paid with 2 from faction cash and the remainder from his personal funds
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 14, 2018, 06:33:00 PM
I agree, it makes better sense for the second level to be 13. That way there's 7 for the first level, +6 for 2nd level and +7 for the third level. It's more balanced than +4 for the 2nd level.

Quote from: Erax on October 14, 2018, 03:41:39 PM
It's a deal! I take my 11 cash plus II's loan of 2 and Flaminius the Younger holds a Blood Fest in honor of his deceased father. 0 cash left for my Senators or Treasury.

Well, not yet. That's during the Forum Phase. But I'll make a note to "devote" it for that purpose when the time comes.  O0

I've now made the proper table adjustments, and left a Public Contract notepad next to the Progressives' Faction Cash tracker.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 14, 2018, 06:39:56 PM
Quote from: malize on October 14, 2018, 04:17:54 PM
Populists will put 2 to satisfy the ransom, otherwise no changes

Edit: to be clear, the ransom is to be paid with 2 from faction cash and the remainder from his personal funds

Done! -- Aurelius returns to his family and to his Faction, poorer but perhaps wiser. Normal Vote Tally goes up to 8, Total Influence goes up to 10.

Perhaps some day, Rome will punch back its enemies far enough to give the homeland some living room, with the City of the Republic never to be sacked again!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 14, 2018, 08:11:47 PM
Tripoli has been out sick all day, but pm'd me that he'll keep all 8 cash in his Faction Treasury.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 15, 2018, 12:51:39 AM
I will give each of my guys 2, also spend 2 for Camillus to get a knight
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 08:06:11 AM
^ That finishes out the Revenue Phase's second segment, then.

I'll work on processing the third segment (the Republic's accounting, which is done automatically), and the first round of the Forum Phase (which starts with AzTank this Turn), when I get home from work this afternoon.

The Forum Phase will run in order, clockwise from the Player with the HRAO:

AzTank's Conservatives (already slated to spend Cam's 2 Talents to try for a knight)
Malize' Populists
Erax's Progressives (already slated to spend Flam's 13 Talents on games to honor his father)
I.I. Aristocrats
Tripoli's Militarists
and then (last this time) the Frog's Plutocrats.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 15, 2018, 08:41:11 AM
Flaminius will roll for a knight with no cash. 1 in 6 is still better than zero! Hopefully you can process my Forum Phase turn automatically when it rolls around.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on October 15, 2018, 10:37:09 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on October 14, 2018, 06:39:56 PM




Perhaps some day, Rome will punch back its enemies far enough to give the homeland some living room, with the City of the Republic never to be sacked again!




Rome is looking for someone to lead their legions to teach the Barbarians a lesson?  Unfortunately, I have my small farm to tend to.  And war is such an unpleasant business.  Much better to handle things peacefully.  Good neighbor policy is always best.  But, if Rome decides I must go, I will, of course, faithfully go >:D
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 11:38:47 AM
Quote from: Tripoli on October 15, 2018, 10:37:09 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on October 14, 2018, 06:39:56 PM
Perhaps some day, Rome will punch back its enemies far enough to give the homeland some living room, with the City of the Republic never to be sacked again!

Rome is looking for someone to lead their legions to teach the Barbarians a lesson?  Unfortunately, I have my small farm to tend to.  And war is such an unpleasant business.  Much better to handle things peacefully.  Good neighbor policy is always best.  But, if Rome decides I must go, I will, of course, faithfully go >:D

Well you better get ready... the auguries look auspicious!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 05:51:09 PM
Third segment, the automatic Republic income phase.

Republic starting cash: 19 Talents (10 of them thanks to I.I.'s donation);
+30 standard income;
+25 Allied Enthusiasm event resolved;
-0 no Active Wars;
-0 no Land Bills;
4 Legions x -2 Talents = -8 unit upkeep;

= New Republic Treasury: 66 Talents!  <:-) :bd:

All resolved events in the Forum discard, and that ends the Revenue Phase for Turn 3.

(Note: the Spolia Opima Event remains untriggered yet.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 05:56:43 PM
TURN THREE -- FORUM PHASE
-------------------------

The rounds start with AzTank's Aristocrats, who roll:

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 1, 5, total 6[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 06:03:58 PM
Not a 7, so a Scenario Card.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/152/GlCD48.jpg)

Coriolanus defected last Turn to try to convince the Volscii to assault Rome, but died before he could succeed. (Historically, he led the first war against them as Consul, and then later in his career went back to them with a proposition to lead them into retaking Rome's kingship due to the Senate politically sacrificing him to mollify the people.)

So, aside from the vicissitudes of war, this should be an easier fight than against Tarquinius and his Latin alliance.

Per his original plan, AzTank has Camillus sacrifice 2 Talents to attempt persuading a knight. Succeeds on a roll of 4 or better:

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 6, total 6[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 06:19:28 PM
Success! -- Normal Vote tally also increases to 12.

There was no indication that Furius Camillus should be replaced as Faction Leader, so that's staying provisionally. I'll allow a synch-lag choice later, however, unless someone decides to try to snipe away one of the Conservative senators -- upon that target declaration, the senator will be invalid to switch to (the immune) Faction Leader.

I am unsure if I understood his revenue instructions precisely, so for the most leeway I've assigned 2 Talents to each of his senators plus another 2 for Camillus to use in minion trolling. ;) So currently he still has 4-2=2 Talents. The Faction Treasury has 5.

But if I misunderstood, I'll retroactively adjust Cam's current 2 Talents back into the Faction pile, so long as the correction doesn't come at a time strategically convenient for such a transaction. ;)

AzTank already has a pretty full stable. His best chance at sniping away someone else's senator would Erax's Plautius, who has no cash and only 6 loyalty, + 7 standard faction commitment = -13 to a persuasion roll. Fabius' 13 Inf + 2 Ora would provide a minimum snake eyes chance to win, plus another 2 Talents potentially risked to bring the winning roll to 4 or less on a 2d6.

That would be a strong probability of failure and a super-dickish move if you won, though, so I don't recommend it. ;)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 06:23:33 PM
Malize's Populists are next around the table, rolling 2d6:

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 6, 6, total 12[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 06:39:55 PM
Boxcars! -- wish that roll had been saved! Not a 7, so it's a Scenario draw.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/9813/fAwWEH.jpg)

Rome's nearest major neighbor, the Etruscan city of Veia, decides now is a great time to threaten Rome on the other side of the Tiber! Fortunately, these Wars aren't really allied, so they don't team up to double each other's power.

(Yes, that's a thing you'll have to worry about sometimes! -- but not currently.)

Each war, notice, will cost 10 Talents per Turn as long as they're active. Winning the Volscian War will unlock two more Tax Farming territory concessions, though (areas #3 and 4), and 5 Talents of spoils. Beating the Veientine War won't give you immediate spoils, but will be much more lucrative since the city and its environs will permanently increase the Republic's income by 10 Talents! -- and you'll gain a permanent manpower increase of another 3 potential Legions!

Whichever senator first gains a Victory against either of them, will also gain the Spolia Opima: a legendary choice of personal spoils, originally granted to Romulus himself! (I think it was granted historically for one of these Wars, maybe against the Veii; it would only be granted once more, in the 200s CE.)

Neither Populist senator has any cash currently (Aurelius needed to pay off his ransom, sadly but successfully). So it's not even possible for either of them to persuade any other senators yet. There's a 1 in 6 chance that one of them could pick up a knight, however.

I'll roll the chance now, and if it's a win, Malize can tell me which one gets the knight:

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 3, total 3[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 06:43:38 PM
A 3, so no success. This ends Malize's round (unless you want to shift your Faction Leader from Junius Brutus to Aurelius, which I'll allow post hoc if you tell me).

Erax's Progressives are next around the board, and for their Event/Scenario roll:

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 4, 6, total 10[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 06:54:56 PM
Not 7, so it's another Scenario. This time it's a red-text Faction card of some sort, which Erax adds to his hand with his other remaining one. I've sent you a p-mail letting you know what it is, and conditions for its play.

Erax's plan was to use the new Flaminius' 13 Talents to hold Bloodfest games in honor of his deceased father, so Flam's treasury goes to 0; but Unrest decreases down from 4 to 2, and Flam's popularity increases from 0 to 2.

Erax was keeping Flam as his Faction Leader. Neither of his senators has any cash now, but it doesn't hurt to try a long-shot knight persuasion which I'll roll now:

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 5, total 5[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 06:57:50 PM
Close! -- but no tobacco in the Old World. With no possibility of persuading someone else's senator, this ends his round.

I.I.'s Aristocrats are up around the table, and roll:

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 1, 6, total 7[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 07:00:33 PM
Craps! -- that's a Random Event, 50/50 shot of being helpful or harmful.

Here's the pre-Early table again for reference:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/8990/nQLKFu.jpg)

But we're rolling forum dice for transparency, so ignore the dice in the photo.  O:-)

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 1, 1, 3, total 5[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 07:08:20 PM
It's a Drought. This will add 1 point of Unrest during the Population Phase coming up soon.

Valerius of the Aristos has 5 Talents, so could pick up a knight for free, but I haven't received specific instructions about that yet.

Even with his Personal Treasury, though, he doesn't have enough clout yet to possibly persuade away someone else's senator.

I.I.'s final option this round is whether he wants to keep Cornelius, the Field Consul this turn (but not for long), as his Faction Leader, or shift it to someone else.

I'll need to know about that and/or the knight roll before I can continue.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 15, 2018, 07:09:10 PM
Yeah, Valerius will dump it all on a knight.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 07:10:30 PM
Done! -- the normal vote tally also goes up, to 9.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 07:12:05 PM
Tripoli's Militarists roll

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 6, 6, total 12[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 07:21:59 PM
Opps, sent the wrong thing to the wrong place  :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 07:26:41 PM
My abject apologies to Tripoli. Hopefully I fixed that before anyone noticed.

The Militarists roll a Scenario card, and draw a 3rd red-text Faction card to Tripoli's hand. I've sent you a p-mail explaining its usage.

The two Militarists senators don't have enough Inf+Ora (+ no cash) yet to even possibly try persuading another senator to join them. And with no cash, their chances of picking up a knight as a minion are 1:6 equally, so I'll go ahead and roll that:

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 2, total 2[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 07:28:27 PM
Eh, no.

If Tripoli wants to shift his Faction Leader over to Julius for some reason, I'll allow it post hoc within a reasonable time frame.

Last then around the table, the Frog's Plutocrats roll!

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 6, 1, total 7[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 07:29:13 PM
That'll be another Random Event, 3d6:

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 6, 4, 5, total 15[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 15, 2018, 07:31:37 PM
This was a very very good turn. Let's crush those two wars!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 07:35:49 PM
 :DD :2funny:

OMG, the Carthaginians SO BADLY want to give y'all a fleet, if only you'd expand a bit farther first!

But dang if they won't give you 25 more Talentons next Turn, to help you get there!

Surely this will not come back to bite them in the ass...  >:D

None of the Plutocrats' senators have any cash this Turn, since it all went to helping their new recruit Acilius get home (well, all but 3, but that's in the Faction pot). So unless the Frog wants to change his Leader away from Appius, his only remaining choice this round will be where he wants to send his knight if he rolls a 6:

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 5, total 5[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 07:40:07 PM
Close again, but no.

So unless the Frog wants to shift his Leader over to someone other than Appius, he's done for the Round, and we're done with the Forum Phase for this Turn. (And I'll allow a retcon choice within a reasonable time frame.)

Next up, I'll process the automatic Population Phase, and prepare for AzTank's Fabius to open the Senate.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 07:57:17 PM
TURN THREE -- POPULATION PHASE
----------------------------------------

Not much to do this Pop Phase: corruption investigation doesn't exist yet; Tax Farming isn't threatened yet; nothing's in the Curia (though Coriolanus died there last Turn! -- which is going to help y'all a little going forward).

Unrest starts at 2, adds +2 for two Unprosecuted Active Wars (War outbreak always adds some unavoidable unrest, naturally), and another +1 for the Drought. New Unrest = 5.

Fortunately, the current highest ranking available officer is Fabius the Roman Consul, who has a Popularity of 2 -- thanks to him sponsoring a Land Bill to help the people out earlier (which also avoided two earlier droughts!)

3d6 rolls total 12, plus 2 Pop - 5 Unrest = 9 result to the State of the Republic Speech opening the Senate.

Fabius' speech, despite his popularity, only makes things worse, adding 2 to the Unrest, new total 7. This is starting to get a little serious! (Maximum unrest is 19, by the way.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 08:07:10 PM
With Fabius' speech, the Senate is now open, AzTank's Fabius of the Conservatives Presiding as Magistrate to start, as Roman Consul (and Pontifex Maximus).

Mandatory Business this Turn only needs to involve electing a new pair of Consuls, which can't be either Fabius or Cornelius of the Aristocrats again. Any other senator is eligible, including other Prior Consuls.

No need to elect a PontMax again, as he serves for life.

Keep in mind you've got two Wars on your borders this time, and only the Consuls can lead a Force to War.

Your non-Mandatory Business this Turn could include Disbanding any number of your Legions, but I'm going to assume that's a duh. ;)

Other non-MandBus could include Fabius assigning another priesthood to a senator (or re-assigning Fulvius' of the Plutocrats). I don't think it's possible for a PontMax to actively seek to resign his own office, so Fabius cannot Propose for his office to be stripped away (to be given to someone else by another Proposal.)

Obviously the most important non-Mandatory Business among the remaining valid options will be the question of Raising more Legions, and/or assigning a Consul to lead a Force of Legions against a War.

But first you've got to elect more Consuls.

Meanwhile, I'll be taking some State of the Republic snapshots for convenience.  O:-)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 15, 2018, 08:13:25 PM
This is a good time to remind everyone that Camillus and Cincinnatus have special bonuses vs. the two wars we're facing.

Also JP check your messages.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 08:15:51 PM
Erax notes that Wars only count as Unprosecuted if they're moved to that slot after having a chance to be Prosecuted; which I double-checked, and he's correct! This not only reduces Unrest by 2, it also reduces Unrest by another 1 (since I'm sure I added that for the 1st Latin War, too!)

This affects the Unrest Rolls retroactively, and I'll have to take some time to recheck those.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 08:28:02 PM
The 1st Turn's roll would have been 15 instead of 14, so no change from "No Change". ;)

The 2nd Turn's roll would have been 13 - 2 = 11, so this time "No Change" instead of +1!

That means the current roll would have been 4 unrest down (-1 for no Unprosecuted Latin War, -2 for no Unprosecuted Wars this Turn yet, -1 for no added Unrest on Turn 2), or only Unrest 1 (due to the drought). 3d6 rolls total 12, plus 2 Pop - 1 unrest = 13 result to the State of the Republic. That's a No Change, and Unrest remains at 1.

My own Sabrerule compilation flowsheet was unclear about this, and I will make adjustments.  O:-)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 08:38:03 PM
Quote from: Erax on October 15, 2018, 08:13:25 PM
This is a good time to remind everyone that Camillus and Cincinnatus have special bonuses vs. the two wars we're facing.

True: they void Disaster and Standoff rolls.

Cincinnatus of the Aristocrats has a Mil score of 5, and would avoid D/S results for the Volscian War.

Marcus Furius Camillus, Faction Leader of the Conservatives, also has a Mil of 5, and would avoid D/S results for the Veientine War.

Manlius, Faction Leader of the Militarists, is only a family Senator so has no special anti-War abilities, but he does have a Mil score of 6 now, thanks to his knight! -- the Militarists always look for minions capable of handling headquarter duties.  O0

The only other Mil 5 senator right now is Julius of the Militarists (thanks to his HQ knight).

There are some Mil 4 senators floating around, too, which will be seen when I get to posting the updated snapshots. And even a Mil 3 senator might be handy for political reasons, for delaying the Volscian War while a more ass-kicking Force goes after Veiia.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 09:12:58 PM
Okay, the current Player mats, from Player One around the table:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/7302/DbUO1A.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7650/J1A1Ak.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/3361/zXUcvG.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/7313/rClQxL.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/1538/TB9L7R.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/8429/3RJopB.jpg)


For ease of reference, here are the Wars again:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/9813/fAwWEH.jpg)

The Republic currently has 4 Legions Active, with another 3 possible in the Force Pool.

There are 66 Talents in the Republic's Treasury. The Senate could raise the final 3 possible Legions for 30 Talents, and have 36 remaining.

Based on currently expected incomes and expenses, you can expect the Republic to add an extra 27 Talents next Turn. (30 normal + 25 Allied Enthusiasm again - 2x4 Legions -20 Wars.) Obviously this will be affected by extra Legion expenses, or fewer Wars!


The ball is now in AzTank's court, to Propose two new Consuls. (Or to suggest some for preliminary discussion.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on October 16, 2018, 11:45:17 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 08:38:03 PM

Cincinnatus of the Aristocrats has a Mil score of 5, and would avoid D/S results for the Volscian War.

Marcus Furius Camillus, Faction Leader of the Conservatives, also has a Mil of 5, and would avoid D/S results for the Veientine War.

Manlius, Faction Leader of the Militarists, is only a family Senator so has no special anti-War abilities, but he does have a Mil score of 6 now, thanks to his knight! -- the Militarists always look for minions capable of handling headquarter duties.  O0

The only other Mil 5 senator right now is Julius of the Militarists (thanks to his HQ knight).

There are some Mil 4 senators floating around, too, which will be seen when I get to posting the updated snapshots. And even a Mil 3 senator might be handy for political reasons, for delaying the Volscian War while a more ass-kicking Force goes after Veiia.

I would like to mention, for the purpose of discussion, that preserving the Republic means a division of power.  Right now, the Aristocrats, Plutocrats, and Conservatives have an overwhelming vote count.  The health of the Republic would benefit by  increasing the political power of the other factions.  Giving the military leadership to any of these leading factions will only increase their power at the war's conclusion.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 16, 2018, 05:16:21 PM
I think it'd be prudent to call up at least 2 legios from the reserves so we could have two armies (4 and 2)

While it'd be great to have a Militarist double consulship, the way things are I don't see how we can't use the personas that mitigate disasters in these wars.  Unless raw military input of the two militarists would offset the chances of disaster, not sure how those inputs all come together

Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 16, 2018, 05:56:01 PM
(Remember, ignore the "2d6", it's actually 3d6, board misprint. Though come to think of it, I might be able to fix it myself...)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/9536/RH5RMB.jpg)

From a purely pragmatic combat theory, not counting political concerns, what you want is to bump that coveted "Victory No losses" slot as low (toward the top of the chart) as feasibly possible.

The Volscian War will nudge it 2 slots higher, totally off the board and creating two more Defeat All Lost slots at the bottom; the Veientine War will bump it a solid 4 slots higher, creating 4 more such absolute defeat slots instead.

Every Legion you can bring to one of those fights, taps the total win slot back one notch toward the bottom; and every point of Mil skill in their Commander will allow a Legion to nudge the absolute win slot two notches lower (toward 3 at the top of the list).

So if you're going after the Veii, for example, your current best possible result, assuming you pick up another 3 Legions to your current logistical maximum, and send them out under the Manly One with his Mil 6 headquarters equals:

-4 War power
+ 7 Legions
+ 6 Manny's HQ
= +9 dice roll modifier.

That means your worst possible result would be a Stalemate with one Legion lost, and your odds of that are 1 in 216. BUT, Manlius won't be able to stop either of the two automatic fails, which aren't outright defeats but which would be pretty costly at 25% or 50% losses rounded up.

If you bring Furius Camilus versus the Veii, he can void either of those two automatic failures -- and the Veientine War has I think a 23% chance of one of them triggering without him! Otherwise his best math looks like:

-4 War power
+7 Legions
+5 Manny's HQ
= +8 dice roll modifier.

That means your worst possible result is a 1 in 216 chance of a Stalemate with 2 Legions lost, and a not much better chance of only 1 Legion lost in a Stalemate. Everything else is a Victory, most likely with no losses. And, with FurryCam, you don't have to worry about the 23% chance of a costly auto-fail.

There are other considerations, of course, including budget, and the expected costs (cash and unrest) of leaving the Volscians to harass your border; or on the other hand of prosecuting their War in a way that's risky or safe but which lowers the chance of a safe victory against the Veian town.

If I may note a political subtlety, though, which has recently become a factor: if you send both Consuls out with a Force against the Wars, Fabius of the Conservatives, Rome's High Priest, will be left behind as the Highest Ranking Available Officer. If your Wars don't win an immediate victory, whoever gets sent out as Consul won't be around to vote or have influence while they're still out in the field (as Proconsuls now).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 16, 2018, 06:46:46 PM
OK, not certain exactly how this is done, but Camillus and Cincinnatus should be raised to Counsels, so they can go to war.

Also, lets raise more legions, did I hear a recommendation for two?

In terms of the priesthood, I raise Papirius

I think that is all I can do.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 16, 2018, 07:36:43 PM
With three more legions we could send 3 vs. the weaker war and 4 vs. the other with a 63% chance of victory for each. In general, the more legions we raise and send to war the fewer we are likely to lose, so in a sense we are saving by raising as many as we can.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 16, 2018, 07:40:35 PM
Papirius can be raised to priesthood immediately.

Quote from: ArizonaTank on October 16, 2018, 06:46:46 PM
OK, not certain exactly how this is done, but Camillus and Cincinnatus should be raised to Counsels, so they can go to war.

Treating this as a formal Proposal.

Henceforth, to speed things along a bit, I will allow a provisional assumption that if the HRAO doesn't include a voting order with his Proposal, then any Faction can vote as soon as they want. In other words, assigning a voting order is a privilege of the HRAO but not a necessity.

AzTank's senators tally 12 votes pro. There are currently 38 votes remaining.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 16, 2018, 07:56:12 PM
I've marked Papirius of the Conservatives as a priest, raising his Influence by 1 to 4, also raising the Conservatives' total Influence to 25.

While going around to check the remaining vote tallies (and whether any activist knights might count double pro or con, which currently won't happen, I happened to notice that the Aristocrats have farmed 3 extra Influence from 3 prior Influence gains! -- when any Aristo senator gains any amount of Influence, the Faction gains 1 extra Inf point to be distributed at I.I.'s choice to any other senator.

So, Cornelius and Cincinnatus each picked up 3 Influence when they each were elected Consul -- each time generated 1 extra Influence point. Cinc also earned 1 Influence for winning the Victory over the 1st Latin War; and even though he instantly lost it for his debacle of losing 3 Legions in the Victory, that still counts as 1 more Inf point to be distributed.

Thus in summary, I.I. has 2 Inf points he can distribute to anyone but Cinc, and 1 more Inf point he can distribute to anyone but Corny. I have left a marker as a reminder under his Total Influence marker, and I've upgraded it already to account for the extra influence meanwhile. It still isn't enough to activate his knights' x2 vote ability, but it's close!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 16, 2018, 08:21:18 PM
The aristocratic faction votes for.

1 influence to each of my senators.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 16, 2018, 08:36:11 PM
Quote from: IncompetentIdiot on October 16, 2018, 08:21:18 PM
The aristocratic faction votes for.

1 influence to each of my senators.

Done, Cornelius now 9, Valerius now 6, Cincinnatus now 7. Total influence now 22. You'd need 26 currently to double your knights' voting power.

Aristocrats add 9 votes, making 21 votes pro, 0 votes con. 29 votes outstanding. Literally any other Faction, assuming its senators all vote together (which is a safe assumption since there's no benefit otherwise in this vote), will tip the scale to a majority for the Proposal.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 16, 2018, 10:03:18 PM
Populists For. 

Our enemies will be taken care of, and then Cincinnatus can return to his fields.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 17, 2018, 07:38:20 AM
That cinches Cinc and Corny as the new Consuls, then!

AzTank and I.I. will either have to work out he details or roll for who gets to be Roman vs Field. Each of them will gain 3 Influence either way -- and the Aristocrats will farm another point of Influence which can't be spent on Cincinnatus!

As umpire, I will personally suggest that Cinc be made Roman Consul, since I.I. seems more able to check regularly on the thread right now.  O:-) So Cinc being the Presiding Magistrate as HRAO will help things move along more smoothly.

As a sidenote, the PM post can be voluntarily resigned without affecting the senator's rank or office in any other way. As with him losing the PM post for other reasons, the post then descends to the next HRAO senator, who then takes over management of the Senate as PM. This can be handy for various reasons, including real life issues cropping up which require a Player to be less able to check in on a thread. But it can also be handy for at least one in-game reason: the senator's Player wants the senator to be able to leave Rome, and the rules say that if the PM leaves Rome then he automatically closes the Senate while doing so. Due to the how the timing in the game works, however, the PM cannot make a Proposition where he would leave Rome if it passes, and then resign during or after this Proposition. He must resign first (assuming he agrees that the Senate should continue without him) -- but then the next HRAO must be willing to Propose for the prior senator to leave Rome as Commander or Governor! So while there's an important in-game usage for this concept, it can require some political finesse.  :coolsmiley:
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 17, 2018, 09:59:37 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on October 17, 2018, 07:38:20 AM
As umpire, I will personally suggest that Cinc be made Roman Consul, since I.I. seems more able to check regularly on the thread right now.  O:-) So Cinc being the Presiding Magistrate as HRAO will help things move along more smoothly.



I am good with that
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 17, 2018, 10:36:41 AM
I can't imagine I.I. will disagree, so provisionally I'll note Cincinnatus as the new Roman Consul and Camillus as Field Consul. (I kept saying Cornelius, sorry -- that came from him being Field Consul from last turn, and also trying to track how many extra points of Influence the Aristocrats had farmed.)

That means Cinc will also be HRAO and thus the new Presiding Magistrate for this Senate.

There isn't any other Mandatory Business for this Senate, so it's now up to I.I. to decide how many more, if any, Legions to Propose Raising; with an eye toward future Proposals this Turn on how to send Cami and/or himself to War.

(If I.I. does insist on a roll off before then, which I doubt, we'll cross that bridge first.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 17, 2018, 03:17:44 PM
Am I correct in saying that if we send both consuls to war, the Field Consul would have the first shot at the Spolia Opima since he must be sent off before the Rome Consul? If so, I would indeed prefer for the assignments to be determined by a roll.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 17, 2018, 03:32:54 PM
Quote from: IncompetentIdiot on October 17, 2018, 03:17:44 PM
Am I correct in saying that if we send both consuls to war, the Field Consul would have the first shot at the Spolia Opima since he must be sent off before the Rome Consul? If so, I would indeed prefer for the assignments to be determined by a roll.

Ah, good question!

Both Consuls can be sent out on the same Turn -- and if the highest ranking officer doesn't resign his Presiding Magistrate post before departing Rome, then he closes the Senate with his departure, so the the standard example is that when the Roman Consul leaves for War the Senate closes.

As a general rule, the fights are resolved in the order of deployment first, and then by some other factors if they've been stacking up. (Later in the game Governors can get into fights with Wars from their Province areas, for example.) So again the standard example is that the Field Consul gets sent first, and then the Roman Consul; who closes the Senate by his departure for War; and then the Combat Phase comes along and I fight the Field Consul's battle first, then the Roman Consul's.

Consequently, under normal conditions, yes the Field Consul would get first shot at the Opima Spoila by a Victory, even though the Roman Consul will also be fighting a War next on the same Turn.

There are ways for the Roman Consul to game the system, however, within the rules, although this can require some political bargaining. ...I'm kind of loath to provide an example, though!? This is where Players should exercise political ingenuity. You've got enough exposure to the rules as they exist so far, to come up with political strategies aimed at getting your Consul in a better position to win the Spolia.

(Note that this card represents the game tempting Players to possibly cripple the cooperation of the Republic, and thus the survival of the Republic, by competing to get the unique one-time prize which can only be given to the first senator who earns it....  >:D )
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 17, 2018, 03:34:58 PM
We can't get the Spolia Opima this turn, it requires a war with a leader.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 17, 2018, 03:41:04 PM
Ah, right! -- whew, crisis avoided.  :bd:
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 17, 2018, 03:45:37 PM
Ah, right. I'm content to take Rome Consul then. My bonus influence will go to Cornelius.

As Erax suggested, I propose that we raise the last 3 legions and then send Camillus with 4 against the Veientine War and Cincinnatus with 3 to fight the Volscian War (not sure if all of those need to constitute separate proposals).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 17, 2018, 04:06:43 PM
I think JP is allowing us to bundle all those together for ease of play. If it's allowed, I'll vote in favor, it was my suggestion after all.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 17, 2018, 04:42:26 PM
Those are two different kinds of Proposals, so raising the Legions comes first. The other two Proposals are the same kind (deploying a Force to a War) so they can be batched.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 17, 2018, 04:47:05 PM
2nd Proposal then (1st was for Consuls): raise the last three possible Legions. Cost will be 30 Talents now, and another 6 Talents per year ongoing.

I.I.'s Aristocrats naturally vote pro; and so do the Progressives. I'll set up the tallies soon when I get home.

Unless and until I.I. provides a voting schedule, any Faction can vote whenever on this Proposal.

(The deployment of Forces is a separate category and must be separate proposal, and is not yet being voted on. Note that the PontMax and the priests do NOT get extra votes for or against the current proposal: they only get extra votes on propositions of Force deployment or recall.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on October 17, 2018, 05:29:45 PM
I'll vote for
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 17, 2018, 06:01:15 PM
populists:

legion increase - aye
deployment as suggested - aye
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 17, 2018, 06:24:06 PM
I'll keep in mind the deployment batch voting for later, which will skip things along.

For raising 3 more Legions, the voting stands at +7+2 Aristocrats; +3 Progressives; +5+2 Militarists; +6+1+1 Popularists = 27 pro vs 0 con.

There are only 24 potential votes remaining against (the Conservatives have 1 knight now who can vote double against any proposals), and there's no advantage for them to register voting against, so this Proposal passes.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 17, 2018, 06:28:45 PM
I now make the proposal to deploy Camillus with 4 legions against the Veientine War and then Cincinnatus with 3 legions against the Volscian War.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 17, 2018, 06:35:48 PM
Republic Treasury down 30 to 36.

3rd and 4th Proposals are of the same category, and so are being batched per I.I.

Aristocrats necessarily vote 9, Progressives already indicated they would vote +3 again; Populists already indicate they will vote +8 again.

Vote stands at 20 for, 0 con.

Tripoli might have already indicated a "for" as well, but I can't tell for sure so I have to count the Militarists as not having voted yet. This leaves 31 still potentially against (including AzTank's activist knight).

Any further vote by any Faction, including Tripoli's 7 Militarists, will be a solid majority with no benefit to further voting.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on October 17, 2018, 07:44:08 PM
Yep, my vote was for the proposal for raising the legions.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 17, 2018, 07:49:58 PM
Quote from: Tripoli on October 17, 2018, 07:44:08 PM
Yep, my vote was for the proposal for raising the legions.

....okay, so are you voting yes or no for deploying the legions?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on October 18, 2018, 07:45:30 AM
If the vote for raising the legions passes, and we therefore have the number of legions that the deployment proposal requires, then yes, I will also vote for the deployment of the legions as per the proposal.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 18, 2018, 07:47:56 AM
Ah! -- got it. Yes, the vote for raising the Legions already passed with a majority (things moved really quickly yesterday!) We're now doing the force deployment vote (batching the two deployment proposals).

It's all good now. You cast the deciding vote for deployment.  O:-) (And also AzTank dropped a note in hangout chat that the Conservatives would also vote for the deployment.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 18, 2018, 07:57:01 AM
So, with that Proposal settled, the Presiding Magistrate -- currently the Roman Consul -- leaves the Senate, and automatically closes the Senate in going.

I'll be resolving the Combat Phase later today. (Around 9 hours from now.)

Meanwhile! -- looking forward, no one has so many Faction cards in your hand that you need to discard (or donate off) yet. So unless someone wants to trade or donate cards for consideration, I'll be double-checking whether anyone has valid Statesmen and/or Concessions to play, and then moving along to Turn Four's Mortality Phase, then the first segment of the Revenue Phase pretty quickly tonight (allowing some asynch lag for playing any such valid Faction cards).

Meanwhile, looking further forward! -- odds are good that the Republic may enter the Italian Era next Turn.  <:-) This will trigger a few game differences, but nothing that Players need to worry about planning to adjust for now. I'll discuss those differences when we cross that bridge.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 18, 2018, 06:19:03 PM
With Cincinnatus and Camilius gone to war, the Aristocrats have 16 Total Influence and 7 Normal Vote tally; and the Conservatives have 20 Total Influence and 8 Normal Vote tally. Of course, the Senate is closed so the voting tally doesn't matter any more this Turn -- but if the senators don't come home from War immediately, this will become a factor next Turn...!

Fabius of the Conservatives is the highest ranking available officer left behind, as the Pontifex Maximus.

Let's check in at the Fronts:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/2154/87G1at.jpg)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 18, 2018, 06:30:37 PM
(Due to quirkiness in how the game processes gravity and physics, the counters are currently shiver-creeping along in a hilarious fashion. Clearly the Marian reforms haven't happened yet...  :)) )

In lieu of other factors, the War with the oldest printed date gets resolved first.

So, Quinctius Cincinnatus vs. the Volscii!!

Cinc has led the 1st through 3rd Legions to the Volscia border, and prepares to receive the alea fati.

Total Legions: 3
Commander's Mil up to Legion total: +3
War Strength: -2

= Dice Roll Modifier +4

Add to 3d6 total...

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 4, 6, 2, total 12[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 18, 2018, 07:08:48 PM
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/9536/RH5RMB.jpg)

Add DRM 4 to 3d6 total 12 (no D/S result) = 16.

Victory! -- with 2 Legions as casualties. 1st and 2nd Legions fail their rolls last, and go back to the potential Force Pool. 3rd Legion goes back to Active Pool. Draws 2 Mortality chits, but Cinc's family is safe.

Unrest down 1 from 1 to 0. Republic gains 5 Talents from spoils, up to 41. New local territory unlocks Tax Farming Concessions 3 and 4.

Cin's Popularity goes up half War strength, so 2 / 2 = +1; but he loses that point again for losing two Legions. Influence also goes up by the same +1, from 10 to 11. Aristocrats farm 1 extra Inf point to be given to another Aristo senator. New Total Influence 28; Normal Vote recovers to 9.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 18, 2018, 07:09:47 PM
Extra influence to Valerius.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 18, 2018, 07:18:30 PM
Marcus Furius Camillus declares "Teneat dolor meus!"

Total Legions: 4
Cam's consequent Mil limit: +4
War power: -4
Net DRM: +4

Roll 3d6...

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 6, 1, 2, total 9[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 18, 2018, 07:34:39 PM
Add DRM +4 to 3d6 roll total 9 (no D/S result) = 13. Stalemate, no losses!

All Legions remain alive, no Mortality chits drawn for Camilus. Camy loses Field Marshal office (for being away from Rome on extended campaign, not for the non-Victory exactly), and becomes the Republic's first Proconsul!

Proconsuls cannot take units out to a War, and have no authority back at the Senate, but can receive reinforcement units, and can attack Wars. They can be recalled by the Senate (once a Senate is in session), and can be reinforced by a Consul arriving to attack the War with his own Force.

4 remaining Legions >= War Land Force 4, so "minimum Force" applies. War counts as Prosecuted for this Turn, so will not move to Unprosecuted slot. (If minimum Force does not remain, War would count as Unprosecuted.)

The rules, fortunately, do not ever require extra upkeep for units away from Rome, only the usual 2 Talents per turn.

This ends the Combat Phase!

I will now double-check Players for valid Faction cards able to be played in the Revolution Phase.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 18, 2018, 07:54:36 PM
TURN THREE -- REVOLUTION PHASE
-----------------------------------------

If any Players have valid Concessions and/or Statesmen to play to their mat, I have sent you a p-mail about it by now.

No one is able to Rebel against the Senate yet until the Early Era (and if you have enough Influence).

No one needs to reduce your Faction cards, so play any valid ones I've mentioned to you privately, and/or trade or donate for considerations as you see fit.

I'll start processing the first Phases of Turn Four, and if Players declare any cards I'll process those post hoc.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 18, 2018, 08:10:48 PM
TURN FOUR -- MORTALITY PHASE
--------------------------------------

Congratulations on the Republic surviving to Turn 4! Unrest is at a perfect low, the Republic's Treasury is reasonably full with more on the way soon, and your first Proconsul is handily keeping the nearby city of Veii from invading your borders.

Nor are there any Immanent Wars to Activate.


The Furies are apparently infatuated with the Flaminian boys, however, for after a vigorous shuffle, family #13 is drawn from the death bag again!!  :wow:

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rocweb.de%2Fxwp_guide%2Fseason_6%2Fs6_01_d%2Fscreenshots%2Fs6_01_11.jpg&hash=0e0f88bb52f0f00dd97bb4f6ef9b82e30fca1203)

(...not necessarily the best trio to catch the affections of?)

Fortunately, the family sends yet another new scion as Senator immediately, to keep control of the Faction Leadership. So in effect all that happens is Flam's popularity goes back to 0 from 2. Total Influence and Normal Vote Tallies remain the same (5 and 3).


I don't suppose it's much of a spoiler to confirm that there is at least one valid Faction card to be played from the Revolution Phase, which will naturally affect at least one Faction income calculation; so I'll wait until the Players have caught up before proceeding.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 19, 2018, 04:10:15 AM
Plautius gets another Tax Farmer Concession.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 19, 2018, 08:16:53 AM
Tripoli has told me by p-mail, that he's going to give a Tax Concession to Julius.

So I'll resolve those later this afternoon, 8 or 9 hours from now, and present the Players with their Faction accounting and income options for this Turn.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 19, 2018, 07:20:09 PM
TURN FOUR -- REVENUE PHASE
-----------------------------------

Segment One, Faction Income.

All Factions will have enough new Total that any number of Players could choose one of their senators to put on the lowest level of games (7 Talents), but there's no Unrest to reduce so be aware you'd only be buying 1 Popularity this way. (Though the Popularists would farm another 1 Pop as well; and Pop is how they get their activist votes.)

Some Factions will have enough new Total that a senator could donate 10 Talents to the Republic and pick up 1 Influence (which the Aristocrats would then spawn another Inf point from).

All Factions will have enough to give at least one senator 5 Talents for an automatic knight persuasion.

The Conservative Faction Leader Camilus is still off at War; but senators at War still generate all income anyway. I've copy-pasted him into the Conservative mat snapshot, for convenience!

Starting with Player One, clockwise:

I.I.'s Aristocrats: 0 starting cash; +0 senator cash; +3 +2 senator incomes; +1 +1 knight incomes; +3 Harbor Fees; +3 paid back by the Progressives (finishing contract) = new Faction Total 13 Talents.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/9859/kcmBOO.jpg)

Tripoli's Militarists: 8 starting cash; +0 senator cash; +3 +1 senator income; +1 +1 knight income; +2 Tax Farming = new Faction Total 16 Talents.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/6565/DrjQiA.jpg)

The Frog's Plutocrats: 3 starting cash; +0 senator cash; +5 (Plutocrat bonus) +2 senator income; +2x2 (Plutocrat bonus) knight income; plus 0 Concessions = 14 Talents.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/438/WjSPkJ.jpg)

AzTank's Conservatives: 5 starting cash; +2 +2 +2 +2 senator cash; +3 +3 senator income; +1 knight income; +0 Concessions; +4 (1d6 roll) PontMax income = 24 Talents.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/1638/tr1nsr.jpg)

Malize's Populists: 3 starting cash; +0 senator cash; +3 +1 senator income; +1 knight income; +3 Mining Concession = 11 Talents.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/702/IOgdcs.jpg)

Erax's Progressives: 0 starting cash; +0 senator cash; +3 +1 senator income; +0 knight income; +2 +2 Tax Faming Concessions; -3 paid back to the Aristocrats (completing that loan) = 5 Talents.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/6320/wnRJWM.jpg)

Erax is going to be away from his computer for a while, so he p-mailed me with distribution instructions: 2 to each senator, keeping 1. I've already made the adjustments in the snapshot.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 19, 2018, 07:43:24 PM
5 to Cornelius, 2 each to Cincinnatus and Valerius.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 19, 2018, 08:13:40 PM
I should add that not only do Proconsuls generate income, they can receive distributions and spend the money while still on campaign. The risk of course is that if they're killed, any unspent cash they're carrying will be lost.

This could be relevant to AzTank this Turn, but might be relevant for any Faction's senators later.  O:-)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 20, 2018, 12:38:07 AM
Populist — 5 to Aurelius, remainder stays in faction cash
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on October 20, 2018, 05:43:14 AM
Militarists: 5 to Manlius, Remainder to faction cash
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 20, 2018, 08:29:38 AM
The Frog sends a chat message that he'll give 4 Talents to each of his senators and keep the rest in Faction cash.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 20, 2018, 10:46:08 AM
Distribute 4 to each of my 4 guys, even the one on campaign.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 20, 2018, 01:36:16 PM
Okay, back from overtime work this morning, and I'm about to run the clock, implementing distributions, then advancing on into the Forum Phase.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 20, 2018, 01:55:03 PM
Segment 3 of the Revenue Phase

Republic income: 41 starting cash; +30 normal income; +25 Allied Enthusiasm (event resolved); -10 for Active Veientine War; (-2 upkeep x 5 Active Legions = ) -10 unit upkeep; -0 Land Bills = new total 76 Talents!  :bd:

I should however remind everyone, that this includes no less than seventy-five Talents donated to the Republic by Allied Enthusiasm, i.e. by sheer random luck. ;)

All random Event markers in the Forum are deleted; no historical Events to discard (Spolia Opima remains primed).

Time to start building history again! Will the Republic enter the Italian Era this Turn? (If not, you can be practically guaranteed next Turn...)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 20, 2018, 02:04:04 PM
TURN FOUR -- FORUM PHASE
---------------------------------

This time Player One himself, I.I., will play the starting round, clockwise from there. So the play order this Turn will be:

Aristocrats
Militarists
Plutocrats
Conservatives
Populists
and then Progressives (which will be handy for Erax since he may be away from the computer until after the weekend.)

This time, I'm going to ask each Player for a vote as we go around the table, on whether I should randomly assign two more Rounds this Turn. This will give the Players the option each Turn (starting now and going forward) to advance the play clock 33% faster, and also give two random players an extra 'round' for making a persuasion attempt or whatever. But if the Republic is going sucky (unlike right now), then Players can vote against it of course. I'll let Players change their votes at will, as they evaluate new Events and Scenarios arriving, up to the point where I finish the last standard round.


Kicking off with I.I.'s Aristocrats, then! -- rolling their Event/Scenario dice:

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 3, 6, total 9[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 20, 2018, 02:16:15 PM
Cornelius will take a knight with 5 cash.

I'll vote against for the moment.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 20, 2018, 02:19:08 PM
It's not a 7, so it's a Scenario draw. There are 5 Scenarios remaining in the Latin Era, and now 4 after the draw.

The Aristocrats draw a Faction card, which I.I. adds to his empty hand. I've sent him a Pmail already about what he drew, and whether/when he can play it.

I'll implement your knight pronto.

As far as other Players making plans go: you already know I won't be drawing more family Senators this Era (because I had to go into the Italian Era for a Senator to create the Progressive Faction with), so the only senators available for Persuasion are already assigned to the Players. The most vulnerable right now are Erax's two, who each have a Loyalty of 6 plus 2 Talents personal treasury, thus -8, minus another 7 for being in a Faction already, equals -15. A few other senators on the board have -16 and -17 ratings; and some senators have enough Influence + Oratory + personal cash to possibly but improbably persuade them to join your Factions instead. It would be a super-dickish move to snipe senators from the new players, however! -- but if you're curious about other players, drop me a question by p-mail.

No senator after income distribution this Turn, has enough personal cash to finance even first-level Games; and if you did, you'd only pick up 1 Popularity point (since there's no unrest).

Consequently, the main two choices this Turn for each Player will be as usual: who do you want to try for a knight (if anyone), and do you want to keep or change your Faction Leader?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 20, 2018, 02:30:52 PM
Cinc sacrifices 5 Talents to gain a knight (his first, a little surprisingly!); Normal Vote Tally goes up to 10. I will remind everyone later, that with Camilus of the Conservatives away from Rome, the Aristocrats have the highest total Influence at 28, and so their knights will vote x2 on all topics pro or con! -- so in effect I.I. has 13 votes for now, which will definitely hold through any Mandatory Business in the Senate Phase.

Current votes on 2 extra rounds are 0 to -1.

4 Scenarios remaining in the Latin Era.


Next up, Tripoli's Militarists, roll...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 1, 6, total 7[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 20, 2018, 02:31:38 PM
7 is a random event, so another 3d6...

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 3, 5, 5, total 13[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 20, 2018, 02:36:45 PM
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/8990/nQLKFu.jpg)

Wow!!  :o I'm kind of afraid to ask how y'all are inspiring such enthusiasm from Rome's local allies! That'll be another 25 Talents to the Republic Treasury next turn. (For a total of 100 in the game so far!  :o )

Tripoli, do you want Manlius to sacrifice his 5 Talents for an automatic knight? And do you want to keep or change your Faction Leader? Also, do you have a current vote on playing a 7th and 8th round this Turn?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 20, 2018, 05:05:22 PM
Populists:

Aurelius spends 5 for a Knight
No leader change
Nay on extra rounds
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on October 20, 2018, 05:49:03 PM
Yep-I'll be going after a 5th knight with Manlilus' gold, so it should be an automatic. No change on faction leader.  I'm in favor of an 8th round
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 20, 2018, 06:10:04 PM
Quote from: Tripoli on October 20, 2018, 05:49:03 PM
Yep-I'll be going after a 5th knight with Manlilus' gold, so it should be an automatic.

The knight is indeed automatically added as the minion of Manlius, but he and Julius only had 1 each. (Which is why each of them, as Militarist, had a +1 to their Mil scores.) Some of your persuasion rolls on prior Turns failed.

Manly has 2 knights now, Julius has 1. Manny's Mil score goes up to 7 -- so he could make full use of all 7 possible Legions! The Vote tally for the Militarists goes up to 8.

Votes for extra rounds this Turn are +1 and -1 (with at least 1 vote pending when we get there.)


The Frog's Plutocrats are up next, and roll...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 6, 1, total 7[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 20, 2018, 06:11:36 PM
That's another Random Event! -- which means the Republic will not enter the Italian Era this Turn (unless there are extra rounds perhaps).

Rolling again for the specific result...

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 1, 6, 2, total 9[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 20, 2018, 06:18:42 PM
Ouch! -- the Veientine War may have just gotten a little or a lot tougher!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/3702/o0bRYu.jpg)

I'll have to roll that 'physically' on the TTS board, which has one black and two white dice to work with, once we're in Combat again.

The Frog sent me a text message saying he'll take as many knights as he can get! -- ... which, uh, is good advice, indeed, but doesn't actually instruct me which of his senators is sacrificing cash to try for a knight, nor how much of it.

Since each Plutocrat senator has 4 Talents, they each have an equal chance of only failing on a 1, so I'll just roll and see what happens...

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 3, total 3[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 20, 2018, 06:27:40 PM
So a Plutocrat senator spent all 4 of his Talents and won a(nother?) knight as minion, but I don't know yet which one. Also, I don't know the Frog's vote on the extra rounds question.

AzTank's Conservatives roll...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 5, 1, total 6[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 20, 2018, 06:42:13 PM
Almost another Random Event, but not quite! This will be a Scenario draw.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/6660/fnIM45.jpg)

The Aequi, a one time ally of former King Tarquinius, living to the east of Latium in the Apennine Mountains, have decided that now is the time to take his territory while his successors are distracted!

Historically, this happened for the first time in 494 BCE, very shortly after Tarqy was ousted, and inspired the Senate to raise 10 Legions for the first time in Rome's history! -- but the Republic doesn't have those resources (yet) in this game. They also allied with the Volsci when Coriolanus led them to attempt a coup over the Senate.

Fortunately, the Aequian War(s) lacks much power in this game, at a Land Strength of only 2. With Allies threatening to desert, however, there's a 50/50 chance of them adding 1d6 power temporarily this Turn for that fight! Cincinnatus voids Disaster and Standoff automatic failure rolls against the Aequian War, but he can't be Consul again this Turn. (And no other Statesman on the board has this ability.)


Anyway, I'll need AzTank's choices now on who should sacrifice how many Talents (all his senators have 4 each) for a knight roll; and also his vote on whether to add two extra rounds to the Forum Phase this Turn.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 21, 2018, 11:12:00 AM
Papirius and Fabius each spend two for knights. Conservatives vote yes on extra rounds.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 21, 2018, 01:23:53 PM
The Frog notes from chat, that Fulvius is who used up his 4 Talents and who got the knight. Plutocrat Vote Tally increases to 12.

AzTank notes from chat that Papirius will be who tries for the knight this time; and if he gets it, and if the Players end up voting for extra rounds, and if he draws one of the extra rounds, then Fabius will try next time.

Papirius spends his 4 Talents; anything other than a 1 will win him a knight!

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 3, total 3[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 21, 2018, 01:30:16 PM
That's a win!  Normal Vote Tally goes up to 9.

Currently the vote for extra rounds is even at 2  and -2.

Malize upthread votes against the extra rounds, thus 2 and -3. Even if Erax votes for them, it'll be a tie not a majority, so no extra rounds this Turn.

Malize's Populists roll for an Event or Scenario:

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 1, 2, total 3[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 21, 2018, 01:38:28 PM
Not 7, so it's a Scenario, and he draws a historical Event:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/7056/SYYju5.jpg)

And that's going to change the game temporarily, and permanently!

I'll discuss the Twelve Tables in a minute (although the card is fairly detailed). First, finishing out Malize's round, as per his instructions upthread, Aurelius spends all 5 of his Talents on an automatic knight persuasion. Vote Tally goes up to 9. No Leader change.

I'll have to resolve some things in the historical event before going on to Erax's round.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 21, 2018, 02:05:19 PM
For historical context: Rome's laws had become a jumbled mess, kept somewhat secretly in the temples, which of course benefited the Patricians who alone had access to check the laws. The institution of the Republic hadn't exactly solved this problem! -- and the jumbling of the law was starting to hamper the Patricians themselves, not least fostering corruption among the senators exploiting contradictory and unclear laws.

So with agitation from the plebian citizens, and from populist senators, and even from some senators who just wanted more clarity so as not to fall foul of the law, a reformatory Tribunal Council was elected by the Senate: three Consuls rather than the usual pair of Consuls.

There's some dispute even among ancient historians (as well as modern) about whether the Consular Tribunes were meant to be permanent or temporary, but in any case their main task for the year was to study and harmonize the jumbled mess of Roman Law. At the end of their first year in office, they produced ten tablets of codified law to serve as the basis of Republican Law going forward. But they pleaded an extension of their term since there was still work to be done.

In the second year they produced two more tablets. But the Senate suspected that the Consuls were conspiring to seize permanent power for themselves as Consuls for Life, and a special prosecutor convicted them, stripping their titles and returning the Republic to two new Consuls elected each year. Yet it was generally agreed that the Consular Tribunes had done their job, and the 12 Tablets became the basis of Roman law for the Republic and for the subsequent Empire (out through the end of Constantinople near the start of the Renaissance period)!


What does that mean in game terms?

First, each senator with a major office aside from any Proconsuls (who only have consular authority in the field for fighting a war) and the Pontifex Maximus, loses his office, and also loses 1 Influence point due to suspicion of corruption. In practice for this game, that means Cincinnatus stops being Roman Consul and his Inf goes down to 10 (with the Aristocrat total going down to 27). There is no Field Consul right now; Camilus is a Proconsul in the field on extended campaign, so he's safe. And no other offices aside from PontMax have unlocked yet. The HRAO is now Fabius of the Conservatives, as Pontifex Maximus. He'll be the one to start the Senate soon.

Second, for one Turn only, the Senate will elect three Consuls, the Consular Tribunes. More on this when the Senate opens.

Third, if there was a senatorial family in the Curia waiting to respawn (or destroyed Concessions, or an inactive Enemy Leader), rolls regarding them would add +1 to their total. But nothing like that is waiting, so there will be no such effect for this game. (The 12 Tables are of course a unique historical event, so won't be returning.)

Fourth, next Turn (not this Turn), a new Senatorial office will unlock: the Censor. More about this later, but this is the permanent change in the game. Essentially the game is going to tempt players into competing against each other, instead of cooperating, by prosecuting each other with the Censorial office.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 21, 2018, 02:09:38 PM
Time for Erax's Progressives. He has already registered a vote against extra rounds, but with Malize's vote it doesn't matter now, there won't be extra rounds this Turn (unless two people change their vote to 'for' before I'm done processing Erax!)

Rolling for Event/Scenario:

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 2, 4, total 6[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 21, 2018, 02:19:12 PM
That's a Scenario, and Erax draws a Faction card, which he puts with the other one in his hand. I've p-mailed Erax to explain what it is, and when he can use it.

Plautius and Flaminius each have 2 Talents. I'll need to know which one will be rolling for a knight, and how much cash will be spent on the attempt. Also whether the Leader should change. It would be impossible for either of them to persuade another senator to join, so that won't be an option (for this Turn).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 22, 2018, 02:26:46 PM
Sorry guys, I had guests over for the weekend and wasn't home much.

Flaminius spends one on a possible knight, no leader change.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 22, 2018, 02:52:49 PM
I'll have to wait until later tonight to make adjustments and run the Population Phase, but we can do the roll now. If he spends 1 Talent, then a 5 or 6 will win:

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 6, total 6[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 22, 2018, 03:15:55 PM
Natural 6, that's a win! -- I'll add the knight tonight, and adjust up the normal vote tally.

Since the majority voted for no extra rounds (though a tie would also stay normal, no extra rounds), this ends the Forum Phase.

As preparation for upcoming phases, the Pontifex Maximus will be giving the State of Republic speech this Turn. Unrest is at zero, so it's physically impossible to lose the game this Turn by mob revolt, and odds are good unrest won't go up. I think Publius has some popularity to help shift off some of the worst results, too (working from memory here, don't hold me to that).

AzTank will be leading the start of the Senate, since his faction has the HRAO (the PontMax in this case), and his first mandatory business will be to Propose three Consuls, the Consular Tribunal. Each Consul will pick up 2 (not 3) Influence. (Same 6 influence total, divided out by 3 instead of 2 senators.)

Next Turn we'll be back to 2 Consuls for the rest of the game, at no penalty for the elected Tribunal (unlike historically!) so Players shouldn't worry about being elected: there is no downside in the game rules to being on the Tribunal.

Valid senators must be in Rome (not captured or at war), and must NOT be PontMax. So for practical purposes that's everyone but two of AzTank's senators (Camilius, off at war, and whoever the PontMax is, Fabius iirc.)

The Consular Tribunal has all the same characteristics of normal Consuls, including the authority to lead a Force to War -- this is one of the few ways to send out more than two senators per Turn to War if necessary, and while that didn't happen historically it's a handy way to clean up accumulated Wars before the Italian Era starts. However, I'm pretty sure (I'll check the rules) that the Senate can also vote to just send reinforcements to a commander already in the field. The difference is that the arriving Legions will operate under the Proconsul's command, while sending a Force with a Consul (or with a Dictator in emergencies but the Republic hasn't triggered enough of a crisis to unlock the Dictator office yet) means that two Leaders will be attacking the same War, one after the other, using distinct sets of Legions.

Anyway, you'll need to set up three Consuls this turn, all at once (like two Consuls normally), and I think this will be all the Mandatory Business for the Turn. Next Turn you'll start electing a Censor, but we'll crash that boat when we get to it. ;)

The HRAO, and thus the Presiding Magistrate post, will be decided between the three Consuls by Influence, then Oratory, with the oldest family (lowest family number) breaking any final ties. (I'm working from memory here, I'll have to check the rules; it might be by agreement and/or dicing as with the normal Roman and Field Consuls.)


So, Players should be looking ahead to how you're going to deal with the two current Wars, one of which (the Veientine) already has a competent commander though possibly not the most competent available. If you intend to replace him with, for example, Manlius (who can fully command all seven currently possible Legions, some of which will have to be raised again), then you'll need to vote to Recall him (at no personal penalty to him, if I recall correctly but I'll check), and then send a new Consul (one of the elected Tribunal) to replace him (with or without extra units -- the units currently in the field can stay there but they won't fight without a Commander leading them.)

I will note that Camilus does still void the D/S results for this War, and he can command all 7 Legions if you max his reinforcements out: he just can't help more than 5 of them fight to their full potential. His War Power with 7 Legions would be (5x2) + 2 = 12. Julius' would be (6x2) + 1 = 13. The Manly One would be 7x2=14.  :coolsmiley: But neither Julius nor Manly would be able to void a D/S roll.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 22, 2018, 04:00:29 PM
Let's see, I've got 30 minutes still at the house before I leave for the niece-party, so let's see if I can catch up!

TURN FOUR -- POPULATION PHASE
---------------------------------------

Nothing in the Curia currently to roll for, although the 12 Tables Event would add +1 to any such rolls this Turn.

No currently Unprosecuted Wars, and no Drought effects, so no Unrest adjustments. Unrest at 0.

Fabius is HRAO as PontMax currently (thanks to 12 Table Event), so he opens the Senate as Presiding Magistrate with the State of Republic Speech. Roll 3d6:

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 2, 3, 6, total 11[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 22, 2018, 04:22:11 PM
Fabius' Popularity 2 - 0 unrest + 3d6 total 11 = 13. That's a No Change. (The only plausible bad results in this circumstance might have been adding 1, 2, or maybe 3 to Unrest.)

With that, the Senate opens.

AzTank's Fabius will lead out with a Proposal on three senators for Consular Tribune, himself (as PontMax) and Camilus (at War as Proconsul) exempted.

Fabius as PontMax can also appoint one more senator as a priest at any time during this Phase, at will without a vote, if he wishes. Current priests are Fulvius of the Plutocrats, and Papirius of his own Conservatives.

I'll have to wait until tonight to post updated snapshots of the Player mats. Here's a snap of the current war situation, though:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/8338/O5GVmh.jpg)

Keep in mind that you've received a strong rumor, basically a 50/50 chance, that some of your allied support may temporarily desert this Turn, which you won't know for sure unless you fight. This won't be your Legions per se -- it's more like the logistic trains that keep them in supply. If this happens to a War you're fighting, the enemy will temporarily gain 1d6 force, which will factor into the dice-roll resolution. It can happen to either or both of the wars!

Also be aware that as long as you've got minimum Force at a War, which Camillus currently does, then he must attack the War. (If he has less than minimum Force, then his Player may opt to attack or not at his discretion, no personal penalty to the senator.) So if you don't want to attack that War this Turn, then you should either vote to pull back Camillus and/or at least one of his Legions (dropping him below the minimum force of 4 for this War). Legions parked at a War without a Commander, or at minimum Force with a Commander who opts out of attacking, will not be attacked by the War; but the War will be Unprosecuted, too. (Worth noting: if you do attack the War and you score less than a Victory and end up with less than minimum Force after casualties, the War will count as insufficiently prosecuted and thus as Unprosecuted!)

The rumors of Allied Desertion this Turn, will add some subtle factors into your decisions about how to handle the Wars this Turn.

Relatedly, the Republic has 76 Talents in the bank, and one Active Legion (the 3rd). Another two Legions (the 1st and 2nd) are waiting to be reconstituted in the Force Pool. The Republic can currently expect 30 Talents normal income next Turn, plus (yet!) another 25 Talents in Allied Enthusiasm.


That should be enough for preliminary discussions, if any happen tonight. I'll be back with snapshots before bedtime (probably)!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 22, 2018, 04:47:43 PM
I'd propose that we reinforce Camillus with all our legions or recall him and send Cincinnatus to fight the Aequii. Throwing everything at one war should minimize the risk of disaster if that event fires.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 22, 2018, 04:55:56 PM
Our options are: throw everything at the Aequian War, throw everything at the Veientine War or try a balanced approach like last turn. Given that 1) we are facing what amounts to a random reinforcement for BOTH wars (should we try to fight both) and 2) the Republic's treasury is practically overflowing and 3) unrest is low; I suggest we raise 2 legions and try to knock out the Veientine War with everything we have. We can weather one unprosecuted war next turn for -10 cash and +1 unrest.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 22, 2018, 05:03:54 PM
If the event doesn't fire (best case scenario), we have a 95% chance of victory.

If the event does fire (worst case scenario), it essentially takes out one of our dice, so we'd have to get 14+ on 2d6+8, which is still a 72% chance.

And JP, you can get the 'colored die' effect on forum code by rolling 2d6 and then a separate roll of 1d6.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 22, 2018, 08:06:44 PM
^^ True on the colored die effect, good call.

Keep in mind that if you beat the Veientine War, the Republic will permanently gain an extra 10 Talents per Turn of income (effectively immediately on the following Turn), and will permanently unlock the 8th, 9th, and 10th Legions in logistic potential. So you'll have an easier time beating on new Wars coming up -- and on the Aequian War (which only has an equivalent power of 2 Legions).

The War against your neighboring Etruscan city of Veia, is arguably the single most important War in the Latin Era, for this reason. The Republic gets a one-time spoil harvest from other Wars, and some semi-permanent taxable farmland to manage (representing the agri publica, or public land, granted to senators usually for management, if I recall the term properly); but the city of Veia seriously levels up the Republic.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 22, 2018, 08:30:41 PM
Snapshot updates for the Senate Phase of Turn Four!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/5691/NsZMxN.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/5274/82KqzJ.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/6106/1W1j1z.jpg)

M. Furius Camillus is still at War, of course -- I just composited him into the mat photo for convenience. Being at War, he isn't eligible to be one of the new Consular Tribunes. (Neither is Fabius, due to being Pontifex Maximus.)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/4848/dBDFgo.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/4845/5TpHW8.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/2923/7SmGju.jpg)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 22, 2018, 08:34:50 PM
As a note to AzTank: while the discussion of how to deal with the Wars is important, don't forget that your first (and possibly last, for this turn) duty as Presiding Magistrate, is to Propose three other senators (in Rome and not Fabius the PontMax) as Consuls.

Once that's done, the PM post will probably shift to some other Player, and he'll take over leading the Senate for the rest of this Turn, including making Proposals about whether to raise more Legions, which War(s) to prosecute, and how.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on October 22, 2018, 08:36:51 PM
Quote from: Erax on October 22, 2018, 04:55:56 PM
Our options are: throw everything at the Aequian War, throw everything at the Veientine War or try a balanced approach like last turn. Given that 1) we are facing what amounts to a random reinforcement for BOTH wars (should we try to fight both) and 2) the Republic's treasury is practically overflowing and 3) unrest is low; I suggest we raise 2 legions and try to knock out the Veientine War with everything we have. We can weather one unprosecuted war next turn for -10 cash and +1 unrest.

I recommend fighting only one war this turn.  Because of the importance of the  Veientine war, this is the war that should be emphasized
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 22, 2018, 09:00:35 PM
If y'all decide to go after the Veientine War and leave Aequius (Aequia?) for next time, keep that plan in mind when AzTank proposes voting on senators, because whoever gets to be on the Tribunal Council this turn will not get to be one of the two regular Consuls (Roman or Field) on Turn Five. And Cincinnatus voids the Aequian D/S results.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 23, 2018, 08:23:23 AM
Quote from: Tripoli on October 22, 2018, 08:36:51 PM
Quote from: Erax on October 22, 2018, 04:55:56 PM
Our options are: throw everything at the Aequian War, throw everything at the Veientine War or try a balanced approach like last turn. Given that 1) we are facing what amounts to a random reinforcement for BOTH wars (should we try to fight both) and 2) the Republic's treasury is practically overflowing and 3) unrest is low; I suggest we raise 2 legions and try to knock out the Veientine War with everything we have. We can weather one unprosecuted war next turn for -10 cash and +1 unrest.

I recommend fighting only one war this turn.  Because of the importance of the  Veientine war, this is the war that should be emphasized

Concur on the Veientine war. Also, raising at least 2 legions.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 23, 2018, 08:26:57 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on October 22, 2018, 09:00:35 PM
If y'all decide to go after the Veientine War and leave Aequius (Aequia?) for next time, keep that plan in mind when AzTank proposes voting on senators, because whoever gets to be on the Tribunal Council this turn will not get to be one of the two regular Consuls (Roman or Field) on Turn Five. And Cincinnatus voids the Aequian D/S results.

How about?

Papirus

Acilius

Valerius
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 23, 2018, 08:54:01 AM
Just for discussion, or are you calling the vote?

For ease of reference, Pap is here:

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg921%2F4848%2FdBDFgo.jpg&hash=bb3fd1b954ed46e08b26c53dbb48f3a06b0b600f)


Acilius is here:

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg923%2F6106%2F1W1j1z.jpg&hash=61a879f5483f0a2cdcae2c6972c08a230e5a525e)


Valerius is here:

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg924%2F5691%2FNsZMxN.jpg&hash=9abaeb3bbb4de90210af592554512e055a004e10)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 23, 2018, 09:36:58 AM
I would like to see some people who aren't Aristocrats, Plutocrats or Conservatives in office for a change.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 23, 2018, 09:47:14 AM
Quote from: Erax on October 23, 2018, 09:36:58 AM
I would like to see some people who aren't Aristocrats, Plutocrats or Conservatives in office for a change.

Let's just say that all is not above the table, and quid pro quo is a real thing....:)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 23, 2018, 11:25:32 AM
As an outside observer, watching the political dynamics in this game continues to be fascinating.

Now, what are the newcomers and/or the Militarists going to do about it...

Some things to consider:

In the classic statement of economic scepticism, in the long run everyone's dead. ;) Various bouts of mortality will necessarily change the power dynamics. It doesn't happen fast, but it can happen quickly (so to speak)! In fact, mortality has hampered Erax's Progressives more than once already, but by the exact same token (or death bag) the Reaper can come for anyone.

The new two non-original Players come from a group (so does I.I., I think) from which they could recruit more Players for the remaining two slots. If the Progressives and the Neutralists formed a voting block, they could quickly become a terrifying minority power.

Starting next Turn, the Censor office will open up for elections (thanks to the 12 Tables). It's a post guaranteed to tempt players to go after their political enemies and generate more friction, to the destruction of the Republic.  >:D

Several people are holding Tribune cards -- this isn't much of a spoiler since the game setup includes several preliminary ones in the Latin Era. Their functionality hasn't yet unlocked, but when they do then Players will be able to make their own Proposals -- and veto the Proposals of other Players! This won't take away all power from the Presiding Magistrate, since the Tribune cards are one-time fire-and-discard usage, but it's going to change the political dynamics again in various ways.

After the Italian Era, the Provincial Eras start, where the Republic will need senators sent out of Rome to be Governors. While that's a good way to gain power, too, it means that, like senators at War, they aren't around in Rome to affect Senate voting. So the political dynamic is going to complexify and change once again. (This is when the main game starts, and you can provisionally expect the Tribune functionality to activate before then or during the Early Provincial.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 23, 2018, 09:12:03 PM
Quote from: ArizonaTank on October 23, 2018, 09:47:14 AM
Quote from: Erax on October 23, 2018, 09:36:58 AM
I would like to see some people who aren't Aristocrats, Plutocrats or Conservatives in office for a change.

Let's just say that all is not above the table, and quid pro quo is a real thing....:)

Okay -- but were you actually calling for a vote? And if so, did you have a voting order?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 23, 2018, 09:44:45 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on October 23, 2018, 09:12:03 PM
Quote from: ArizonaTank on October 23, 2018, 09:47:14 AM
Quote from: Erax on October 23, 2018, 09:36:58 AM
I would like to see some people who aren't Aristocrats, Plutocrats or Conservatives in office for a change.

Let's just say that all is not above the table, and quid pro quo is a real thing....:)

Okay -- but were you actually calling for a vote? And if so, did you have a voting order?

I'd vote in favour.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 23, 2018, 09:48:43 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on October 23, 2018, 09:12:03 PM
Quote from: ArizonaTank on October 23, 2018, 09:47:14 AM
Quote from: Erax on October 23, 2018, 09:36:58 AM
I would like to see some people who aren't Aristocrats, Plutocrats or Conservatives in office for a change.

Let's just say that all is not above the table, and quid pro quo is a real thing....:)

Okay -- but were you actually calling for a vote? And if so, did you have a voting order?


Yes, calling for a vote, Conservatives first, they vote "For".  Next Plutocrats, Conservatives, Populists, Militarists and Progressives.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 23, 2018, 10:17:32 PM
Letting it run then!

The Militarists, Populists, and Progressives, have potentially 22 votes together against the Proposition.

The Aristocrats, starting things off, have 9 votes in favor. Plutocrats have potentially 12 either way; Aristocrats have potentially 13 either way (because they've got enough total Influence for their 3 knights to each bring x2 votes).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 24, 2018, 11:48:05 AM
I will vote for. 
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 24, 2018, 11:54:34 AM
Then the next Faction voting in favor will seal the Proposal 'for'. All remaining Factions will have to vote 'against' to foil the Proposal.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 24, 2018, 03:11:08 PM
The Aristocrats vote for.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 24, 2018, 04:27:36 PM
So that seals the vote. I'll process when I get back from dinner, tonight.

Tripoli will be on spotty internet access from now until Monday, so we'll keep that in mind when waiting for input. (He says he'll still check in on the thread when he can.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 24, 2018, 06:33:05 PM
All three senators gain Consular Tribune mark (and Prior Consul mark), and each gains 2 Influence.

Valerius Inf up to 9, which means since he has the highest Influence he becomes the HRAO and the Presiding Magistrate for this Senate; Aristo Inf up to 29. (The Consular Tribunes have no inherent superiority of office among them, unlike Roman and Field Consul.)

Acilius Inf up to 5; Plutocrat Inf up to 20.

Papirius Inf up to 6; Conservative Inf up to 22.

I.I. now controls the PM, so he runs this Turn's Senate going forward.

Consular Tribunes have no special duty in this game -- you don't have to work to create the Ten-and-then-Twelve Tables for example. Any CT can be sent to War in any order, except of course the current President who must resign his post to the next CT downstream (Papirius of the Conservatives, in this case) in order to be sent out before other CTs.


This ends the Mandatory Business for this Senate.

Useless but possible non-Mandatory Business would include passing a Land Bill, which I mention only for the sake of completeness. I.I. could propose stripping Fabius of his PontMax office, I suppose? -- and then assigning a new PontMax (which would then become Mandatory Business)? The two actions would not be simultaneous, unlike the PontMax reassigning a priesthood. Another useless Proposal would be to Disband the 3rd Legion.

Useful Proposals would include possibly Raising the 1st and/or 2nd Legions again; Deploying a Relief Force of one or more Legions to Camilius (this would not require a distinct Leader); Recalling Cam if y'all don't want him commanding that War any longer for some reason; Deploying a Support Force with a Consular Tribune as Leader to create a separate attack on Cam's War; and/or Deploying a Force under a CT to the Aequian War.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 24, 2018, 07:06:51 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on October 24, 2018, 06:33:05 PM
Useful Proposals would include possibly Raising the 1st and/or 2nd Legions again; Deploying a Relief Force of one or more Legions to Camilius (this would not require a distinct Leader); Recalling Cam if y'all don't want him commanding that War any longer for some reason; Deploying a Support Force with a Consular Tribune as Leader to create a separate attack on Cam's War; and/or Deploying a Force under a CT to the Aequian War.

We need to send troops to Cam to kick the war in the teeth and finish it.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 24, 2018, 07:21:40 PM
That would certainly give the Republic a permanent increase in income and logistic capability, too.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 24, 2018, 07:24:55 PM
Quote from: Erax on October 22, 2018, 05:03:54 PM
If the event doesn't fire (best case scenario), we have a 95% chance of victory.

If the event does fire (worst case scenario), it essentially takes out one of our dice, so we'd have to get 14+ on 2d6+8, which is still a 72% chance.

And JP, you can get the 'colored die' effect on forum code by rolling 2d6 and then a separate roll of 1d6.

Here is Erax's prior analysis again, from upthread, for convenience. The Event he's talking about is the 50/50 chance of Allies Deserting any fight this Turn. He's assuming the two potential remaining Legions are raised again and sent as a Reinforcement (aka Relief) Force to Camillus, for him to use (not replacing him nor as a follow-up attack under someone else's command).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 24, 2018, 07:33:04 PM
Valerius first proposes that the Republic raise the last two legions.

Unless somebody has a good reason to replace Camillus, I will be sending him all our legions next.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 24, 2018, 08:03:02 PM
Since he didn't specify a voting order with the Proposition, I'll assume there is none, opening the floor to any Player to vote at your preferred convenience.

The Aristocrats start with 7 normal, plus 3 knight, plus 3 more (activist x2) knight = 13 votes for.

As a reminder for reference, the Republic currently has 76 Talents in its Treasury, with an expected net income (not counting the Proposed Legions or any Victories) of 30 + 25 - (2x5) upkeep - (10x2) War cost = 25 more Talents next Turn.

Raising these Legions will cost 20 Talents now, 2x2=4 more upkeep Talents ongoing.

If you defeat the War, the Republic will earn another 10 Talents each Turn permanently (new base income = 40).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 25, 2018, 02:18:07 AM
The Progressives vote in favor of raising two legions.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 25, 2018, 08:38:16 AM
The Frog sent me a message voting 'for'.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 25, 2018, 10:04:47 AM
conservatives, vote "For"
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 25, 2018, 12:26:25 PM
Plutocrats add 9 + 3 knight votes; Conservatives add 8 + 1 knight; Progressives add 3 + 1 knight. So we're up to 13 (Aristocrats) + 25 others = 38.

That's a solid majority (17 votes remaining), so I'll process after work.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 25, 2018, 12:38:58 PM
Quote from: IncompetentIdiot on October 24, 2018, 07:33:04 PM
Unless somebody has a good reason to replace Camillus, I will be sending him all our legions next.

He didn't spell it out, but I'm inferring from context that he means this as an intention for a formal Proposal if X happens, which it has.

So that's 13 votes for sending all three (now) Active Legions to Reinforce Camillus. Presumably voting order is at will.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 25, 2018, 01:00:12 PM
Conservatives vote "for" sending legions to Cam
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 25, 2018, 04:25:55 PM
We already know that Tripoli's Militarists and Erax's Progressives would vote in favor of throwing everything at Cam's War, so their votes can be added in as well.

That's 13 Aristo (including activist x2 knights); +8 Mils; +8 +1 (knights) +1 (priest on Deployment) +2 (PontMax double vote on Deployment) Conservs; +4 Progs = 37 votes so far 'for'.

Even if the Plutocrats and the Populists voted against the Proposal, they could only bring, respectively, 13 (including priest vote) +9 = 21 votes against, so the Proposal will pass.

Since no useful or unlocked Proposal options remain, this effectively ends the Senate, unless AzTank's Papirus the Pontifex Maximus wants to appoint or reassign a priest. For asynch purposes I'll allow some lag here, if so.

I'll process the Combat Phase soon.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 25, 2018, 04:42:51 PM
TURN FOUR -- COMBAT PHASE
----------------------------------

Marcus Furius Camillus prepares to face the Fate of the Veii!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/3697/eGvR2H.jpg)

He has come well prepared. But whether Rome's allied logistic support defects their supplies to the Veians remains to be seen...

Total Legions = 7
Total Effective Commander rating = +5
Veian War Land Strength = -4
Die Roll Modifier = +8

Camillus rolls 3d6, ignoring any D/S results against this War -- but Allied Desertion means that if the total is even instead of odd, then the value of the first die gets counted in favor of Veia instead.

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 2, 6, 5, total 13[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 25, 2018, 05:08:00 PM
13!! -- the auxiliaries support the Republic after all!

13+8 = 21. Any result over 17 is a total Victory, no casualties!!  :clap:  <:-)


Unrest -1, but it's already at minimum 0 (no unrest). No Enemy Leader defeated, so Spolia Opima doesn't trigger yet. No spoils for this War either. Instead, Rome's annual income increases by 10 Talents, up to 40! The 8th, 9th, and 10th Legions are added to the logistic Force Pool. This War is permanently discarded, and with no other Wars fought this Turn the Allied Desertion Event is removed.

Camillus gains half the War strength (or 4/2=2) in Influence (now 10) and Popularity (now 2). No casualties, so no Popularity lost, and no death chits drawn. Camillus returns to Rome, and his Legions (1st thru 7th inclusive) return to the Active Pool. Conservative Total Influence increases from 22 to 32; normal vote from 9 to 13. Camillus' Proconsul office ends.

This also ends the Combat Phase. Revolution Phase next, and the end of Turn Four!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 25, 2018, 05:21:26 PM
TURN FOUR -- REVOLUTION PHASE
---------------------------------------

No one can rebel against the Senate yet.

No previously dedicated Faction cards to pick up.

No Player needs to reduce their hand.

If you have a playable Concession or Statesman Faction card, I have p-mailed you already.

Since there is at least one card to be played, and since the play might be affected by Mortality, or might affect Revenue, I will hold up a little while before advancing into Turn Five.

Players may trade or donate Faction cards to each other immediately for a little while, with some lag allowed for asynch purposes. After a reasonable period, I'll regard any such transfer as Delayed for resolution at the end of Turn Five.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 25, 2018, 05:24:55 PM
Cornelius acquires tax farming privileges in the newly conquered lands (Tax Farm 1).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 25, 2018, 06:02:17 PM
TURN FIVE -- INTRODUCTION TO THE ITALIAN ERA
----------------------------------------------------------

While we're waiting, I'll talk a little about what can be expected as the game advances into its first new Era!  <:-)

0.) Obviously there will be some historical Events, including Wars and things of that sort, which will show up only in the Italian Era, and I'm not going to spoil those.

00.) Strictly speaking, the Italian Era hasn't started yet, but I've gone ahead and plopped the remaining Latin Era Scenario card onto the top of its pile. That makes 23 cards in the pile.

1.) A new Era typically starts when a card of its Era is first played openly face up somehow. That means an orange border card in this case. It also means that simply dealing out an orange border Faction card doesn't trigger the new Era, since I'm giving it to the Player face down.

2.) I say "typically", because the Italian (and for that matter the Latin) Era doesn't usually treat Early Era (white border) cards that way: Early Era cards don't usually trigger the Early Era.

3.) I say "usually" ;), because after a certain point the next Early Era (white-bordered) card played face-up will trigger the start of the Early Provincial Era, and thus the start of the main game! -- the Latin and Italian Eras are a tutorial prologue in effect, introducing much of the game functionality and rules progressively.

4.) When does the Early Era trigger? For the Italian and all subsequent Eras, during deck creation I took the last 6 cards of an Era and the first 6 cards of the next Era, having shuffled those Era decks already, and then shuffled those 12 cards together, stacking them under the current Era. There was a slight difference in doing this for the Italian Era, based on the "Birth of the Republic" expansion rules for distributing Early Era cards through the Latin and Italian Eras, but the basic concept is the same. Normally this means that cards for the next Era will start showing up randomly in a 50/50 distribution during the final 12 cards of an Era, and once a next-Era card gets played face up then any remaining cards in the deck are stacked on top of the next Era, triggering the start of that Era. Since the Italian Era has some selected white-bordered Early Era cards shuffled throughout it anyway, the normal rule applies a little differently: the Early Provincial Era can't start until there are only 6 cards remaining in the Italian deck. At that point, the next white-bordered card played face up after drawing from the 6 remaining, will trigger the Early Era.

(The "Early Era" and "Early Provincial Era" are the same thing; I just like to distinguish the main game Eras as "provincial", since otherwise the Latin and Italian Eras are Earlier-than-Early Eras.  ::) Provinces can't unlock until the "Early Era", so from that point the Eras are also "Provincial".)


5.) White-bordered "Early Era" Statesmen will start being dealt out as Faction cards to Players in the Italian Era. However, they will not be unlocked for play (during Revolutionary Phases as usual) until we're into the final 6 cards of the Italian Era.

6.) Once the Early Era starts, all currently active Italian and Latin Era Statesmen (yellow and orange borders) will retire, and so discard permanently out of play. If a Statesman's family card is already politically active under him, that family Senator will inherit all the Statesman's chips. (The families of Conservative Statesmen always inherit if active, so that'll be business as usual for AzTank.  ^-^ But this will be the only time it also applies for other Factions. Usually when Statesmen die, their families under them start over empty with their standard family stats, though still in the same Faction.) Otherwise the chips are lost with the Statesman as if he died. The Era cannot start by playing an Early Statesman on a pre-Early Statesman, except for Quinctius Flaminius, who can inherit from Cincinnatus this way -- he is the only Statesman who can thus inherit directly from another Statesman. However, once the Early Era is going, new Statesmen can be played on family Senators who have inherited chips from per-Early Statesmen, thus inheriting those chips from the family as usual for all Players.

7.) Once the Italian Era starts, several Senatorial Offices will grant +2 more Influence upon election.

8.) Once the Italian Era starts, a Random Event total of 15, which would normally be Allied Enthusiasm, will grant the Republic 4 Fleets from an alliance with Carthage instead! This is kind of insidious, since while you don't have to pay the 40 Talents to create them, you'll still have to pay 2 per Fleet per Turn for upkeep, and you won't have any opportunity to use them until some Wars of the Early Era arrive -- and when (not if) the 1st Punic War arrives, Carthage will take all survivors of those 4 Fleets back! (The expansion rules say the HRAO will decide which four fleets go back, but that doesn't make any sense, so I'm tweaking the rule. In the event of a Carthaginian Alliance, I'll deal out the 23rd through 25th Fleets as being from Carthage, since it's practically impossible for Rome to build more than 22 Fleets before the 1st Punic War triggers.)


I think that covers all the automatic rule changes for the Italian Era, once it happens, which should be during the Forum Phase of this upcoming Turn. Any other rule changes should happen as historical Events.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 25, 2018, 06:20:37 PM
TURN FIVE -- MORTALITY PHASE
------------------------------------

As noted, Cornelius arranges a Tax Farming Concession for himself in some Latium areas which tried to support the last king Tarquinius in overthrowing the nascent Republic!

No Immanent Wars to promote to Active yet.

An x2 chip is drawn from the Sack of Death!! It gets put back in, and the sack thoroughly reshuffled again. Two chits will be drawn.

Patricians from families 21 and 25 die during the winter, but those families aren't politically active yet. (Or not enough to matter.  ::) ) Spurius Cassius Vicellinus of the Conservatives breathes a sigh of relief as the Kindly Ones pass him by. (His family is #24, and won't be politically active again until sometime in the Middle Era.)


This ends the Mortality Phase. I'll process Faction Incomes of the Revenue Phase next.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 25, 2018, 07:25:59 PM
TURN FIVE -- REVENUE PHASE
----------------------------------

Before I do the report (with photos for convenience), each Faction has enough cash that one of their senators (in some cases two) could buy 1 influence by donating 10 Talents to the Republic, which without donations will definitely have a new net total of 97 Talents by the end of this Phase. AzTank has enough cash (29) that he could donate 25 Talents to give 3 Influence to one senator!

Looking ahead to the coming Forum Phase, all Factions have enough cash that one senator from each Faction could throw at least a level 1 Gladiatorial game (for 7 Talents); in some cases up to a level 3 (for 18 Talents). Unrest is currently zero, although who knows what will trigger during the Forum Phase? The assured goal would be to gain Popularity (1, 2, or 3 points depending on level of the games). Only 1 senator per Faction can Sponsor Games per Turn (unlike Donations to the Republic).

Of course everyone has enough to give one of your senators an automatic knight (sacrificing 5 Talents). New families might start becoming politically active in the Forum this Turn, however, so making sure your best persuader (Inf + Ora) has cash for bribery might or might not be a good idea again!

Finally, before the accounting starts: thanks to the 12 Tables historical Event, a Censor will be elected each Turn starting with this Senate, who will be able to prosecute senators on suspicion of corruption. There are two levels of suspicion, Minor and Major; and each triggering Concession (most of which happen automatically, though not always during the Revenue Phase) always generates a Minor marker (which stacks per Concession triggered) for its senator.

The upshot is that minor suspicion markers will now be given to senators starting from this Revenue Phase going forward. I'll explain more how this works out in practice, when we get to the Censor Proposal business of the Senate Phase this Turn. For now, all you need to know is that the only way to avoid minor suspicion from Concessions, is not to give your senators Concessions! ;) There's no way to get rid of suspicion markers (or Concessions for that matter) directly: you'll lose a marker, one way or another, during a Prosecution; and all your markers will disappear at the end of any Senate Phase; and if you lose a Concession somehow while you're still marked with suspicion, then you'll lose its mark, too. (The Censor cannot prosecute you over a Concession you don't have anymore.)

If you're wondering how to get a Major suspicion marker, the main way is to hold a Major Office: everything and anything from PontMax upward (including Censor). Those get assigned at the start of the Senate Phase, including starting this Turn. The PontMax can also earn a Major marker if he loses his PontMax office due to a run of Evil Omens. (He might otherwise not get one at the start of the Senate if he doesn't have another Major Office.)

The only other way I can think of offhand to get (the equivalent of) a Major marker, is for one of your senators to try to assassinate someone: if he gets caught, and if he isn't your Faction Leader, then your Leader goes immediately to a Special Major Prosecution for conspiracy to murder. But that's a case of where he gets a Major marker and immediately loses it (one way or another) by the trial.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 25, 2018, 07:43:24 PM
Okay, enough preliminaries. Time for the Faction accounting!  <:-)

I.I's Aristocrats: 4 starting cash; +2 +2 senator cash; +3 +2 senator income; +3 knights income; +2 Tax Farming +3 Harbor Fees
= new Faction total 21 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/4708/BnjMYc.jpg)



Tripoli's Militarists: 11 starting cash; +0 senator cash; +3 +1 senator income; +3 knights income; +2 Tax Farming
= new Faction total 20 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/2549/obXPTZ.jpg)



The Frog's Plutocrats: 2 starting cash; +4 +4 senator cash; +5 (faction bonus) +2 senator income; +3 knights income +3 knight faction bonus; +0 Concessions
= new Faction total 23 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/3607/0ElM1j.jpg)



AzTank's Conservatives: 8 starting cash; +4 +4 +4 senator cash; +3 +3 senator income; +2 knights income; +1 (random 1d6) PontMax income; +0 Concessions
= new Faction total 29 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/6607/3Ehygo.jpg)



Malize's Populists: 6 starting cash; +0 senator cash; +3 +1 senator income; +2 knights income; +3 Mining Concession
= new Faction total 15 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/5272/ZzTexG.jpg)



Erax's Progressives: 1 starting cash; +1 +2 senator cash; +3 +1 senator income; +1 knight income; +2 +2 Tax Farming Concessions
= new Faction total 13 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/9602/nbEmo8.jpg)


(If you see little blue bags next to your Total Influence counters now? -- those are the Major/Minor marker source bags. The minor suspicion chit actually says "corrupto"; major is spelled "mayor" per Latin.)

Anyone can send in their Revenue Choices in any order -- they still come down (this Turn) to distribution among your senators, and announcing donations from senators to the Republic's Treasury.

However, if you're sure about how you will use your cash during your round of the upcoming Forum Phase (which will start with I.I. since he's the most influential Consular Tribune right now), you can go ahead and tell me now and I'll resolve it when the time comes. If you tell me "and nothing else", I'll move along to the next Player around the table in the Forum Phase without checking to see if you want to act on any new opportunities that might have come up -- but I'll be fair and still allow some lag for asynch, so long as you don't try to pre-empt someone else's choice to take advantage of the same opportunity.

...and with that, I'm done for the night! See y'all tomorrow! phew.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 25, 2018, 07:57:40 PM
19 to Cornelius, who donates 10 for influence.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 25, 2018, 10:55:19 PM
13 to Brutus
2 to Aurelius

Brutus will Sponsor games to honor the great victory
Aurelius will try for a knight

Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 26, 2018, 04:23:24 AM
Flaminius 10, Plautius 2, Faction Treasury 1. No donations. Plautius will spend 1 on a knight roll in the Forum Phase.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 26, 2018, 08:26:29 AM
3 talents to each of my 4 guys, total 12. Fabius will spend 2 to try for a knight.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 10:29:51 AM
I'll process them after work asap.

Keep in mind that Tripoli won't be where he can access the internet much over the weekend, so while he'll try to check in and make choices for his Faction, we could run into some delay until sometime after Sunday.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 12:12:13 PM
Tripoli sends a message: "Julius will buy  a knight for 5.  Remainder in Faction treasury."

That leaves the Frog, I think.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 26, 2018, 05:59:57 PM
6 to each senator, remainder in faction cash. 
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 26, 2018, 06:02:15 PM
Fulvius will buy a knight. 
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 06:52:58 PM
All righty then, everyone has their choices reported (more or less, with some possible leeway for later in the Forum phase perhaps), and it's time to run the clock!

I.I. gives 19 to Cornelius, keeping 2. Cornelius immediately donates 10 to the Republic (up to 66 Talents) for 1 influence (up to 11, total up to 30). No stated plans yet for the Forum Phase.

Tripoli gives 5 to Julius, to buy a knight later, keeping 15.

The Frog gives 6 to each senator, keeping 5. Fulvius plans to buy a knight later.

AzTank gives 3 to each senator, keeping 17. Fabius will spend 2 of his 3 later, trying to persuade a knight.

Malize gives 13 to Brutus (who will spend all of his on level 2 games later) and 2 to Aurelius (who will gamble his on a knight later), keeping nothing.

Erax gives Flaminius 10, Plautius 2, and keeps 1. Plaut will gamble 1 of his 2 on a knight later.

This ends the second Revenue Phase segment.

Third segment, Republic income: 66 starting cash; +40 (new!) standard income; +25 (yet another!) Allied Enthusiasm event resolves; (7 Legions x 2 Talents) -14 unit upkeep; -10 Active Aequian War; -0 Land Bills = new total 107 Talentons of silver!  <:-) :bd:

For context, it should be kept in mind that 100 Talents of this silver comes purely from random Allied Enthusiasm. ;) But without them you'd still be 7 Talents in the black, though possibly needing an ongoing high Consulship of Plutocrats to stay solvent.

Allied Enthusiasm Event resolves out. The Twelve Tables historical Event discards. The Spolia Opima historical Event remains untriggered. This ends the Revenue Phase for Turn Five.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 06:56:03 PM
TURN FIVE -- FORUM PHASE
------------------------

I.I. has the current HRAO, so starts the Forum Phase clockwise around the board. Rolls for Scenario/Event...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 3, 1, total 4[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 07:08:43 PM
Not a 7, so that's a Scenario card -- the last from the Latin Deck. (Though the Italian Era hasn't strictly started yet.)

As it happens, it's a Faction card, which I've given face-down to I.I. -- currently this is the only card in your hand. I've sent you a p-mail about it already.

You didn't specify whether you want Corny to try for a knight, and whether he'll automatically persuade one with 5 Talents if so.

Cornelius can also sponsor Games, up to level 3 for 18 Talents, though currently the only benefit would be additional Popularity (unrest is 0). Paying for this might preclude other options of course.

Lastly, you may freely change Faction Leadership at this time, as always.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 26, 2018, 07:27:28 PM
Sure, I'll drop 5 on a knight.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 07:47:39 PM
Cornelius spends 5 of his 9 Talents to pick up his 2nd minion; normal vote tally up to 11. Presumably this ends the Aristocrats' round.

Next up, Tripoli's Militarists roll for the first Scenario or random Event from the Italian deck...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 6, 3, total 9[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 08:09:24 PM
Not a 7, so the first Scenario card from the deck! (All the yellow-bordered cards are now either played, discarded, or dealt out.)

It's a red-text Faction card however, so I've sent it to Tripoli's mat face down, and I've sent a p-mail to him explaining it. I'm excited to see its arrival, but who knows when it will be played?!  :D

Per his instructions, Julius spends his 5 Talents automatically adding a 2nd knight as his minion, increasing his Mil score to 6 (per Militarist special abilities) and the vote tally to 9.


The Frog's Plutocrats roll...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 1, 4, total 5[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 08:25:28 PM
Not a 7, so it's another Scenario card, namely:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/9495/92L5cP.jpg)

The Ultra-general of his generation arrives, the King of Molossus and later of Epirus, a second cousin of Alexander the Great and one of the aspirant Successors (sort of), PYRRHUS!  <:-) :hide:

Since he has no current War, he goes to the Curia in the Forum to await his fate.


Note the orange border: this triggers the actual start of the ITALIAN ERA! ...wow that color scheme doesn't look so good on the forum's blue background.  L:-)

Please refer back here for an introduction to rule changes triggering in this new Era: http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=22942.msg634176#msg634176

The upshot is, not many really. ;) Or not yet. The main practical difference is that most Senatorial Offices (not PontMax) gain +2 Influence awarded for election.

Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 08:29:40 PM
Meanwhile, per the Frog's prior instructions, Fulvius sacrifices 5 of his Talents to buy a 2nd minion. Plutocrat vote tally goes up to 13. This ends his round.


AzTank's Conservatives roll...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 1, 3, total 4[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 08:40:17 PM
Not 7, so yet another Scenario, namely the Circus Maximus historical Event!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/7002/Lzw7wL.jpg)

Rome's first Circus Maximus was built very early in the Republic's history, and was only a wooden structure at first.

Like the Spolia Opima there next to it, this Event hangs out in the Forum until triggered. Unlike the Spolia, any senator can pay to discard it at any time, thus gaining its benefits. Also unlike the Spolia, this Event costs the Republic a little construction-upkeep cash every Turn until some senator pays to finish building it!

(Also like the Spolia, the Birth of the Republic rules mention the CircMax event -- as part of the Italian not the Latin Era -- but I never found any information, including online, about what the Event in the game involves. So I made a reasonable guess based on its history, and created the card myself.  O:-) )
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 08:43:43 PM
Per his prior instructions, AzTank's Fabius spends 2 of his Talents to roll for a knight. He'll thus succeed on a 4 or better:

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 6, total 6[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 08:48:01 PM
Wins with a natural 6! Fabius gets his first minion, and the Aristocrat normal vote tally goes up to 14. As far as I know, this ends AzTank's round.


Malize's Populists roll...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 5, 5, total 10[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 09:08:37 PM
A hard 10! -- man, a craps table laying side odds on this roll streak would be raking in cash!

That's a Scenario, which turns out to be a Faction card sent face-down to Malize's hand along with his other one (making two of them). I've sent him a pmail about it already.

In the process, Malize p-mailed me to make sure he could change his original plan, and get first dibs on buying the Circus Maximus, which yes he can! I'll process that next.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 26, 2018, 09:20:00 PM
Malize, you should wait until the population phase so we have some Unrest to reduce, I promise not to spend the 10 gold on Flaminius on the Circus Maximus until you've had your opportunity.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 09:26:21 PM
...I'll hold off processing a little while until Players have had opportunities to try convincing Malize not to buy it yet.

He's snagged the first right to buy it, however, unless he verbally and publicly agrees to relinquish it.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 26, 2018, 09:30:02 PM
I think I'm the only other player who could buy it this turn so he's safe.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 09:37:14 PM
I was about to comment, but I don't want to say anything that would give preferential advice to one player per se.

Any inference any player draws from that statement, is that player's responsibility, and I do not guarantee its correctness.  ^-^ (Unless someone asks me about matters of fact, of course.)

With that, I'm hitting the sack tonight, and will check in tomorrow morning. Busy evening umping tonight! -- glad to be moving the game along so well.  O:-)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on October 27, 2018, 06:04:52 AM
I agree, it would be best to wait until we have some unrest efore buying the Circus card.   Dropping unrest by 5 could come in handy
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 27, 2018, 10:03:26 AM
Still no resolution from Malize yet, so I'm not advancing the clock, just in case.  O:-)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 27, 2018, 10:39:10 AM
I'd be willing to commit to a binding agreement to refrain from funding the Circus until Malize does so at a time of greater need for the Republic.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 27, 2018, 11:32:31 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on October 27, 2018, 10:03:26 AM
Still no resolution from Malize yet, so I'm not advancing the clock, just in case.  O:-)

Seems to me there's no need for you to wait. 

Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 27, 2018, 12:00:53 PM
With that confirmation, Malize changes his original plan, and has Brutus spend 10 of his 13 Talents buying the Circus Maximus!

Brutus gains 5 Inf (up to 12) and 5 Pop (up to 6). Aurelius, the only other Populist senator right now, gains the extra 1 Pop (up to 1) from the Faction's special abilities. The Populist ability to get extra votes from Pop points, also means the Populist Vote Tally (on any topic, pro or con), just went up to 15!

Of course, he can't get extra funds this way, as he would from knights and their extra votes; and Popularity can be lost rather more easily than losing knights. Also, every senator has an absolute maximum Popularity of 9, so there are limits (unlike with knights!) to how far this ability can go. Popularity usually (but not always, as with here) costs more per point gained than for knights, too.


Last around the table for the Forum Phase this turn, are Erax's Progressives, who roll...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 2, 6, total 8[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 27, 2018, 12:20:19 PM
Close to a 7, but not exactly, so that's a final Scenario card for this Turn. He draws a red-text Faction card to his hand, and I've p-mailed him about it already.

Erax originally planned for Flaminius to spend 5 of his Talents on an automatic knight gain, and I don't think the situation has changed where he would spend it on something else. He'd only have a senator Persuasion total of +15, so his chances of picking up a senator from someone else's Faction would still be remote to impossible -- and even for remote, his chances would be proportionately high that he'd only be giving that cash to that senator (and thus, in effect, to that Player for usage and redistribution later).

Thus, Flam gains a 2nd minion, and the Faction normal vote tally goes up to 5.

It is possible that Erax may want to play some number of his Faction cards (at least one being valid) this round, but based on what that card or those cards might be, I can and will allow a reasonable lag time for application if he does.

Moving along then, this ends the Forum Phase (aside from possible Erax lag), and on into the Population Phase.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 27, 2018, 12:48:47 PM
TURN FIVE -- POPULATION PHASE
-----------------------------

Putting Rome in order, preparing for the Senate!

Starting this Turn, and for the rest of the game, all senators with major offices get a Major suspicion marker. This Turn, that's
Tribunal Consul Valerius of the Aristocrats (currently also the HRAO, who will open the Senate as Presiding Magistrate); Tribunal Consul Acilius of the Plutocrats; and Tribunal Consul Papirius, and Pontifex Maximus Fabius, of the Conservatives. (This sort of represents the suspicion of the Tribunal Council plotting to make themselves Consuls for Life historically, and being deposed, thus creating the subsequent office of the Censor; but more on this soon.)

There's an Enemy Leader waiting in the Curia, to roll for. He dies without his War on a roll of 5 or better...

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 5, total 5[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 27, 2018, 12:58:04 PM
The Republic has been amazingly fortunate in this game: that's two Leaders removed without facing them in their Wars!

The Aequian War went Unprosecuted last turn...

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/7185/WMov7q.jpg)

...so Public Unrest has gone up +1 to 1.

Consular Tribune Valerius of the Aristocrats opens the Senate this Turn with his State of the Republic speech...

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 3, 6, 2, total 11[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 27, 2018, 01:07:17 PM
Speech total 11, - 1 Unrest, +2 Valerius' Oratory skill = 12, No Change.

TURN FIVE -- SENATE PHASE
---------------------------------

Here are the Player mats for ease of reference, clockwise from Player One:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/1043/H1s4wC.jpg)



(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/8982/14mFS9.jpg)



(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/4909/1CRQvg.jpg)



(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/9268/OIOdg9.jpg)



(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/8550/iUmrHM.jpg)



(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/9326/8aHE8v.jpg)


The Republic has seven Active Legions (1st thru 7th inclusive), and another three (8th thru 10th) potentially in the Force Pool.

You have 107 Talents in the Treasury. Expected income next Turn is 40 Talents; expected expenses are -14 unit upkeep, and -10 if the War continues. Net expected income thus 40 - 24 = +16.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 27, 2018, 01:48:29 PM
As usual, Pontifex Maximus Fabius of the Conservative Faction, can appoint or reassign a priesthood to any one senator, at will, any time during the Senate.

The Mandatory Business this Senate will be for I.I.'s Valerius to successfully Propose two new Consuls (as usual except for last Turn), who will settle Roman and Field Consul duties between them.

Then the new Roman Consul must successfully Propose a new office, and henceforth for each Senate Phase in the game: the Censor.

Censors can be any senator Aligned with a Faction, in Rome -- which is every senator currently -- who has previously held any Consul office even once. (This is the whole point to the little green "Prior Consul" markers.) He cannot currently hold Consular or Dictatorial office. (Dictator functionality, as well as Master of Horse, only unlocks if too many Wars are Active at once, so I'm mostly ignoring those offices until such time as it's relevant.)

The Censor will be the next highest Senatorial office after the Consuls. He cannot go to War, so (unless he is assassinated!) he will always be HRAO if both Consuls leave Rome. Consequently, he also cannot be appointed as a Governor (once the Republic starts gaining Provinces outside Italy). A new Censor must be elected each Turn after Consular elections; but (as far as I can tell) the current Censor can be elected Censor again, as long as he's still valid.

Once a Censor is elected, the Presiding Magistrate post will shift to him temporarily, so that he may conduct Prosecutions.

Historically, Censors were responsible for (among other things) checking to make sure that Senators didn't have outstanding criminal or character problems. In game terms, this means the Player controlling the Censor can, at his choice, launch either one Major Prosecution, or up to 2 Minor Prosecutions. He cannot launch a Prosecution against himself (unless he is the Faction Leader of an assassination attempt!), but he can Prosecute senators from his own Faction!

This involves a lot of new rules which I won't get into until and unless the Censor announces a Prosecution. For now what's important is that typically Minor Convictions result in the Accused losing 5 Popularity, 5 Influence, and any Concessions (which go to the Forum for possible reassignment by vote as Other Business). Major suspicions can be treated as Minor Prosecutions. In a Major Conviction, the Accused dies! There are also results for the Accused being Freed; and the Censor as well as his chosen Prosecutor (who cannot be himself but who acts as what used to be called in Western jurisprudence the Judge Advocate), and the Accused's chosen Advocate (whether himself or some other senator), may also gain or lose stats depending on the outcome.

It is not possible for the Censor to undertake more than one Prosecution per Turn -- except Special Major Prosecutions for the Faction Leader of any caught assassins! -- and then only two Minor Prosecutions. So while it can add some extra action to any Senate Phase, it won't be a massive amount. There are several choices involved along the way, but the mechanics are worked out with stats and dice rolls.

Once the Censor declares no, or no more, Prosecutions; or runs out of Prosecution attempts; or his Influence goes to zero; or he dies (from assassination!), then the Prosecution segment is over and the Presiding Magistrate post goes back to the HRAO (usually the Roman Consul).

Prosecutions are not Proposals, which can make a difference for some voting purposes (like the Conservatives' activist knights: their vote only counts x2 when against Proposals, not 'for' Proposals, nor during Prosecutions either way.)

The Censor office changes the game in some ways both large and subtle, so I recommend Players check the Living Rules, and also my "Sabrerules" compilation flowsheet (which need a bit of updating but not about the Censor yet).
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 27, 2018, 01:54:36 PM
So! -- with that introduction to the Censorial office, we now await I.I. making a Proposal for two new Consuls.  O:-) Or possibly just floating an idea for them without calling for an official Proposal yet.

(Presiding Magistrates SHOULD BE CLEAR about this, so as to avoid unnecessary delay. If you mean to have a vote on your Proposal, clarify that you are making a Proposal; and if you mean for the voting to start immediately without further discussion, either declare a voting order or declare that Factions can vote at will.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 27, 2018, 02:09:03 PM
Valerius nominates Fulvius to preside over the Senate and Cincinnatus to end the insolence of the Aequi.

Edit: Free voting order.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 27, 2018, 02:25:00 PM
Note that Fulvius is in the Plutocrat Faction, and Cinc (as before) is with the Aristocrats. See the snapshots for relevant details. Cinc has immunity to D/S results from the Aequian War.

The Proposal is not exactly for the Consular relationship, which would have to be worked out between the victors afterward; but I.I. is announcing his intentions for afterward.

Since a vote has been called, the Aristocrats start it off with 11 votes for the Proposal. (Aristocrats currently lack the Influence to x2 their knights.) Potentially 61 votes remain against it (including some activist x2 votes.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 27, 2018, 03:53:51 PM
The Progressives vote in favor, we want Cincinnatus to defeat the Aequi before we run into more wars.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 27, 2018, 04:05:13 PM
I will vote for
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 27, 2018, 05:52:45 PM
That adds 13 and 5, and subtracts 13 and 7 potential votes against.

Current totals 29 for, none against, potentially 41 against.

Edited to add: basically if Malize or AzTank vote for, that'll be the win.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 27, 2018, 09:11:36 PM
Conservatives vote "for"
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 27, 2018, 10:51:56 PM
That's enough for the majority. Fulv and Cinc will be Consuls next, Roman and Field respectively (since that was I.I.'s intention, and I know the Frog was fine with Fulv being Roman Consul.)

I'll catch up tomorrow morning with the stats and adjustments. Meanwhile, Fulvius becomes the Presiding Magistrate and so, for the next Mandatory Business, must consider and Propose the new senatorial office of Censor.

The valid senator list (in Rome, previously a Consul, not currently holding office greater than PontMax) is (clockwise from Player One):

Cornelius and Valerius of the Aristocrats;

Acilius and Appius Claudius of the Plutocrats;

Papirius, Furius Camillus, and the PontMax Fabius of the Conservatives.

A quick overview of the Censor office can be found back upthread a little, here: http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=22942.msg634334#msg634334
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 28, 2018, 10:01:58 AM
Catching up this morning: the time of the Tribunal has passed! -- although, the plebs rather liked the reformatory agents which made the law public and simpler to understand (at least as a basis) so that senators couldn't hide behind and exploit the law. From the standpoint of the common people, the main problem was that the Tribunal was still a Council of senators...

Anyway, the Consuls have returned to their normal operation. Cincinnatus becomes Field Consul once again, in preparation for what might be his final campaign, against the Aequians, and in this new Era before the Republic his Influence increases by 4 instead of 3 points, up to 14. (I was mis-remembering what the increase would be in the Italian Era, it's a 1 point increase -- I double checked the rules.) This brings the Aristocratic Faction to 34 total Influence: once again becoming the most Influential Faction and so allowing their (currently 4) knights to each vote twice, once for themselves and once bringing a friend among the 'invisible' senators, on any topic pro or con. For the next vote, at least, I.I. will bring 15 votes instead of 11.

And Fulvius of the Plutocrats also gains 4 Influence as the Roman Consul, up to 10, and bringing the Faction's total influence to 24.


Fulvius (I've already alerted the Frog) must now Propose a senator to become the Republic's first Censor.


Edited to add: I'll be gone for most of the day on combined Mom and Niece birthday celebrations, so I'll check back in tonight.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 28, 2018, 10:21:26 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on October 28, 2018, 10:01:58 AM
Edited to add: I'll be gone for most of the day on combined Mom and Niece birthday celebrations, so I'll check back in tonight.

sounds fun, have a great time!!!
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 28, 2018, 09:18:44 PM
I'm back!

...I sense a distinct lack of the Frog proposing a Censor, though.  :P {checking chat notes} Okay, he was tied up most of the day, too, and wanted to research Censors.

Eyes are too blurry, off to go sleep. Will check in occasionally tomorrow. Censors are a hugely important game change, not least because they can be used to outright kill other senators, so it's a good idea to study them.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on October 28, 2018, 09:34:04 PM
I'm heading back from moms 80th birthday party I should be in better communication by tuesday
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 29, 2018, 07:58:48 PM
Sorry for the delay.  I will propose Apius Claudius for Censor. 

I can't quickly find a list of all the parties, and some of the photos don't have party names, so I will allow voting in any order. 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 29, 2018, 08:35:40 PM
Clockwise from the upper left with Player One:

Aristocrats (purple)
Militarists (red)
Plutocrats (green)
Conservatives (brown)
Populists (orange, go Volunteers!  :D )
Progressives (blue)

Each photo does show the Party (or Faction) name; but in the 'left' (Progressive) and 'right' (Plutocrat / Conservative) photos I have to zoom in at an odd angle to get good details on the cards, so the names can be seen on their ability notecards, not on the big colorful cards (with the Players' names, too).

(...I totally did not plan the Progressives being on the 'left' and the Conservatives being on the 'right' of the board, in case anyone was wondering. ;) )
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 29, 2018, 08:39:03 PM
Appius Claudius, for anyone who might not remember, is a Plutocrat Statesman (and currently the only one, the other two being normal family Senators).

Here's the Plutocrat mat again for reference. The Offices have not been updated yet (nor the personal and total influences), so Val isn't Roman Consul yet, and Acilius is still one of the Tribunal Consuls.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/4909/1CRQvg.jpg)

Notice where the Faction name is shown!
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 29, 2018, 11:05:59 PM
Conservatives vote "for"
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 30, 2018, 08:12:30 AM
All right, let's keep tally of where the vote is:

Plutocrats 9 + 4 knights; plus Conservatives 11 + 3 knights = 27 votes pro.

Tripoli posted in by p-mail, since he was going to be afk (and didn't realize the Frog had specifically called no voting order, so was setting up his vote for when it got around to him).

The Militarists vote con!

Net votes so far are 27 - 9 = 18 votes for. There are potentially 37 against remaining, so the vote is still very much in the air.

However, in effect if Aristocrats or Populists vote 'for', then that will swing the vote solidly into a majority. (If my math is correct. ;) )
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 30, 2018, 05:07:07 PM
Populists vote for.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 30, 2018, 08:23:07 PM
Net +18, + 15 = net 33 votes for, leaving only 22 votes potentially remaining against, and that's the majority.

Plutocrat Statesman Appius Claudius becomes the Republic's first Censor!  <:-) Personal influence goes up +4 from 9 to 13; Faction Influence up to 28.


Appius Claudius now temporarily becomes the Presiding Magistrate -- so the Frog now must choose whether to launch trials against anyone. Appius can bring EITHER one Major OR up to two Minor suspicions to trial. Or investigate no one. (Note that Major suspicions can also be investigated as Minors instead.)

Current targets include everyone who had a major office when the Senate started, and/or with Concessions that have paid off since the end of the prior Senate. Thus:

Valerius of the Aristocrats -- Major and one Minor suspicion.
Cornelius of the Aristocrats -- one Minor suspicion.

Julius of the Militarists -- one Minor suspicion.

Acilius of the Plutocrats -- Major suspicion.

Pontifex Maxiums Fabius of the Conservatives -- Major suspicion.
Papirius of the Conservatives -- Major suspicion.

Aurelius of the Populists -- one Minor suspicion.

Plautius of the Progressives -- two Minor suspicions. (He has two Concessions that triggered.)


Once the Prosecution segment ends (one way or another), all suspicions are removed. They don't stack if unprosecuted.

Be aware that Major Prosecutions are a life-threatening event, and can backfire badly on the Censor and/or his Prosecutor.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 30, 2018, 08:31:34 PM
Once Prosecution has been finished (one way or another), the Presidency will revert back to Fulvius, i.e. the Frog again.

At that point, the Mandatory Business for this Turn will be done.

Useful Other Business will include possibly raising more Legions; possibly disbanding some Legions; and possibly Deploying some Legions with the Field Consul Cincinnatus to go fight the Aequians. (Cinc has to be deployed first, or together with Fulv, and deploying Fulvius at all would be counter-productive in this case.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on November 01, 2018, 08:22:59 PM
A million apologies for the delay.  Work blew up, but the storm is passed now. And I will be more timely. 

I will not prosecute. 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 01, 2018, 09:02:19 PM
The Presiding Magistrate post goes back to Fulvius, which means back to the Frog again.

Now it's time to work up proposals for possibly raising more Legions (or maybe waiting a little while); and/or possibly sending out Cinc to squish the Aequians.


Also, btw, I was gone for 10 hours today myself, so I couldn't check in either.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on November 02, 2018, 04:02:52 PM
Okay, so we have only one war pending.  I have not really sorted out how to evaluate our chances in that war, but Cincinatus is going to go fight it, I assume since he is the other Consul. 

Without calculating odds of success I am thinking to raise one legion, but would like to hear if anyone has a different suggestion.  (What are our odds if we raise no legions? Is that even an option?) 



Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on November 02, 2018, 04:27:15 PM
Found the war rules: 

"1.) Wars don't ever attack Rome directly, including this one (well, not in this game anyway). But they'll cost money each turn they stay active, and if you let them sit around too long they may 'team up' with other Wars of the same 'family' and become that much harder to stop.

2.) This war has a strength equal to 2 Legions (that's the 2 in the lower right corner), plus one more Legion's strength thanks to Tarqy (that's the +1 on his card).

3.) When the time comes to fight the War -- all fighting happens automatically as I roll and do calcs -- you'll be totaling a 3d6 roll, to which you'll subtract the enemy strength and add your Force's strength. You want the total to be 14 or better. If it's 18 or more, then you win with no losses, which is the ideal result.

4.) Every war has a basic strength which it will always have for as long as it's active. Later in the game, some Wars can pick up auxiliary strength which can be whittled away. And sometimes you can manage to randomly kill the Enemy Leader which will permanently remove the bonus strength to his War(s), even if his War continues on.

What this means is that almost always any losses suffered will be the Republic's.

5.) There are five possible results to the combat roll:

5.1.) Defeat, on a total of <=7. In this case any of your surviving Legions will return to the Active Pool, and any surviving senators at the War will return to Rome (specifically to the mats for each Player). However the senator commanding the attack will die. Unrest immediately jumps +2. Depending on the level of Defeat, you may lose x number of units in your Force.

5.2.) Disaster, on a total of the specific black square number for the card, replaced by the black square number on the leader's card. Tarqy scores a disaster if you total a 7. You lose 50% of your Force rounded up, and Unrest jumps +1. But your army (if anything is left) stays in the field.

5.3.) Standoff, on a total of the specific gray square number on the card, replaced by the grey square of the leader. Tarqy scores a Standoff on a total of 14 (which would normally be a victory for you!) You lose 25% of your Force rounded up, but no Unrest, and your army (if anything is left) stays in the field.

5.4.) Stalemate on a total from 8 to 13. Your army stays in the field, and loses x number of units depending on the exact result.

5.5.) Victory on a total of 14 or higher (unless the War or its Leader supersedes that with a Standoff result!) The War discards, and the Leader goes to the Curia, while your surviving Legions and their commanders go home (though they won't arrive home until the Forum Phase next turn). There are some other possible results depending on circumstances (getting to loot spoils, and maybe the Leader permanently discards), and you could still lose x-number of units depending on the exact roll."
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on November 02, 2018, 04:33:02 PM
Found an odds table as well.

http://home.earthlink.net/~gamecorner/ror/tdrchart.html



Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 02, 2018, 04:58:28 PM
Okay, well, you've got 7 Legions already Active. There are potentially 3 more Legions which could be raised from the Force Pool. If you raise one more, you'll have 8 active Legions.

The Republic currently has 107 Talents in its Treasury, and a 40 Talent basic income. So you've got far more than enough cash to safely raise the remaining 3 Legions from the Force Pool -- but you might not need to yet.

Cinc has a Mil skill of 5, so if he brings 7 Legions to stomp the Aequians, he's going to have a 7+5=12-2= 10 point adjustment to the combat dice roll.

I haven't had to show the combat results table in a while, so here it is again for convenience:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/9536/RH5RMB.jpg)

If Cinc brings the current 7 legions, then any roll total from 8 upward will be an absolute victory with no losses to Rome. All other possible results will also be victories, with increasingly unlikely chances of hard losses but nothing more than 4; except for a freakishly minimum chance of a Stalemate with no losses. Cinc voids any Disaster or Standoff roll for this War, so those won't be a worry.

Basically he's going to win, and mostly likely with no losses, even if you don't raise more Legions this turn.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 02, 2018, 05:43:07 PM
Isn't there a chance that we will get an event that will make it difficult to raise more legions?  If so, should be raise extra legions now (the upkeep is only 2talents/turn), rather than risk either losses or the possibility that we couldn't raise additional legions next turn?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on November 02, 2018, 06:25:33 PM
Oh.  Then, I think we don't need any given that the mighty Cincinatus is going to handle the war.  I will give people time to respond, and will call a vote late afternoon tomorrow California time.  The vote will have no order.  I don't think I will have easy access to this web site tomorrow, so would be inclined to call the vote by informing Jason on Google Hangouts, if that's acceptable. 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 02, 2018, 06:58:53 PM
Yes, it's possible to roll a random Manpower Shortage, which adds cost to forming new Legions for a Turn. There's an 11.57% chance of that (due to rolling a total of 12 on a 3d6) multiplied by the chance of rolling a 2d6=7 (which leads to a 3d6 roll for a Random Event) which is 16.67%. Thus you have a 16.67% chance of an 11.57% chance of rolling a Manpower Shortage.

So .1157 * .1667 = 1.929% chance of rolling a Manpower Shortage on each Player's Forum round.

Take the absolute value of 1-minus-that, and you have a 98.7013% of not rolling it on any given Player round. However, the chance of not rolling it on any given turn is that probability times itself 6 times (for 6 players), or that probability to the power of 6.

That comes out to a 92.456(ish ;) ) percent chance of no Manpower shortage on any given Turn. (Or not from that source; you can roll an MS result from bad Popularity, too.)

Note that once you leave the Italian Era, the random event table changes (and for each of the Provincial Eras). I'd have to check whether the chances are better or worse, but that won't happen for a while.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 02, 2018, 07:05:29 PM
So, what are the opportunity costs if bad luck triggers a 7.54% chance of rolling a Manpower Shortage event next Turn?

Legions would, for one Turn, cost 20 Talents to raise instead of 10.

Each additional ManpowShort... let's call that a Gus, for short.  8) Each additional Gus adds another 10 Talents to the cost, but you can see that the odds of rolling more than one Gus each Turn are increasingly small. (Not that the odds themselves change, but it's even-less-likely that you'll roll 2; and even-more-less-likely that you'll roll 3 Gusses; etc.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on November 03, 2018, 08:36:06 AM
There is also the fact that going in with more power subjects us to fewer losses. Let's say we raise no legions and our final modified combat result is 16, we're down 2 legions. Now if we had raised one legion, the result (assuming the same roll) would have been 17, eliminating the legion we raised and leaving us even instead of down by two legions which we'd have to raise again eventually.

I'm in favor of raising at least one legion to eliminate any chance of defeat.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 03, 2018, 09:38:00 AM
Even with no more legions, there's no chance of defeat per se. At worst there's a 1:216 chance of a stalemate (with no losses).

With one more legion, there's no chance of anything but victory, and very little chance of significant losses.

With all three potential Legions raised (which y'all can easily afford right now), there's only a 0.46% chance you win with only two Legions lost, and only a 1.39% chance you lose only one Legion. Everything else is a (98.15% chance of a) no-loss victory.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 03, 2018, 09:39:49 AM
AzTank is away from the computer currently, but posted in phone chat that the Conservatives would vote for 1 more Legion being raised.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on November 03, 2018, 09:51:50 AM
The Aristocrats will support the raising of any number of legions.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 03, 2018, 10:34:34 AM
I'll support one more legion, and am open to two more legions.  I agree that 3 legions is probably overkill
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 03, 2018, 10:56:41 AM
If I receive word from the Frog that he wants to Propose raising 1 Legion (or if he manages to log in wherever he's at and Propose it here), then I see no reason to hold a formal vote on it as there's a clear super-majority in favor of (at least) 1 more.  O0
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 03, 2018, 10:58:31 AM
Provisionally speaking, everyone seems to be okay with sending Cinc out with all available Active Legions this Turn (however many that turns out to be), right? There seems to be a super-majority in favor of this as well -- if so, no reason to hold a formal vote on that either.


Edited to add: basically if the Frog checks in with a Proposal for Raising 1 Legion, and with a Proposal to send out Cinc with all Active Legions, I would consider the informal agreements to reflect a provisional vote on both Proposals, and (since as far as I can tell no more useful Proposals would remain for the Senate this Turn) I'd move along processing the situation through to the Revolutionary Phase, whereupon I'd alert any Players if there are valid Concessions and/or Statesmen to play to your mats.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 03, 2018, 09:59:10 PM
The Frog sent a phone-chat message with instructions: first, Propose raising two Legions.

I'm not entirely sure this counts as an automatic vote win, so I'll count a vote for him. According to his prior instructions, no voting order.

Plutocrats start with 13 votes for Raising 2 Legions; then the Aristocrats since I.I. previously stated he's fine with any number +11 normal vote + 4 more activist knights; the the Militarists since Tripoli said he'd prefer 1 but would vote for two +9 votes. Erax let me know earlier, in case he was afk, that he's in favor of any number of Legions, so that adds 5. Total for = 42

Potentially against are the Populists -15 and the Conservatives -14 -3 more activist votes = -32. Not enough to win, and they might not even vote against it anyway; also there's no advantage to them voting a losing Proposal in this case.

This wins the Proposal, and I happen to know from chat messages (in case not around for a vote) that there are enough votes already to send Cinc out with all Active Legions. So that also passes.

I'll process things tomorrow morning, before I leave for the afternoon, since I'm a bit wiped out tonight -- but I should be able to catch up through the start of the Revolution Phase before I go!
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on November 03, 2018, 10:52:24 PM
It all seems fine and in order, the people would like to see our foolish enemies brought to heel.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 04, 2018, 10:41:01 AM
Okay, let's process this thing!

The Senate Raises the 8th and 9th Legions from the Force Pool to the Active Pool. Republic Treasury down 20 Talents to 87.

Cinc takes all 9 Active Legions off to Prosecute the Aequian War, which moves back to Active from Unprosecuted. The Aristocrats' total Influence and Normal Votes go down by 14 and 3 respectively.

With no other useful Proposals to make, this ends the Senate Phase.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 04, 2018, 10:47:30 AM
TURN FIVE -- COMBAT PHASE
---------------------------------

This is gonna be a slaughter.  :bd:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/1527/6AMCWr.jpg)

Quinctius Cincinnatus leads the 1st through 9th Legions, in what is likely to be his final War, against the Aequian border harassment.

Legions = 9
Cinc's Mil = +5
Aequian Land Strength = -2
Resulting Dice Roll Modifier = +12

Rolling 3d6

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 2, 2, 1, total 5[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 04, 2018, 11:23:03 AM
 :o OUCH! -- the proud Apennines punched back about as hard as they could! That would normally have been a Defeat with 3 Legions lost!

5+12=17 which is a Victory with 1 Legion lost. The dice say the 9th Legion goes back to the Force Pool.

Unrest -1 to 0. The Republic adds 5 Talents of Spoils to its Treasury, up to 94. The territory gained unlocks the final two (5th and 6th) Tax Farming Concessions. The War discards. No Enemy Leader, so no Spolia Opima. The 1st through 8th Legions go back to the Active Pool.

Cincinnatus gains half the land strength, 2/2, = 1 Influence and 1 Popularity, up to 15 and 2. He only lost 1 Legion, so no Pop reduction. One mortality is chit is drawn for the destroyed Legion, and a son of the Fabians (of the Aristocrats) dies serving in the Army, but Cinc survives. Cinc returns to Rome, bumping the Aristocrats total stats back up to 35 Inf and 11 Normal Votes.

This ends the Combat Phase for Turn Five.

I think I'm going to add a house rule for flavor, since it makes a lot of sense, that starting next Turn (not this Turn for balance sake, since I don't have enough records to show back-results from prior Wars), if a Mortality Chit comes up in a War for an active senator (not a family Senator waiting in the Curia to respawn though), that Statesman or family Senator gains 1 Popularity for popular sympathy and support in gratitude that the senator's family has sacrificed, win or lose, to help defend and advance Rome.  O:-)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 04, 2018, 11:41:13 AM
TURN FIVE -- REVOLT PHASE
---------------------------------

(I forgot to mention that everyone lost any Suspicion markers at the end of the Prosecution segment of the Senate Phase, when the Censor declared he didn't suspect anyone of corruption.)

No one can revolt against the Senate yet (not Early Provincial Era).

Faction cards can be traded or donated around with automatic receipt during this Phase. No one needs to reduce their hand size to 5 or less, although of course anyone can simply discard as many of your cards as you want (though I don't recommend that).

I'll pause the game here for assignment of valid Concessions and/or Statesmen, since there is at least one of those in at least one Player's hand! Once the card(s) get(s) played, I'll proceed along to Turn Six (since Mortality and Revenue will be affected).

I've already sent out p-mails to the valid players. If you haven't received a p-mail from me, none of your cards are valid this Turn.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on November 04, 2018, 12:56:58 PM
Tax Farming 5 on Valerius.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 04, 2018, 08:06:09 PM
Tripoli is afk, but sends a chat message that he'll play the final Tax Farming Concession (#6) on Manlius.

I can inform Players that these will be all the Tax Farming Concessions in the game. There are other Concessions, but not for Tax Farming, which assumes local tax incomes from central Italian territories.

(In real life Tax Farming was a big deal much farther away, but the game doesn't feature Tax Farming Concessions in Palestine, for example. The most famous Tax Farmers known all over the world today, were the Apostle Matthew Levi, and Zacchaeus who climbed the fig-sycamore tree to see Jesus. Provincial Governors will have opportunities to skim taxes off their Provinces, at some risk if they're caught of course.  :knuppel2: But that's later in the game.)

I'm a bit pooped out tonight after traveling around, so I'll process the next Phases -- the Mortality and opening Revenue segment of Turn Six -- tomorrow afternoon.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 05, 2018, 08:32:06 AM
While I'm passing by, Erax correctly points out that 107 Talents - 20 + 5 = 92 Talents remaining in the Treasury, not 94. I can't even imagine why some part of my brain insisted I count back up 7 points instead of 5.  #:-)

(He may not be near reliable forum access again until Friday, so he gave me provisional instructions of what to do with his cash during the Revenue and Forum phases upcoming soon.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 05, 2018, 07:17:22 PM
TURN SIX -- MORTALITY PHASE
---------------------------

No Immanent Wars to activate.

Flaminius of the Progressives feels the Kindly Ones brush by him again! -- but they're after someone from family #14, not him, whew. They aren't politically important enough yet to be active.

This ends the Mortality Phase.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 05, 2018, 07:49:36 PM
TURN SIX -- REVENUE PHASE
---------------------------------

Segment one, the Faction income accounting.


I.I.'s Aristocrats: 2 starting cash; +4 senator treasury; +3 +2 senator incomes; +4 knight incomes; +3 Harbor Fees; +2 +2 Tax Farming Concessions =
new Faction total 22 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/1690/wdD5J3.jpg)


Tripoli's Militarists: 15 starting cash; +0 senator treasuries; +3 +1 senator incomes; +4 knight incomes; +2 +2 Tax Farming Concessions =
new Faction total 27 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/3286/rCTs27.jpg)


The Frog's Plutocrats: 5 starting cash; +6 +1 +6 senator treasuries; +5 (Plutocrat bonus) +2 senator incomes; +4 knights x2 Plutocrat bonus knight incomes; +0 Concessions =
new Faction total 33 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/8176/YuMYLk.jpg)


AzTank's Conservatives: 17 starting cash; +1 +3 +3 +3 senator treasuries; +3 +3 senator incomes; +3 knight incomes; + 1d6=3 PontMax income; +0 Concessions =
new Faction total 39 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/1310/vwBJ22.jpg)


Malize's Populists: 0 starting cash; +3 +2 senator treasuries; +3 +1 senator incomes; +2 knight incomes; +3 Mining Concession =
new Faction total 14 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/5199/42OC2y.jpg)


Erax's Progressives: 1 starting cash; +5 +2 senator treasuries; +3 +1 senator incomes; +2 knight incomes; +2 +2 Tax Farming Concessions =
new Faction total 18 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/6913/FFgDdk.jpg)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 05, 2018, 08:03:50 PM
Segment 2, Player distributions.

All Players should now report their distribution choices and whether any of your senators will donate 10 to Rome for a 1 Influence gain. (Some senators may be able to donate 25 for 3 Influence.)

Players should also look ahead to the Forum Phase and make plans accordingly. Remember that one senator can try persuading to add a knight minion, with 5 Talents being automatic win. New family Senators may be expected to start becoming politically active soon, so consider giving decent cash to your senator with the best Ora + Inf total. Unrest doesn't need reducing, but Sponsoring Games will give one of your senators (per Faction) 1, 2, or 3 Popularity for 7, 13, or 18 Talents from personal cash.

According to instructions before he went to spotty internet access for a week, Erax keeps 2, gives 3 to Plautius, and 13 to Flaminius. He does not donate to the Republic.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on November 05, 2018, 08:05:08 PM
8 to Cincinnatus, 4 each to Cornelius and Valerius.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 05, 2018, 08:55:00 PM
15 to Julius, 5 to Manlius, which he uses to buy a knight, and 7 to faction cash
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on November 06, 2018, 12:29:24 AM
11 cash to each.  Fulvius will spend 10 to gain an influence point.
Appius will spend 5 for a Knight.  Do I keep the knights after he dies?

Appius is oldest.  Any way to know when he wil die?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on November 06, 2018, 09:27:44 AM
2 to each of my guys...for a total of 8
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 06, 2018, 09:58:47 AM
Quote from: Ethel the Frog on November 06, 2018, 12:29:24 AM
11 cash to each.  Fulvius will spend 10 to gain an influence point.
Appius will spend 5 for a Knight.  Do I keep the knights after he dies?

Appius is oldest.  Any way to know when he wil die?

Senators die randomly from their chit being pulled from the Death Bag during the Mortality Phase; and also from assassination or conviction of a Major Prosecution (ticcing off other players comes with risks!); and if you send him out to War he has increased chances of dying.

Pre-Early statesmen like Appius will also retire at the start of the Early Era, which will happen sometime during the final 6 cards of the Italian Era.

If he simply dies, then no you don't get to keep any of his chits or cards. You also won't keep his family Senator if you've already got him under Appius: the family goes to the Curia to await respawning into the Forum, where the new family Senator might be persuaded to join any Faction. However, if Appius is your Faction Leader, and if his family is politically active already, then the family will immediately act to get a new scion as their patrician so that they can keep Leadership in your faction. You still won't keep any of Ap's pieces, but the family Senator will bounce back from the Curia immediately to your Faction as the new Faction Leader.

If he retires without his family Senator card under him, then you lose him and all his pieces.

If he retires with his family Senator card under him, then in that one case the new family Senator will inherit his pieces and stay in your Faction. This is true in principal for any pre-Early Statesman.

(Conservative Statesmen, however, will always pass down their pieces if they have their family card supporting them: this is one of the Conservative Faction's special abilities. Conservative family Senators who die however will not keep any pieces, even if the card bounces back immediately for being the Faction Leader -- just like any other family Senator. This has happened already a couple of times to some Players, most notably Erax's Flaminius! -- which is a major reason why his Faction is lagging behind so much. The Kindly Ones took too much of a liking to the Flam boys. ;) )

In any case, Statesmen who die or retire are gone permanently from the game. (This is also true if they're discarded from someone's hand!) The only question is what happens to their family card, if their family is active already.


In ApClaud's case, his family, the Claudians, is already active. In fact you started with the Claudians as one of your first families; and then almost immediately discovered (in effect) that this particular Claudian was "Appius Claudius". So, if he retires at the start of the Early Provincial Era (two or three Turns from now), then yes all his pieces will transfer down to the new family Senator under him -- which will be the only time any of your senators will inherit pieces after a senator leaves the game.

If Appius simply dies, however, from any cause, then he discards and all his pieces do, too. He's the Faction Leader right now, so his family Senator will (in effect) bounce back immediately from the Curia, rather than waiting to respawn and be picked up possibly by some other Player -- so you'll get his family Senator back for sure if he dies, but the new Claudius will be totally clean with the vanilla family stats. He only inherits if Appius retires.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on November 06, 2018, 12:06:16 PM
7 to Aurelius for games in celebration of our recent victory's.
3 to Brutus for a knight attempt

Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 06, 2018, 01:52:45 PM
I guess this leads to the question of the status of Statesmen!  :D

Clockwise from the Plutocrats, whom I've already discussed, but in summary: if Appius retires at the start of the Early Provincial Era, he'll pass his pieces down to the Claudian under him. If he dies before then, the Claudian under him will bounce back due to being Faction Leader, but all pieces will be lost.

Conservatives: if Furius Camilus leaves the game for any reason (thanks to a Conservative special ability), including Early Era retirement, the Furian Senator under him will inherit his pieces. Spurius Cassius however will retire (if he doesn't die sooner) and leave the game permanently, losing all pieces, because he can't possibly have family #24 be active before then.

Populists: Lucius Junius Brutus will pass his pieces down to his family Senator under him if he retires at the start of the Early Era. If he dies before then, the Junian under him will bounce back from the Curia immediately, due to Brutus being the Faction Leader, but all of Brutus' pieces will be lost.

Progressives: no Statesmen.

Aristocrats: currently Cincinnatus will retire without an heir and lose all his pieces. If the Quinctian family becomes politically active before then (roughly a 50/50 chance under current conditions), and Cinc lives to retire at the start of the Early Era, then he'll pass down his pieces to his family Senator. If someone plays the Early Statesman Qunctius Flaminius to start the Early Era, and the Quinctian family is already active under Cinc, then QuincFlam will inherit on top of the family card for the Aristocrats (he's the only Statesman who can inherit from a pre-Early Statesman). If QuincFlam is played to start the Early Era and the Quinctius family hasn't shown up yet, then whoever played him (Aristocrat or otherwise!) will inherit all of Cinc's pieces!

Militarists: Manlius is a special case, because he turned out to be a unique generic Military Leader Statesman. If he lives to retire at the start of the Early Era, then (the new) Manlius will keep almost all his pieces, but will lose the special ability of his Statesman card -- which means his Mil rating will drop back by 2! If Manlius dies before then, his family card will bounce back immediately from the Curia due to being Faction Leader, but all pieces will be lost.


As a reminder, when Concessions are lost, they aren't permanently discarded. They go back to the Forum, either directly or (depending on why they were lost) after spending some random time in the Curia to respawn, where the Senate can vote for them (as Other Business) to be reassigned to a senator.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 06, 2018, 01:56:18 PM
With Malize's distribution, that should end the 2nd segment of the Revenue Phase. I'll process everyone's distributions, and make notes about provisional cash usage during the Forum Phase, and process the 3rd segment (Republic Income) plus start the Forum Phase procession {inhale!} when I get home this afternoon.  O0
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 06, 2018, 05:38:29 PM
Okay, first an adjustment beyond the usual distributions: Fulvius donates 10 Talents (Republic Treasury up from 92 to 102) to gain 1 Influence (up to 11, Plutocrat total up to 29).

Everyone else's distributions have been made and saved on the board, and plans provisionally noted for soon in the Forum Phase.

Segment 3, Republic Income:

Starting cash: 102
Current Income: +40
No Active Wars: -0
No Land Bills: -0
Unit upkeep: 8 Legions (1st thru 8th inclusive) x -2 = -16
= 126 new Republic Treasury total!  :bd: <:-)

This ends the Revenue Phase for Turn 6.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 06, 2018, 05:41:59 PM
TURN 6 -- FORUM PHASE
----------------------------

The only Event remaining in the Forum is the Spolia Opima, which can't discard until a force commander earns a victory over an Enemy Leader.

17 Scenarios remain in the Italian Era.

Fulvius is HRAO, so the rounds start with the Frog rolling...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 4, 4, total 8[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 06, 2018, 06:08:40 PM
Hard 8! -- a nice (though very inefficient) craps payoff, and not a Random Event. ;)

He does however draw a Historical Event:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7418/vtwVVV.jpg)

The Plebian Revolt, originally of 287 BCE. The non-patricians (and even some patricians) appreciated the consolidating of the tangled mess of Roman laws into the publicly available 12 Tables, and also appreciated the adopting of a Censorial office to prosecute Senatorial corruption. But they still complain of being disenfranchised with no proper representation in the Senate -- and the consequent public strikes, refusing to work in the fields for Senatorial landowners, has instantly caused two levels of drought! (The droughts will go away at the start of the next Forum Phase, but the Event will automatically generate another two Droughts each Turn during the Population Phase! -- including this turn, but for effect I plopped them down early. ;) )

No one will bother with the public election of the Senators for many centuries, but the plebians were impressed with the principal that the Consular Tribunes had been elected to act in the best interest of the common people on equal terms with the patrician families of the Senate.

Consequently, the plebians will sort-of hold the Senate hostage each Turn, unless and until the current Presiding Magistrate (during Other Business) successfully Proposes creating the Tribunal system. Historically this was a whole other system of lawmaking somewhat separate from the Senate, and very roughly speaking a distant predecessor to the House of Commons in Britain and the House of Representatives in the United States congress. Each district of Rome was allowed to elect one of three Tribunes (thus their title), eventually to number significantly more, who would act as liaisons between the plebian assembly and the Senate. Tribunes had limited but serious power to affect Senatorial proceedings.

This is going to significantly change the game, sooner or later. I'll talk more about it when we get past Mandatory Business of this Turn's Senate, but the short version is that until the PM convinces the Senate to unlock Tribune functionality, the Republic will suffer at least a Serious Drought (level 2) each Turn -- and the PM will have to sacrifice a little Influence to create the Tribunes. (But he'll pick up a little Popularity in exchange.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 06, 2018, 06:11:40 PM
Meanwhile Appius Claudius spends 5 of his 11 Talents on a 3rd knight, increasing the Plutocrat Vote Tally to 14.

Next up, AzTank's conservatives roll...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 6, 4, total 10[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 06, 2018, 06:26:57 PM
Not a 7, so that's a Scenario draw...

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/5613/MpOhvc.jpg)

Ah, here we go. Pyrrhus wanted to promote himself as one of the Successors to Alexander the Great -- which he had some call for, being directly related to Olympias, Alex's mother, and also being a talented king. Part of his global strategy was to intercede on behalf of some Hellenic city-states in the Italian boot against the Republic's encroachments. Pyr was arguably the greatest general of his generation, and was able to snatch victories from the jaws of defeat -- but such victories still proved too costly for him to continue, thus forever coining the term "Pyrrhic Victory".

Fortunately for the Grogpublic, he died randomly before he could get his War going. So in this particular game, you won't have to deal with him boosting this War.

Unfortunately, the War was still coming and now it's here.

Fortunately, the War can't keep up its logistic supply on your territory, so it will go away after a couple of Turns, even if you do nothing!

Unfortunately, if it goes away on its own, you can't claim its spoils.

Fortunately, the spoils are greater than for any prior War (except against Veia, though that didn't have spoils per se but rather increased Rome's income permanently which was much better)!

Unfortunately, the chance of a Disaster or Standoff is much better, too.

Though fortunately, Pyrrhus isn't around anymore to make those D/S chances even tougher for you!

Unfortunately, you don't have any Statesmen who can void those D/S chances!

Fortunately, the Militarist Faction does have Senators with Mil skills of 6 and 7 (or possibly greater when we get around to Tripoli), so they're capable of maximizing your Legions' effectiveness against this threat.

Unfortunately, the frogurt is cursed. But that's irrelevant for this game.  ^-^

[UPDATED TO CORRECT! -- Erax correctly points out that the text of the card indicates that the War's strength only degrades upon combat, specifically on a combat result of Disaster, Standoff, or Stalemate.]


AzTank didn't provide any provisional instructions, so I've dropped him a note asking whether he wants to spend any cash attempting a knight persuasion and if so for which senator. (You should at least try a free persuasion for one of them if nothing else this round.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 12:39:07 PM
Larry, being aff (away from Forum) just sent a chat message that Fabius will try for a knight using 2 Talents, which I'll process this afternoon -- but I can go ahead and roll the result now!

(He said "Fulvius", but I'm sure he meant "Fabius". I get those two mixed up on occasion, too.  O:-) Fulvius belongs to the Plutocrats.)

(...um, he might have meant Fabius come to think of it. I'll double check, they each have 2 Talents to spend, so it's equal chances either way.)

4 or better will win:

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 6, 3, total 9[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 12:39:39 PM
Wait, sorry, I'm so used to rolling 2d6 I typed that by accident. It should be 1d6.

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 5, total 5[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 12:46:33 PM
That's a win, but I'll have to see who he wants to deduct Talents from to gain the knight. My recommendation is Furius Camillus, since thanks to the Conservative special abilities he will DEFINITELY pass down all his pieces to an inheriting family Senator.

Edited to add: I haven't gotten a clarification on this yet, but it doesn't strictly matter for now. I'm sure he'll let me know before the first vote in the Senate phase. ;) I've left a note on his mat to remind me.

Next up, Malize's Populists roll...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 2, 4, total 6[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 07:22:19 PM
Striking all around that 7 recently! -- but that's a Scenario draw instead.

This turns out to be a red-text Faction card, which he adds as his 3rd card face down. I've sent him a p-mail explaining it.

Per Malize's prior instructions, Brutus spends 3 Talents for a knight attempt, and so needs 3 or more to win...

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 4, total 4[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 07:25:51 PM
...and wins the roll for his second minion.

Aurelius spends 7 cash for level-1 games, adding 1 Popularity for himself and (per a Populist special ability) 1 for his fellow senator Lucius Junius Brutus, up to 2 and 7 respectively.

Between the new knight and 2 new Pop points (per another Populist special ability), this adds another 3 normal votes), up to 18!


Erax's Progressives now roll for an Event or Scenario...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 6, 6, total 12[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 07:40:42 PM
Boxcars! -- but not an Event, so it's a Scenario.

Well well well!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/3484/p6Pct9.jpg)

The Second Latin War has arrived. While not as powerful as the Pyrrhic War, it offers a lot better rewards, since beating it will convince Rome to incorporate the area more fully into the Empi--I MEAN REPUBLIC!  :D --- adding three more Legions of potential manpower to the Force Pool, and permanently increasing the Republic's normal income by another 10 Talents!

You may also notice the text along the bottom of the card, which talks about "Matching Wars". This is the first Matching War you've drawn. When Matching Wars go Active (including Unprosecuted), they multiply each other's basic strength!

Fortunately, you long since dealt with the 1st Latin War, so this would only be a problem if you were reeaallly lax (or unlucky) about dealing with it. ;)

Also fortunately, the card has been misprinted, which I never got around to remembering to edit out: the scenario designer never included a 3rd Latin War, so you won't have to worry about ever dealing with a set of these Wars.

Still, you might as well learn about them now, while it's still safe to do so. Matching Wars are almost certainly going to be a problem down the line.

Consequently, this War is nothing but good news for the Republic, as it will give you a fairly safe and profitable expedition if y'all use some common sense.  O:-)

Meanwhile, Plautius will spend 1 of his 3 Talents on a knight persuasion attempt. He'll win on a 5 or 6...

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 4, total 4[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 07:44:15 PM
Ack, a 4, close but no canoli.

The other cash was reserved in case a new family Senator showed up in the pool by now, which hasn't happened yet, and I haven't received other instructions, so as far as I know this ends Erax's round.


I.I.'s Aristocrats roll for an Event or Scenario...

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 2, total 2[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 08:05:04 PM
Argh, wait, sorry, that should have been a 2d6...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 1, 5, total 6[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 08:07:58 PM
Phew, still not a Random Event, which is good because I already sent I.I. a p-mail explaining that he drew a Faction card and which one. ;)

I don't have instructions from I.I. about whether he wants to change his Faction Leader and/or which senator he wants to try for a knight (nor how much he wants to sacrifice doing so).

Theoretically, Quinctius Cincinnatus could pay 7 Talents for some Level-1 games, but he'd only gain 1 Popularity for doing so, and since his family isn't politically active yet (and might not be before the Early Provincial Era) that could end up being not very helpful for the expense in the medium run when Cinc retires a couple of Turns from now.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on November 07, 2018, 08:09:07 PM
I'll drop all of Cornelius' cash on a knight roll.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 08:10:35 PM
That's 4 cash, so only a 1 will lose...

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 2, total 2[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 08:14:11 PM
Yeek! -- irony, that was also my misrolled number earlier! But a win this time.  O:-)

Corny goes up to 3 knights, and the Aristocrats' normal votes go up to 12.


This brings us to Tripoli, whose Militarists roll...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 5, 5, total 10[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 08:33:23 PM
...the non-crappy streak continues with the final Scenario for this Turn, leaving 11 in the Italian Era deck.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/3036/SOZXUX.jpg)

And welcome at last to the first Senator of the next major patrician family to go active, Aelius!

He isn't exactly "militarist" material, but Tripoli already has a strong stable (who won't be hurt much by the coming pre-Early Statesman retirement), and Aelius' four votes from Oratory will be surely welcome anywhere. Moreover, arriving at the end of the Phase, only Tripoli will have a chance this Turn to persuade him to join! (Which must be grating indeed for poor Erax...  :'( )

Those chances aren't bad either. Julius has 4 Influence + 3 Ora + 15 cash he could bribe with, which would be somewhat overkill as Aelius' loyalty is only 7 and he (currently!) has no cash to be independent with, nor the extra 7 points of security from already being aligned to a Faction.

That means, before possible counter-bribes, Julius would need to roll 15 or less on a 2d6 to win!

Except, the no-certainty rule for persuading senators means that a roll of 10, 11, or 12, will automatically fail regardless.

However, Tripoli might still add all 15 cash to the bribe in order to act as a buffer against other Factions attempting to counter-bribe down the win threshold, since if he wins he'll get all the bribery cash back under his control anyway.

However again! -- all other Players will get one shot at counter-bribing, from their Faction cash, which Tripoli cannot legally further-bribe from (only from Julius' personal cash). And while the Frog has no Faction cash, everyone else has enough cash to put a hard scotch on any persuasion attempts from Tripoli, not even counting the Conservatives who have THIRTY-ONE TALENTONS OF SILVER in Faction cash reserves!  :o

On yet another tentacle! -- scotching a persuasion attempt with counter-bribery can be self-defeating in the long run, since the bribed senator will just be that much more difficult to persuade to join anyone (one point per talent in his personal treasury).

Then again again again! -- AzTank has so much cash that he might be able to finagle a successful counter-bribe parry now, while still reserving enough cash to feasibly try to get Aelius himself with one of his own senators next Turn.

Things could get quite squirrely here...
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 08:42:56 PM
While we're waiting for Tripoli to make a choice on this, he already noted that he would spend all 5 of Manlius' cash on another automatic knight, increasing Manny's minions to 3, his Mil skill to an even-more-manly 8  :notworthy: , and the Faction's vote tally to 10.

Worth noting that when the current Manlius retires (or if he lives to retirement, to be more precise), the new Manly Senator will get to keep all his pieces, meaning that while he'll lose the 2 extra Military skill from being the generic Military Statesman he'll still have a proper Headquarters of 6. (Or whatever bonus from another knight or two he picks up before then!)

Meanwhile, I'll drop Tripoli a line pointing back here to his Persuasion opportunity (or risk, to be more precise).

If anyone wants to provisionally declare how much of their Faction cash they'll blow on counter-bribing, if Tripoli orders Julius to go for it, that could prove politically informative.  :coolsmiley:
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 07, 2018, 09:41:49 PM
Jason. I'm working off an iPhone 7 right now. I replied to your PM, but am uncertain if my reply went out. Did you receive it?   
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 10:44:51 PM
Yep, just checked back in a minute ago!

So, here's the deal: Tripoli is going for it.

But before anyone gets too trigger happy with counter-bribing, you should be aware that he's taking the opportunity to throw a Seduction card on Aelius!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/9800/wtPGTM.jpg)

Saucy minx, isn't she? Trip has been fondling this card since Turn Zero, and itching to play it!!

:D

This essentially means none of you can counter-bribe his attempt.

It also means there's no point in Julius spending more than 9 of his 15 Talents on the bribe: his Inf + Ora exactly matches Ael's Loyalty (7 each), and any natural roll of 10 or above is an automatic loss anyway. So 9 Talents will get Julius the maximum possible chance to win, a little more than 83% if I recall correctly.

2d6, 9 or below wins!

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 3, 6, total 9[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 10:46:38 PM
She needed every talent!  :coolsmiley:

I'll make adjustments soon. This ends the Forum Phase in effect. I'll do Pop Phase tomorrow afternoon and set up the Senate Phase for this turn.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 11:11:10 PM
As some quick considerations to be making preliminary plans about in the coming Senate (starting Thursday afternoon):

Mandatory Business:

Proposing two new Consuls (with an eye toward whether one or both of them will be going out to the Wars);

(Ya'll don't have enough War threat yet to unlock Dictator and Master of Horse offices.)

Proposing a Censor (possibly still the current one -- I'll need to double-check the rule on that to be sure I've understood correctly that Censors can be directly re-elected);

Prosecution(s) if any.


Other Business (not necessarily in this order):

Time to unlock Tribunes?

Land Bills (depending on Unrest factors)?

Raising the 9th and perhaps 10th Legions?

Sending one or both Consuls to War(s), and if so then with how many Legions?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on November 08, 2018, 03:33:31 PM
Hello guys, I got access today and expect to be fully active tomorrow. I believe the Pyrrhan War has to be actively fought for it to lose strength, it won't wind down by itself if left unprosecuted.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 08, 2018, 03:46:18 PM
Erax, upon examination, is totally correct, and I have updated the post introducing that war accordingly.

(Worse, I remember making a note to mention this condition along the way, and then apparently a neuron zigged instead of zagged...  :buck2: )
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on April 26, 2012, 07:47:07 AM
If only we had a general who could lead forces sufficient to successfully prosecute a strength 7 war...... ;)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 08, 2018, 07:34:38 PM
Hee hee hee...

Note that the Groghead forum engine has been experiencing some goofy timing problems today, so Tripoli isn't really posting from back in late April 2012. ;)

My apologies for the delay -- got laid out by a short-term stomach bug of some kind this afternoon, but I'm back in action. Let's get the Senate going!


TURN SIX -- POPULATION PHASE
----------------------------

All senators with Major office get a Major suspicion marker.

No cards currently waiting in the Curia.

No Unprosecuted Wars to affect Unrest. But the Plebian Revolt has generated two ongoing Drought Effects, which each add +1 to Unrest, up to 2.

The current HRAO is Fulvius of the Plutocrats, who has a Popularity of nothing (0, totally neutral). So his State of the Republic speech will be 3d6 -2 Unrest.

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 5, 2, 5, total 12[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 08, 2018, 07:37:03 PM
12 - 2 unrest = 10, which on the chart adds +1 Unrest, up to 3.

With that, the Senate officially starts. I'll be taking snapshots of everyone's current mat and posting those in a few minutes, along with some commentary about the State of the Republic.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 08, 2018, 07:47:17 PM
Here are the current Events active in the Forum, and the two existent (and Active) Wars:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/4519/8rlDCy.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/3419/OjssqV.jpg)


The Republic currently fields 8 Active Legions (the 1st thru 8th inclusive), with another two possible Legions (9th and 10th) in the Force Pool.

There are 126 Talents in the Republic's Treasury, with a current normal income of 40 per Turn. The currently Active Legions will cost 16 Talents next Turn (if they still survive). The currently Active Wars will cost 10 Talents each next turn.

Unrest, just as a reminder, is currently +3 (after the most recent State of the Republic address).

Next I'll compile the Player mats.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 08, 2018, 08:57:47 PM
It took me some thought to gauge a 2nd place Faction right now, but ultimately I lean toward I.I.'s Aristocrats. His totals of cash, influence, and voting power, simply outscore the Plutocrats; his luck at gaining financial Concessions keeps him able to spend cash as he likes while still rivaling the Plutocrats; and having at last pulled ahead solidly in the Influence Totals his increasing number of knights can now bring double voting power to bear on any topic, pro or con -- arguably the best activist advantage in the game, and one that the Plutocrats will always lack (having no voting activist abilities at all).

This does remind me, by the way, that Cinc's recent Influence gain (after being elected Field Consul again, and winning the Aequian War) should have generated two extra influence points to be spent on one of his other senators.

For that matter, Cornelius donated 10 Talents to Rome's Treasury last Turn (Turn 5), which should have generated another extra Influence point to be spent somewhere other than Corny.

Yeesh, going back to check farther, Valerius being elected one of the Consular tribunes should have generated another point, too! Man, I am suckinnngggg at keeping track of the Aristocrats' Influence farming, sorry! (Fortunately this faultiness on my part has not affected the game yet.)

I.I., let me know where those four extra Influence points should be!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/4102/scaSiD.jpg)



Tripoli's Militarists probably rank 5th among Factions this Turn, but that could start changing again soon, and sharply. The least powerful of the original four Factions -- partly due to a spate of unlucky rolls, and partly due to the other three original factions conspiring with each other (and possibly against him) -- the Militarists have recently scored a 3rd senator at last with much-needed voting power, and his careful conservation of income has given him some latent strength at taking advantage of opportunities. With stronger Wars coming over the horizon, his fellow Factions may start turning to him soon; or they may need rescuing before they'll give him his extra bonuses from military victories! His two Tax Farming Concessions are helping keep him afloat meanwhile as he quietly trains for mega-campaigning.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/4806/pz1l2Q.jpg)



The Frog's Plutocrats are lingering in 3rd place, both generally among the Factions and among the majority voting block (so far), but ironically this is due to bad luck in not being able to snap up any Concessions yet! (And a few bad luck rolls elsewhere.) His cash generation abilities offset his lack of other kinds of special abilities, as demonstrated by him giving a ludicrous total of 11 Talents to each of his senators during distributions this Turn! His voting and total Influence tallies are nothing to sneeze at, and his political capabilities can be judged by him having successfully Proposed one of his own senators as Rome's first Censor last Turn! -- a dangerous concentration of power in a Faction which usually manages to produce one of the Consuls each Turn, including last Turn! Whether his Censor can score an election two Turns in a row remains to be seen...

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/6614/5vrykG.jpg)



Currently the indisputably most powerful Faction in the Republic, AzTank's Conservatives show no signs of weakness. With an economy to rival the Plutocrats (currently), the Pontifex Maximus for life, successful senators pushing a total Influence that has up until recently kept the Aristocrats from activist voting, a respectable voting total, and no less than four senators in his Faction (partly thanks to the Conservatives' unique starting bonus), it's hard to see AzTank's star descending any time soon. His activist knights will lend strength toward keeping other Factions from gaining power, if he so chooses; and his permanent capability of Statesman inheritance could keep his gains in play longer than other Factions during the long game, even as his initial advantage fades to less importance over time. His only main weakness currently, is his own success, making him a potential target of competition if the Factions start putting their own power ahead of the safety of the Republic.

Heck, he's so powerful that he hasn't even bothered to clarify yet where I should put his most recently persuaded knight! :D (Being away from his computer, he thought Fulvius was one of his own senators, an understandable mistake; personally I recommend the knight should go to Furius Camillus, who will safely conserve it for inheritance one way or another.)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/462/kVycFy.jpg)



Malize's Populists have spiked into 4th place recently, now leading the three minority Factions, and competently leveraging his special Faction abilities into the new strongest single voting block in the Senate! -- even a touch stronger than the activist knight support for the Aristocrats! The majority three Factions must either lockstep even tighter to keep their reins on senatorial authority, or alternately the stronger Factions may start looking to compete against each other by courting the increasingly powerful swing votes, among which the Populists take precedence. There is no reason to expect the Populists to slow their rise to power, as long as Malize's play stays careful (helped by his lucrative local Mining rights); but with only two senators (as he suffered back during the Barbarian Sack of Rome) Malize still lacks any buffering against random disaster -- or possibly intentional sabotage. On the other hand, Malize overtly sports no less than three unplayed Faction cards, much like his minority ally the Progressives, which suggests more potential surging on the way.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/8342/tmiY1u.jpg)



Erax's Progressives are necessarily in last place, for obvious reasons. Aside from being naturally hampered by late entry, he has also been haunted by bad luck rolls, most destructively the untimely deaths of two Flaminian senators. This has kept his total influence and voting power low, although with his increasing number of knights and a possibly cooperative oppositional base among other Factions, he could start racking up Influence by voting against senatorial gains or for senatorial harm (or for emergency Land Bills if those become necessary soon). Recently he netted two local Tax Farming territories, which will help his struggling Faction economy, too.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7044/OUSnCN.jpg)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on April 26, 2012, 09:40:32 AM
Three to Cornelius, one to Valerius.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 08, 2018, 09:50:34 PM
Will do (tomorrow afternoon)!

It's time for the Frog to consider Proposing the next two Consuls. If one is an Aristocrat, I'll try reaaaalllly hard to remember to add an extra point of Influence this time.  :-[ (Though if I.I. manages to remember for me, I won't complain!  O:-) )
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on April 26, 2012, 10:43:27 AM
Before we nominate candidates, I think we should consider whether we'll focus on one war or try to knock out both at the same time. With a potential maximum strength of 20 (including MIL bonuses) and a very healthy treasury, we should have a reasonably chance of success with the latter.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 08, 2018, 10:48:30 PM
I certainly have opinions and recommendations about this, but while I don't think I should say what they are (as the neutral ump) I do agree on a procedural ground with this advice.  O0 (I mean that y'all should consider what to do about the Wars before deciding who should be Consuls.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on November 09, 2018, 02:17:15 AM
Assuming the majority bloc continues electing its 5-mil senators, I suggest sending 5 legions against each war. This practically guarantees a stalemate or better vs the pyrrhans, which will weaken them, and gives us good odds vs the latins as well.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 09, 2018, 08:55:19 AM
I'd want to double check the odds, but I recall that the Pyrrhic War has by far the most dangerous chances of a D/S result in the pre-Early Eras. I can't recall (being at the office) if it's 25ish percent with Pyrrhus, or if it would have been even worse with him, but it's a serious number.

Someone who bookmarked the percentage spread (I did but not at the office, duh ;) ), might want to look into that. A total of 7 gets a Disaster, and 16 gets a Standoff, on a 3d6.

The point is that if y'all send enough Legion power to curbstomp that war, you're consequently risking a decent chance of a straight percentage loss of those same Legions instead. Which is going to be true in any case, but the scenario designer subtly designed that war to feel safer picking at it with acceptable loss risks until it goes away.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on November 09, 2018, 09:52:08 AM
D/S results are determined before modifications, ie they're the dice roll before we add legions, subtract the war strength, and so on.

Pyrrhan War
D on a 07: 6.9%.  S on a 16: 2.8%.
Stalemate+ with 5 Legions + 5 Mil requires a 5+ on 3d6, which gives us a 98% chance.
Victory requires an 11+, which is a 50% chance, or 47% discounting a Standoff on a 16.

2nd Latin War
D on a 04: 1.4%.  S on an 18: 0.5%.
Victory with 5 Legions + 5 Mil requires an 8+, which is an 84% chance, or 83% discounting a Standoff on an 18.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 09, 2018, 09:59:19 AM
I recommend the curb stomping approach, with the Pyrrhan war being the first target, and holding the line on the 2nd Latin war.  Any losses suffered would still leave enough forces to finish off the Latin War next turn, minimizing the need to raise a significant number of legions.  Because of the +3 unrest, we need to end one of the wars this turn.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 09, 2018, 10:06:25 AM
Hrm. Note to myself to check again with the scenario designer's BotR rules this afternoon, because I must be badly mis-remembering his chart for D/S combined percentage results (with and without Enemy leaders) for his prequel wars. Or he badly miscalculated.

Well, this is why I asked for someone to check the actual percentage spreads. A combined 10ish percent risk of an automatic D/S result is much better than a combined 25ish percent!


On the Unrest factor, keep in mind that the minimum unrest during Pop Phase State of Republic speeches, is going to be 2 in any case, until and unless the Senate votes to start allowing the Plebian Council and (more importantly for gameplay purposes) its Tribunes to exist.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 09, 2018, 10:11:03 AM
Any consideration of Erax's very handy stat results, and the question of curbstomping one war now (it isn't quite possible to curbstomp both wars right now although a victory in both wars at once is far from impossible) should also keep in mind opportunity gains for knocking out one or the other war.

In other words, if y'all vote to go after one war now instead of the other, with enough Legion power to crushingly win with minimal chance of losses, what are you gaining either way now compared with what you'll be gaining next turn either way?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on April 27, 2012, 03:01:10 AM
I am thinking to nominate Cornelius and Flaminius.  In connection with that nomination I would want the following commitments: (1) that we commit to two wars next turn (2) that one of my guys be censor.  In addition, I would agree not to prosecute the Progressives or the Aristocrats this turn as censor.  I would send you guys private messages, but the interface on Grogheads is too much of a pain in the neck.

So, I am not making these nominations yet, but asking you guys if you agree.  Also, my gmail is dmakman@gmail.com

So, if anyone wants to talk privately, It would be ideal to open up a gmail hangout so that we have a channel. 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on April 27, 2012, 04:20:12 AM
Totally in favor!
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on April 27, 2012, 06:04:12 AM
The PM system seems to be TANGO UNIFORM.  For communications purposes, can we shift to email?  My email address is SteveLohr@aol.com.  If others could post their email addresses, that would be great.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 09, 2018, 07:44:20 PM
While I'm catching up on developments since my last check-in this afternoon, I checked the scenario designer's odds table for his pre-Early Wars.

I was remembering the Pyrrhic War with Pyrrhus, who boosts the D/S chances to 25.9% combined. Without Pyr, as in our game's run of the dice, the D/S results drop to the 9.7% Erax provided stats for.

The other dangerous D/S chances was for the Veientine War at 23.2%, if Camillus wasn't fighting it -- though in our game, he did.

What I was inadvertently mis-remembering was the chance for the Veientine War as though it was the chance for the Pyrrhic War without Pyr.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 09, 2018, 08:06:44 PM
I have also confirmed, checking the rules again so far as I can find, that a senator can be elected Censor any number of times in a row, so long as he's otherwise still valid -- and so long as other senators can be persuaded to keep electing him!  ^-^

Current Censors can be elected to higher offices (Consul, or Dictator if that emergency post becomes unlocked), but of course then someone else must be elected Censor at the first opportunity.

For practical purposes this Turn, this means Appius Claudius of the Plutocrats can be elected Censor again, or can be elected to one of the Consular posts (since he wasn't a Consul last Turn).
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 09, 2018, 09:32:58 PM
As an administrative note, the forum will be migrating to a new platform over the next 24 hours, so we should consider not posting anything else officially about the game, by p-mail or in the game thread until Saturday night.

Some of you may also get two messages about this by p-mail, since I just realized I didn't include some players in my blast list.  :-[
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on November 10, 2018, 11:24:28 AM
Does a Censor keep his office until the next Censor election, or just until prosecutions are done?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 28, 2012, 01:07:28 AM
Quote from: Erax on November 10, 2018, 11:24:28 AM
Does a Censor keep his office until the next Censor election, or just until prosecutions are done?

Yes, Censors are still Censor after the prosecutions. This becomes important if both Consuls (and possibly the Dictator, not to mention Master of Horse) are sent to lead armies to War. The Censor, being necessarily a Prior Consul (one of the qualifications of validity), gets to be HRAO.

Also, assassinations can still happen after the prosecution segment (and before the Censor's re/election on the following Turn), and investigating suspicion of the assassin's Faction Leader (if the assassin is caught) is still a Censor's job.

The Censor temporarily gets to be Presiding Magistrate during a normal or (for assassination) special prosecution segment, and hands that back to the HRAO afterward (unless somehow the Censor is in fact the HRAO, which could happen for an incoming Senate Phase with a caught assassin before the Censor as HRAO has succeeded in Proposing the two new Consuls.) But the Censor remains the Censor, whether PM or not, until the next election.

Since you mention it, though, who else doesn't keep their post after a prosecution is finished, are the Prosecutor and the Advocate. The Censor (in the modern expanded rules) must appoint a (willing) senator as Prosecutor, the idea being that the Censor acts as judge with the other senator as what came to be known later as the "judge advocate". The accused senator can then choose a (defense) Advocate to help him, or he can choose to be his own Advocate. This all affects various stat combinations that go into rolling for the outcomes. There will always be a Senate Vote for or against conviction, however, which also gets added to generate the final outcome, so the players get to actively contribute to the trial.


EDITED TO ADD: CLICK HERE TO BYPASS FURTHER FORUM-GLITCH DISCUSSION AND JUMP TO THE NEXT GAME POSTS! (http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=22942.msg635663#msg635663)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on April 29, 2012, 01:09:17 AM
So are the forums stable again?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 29, 2012, 03:15:07 AM
Unclear. They weren't yesterday afternoon!

Edited to add: Or, checking, last night after 8pm my time (when I was hoping things would be better)!
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 11, 2018, 03:51:31 PM
Quote from: malize on April 29, 2012, 01:09:17 AM
So are the forums stable again?

Given your post is dated April of 2012, I would say "no"   ;)  However, you are doing a wonderful impression of Marty McFly!
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 11, 2018, 04:01:44 PM
Huh. What's even weirder, is I didn't notice that that particular post was misdated. Nor Malize's when he asked me!

This post lists today (11/11) at 3:01 Central US Standard.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 29, 2012, 06:46:32 AM
Four posts on the forum today since my last one; they're all dated correctly, but the experimental sample size may be too small to bet safely yet.

Five posts now counting this one, dated at 11/11/18, 5:30pm Central Standard US time.

I still kind of recommend waiting until tomorrow afternoon again.

I will say that I haven't seen evidence of actual forum posts being lost. Only a little evidence of p-mails being lost (and maybe they were just back-sorted according to the dating bug, I don't know.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on April 29, 2012, 07:51:40 AM
Jason-I'll send you a test PM in a minute.  See if you receive it
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on April 29, 2012, 07:53:27 AM
Well, I can't speak for the forum, but the PM system is still messed up.  It won't let me send any messages.  I get the message "You have exceeded the limit of 20 personal messages per hour."  However, I haven't received any messages for almost 2 days.  Of note, the timestamp on the mails is still off.  I sent this email at 6:35 PM CST, and it is stamped 6:53 AM
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 11, 2018, 10:43:48 PM
That was happening to me, too, back when I was p-mailing.

Also, your date for posting was 2012.

My date was 11/11/18, 9:43 or :44 Central US standard. (I'm mentioning this now with every post, because I have some minor evidence that the dates are retroactively resetting, too, and I'm testing to see if I can catch it.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on November 11, 2018, 11:03:53 PM
Quote from: Tripoli on November 11, 2018, 03:51:31 PM
Quote from: malize on April 29, 2012, 01:09:17 AM
So are the forums stable again?

Given your post is dated April of 2012, I would say "no"   ;)  However, you are doing a wonderful impression of Marty McFly!

Just me, my Delorean, and the flux capacitor...
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on April 29, 2012, 08:41:49 PM
Jason-For what it's worth, I received your test PM from last night when I logged on this morning.  However, the website won't let me PM a response, as it incorrectly believes I have sent  20f PMs in the past hour.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 29, 2012, 08:46:36 PM
Noted. Have you manually logged out and then back in?

I did that for my Surface Pro 3 (Win 8.1) this morning, and I noticed that the system occasionally thinks I still need to log in again.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 12, 2018, 02:43:33 PM
Okay, dangit, I forgot to timestamp my last post after making it, so I could do a comparison!!

I see it has gone to April 29, 2012. I can't honestly recall whether I'm sure it read this morning's time this morning.

Well, this proves decisively that manually logging out and logging back in doesn't reset the synch...

Edited to add: this post is the correct time and date, about 1:43 Central US standard, Nov 12, 2018.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 12, 2018, 05:02:05 PM
Test post.  Being sent at 4:01 PM CST on 12 November
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 12, 2018, 05:08:42 PM
I just sent a test PM to everyone.  Let me know if you got it.  I got a copy I sent to myself, so the PM system may be working
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 12, 2018, 06:10:37 PM
I replied-to-all on the p-m, that I did get the message.

Also your two posts at 4:02 and 4:08pm (my local time, Nov 12, 2018), came through properly stamped.

Edited to add: as did this post at 5:10pm local time.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 12, 2018, 08:32:43 PM
It looks like the forum and pm system may be up then. Did everyone else receive my PM?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 12, 2018, 08:45:50 PM
I'm pretty sure some of my posts were backstamped after you did the p-mail. I haven't seen any new problems in a few hours, yet.

Note: this post was correctly stamped Nov 12th, 2018, 7:46ish pm, CST.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 12, 2018, 08:51:02 PM
On the other hand, there are still some definite oddities. The Front Page feed for the forum index page is gone; as are our avatars. And I think the secondary ad banner is gone.

None of these are necessarily signs that problems are continuing, though; they might be attempts at localizing a problem. (The new ad banner, mostly for Amazon in my experience, seemed to go active around the time the desynchs started happening. But that might be coincidence, or I might have the timing off.)

Anyway, once things seem safe to continue, I'll not only try a p-mail blast to alert people, but I'll also add a link to the 'plot' continuance, on one of the earlier posts when we temporarily suspended Senate operations. ;)


(Edited to add, this post was also stamped correctly.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 16, 2018, 07:18:09 PM
Sending out a test message on the newly reactivated forum, for anyone who set their account to automatically subscribe to the thread sending alerts to some email (or who manually subscribed perhaps).

Speaking of, you should all probably p-mail me a safe email address at once, in case the forum tanks again while they're still working things out. Or if you don't have my email, it's my first and last name, no spaces, at compuserve.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on November 16, 2018, 09:06:37 PM
I got the test message. When do we start up again?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 16, 2018, 09:41:25 PM
Probably Sunday. I'm going to hash up a position summary for convenience, Saturday afternoon, so everyone knows where we left off.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 17, 2018, 08:33:03 AM
The site went down temporarily again last night (or was accidentally set up to discourage spammers by restricting access rates, or something): "The website is temporarily unable to service your request as it exceeded resource limit. Please try again later."

But as of 2 hours ago it's back up again, obviously. ;)

Still, this is why I continue to recommend patience until the admins polish up their stressful work.  O0 We'll get back to it when the forum is stable again.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on November 17, 2018, 01:36:34 PM
standing by
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 17, 2018, 05:50:43 PM
Forum is still a little unstable, so I recommend making sure you copy-all on any texts before posting; and then check carefully to make sure they arrived.

Also, we should be careful not to rush too far ahead since some members may be temporarily blipped out and unable to access the forum to weigh in on matters. (This is aside from usual travel and real-life delays.)

I'll start posting a position recap soon.

I sent test p-mails to everyone last night, but I've only heard back from Tripoli by that method. Did everyone else receive them?!
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 17, 2018, 05:54:16 PM
Okay, you may click on this link to go back to the position recaps at the start of the Senate Phase this turn: http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=22942.msg635286#msg635286

I'll soon add an update linking back here for Players to jump quickly past the Groghead-forum glitch discussions. It'll be reaaaly big and purple, impossible to miss, don't worry. (There's a bit of glitch discussion mixed with game discussion at first, so I made sure to include it.)

The Frog was in the process of considering which two senators to Propose as the next Consuls this Turn.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 17, 2018, 10:12:12 PM
Bumping the thread a little to clarify that I'm activating the game again as of tonight.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 18, 2018, 03:18:24 PM
In case anyone is wondering, game activity is occurring, just by various chat methods, not official actions yet.  O:-)

I anticipate official actions soon, possibly passed on through me via those chat methods, since Players can't always be where they can access the game forum.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 18, 2018, 07:43:16 PM
I would like to propose the following for consideration:  Claudius for Consul, Manlius of the Militarist for Consul to prosecute the  pyrric war,and Fulvius for Censor this turn, with the condition that neither the The Plutocrats, The Militarists or the Progressive be prosecuted this turn.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 18, 2018, 07:50:37 PM
^^ Note that this is not an official "Proposal" (which he can't do, as Tripoli doesn't control the HRAO).

He's actually trying to propose a Public Contract between the Players involved. If they all agree, then I'll be able to prevent them from willingly breaking the contract. (Contracts can still be broken by accident in various ways, which then gives Players 'downstream' within the Contract permission to step out of fulfilling their parts.)

(It's also possible for other players to join the contract, even if they have nothing specifically to do with it. So for example, Malize's Populists have no senators involved in the contract, and his senators would still be exposed to possible prosecution by the Frog's Fulvius. However, he might still join the Contract as a way of stating that his votes would be counted automatically in favor of Proposals fulfilling the Contract, as far as it goes.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on November 18, 2018, 07:51:51 PM
Quote from: Tripoli on November 18, 2018, 07:43:16 PM
I would like to propose the following for consideration:  Claudius for Consul, Manlius of the Militarist for Consul to prosecute the  pyrric war,and Fulvius for Censor this turn, with the condition that neither the The Plutocrats, The Militarists or the Progressive be prosecuted this turn.

With Populist immunity, agreed
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 18, 2018, 07:59:10 PM
Quote from: malize on November 18, 2018, 07:51:51 PM
Quote from: Tripoli on November 18, 2018, 07:43:16 PM
I would like to propose the following for consideration:  Claudius for Consul, Manlius of the Militarist for Consul to prosecute the  pyrric war,and Fulvius for Censor this turn, with the condition that neither the The Plutocrats, The Militarists or the Progressive be prosecuted this turn.

With Populist immunity, agreed

Note that the other Players can still enter the Contract regardless of whether this condition is met. But if the Frog grants the provisional exemption from prosecution, then Malize would be contracted to vote for the relevant Proposals, and I would automatically process those votes as the Proposals come up. (The Frog's assent to the Contract would also set up automatic Proposals for me to process, once all stated parties ratify it.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 18, 2018, 08:06:26 PM
Also note that if any Player accepting the original Contract proposal agrees to include Malize's provision, then Tripoli (and anyone else relevantly involved who has already agreed to the original Contract proposal) must clarify whether or not he agrees with the provision.

If not, then the original Contract either stands without the provision, or else the Contract may be dead in the water if the relevant parties (being Contracted to act accordingly) cannot agree on whether to include Malize's provision for Fulvius not to act against the Populist senators.


(It's kind of like setting up a program in Fortran. ;) Unless the whole thing is valid, it won't even run.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 19, 2018, 09:35:31 AM
The Frog sent a chat note (last night just after midnight my time) that he accepts both the original Contract proposal and also Malize's condition for joining the Contract.

Tripoli (who runs Manlius), is really the only other person who needs to verify in, since his proposed Contract only involves senators from the Plutocrats and the Militarists. Tripoli already automatically agreed with the original Contract (having proposed it), but should technically agree or disagree with the provision for the Frog not to prosecute the Populists this Turn (if Fulvius gets elected Censor of course).

All three Players (if Tripoli agrees with Malize's provision to join the Contract) would be then bound to automatically vote in favor of the planned Proposals, and I'd process those votes automatically. (Or for only Tripoli and the Frog if Trip doesn't agree to Malize's provision.)


Any of the other three Players can agree to join the first or second version of the Contract, but this isn't strictly necessary. Joining the Contract would also lock them into voting along the Contracted plan. (If some stage of the Contract somehow fails, then Contracted Players need not continue on with the plan.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on November 19, 2018, 10:39:44 AM
The Progressives agree to both versions of the Contract (noting that both grant us immunity).
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 19, 2018, 03:49:31 PM
Original contract terms for this Turn, agreed to so far by: Tripoli (who is proposing it); the Frog (by chat); and as secondary agreement by Erax.

Provisional contract terms (Populists not to be investigated by the Censor) agreed to so far by: Malize (who is proposing it); the Frog (by chat); and as a secondary agreement by Erax.

Tripoli must announce whether he is accepting or rejecting the provisional contract terms. Doing so will validate and activate one or the other Contract (since he and the Frog, or rather their senators, would be the main enactors).

AzTank sends message by chat that he will not be joining either version of the Contract. He will still be free to support or oppose any actions triggered in sequence by the Contract.

Nothing has been heard from I.I. recently, one way or another....  ??? (He may not be aware yet that we're back in business.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 19, 2018, 09:18:16 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on November 19, 2018, 03:49:31 PM
Original contract terms for this Turn, agreed to so far by: Tripoli (who is proposing it); the Frog (by chat); and as secondary agreement by Erax.

Provisional contract terms (Populists not to be investigated by the Censor) agreed to so far by: Malize (who is proposing it); the Frog (by chat); and as a secondary agreement by Erax.

Tripoli must announce whether he is accepting or rejecting the provisional contract terms. Doing so will validate and activate one or the other Contract (since he and the Frog, or rather their senators, would be the main enactors).

AzTank sends message by chat that he will not be joining either version of the Contract. He will still be free to support or oppose any actions triggered in sequence by the Contract.

Nothing has been heard from I.I. recently, one way or another....  ??? (He may not be aware yet that we're back in business.)

I accept all of the contract terms, including the provisional terms, that Populists not to be investigated by the Censor
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 19, 2018, 09:44:46 PM
This validates and activates the Contract as stated, with the Malize Provision.

Tripoli, the Frog, Malize, and Erax, enter into the Sixth Turn Grand Convocation (as I shall colorfully name their public Contract), wherein each Player of the Contract shall commit all available votes toward the following actions during this Senate session, which shall be automatically processed as follows:

1.) the Proposal of Manlius of the Militarists and Appius Claudius of the Plutocrats for Consul;

2.) the agreement between them (if elected) that Manlius will be Field Consul, and Appius Roman Consul;

3.) the Proposal of Fulvius of the Plutocrats for Censor this Turn;

4.) the agreement that, if elected, Fulvius shall not investigate any member of the Militarists, the Plutocrats, the Populists, or the Progressives this Turn on Minor or Major Suspicions of Corruption (note that this Contract cannot, however, legally waive Special Major Investigations of Assassination attempts);

5.) and the Proposal to send Manlius to Prosecute the Pyrrhic War.

This Contract does not prevent Appius (if the plans get that far) from also introducing a formal Proposal to Raise more potentially available Legions, which he may choose to do before fulfilling the Contracted promise to send Manlius against the Pyrrhic War.

(Strictly speaking the Contract does not specify that Manlius will be given more than one Legion, the minimum possible, to fight the War! -- but unless I'm instructed otherwise by the Frog I will presumptively process the Proposal as sending all available Legions.)

The Aristocrats and the Conservatives may also still join this Contract as a way of pre-specifying their agreement to vote as noted; but this will not render them immune from potential investigation by the Censor.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 19, 2018, 09:49:56 PM
Having achieved this political monument, I will theoretically start processing it tomorrow afternoon, since it's 8:48pm here now, and my left ear has decided to pick up some kind of infection that feels like an occasional ice-pick.  :buck2:

(Or possibly one of the other two Players has sent an assassin after the umpire...  ^-^ Why couldn't it have been a Seduction Intrigue...  :-* )
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 20, 2018, 07:43:18 PM
Blergh. Long day at work (longer day tomorrow), and sitting around for an hour and a half at the clinic (hopefully not to be repeated soon).

Let's get the processes started!

In accord with the 6thTurGraCon: Fulvius of the Plutocrats Proposes Manlius of the Militarists, and Appius Claudius of the Plutocrats, as the new Consuls this Turn.

All four 6thTurGraCon members automatically vote in favor. Even if the other two Factions voted against, and even counting for their activist abilities (which would indeed activate), there would be +17 votes for the Proposal, so it will pass.

In accord with the 6thTurGraCon: Manlius agrees to be the Field Consul, leaving the Frog controlling the HRAO again with his senator Appius Claudius as Roman Consul. Each of the two senators gains 4 influence, up to 8 and 17 respectively; as do their Factions totally, up to 14 and 33 respectively.

The Pontifex Maximus is still alive; and no Dictator is needed yet.

In accord with the 6thTurGraCon: Appius as the new Roman Consul takes over as the new Presiding Magistrate, and Proposes Fulvius of his fellow Plutocrats as the new Censor.

All four 6thTurGraCon members automatically vote in favor, with the same majority results. Fulvius gains 4 Influence, up to 15; and the Plutocrats gain 4 total up to 37. (The Aristocrats still retain first place influence at 39.)

Fulvius temporarily takes the PM post, to declare whether or not there will be investigations this Turn. In accord with the 6thTurGraCon, the only senators who might be investigated are...

...from the Aristocrats: prior Consul Quinctius Cincinnatus (Major); Cornelius (Minor); and Valerius (two Minors);

and from the Conservatives: Fabius the Pontifex Maximus (Major).


(As a sidenote, there are some Minor corruption Suspicions on one of Erax's senators which I forgot to mark before taking the pre-Senate snapshot. They'll be irrelevant this Turn, under the terms of the Contract, but I thought I should still account for my inadvertence there.  O:-) )


We now await the Frog's choice whether to initiate any investigations this Turn.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on November 20, 2018, 08:12:29 PM
As I understand it, the Conservatives are winning (or maybe in second place).  So, I am inclined to proescute Fabius.  (Sorry Larry).

How do I calculate my odds of success? 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 20, 2018, 10:44:53 PM
Just so we're clear: you can launch only one Major Prosecution per Turn, win or lose.

And if you win, Fabius will die.

Which, being a family Senator, will mean that his card loses all its chits and goes to the Curia to await respawning back into the Forum (from which some other Faction, or possibly AzTank again, may convince the new Fabian scion to join.)

If you succeed, you'll also need to Propose a new Pontifex Maximus, since that's Fabius right now. All conferred priesthoods will remain active for life regardless. (Although, AzTank might decide to reassign Fulvius' priesthood to someone else! -- which will deduct a point of Influence from Fulv and from the Plutocrats. He can do this at any time, at will, during any Senate Phase, including at any time during the Prosecution, though not between the verdict and the result.)


Incidentally, AzTank still needs to tell me which of his senators paid the 2 Talents and won the knight for his new or extra minion earlier this Turn. It wouldn't have made any difference in the voting results up to now, but it could prove handy soon. I still recommend giving Marcus Furius Camillus (your Faction Leader) a second minion thereby, since he's guaranteed to pass down all his chits as inheritance to his next family member.


As for odds, I'll work out the details on that next.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 20, 2018, 11:05:22 PM
Some technical details which might become relevant soon...  ^-^

Fulvius does NOT have to Investigate and Prosecute Fabius for a "Major" suspicion! -- he can choose to use one of his two "Minor" Prosecution attempts instead. In a victory, this will not result in death for Fabius, only some nerfing.

If the Censor (Fulvius in this case) is assassinated before declaring a Prosecution, there will be no Prosecutions this Turn. If he is assassinated during a Prosecution, then that will end the Prosecution.

If a Censor is assassinated, there will not be another Censor election until next Turn. Special Major Investigations of Faction Leaders of caught Assassins will still be Prosecuted, but by the current Presiding Magistrate. (So assassinating a Censor isn't safe from retributive investigation.)

Prosecutions cannot be vetoed by the PontMax's special one-veto-per-Turn ability.

I should mention here that AzTank could have used his PontMax's veto ability to scotch the Consul Proposal! But the only thing that would have happened (aside from the conspirators fadging up another similar Contract) would have been the Proposal of Julius, a slightly less capable general, and Appius again, as Consuls. So I didn't bother asking AzTank if he wanted to veto it. He might need it later (though I wasn't expecting Fabius per se to be Prosecuted -- I suspected the Frog had someone in mind, but I didn't know who.)

Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 20, 2018, 11:46:07 PM
For a quick summary of the process:

1.) the Censor must declare he will Prosecute the target (not strictly done yet) and the type of investigation (ditto). Minor suspicions cannot be given Major Prosecutions, but a Major suspicion can be given a Minor Prosecution (with less penalty for the accused on conviction).

2.) the Censor must choose another (consenting) senator to act as Prosecutor -- the Censor is running the trial, not actually prosecuting. Edited to add: valid Prosecutors can be any senator actually in Rome for the Senate, except for the Censor, and except for the Accused. (There's an exception to that, if the Censor is the Faction Leader of a caught assassin: then he must investigate himself! However, Prosecutors and Advocates aren't used in a Prosecution for assassination conspiracy anyway.)

3.) the Accused must choose someone to be his Advocate. He can choose himself, if he wishes! -- or any other senator currently in Rome. Not the Prosecutor nor Censor though, duh. (Note again that in a Special Prosecution for investigating a Faction Leader for assassination conspiracy, no Prosecutors or Advocates can be chosen.)

4.) All Players will be called by the Censor (in order or in no order, Censor's choice) to vote at the start of the Trial, in favor or against Acquittal. Any senator (including the Censor, Prosecutor, and Advocate) can vote for or against (or abstain). All knights and special Faction abilities will factor in. So will senators (not Factions) spending personal treasury cash to buy more votes!

5.) The Accused's Player may make a Popular Appeal, rolling 2d6 and then adding his Popularity (or subtracting if negative Pop). The total is compared to a special table and can add or subtract 4, 8, or 16 votes toward Acquittal. This can also result in a mob freeing or lynching the Accused! (And possibly his opponents or the Advocate!) Fabius has 2 Popularity, so there is no chance of him being slain by the mob, and in the worst possible case 12 votes against him. (It should be noted that this makes Populist senators much harder to convict!)

6.) Assuming the Trial doesn't end by Popular Appeal, the Prosecutor and Advocate make their cases: 2d6 + Advocate's Oratory - Prosecutor's Oratory. (This represents the net result of voting by the hundreds of other normally invisible senators, which could be as much as plus or minus 20.)

7.) This leads to the final tally: Net Player Votes + Net Popular Votes (if any) + Net Trial Votes + the Accused's Influence (13 for Fabius). Any result less than 0 is Conviction. Otherwise Acquittal. Accused loses the relevant Suspicion mark in any case.

8.) Upon Acquittal, the Advocate (if not the Accused) gains 3 Influence, and Prosecutor (not Censor) loses 3. If Freed by mob action, the Censor and Prosecutor both risk death by mortality chit (even for Minor Prosecutions).

9.) Upon any Conviction, the Accused will lose any Prior Consul chit, and the Prosecutor will gain Prior Consul status (if he doesn't have it already). For Minor Conviction, the Accused loses 5 Popularity, loses 5 Influence, and all his Concessions go directly to the Forum for potential reassignment. For Major Conviction, the Accused dies. Either way, the Prosecutor (not the Censor!) will gain half the Accused's lost Influence, rounded up.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on November 21, 2018, 09:09:38 PM
I'll try a major with Aelius to prosecute.  I will prosecute Larry's guy who has a 4 oratory so he can't defend himself.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 21, 2018, 10:29:58 PM
That's Spurious Cassius Vicellinus, who would be a nice vulnerable target (mainly thanks to having almost no influence -- his Ora 4 is actually quite good for Oratory if he chose to Advocate for himself), except for one problem: he isn't under any suspicion of corruption at all! He didn't hold any major office last Turn (or on any Turn so far as I know), and doesn't have any Concessions much less ones he has received profit from. (There are a few other ways to get suspicions of corruption, but none are active yet in the game.)

Actually, Fabius the Pont Max is the only Conservative senator who has any suspicion against him. It's either him; one of the Aristocrats; or no one this Turn. (By Contract you can't go after the other three Players this Turn.)

Tripoli will have to agree to send Aelius to Prosecute for you. His Ora 4 rating is a good choice.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 21, 2018, 10:37:07 PM
Here's a quick updated snapshot of the Aristocrat group:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/6489/agbtf0.jpg)

They're all under some suspicion, but only Cinc is under Major suspicion (having been a Consul last Turn).

They also reek of Influence, and have cash to burn for bribing extra votes from the Senate; and under the circumstances you can probably expect him to successfully appeal to one of those Ora 4 Conservative senators for Advocacy. Cinc is also popular enough that if he gambles on a Popular Appeal to add votes in his favor, it can't be fatal for him.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 22, 2018, 12:26:24 PM
It's US Thanksgiving Day, so I'll be out of pocket most (or all) of the day.

But I'll do a quick update here, that the Frog has decided to aim back at Fabius the PontMax again.

The Frog effectively declared his official Prosecution intention with his choice of Prosecutor as well as a target, which simply didn't count by choosing an invalid target; so by switching back to a valid target, Fabius has been officially chosen by the Censor for Prosecution, with Aelius as the proposed Prosecutor.

Tripoli needs to publicly agree to that, if so.

And meanwhile AzTank should be deciding whether Fabius will Advocate for himself, or choose someone else. This comes down to relative Oratory scores, and Fab only has 2, so I recommend finding someone else to Advocate for him.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 22, 2018, 06:35:20 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on November 22, 2018, 12:26:24 PM
It's US Thanksgiving Day, so I'll be out of pocket most (or all) of the day.

But I'll do a quick update here, that the Frog has decided to aim back at Fabius the PontMax again.

The Frog effectively declared his official Prosecution intention with his choice of Prosecutor as well as a target, which simply didn't count by choosing an invalid target; so by switching back to a valid target, Fabius has been officially chosen by the Censor for Prosecution, with Aelius as the proposed Prosecutor.

Tripoli needs to publicly agree to that, if so.

And meanwhile AzTank should be deciding whether Fabius will Advocate for himself, or choose someone else. This comes down to relative Oratory scores, and Fab only has 2, so I recommend finding someone else to Advocate for him.

Sorry for the delay.  I've been recovering from a turkey-induced coma.  Aelius, while saddened by the apparent betrayal of Roman norms by the guilty, errr,  accused party (who of course, deserves the presumption of innocence and all the protections allowed by the arena, I mean courts....)  Well, in any case, Aelius reluctantly accepts the call  for his services in this sad affair.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 22, 2018, 07:49:44 PM
This game is just the best...  >:D

I'm assuming AzTank is still hors de turkey, or however the French spell it.

I'm actually more concerned about I.I., however, whom I'm not sure realizes the game is back on. Not that he's had any public choices to make, and maybe he's trying to maneuver behind backs with p-mails; or maybe he's just waiting to see what happens.  :(
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 22, 2018, 11:19:28 PM
AzTank confirms by chat that he will give the knight to Camillus (minions up to 2; Conservative normal vote tally up to 15; Cam's cash down 2 to 0), and defend with Spurius.

(Also I've seen p-mail confirmation that I.I. knows the game is running, and is caught up on events.)

That sets up the Trial! The Frog must start by calling a vote from all Factions.

We can be sure that the Plutocrats will be voting AGAINST acquittal, and that the Conservatives will be voting FOR acquittal. (If AzTank and/or the Frog want to specify some senators otherwise, that's fine, just let me know pronto! -- it is not necessary for ANY senator to vote one way instead of the other.)

The Conservatives' knight-activist ability doubles the votes of their minions when voting against any Proposition (the idea being to defend against harmful change), but this ability does NOT count when dealing with any other type of vote including Prosecutions. And even if it did, in this case he'd actually want to vote 'for' the result (acquittal) not 'against'.

So, assuming Conservatives vote 'for' and Plutocrats vote 'against', the votes will be 15 to 14 respectively, with a net Player vote so far of +1.

This does NOT yet count any cash spent by Players from senators' personal Treasuries (NOT from Faction Treasuries) as bribes for extra votes! AzTank and/or the Frog should let me know how much, if any, they intend to spend. So should other Players when they weigh in.

I happen to know already that Malize plans to vote AGAINST acquittal, so nominally his 18 votes will swing the current Net Player vote to -17!

Assuming Tripoli, having agreed to Prosecute, bloc-votes his senators, that will be another 14 votes AGAINST acquittal, so -31 currently.

This provisionally accounts for 4 of the 6 players, unless they intend to split votes (or Malize has changed his mind), and not counting any personal cash they want to spend on buying extra votes from the invisible senators.

Erax's activist abilities will be in effect, so if he votes to protect the PontMax he can bring 5 votes; or 7 votes to harm the PontMax. Also, if Erax's Flaminius musters his knights' activism against Fabius, and the Trial ends with Fabius' Conviction, then Flam will gain +2 Influence.

I.I.'s Aristocrats still have the largest total Influence, so their activist voting will be in effect. He can bring 17 votes either way, for or against Acquittal.


If Players need a quick snapshot of the personal Treasuries of their senators, this pre-Senate link is still valid (except that Camilius of the Conservatives no longer has his 2 Talents, those having been retroactively spent on his winning roll for another minion.) http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=22942.msg635290#msg635290
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on November 23, 2018, 09:08:12 AM
The Progressives vote against acquittal, with no talents for extra votes.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on November 23, 2018, 10:51:05 AM
Jason has correctly allocated my votes.  No talents committed
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 23, 2018, 11:17:44 AM
Quote from: Erax on November 23, 2018, 09:08:12 AM
The Progressives vote against acquittal, with no talents for extra votes.

That's -7 votes, so the Net Player Vote is now -31 -7 = -38.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 23, 2018, 11:18:55 AM
The Frog sends a message by chat, which Larry could see so it counts as a public message which I'll repost here for his convenience:

Quote from: The FrogI will spend in support of the prosecution.
I will match whatever Fabius spends and spend up to 3 more talents if I have them.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 23, 2018, 02:54:43 PM
The militarists will all vote as a block against acquittal.  From the count thus far, it looks like it will not require me to spend anything extra to secure a conviction.  If I am wrong on that, I will spend up to 3 talents to secure a conviction.   
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 23, 2018, 02:58:30 PM
Strictly speaking, it may not be possible to 'secure' a result either way, during the Faction Vote segment of the Trial. That's because there will always be at least one, maybe two, 2d6 rolls representing shifts in the minor senator votes not directly affected by the Players' senators and their contacts.

Factions for and against acquittal may be able to significantly weigh probabilities toward their preferred outcomes, however.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 23, 2018, 03:08:34 PM
Anyway, that validates the provisional net vote of -38 so far (against acquittal), with some clear instructions from the Frog about what to do if Fabius uses any of his personal cash to bribe votes. (I'm a bit unclear about where to take the Frog's own bribes from, but unless he gives me specific instructions I'll try to spread the expense out evenly among his senators.  O:-) )

Consequently, we're waiting for I.I.'s choice, and possibly for AzTank's choice about whether to add bribery or not (which he hasn't indicated yet).
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on November 24, 2018, 12:45:30 PM
The Aristocrats will not have the Pontifex Maximus slandered for a tenure that has seen nothing but prosperity and growth for the Republic. I vote for acquittal and spend 12 talents for the defence according to the following public contract:

Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 24, 2018, 08:19:55 PM
AzTank hasn't agreed to that contract publicly yet, so I won't process that yet.

AzTank sends a message by chat that as part of his voting he'll make a Popular Appeal. (This has to be done when the Accused's Faction sends in their votes, but with asynch there's some lag involved.) He has not yet chosen whether to spend cash on bribing votes yet.

He rolls 2d6...

[roll]2d6[/roll]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 24, 2018, 08:33:09 PM
Oh. huh. We seem to have lost diceroll functionality in the move to a new host. Probably just hasn't been activated yet. {squinting} Nope, can't find the button for it anymore.

[dice]2d6[/dice]

Nope, not that either.

Oh well, I'll drop a note to the ad/mods and see if they know how to re-implement it.

Fortunately I have plenty of dice on our TTS gameboard. Unfortunately, he rolls a hard 4 (2+2). +2 Popularity = 6.

That's -4 votes on the Pop Appeal table.

Currently the Net Total Votes stands at -38 (not counting I.I. yet since AzTank hasn't agreed publicly). The Popular Appeal backfiring will make that -42. Fabius' Influence +13 will make that -29 against Acquittal so far.

AzTanks needs to decide if he's going to agree to I.I.'s proposed contract.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 25, 2018, 08:57:05 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on November 24, 2018, 08:33:09 PM
Oh. huh. We seem to have lost diceroll functionality in the move to a new host. Probably just hasn't been activated yet. {squinting} Nope, can't find the button for it anymore.

[dice]2d6[/dice]

Nope, not that either.

Oh well, I'll drop a note to the ad/mods and see if they know how to re-implement it.

Fortunately I have plenty of dice on our TTS gameboard. Unfortunately, he rolls a hard 4 (2+2). +2 Popularity = 6.

That's -4 votes on the Pop Appeal table.

Currently the Net Total Votes stands at -38 (not counting I.I. yet since AzTank hasn't agreed publicly). The Popular Appeal backfiring will make that -42. Fabius' Influence +13 will make that -29 against Acquittal so far.

AzTanks needs to decide if he's going to agree to I.I.'s proposed contract.

This whole trial scenario is a bit reminiscent of this: https://youtu.be/zrzMhU_4m-g?t=6
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on November 25, 2018, 12:21:29 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on November 24, 2018, 08:19:55 PM
AzTank hasn't agreed to that contract publicly yet, so I won't process that yet.

AzTank sends a message by chat that as part of his voting he'll make a Popular Appeal. (This has to be done when the Accused's Faction sends in their votes, but with asynch there's some lag involved.) He has not yet chosen whether to spend cash on bribing votes yet.

He rolls 2d6...

[roll]2d6[/roll]

I agree to the contract
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 25, 2018, 01:07:41 PM
Okay, I've left notecards about the Aristo-Conservation Contract on both Players' mats to help remind me of the terms. ;)

Time to resolve!

Although I've reminded him a couple of times that this is a thing he can do during this segment, AzTank has not stated that he will re-assign the priesthood off Fulvius (the Plutocrat Censor) to someone else. He could still do this if he survives, but we're entering final resolution so this option has passed until such time.

According to the Contract, Fabius must make Corny and Val priests asap. He can only make (or re-assign) a priesthood once per Turn, but can do so at any time (during the Senate Phase) so long as he's between actions. Since Fabius may die soon, he'll automatically resolve this condition per the Contract, and assign a priesthood to Cornelius of the Aristocrats, in the order requested (not knowing any more accurate preference.) Corneilus gains 1 influence (up to 15, new total 40), and the Aristocrats (per their ability) spawn another 1 Influence to be spent on either Cinc or Val.

Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 25, 2018, 01:23:19 PM
In prior p-mail correspondence, I can report that I.I. promised given the ratification of the Contract, that he would not only bloc-vote to Acquit Fabius, but would also spend all 12 of his senators' personal Treasuries. So Cinc's and Val's treasuries go to zero.

I.I.'s normal vote tally is 12, but since the Aristocrats have the highest total Influence his 5 knights (per Aristo special Faction ability) are able to each bring another vote from the Senate, for a total of 17 votes. His bribery adds another 12 votes.

Tripoli set up a condition where he would add up to all his cash if necessary to secure a conviction, but all his cash won't be enough to guarantee a conviction, so by his terms he doesn't spend it.

AzTank, according to the specific terms set up by the Frog for matching "Fabius'" bribery, could spend all 6 of his personal cash against 5 matching cash from the Frog, for 1 extra vote, but it wouldn't make any difference to the final roll, so he doesn't spend for bribes. Neither then does the Frog; and everyone else has declined to spend on bribes already.

-38 Net Votes currently, +17 +12 = -9 Net Total Votes.

Final tally before the final Trial stage: -9 Net Total Faction Votes; -4 Popular Appeal backfire; +13 Fabius' Influence; equals 0 Net Votes so far.

In the final stage, the Prosecutor Aelius brings -4 votes (from his Oratory) against Acquittal; and the Advocate Spurius Cassius brings +4 votes for Acquittal. Net Votes still 0 so far after final arguments.

The next post will resolve the first Trial of the Republic, and the life of Fabius Pontifex Maximus!
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 25, 2018, 01:35:49 PM
In the final trial 2d6 roll, 7 equals no change, and totals above and below it equal 4 vote shifts, the maximum being 20 votes either way.

(This means under the current circumstances, if Fabius was entering the final voting stage with Net -21 votes against him, his Conviction would be secured. Tripoli would have spent up to all his personal cash to secure a Conviction, but he'd need 21 Talents to do so, and he doesn't have that much. Consequently, according to his conditions, he spends none of it on bribery, since he can't guarantee conviction doing so. Arguably he would have been locked out of adding any bribery votes at all, at the time he made the condition, since at that time it either would have looked definite for a secured conviction, being far below -21, or else technically impossible to secure a conviction yet. But I'm trying to be as fair as possible to all sides, so I did allow for the possibility of him adding more votes to secure a Conviction by spending his cash bribing at the last moment.)

Consequently, the current net 0 votes means that if Fabius rolls a total of 7 or higher, he'll be Acquitted.

I've dropped a note to the admins about re-installing the dice roller, since that would be REAAALLLY handy right now. But we don't have it yet, so I'll have to continue using umpire's dice on the board.

It comes down to the final roll of....

4
and
2

That's a 6. The remaining invisible senators ended up voting a net -4 against Acquittal.

Fabius is Convicted of Major Corruption by a net total of 4 votes.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 25, 2018, 01:50:56 PM
Since only one Major Prosecution is allowed per Turn, this ends the Prosecution segment of this Senate Phase. All Suspected Senators lose their suspicions. Presiding Magistrate duties go back to Appius Claudius of the Plutocrats.

Fabius of the Conservatives, the first Pontifex Maximus of the Republic, being convicted of major corruption, is put to death: the first casualty of Players against each other.

As only a family Senator, he loses all chits (even in the Conservative Faction); and not being the Faction Leader, his card goes to the Curia to stay until the Fabians raise a new scion to represent them in the Senate.

Conservative Normal Vote Tally goes down to 12. (Pap's Ora 2 + 1 knight; Spurius Ora 4; Cam's Ora 3 + 2 knights.)

Conservative Total Influence goes down to 10+6+3=19.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/70/pJeZRd.jpg)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 25, 2018, 02:07:35 PM
The Frog's Plutocrats, roughly in 3rd Place, have shifted the balance of power, leading a new coalition of Factions. For now.

Appius Claudius of the Plutocrats must now consider the next Mandatory Business: the Proposal for election of a new Pontifex Maximus, which takes new precedence over any other remaining Mandatory Business.

Meanwhile, although the Trial was lost, the terms of the Aristo-Conservation Contract still require AzTank's Conservatives to send 12 Talents from their Faction Treasury to the Aristocrat Treasury, sometime before the end of Turn 8. (It is of course impossible for Fabius to make Val a priest now, but the condition of that term is judged to be fulfilled, with Fabius having done his best by making Corny a priest before dying.)

The Conservatives do have 31 Talents in their Faction Treasury. They are not necessarily required to send 12 Talents from that immediately, but AzTank could do so at any time going forward. He can also spend his Faction cash as he sees fit from now until the end of Turn 8, but in order to ensure compliance with the public contract, I will not allow him to spend below 12 Talents.

If bad luck takes him below 12 Talents, that was the risk I.I. was taking. By the terms of the contract, I will effectively resolve it by reserving 12 Talents to be sent to the Aristo Faction Treasury at the end of Turn 8. If 12 Talents, by bad luck, are not in the Conservative Treasury at the end of Turn 8, I.I. gets all of what's available, and clears out this term of the Contract thereby.

AzTank can still pay the full 12 voluntarily at any time, starting now. Note, however, that any transfer of cash from Faction to Faction will necessarily be delayed in receipt until the Revenue Phase following the transfer action. (So I.I. will get resolution on his repay, no later than Revenue Phase of Turn 9.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 25, 2018, 02:18:40 PM
I should note, that literally any senator present in Rome (which is all senators this Turn) can be validly elected PontMax, regardless of any or no other offices already held.

The new PontMax will also continue to hold any current office(s) until the normal expiration. So a priest could be elected PontMax, and will still be a priest until death or until some PontMax re-assigns his priesthood. A Roman Consul can also be elected PontMax, and will remain a Consul until that office expires next Turn.

Since Censors can be re-elected each Turn (instead of needing someone new to be Censor), a senator could theoretically continue as both Censor and PontMax (and priest, if already one), until the end of his life, so long as he keeps getting re-elected as Censor...  ^-^

Whether the Frog will try to consolidate more power among his senators, or Propose the office as a reward for supporting his Prosecution, or perhaps Propose the office as a consolation to his new political enemies, remains to be seen....  :peace: \m/ :-"
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on November 25, 2018, 04:29:44 PM
Extra influence to Valerius.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 25, 2018, 04:42:24 PM
Done: Val's influence goes up to 11; new total 41.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on November 25, 2018, 09:13:53 PM
Because of the conviction, Aelius (the prosecutor) gains Prior Consul and 7 Influence while Flaminius gains 2 Influence, right?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 25, 2018, 09:38:31 PM
Ah, yep! -- I'm new at Trials, too, so thanks for the catch!  :bd: :hide:

Aelius gains half the Influence lost by the Accused, which in this case is all his 13 influence due to dying, rounded up: 13/2 = 6.5 rounds up to a gain of 7 Influence. Thus up from 2 to 9; Militarist new total Influence 21.

Flaminius of the Progressives had activist knights bringing x2 votes to oppose the corruption of Fabius; thus his Conviction (per the Progressive special ability) gains 2 Influence for Flaminius, up from 3 to 5, new total up to 7.

Also! -- Fabius was a Prior Consul, and Aelius was not, so having won his Prosecution Aelius gains Prior Consul status. (Fabius would lose his, but he died anyway.) This essentially means Aelius has proven the legal acumen to be a valid candidate for Censor office himself, whereas one of Fabius' punishments for a Minor conviction would be to lose his Prior Consul status so that he would be temporarily barred from being elected and seek a revenge investigation against his Prosecutor.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on November 25, 2018, 10:36:08 PM
Now that that nasty bit of business is over...the Populists would like to put a motion on the forum floor for activating Tribunes...the Plebs need a voice!
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on November 25, 2018, 11:35:30 PM
Having reviewed  the Sixth Turn Grand Convocation, I think I am free to nominate anyone I want for PontMax, so I will nominate my guy whose name is partially occluded in the pictures.  is it Bacilius?  or Acilius? Anyway, that's who I am proposing. 

If Malize will vote in favor, I will permit the motion for activating Tribunes to go forward.  (That is, assuming that he needs my support to get a vote taken on that motion. Does he have the power to initiate legislation, or is that my exclusive perogative?) 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on November 26, 2018, 02:36:14 AM
Quote from: Ethel the Frog on November 25, 2018, 11:35:30 PM
Having reviewed  the Sixth Turn Grand Convocation, I think I am free to nominate anyone I want for PontMax, so I will nominate my guy whose name is partially occluded in the pictures.  is it Bacilius?  or Acilius? Anyway, that's who I am proposing. 

If Malize will vote in favor, I will permit the motion for activating Tribunes to go forward.  (That is, assuming that he needs my support to get a vote taken on that motion. Does he have the power to initiate legislation, or is that my exclusive perogative?)

afaik I think anyone can propose new business in the forum(?)  I think...lol.

Anyway, if it requires you proposing it, then I will gladly exchange my votes on pont max for you proposing.   

if it doesn't require you proposing it, then I'll still be backing you at pont max in return for your votes for the tribune (it works out the same anyway, you won't be *not* backing something you propose for the forum, as I think there's a potential negative?)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 26, 2018, 01:35:06 PM
Actually, only the PM can make Proposals for voting, and right now that's Fulvius of the Plutocrats.

Once the Pleb Revolt is settled, Tribunes will become unlocked (on the following Turn's Senate) and then any Player with a Tribune card can discard it to make a Proposal or Veto.

Normally the Pleb Revolt would be the next Mandatory Business, after the Prosecution segment, but first the Republic needs a new PontMax, so that has to be backtracked to settle first.

Quote from: Ethel the Frog on November 25, 2018, 11:35:30 PM
Having reviewed  the Sixth Turn Grand Convocation, I think I am free to nominate anyone I want for PontMax, so I will nominate my guy whose name is partially occluded in the pictures.  is it Bacilius?  or Acilius? Anyway, that's who I am proposing.

It's Acilius. He's your "new man" in the Faction. Don't know why his name would be partially occluded... oh, it's because he has a Talent sitting next to him name. My bad.

Yes, the 6thTurnGrandCon doesn't have anything to say about getting a new PontMax one way or another; and any senator in Rome (which is all of them right now) can be validly Proposed for the Office. So Acilius would be a valid Proposal.


The Proposal is formally made, Acilius of the Plutocrats for the new Pontifex Maximus For Life (however long that may be...  ^-^ ) A vote will be required. The Frog will need to either call a vote order, or allow Players to vote at will.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 26, 2018, 01:40:22 PM
I'm at the office so I can't double-check the board yet, but I think the Plutocrats still have 14 votes, and I'm sure the Populists have 18 votes; and Malize has already stated he's willing to back Acilius if the Frog will propose in favor of resolving the Pleb Revolt next, which he has agreed to.

So provisionally that's 32 votes already FOR Acilius as the new PontMax4Life.

Potentially there are 13 votes (Conserv 11+2) plus 17 (Aristo 12+5) plus 14 (Militarist) plus 7 (Progs 5+2) =51 against.

And potentially another 17 (Aristo 12+5) plus 11 (Conserv) plus 14 (Mil) plus 5 (Progs) = 47 for.

This doesn't count personal Treasuries to buy votes, which might be a factor again.

Basically, if the Conservs, or Aristos, or Militarists join in, any one of them will be the swing majority for. (10 more votes 'for' will make the difference. Again, not counting bribes...)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 26, 2018, 02:23:08 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on November 26, 2018, 01:40:22 PM
I'm at the office so I can't double-check the board yet, but I think the Plutocrats still have 14 votes, and I'm sure the Populists have 18 votes; and Malize has already stated he's willing to back Acilius if the Frog will propose in favor of resolving the Pleb Revolt next, which he has agreed to.

So provisionally that's 32 votes already FOR Acilius as the new PontMax4Life.

Potentially there are 13 votes (Conserv 11+2) plus 17 (Aristo 12+5) plus 14 (Militarist) plus 7 (Progs 5+2) =51 against.

And potentially another 17 (Aristo 12+5) plus 11 (Conserv) plus 14 (Mil) plus 5 (Progs) = 47 for.

This doesn't count personal Treasuries to buy votes, which might be a factor again.

Basically, if the Conservs, or Aristos, or Militarists join in, any one of them will be the swing majority for. (10 more votes 'for' will make the difference. Again, not counting bribes...)

The militarists will also back, in exchange for resolving the plebe revolt
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on November 26, 2018, 04:11:58 PM
The Aristocrats vote for.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 26, 2018, 04:29:04 PM
Not back at the house yet to resolve, but I'm sure that this heavily lands Acilius as the new PontMax.

Next Mandatory Business is whether to solve the Plebian Revolt or not, and the Frog already declared he would do so, so unless he backs out after all then I'll treat that as the next Proposal: establish the Plebian Assembly (unlocking the Tribunes for next Turn, and discarding the Pleb revolt).

With Plutocrats (14), Populists (18), and Militarists (14) already signed on to concede the Pleb Revolt, that should be a majority. I'll have to resolve the Inf drop / Pop rise for Appius Claudius when I get home. (And adjust for Acilius of course.)

That should also finish Mandatory Business.

Valid and useful Other Business amounts to whether the Frog intends to have Appius Propose raising the remaining two Legions or not, before Proposing to send Manlius out (with X number of Legions) to.... um, I'll have to check which War, as per the Contract. (Raising the remaining Legions was NOT part of the Contract, so the Frog can Propose that or not. Strictly speaking he didn't Contract for how many he would send to whatever War it was with Manlius either...  ^-^ )

Meanwhile, if anyone has any Tribunes, don't get itchy yet: they can't be used until next Turn's Senate.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on November 26, 2018, 06:29:04 PM
Phyrric War
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 26, 2018, 06:48:04 PM
^^ Thx!

Acilius' Influence as the new PontMax goes up 4 to 9; bringing the Plutocrat total influence to 41 -- tying and thus deactivating the Aristocrats' activists. (He also gets the extra-cash-die for being PontMax. ;) )
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 26, 2018, 06:49:27 PM
The Frog validates by chat that he did intend to Propose discarding the Plebian Revolt, thus unlocking Tribune functionality; and as noted there are already enough votes to carry a majority. (Not that anyone other than the PM's player might want to not vote for it, since it effectively grants more power to all the players!) Appius sacrifices 2 Influence to discard the Event (down again to 15; Plutocrat total back down to 39, Aristos back in the lead again and activisting, which I declare to be a real word now. ;) ) But he gains 2 Pop (up to 2).

Having double-checked the expansion rules now that I've gotten back to the house, I see that Tribune functionality begins IMMEDIATELY! -- so anyone who already has a Tribune, you can play it at any time during this or any future Senate Phase.

This leads into a discussion of what Tribunes do, so I'll post that next.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 26, 2018, 07:11:37 PM
Okay, here is a sample Tribune Intrigue Forum card which I copy-pasted from somewhere and will presently delete off the board.  ^-^

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/4985/RdgW18.jpg)

The text is really quite explanatory, including the several exceptions to its usage.

Historically, Tribunes were supposed to be the bridge between the Plebian Assembly and the Senate, and stood for popular election. A senator could be a Tribune but anyone of the proper age could be. Some Statesmen later in the game will also effectively be Tribunes; and the PontMax is kind of a half-tribune since he can veto most Proposals once a Turn the way a Tribune can. When Statesmen are Tribunes, they function like having a permanent Tribune that instead of discarding after use is only tapped out for the Turn.

There is one Latin Era Tribune in the game, which since we've used up all the Latin Era cards you may deductively expect someone to be holding right now. It is equal in all respects to other Tribunes, and unlike the pre-Early Statesmen he will not be discarding at the start of the Early Era. (I don't recall if there are any Italian Era Tribunes per se, but if so they'll be equal in ability, too.)


For all practical purposes, any Player with a Tribune Intrigue card can make a Proposal just like the PM can -- at the expense of discarding your Tribune. You can also use this ability to interrupt the PM closing the Senate by Proposing something for a vote (which is the only way to interrupt closing the Senate for the Turn, by the way. Even assassination won't do that.)

Tribunes also allow their Players to veto Proposals or Prosecutions. A Presiding Magistrate's Player doesn't need a Tribune to make a Proposal of course, but he can use one to veto someone else's Proposal!

Note the condition as the card states: you can only veto a vote before or during your own Faction's voting. Once you vote, you're locked into your choice, win or lose.

That's it. They're quite simple really! And they hugely change the game's dynamics.  >:D
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 26, 2018, 07:15:38 PM
Oh, forgot to mention: I went back to double-check who has any Tribunes face down. I've sent reminders to anyone who does -- like I said, you can expect at least one Tribune to be lurking on the fringes of a Faction ready to be played (the Latin Era Tribune), but I won't say if there are any more primed to go yet.

If you didn't receive a private message from me, you don't have one yet.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 26, 2018, 07:18:07 PM
I think this catches me up, and finishes Mandatory Business.

Per his Contract, the Frog must eventually Propose sending Manlius to the Pyrrhic War with some number of Legions (unspecified by the Contract); but he should decide whether or not he's going to Propose Raising the 9th and/or 10th Legion before then, too.

Or, someone could Tribune that Proposal first -- though that seems a bit of a waste of a Tribune in this case!  ::)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 26, 2018, 07:21:55 PM
Incidentally, if anyone is unhappy with the Plutocrats concentrating so much political power: a Tribune can be used to Propose stripping the PontMax of his office! However, this vote uniquely requires more than 2/3 majority to pass.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on November 26, 2018, 08:51:28 PM
Wow.  Tribune cards look crazy useful.  This will indeed change the game dynamic.  I am totally into the idea of having them--they will prevent any one of us from having abusing the monopoly on initiating proposals.  It diffuses power, but makes influence more important.  And, yeah, I can see that they would make the game dynamics a lot more complicated.

My gmail is dmakman@gmail.com.  Can we all connect on google hangouts and make that for discussion and use this more for displaying the board? I think separating the two functions of discussion and updating the board, will make it easier to play. 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on November 27, 2018, 11:16:39 AM
Regarding the legions, I say we raise both, it'll help minimize losses.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on November 27, 2018, 10:09:08 PM
Ok. I am proposing we raise two legions.  (Has the tribune proposal passed?) 

Vote in any order on this and on the tribune thing if it has not passed yet.  THen let me know what the next order of business is. 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 27, 2018, 10:26:34 PM
Quote from: Ethel the Frog on November 27, 2018, 10:09:08 PM
Ok. I am proposing we raise two legions.  (Has the tribune proposal passed?) 

Vote in any order on this and on the tribune thing if it has not passed yet.  THen let me know what the next order of business is.

Yep, the Tribune thing passed. (I left a note back at the hangout when it did.  O:-) ) That's why Tribunes are a thing now. (Appius had to sacrifice a little Influence to do it, but he gained back as much Popularity.)


After this vote, pass or fail, you could try raising only one legion (if it fails); but otherwise the only thing remaining will be sending Manlius to War, which I can process automatically since you have a bunch of Contracted votes for it already. I'll only need to know from you how many Legions you want to send with Manny as part of your eventual Proposal on that. ;)

I'll drop a vote alert by p-mail to help expedite things. :)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on November 27, 2018, 11:36:56 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on November 27, 2018, 10:26:34 PMAfter this vote, pass or fail, you could try raising only one legion (if it fails); but otherwise the only thing remaining will be sending Manlius to War, which I can process automatically since you have a bunch of Contracted votes for it already. I'll only need to know from you how many Legions you want to send with Manny as part of your eventual Proposal on that. ;)
Hypothetically, could the Frog assign Manlius one legion to get him killed and still force his coalition partners to vote for the proposal?  ;)

If so, that's quite the loophole in the contract.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on November 28, 2018, 02:49:54 AM
Vote for the legions.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 28, 2018, 08:17:57 AM
Quote from: IncompetentIdiot on November 27, 2018, 11:36:56 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on November 27, 2018, 10:26:34 PMAfter this vote, pass or fail, you could try raising only one legion (if it fails); but otherwise the only thing remaining will be sending Manlius to War, which I can process automatically since you have a bunch of Contracted votes for it already. I'll only need to know from you how many Legions you want to send with Manny as part of your eventual Proposal on that. ;)
Hypothetically, could the Frog assign Manlius one legion to get him killed and still force his coalition partners to vote for the proposal?  ;)

If so, that's quite the loophole in the contract.

He absolutely could, yes!

Why he would do that, I have no idea. But I've been hinting that the loophole exists since y'all agreed to it. ;)

I should however also note, that assigning one Legion to Manlius is not likely to get him killed. Death chances for commanders in battle are directly proportionate to how many Legions they lost during particular distinct fights. Paradoxically, if he goes up and gets his one Legion slaughtered, he only has one chance to die, effectively one chance in however many chits are in the death bag. (One for each family in the game, plus some blanks, plus a couple of draw-2-more chits.) If he goes up and gets five Legions slaughtered, he has five chances to die (the last chance being a capture instead, if the War is still Active).

I'll want to double-check that with the rules soon. I don't recall a Force wipe being automatic death for its commander(s), but that does seem intuitively correct and the proper neurons may just not be firing.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 28, 2018, 09:01:40 AM
AzTank sends in a p-mail that Conservatives will vote for the Legion Raise.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 28, 2018, 09:33:35 AM
Quote from: Ethel the Frog on November 27, 2018, 10:09:08 PM
Ok. I am proposing we raise two legions.  (Has the tribune proposal passed?) 

Vote in any order on this and on the tribune thing if it has not passed yet.  THen let me know what the next order of business is.

I'm a little behind the power curve on this one.  I vote in favor of the proposal to raise the 2 legions
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 28, 2018, 10:12:57 AM
Passing through, let's see: Plutocrats, Progressives, Conservatives, Militarists, Populists -- I'm sure we've got an absolute majority even without a definite vote from the Aristocrats (though a very good question from I.I.!)

So, I'll process that this afternoon.

Next up then comes the Contracted Deployment. The Frog will only have to specify how many Legions he's sending.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 28, 2018, 02:55:58 PM
The Frog sends by chat that he'll Propose as many Legions be sent as Tripoli wants.

I feel pretty safe in saying that would be "ALLLLL OFFF THEMMMMM!"  \m/ (Since he thought 8 was a little underpowered for his expedition and voted for 2 more.)

With the Contracted votes, this Proposal will automatically pass.

I'll have to double-check whether this fulfills all the conditions of this Contract, or if there are others lingering forward.

This will probably end the Senate Phase, too, as no other useful Proposals remain (unless there's a conspiracy with enough clout to try stripping the new PontMax! -- but under the circumstances that seems unlikely, for this Turn anyway. ;) )


Consequently, I should be processing the next phases automatically for a while tonight and reporting results.  O:-)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 28, 2018, 05:36:45 PM
Since it is a strength 7 war, I would like all of 'em for the Pyrrhic war  I think we can hold off prosecuting the other war for one turn, at the cost of some unrest.  Am I correct on this, or is there a mininimum number of legions we would need for the second war (whose name escapes me)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 28, 2018, 07:24:58 PM
I'm not sure what you're asking, but if a War doesn't get attacked it doesn't count as Prosecuted; and I seem to recall reading in the rules that if attacking it leads to so many Legion casualties that there are fewer Legions at the War than its basic Land Strength (not counting other factors which might be on the enemy's side of the War, none of which have unlocked yet) then even attacking it doesn't count as Prosecuting it.

(This is a subtle point that I might have missed in one of the Republic's earliest battles, when Cinc lost all but one of his Legions: he had to have dropped below the Land Strength of the War, none of which are less than 2, and so the War should not have been counted as Prosecuted. But this is something I'll be rechecking on future Wars when Forces have less than minimal strength.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 28, 2018, 09:06:18 PM
I just wanted to make sure I understood the mechanics.  It looks like we can not send any legions to the second latin war, leaving it unprosecuted at a cost of 1 unrest next turn (rule 1.10.9).  If hypothetically all legions were to go to the Pyrrhic  war,  the Roman combat value would be 10 (#legions) + 8 (Manlius' military skill).  (Quick note: are any legions veteran?  If so, that would add 1 per veteran legion) v. a strength 7 war, ie a difference of 11.  On the CRT, that means a die roll of anything other than "snake eyes" would be a victory, and there would be  a 72% of having no losses at all.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 28, 2018, 09:18:53 PM
That's all correct. No Veterans yet: veteran Legions don't unlock until the Early Provincial Era.


Yokai! -- let's get to it! Having allowed plenty of time for anyone to throw assassinations or whatnot  ^-^, and with nothing else useful to Propose, I judge the Senate Phase to be automatically concluded.

Having looked over the SIXTH TURN GRAND CONVOCATION thoroughly, I judge all its terms to have been fulfilled, and the Contract to now expire. (Note that the Aristo-Conservation Contract must still run for at least three more Turns, though.)

I don't think there are any more personal statistics to adjust, so off Manlius goes to attack the Pyrrhic War!


(An ad/mod, Jarhead if I recall correctly, or if not him then it was JudgeDredd -- my neurons get their nicknames mixed up in my memory frequently -- has promised to re-install the dice rolling module; but that hasn't happened yet so I'll still be using TTS dice and reporting the results. As Tripoli has calculated, it should be a slaughterous curbstomp.  O0 )
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 28, 2018, 10:04:03 PM
Rome's Talents drop 20 to 106, by the way, in Raising the 9th and 10th Legions.

Manlius leaves Rome with all 10 Legions; the Militarist Total Influence goes down 8 to 13, and the vote tally goes down 5 to 9.

Snapshot of the Manly One at war with his Legions:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/2261/OQoT27.jpg)


He's still a Military Statesman, so still has those bonuses to his Mil score; and still has his Concession. I just left those markers back home for my convenience in moving things around.

Note that he's still Faction Leader despite being out of Rome at War! -- if he dies, he'll lose all his "pieces" except that one, and his family card will bounce back to Tripoli immediately from the Curia. (He'll still collect his Concession income while at War, too, in case something happens to delay him here.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 28, 2018, 10:13:02 PM
TURN SIX -- COMBAT PHASE
------------------------

Field Consul Manlius vs the Pyrrhic War!
Manly Legions: 10
Manly Headquarters: 8
War's Land Strength: -7
DRM = +11

3d6 = 10 (not a D/S result, yay!) + 11 DRM = 21

That's 18 or more, so total victory, no losses!
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 28, 2018, 10:49:07 PM
(This was so much of a slaughter, that I had John Carpenter's "Halloween Triumphant" running in the background while resolving the Phase...)



(The mask pulses in 3D if you watch carefully. Or too much...  >:D )

Unrest -1, down to 2. Spoils = 10 Talents, so Roman Treasury up 10 to 116. The Pyhhric War discards.

No Enemy Leader (Pyrrhus having died before the War started), so no Spolia Opima yet! Manlius gains half the War's Land strength, rounded up, so 4 + 1 (for Militarist special ability) = 5 Pop (up from 0 to 5) and 5 Influence (up from 8 to 13). Manlius goes back to Rome: total votes back up 5 to 14; total influence back up 13 to 26! All ten Legions return to Active.

With all fights done, the 2nd Latin War moves to Unprosecuted.

This ends the Combat Phase.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 28, 2018, 10:55:50 PM
TURN SIX -- Revolution Phase
----------------------------
No rebellions possible yet.
No one needs to discard down to 5 cards or less.

No one has a Statesman or Concession which can be validly played (I double checked). And that ends the Turn!

It's bedtime here for me, so I'll start processing Turn Seven tomorrow afternoon or evening, with the Mortality Phase; the first segment of the Revenue Phase; and a new batch of snapshots for the status quo.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 29, 2018, 09:04:57 AM
Also, one legion becomes veteran. (Rule 1.10.5 ) ("One Legion from among the survivors of a Land Battle that is a Stalemate, Standoff, or Victory is transformed into a Veteran Legion by flipping it to its Veteran side).  Here's a question:  The rule also provides that the "Legion Allegiance marker is placed on the Commander's card "  I'm really not interested in having any legions with allegiance to Manlius.  Is it possible for me to voluntarily give up the legions' allegiance?  I would think so, as this would be similar to the historical Cincinatus  (or George Washington) turning back to civilian life after a war.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on November 29, 2018, 01:34:43 PM
I think Veterans are unlocked only in the next era.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 29, 2018, 02:10:18 PM
Veteran generation starts after the pre-Early Eras end. During "Birth of the Republic" no Veteran Legions can be created.

That wasn't even my rule. ;) But I agree with it for balancing purposes.

Quote from: Tripoli on November 29, 2018, 09:04:57 AM
Here's a question:  The rule also provides that the "Legion Allegiance marker is placed on the Commander's card "  I'm really not interested in having any legions with allegiance to Manlius.  Is it possible for me to voluntarily give up the legions' allegiance?  I would think so, as this would be similar to the historical Cincinatus  (or George Washington) turning back to civilian life after a war.

Sorrrrt of. The rule on this is bound up with the rules on declaring or refusing to rebel against the Senate, which also a functionality that unlocks in the next Era. (That one is my house rule, since rebellion was kept in Birth of the Republic in case Players wanted to make it a game to itself instead of a prequel to the main game. However, rebellion to kingship against the Senate was so sharply watched during the period of Italian expansion that senators were often executed on the flimsiest charges of conspiring to overthrow the Republic and institute a monarchy. And for the 'tutorial' purpose of Latin/Italian Era prologues, I decided it was better gameplay and also more historically accurate to hold off the Rebellion functionality until the Early Era.)


The process works like this: if this fight had happened in the Early Provincial Era (or later), Manlius would have returned to your mat still carrying the Legions, one of which would have become a Veteran. (I can't recall if I randomized this or decided it would just be the oldest available Legion, i.e. the one with the lowest number not yet a Veteran.) He would have been given the loyalty chit for the Vet Legion, too.

During the Revolution Phase, Players decide whether they are going to rebel against the Senate or not. Players considering rebellion would poll the non-Veteran Legions to see which of them would agree to join, which is allowed before making a decision.

A returning Victorious Commander, like Manlius, would have a big advantage about this, because he would have first crack at polling the Legions returning with him. (I'm at the office and working from memory so I may have the details a little off, but I'm sure this is the gist.)

Also, a rebelling senator could be assured at being joined by any and all Veteran Legions whose loyalty chit he's holding!

Assuming you don't rebel during the Revolution Phase, the Legions go back to the Active Pool, with any Vet Legions joining a special slot reserved for them. Henceforth, they can be assigned by the Senate to any War, just like any other Legion. However, if Manlius (for example) decided to rebel against the Senate later, he could still call upon his loyalty-chit Vets and they would defect to him automatically.

Starting in the following Turn, during the Forum Phase (if I recall correctly), you would have the option for Manlius to retire any or all of the Vet Legions loyal to him: the ones whose loyalty chits he is holding. (Obviously this is also true for any Player with any number of his senators holding loyalty chits.) Manlius doesn't have to do that on the first Turn following -- he can do it on any following Forum Phase (or whatever Phase it is, but it's either the Forum Phase or the Revenue Phase.)

But if Manlius (for our example) turned in his loyalty chit for that Veteran Legion, then the Vet Legion would be placed back in the Force Pool as a Vet, and Manlius would now flip over his loyalty chit granting him a little extra Popularity and (if I recall correctly) Oratory.

The Senate can still call this Legion out of retirement, but only if no other Legions remain in the Force Pool; and if they do then it comes back as a non-Veteran: the Vet Legion would go from the Force Pool back into the Veteran bag, and its normal Legion chit would go to the Active Pool. (They're out of practice.) I'd have to check to see if they would still have tacit loyalty to Manlius or not, i.e. whether he still keeps his flipped loyalty chit and thus his extra stat bonuses. Possibly he does but only if he didn't vote for them to come out of retirement.

If Manlius himself calls them up again, then he definitely loses his extra stat chit, but I'd have to check whether they come back as Vets or just a normal (now out of practice) Legion.

If the current Manlius dies, then his loyalty chit goes back into the loyalty-chit bag, and the Vet Legion in the Force Pool (or off in a special retirement pool perhaps) gets replaced with its normal Legion status in the Force Pool, effectively resetting it completely.


Again, I'll need to check the rules when I get home, to dial in the details there, but that's pretty close and should get the gist of it.

The short version is that as long as you refuse to rebel against the Republic when you're returning to Rome after a Victory, then the Vets can be given by the Senate to any senator as Force Commander, or sent to a Province for a Garrison for that matter. But your senator still holds their loyalty. This is important even if Manlius never plans to rebel against the Senate, because it prevents Julius over there (as an historically pertinent example ;) ) from even trying to call upon them to rebel against the Republic!

(Speaking of Julius your Militarist senator...  :coolsmiley: When a Player rebels, he can decide how many senators in his Faction will join the rebellion. Not all of them have to, but everyone who does will contribute any mobile forces they govern at their Province -- at least the provincial militias plus I think also any Garrison, or at least try to roll for their allegiance -- plus any Veteran Legions they can call on.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on November 29, 2018, 04:11:20 PM
This is a very intricate game.  Thanks for doing so much work to hold it together. 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 29, 2018, 07:36:36 PM
Y'all are welcome, and thank you all for letting me experiment on you, mua ha ha ha haaa! --- wait, did I say that out loud?^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hplay the game vicariously through you. (Phew, that sounds better.)

But yeah, the game is going to get more intricate as it goes. This is why I figured there needed to be a non-playing umpire or gamemaster, and also a progressing tutorial (which the Birth of the Republic fan expansion serves for nicely).

Clarifying some Veteran rules already mentioned (there are more such rules in the rules, but I was trying to stick with the rules pertinent to Tripoli's question): retired Veteran Legions can be recalled by Tribune Proposal with a successful vote, but only if no other Legions remain in the Force Pool; or they can be recalled at will by a Dictator or by either Consul (Roman or Field) at any time during the Senate. When recalled this way, they do remain Veterans; but regardless of how they are recalled, their loyalty to whichever senator they became Veterans under is sacrificed (and he loses the Pop/Ora bonus). This disconnects them permanently from loyalty to any senator henceforth (as far as I can tell), which also means they can't be retired again. Recalling them to Active service costs 10 Talents, just like Raising a Legion from the Force Pool, but the Republic only pays it from a vote to Raise them. If they are Raised by a Consular or Dictatorial fiat, then the senator raising them must pay the cost from his personal Treasury, with any difference made up by his Faction's Treasury. If that isn't enough, they can't be Raised by that Officer's authoritative recall.


According to my notes, I did decide that the oldest non-Vet of a non-defeated battle would become a Veteran Legion (with some variations in the case of a Civil War).


The only Players who can validly Rebel during the Revolution Phase are ones with a Victorious returning Commander, or with Governors of a Province which has Garrison Legions and/or Provincial militia. This simplifies the question of which units might follow them in rebellion. Veterans will always defect from an army to follow whichever senator controls their allegiance chit, with the subtle consequence that a PlayerX might decide to let PlayerY dice for using X's Vet Legion being commanded currently by Y, and then X could later yank his Vet Legion out from under Y at an opportune moment! (The political screwery in this game, is just boggling...  :smitten: )
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 29, 2018, 08:16:42 PM
TURN SEVEN -- MORTALITY PHASE
-----------------------------

No Immanent Wars to Activate yet.

After thoroughly shuffling, Family #10 is drawn from the Death Bag -- much to the grief of the Populist Faction, and to the Republic as a whole! The immensely Popular Statesman Lucius Junius Brutus, the first Statesman of the Republic (though in this game not the first assigned to a Faction), has died. Though he would have liked to fight in the first Latin War, and held strong Military skill, his Popularity rested in the Civic Arts: primarily in his sponsorship of the first Circus Maximus of the Republic, as well as aiding Aurelius in organizing a Gladiatorial honorarium.

Brutus thus does not survive to "retire" at the end of the Italian Era, and so also his preparations to train a Junian to inherit from him have not come to fruition. His statistic buffs are deleted, and his card permanently discards. The Junius family Senator card goes to the Curia.

This is a hideous blow for the Populist Faction, which only had two senators among its chief representatives so far. But there is a little good news. The Juniads are a politically active family already -- his family card was under Brutus -- and Malize made Brutus his Faction Leader. Consequently, the Juniads rapidly promoted one of their scions as the new patrician of the family, and ensured his senatorial seat, so that they would not risk losing Leadership of the Faction: the Junius family Senator returns directly and immediately to Malize from the Curia, as the new Faction Leader.

Still, it's a grievous blow. The freshly risen Juniad only has a Mil 1; Ora 2; Loy 8; and Inf 3. The Faction's Vote tally has divided by half, down to only 9. And their total Influence has dropped to 6.

This ends the Mortality Phase.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 29, 2018, 09:20:29 PM
TURN SEVEN -- REVENUE PHASE
---------------------------

Segment one, the Faction incomes:

I.I.'s Aristocrats start with 6 Faction cash; +0 Personal cash; +3 +2 senator incomes; +5 knight incomes; +2 +2 Tax Farmings; +3 Harbor Fees
= new total 23 Faction cash.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/238/sE6rFK.jpg)

Tripoli's Militarists start with 15 Faction cash; +15 Personal cash; +3 +2 senator incomes; +5 knight incomes; +2 +2 Tax Farmings
= new total 44 Faction cash.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/9562/69xjJd.jpg)

The Frog's Plutocrats start with 0 Faction cash; 18 Personal cash; +5 (Plutocrat ability) +2 senator incomes; (+3 +2) x2 (Faction ability) knight incomes; 1d6 roll = 6 PontMax income; +0 Concessions
= new total 41 Faction cash.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7758/VPIGXM.jpg)

AzTank's Conservatives start with 31 Faction cash; +4 Personal cash; +3 +2 senator incomes; +3 knight incomes; +0 Concessions
= new total 43 Faction cash.
(He is required to keep a minimum reserve of 12 Talents in Faction cash this Turn, in accordance with the Aristo-Conservation Contract. He may transfer 12 Talents to the Aristocrats at any time to fulfill this part of his Contract. If he does so during the Revenue Phase, the cash will arrive in I.I.'s Faction Treasury immediately.)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/5163/euJRx5.jpg)

Malize's Populists start with 4 Faction cash; +0 Personal cash; +3 +1 senator incomes; +2 knight incomes; +3 Mining management
= new Faction Total 9 cash. THIRTEEN cash!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/3710/fBylKN.jpg)

Erax's Progressives start with 2 Faction cash; +15 Personal cash; +3 +1 senator incomes; +2 knight incomes; +2 +2 Tax Farmings
= new Faction Total 27 cash.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/5925/hQt16s.jpg)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 29, 2018, 09:21:33 PM
All Concessions trigger minor corruptions as normal.

Players may now distribute their Faction cash, and choose whether one or more of their senators will donate to the Republic's Treasury. As a reminder, each senator earns 1 influence if giving 10 to 24 talents; 3 Influence if 25 to 49 talents.

(Rome currently has 116 Talents, with a coming income of 40 more Talents and 10 Legions x -2 Talents upkeep, also another -10 for the ongoing 2nd Latin War.)

Players should also plan forward for persuading knights (5 Talents gets an automatic knight); Sponsoring Games (7, 11, or 18 Talents buys 1, 2, or 3 Popularity with equivalent Unrest reductions); and bribing or counter-bribing any new family Senators who may arrive in the Curia (from personal or from Faction Treasuries respectively).
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on November 29, 2018, 09:26:23 PM
I will give 25 to Acilius, 6 to the other two senators, and leave the rest in faction cash.  Acilius will donate all 25 and thereby get the 3 influence. 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on November 30, 2018, 01:41:59 PM
PS: My condolences to the populists for their loss.  Let us know if there is anything we can do to help in your time of need. 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on November 30, 2018, 04:17:39 PM
5 to Valerius, 10 to Cornelius, 2 to Cincinnatus.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 30, 2018, 05:46:07 PM
Plutocrats and Aristocrats processed.

Republic cash up 25 to 141, along the way, thanks to Acilius, who gained 3 Influence for his donation (Plutocrat total up to 41 -- which ties with the Aristocrats currently, deactivating their activist-knight ability.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 01, 2018, 05:27:07 AM
17 on Flaminius, 8 on Plautius. To speed things along, if I'm not here for the Forum Phase Plautius will spend 3 on a Knight roll.

As I understand the setup, Fabius will not be up for persuasion this turn but we still have some senator cards lurking in the Era Deck, right?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 01, 2018, 06:44:11 AM
5 to Julius, 25 to Aelius, the rest (14)  to faction cash. Julius buys a knight, Aelius donates the 25 to the treasury for the +3 influence
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 01, 2018, 08:58:41 AM
Quote from: Erax on December 01, 2018, 05:27:07 AM
As I understand the setup, Fabius will not be up for persuasion this turn but we still have some senator cards lurking in the Era Deck, right?

I haven't looked recently -- one or two were dealt out to you when you joined, actually! Then we caught up with the next one last Turn. There are probably a couple more in the remaining 11 cards, though we'll have shifted the last cards to the start of the Early Provincial Era sometime in the final 6.

This is a point on which the prologue/tutorial Eras suffer: all the families in the game are numbered, and they all start in the "Early" Era (because that's how the game was originally designed), so to introduce new families would require giving them numbers beyond 30. But that would make them 'later' in the emergence of families than the Late Provincial Era! -- and the game has mechanics built around how relatively old families are. (The most important such mechanic being the ultimate tie-breaker: if all else fails, the Player with the oldest family involved in the dispute, i.e. the lowest family number, wins the tie.)

Consequently, the Birth of the Republic designer had to spread Early Era family Senators through the two prologue Eras, while also leaving some for the Early Era itself. This naturally lowers their "density" of emergence in any one Era. He compensated a little by finding a few historical characters who could show up before their families became otherwise very politically important, and making them pre-Early Statesmen. (I'm not where I can verify right now, but I seem to recall AzTank having one of those from family #24, which won't show up until the Middle Era.)

I haven't gone into details about this because I didn't want preliminary expectations of the game to color strategies. But...

[spoiler]as noted in the "Sabrerules" game flowchart I created (which needs a new update, though not on this topic, the most recent edition posted in the Infothread being Oct 5th, note to self... ;) ), we aren't going to see families #19 or #20, the final Early Families, until sometime in the Early Era, and possibly not until the transition into the Middle Era.

In effect the other 18 families got dispersed like this: #1 thru #8 got randomly dealt out to the first four players (I.I., Tripoli, the Frog, and AzTank). The remaining families from #9 through #18 got randomly shuffled, and then half of those (= 5 families) were dealt out face down and got shuffled into the Latin Era. Those are now all out on the board, of course.

The remaining 5 shuffled pre-#19 families got shuffled into the Italian Era. The first one of those (maybe two, I'm not where I can check my notes, but I think it was only one) was dealt out to you (Erax) when you joined, because there weren't any more family Senators remaining in the Latin Era. (Your other starting Senator was the last one in the Latin Era, or the 2nd one in the Italian; I seem to recall the former.)

We've had one new family show up since starting the Italian Era, the Aelians, picked up by Tripoli.

By deduction, that means two or three (I think probably three) families should be in the remaining 11 cards. But there's about a 50/50 chance that one or more of these ended up in the final 6 cards, and so will transfer forward into the start of the Early Era Deck with families #19 and #20.

This also means that under no circumstances will we be seeing more than 20 family Senators until after the start of the Middle Era -- though we may see one or two more Statesmen popping in before their families do. But I think I recall that such Statesmen, who show up an Era or two before their families, and so act like temporary families, are restricted to the pre-Early decks. (This is why it's not really a good idea for AzTank to give chits to Spurius over there: his family can't possibly show up until the Middle or maybe even the start of the Late Era, and so he can't possibly pass them down when he retires, which will surely be either this or next Turn! -- there's a decent chance we'll trigger the Early Era late in the coming Forum Phase.)[/spoiler]

(I've hidden this information behind the spoiler tag in case some Players don't want to know how the family sorting works through the Early Era.)

Now, that doesn't mean the families are locked into their Factions, necessarily! For example, when y'all executed Fabius the Pont Max, his family card went to the Curia, from which the Fabians will randomly respawn into the Forum like a newly drawn family Senator. (This chance happens during the Population Phase, just before the Senate opens.) At that point Players will have an opportunity (during any subsequent Forum Phases) to Persuade the new Fabian Senator to join your Faction. The more families are active already, the more chance an active family will be drawn from the death bag. (The Progressives themselves are lagging behind partly due to the bad luck of this happening twice with Flaminius! -- who was fortunately the Faction Leader and so whose new Senator bounced right back to your Faction after dumping his chits.)

And Players might start using their high-influence senators, perhaps with lots of personal cash, to Persuade away senators from other Players! -- which is horribly competitive and kind of evil, but fully legal. ;)


Anyway, I'll process yours and Tripoli's once I get back from work today. (Seasonal overtime is in full open throttle.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 01, 2018, 09:30:34 AM
AzTank sends by chat that he'll give 2 to each of his guys.

This leaves only Malize to distribute.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 01, 2018, 11:34:36 AM
Malize should have 13 cash to distribute, by the way.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 01, 2018, 02:52:37 PM
Double-checked and validated! -- thanks!

Can't fix the snapshot yet, but I've fixed the print entry. Will be back home soon.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 01, 2018, 03:56:25 PM
Malize's mat now fixed:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/1603/Flx3Pc.jpg)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 02, 2018, 10:23:03 AM
Sorry all, busy !

7 to Aurelius for games in honor of Brutus
2 to junius for knight
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 02, 2018, 10:59:44 AM
No problem, that's the big advantage to asynch games!

Were you intending to keep 4? I only ask because I had accidentally left 4 out of your original tally for an incorrect total of 9, and I didn't want you to think you couldn't buy an automatic knight. (Which would be 7 for Aurelius' games; 5 to Junius for a definite knight; and 2 kept over.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 02, 2018, 11:09:36 AM
Keeping in mind he might adjust that post-hoc for the Forum Phase later, that finishes segment 2.

Segment 3, Republic Income: 166 starting cash; +40 normal income; -10 2nd Latin War; -20 for ten Active Legions; no Land Bills; no specials = new Republic Total 176 talentons!  <:-)

(By comparison if y'all hadn't had four Allied Enthusiasms so far, you'd be at 76 Talentons. Or possibly much worse, since there would have been some other random Events instead.  ^-^ )

This ends the Revenue Phase for Turn Seven. Forum Phase starts next!
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 02, 2018, 11:18:24 AM
TURN SEVEN -- FORUM PHASE
-------------------------

Dice functionality isn't back yet for the Grogheads forum (though I've started a planned twice-monthly request reminder yesterday. ;) ) So I'll have to roll 'manually' on the board.

The two Drought cards are removed from the Forum, and won't be replaced (since the Pleb Revolt was settled last turn). Spolia Opima remains.

The highest ranking officer in Rome is the Roman Consul Appius Claudius of the Plutocrats, so the Frog will get the first 'round'.

The Plutocrats roll 7, a random Event. 3d6 total of 5 is a Drought. This will add a point of Unrest in the next Phase. Good thing y'all settled the Pleb Revolt last Turn!

I haven't received instructions yet from the Frog about which senator wants to try for a knight and how much he'll spend doing so. (Or about whether he'll try to persuade away someone else's senator!)

So I'll pause here until I receive instructions.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 02, 2018, 11:31:36 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on December 02, 2018, 10:59:44 AM
No problem, that's the big advantage to asynch games!

Were you intending to keep 4? I only ask because I had accidentally left 4 out of your original tally for an incorrect total of 9, and I didn't want you to think you couldn't buy an automatic knight. (Which would be 7 for Aurelius' games; 5 to Junius for a definite knight; and 2 kept over.)

Yeah keep the remainder.  2 seems a decent gamble
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 02, 2018, 07:35:46 PM
The Frog sends by Hangout chat: Appius will try for a Knight and will spend as much cash as he has to get one, up to the amount that maximizes his chance to get one. No other actions.

Appius pays 5 of his 6 cash for an automatic 4th knight. Total votes up to 15.

The Conservatives roll 5+5=10, so draw a Scenario card. It's a red-text Faction card, which I've sent him a p-mail about. Nothing AzTank can afford would affect anyone else on the board so, while he still should tell me about his knight persuasion attempt, I'll continue on.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 02, 2018, 08:05:54 PM
The Populists roll 5+6=11, so draw a card. The Calpurnicus family sends their first scion to the Senate!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/1973/D9eldJ.jpg)

Malize's best persuader would be Aurelius, but the chances are so poor as to be easily made impossible by other Players counter-bribing. 3 Ora + 3 Inf -9 Loyalty = -3. Aure would have to spend 5 of his 7 personal cash just to get the adjusted base number up to 2, the minimum possible win on a 2d6 (i.e. 1 chance in 12). All 7 cash would still only be a 4 or less to win.

I am provisionally assuming then that Malize's original plan continues: Aurelius spends all 7 cash for some level-1 games in honor of the departed Brutus. Unrest goes down 1 to 1. Aur's Pop goes up 1 to 3. The Populist special ability spawns another 1 Pop for Junius, up to 1. Junius spends all 2 cash to gamble for a knight, normally 6-2=4 or more on a 1d6 to win -- but he rolls a 1.  :'( New vote tally goes up 2 Popularity (by Populist special ability) to 11.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 02, 2018, 08:25:31 PM
The Progressives roll 3+2=5 so draw a card. It's a red-text Faction card, so he draws it to his hand. I've sent him a p-mail about it.

Plautius sacrifices 2 of his 8 cash to roll for a knight, so 4 or more on a 1d6: but he also rolls a 1.  :'(

Erax's Flaminius has some plausible options on Persuading a senator, so I'll pause here to let Erax ponder strategy.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 02, 2018, 08:39:47 PM
Let me add that if anyone is plotting (by which I mean I.I. or Tripoli, who will be the last round this Turn) to try persuading a senator, and wants to set up conditions and instructions for me to process automatically, send me a p-mail.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 03, 2018, 09:32:03 AM
I will definitely Persuade Calpurnicus but I need to check some stuff, give me an hour or so.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 03, 2018, 10:51:14 AM
OK, I'll spend my 'secret persuasion card' and Flaminius will spend 11 Talents (the most I can spend that still improves my chances) to try to persuade Calpurnicus.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 03, 2018, 01:52:13 PM
Dice roller has not returned to the forum, so I'll have to wait until around 5pm this afternoon my time (about 4 hours from now).
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 03, 2018, 06:40:11 PM
Resolving! -- Erax plays his hidden "Blackmail" Intrigue card to the discard pile.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/7742/i3T3da.jpg)

This is a cross-bolt that should make his opponents glad he spent it now, because he could have trolled an opponent awfully hard with it by setting up a situation where if he won then he got your senator, but if he lost then your senator lost 2d6 Pop and Influence! (I'm unsure if the rules specify one or two separate rolls for that loss.)

Having preliminarily nixed the possibility of counterbribing him, Flaminius spends 11 Talents for the maximum chance to persuade Calpurnicus: 9 or less to win on a 2d6. He rolls 3 and a 6 = 9! -- cruising just under the edge of an automatic loss, but he picks up the Senator! Normal vote tally up to 7; total Influence up to 9. Cal brings his new personal Treasury of 11 cash with him.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 03, 2018, 06:46:28 PM
Backtracking, AzTank specifies (by p-mail) that he's going to have Spurius be who tries for the knight, sacrificing both his Talents. That means a 4 or greater on a 1d6 will win... and he rolls a 4! That's Spurius' first minion, and the Faction normal vote tally goes up to 13.

AzTank also chooses to fulfill his Contracted payment now by sending 12 cash from his Faction Treasury to the Aristocrat Treasury. Since this isn't the Revenue Phase, however, the Talents will be delayed arriving until next Turn's income.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 03, 2018, 07:01:20 PM
I.I.'s Aristocrats roll 5+1=6, so not a random event, and draws a red-text Faction card to his hand face down. I have sent him a p-mail about the card already.

Since I don't have any instructions (I think?) from I.I. yet, I'll pause here.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 03, 2018, 07:04:47 PM
To clarify a point some Players may be wondering about: there are 7 cards remaining in the Italian Era, and only Tripoli remains (to possibly draw it I mean. I.I. still has to make Faction choices this Turn.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 03, 2018, 07:10:12 PM
Valerius will dump 5 on a knight.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 03, 2018, 07:31:24 PM
Also Plautius was going to spend 3 on a knight.

And a random question: if the new Senator hadn't been scooped up by anyone, could he have died if his mortality chit came up next turn? The rules say Senators 'in play' can die, but I'm not sure if an unaligned Senator in the Forum counts as in play or not.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 03, 2018, 07:45:01 PM
Opps! -- I got distracted by the huge win of Calpurnicus!

Plautius of the Progressives sacrifices 3 of his 6 cash to roll for a knight, needing a 3 or better on a 1d6 -- and rolls a 4, gaining his first minion. Normal vote tally up to 8.

Valerius sacrifices all 5 of his Talents for an automatic 2nd minion. Normal vote tally up to 13.

Tripoli's Militarists roll 5+5=10, not a random Event, and he draws the Quinctian family (#18) to the Forum! In effect this means that Cincinnatus of the Aristocrats has survived long enough (perhaps with some Juniors in there quietly inheriting his training) for his family more generally to become politically important. Consequently, I.I. automatically picks up this card to place under Cinc! -- if Cincinnatus lives long enough to retire (which is practically certain at this point) then, being a pre-Early Statesman, he'll pass down all his pieces to the family Senator.

Per prior instructions, Julius of the Militarists sacrifices all 5 of his cash for a 3rd headquarters minion, bumping his Military skill to 7 (per Militarist special ability). Vote tally goes to 15.

This ends the Forum Phase.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 03, 2018, 08:00:04 PM
TURN SEVEN -- POPULATION PHASE
------------------------------

Time to get ready for the Senate!

All senators with PontMax and above get Major Marker. (In effect this is all three Plutocrat senators plus Manlius of the Militarists.)

No threatened Concessions yet, nor any destroyed Concessions in the Curia; nor any Enemy Leaders.

There is a family Senator in the Curia, however, waiting to respawn! Normally this happens on a 1d6 >=5, but as long as Statesman Appius is active (which won't be for much longer) then the roll only needs to be >=3. The Fabians roll a 1, however, so are unable to promote a scion this Turn.

Public Unrest is at level 1, +1 for the Unprosecuted 2nd Latin War, +1 for the Drought. New Unrest = 3.

The Highest Ranking Available Officer is Roman Consul Statesman Appius Claudius of the Plutocrats (soon to retire). He opens the Senate with this Turn's State of the Republic address. Popularity 2 - Unrest 3 + 3d6 (3+3+1) = 6 -- OUCH! +4 to Unrest Level! Unrest goes up to 7!

This ends the Population Phase and starts the Senate Phase.


I will post snapshots and Republic stats next. The first Mandatory Business meanwhile is, as usual, Proposal and election of two new Consuls.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 03, 2018, 08:48:49 PM
Catchup snapshots of the Player mats:

I.I.'s Aristocrats trail slightly behind the Plutocrats in raw power (Influence + votes), and as long as his total Influence remains less than first place then his activist knights can't each bring a second vote. Moreover, he and AzTank have been politically outmaneuvered by the Frog, into being a minority bloc despite their relative strengths! How long that will last, who can tell? The Aristocrats remain potent, and despite naming himself "Incompetent Idiot" I.I. has played a clever game so far. He's got decent cash reserves, two unplayed cards, and a well-developed pre-Early Statesman who is about to pass down a secured inheritance. His grip on 2nd place is tenuous, but he could go up as well as down.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/2236/YD37Mi.jpg)


Tripoli's Militarists have shot up thanks to recent wars and political gamesmanship! -- tying the Frog for total normal votes, and jumping hard on total influence. Their cash is a little thin for a top Faction right now however, and they still lack the punch of the top Influences. But they've got a more secure stable of senators with more to offer than the Conservatives' (currently) decreasing relevance.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/2329/de5ABT.jpg)


The Frog's Plutocrats scored a strategic political coup last Turn in swinging himself from 3rd place in a coterie, over to leader of a larger coterie -- and one which needs him a little more than he needs some of them (perhaps)! No one is likely to soon forget him arranging the execution of one of his prior allies; but neither can anyone discount his power, cleverness, and income generation abilities: he may not have a lot of cash at the moment, but that's because he has spent it improving his position. How much of the senatorial office power he'll be able to maintain this Turn remains to be seen.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/1738/qDOs7q.jpg)


AzTank's Conservatives, thanks to the judicial execution (or murder) of his Pontifex Maximus during the last Senate, has dropped into a close fourth places among the top four -- a positioned weakened further by the fact that Latin Era Statesman Spurius must be retiring very soon, with no heir. Under the circumstances, the newer two Factions will start overtaking him. (He also still owes the Aristocrats some judicial defense effort by Contract.) He'll need some better luck and canny political strategy -- or bad luck among his former peers -- to be jockeying for first place again! But he does still have two unplayed cards in his hand...
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/9599/bpmj0Z.jpg)


Malize's Populists suffered a massive back-stumble this past Turn, with the death of his Faction Leader Statesman before his family could inherit (at the start of the Early Era) -- though at least he did get his family Senator back immediately. He'll need a while to rebuild, but he also has 3 unplayed Faction cards on his wing. And while he and Erax equal the combined votes and influence, and while Erax wildly exceeds him in cash, for the Senate Phase his total votes capable of being deployed on any topic pro or con, remains the slightest deciding edge between them. For now.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/2208/AMsd4q.jpg)


Erax's Progressives have made solid gains this past Turn, but he still necessarily lags behind the other Players in 6th place. His activist voting will become more sought after as a political tool in competitions as his power increases, however, and he still retains 3 unknown faction cards in his hand. Moreover, with his very solid cash reserves he could soon pull ahead of Malize -- or, with bad luck elsewhere, even higher!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/2127/ZmkehQ.jpg)


As for the Republic's stats:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/5743/BoWBtC.jpg)

The 2nd Latin War remains Active on the border and Unprosecuted for now, though its relatively weak land power and disproportionate rewards for the Republic's growth will surely make it both a prime target and a politically chaotic struggle for who gets to take Rome's 10 Active Legions and go squash it!

Rome's income is 40 Talents currently, with a high watermark Treasury of 176. Unrest however bubbles at another high watermark of 7! The Spolia Opima remains unclaimed, but with no Enemy Leader this Turn it will remain so.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 03, 2018, 08:59:27 PM
Aside from my commentary on current Player strengths and weaknesses, two more factors should be considered:

1.) There are still 6 cards remaining in the Italian Deck, which means the Early Provincial Era cannot start this Turn with the next Early card played face up. (I double checked: there must be 5 or fewer remaining.) Next Turn, however, is almost guaranteed the start of the next Era (unless I roll 6 sevens in a row), and all that it entails.

2.) Tribunes may now be played by any Player at will. Doing so will discard each one permanently out of the game, but you'll be able to make a Proposal or to veto (most) other votes (whether Proposal or Prosecution). We have never played with Tribunes active yet, and this will be a serious change to the game's balance! Playing a Tribune still needs to follow Mandatory Business order, however: someone right now can make a Proposal for Consuls, but not for Other Business (yet) like stripping Acilius of his PontMax office; nor for other valid Mandatory Business like Proposing a Censor; much less for currently invalid Business such as Proposing a Dictator (or a Consul for Life)!

Players get to temporarily be a Presiding Magistrate (or even a little more powerful with a veto). Not to go around the procedural rules.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on December 04, 2018, 08:18:38 PM
Ok.  So, the version of our coalition deal that I found for the second turn was that I am to propose Acilius and Flaminius for consuls and they will propose Claudius for Censor on condition that he not prosecute The Plutocrats, The Militarists or the Progressives.

So, that is my proposal.  If they will agree to propose Claudius, I will propose Acilius and Flaminius for consuls.

I will allow some time for discussion/response before we vote on this proposal in case I got the deal wrong. 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 04, 2018, 08:38:43 PM
We agree.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 04, 2018, 08:53:17 PM
The militarists agree
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 04, 2018, 10:26:54 PM
Note that contextually, the Frog isn't making a "Proposal" yet as Presiding Magistrate. He's offering a Contract, which I would automatically process when the terms come up.

Tripoli and Erax have agreed to the Contract.

It is thus valid (I'll name it tomorrow, or someone else can do so -- need to go to bed early). Anyone else can join it as they wish upon their own declaration.

Be aware however that, according to my calculations, you'll still need one more Faction to agree to your coming proposals (by Contract now, or on a case-by-case basis along the way), in order to safely carry the majority. Malize may not have recovered fully yet, and I.I.'s knights can't currently vote more than their usual extra; but together with AzTank's activist votes (which automatically trigger when voting against any Proposition) they could hold a majority against your Contract.

(I think. I'm a little bleery and need to hit the sack.  O:-) )
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 05, 2018, 08:02:26 AM
I should perhaps also mention, since this is the second Turn it has shown up: as far as I know, a Contract not to Prosecute senators in your own Faction is (mostly) meaningless for two reasons.

1.) As far as I know, there is no profitable benefit for a Censor to launch a Prosecution of one of his fellow Faction senators. (Except for some loopy political gamesmanship perhaps, where one of your senators was contracted to do something and you don't want to do it so, whoops, he's being Major Prosecuted now, trolololol!  >:D But even then, sacrificing one of your own senators doesn't seem likely to be worth the benefit.) Even the Progressives, a Faction who (at least nominally) gets special abilities aimed at reforming the Senate from corruption and helping out the people, doesn't usually profit on the net balance by voting against their own senator's Acquittal in a Prosecution: the extra Influence gained from doing so isn't likely to offset the losses from a Conviction. (Though again I could imagine some loopy ways to exploit that, like using it to edge one of his other senators over the minimum Influence necessary to be automatically appo.inted Consul for Life!)


2.) There is only one situation, aside from a Contracted promise to do so (which a later Contract would not be able to negate), where a Censor would be forced to investigate any of his fellow Faction senators for corruption: investigating whether a Faction Leader conspired to send an assassinating senator who got caught in the attempt. In that case, the Censor might even have to put himself on trial! But for game balance purposes, that can't be Contracted against. Otherwise the first thing any Player would do when gaining a new senator, would be to publicly Contract with his fellow Faction senators that none of them will ever investigate their Faction Leader for conspiracy to assassinate! Similarly, Contracting not to Prosecute the Progressives this Turn, will not let off the Plutocrats from necessarily investigating the Progressive Faction Leader on a conspiracy to assassinate.


So, while it isn't invalid for the Frog to Contract not to Prosecute his own Plutocrat senators, it's kind of  " ::) :P ;) ". It doesn't really mean anything.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 05, 2018, 06:06:55 PM
I'll agree even though I wasn't included in the immunity, I'll just take Ethel's word.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 05, 2018, 07:18:37 PM
The Frog offers what I shall call the Seventh Turn Co-operative Immunity Contract. Specifically:

1.) Appius Claudius the Roman Consul, acting as PM, will propose Acilius (of his own Plutocrats) and Flaminius (of the Progressives) as Consuls this Turn, which any Contracted Players will agree to vote for.

2.) The new Consuls will agree to Propose Appius Claudius as Censor this Turn, which any Contracted Players will agree to vote for.

3.) Claudius will agree not to Prosecute any Progressive or Militarist senators this Turn if they join the Contract and vote him in as Censor. (Claudius also agrees not to Prosecute any of his own Plutocratic senators, for whatever that's worth.  ::) )


The Progressives and the Militarists agree to join the Contract. The Populists also agree to join the Contract, even though Malize realizes no immunity to Prosecution is granted to his senators by the Contract.

Other Players may also join along the way, but the terms of the Contract will not be negotiable henceforth.


I acknowledge the public Contract to be in operation, and I will process it automatically as we reach the appropriate stages.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 05, 2018, 08:39:49 PM
Mandatory Business begins with an automatic resolution of the first term of the 7thTurnCoIm. Appius Proposes Flaminius and Acilius as Consuls. Plutocrats, Populists, Progressives, and Militarists all vote for. This is a decisive majority even if the Aristocrat activist ability opposes, and there are no benefits for remaining Players to vote against, so the Proposal passes.

Erax (for Flaminius) and the Frog (for Acilius) must decide among themselves who will be Roman and Field Consuls. Influence gain is +4 (for Italian Era Consuls) either way. Acilius has a Mil of 2; Flam has a Mil of 4. Being only family Senators, neither one has special abilities such as avoiding D/S results for particular Wars.

The 2nd Latin War only has a Land Strength of 4, and no Leader. D4, S18 are unavoidable but very low chances. Winning the Latin War will help Unrest a little, as well as permanently increasing the Republic's capabilities (and eliminate the ongoing cash drain). Ten Legions (1st thru 10th inclusively) are Active.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 06, 2018, 09:05:48 AM
Flaminius accepts the role of Field Consul.

If/when we make an agreement for next turn's elections, however, it is important to keep in mind that 21 Influence is an important limit - at that level a Senator may be nominated Consul for Life, though they still must win a vote (and I can't imagine any other faction voting in favor). In any event, keeping everyone below this level would avoid much infighting.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 06, 2018, 09:21:33 AM
Also, next Turn is almost guaranteed to start the Early Provincial Era, where election for CfL becomes possible.

As Erax notes, this basically requires the Player with that senator to be able to outvote all other Factions by himself, which is hard to arrange (though increasingly more easy as the game goes on!) So this early in the game it isn't too problematic -- though then again, the nominee always adds his own influence as votes!  :o

The more dangerous limit is 35 Influence -- because starting next Turn (most likely), the senator with that much influence automatically gets appointed Consul for Life.


There is however a way around this, which is not forbidden by the rules explicitly: a Player may at any time Contract to never have X-senator be Consul for Life.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on December 06, 2018, 08:34:18 PM
Flaminius to field consul so he can prosecute the war?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 07, 2018, 04:09:42 AM
Yes, his Mil 4 is not too bad.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 07, 2018, 07:42:15 AM
My apologies for the delay -- 'work' work at the end of the year is hectic and last night I had to stay after overtime until about bedtime! Such is the life of a production manager.

I still won't be back at the house for another ten hours (at least), but I'll see what I can process here by text. (And catch up on the board later.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 07, 2018, 07:57:40 AM
Note: I'll have to update the Influence gains officially this evening, but Acilius and Flaminius will both pick up 4 Influence, as well as their Faction Totals. This means the Plutocrats are edging out the Aristocrats even farther, so there can still be no activist x2 knight voting for the Aristos (only the normal knight voting).

Okay, already have a PontMax; can't use a Dictator yet; thus also not a Master of Horse; thus next Mandatory Business is Censor election.

In accordance with the 7thTurnCoIm, Acilius Proposes Appius Claudius as Censor, and everyone involved in the Contract votes for this, which is very much a majority of Senate votes.

ApClaud becomes Censor, and gains... however much the Censor gains in the Italian Era, 4 Influence I think.

The Presiding Magistrate post shifts temporarily over to ApClaud for the Prosecution segment. In accordance with the final condition of the 7thTurnCoIm, ApClaud is forbidden to investigate any senator from his own Plutocrats  ::) ::) ::) , nor from the Militarists nor the Progressives.

This leaves over as valid targets (clockwise from Player One around the table):

From the Aristocrats, Valerius for two Minor Suspicions, and their Faction Leader Cornelius for a Minor Suspicion.

From the Conservatives: no one. (None of his senators held major office last Turn, except for the now-dead PontMax, and he has never managed to secure a Concession.)

From the Populists (who are not exempted by the terms of the Contract even though Malize joined it): Aurelius for a Minor Suspicion.


A "Minor" Conviction will cost the Defendant up to 5 Influence and 5 Popularity, and any Concessions he has will go directly to the Forum to be voted on for re-assignment. The Prosecutor will gain half of any lost Influence.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 07, 2018, 08:21:58 AM
Meanwhile, since Tribunes are now a "thing"...  :coolsmiley: let me clarify:

1.) Tribunes CAN (normally) veto automatic procession of Contracted choices, in any situations where a veto would normally work (e.g. Dictator Proposals cannot be vetoed). This includes the PontMax veto ability once per Turn. The main exception is that Players who have Contracted to make choices, cannot throw vetos to get out of their Contracted obligations. (e.g. if Malize had a Tribune, he could not use it to veto his obligated votes for ApClaud as Censor.)

2.) Tribunes CAN (normally) introduce Proposals in the middle of a Contracted series of events that I'm automatically processing, so long as those Proposals would be normally valid.

3.) Vetos used to break Contracted terms from being fulfilled, will also break subsequent obligations to fulfill terms. This means I will no longer automatically process subsequent terms of the Contract. The Contracting Players can still voluntarily fulfill the subsequent terms, but they'll have to do so 'manually' (or tell me ahead of time what they plan to do when-if-ever those situations come up.)

4.) Due to the nature of asynchronous play, I will allow a reasonable level of lag to retroactively throw Tribunes for vetos or Proposals, even though this will definitely allow Players to spoof gameplay to some extent. It's the only fair way I can think of to strike a balance between strategic play of Tribunes and moving the game along promptly. I'm willing to consider arguments for alternate procedures.

Having said that, any Players with Tribunes should be planning ahead as far as possible based on what they can reasonably expect to happen, and alerting me of any preparations they want to make, in order for the smoothest strategic play under the circumstances.  O:-)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 07, 2018, 08:30:14 AM
As a practical exercise, this means that henceforth until the end of the game, someone might p-mail me with instructions like this: "If the Censor decides to Prosecute my senator X this Turn, for which I'll make a Popular Appeal by the way, and if before the final 2d6 roll it looks like I have more than a 30% chance of being Convicted, then I'll play my Tribune to veto the Prosecution."
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 07, 2018, 12:47:57 PM
Whoops, I need to correct a vote tally, though it won't affect the voting results so far.

Quote from: JasonPratt on December 02, 2018, 08:25:31 PM
The Progressives roll 3+2=5 so draw a card. It's a red-text Faction card, so he draws it to his hand. I've sent him a p-mail about it.

Plautius sacrifices 2 of his 8 cash to roll for a knight, so 4 or more on a 1d6: but he also rolls a 1.  :'(


Erax reminded me afterward that he had planned to spend 3 not 2 cash. I forgot I had already rolled, and so I thought I had simply forgotten the roll due to the winning of Erax's 3rd senator Family.

Consequently, I spent 3 (as instructed) of Plautius' 6 remaining cash (2 from 8 being 6) on what I thought was his knight roll, and happened to win it that time -- but the roll was illegitimate.

The correct procedure and result should have been: Plautius sacrificed 3 of his 8 cash during his knight roll, but (still) lost with a 1. He should have 5 (not 3) Talents remaining in his personal Treasury, but one less knight (and the Progressives should have one less normal vote total.)

I'll adjust tonight.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 07, 2018, 08:03:58 PM
Okay, let's catch me up.

Per Erax's reminder, he spent 3 (not 2) of his 8 Talents and rolled a 1, so Plautius does not in fact have a knight, and the Progressive normal vote tally is still 7. But Plautius does have 5 Talents not 3. Now fixed.

Flaminius accepts the office of Field Consul, +4 Influence, up from 5 to 9, bringing the Progressive total to 13. (Hopefully this won't draw the attention of the skanky ones again AHEM I MEANT THE "KINDLY" ONES!!  :hide: )

The Pontifex Maximus Acilius takes over leadership of the Senate as the Roman Consul, and as Presiding Magistrate. His influence also goes up 4, from 12 to 16, and the Plutocrat total influence goes up to 46. (For such an unassuming little blob of a senator, the first Acilius has had a varied and interesting career since becoming politically important enough to notice!

In accordance with the Contract, the Contracted Factions Propose and elect former Consul Appius Claudius as Censor, for what will surely be his final office (since the pre-Early Statesmen will, with all practical certainty, be retiring sometime next Turn.) This bumps him up another 4 Influence (for Italian Era Censors) from 15 to 19, and the Plutocrat total Influence goes up to 50.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 07, 2018, 08:10:14 PM
ApClaud temporarily assumes the post of Presiding Magistrate in order to consider investigating suspected corruption (among a list of valid suspects noted earlier, after Contracted invulernabilities are deducted).

But the Frog sends a message to me by hangout chat, that he will pass investigating anyone for Prosecution this Turn.

The PM post returns to Acilius, and all suspicions are eliminated for the rest of the Turn. This also completes all terms of the 7thTurnCoIm, which thus expires.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 07, 2018, 08:12:48 PM
This finishes all Mandatory Business.

Other senatorial Business may now proceed.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 07, 2018, 08:26:37 PM
I suggest we send Flaminius out with all the Legions to squash the Second Latin War.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 07, 2018, 08:32:04 PM
Doing so will definitely improve the Republic's strength going into the Early Era.  O0
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 08, 2018, 10:02:20 AM
By hangout chat last night, the Frog Proposes that Flaminius be sent to War against the 2nd Latin War, with all 10 Legions.

I could almost assume unamity, but just in case...

(Plutocrats and Progressives are definitely voting for.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 08, 2018, 02:47:38 PM
Militarists vote for
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 08, 2018, 03:13:04 PM
I'll vote for.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 08, 2018, 03:33:25 PM
And that tips the Proposal into the majority for.

Flam leaves Rome, reducing the Progressive normal vote tally to 5. (I may have reduced Total Influence previously when senators left Rome, but if so I shouldn't have done that.)

I don't know what other Other Business would be usefully done this Turn, but I'll start processing the Combat Phase (which shouldn't be affected by any other business) and once the Frog (or a Tribune!) closes the Senate then I'll post the results and move into the Revolution Phase.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 08, 2018, 05:04:20 PM
Okay, an hour and a half later, I've finished a lot of processing, and I can't figure out why anyone would play a Tribune to affect anything in the Senate at this point, so I'm provisionally ruling the Senate Phase closed, and moving on.

TURN SEVEN -- COMBAT PHASE
--------------------------

Flaminius of the Progressives vs the 2nd Latin War!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/6012/bQpWsi.jpg)

The Kindly Ones, attracted by his bravery, decide to tag along after the latest Flaminian boy...

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/5981/bNQAKB.jpg)

Not really helping!

Number of Legions: 10
Flam's Mil skill: +4 limit
War's Land Strength: -4
DRM = +10

3d6 roll = 3+4+3=10 (not a D/S result) +10 DRM = 20, total Victory no losses!

Unrest -1 down to 6. Putting down this uprising gives Rome an opportunity to restructure the local governance: Republic's normal annual Income permanently increases by 10 Talents; and three more potential Legions of logistic strength are added to the Force Pool! The 2nd Latin War then discards.

Flaminius gains War's land strength /2 rounded up, so +2, Influence and Popularity, up to 11 and 2 respectively. No Legions lost, so no Popularity lost. Flam goes home to Rome: Progressive normal vote back up to 7, and total influence up to 15. Flam's Legions go back to Active.

This ends the Combat Phase.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 08, 2018, 05:05:44 PM
TURN SEVEN -- REVOLUTION PHASE
------------------------------

Still not Early Era, so not enough cultural leeway to try rebelling against the Senate yet.

No one has any delayed Faction cards being transferred to receive; but any cards traded at this time will arrive automatically.

No one needs to reduce their hand to five cards or less.

No one has any valid Concessions or Statesmen to play. (I double-checked.)

On the presumption that no one will be donating or trading cards for favors, I will end the Turn. (But if someone wants to do that, I'll allow a reasonable lag time for immediate transference.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 08, 2018, 05:11:40 PM
Friends! Romans! Welcome to Turn Eight! The dawn of a new Era approaches!

In effect, these prologue Eras provide some variability to the 'start position' of the main game, as well as being a nice tutorial introducing game concepts in a steady fashion rather than having all of them thrown at new Players at once.

There are plenty more game developments on the way, but I'll cover them as we get to them, so as avoid overwhelming with new information as much as possible.  O:-)

For now, the Italian Era continues into the start of...

TURN EIGHT -- MORTALITY PHASE
-----------------------------

No Immanent Wars yet.

An x2 chit is drawn for the first time out of the Death Bag! This means the chip will be put back into the reshuffle and two more chits will be drawn. A blank, and Family #25 are drawn instead. (Had x2 been one or both of those, then any non-x2 chit would have been kept out, the shuffle would have happened with the x2 again, and 2 or 4 more would be drawn out, continuing the run until no x2 chits are drawn.)

Family #25 has no active members yet, so no Players are affected.

This ends the Mortality Phase.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 08, 2018, 05:14:47 PM
REVENUE PHASE
-------------

Segment 1, Faction Incomes. All Concessions trigger Minor suspicions normally.

I.I.'s Aristocrats: 6 starting cash; +12 delayed transfer; +12 personal cash; +3 +1 +1 senator incomes; +6 knight incomes; +2 Tax Farming; +3 Harbor Fees
= new Faction total 46 cash.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/9791/Xoa9Ob.jpg)


Tripoli's Militarists: 14 starting cash; +0 personal cash; +3 +1 +1 senator incomes; +6 knight incomes; +2 +2 Tax Faming
= new Faction total 29 cash.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/1783/fzmLUw.jpg)


The Frog's Plutocrats: 4 starting cash; +7 personal cash; +5 (Plutocrat ability) +1 +1 senator incomes; +6x2(Plutocrat ability) knight incomes; +2 (1d6 roll) PontMax income; +0 Concession income
= new Faction total 32 cash.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7489/zlXHnl.jpg)


AzTank's Conservatives: 25 starting cash; +6 personal cash; +3 +1 +1 senator incomes; +4 knight incomes; +0 Concession income
= new Faction total 40 cash.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/7656/Fe13vz.jpg)


Malize's Populists: 4 starting cash; +0 personal cash; +3 +1 senator incomes; +2 knight incomes; +3 Mining Concession
= new Faction total 13 cash.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/215/Myw9rC.jpg)
(Aurelius does get a minor corruption; I just forgot to mark him. It's on the board now.)


Erax's Progressives: 2 starting cash +22 personal cash; +3 +1 +1 senator incomes; +2 knight incomes; +2 +2 Tax Farmers
= new Faction total 35 cash.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/8910/ccwOjq.jpg)


The Republic's Treasury currently has 176 Talents. Normal income is (now) 50. Normal expenses -2 x 10 Legions. No Active Wars.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 08, 2018, 05:35:23 PM
5 to Cincinnatus, 10 to Valerius, 15 to Cornelius.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 08, 2018, 09:14:25 PM
The Frog from hangout chat instructs to give 7 to each of his three senators.

(Btw, if Erax, Malize, and/or I.I. want to be in the hangout chat, that's super-okay! Just p-mail me an email address, ideally but not necessarily a gmail address, and I'll try to send an invite from the chat window. It's a faster way for some people to have discussions on the game; and in some cases to split off into private threads for plotting!  O:-) )
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 09, 2018, 02:29:46 AM
Aurelius 7 — games
Junius 3 — Knight
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 09, 2018, 08:16:53 AM
Whats the costs for games again?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 10:01:52 AM
Quote from: Erax on December 09, 2018, 08:16:53 AM
Whats the costs for games again?

The printed board is misleading on this point, by the way -- it reads 11 for level-2 games, but that's a misprint. (If I ever publicly upload this modded module, I should find a way to fix that... also the 2d6 misprint instead of 3d6 for Combat rolls.)

The levels cost 7, 13, and 18. So the increase is progressively less: 7+6+5.

The results are 1,2,3 added to the sponsoring senator's popularity, and subtracted from unrest.

Only one senator from each Faction can sponsor games per Turn. (He can do other things, too: the same senator can try for a knight, sponsor games, and also try to persuade another senator.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 10:05:55 AM
(Weird... I tried to post, and the forum engine decided I wanted to post a new topic... bugs are not entirely gone from the switch to GoDaddy as host or whoever.)

AzTank mentions by p-mail that he wants to give 2 cash to each senator.

I'm not sure he understood that Spurius Cassius is about to leave the game permanently with all his chits, so since this is a learning game I'm not going to distribute out 2 to Cassius and spuriously waste them.  O:-)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 10:10:43 AM
Tripoli by p-mail distributes 11 to Aurelius, and 7 each to Julius and Manlius.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 09, 2018, 10:25:48 AM
Thanks for the recap on costs!

4 to Flaminius, 22 to Plautius (who will spend 18 on games for +3 Pop) and 9 to Calpurnicus who will spend 5 on a guaranteed knight.

This should leave T$ 4 on each senator and T$ 0 in the faction treasury after all expenses.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 11:04:12 AM
That's the last distribution, so I've got some processing to do! Icing/freezing rain here, so power may go out, but on the other hand not much travel so staying in this morning.  :coolsmiley:
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 11:47:50 AM
Segment 3, Republic income: 176 current cash; +50 normal income; -2 unit upkeep x 10 Legions = 186 new Republic cash (and a new high watermark  <:-) ).

This ends the Revenue Phase.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 12:09:11 PM
TURN EIGHT -- FORUM PHASE
-------------------------

The Frog's Plutocrats have Appius Claudius as the Roman Consul, thus as the highest ranking available officer, and so start around the table.

Starting from this point, there are 6 Italian Era deck cards remaining. If the first one is black-text, and so plays openly to the Forum, and if it has a white border, that will trigger the start of the Early Provincial Era.

The Plutocrats roll 4+6=10, and the Frog draws a red-text Faction card to his hand. I've sent him a p-mail (and hangout chat direct message) about it.

I'll have to wait until the Frog posts or sends me directions, to continue.

Meanwhile, since that card wasn't an Early Era (white border) card played face up, the next Era has not yet started. From this point on, playing an Early Era Faction card face up will also start the new Era. (I mean if a Player plays a white bordered card from your hand.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 05:13:19 PM
Acilius pays 5 of his 7 Talents to automatically pick up his first knight. (Plutocrat vote tally goes up to 16.) Fulvius spends all 7 of his Treasury on Sponsoring games: his Pop goes up 1 to 1, and Unrest goes down 1 to 5.


The Aristocrats roll 5+6=11, so draw a Scenario card: the 2nd Samnite War.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/4060/lU6CYy.jpg)

This is an Italian Era War (as the orangish border thinly shows, as well as its label), so it does not trigger the Early Provincial Era. It's also the first "Inactive" War drawn in this game!

Inactive Wars will wait around in the background until triggered by various methods, such as the arrival of related later wars, the arrival of an Enemy Leader, or being attacked by the Republic. They don't cost the Republic any ongoing cash until they go Active.

In case you are wondering, we have not seen the First Samnite War yet. The card's text, toward the bottom, indicates we can expect three Samnite Wars during the game. They will not all go Active all at once, but one War's existence will tend to trigger the coming Activation of subsequent Wars as they arrive on the board. "Related" Wars, in other words wars of a set (like "the Samnite Wars"), are very dangerous as they can escalate beyond the Republic's capacity to fight them.

Meanwhile, I have no instructions from AzTank about what he wants to do with his Forum round, but he didn't distribute enough cash to do much other than try rolling for a knight. (Or he could change his Faction Leader if he wanted.)

So to move the game along I'll send him a chat reminder asking him which senator he wants to roll for a knight, and how much of his 2 Talents to sacrifice toward that, and continue around the board.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 05:37:25 PM
The Populists roll 5+4=9, so draw a card: and there's the 1st Samnite War!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/3766/jnduoK.jpg)

This War starts Active, and any Inactive Matching War (thus the 2nd Samnite War) advances to Immanent. That means during the next Mortality Phase, it'll go Active, too -- and a War's strength is multiplied by how many of its Matching set has gone active. Right now this thing is Force 2, and the 2nd Samnite is Force 5, but if they're both active at once then this will be Force 4 and the 2nd will be Force 10! (And if the 3rd shows up and is able to go active, each War's strength will be x3!)

Still not an Early Era card going face-up, so Italian Era remains.

Aurelius spends all 7 of his cash on Sponsoring Games: Unrest goes down 1 to 4; Aur's Pop goes up 1 to 4. Vote Tally goes up to 12. Junius sacrifices all 3 of his cash on a knight roll, and rolls a 5, so he gets his first minion! Vote tally goes up to 13.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 06:08:03 PM
The Progressives roll snake-eyes, so Erax draws a red-text Faction card face-down to his hand (which now has 4 cards). I've p-mailed him about what he drew.

It won't affect his prior instructions, nor anything else drawn so far, so I'll process those: Plautius will spend 18 on level 3 games, and Calpurnicus will spend 5 on a guaranteed knight (his first minion), leaving 4 on each senator. Unrest goes down 3 to 1. Plaut's Popularity goes up 3 to 3. Normal vote tally goes up to 8.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 06:16:10 PM
I.I.'s Aristocrats roll 1+3=4, so he draws a Scenario card: the 3rd Samnite War!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/4376/bdHgDh.jpg)

It also goes Imminent, since there's an Active Matching War already. (If the other 2 were already whomped, this one would start Active.)

(You might also notice that the expansion designer accidentally copy-pasted some of the Samnite graphics over the text instead of vice versa. I didn't catch this so I haven't fixed it, but the text is the same as I can confirm from the printed rules.)

I don't have instructions from I.I., I think, so I'll have to pause here until I receive orders.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 09, 2018, 06:46:05 PM
5 on a knight for Valerius.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 07:07:26 PM
AzTank lets me know by chat that Papirius sacrifices all 2 of his cash rolling 1d6 for a knight. He needs 4 or better, and rolls a 5! -- gaining his second minion. Normal vote tally goes up to 14.

Valerius of the Aristocrats spends 5 of his 10 cash on his 3rd minion. Normal vote tally up to 14.


Last comes Tripoli's Militarists, and by the process of deduction based on prior information (where I explained how the expansion prologue's rules divided up the Early Era senators), you can be certain what card he'll draw... which he does, rolling a 5+4 = 9, so not a random event! Instead, he draws the final card of the Italian Era, and it's the Sulpician family.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7394/NXik6M.jpg)

This instantly ends the Italian Era and starts the Early Provincial Era, which I'll technically have to process some results on before I get to Tripoli's instructions.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 07:27:11 PM
All hail the Grogpublic! -- the Republic has survived (with a lot of good luck in Allied donations randomly rolled) into the Early Provincial Era!  <:-)

The BIRTH OF THE REPUBLIC prologue / tutorial Eras haven't quite passed, since all three of the Samnite Wars are on the board, but they have done their job of introducing game concepts at (hopefully) a manageable rate, while creating some variation on how, and in effect when, the main game 'starts'.

But the main game starts now. :coolsmiley:

With some effects which I'll cover as we get to them, and with some immediate effects I'm processing now.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 08:06:45 PM
First, the pre-Early random even table is set aside (along with its Italian Era modification card), and the Early Era Random Event table goes into effect. We'll talk about the particulars next Turn, since they won't apply this Turn (Tripoli being the last Player with a round.)

Second, any pre-Early Statesmen remaining in the deck discard permanently. But none remain.

Third, all remaining cards from the Italian Deck stack on top of the Early Provincial Deck. But none (as it turns out) remain.

Fourth: all pre-Early Statesmen being held in Players' Faction hands face-down, discard permanently. As it happens this only affects I.I., who was holding the Italian Statesman Marcus Atillius Regulus -- whom he couldn't play because the Frog already had family #12 (the Acilians) on the board.

Fifth: all active pre-Early Statesmen without families discard permanently. This only affects AzTank, whose family #24 Spurius Cassius Vicellinus was always going to be "spurious" this way, since his family could never be politically important in time to inherit from him.

Marcus Furius Camillus, venerable and honored Faction Leader of the Conservatives, also discards; but AzTank does have his family card, so all the chips pass down. That includes the Faction Leader status; "prior consul" status (oddly enough); 2 Talents; 2 Popularity; and 5 Influence (Cam's current 10 minus his 5 original Inf stat).

Keep in mind that this inheritance process, from Statesman to family Senator, remains an ongoing Conservative ability for the rest of the game, unique to AzTank's Faction!

The legendary Quinctius Cincinnatus has also (just recently!) managed to train an heir, retiring to pass down his prior consul training; 5 Talents; 1 knight; 1 popularity (2 current minus his original 1); and 14 Influence (15 minus his original 1). As it happens, the Quinctian family Senator always starts with 1 Influence, so the stat remains 15.

The original Manlius of the Militarists, meanwhile, was an otherwise unnamed Military Leader Statesman (unique to the Latin Era). He also retires, transferring all his chips directly to the new Manlius -- the only difference being a reduction of 2 Mil skill back from 5 to the original 3. But Manlius' three inherited minions bump that back up to 6. (The net result being a drop from 8 to 6.) All other stats necessarily remain the same, since this "Statesman" was simply a Mil skill buff.

Last but not least, the famous and influential Censor Appius Claudius, who wanted so much to help promote families into the Senate (but failed on his only such roll), and who wanted so much to fight in the 1st Latin War (but whose Mil skill barely existed), hands on his legacy to his family heir! The Censorial office; prior consul training; 7 Talentons; 4 knights; and 14 Influence (19 minus Ap's original 5). Since the Claudian family normally starts with 4 Influence, this adjusts down to 18.

I feel genuine nostalgia at the passing of these great Statesmen and their deeds which shall live in our memories as examples going into the future!

(I'll post new screenshots of the Player mats soon, before the Senate starts, as usual, so everyone can see where they're at now.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 08:11:48 PM
Per Tripoli's instructions, Julius spends 5 of his 7 talentons automatically gaining his 4th minion, who also increases his Mil Skil to 8.

I was given provisional instructions for Aelius to spend all 11 of his cash to Sponsor games; but since only 1 Unrest remains, and since Tripoli might take a shot at Persuading the new family Senator in the Forum...

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7394/NXik6M.jpg)

...whose arrival triggered the Early Provincial Era, then I'm going to pause here to see if Tripoli wants to adjust his instructions.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 08:30:52 PM
Since Tripoli's choice about that isn't going to affect the Population Phase, and since his choice will end the Forum Phase, I'll move along for now...

TURN EIGHT -- POPULATION PHASE
------------------------------

Putting Rome in order: all senators with PontMax office and above get one Major marker. (Technically Acilius gets two Majors, but it isn't possible for someone to be investigated twice in one Turn for Major suspicion. I'm including them both for illustration of the point this time, but in future Turns I'll only give one Major marker to senators with both PontMax and some other higher office.)

No Tax Farming Concessions are threatened; and no destroyed Concessions in the Curia. Nor are there any Aging Enemy Leaders.

The Fabian family in the Curia rolls a 2 on a 1d6, and can't promote a new patrician this Turn. (The late Appius Claudius wouldn't have helped that result either, bless his heart.)

There are no drought effects, and no Unprosecuted Wars, so the Unrest stays at 1.

Roman Consul Acilius of the Plutocrats is the HRAO (I said ApClaud earlier by habit, but it didn't matter since the Plutocrats had both the Censor and the Roman Consul). Therefore he takes his place on the steps to open the Senate this Turn as the Presiding Magistrate, and gives the State of the Republic! Popularity 0 minus 1 Unrest plus 3d6 of 3+1+1 (yeek!) equals 4! According to the chart, this adds 5 to the unrest level, increasing it to 6!


At this point I really do have to pause until we hear back from Tripoli one way or another, not least so that I can be sure of providing accurate snapshots going into the Senate Phase this Turn.  O:-)

Thus, neither has the Senate Phase officially started, so don't try throwing assassinations, or Tribuning Proposals for the new Consuls (nor the Frog normally Proposing anything) yet. You can discuss things, of course, but not make actual proposals yet.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 10:14:55 PM
Okay, Tripoli confirms that he will try to Persuade the Sulpician family to join the Militarists.

Aelius be Persuading, and will spend 4 of his 11 Talents on the attempt.

12 Influence + 4 Oratory - 8 Loyalty + 4 bribery = +12 Base Number.

That doesn't mean he'll automatically win. A natural roll of 10, 11, or 12 will always fail to Persuade a Senator. (This keeps super-rich Players toward the end of the game from poaching senators from poorer players automatically.)

Since no Faction card preventing counter-bribery will be played on this attempt, all Players must now state whether or not they will add any cash to Sulp's card as counter-bribes. This cash can only come from your Faction Treasuries. Each Talent in Sulp's personal Treasury will reduce the Base Number one point. Once the BN drops below 2, no possible roll can win.

Once everyone has stated whether you will or not, Tripoli will have one last opportunity to add the rest of Aelius' 7 remaining Talents to the bribery.

Sulp will keep all Talents bribed to him regardless, making him that much more difficult to Persuade in the future -- but anyone who succeeds will end up controlling all his personal Treasury, too!
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on December 09, 2018, 10:41:20 PM
I will spend 7 from faction cash to prevent the persuasion. 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 09, 2018, 10:59:04 PM
Quote from: Ethel the Frog on December 09, 2018, 10:41:20 PM
I will spend 7 from faction cash to prevent the persuasion.
I'll match that.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 10, 2018, 02:21:55 AM
Not getting involved in this (don't really have the cash to anyway, let's be honest :) )


However, Junius should've also gotten +1 Pop from the games since Aurelius' pop went up.   
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 10, 2018, 06:43:13 AM
I don't have the cash to get into a bidding war, I'm staying out.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 10, 2018, 07:16:29 AM
Quik point of order: Rule 1.07.413 says that all bribes must come from the faction treasury.  I can't tell if II and Ethel have that much in their faction treasury. If they do, then I won't counter-bribe.  My persuasion attempt fails, and the subject walks off  14 silver richer.  Nice work, if you can get it.. :)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 10, 2018, 08:00:42 AM
Argh! -- yep, good catch Malize! I'll adjust that this afternoon (I hope). You'd think I'd remember that more often...  :hide: :-[ :pullhair: #:-)

The Frog had 11 in his Faction Treasury, and I.I. had plenty, too -- I'd have to check exactly how much, but more than the Plutocrats!

So yep, they can afford it.

I'm going to count your public message at 6:16 (system time) to override your pmail at 6:02 (system time) about what to do after counter-bribing is done.

So, Tripoli concedes and there will be no further bribing from him. However, Sulp isn't only 14 Talents richer (7 from the Frog and from I.I.'s Faction Treasury.) He's also another 4 Talents richer from Aelius' personal Treasury!

Thus, Sulp will have 18 Talents now (7+7+4). And he'll be that much more difficult (18 points worth) to Persuade to join anyone. (Until when-if-ever he dies and respawns from the Curia.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 10, 2018, 08:07:52 AM
This means the Senate Phase has officially started now. Assassinations can be thrown, and Tribunes and the Frog can make Proposals.

First Mandatory Business is the Proposal and election of two new Consuls. Keep in mind that you've got one easy War to deal with this turn (force strength only two), and increasingly difficult Wars coming up over the next two Turns. This would be a good milk-run for some doofy little senator as Field Consul.

The Senate can however vote to send the Roman as well as the Field Consul out to hit two of the three Wars on the board; and those two Wars can even include (or both can be) the two Immanent Wars!

If y'all decide to hit those, though, you had better make sure you win, because any attacked War will immediately go Active after the fight -- and since all three are Matching each other, they'll multiply each other, too! (I'll have to double-check, but I don't think attacking a non-Active Matching War means they go Active and so multiply strengths before the fight. If so, it would almost always be better to leave them alone and let them promote up to Active in their own time.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 10, 2018, 08:57:03 AM
Another big main-game factor that triggers in the Early Provincial Era, is that now one Player can win the game by himself by making one of his senators Emperor!  <:-)

Naturally there are a bunnnccchh of rules about this, but I'll cover the basics of the three methods for doing this:


1st.) Your senator can be elected Consul for Life during a Senate Phase. (CfL is the legal way to become Emperor.) Naturally, every other Player will have a vested interest in voting against you, but your nominee's personal Influence also counts (in this one unique situation) as extra votes in the Senate! The Proposal can be made by Tribune, and only one Proposal for CfL can be made per Turn. Losing the vote (somehow) doesn't bring any penalties. The Proposal can be made any time after new Consuls are elected, except not while the Censor is PM (because no Proposals can be made while he's deciding whether to investigate someone or actually prosecuting them.)

The nominee must be present in Rome (not off somewhere else), and needs 21 or more Influence (which will count toward his votes). He can hold any or no office, and does not need to be a prior Consul.

The Proposal cannot be vetoed (by Tribune or by PontMax or by some Statesmen abilities). But if it's proposed by a Tribune, there is at least one Intrigue card which can be played to make the Tribune withdraw his Proposal.

Since a vote is technically involved, it can be interrupted by assassinating your nominee! -- but keep in mind that a senator can only be targeted by one assassination attempt per Turn (so the Players can't run an assassination train on the nominee. ;) Not even every Player taking one attempt.) What you can expect, is that each of your voting senators will be targeted for assassination once by some Player's senator! -- since while that won't stop the vote (like assassinating the candidate), being dead will stop that/those other senator(s) from casting votes.


2nd.) Automatic appointment of any senator with 35 or more Influence. Since it's theoretically possible for more than one senator to cross that line together, the one farthest across the line gets the appointment. Total Faction Influence breaks any such ties; but oldest family among candidates does not break tied Faction Influence. (Usually oldest family is the ultimate tie-breaker.) This can happen at any time, not only in the Senate. Since no voting is involved, there can be no interruptions including by assassination -- though I think the rules may allow that one assassination attempt can be made afterward, if it happens during the Senate Phase.

A Player can avoid his senators being attacked as they approach the 35 Influence threshold, by publicly Contracting that one or some or all of his senators will never accept Consul for Life. He can exclude one or more of his senators from ever being elected or rebelling this way, too.


3rd.) A Faction may partly or completely rebel against the Senate during the Revolution Phase. In that case, one of the senators will be the Prime Rebel, and he'll create a War, which the Senate will have to start dealing with in the next Senate Phase. If at any time the Senate doesn't Prosecute his War, or all appointed commanders against his War suffer sufficient Defeat against it (below minimum Force levels to keep his War contained), then the Prime Rebel will take over the Republic as Emperor.

Becoming Emperor (or Consul for Life which is the same thing but more legally ;) ), doesn't necessarily mean that senator's Player automatically wins. The Republic can be restored if he dies consolidating his rule -- which mainly amounts to him successfully reducing Rome's Wars to three or less, but dying in the final success. (The official rules say that the Player will still win if his Consul for Life senator is captured, but I'm going to house rule that this restores the Republic, too, with various results if he pays his way free or is rescued by defeating his captor's War.)

A failed Prime Rebel will die, along with his fellow rebel senators, but this doesn't mean his Player is out of the game! -- even if there's a party wipe and all his senators die. You'll just be handicapped in continuing for a while until the game assigns you a new senatorial family from the Curia. It's possible for a failed Rebel Faction to win with everyone else if the Republic survives to the end of the game, or even to come back and win alone with an Emperor after all!
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 10, 2018, 07:22:37 PM
Tribune!

I propose Julius and Aurelius for Consuls.

I also propose a public agreement between the Militarists, Progressives, Populists and Aristocrats to: 1) Vote for this proposal, 2) propose and vote for an Aristocrat Censor this turn, and 3) That Censor not prosecute anyone in the aforementioned four factions this turn.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 10, 2018, 08:37:32 PM
Quote from: Erax on December 10, 2018, 07:22:37 PM
Tribune!

I propose Julius and Aurelius for Consuls.

I also propose a public agreement between the Militarists, Progressives, Populists and Aristocrats to: 1) Vote for this proposal, 2) propose and vote for an Aristocrat Censor this turn, and 3) That Censor not prosecute anyone in the aforementioned four factions this turn.

The Aristocrats vote for and agree to the contract.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 10, 2018, 09:43:48 PM
Phew, catching up! -- I had to stay late at work again (and will through the end of.... gosh, I dunno, Feburary maybe  :buck2: ), and then had to go out of town immediately afterward until returning just now!

But I've processed the plays so far, including the missing Populist point I should have reckoned for Junias.

Incidentally, the Tribune played by Erax tottered into the Senate from back in the Latin Era -- which was a weird balancing choice by the prologue/tutorial expansion designer, since there's no way to even play Tribunes until the Plebian Revolt of the Italian Era has been resolved!
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 10, 2018, 10:41:29 PM
I agree to the public contract. 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 10, 2018, 11:39:39 PM
Quote from: Erax on December 10, 2018, 07:22:37 PM
Tribune!

I propose Julius and Aurelius for Consuls.

I also propose a public agreement between the Militarists, Progressives, Populists and Aristocrats to: 1) Vote for this proposal, 2) propose and vote for an Aristocrat Censor this turn, and 3) That Censor not prosecute anyone in the aforementioned four factions this turn.

Agreed
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 11, 2018, 08:00:14 AM
Okay, I've made sure the Frog knows y'all are staging a political coup here. ;)

You know for a fact that he's got at least one veto he could throw (from his PontMax, which recharges every new Senate Phase), so I've got to wait on processing your Contract (though I note its validity) until he declares whether he'll act or not.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 11, 2018, 10:22:03 AM
Per private message, the Frog says Acilius the PontMax will veto this Consul Proposal.

The PM does not offer his own Proposal yet.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 11, 2018, 10:30:03 AM
Erax throws a second Tribune (two cards left in his hand now), this one a normal Early Era trib.

This incidentally means, for anyone who wasn't in a position to know yet, that at least one of the Early Era tribunes was shuffled into at least one of the prior Era decks. So just because the Latin Era tribune was played, doesn't mean there aren't any more!

The new Proposal is Julius of the Militarists and Junius of the Populists for Consul.

The first term of the prior Contract being foiled means that all subsequent terms are no longer binding.

However Erax re-offers a new Contract with all the same terms except the replaced obligation to vote for these senators as Consuls.

Technically I'll have to have approval again by any Players who agree to be included in the Contract's automatic procession.



(Oh, and Erax correctly points out that 2 x 10 does not equal 40...  #:-) :pullhair: :notworthy: So the Republic actually has 206 Talents. This is why I should use a calculator for literally everything I do in math, even if it seems obviously simple. Math is not my strong suit.  :hide: )
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 11, 2018, 12:26:06 PM
Agreed to new terms
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 11, 2018, 04:33:47 PM
The position of the Aristocrats has not changed.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 11, 2018, 06:59:38 PM
Okay, catching up again after work. The Republic's actual Treasury total is fixed (206). I've deducted the proper amounts (4 from Aelius; 7 each from the Faction Treasuries of the Plutocrats and the Aristocrats) in the Sulp Persuasion attempt, and added 18 Talents to his card.

The new Contract remains valid with the new Consul proposal. I'll start processing the votes with what I've got so far. I fully expect Tripoli to agree to the new Contract offer but strictly speaking he hasn't done so yet, so I can't process his votes yet.

Votes for so far are 8 Progs; + 14 Poppies (I've double checked all the Pop gains and losses for Aurelius, and for Junius since he reset); + 14 Aristos (no activists because not top Influence) = 36.

There are still 43 potential votes against (including 4 extra Conservative activist votes), so I can't just call it a day without the Militarists kicking in. (Or one of the others for that matter: they're perfectly free to agree with the Proposal!)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 11, 2018, 07:05:31 PM
Yep-I agree to the new proposal
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 11, 2018, 07:52:44 PM
That'll pass the proposal then, unless one of the other two guys has a(nother) Tribune he wants to throw to veto it.

I'll let this run a little while longer to see if there's any counter-action and then proceed.

This introduces an unavoidable slowdown factor, since while I know whether or not other players have a Tribune which they may or may not use, it wouldn't be fair if I revealed that publicly -- which proceeding automatically with a vote's results, or waiting, might inadvertently reveal! There's also the question of allowing time for asynchronous play, since after all the whole point to this mode is to allow players to check in on the game according to their own schedule and see if they need to make any choices.

If anyone has suggestions on how to streamline this, let me know.

Relatedly, when players have tribunes, you should be thinking ahead to when you might or might not play them, and let me know privately so that when you aren't available I can try to assess the situation according to your protocols. No one can expect you to anticipate every circumstances of course! -- but anything you can anticipate ahead of time will be proportionately helpful.  O:-)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on December 11, 2018, 08:34:20 PM
I have no counteraction.  All hail the new consul and the new coalition. 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 11, 2018, 09:44:02 PM
Quote from: Ethel the Frog on December 11, 2018, 08:34:20 PM
I have no counteraction.  All hail the new consul and the new coalition. 

{unspoken qualifier} "...for now."  >:D

Junius and Julius will have to figure out between them who gets to take the Legions to go beat up on the 1st Samnite War, and who gets to be run the rest of this Turn's Senate. Each of them will get 5 Influence regardless: the new, full-game Influence for Consul election (and for the Censor coming up).

Speaking of, the next Mandatory Business will be to Propose and elect a Censor. Whichever Faction gets Roman Consul, you'll be obligated by Contract to Propose an Aristocrat senator, so you can't re-elect the new Claudius (though Censors can be re-elected each year.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 12, 2018, 08:19:57 AM
Julius is the obvious field consul choice imo, my guy is basically only useful if at Rome and not really worth putting in charge of legions compared to militarist senators.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 12, 2018, 09:26:09 AM
This leads tangentially to a house rule or modification that I've been toying with in the back of my head.

I feel (and I use that word distinctly) that there should be at least some chance, or even perhaps a certainty, of Victorious commanders gaining a point of Mil skill for their Victory. Or maybe after any battle win or lose.

Currently the official rules don't allow for the idea of senators gaining experience and becoming more efficient after winning fights. That seems unrealistic.

But on the other hand, I can understand not gaining better logistic efficiency due to game balance, too.  :-\ (The Militarists would still have an advantage due to their knights providing better headquarter capability, as well as benefiting from the usual chance or certainty of experience gain.)

Also, there's kinnnnnnd of a mechanic in place for senators gaining experience, and that's Legion veterancy -- which has unlocked now with the Early Provincial Era, so whomever you send out to stomp the first Samnite War will not only pick up 1 Influence and 1 Pop (and maybe another Pop if a Populist is sent to do it  ^-^ ), but also the Legions will start turning Veteran. And veteran legions returning with a commander will have some special loyalty to that commander.

But then again, that loyalty only really applies, in a military sense, to situations of rebellion, whether against or in defense of the Republic. Otherwise veterans are available for every commander to use, even though loyal to a particular one.


While I'm at it, I'll also be testing a new optional rule concerning Vet training. In the main rules, Vet Legions hit harder but don't defend one whit better than normal Legions. I could think of four levels of improved defense for Vet Legions compared to normal Legions, and I couldn't decide which would be better for game balancing, so I set up a situation where a new Other Business option for the Senate has been added to pay a one-time fee (currently 10 Talents but that seems cheap, I may raise it progressively or absolutely) for each new level of Vet defense training. This would be something similar to the Marian reforms, which I noticed seems to be lacking as a game mechanic or event.  ???
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 12, 2018, 05:02:14 PM
The current proposal is to have the Julius of the militarists take all 10 legions, and, "open a can of whup-ass" on the Saminites in the 1st Saminite War.  I think that would be an auto-victory, as the minimum 3D roll is a 3 (10 legions +8 military-2 war strength)=16+3 die roll>18.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 12, 2018, 05:25:09 PM
Well, that will settle Julius being the Field Consul, so Junius of the Populists will be Roman Consul by deduction.

That Proposal will have to wait until Mandatory Business is finished, though. But now we can tell that Malize will be running the Senate for the rest of the Turn, and his first duty as the new HRAO and thus the Presiding Magistrate will be to Propose a Censor election -- which he's Contracted to pick from I.I.'s Aristocrats.

Theoretically, AzTank and/or the Frog could preempt that with a Tribune, if one of them has one (or more), and Propose someone themselves for Censor, but whether they have the votes to get away with it is a whole other question. My guess is that for one or another reason they won't rock the boat on it, but we'll see.

Anyway. Over to Malize now to Propose a Censor from I.I.'s stable.

After that gets done, then I.I. will have to consider investigations, and we'll have to process one or two or none of those; and then we'll be done with Mandatory business and can move on to Malize Proposing Julius slaughtering the Samnites like crickets.  >:D
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 12, 2018, 05:48:17 PM
I propose the honorable Valerius as Censor.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 12, 2018, 07:09:15 PM
Catching up on Consul assignment results: Junius gets a Prior Consul marker and 5 Influence, up to 8, bringing Populists' total Influence to 11. Julius also earns a Prior Consul marker and 5 Influence, up to 9, Militarist total Influence up to 34. Roman and Field Consuls respectively, as noted.

Valerius is a valid choice (being in Rome, and being a Prior Consul), and the 8th Turn Coalition certainly has the votes to pass it. I'll provisionally process it as done.

Valerius gains 5 Influence, up to 16, new total up to 46. The Aristocrats generate an extra Influence point from this (the 47th total) to be given to someone other than Val.

The PM duty shifts over to Valerius and I.I. must decide whether to investigate anyone. Valid targets after the Contracted Factions are excluded are:

From the Plutocrats, Claudius and the PontMax Acilius, each on Major suspicions.

From the Aristocrats... well, no one, because suffering the slings of fortune and being politically irrelevant for a while also makes you invulnerable to suspicion.  O:-)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 12, 2018, 09:32:41 PM
First off, Valerius will commission the construction of the Via Appia Valeria south for the use of Julius' legions. Owing to its significance to the war effort, he will consider judicial matters once the groundwork has been laid (possible prosecutions to come).
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 13, 2018, 05:17:32 AM
After we are done with prosecutions and before we go off to war, we should decide whether to raise the three new legions in our pool.

Having looked at the rules, it's clear to me that an attacked Imminent War does, in fact, go active and multiply its matching wars immediately, so that would be a bad idea and we should focus on the active war.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 13, 2018, 08:19:43 AM
Quote from: IncompetentIdiot on December 12, 2018, 09:32:41 PM
First off, Valerius will commission the construction of the Via Appia Valeria south for the use of Julius' legions. Owing to its significance to the war effort, he will consider judicial matters once the groundwork has been laid (possible prosecutions to come).

To be clear, he's playing an Italian Era Faction Intrigue card from his hand, which happens to also be an historical Event.

I'm not where I can take a snapshot of it (much less process the results), but the card text which is sufficiently explanatory reads: "Playable during the Senate Phase," check, "after Censor election," check, "by a faction that controls the Censor," check. Within the implications of the game rules, this means I.I. can play it at will, any time after Val has been elected Censor, which is what he's doing.

"Censor gains 2 Popularity and Unrest is lowered by 2. The State must immediately pay 10 Talents from the Treasury. Cannot be played if less than 10t in the Treasury." In other words you can't troll everyone in the game by suiciding the Republic with this card.  ::) As usual it discards permanently after use.

Historically, Appius Claudius convinced the Senate to build (and pay for) the Appian Way while he was serving as Censor, thus the terms of the card (and why Rome's and indeed the Western World's, perhaps even the world's, first superhighway was named that.)

Ironically, Appius Claudius in this game was Censor at least once; and had the Frog gotten this card at that time somehow, he could have matched history with it.  :coolsmiley:

I'll have to process the results when I get home from work, but I can verify it's a valid card play.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 13, 2018, 08:22:27 AM
Rome looked on the road, and it was a good road.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 13, 2018, 08:31:42 AM
Quote from: Erax on December 13, 2018, 05:17:32 AM
After we are done with prosecutions and before we go off to war, we should decide whether to raise the three new legions in our pool.

Having looked at the rules, it's clear to me that an attacked Imminent War does, in fact, go active and multiply its matching wars immediately, so that would be a bad idea and we should focus on the active war.

Thanks, I somehow didn't look that up myself last night to check which way it went, even though I fully meant to!  O0 :notworthy:

To be a little more specific, it not only multiplies its Matching Wars, it multiplies itself, too, immediately. All Matching Wars multiply each other in being part of a set. So going after one of the Imminent Wars will double its own power immediately and also the power of the 1st Samnite.

HOWEVER! -- the sequence of attack can make this less of a problem. If you Deploy a Force to attack the 1st Samnite War first (which will necessarily send the Field Consul as Force Commander, under these circumstances, a Dictator being unavailable yet due to lack of sufficient threat), and then Deploy (by a different Proposal, notice) a Force (with the Roman Consul) to attack one of the Imminent Samnite Wars (which by the way will instantly end the Senate Phase since the PM will have departed, unless the PM resigns his post for this year devolving PM duties onto the next available officer, the Censor presumably in this case).... {inhale!}

...then the Imminent War does go Active and multiplies with its Matching War immediately (as Erax verified), BUT you'd be attacking the weaker War first which only has a strength 4 even doubled. And if you manage to defeat that, then the next fight during the Combat Phase will be against a War depleted back to its normal Land Strength.

So depending on your logistic capabilities, there are ways to game the rules there.  O:-) Still riskier than stomping the Wars one at a time in sequences as they activate, as Minerva would doubtless advise.  :coolsmiley:
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 13, 2018, 08:44:34 AM
Quote from: IncompetentIdiot on December 12, 2018, 09:32:41 PM
First off, Valerius will commission the construction of the Via Appia Valeria south for the use of Julius' legions. Owing to its significance to the war effort, he will consider judicial matters once the groundwork has been laid (possible prosecutions to come).

What are the effects of this card on the war effort?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 13, 2018, 09:38:32 AM
Quote from: Tripoli on December 13, 2018, 08:44:34 AM
Quote from: IncompetentIdiot on December 12, 2018, 09:32:41 PM
First off, Valerius will commission the construction of the Via Appia Valeria south for the use of Julius' legions. Owing to its significance to the war effort, he will consider judicial matters once the groundwork has been laid (possible prosecutions to come).

What are the effects of this card on the war effort?

Nothing in the game; in real life it had a military importance of course. I think this was just Malize roleplaying.  :)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 13, 2018, 10:39:11 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on December 13, 2018, 09:38:32 AM
Nothing in the game; in real life it had a military importance of course. I think this was just Malize roleplaying.  :)

Yup.

Rome so serious.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 13, 2018, 12:03:49 PM
Eh, it's a heretofore unseen card, so it makes sense to check if it had an in-game military application.

(Also I meant to type "I.I." not Malize, since he was the one rp-ing the building of the Via Valerian. But a neuron zigged instead of zagging.  ::) )

I dearly love all the rp-ing, by the way!  :smitten:

Almost as much as I love the political strategerying.  >:D
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 13, 2018, 06:57:17 PM
Catching up a little... here's the Appian Way card:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/6804/r7XmN0.jpg)

Val gains his first 2 Pop; Unrest goes down 2 to 4. The Republic pays 10 Talents, down from 206 to 196. That was I.I.'s last remaining Faction card in his hand.

As a reminder, I still don't haven't heard from you, I.I., where your extra point of Influence should go. Not to Valerius (he generated it as a special ability side effect); Quinc and Corny both have 15. Corny is your faction leader and a priest, and has 3 knights and a Tax Farming Concession (and 15 cash). Quinc has 1 Pop, 1 knight, and 5 cash. You can check back to a pre-Senate snapshot to see their basic stats (Mil / Ora / Loy.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 15, 2018, 12:13:58 PM
In case anyone is wondering, most of the action recently has involved back-channel political strategizing. We may have stalled a bit on that in the last day, in regard to whether to do this-or-that (or possibly the other).

Anyway, eventually the Players will work out how to proceed. But we've got Christmas holidays coming up, and this combined with winter weather in the northern hemisphere is likely to delay gameplay off and on until we're clear of it.

Consequently, if Players (including myself as umpire) are going to be out of pocket for a while, be sure to post and let us know.  O:-)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 15, 2018, 02:08:20 PM
I'm available.  SImply getting my legions ready to cross the Rubicon, err, I mean defend Rome against the Samarians.... ;D
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 16, 2018, 09:56:47 AM
Valerius will prosecute Acilius. Voting order will be Plutocrats, Populists, Militarists, Conservatives, Progressives, and Aristocrats.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 16, 2018, 11:12:17 AM
Quote from: IncompetentIdiot on December 16, 2018, 09:56:47 AM
Valerius will prosecute Acilius. Voting order will be Plutocrats, Populists, Militarists, Conservatives, Progressives, and Aristocrats.

Minor or Major?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 16, 2018, 11:52:06 AM
Yep, the Major or Minor has to be included in the announcement. (I mean, I know which one you probably intend, but since one result threatens a character death then it has to be announced.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 16, 2018, 12:18:03 PM
Also! -- I.I. must arrange for a Prosecutor. It can't be Valerius; as Censor he's acting as the judge. (I.I. can choose one of his other senators to be Prosecutor, or can choose a volunteer offered by another Player.)

(While I'm at it, I.I. should let me know which senator other than Valerius gets the extra 1 point of farmed Aristocratic Influence.  :coolsmiley: )
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 16, 2018, 01:14:54 PM
The prosecution will be Major. Can Acilius be the subject of a Minor prosecution with no Minor tokens? Cornelius will prosecute.

Extra influence to Quinctius.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 16, 2018, 02:35:29 PM
Quote from: IncompetentIdiot on December 16, 2018, 01:14:54 PM
The prosecution will be Major. Can Acilius be the subject of a Minor prosecution with no Minor tokens? Cornelius will prosecute.

Extra influence to Quinctius.

Yes, Major suspicions can be given Minor prosecutions.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 16, 2018, 03:01:34 PM
Meanwhile, we can start tracking votes:

Acilius' Influence = 16 votes for Acquittal

The Plutocrats have no reason not to vote for Acilius's Acquittal, so provisionally: +14 votes for Acquittal

The Plutocrats must decide, before voting continues, whether or not Acilius is going to risk making a Popular Appeal. Until then, other Players must NOT announce their votes!

Despite going last, presumably all Aristocrat senators will vote against Acquittal; and they're still 3 points shy of having the most total Influence, thus no activist knight voting. So: -14 votes.

Net votes so far are 16 for Acquittal. (Prosecutor and Advocate net oratory counts as a dice-roll modifier during the final trial, not as extra net votes per se.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 16, 2018, 05:41:23 PM
What dice mods apply to the popular appeal roll?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 16, 2018, 05:53:09 PM
Only the Accused's Popularity, which is zero for Acilius so it counts for nothing. It would add to the dice-roll if his Pop was positive, and subtract if negative.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 17, 2018, 08:46:58 AM
If I understand things correctly we are waiting on if popular appeal is occurring before voting ?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 17, 2018, 09:54:35 AM
Quote from: malize on December 17, 2018, 08:46:58 AM
If I understand things correctly we are waiting on if popular appeal is occurring before voting ?

Yes. I've dropped the Frog a reminder that we need to know before we can proceed. Since Acilius has totally neutral (0) popularity, it's a case of how lucky does he feel. ;)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 17, 2018, 10:03:50 AM
He just chatted back that he will not make a Popular Appeal. So voting can now continue!

For ease of reference, the voting order going forward will be: Populists, Militarists, Conservatives, Progressives, and (if they want to do something different than I expected ;) ) Aristocrats.

We're still at a net 16 votes for Acquittal (assuming the Aristocrats vote against as the Plutos voted for, neutralizing each other and leaving over Ac's 16 Influence as Prosecution votes.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 17, 2018, 11:53:37 AM
Populists are for acquittal, I'm very leery of each turns censorial sitting becoming a license to pogrom — won't be too long before most factions would be vulnerable to elimination if we keep on that way; I apologize if that disappoints others, I get the goal here, just wish there was a better method than state sanctioned murder (with tit for tat potential)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 17, 2018, 01:06:43 PM
I just realized, I totally forgot to provide pre-Senate snapshot adjustments this Turn. I got too distracted talking about the new function unlocking to try to be Emperor.  :-[

That just means I'll have to wait until tonight (possibly after a Christmas party) to update the voting results.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 17, 2018, 05:16:30 PM
Okay, sneaking in some moments before the party. I'll see if I can't get properly current snapshots, too...

Malize adds 14 votes for acquittal, bringing the net votes to 30.

Tripoli votes next, then AzTank, then Erax, then last I.I. (although I'm provisionally including his votes already since he launched the Prosecution. ;) )

The Frog has not yet chosen an Advocate, but he can wait until after the Player voting to do that.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 17, 2018, 05:29:00 PM
Snapshotting!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/7331/8ePkhn.jpg)




(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/5747/mqaYAk.jpg)




(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/2483/mZkNqR.jpg)




(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/3548/yXvY9I.jpg)




(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/1940/4RTSZQ.jpg)




(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/8800/BUiwYT.jpg)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 17, 2018, 06:30:06 PM
Quote from: malize on December 17, 2018, 11:53:37 AM
Populists are for acquittal, I'm very leery of each turns censorial sitting becoming a license to pogrom — won't be too long before most factions would be vulnerable to elimination if we keep on that way; I apologize if that disappoints others, I get the goal here, just wish there was a better method than state sanctioned murder (with tit for tat potential)

I have to  agree with Malize.  I didn't agree at first when this question was posed, but on reflection, but it seems like we are setting up for a Roman version of McBeth, and without much justification.  However, its a pretty close question.  The militarists are going cast all their votes for acquittal-this time.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 17, 2018, 06:46:46 PM
That's 16 more votes, bringing the net total up to +46!  :o

AzTank votes next, then Erax.

If no Player other than I.I. votes against Acquittal (a real possibility at this point), then Valerius will lose a point of Influence....


Edited to add: AzTank may be traveling this week, so this might be the start of various holiday-delays.  O:-)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on December 18, 2018, 03:18:13 PM
My guys vote to aquit.  Also yes to frog keeping pontmax
I
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 18, 2018, 04:44:44 PM
That leaves Erax's Progressives!

I suspect, though I won't be sure until I can check later tonight, that we've passed the point where the 'invisible' senator votes can threaten Acilius with a loss, even if Erax votes against Acquittal.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 18, 2018, 05:46:16 PM
Okay, we're technically past the point where the Progressive votes could possibly flip the Trial to Conviction. The net vote (already counting the Aristocrats presumably) was +46 before the Conservatives weighed in, and jumped another 9 points to 55. The 'invisible' senators could only at most vote -20, and Erax could only add -8-3 = -11 more votes. -31 votes won't drop 55 below 0.

If all the Players voted against the Censor, then he'd lose an Influence point, but by putting himself last it doesn't matter to I.I. whether Erax votes for or against acquittal: the Censor in Trials is not obligated to vote against Acquittal. So if (as might happen) everyone votes against him, he'd just agree at the end, and avoid the 1 Inf penalty loss.

Nor would there be any other effect to counting Erax's votes pro or con.

Consequently, the Trial effectively ends here.

Edited to add processed results:

The Frog never got around to announcing an Advocate for Acilius, so Acilius defended himself. Consequently, he doesn't gain any influence for his win.

Cornelius as the designated Prosecutor loses 3 Influence, down from 15 to 12. Total Aristocrat Influence is now 44.

Since there can be only one Major Investigation per Senate Phase (not counting Specials for Assassination conspiracy), this ends the Prosecutions. Valerius hands the PM duties back over to Junius of the Populists.  With the Prosecution over, everyone loses their Suspicion marks until next Turn.

This also ends all Mandatory Business. Other Business is now open for consideration, e.g. Raising one or more of the next three (11th thru 13th) Legions; Deploying one or more Forces to hit Wars; and possibly attempting to remove the PontMax Office from Acilius by direct Senatorial vote (though that will need more than 66% majority.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 18, 2018, 05:56:38 PM
On the question of a possible Proposal to Remove Acilius from PontMaxiness ;) ....

We already know (because he said so) that AzTank's Conservatives will vote against that proposal, so with his activist ability thus activated he'll muster (9+4) 13 votes; and the Frog can be expected to vote against it, so that's another 14. Thus 27 votes minimum against.

Maximum votes in favor would be I.I.'s 14 (can't activate activists) + Tripoli's 16 + Malize's 14 + Erax's activist (8+3) 11. Thus 55 votes maximum for.

Absolute total would be 82. 55/82 = jusssssst barely over 66%. Specifically, 0.6707317 (rounded 67.1%)

So the Proposal would work, but only if everyone votes against the Plutocrat / Conservative stand, AND only if the Frog doesn't have a Tribune in his hand. (He does have two cards face-down.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 18, 2018, 09:50:06 PM
For simplicities sake I'll lay out the issues for the senate to vote on by bullet point and factions can vote in any order on each item (these are all yea/nay)

1) raise all available legions

2) place all legions under field consul vs 1st samnite war (iirc)

3) remove acilius as pontmax

4) appoint calpurnicus of the progressives as new pont max

Jason step in if I've messed something up
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 18, 2018, 10:02:49 PM
Yea for all.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 18, 2018, 10:08:42 PM
Malize, those are all fine, though keep in mind that once the Field Consul (Julius iirc) leaves for battle, he won't be available to add his votes to the Senate. So timing could be an issue there.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 18, 2018, 10:12:33 PM
Just to be clear, Malize, in calling for the vote, you're making those Proposals official. That doesn't necessarily mean you've voted on them yourself yet; so that will need a little clarification.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 18, 2018, 10:36:04 PM
Understood
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 18, 2018, 10:37:34 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on December 18, 2018, 10:08:42 PM
Malize, those are all fine, though keep in mind that once the Field Consul (Julius iirc) leaves for battle, he won't be available to add his votes to the Senate. So timing could be an issue there.

So the fc is dispatched as soon as there's enough votes in favor to send him?  Just for clarification
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 19, 2018, 04:38:08 AM
Sorry guys, I've been away a few days. Can I retroactively vote for conviction and get the faction Influence bonus?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 19, 2018, 09:30:05 AM
Quote from: Erax on December 19, 2018, 04:38:08 AM
Sorry guys, I've been away a few days. Can I retroactively vote for conviction and get the faction Influence bonus?

You can only get the bonus if your position wins. E.g. if you vote for Conviction, he'd have to be Convicted for your senators with knights to get the influence bonus. But that turned out to be impossible in this case: too much majority in favor of Acquittal.

Or that's currently the rule. I thought about having activist-knight senators get the Influence win or lose for making political hay out of the situation, and I may still go to that. I took a little more conservative position for testing game balance: figuring I could add it a lot less painfully later, than take it out if it overbalanced too much!

As things stand, I'm not sure the Progressives are being given enough encouragement (or temptation ;) ) to trigger their activist abilities by choosing to vote critically (including against themselves where appropriate). So I have been thinking about adjusting the rule upward, so to speak, so that any activist Progressive vote adds the influence bonus. But if so, I may halve the influence gain. (Currently at 2, or 4 for voting critically against yourself.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 19, 2018, 09:34:52 AM
Quote from: malize on December 18, 2018, 10:37:34 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on December 18, 2018, 10:08:42 PM
Malize, those are all fine, though keep in mind that once the Field Consul (Julius iirc) leaves for battle, he won't be available to add his votes to the Senate. So timing could be an issue there.

So the fc is dispatched as soon as there's enough votes in favor to send him?  Just for clarification

Yes, he departs immediately.

This rule also affects sending out the Roman Consul with a Force. If the RomCons is still acting as Presiding Magistrate when that happens, then the Senate immediately closes for the Turn! -- due to the rule that if the PM leaves without ensuring the continuance of PM functionality, then the Senate must close. (This affects PMs being sent to Govern a Province, too: a whole other large functionality that has technically opened up in this Era, but which hasn't become a factor yet.)

The way around that, is for the current PM to step down as PM allowing the post to devolve onto the next available senator. But then of course that senator becomes the one who can offer unlimited Proposals without needing an expendable Tribune card, so for the plan to continue after the current PM leaves it's important that the new PM be willing to support the former PM being dispatched on whatever. (Or a coterie needs to be prepared with Tribunes in favor of the plan.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 19, 2018, 09:40:57 AM
Ok cool thx.  I'm holding my ayes until the end for that technical reason, but you can tack them as the final vote to speed processing

Also wanted to add as a general note that I selected the progressives because the pont max position should be safe there for some turns, the progs not being so powerful that them holding the position adds overly much to their perceived threat, plus the powers of pm may sit better in the weaker/est factions hands as a balance vs the three greater factions

I believe this is a good recipe for senate stability going forward
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 19, 2018, 09:57:38 AM
Quote from: malize on December 19, 2018, 09:40:57 AM
Ok cool thx.  I'm holding my ayes until the end for that technical reason, but you can tack them as the final vote to speed processing.

In the current proposal order, that won't matter: Field Consul Julius (I think I recall him being the FC) will be Deployed under the second Proposal, and any Proposal after that won't have his votes pro or con.

If you want the FC's votes to help the rest of your Proposal list, then shift his Deployment down to the final Proposal, and add that you'll declare the senate closed once he leaves.


Having said that, I'll allow Tribune play to interrupt the Proposal list, whether with vetos or with other Proposals.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 19, 2018, 12:14:01 PM
Yea to all proposals.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 19, 2018, 05:57:27 PM
Quote from: malize on December 18, 2018, 09:50:06 PM
For simplicities sake I'll lay out the issues for the senate to vote on by bullet point and factions can vote in any order on each item (these are all yea/nay)

1) raise all available legions

2) place all legions under field consul vs 1st samnite war (iirc)

3) remove acilius as pontmax

4) appoint calpurnicus of the progressives as new pont max

Jason step in if I've messed something up

The militarists are voting all yes on proposal's #1 and 2.  However, since Julius is now off prosecuting the Saminite war, are we voting on #3 and 4, or do we have to call a roll for it? 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 19, 2018, 07:28:22 PM
Quote from: Tripoli on December 19, 2018, 05:57:27 PM
Quote from: malize on December 18, 2018, 09:50:06 PM
For simplicities sake I'll lay out the issues for the senate to vote on by bullet point and factions can vote in any order on each item (these are all yea/nay)

1) raise all available legions

2) place all legions under field consul vs 1st samnite war (iirc)

3) remove acilius as pontmax

4) appoint calpurnicus of the progressives as new pont max

Jason step in if I've messed something up

The militarists are voting all yes on proposal's #1 and 2.  However, since Julius is now off prosecuting the Saminite war, are we voting on #3 and 4, or do we have to call a roll for it?

By what he said if it's (your senator leaving Rome) not majoritied before you vote then his votes would go towards the totals until his departure is mandated... unless I'm wrong
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 19, 2018, 07:45:19 PM
Julius' votes count until he leaves Rome. After he goes to War, he (and his knights) can't vote in the Senate on further topics until he returns.

Okay, let me catch up!

Proposal #1: Spend 3x10 Talents to raise the next three available Legions from the Force Pool.

Enough Factions have voted yes for this to pass, so I'm going to process it.

Republic cash down 30 from 196 to 166. 11th, 12th, and 13th Legions are mustered to the Active Pool.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 19, 2018, 07:56:23 PM
Proposal #2: Deploy Field Consul Julius along with all 13 Legions to fight the 1st Samnite War.

Enough Factions have voted yes for this to pass, and Malize hasn't yet shifted this Proposal to a later stage in his list (after some opportunities), so I'm going to process it.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/1489/Qrjz0j.jpg)

I thought it would be appropriate for the poor little Samnites to look like Bambi about to be flattened by Godzilla...  >:D

Julius leaves Rome with all 13 Legions to attack the 1st Samnite War. Militarist voting reduces by 3 Ora and 4 knights to 9.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 19, 2018, 08:21:37 PM
Proposal #3: Remove the PontMax Office from Acilius.

This needs a vote majority greater than 66 percent. I tried my best to explain that under the current proposal order, Julius will depart from Rome taking his votes with him, and thus won't be available for voting on subsequent proposals, specifically the Acilius removal.

I want to be fair about this, because everyone still learning the game on one hand, but on the other hand a character's office (though at least not his life) is at stake.  :-\

Sending Julian out before the PontMax Removal vote, is going to reduce the resulting votes 'for' down by 7 points, to 48. AzTank has indicated in a public chat (not in this forum) that he'll be voting AGAINST removing Acilius, so every other player (aside from Az and the Frog) had to agree with all their senators to edge out over the 66% limit. With Julius gone, there's still a solid majority -- but it's only 48 out of 82 total votes, or 58.5%.

And that isn't enough, for the unique >66% rule on this voting topic, to remove Acilius.

I'll pause here to allow Malize to make an appeal that he didn't understand what I was trying to tell him about sending Julius to War removing his voting ability from the Senate on subsequent Proposals. I wasn't trying to be obtuse, exactly, but I didn't think it would be fair for me to explicitly spell out that keeping Julius' Deployment in the current Proposal order will cause the Removal Proposal to fail.  :-\
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 19, 2018, 09:44:28 PM
everyone voted on the items as given in a certain order, it'd be wrong for me to alter the order after the fact

We can chock this one up as a learning moment and I'll accept the results they stand
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 19, 2018, 10:17:22 PM
I'll still hold off a little while for the conclusion of some p-mail discussions which might or might not make a difference.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 20, 2018, 09:04:58 AM
Consensus seems to be that the current coterie will stand pat with a couple of warning shots across the Plutocrats' bow.

And the Frog sends in from chat that Acilius will grant Furius of the Conservatives a minor priesthood, before the Senate Phase ends.

With that, I think we're done for this Phase? I'll process after work this afternoon.  O:-)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 20, 2018, 05:49:33 PM
The Frog rewards AzTank's public willingness to help him, by having Acilius grant a minor priesthood to Faction Leader Furius. Influence goes up 1 point to 9; total goes up to 15.

With nothing else useful to do, this ends the Senate Phase.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 20, 2018, 06:11:18 PM
TURN EIGHT -- COMBAT PHASE
-----------------------------------

Julius of the Militarists vs the 1st Samnite War!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/1489/Qrjz0j.jpg)

Number of Legions: 13
Julius Mil skill: +8 (all used)
War's land strength: -2

With a +19 Dice Roll Modifier, no other result than a Disaster, Standoff, or Victory with no casualties is possible. And the D/S chances are absolutely minimum at 3 and 18 respectively.

The dice roll functionality has still not been added back to the Groghead forum, so you'll just have to trust me as I roll the TTS dice...

2+2+6 avoids either D/S result, and would normally be a Stalemate with 3 unit casualties; but +19 that's a win with no casualties.
Unrest -1 down to 3. Republic's income permanently increases by 10 to 60 Talents per turn. The 14th and 15th Legions are added to the logistic Force Pool. No Enemy Leader, so the Spolia Opima Event remains active. The War is discarded.

Julius increases his Popularity and Influence each by half the War's nominal land strength of 2, so by 1 point up to 2 and 10 respectively. With no casualties, there is no Popularity lost, nor any mortality chits drawn. Julius marches home to Rome -- bringing all 13 Active Legions with him!

Now that the Early Provincial Era has arrived, surviving Legions will start to level up to Veteran capability! Since this is not a Civil War, and not a Defeat, the oldest non-Vet Legion, the 1st Legion, becomes a Veteran. Julius receives their Loyalty marker.

This ends the Combat Phase.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 20, 2018, 06:43:31 PM
TURN EIGHT -- REVOLUTION PHASE
------------------------------

So. Here we go. The main game has now started with the Early Provincial Era, and that means one Player can henceforth try to win the game all by himself by making one of his senators Emperor. The legal ways have been briefly discussed already: election or automatic appointment of a sufficiently Influential senator to the office of Consul for Life.

The other way is by revolting against the Senate and successfully prosecuting a Civil War.

This is the Phase where Players may make a Declaration of Civil War. That's why it was always called the Revolution Phase!

Only two kinds of senators may open a Rebellion: Governors of Provinces (which don't exist yet but which functionality has now unlocked), and Commanders returning from a Victory.

Currently, there's only one valid potential Rebel: Julius of the Militarists. Insert historical irony here... ;)

Previously, all the Legions simply returned to the Active Pool after a Victory. Now, though, they're coming back with their Victorious Commander! So Julius will either hand over the Legions back to Rome, or Rebel with them.

Tripoli may choose for Julius to Rebel or not, during or after the normal cardplay of Concessions and Statesmen. But he must tell me one way or the other before I can finish this Phase and start the next Turn.

Only senators from Tripoli's Militarist Faction may join his Rebellion, but they aren't obligated to. If his Rebellion fails, they'll die along with Julius, so having a reserve of senators is usually a good idea -- especially if they have nothing to contribute to the success of the Rebellion! Interactions between Tripoli's loyal and rebel senators will be minimized by the rules, however. Secondary rebels in the Faction cannot ever take over as the Prime Rebel.

Any rebelling senator must check how many Legions (and Fleets once you start getting those) will follow him. And each rebelling senator can (and should!) check allegiances before declaring rebellion. Once a Player declares Rebellion, it cannot be undone, even if allegiance hasn't yet been checked for some or any units.

Checking allegiance is not yet a declaration of rebellion, nor does it shift units around yet, but it must be done publicly (and so it necessarily signals to all other Players that the checking Player is thinking of Rebellion!!)

Using Tripoli as a handy example: all non-disbanded Veteran Legions whose chits the senator owns, will automatically join his Rebellion, including from the Active Pool or from other Commands (whether in the field or themselves returning Victoriously!) So he would definitely get the allegiance of the 1st Legion. If Tripoli had any Governing senators, all their Provincial army and/or navy forces (above the Base Strengths of the Province), plus all Garrison Legions, will also automatically join them in Rebellion. That includes any Veteran Garrison Legions, but the Loyalty owners of any Veterans can call them to switch sides at any time, including in the middle of a fight!

Non-veteran Legions coming back from War will then roll for loyalty to the Victorious Commander -- Julius in this example. For each unit being rolled, Julius can sacrifice 1 Talent from his personal cash (and/or from his Master of Horse if he has one), to improve his roll by 1 point. The decision on how much cash to spend must be made before the first die roll check! (For example Julius would have to dice in any case for the loyalty of all 12 other Legions he's bringing back, but he'd have to decide how many of the 2 Talents currently in his Treasury he'd spend on bribes. Each Talenton would buff the roll of one Legion.)

The unit rebels with the senator if the (possibly adjusted) roll >=5. This becomes easier in the succeeding Eras (by one point each Era)!

Should Tripoli choose to remain loyal, his Victorious senators (Julius in this case) give back all Forces to the Active Pool, including all Veteran Legions. He still retains the loyalty chits of any Legions who have become Veterans under his Command, but the Vets can now be assigned to other Commanders (including as Garrisons to Governors) for typical Force Deployments.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 20, 2018, 07:10:05 PM
Meanwhile, the usual Revolution Phase things also go on. Specifically, if anyone wants to trade or donate cards, you can do so with instant arrival at this time.

More specifically, anyone who has a Concession, or a valid Statesman to play, can play any or all of them now. I have sent p-mails to various players for various reasons.  ^-^ If you didn't get one, never mind, maybe next time.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 20, 2018, 11:00:17 PM
Despite having 13 legions under my command, I return to my humble farm after crushing Rome's enemies. Quick question. I'm really not interested in having a legion be loyal to me. If we are doing house rules, possibly on that allows a commander to forgo a loyal legion in exchange for influence may be worth considering
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 21, 2018, 08:50:55 AM
Quote from: Tripoli on December 20, 2018, 11:00:17 PM
Despite having 13 legions under my command, I return to my humble farm after crushing Rome's enemies. Quick question. I'm really not interested in having a legion be loyal to me. If we are doing house rules, possibly on that allows a commander to forgo a loyal legion in exchange for influence may be worth considering

There is a rule for this, but it requires sacrificing the Legion's veterancy. Next Turn, during your Forum Round, you can retire the Legion for a small boost in... I forget what, Oratory and Pop maybe. (Edited to specify: +1 each Inf and Ora.) The Legion can be called up again but only under certain conditions, and they lose their vet status. (Edited to specify: Disbanded Vets lose their Vet Status if the senator holding their allegiance chit dies. Otherwise they retain it, and will return as Vets. This balances them still being experienced vs. growing old and dying themselves, to be replaced by the normal logistic pool recruits.)

On the other hand, having some Vets loyal to you can make the difference in someone else's rebellion failing, since you can thereby ensure those Vets stay loyal to the Republic!

If other Players are suspicious about it, well, that's part of the game. ;) But you can get around that by making a Public Contract forbidding any or all of your current senators, or forbidding your whole Faction permanently, from ever rebelling against Rome.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 21, 2018, 11:54:47 AM
The Senate can also remove a disbanded legion's allegiance by raising it (there is one condition, all other non-disbanded legions must have been raised already). It's not clear that the associated Senator loses their Inf/Ora bonus in this case, but since they must surrender their allegiance marker and I believe the marker confers the bonus, it seems to me that's how it goes.

Disbandment happens at the start of the Revolution Phase, before a commander rebels or returns to Rome (though I suggest we let Julius do this out of sequence this turn).
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 21, 2018, 02:10:35 PM
Yes, if the Senate votes to Recall any Disbanded Veterans, then any senators they're loyal too will lose the allegiance chit, thus also lose the Inf/Ora bonus for having Disbanded them.

The same is true if a Consul (either one) or a Dictator Recalls a Disbanded Veteran, which any of them can do at will without needing a Senatorial vote. Also, unlike the Senate, a Consul or Dictator's Recall doesn't require all normal Legions to be Raised from the Force Pool first.

(The rules explicitly say the Vet's chit goes to the Bank when Disbanded, which for TTS would mean going into the Legion Bag, where the sorting code would flip them to their first side. But for all practical purposes, Disbanded Veteran Legions go to the Force Pool anyway, so that's where I would send them. The rules are clear enough about when they can and cannot be Recalled, so being in the Force Pool shouldn't be confusing. I've been intending to clarify this in the Sabrerules but haven't gotten around to it: the Disbanded Vets might as well be in the Force Pool.)


However! -- I'll have to dispute that Disbanding happens before their Commander chooses whether or not to rebel or stay loyal. I think the rules are quite clear that the Disbanding of Veteran Legions happens after the Revolution Phase, during the subsequent Forum round of the Commander they became Veteran under (thus who owns their allegiance chit). They don't have to have become Veteran that particular Turn -- they could have become Veteran 10 Turns ago -- but the senator they're loyal to must have just Commanded them Victoriously in a War.

From my summary of the Forum Phase rules:
Quote3.5.0) A Victorious, non-rebel Commander, who returned from War last turn, may Disband any Veteran Legions whose Allegiance chits he holds and which he commanded last turn.
3.5.1) Each such Legion's Allegiance chit flips to disbanded.
3.5.2) Each such Legion goes to the Bank (not the Force Pool), still flipped to show Veterancy. (These retired Veteran Legions may need to have a special place made on or near the board..)
3.5.3) The senator gains +1 Oratory and +1 Influence for each disbanded Legion.

(Point 2 obviously should be clarified that for simplicity's sake, the Disbanded Vet Legion goes to the Force Pool, only to be Raised again (or Recalled rather) under specific rules elsewhere.)

Julius, as our current example, or Tripoli rather playing Julius, decides first, during the Revolution Phase, whether to give the Legions, including his Veteran, back to the Republic or not. He chose not to rebel, and so to give back the Legions. They're in the Active Pool now, including the Veteran 1st Legion, and Julius has the I Legion's loyalty chit. Tripoli has the opportunity next Turn, during his Forum round, to Disband them if he wants, sending the Vet Legion to the Force Pool (in effect) and flipping his loyalty chit to show the Inf/Ora bonus.

Once he does that, only the Senate (by vote) or a Consul or Dictator (by direct command) can Raise them again. They will still be Vets if so, but Julius will lose their loyalty chit (and thus his Inf/Ora bonus).

If Julius dies while still holding their Disbanded chit, then that goes back to the bag (obviously) and in effect the Vet Legion in the Force Pool gets flipped to its normal side, become available to Raise normally again.

If Julius dies while holding the Loyalty chit (not yet Disbanded), then the Vet Legion stays Vet: it's still Active somewhere, and not in the Force Pool. But naturally the dead Julius can't call upon them any more, whether to rebel or to protect against rebellion. Nor can the new Julius when-if-ever the family returns to political action.

(The exception there would be AzTank's Conservative Faction: if he has a Statesman whose family is already politically active, thus under the Statesman, then per his Faction's special ability the family Senator inherits all chits if the Statesman dies. That includes the Loyalty / Disbanded status chit.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 21, 2018, 02:49:53 PM
Meanwhile! -- welcome two new Statesmen into the fraternity of senators! Or one new Statesman and one grumpy old Statesman!  >:D

Specifically, Malize plays to his Populist mat: Marcus Portius Cato Seniorem!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/6195/O60R4f.jpg)

Cato may suck at military command and (amazingly) at Influence (at least originally), but he's got a 10 Loyalty score and brings 6 votes through his Oratory! Populist vote tally goes up to 20 (which I think is the new high watermark for normal votes?) and total Influence to 12.

This is the first true Early Era Statesman we've seen, and he's showcasing a few special abilities not yet seen either. First, he's one of those Statesmen who are also a Tribune (or he has permanent access to one perhaps -- I don't recall the historical Cato being a Tribune himself). That means Malize can always throw at least one Tribune effect each Senate Phase! I'll have to create a little marker to track this (and for a few other similar Statesmen along the way), probably a little Early Tribune card  I can 'tap out' when used to show it needs recharging.

Second, he can muster another 6 Votes, pro or con, on Law Proposals. We haven't seen any Laws yet in the game, but they're coming. (If you're wondering why this is printed in blue, that's because Law Votes are an advanced rule, which yes we'll be using.) I'll talk about Laws when the time comes. All you-all need to know right now, is that they are special Scenario cards drawn while going through the Era Decks.

Third, Cato is our first example of a Statesman with a provisional Loyalty. Normally it's 10, but if he's ever in the same Faction as one of the Flaminian or Scipian Statesmen (not simply their families), then he cannot stand working with them, so his Loyalty goes to zero. That doesn't mean he immediately abandons his Faction, but it does mean his Loyalty won't count against Persuasion attempts!


The last thing to note is that his family #22 isn't politically active yet, so if he's still alive when his family card shows up, then Malize will get the card.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 21, 2018, 03:23:33 PM
Erax correctly points out that the current (April 2018) Living Rules do state that the opportunity to Disband Vet Legions happens during the Revolution Phase, not (as I somehow thought!) during the subsequent Forum Phase.

I didn't intend that as a house rule improvement -- I really thought the Living Rules went with the Forum Phase for this -- so I have corrected the Sabrerules flowsheet accordingly over in the information thread, along with some other clarifications I had been planning anyway.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 21, 2018, 03:36:17 PM
Moving along then to our second new Statesman...

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/9827/1OaMQW.jpg)

AzTank plays Lucius Aemilius Paullus Macedonicus to the Conservative Faction!

This powerhouse brings the Conservative Normal Vote Tally up to 13, and their Total Influence up to 19.

He's also familiar with Macedonian terrain, so he can void D/S results when fighting any Macedonian War!

However, notice a big distinction between the new Statesmen and the pre-Earlies here: the new Statesmen cannot void Enemy Leader D/S results. I expect the difference comes from the pre-Early expansion having been designed for the Avalon Hill rules, and these Statesmen belonging to the heavily revised and updated Valley Hill rules.

Family #19 should be showing up soon, but isn't active yet, so when their family card shows up AzTank will be able to claim it if PaulMac is still alive.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 21, 2018, 03:50:24 PM
This effectively ends the Revolution Phase. As usual I'll allow some retroactive card trading to automatically happen for a reasonable time; and also (since I was wrong about the timing for Disbandment) whether Tripoli chooses to sacrifice Rome's first Veteran Legion for his own political advancement. ;)

TURN NINE -- MORTALITY PHASE
----------------------------

The earliest Immanent War of each Type goes Active now: specifically the 2nd Samnite War. It has no Enemy Leader.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/8378/1Rg0us.jpg)

The 3rd (and final) Samnite War remains Immanent for now.

As you may notice, the 2nd Samnite War is a little more likely to cause D/S problems, especially Disasters (12.5% chance) -- but once beaten, the Republic permanently benefits from a massive increase in yearly income and logistic capabilities.



Shuffling the Sack of Death pulls a blank, no effect.

Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 21, 2018, 04:43:46 PM
TURN NINE -- REVENUE PHASE
--------------------------

I'm going to test a house rule going forward, that minor priesthoods each generate 1 Talent of income. Currently there isn't much ongoing reason to care about being a priest, and it's odd that the PontMax can earn up to 6 Talents each Turn while the minor priests get nothing. If Players generally hate this change, don't worry, I can change it back.

First Revenue segment, Faction Incomes!

I.I.'s Aristocrats have 9 starting cash; +25 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator income; +7 knight income; +2+2 Tax Farming; +3 Harbor Fees; +1 minor priest
= new Faction total 54 Talents!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/7700/ZhRrJL.jpg)


Tripoli's Militarists have 4 starting cash; +16 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator income; +7 knight income; +2+2 Tax Farming
= new Faction total 36 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/240/RYVDS5.jpg)


The Frog's Plutocrats have 4 starting cash; +9 personal cash; 5+1+1 senator (Plutocrat bonus) income; +7+7 (Plutocrat bonus) knight income; +1 priest income; 1d6 = +1 PontMax income
= new Faction total 36 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/4639/45QGhm.jpg)


AzTank's Conservatives have 36 starting cash; +2 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator income; +4 knight income; +2 priests income
= new Faction total 49 Talents!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/2716/fwFavv.jpg)


Malize's Populists have 3 starting cash; 0 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator income; +3 knight income; +3 Mining Concession
= new Faction total 14 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/8899/pd8dfS.jpg)


Erax's Progressives have 0 starting cash; +16 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator income; +3 knight income; +2+2 Tax Farming
= new Faction Total 28 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/3513/h3I4k6.jpg)

Rome currently has 166 Talents, with a new normal income of 60 Talents, and with standing expenses of -2x13 units and -10 for an Active War.



2nd Income Segment now starts: Faction distributions and possibly donations, whether to each other or -- for an Inf boost -- to the Republic. (1 Inf for 10 Talents; 3 for 25; 7 for 50.)

Players should also plan ahead for which senator will try to persuade a knight (and how much personal cash to sacrifice); and some Players may wish to consider shifting their Faction Leader.

Moreover, Sponsoring Games remains available for one senator per Faction, and there's still an uncommitted family Senator hanging around in the Forum to be Persuaded...

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/6218/nKQJiK.jpg)

...although his smug 28 Talents will make that super hard! Keep in mind that a senator can only spend personal cash bribing a senator for Persuasion, while other Factions counter-bribe with Faction cash. (Which is how Sulpy there got so rich as to be practically independent from Factional influence. ;) )
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 21, 2018, 05:00:46 PM
7 to junius for games (bonus to Cato)
5 to Cato for knight

Faction leader to Cato
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on December 21, 2018, 05:36:04 PM
9 per senator, the rest in faction. 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 21, 2018, 07:04:59 PM
All three of my senators will make a donation of 10 talents (bonus influence to Cornelius). Of the remainder, 15 to Cornelius, 5 to Quinctius.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 21, 2018, 07:14:47 PM
Quote from: IncompetentIdiot on December 21, 2018, 07:04:59 PM
All three of my senators will make a donation of 10 talents (bonus influence to Cornelius). Of the remainder, 15 to Cornelius, 5 to Quinctius.

This is a genius way to exploit his Faction's special ability, by the way; and yes, I've double checked, it's entirely legal for multiple senators to donate to the Republic per Turn. Some other things, like Sponsoring Games or Persuading a knight or Persuading a senator, can only be done once per Turn (though all of those could be done by the same senator). But everyone can donate.

Having said that, Corny can't take all three Aristocratic bonus farmed influence, because he himself is generating one of those bonus points. He can take two points (from the other two guys), but his bonus point has to go to one of them.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 21, 2018, 07:23:17 PM
I thought I started with 12 cash, +12 income = 24? If so, 15 Flaminius, 3 to each of the others, 3 in FT.

If it is 28, then 16 to Flaminius, 4 to each of the others and 4 in FT.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 21, 2018, 07:40:43 PM
Quote from: Erax on December 21, 2018, 07:23:17 PM
I thought I started with 12 cash, +12 income = 24? If so, 15 Flaminius, 3 to each of the others, 3 in FT.

If it is 28, then 16 to Flaminius, 4 to each of the others and 4 in FT.

You definitely had.... oh, bugger. 3 senators times 4 personal cash each = 12 not 16. Lord help me, I genuinely cannot be trusted with even the simplest math.  :pullhair:
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 21, 2018, 08:24:55 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on December 21, 2018, 07:14:47 PM
Quote from: IncompetentIdiot on December 21, 2018, 07:04:59 PM
All three of my senators will make a donation of 10 talents (bonus influence to Cornelius). Of the remainder, 15 to Cornelius, 5 to Quinctius.

This is a genius way to exploit his Faction's special ability, by the way; and yes, I've double checked, it's entirely legal for multiple senators to donate to the Republic per Turn. Some other things, like Sponsoring Games or Persuading a knight or Persuading a senator, can only be done once per Turn (though all of those could be done by the same senator). But everyone can donate.

Having said that, Corny can't take all three Aristocratic bonus farmed influence, because he himself is generating one of those bonus points. He can take two points (from the other two guys), but his bonus point has to go to one of them.
Right, Quinctius will take that one.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 21, 2018, 10:10:18 PM
25 to Aelius, 5 each to Julius  6 to faction cash
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 22, 2018, 01:15:44 PM
Quote from: Tripoli on December 21, 2018, 10:10:18 PM
25 to Aelius, 5 each to Julius  6 to faction cash

By "5 each" you would normally mean to each of the other two guys, but mathematically you mean 5 to Julius and none to Manlius keeping 6 in Faction cash. Right?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on December 22, 2018, 05:47:26 PM
 I will give 4 to each of my guys   Paulus will spend 2 to get knight.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 22, 2018, 09:01:04 PM
That ended segment 2.

Segment 3, Republic income: 196 starting cash; +60 income; -2x13 Legions; -10 Active War (Immanent Wars don't cost anything) = new Republic total 220 Talents!

This ends the Revenue Phase.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 22, 2018, 09:22:19 PM
TURN NINE -- FORUM PHASE
------------------------

The Spolia Opima Event remains active in the Forum. No other events to discard.

Malize controls the HRAO, so will start the rounds, rolling a 2+6 which isn't a 7, so he draws a Scenario card: a red-text Faction card to his hand face down (his 3rd card).

Malize (per prior instructions) will shift Faction leader to Cato, and sacrifice his 5 for Cato's first knight. (Vote tally up to 21.) Junius will sacrifice his 7 for Level 1 games (unrest down 1 to 2; popularity up 1 to 3, vote tally up 1 to 22), and give the extra Popularity point spawned (per Populist ability) to Cato for his first pop point (vote tally up 1 again to 23).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 22, 2018, 10:12:33 PM
Erax's Progressives roll a 4+2, which isn't a 7 the other way around, and draws a Scenario card:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/2360/RpCLjS.jpg)

The 1st Punic War!

Now things are about to get real.  >:D

As you can see from the white border, as well as the format change, this is the first Early War card we've drawn; and incidentally also the very first card, 001, of the whole main Republic-of-Rome card set! The format of these cards are a little different and more complex than what we've seen so far, so I'll take some time to discuss it.

As with the prior War cards from the fan expansion, each set of main-game War cards features a unique graphic, the charging elephant with spearmen for the Punics. On the bottom right corner, as noted, is simply the serial number, 001 in this case. (This is how I also checked to make sure I had scanned all the cards.) Above it is a stack of "35" coins: the spoils for Victory over this War. The D/S numbers you should already understand to be the 3d6 combat dice totals which will trigger a Disaster or Standoff. For this war, however, there are two possible Standoff triggers: 11 and 13!

Above that, are three numbers. The crossed sword-number at the top is the Land Strength, represented on prior wars with a shield and sword in the bottom right corner. So far the toughest War in front of the Republic was the 3rd Samnite war, Immanent for next Turn, at 8. Now you've got a Force 10 War to deal with.

Worse, and perhaps more importantly, this is a Naval War which will require fleets; meaning that Fleet capability has now been unlocked! Just like historically, the Republic starts with no fleets. Your logistic capability for Fleets mirrors your Legions, so I'm putting 15 Fleets into the Force Pool. They'll cost 10 Talents each to Raise, just like Legions; and 2 Talents each Turn for upkeep, just like Legions. They cannot ever become Veteran, however. (Nor can they be sent to Garrison a Province.)

The anchor with the 5 next to it, means that in order to attack this War you must send 5 Fleets with your Commander and Legions: you're anchoring off the coast as a logistic supply train.

The ship with the 10 next to it, means that before you can attack this war you will have to score a victory over a Force 10 Naval Strength! You'll need Fleets to do that, just like Legions for fighting a Land War. You can bring Legions along, if you're confident (or desperate) about punching through the Enemy Fleets, but the Legions can't help in the sea battle, and they'll take casualties equal to your Fleets. The advantage is that if you do have Legions with you, and if you have the minimum sea logistic level remaining (5 Fleets in this case), your Commander can go on immediately to attack the War on Land. And just like a Land War, a Commander will score personal glory for a Naval Victory. Also like a Land War, once you score a Naval Victory against a War, you never need to worry about that particular Naval Fight again; but also like a Land War, there is no such thing as eroding the Enemy Naval Strength. It will always be 10 until you gain Victory over it; and usually it will be eroding away Rome's Fleets meanwhile.

You may notice there's no War Cost printed on this card. That's because all Wars in the main rules -- meaning from this War onward -- will cost 20 Talents, not 10 (like the remaining Samnite Wars), per Turn during the Revenue Phase.

The card in the upper left side clearly states there are 3 Wars in the set of "Punic Wars". The 2 in parenthesis afterward, means you can expect two of those Wars in this Era. Just like the Samnite Wars, Early Era Wars won't evaporate if they're still around when the Middle Era starts! -- so it's theoretically possible you could be fighting all three Wars at once (though you're lucky to get this one early so they'll be spread out more.)

The middle of the left side indicates that this War starts Inactive, where I've slotted it on the board. It'll stay here, not causing trouble, until the 2nd Punic War comes along, or until you attack it -- or until a Punic Enemy Leader arrives! (The card doesn't mention this, but an Enemy Leader will immediately Activate it.)

This is the first War we've seen in the game, where defeating it will create a Province -- in this case, two Provinces! We'll cross those bridges when we get to them.

Last, but not least, just like the pre-Early Matching Wars, simultaneous Wars of a set will multiply each other's Land and Fleet strengths by the number of Active Matching Wars!

Phew! That's enough to chew on for the new War cards. ...oh, one more thing: senators acting as Commanders are not so much field commanding as providing logistic and other support efficiencies for their Force. So any senator will be equally effective at Fleet command as at Legion command.

Erax didn't give me any instructions, so I'll pause to hear from him.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 23, 2018, 02:57:04 AM
Flaminius spends 5 for a guaranteed Knight.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 23, 2018, 07:02:29 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on December 22, 2018, 01:15:44 PM
Quote from: Tripoli on December 21, 2018, 10:10:18 PM
25 to Aelius, 5 each to Julius  6 to faction cash

By "5 each" you would normally mean to each of the other two guys, but mathematically you mean 5 to Julius and none to Manlius keeping 6 in Faction cash. Right?

Yes.  I had intended to give 5 to Julius and Manlius, with one in faction cash but changed my mind.  25 to Aelius, 5 to Julius, 0 to Manlius, 6 to Faction cash
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 23, 2018, 11:02:15 AM
Flaminius spends 5 of his 15 cash for a guaranteed 3rd knight (Normal Vote Tally up to 9), and things move along.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 23, 2018, 11:03:10 AM
I.I.'s Aristocrats roll 3+6, which isn't 7, so he draws a Scenario card: a red-text Faction card face down to his hand (his only one currently). I've sent you a pmail to show what you drew, and under what circumstances you can play it.

I don't have further instructions from I.I. yet so I'll have to pause here.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 23, 2018, 11:24:25 AM
5 on a knight to Quinctius.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 23, 2018, 02:10:48 PM
Tripoli's Militarists roll 5+2=7, so that's a random Event! Further 3d6 roll of 2+5+6=13, on the Early Republic table means... gosh, another Allied Enthusiasm!

I'm not sure I've posted the new Random Event table yet, so:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/7595/ChL1P9.jpg)

Here's what the new main-game Random Event cards look like.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/9472/Ahi2xU.jpg)

This game has had the best luck in random events, I swear. ;)

I've dropped a little marker for the event near the Republic Treasury to resolve next Turn.

Tripoli didn't leave me any instructions, so I'll pause here.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on December 23, 2018, 02:13:04 PM
What does donating to the republic accomplish?
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 23, 2018, 03:59:53 PM
Donating to the Republic, aside from giving the Republic extra cash to pay bills with (and thus avoiding a game-loss condition), earns a senator Influence points (because the donations must come from personal treasuries at the time they receive their income distributions.)

Plutocrat senators have picked up several Influence points over the game so far, doing just this!

I.I. figured out that it was more cost-effective for him to use the Aristocrat special ability by having each of his senators Contribute 10 talents, even though a senator only needs to donate 25 to get 3 Influence points, because the Aristocrats farm influence gains.

For everyone else, to get 3 Influence by donation, a senator should donate 25 Talents, although if you want to spread the gain out you can still donate 10 talents per senator. (Similarly one senator donating 50 Talents can get 7 Influence, which would normally cost 70 talents spread out through multiple senators.)

The Aristocrats, however, generate one extra influence point each time one of their senators gains any amount of influence. So for I.I., 30 Talents spread out 10 each didn't only give him 3 Influence points (spread out 1 Inf each). It actually got him six Influence points for a cost of only 30 Talents!

Technically, Valerius scored 1 Inf, and earned another 1 Inf to give to another senator, which he gave to Cornelius. Quincy scored 1 Inf, and earned another 1 Inf to give to another senator, which he also gave to Cornelius. Then Cornelius scored an Inf point himself, earning another 1 to give to another senator, which he gave to Quinctius.

This Influence farming is only available to the Aristocrats, and it's connected to their knight-activist special ability, which only activates if the Aristocrats have the highest total Influence among the Factions. (The idea here is that Aristocrat knights convince other invisible senators to vote with the Aristocrats based on supporting the winners. ;) That's because Influence is the ultimate scoring factor for the game.)


Donating cash to the Republic's Treasury can only be done during the Revenue Phase, which has already passed for this Turn. But I always try to remind Players during the Faction Income segment what the standard Influence gains are for contributing cash to the Republic's Treasury.  O:-)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 23, 2018, 05:14:17 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on December 23, 2018, 02:10:48 PM


Tripoli didn't leave me any instructions, so I'll pause here.

Sorry.  Julius buys a knight with 5.   I had intended Aelius to selflessly donates 25 to Rome for the Fleets/war effort we will have to raise for Carthage. (and for the 3 influence he gets from it)  However, apparently that phase has passed, so Aelius will just sit here and be rich.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 23, 2018, 10:09:03 PM
Julius spends all 5 of his cash to automatically buy his 5th knight, increasing his Mil skill to freaking 9. :o Vote tally goes up to 17.

The Frog's Plutocrats roll a 2+4, which isn't 7 and so he draws a Scenario: a third Faction card face down to his hand. I've sent him a private chat about it.

I don't have instructions from him yet on what he wants to do, so I'll pause here. AzTank should also be thinking about his plans, since he'll be up next and last for this Turn.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 24, 2018, 09:38:16 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on December 23, 2018, 10:09:03 PM
Julius spends all 5 of his cash to automatically buy his 5th knight, increasing his Mil skill to freaking 9.

That nine military skill will come in very handy here shortly with the Punic wars.  IMHO, depending on the card pulls, we could find ourselves fighting several 8+ strength wars simultaneously.  My idea is that with the maximum number of legions available, Julius and Manlius and effectively prosecute possibly two strong wars simultaneously
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 24, 2018, 10:18:35 AM
This is, indeed, the strength of the Militarists! -- and their political strength, too.

Which comes with political tensions naturally.  >:D Are the other Players so worried about losing that they'll elect the Militarists to Consuls (and/or appoint a Militarist as Dictator plus Master of Horse perhaps), over and over again?

Even if Tripoli binds himself with a Contract never to have any or some or all of his senators seek to be Emperor, he'll be vacuuming up Influence (and Popularity) that the other Players will be missing out on...
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 24, 2018, 10:21:58 AM
Meanwhile, Acilius of the Plutocrats sacrifices 5 of his 9 cash to automatically buy his 2nd minion. Faction vote tally goes up to 15.

I'm still on pause until the Frog clarifies another choice though (having to do with sponsoring games).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 24, 2018, 10:55:32 AM
The Frog's choice on this matter can't affect going forward with AzTank's round, so...

AzTank's Conservatives, going last Round this Turn, roll 2+3, not 7, so draws the final Scenario for this Turn: the Enemy Leader Hamilcar! He immediately joins or activates the earliest available Punic War, i.e. the 1st Punic.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/4677/zZbUuS.jpg)

Merry Yule Tide.  >:D

Per prior instructions, Paulus will gamble 2 of his 4 cash on a knight. He'll thus need 4 or more (50/50 shot) on a 1d6... but he rolls a 1. My condolences.

This technically ends the Forum Phase, but I'll need that clarification from the Frog first about the Games before I continue into the Population Phase (and start the Senate), since the Pop Phase will be affected by his choice.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on December 24, 2018, 07:32:24 PM
I will sponsor games, yes.  Fulvius to do the most expensive games he can afford. 
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 24, 2018, 07:46:40 PM
That'll be Level 1 games for 7 cash. I'll process eventually, but expect some Christmas delays over the next few days...  :coolsmiley:
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 25, 2018, 06:02:04 AM
And now we have two numbers for Disaster and three for Standoff.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 25, 2018, 10:42:22 AM
Quote from: Erax on December 25, 2018, 06:02:04 AM
And now we have two numbers for Disaster and three for Standoff.

True, although if you send a Statesman who's good against the Punic Wars, you can at least nullify those D/S numbers. Enemy D/S cannot be nullified (as far as I know).

Edited to add: I might be able to process the most recent information, down through the Population Phase, into the start of the Senate Phase, this afternoon. If not, it will almost surely not be until tomorrow night, or even Thursday afternoon! -- so if there's a delay, don't worry, the delay is expected (Christmas holidays etc.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 25, 2018, 11:04:11 AM



Meanwhile, y'all can be making preliminary plans about the Consuls -- and about a couple of new offices which have always been potentially possible but which are now valid for the first time: the Dictator and his Master of Horse! That's because you have at least one War with a combined Land and Naval Strength of 20+. (The other condition is to have 3 or more Active Wars, edging up or over the threshold for losing the game!)

The Dic ;) is usually appointed by agreement of the Consuls (and cannot be one of them). Nor can their appointment be vetoed, since it isn't a vote. If they can't agree, then the Senate goes to the normal Proposal process for the Dictator.

Whoever gets elected Dictator will be HRAO, and PM, until and unless he closes the Senate or resigns as PM to leave for War. His Proposals still have to be voted on, but they cannot be vetoed. Like the Consuls he can be Deployed to a War, though strictly speaking he doesn't have to be. Like them if he's still at War at the end of the Combat Phase, he becomes a Proconsul. (There can be any number of Proconsuls out fighting Wars, but a hard limit on three senators going to War in any Turn: the Dictator and the two Consuls.)

The Dictator can (not sure if he must) appoint another senator (not necessarily voluntarily, I'll have to check!) as his Master of Horse, to add Mil skill buffs (but no special abilities) while following him to a War. The MoH can be killed (or captured) just like the Dictator, but doesn't gain any rewards for helping out. At the end of the Combat Phase he comes back to Rome regardless of the result (assuming he survives), since he can only serve a Dictator and the Dictator will either be coming home or staying as a Proconsul. In that sense you can have an absolute maximum of four senators Deploying for War on any Turn (though again, any number of senators can actually be at War as Proconsuls. Or sometimes as Province Governors: some Wars attack Provinces, although the current ones on the table don't.)

The Censor will have to be elected, too. Remember that senators can be immediately re-elected as Censor as often as they're able; the same is true for Dictator. (In fact, Censors can be elected as Dictator, though then they have to give up the Censor office. I think that's true for PontMax-es being elected or appointed as Dictator, too.)

So, y'all have a lot of choices to be pondering over the holidays! -- and two more Legions, if I recall correctly, in the Force Pool, which can be Raised to help with the problem. Plus 15 Fleets!

Keep in mind, that while the Punic War will cost 20 Talents per turn, it won't really hurt anything otherwise (aside from a point of unrest if it isn't prosecuted). In fact, YOU MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO ATTACK IT THIS TURN ANYWAY! -- you've got to punch through its Naval Strength of 10 first. With no navy, currently. Fleets, like Legions, cost 10 Talents each to Raise. (And yes, Enemy Leaders buff their basic Naval Strength, too.)

Whereas, if you diddle around on the Samnite War, you're going to be looking at the 3rd Samnite War joining it next Turn for sure! -- doubling each other's Land Strengths! But: the Samnite Wars will grant permanent boosts to Rome's economic income and logistic capabilities. Relatedly, you can keep in mind that the Immanent Samnite War can be attacked this Turn (if you're willing to deal with it automatically doubling its and the 2nd War's strengths!)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 26, 2018, 08:15:02 AM
If a Dictator is also pontmax, it wouldn't make much sense for a pontmax who was elected dictator to give up the pontmax position...unless he plans on going to war with armies. 
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 26, 2018, 10:42:32 AM
Side note:   If we raise 15 fleets is that gonna cost 150 talents?
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 26, 2018, 12:46:49 PM
Yep, 15 Fleets x 10 Talents per Fleet = 150 Talents!

I think you've got two Legions in the Force Pool, too.

If you punch out the 2nd Samnite War this Turn, you'll upgrade your Force Pool again by... I'm not where I can check easily, it's on the card. Four units? More than usual for gaining logistic territory so far. It'll be both Legions and Fleets.

So, checking the Living Rules: Dictator candidates cannot hold any major office except the Censor, which he then must resign if becoming Dictator. So no, the PontMax cannot (as such) become Dictator, though he can participate in a vote to remove him from that office I suppose. However! -- Removing the PontMax from office (and then assigning a new one) falls under Other Business, and the Dictator appointment/election must precede Censor election. (I'll need to update the Sabrerule compilation flowchart to clarify PontMax cannot be Dictator.)

So, using Acilius as our current example, he can't be appointed or elected as PontMax this Turn, but if he was Removed from office he could be appointed or elected next Turn.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 26, 2018, 01:14:01 PM
Holy cow.  Good thing we've been lucky with money
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 26, 2018, 02:02:45 PM
We've been incredibly lucky with money.

I was going to wait until after Consul elections and the Censor's bit before weighing in on the war situation, but might as well do it now. Considering we have another T$ 50 in extra income arriving next turn, I say we raise everything, then send the fleets vs. Carthage and the legions vs. the Samnites. This will postpone any disputes over who gets to shoot for the Spolia Opima to next turn.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 26, 2018, 03:12:15 PM
Whoever goes after the Punic Fleets, needs to be ready to fight against 13 Fleets in effect (since Ham's +3 bonus will help them, too). All the D/S risks will apply to the naval battle as well.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 26, 2018, 08:56:00 PM
Trying to do some quick catchup tonight before bed. (Early work tomorrow.)

Looking back over the Living Rules again more closely, the question of PontMax office doubling up is sorrrrt of vague (which is why I originally allowed it in the Sabrerule compilation flowchart.) Usually the Living Rules keep Advanced rules (the 2.x set) in mind, listing exceptions or references in light blue. But the rules for office candidacy don't mention the PontMax one way or another; and the PontMax rules say simply that candidates must be aligned senators (i.e. being played by a Player) in Rome.

The implications of the grammar are somewhat contradictive. The main rules clearly state that candidates for various offices above PontMax cannot be currently holding other Major Offices except Censor -- and PontMax in the 2.01.x rules is explicitly a Major Office. But the PontMax qualifications do not state that other Major Offices disqualify candidates, and do not state that a winner must resign from his current Major Office! This fits actual historical examples where the PontMax was also Consul or Dictator or whatever. But then again it would be super-pointless for a senator to continue being PontMax if he leaves Rome for War (or for Governorship -- until legates are introduced later in the game anyway, allowing senators to govern while remaining in Rome for Senate participation.)

There's a similar problem with the Dictator appointing his Master of Horse: there are literally no qualifications listed that I could find! There's a definite implication that some senator fills this duty, because the rules treat the MoH as a separate entity from the Dictator (for example gaining +3 influence, and returning to Rome at the end of the Combat Phase regardless of what's happening with the Dictator.) But nothing seems to state how the MoH is chosen, or his qualifications. The faint inference is that the Dictator simply appoints him by fiat. Usually this sort of action is qualified by stating that the candidate must be a volunteer: Consuls cannot force a senator to be Dictator, for example, and a prosecuted senator cannot force someone to be his Advocate (nor the Censor force a senator to be Prosecutor). But the faint implication here is that the Dictator can force anyone to be his MoH for the Turn, whether in Rome or not, or even if unaligned (like Suply hanging out in the Forum with a ton of cash right now)! It's freaky.... I feel like I must be overlooking something somewhere.

Any other rulehounds want to research these concepts, too, be my guest!! One way or another I've got to provide clear, rational, and feasible rules for these factors going forward.


My provisional compromise so far has been that any other Major Office can also be elected PontMax, and that the PontMax can be elected or appointed to any other (otherwise valid) Major Office (for example the PontMax can be elected Censor but only if also a Prior Consul since that's the main qualification to be Censor); and that these Major Offices can be held concurrently; BUT the PontMax cannot leave Rome including to be a Governor (except by legate later).

Whereas the Dictator must appoint a volunteer as MoH unless no one volunteers, whereupon he can appoint a senator by fiat as long as the senator is not a Governoring at a Province or Captive. That includes Proconsuls already at War, and any Major Offices including PontMax, and unaligned senators in the Forum. That's because the MoH is an entirely temporary office and the senator returns to Rome almost immediately. Consequently he can keep his normal office, just not operate it while off at War for a Phase.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 26, 2018, 09:21:08 PM
Fulvius of the Plutocrats catches up on asynch, and pays 7 cash to Sponsor some level-1 Games. Unrest goes down 1 to 1. Fulv's Pop goes up 1 to 2.

This effectively ends the Forum Phase.

TURN NINE -- POPULATION PHASE
-----------------------------

Cleaning up Rome:

All senators with Major Office gain Major Suspicion.

No Tax Farming Concessions are threatened yet. (A War must be attacking Italy itself for that to happen; 1st Punic War is fought in Sicily and Sardinia.

The Fabian family is the only card waiting in the Curia to respawn. Need a 5 or 6, but they rolled a 2.

No Unprosecuted Wars and no Drought Effects, so no Unrest adjustments prior to the State of the Republic speech. The current HRAO is Roman Consul Junius of the Populists. It's impossible to roll a game-losing result with him as HRAO, and he gets a +4 bonus as a Populist senator. Unrest -1 plus his Pop 3 plus his Faction bonus 4 = +6 to the 3d6 total of... 5+2+1. Total result 14, no change!

With that, the Senate opens. Junius is the Presiding Magistrate.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 26, 2018, 10:34:18 PM
TURN NINE -- SENATE PHASE
-------------------------

STATE OF THE REPUBLIC:
----------------------------

The Republic currently has 196 Talents, with an income of 60, and more Allied Enthusiasm about to add another 50 next Turn. Current expected expenses are -10 and -20 for Active Wars, and -10 for an Immanent War which will activate before the Revenue Phase next Turn. Expected expenses also include -2 x 13 Active Legions. (Vets cost nothing extra for upkeep, though really they should.)

There's a Spolia Opima historical Event in the Forum, and strictly speaking it doesn't distinguish between Land and Naval Victories against an Enemy Leader! However, neither does the prologue fan expansion feature naval battles at all. And, to be fair, while the rules mentioned a Spolia Opima event, they forgot to include any details for it, so its details are totally my invention anyway. ;) So I'm going to rule that claiming it must require a Land Victory over an Enemy Leader, which is certainly the spirit of the event anyway. (I'll try to remember to clarify this rule on the card text soon.)

Unrest is currently 1.


Here's the Immanent War again for convenience:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/8378/1Rg0us.jpg)

And the two Active Wars plus Enemy Leader:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7067/ksWJko.jpg)


And now the Player mats.

I.I.'s Aristocrats have jusssssssst barely edged back into first place, with three well-developed senators, a normal voting tally of 15, a total influence of 50 (the new high watermark if I'm not mistaken), and activist knights for another 8 votes on any topic pro or con -- so effectively 23 votes in the senate (for now). He has also angled leadership over the majority coaltion of minors after the Frog's Plutocrats got too backstabby and overt about concentrating power. Whether or how long he can keep this lead remains to be seen.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/9791/NgEKbF.jpg)


Tripoli's Militarists don't have the raw Influence of the top two (yet), and their 15 votes can never call on any activism. But they have a lot of cash on the board and, more importantly, their increasing military skill makes them proportionately important picks for Consuls and Dictator at a time when Wars against the Republic are ramping up. This makes them a strong 3rd place; and they won't likely stay there for much longer!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/8384/yVZeA4.jpg)


On the balance, I still have to acknowledge 2nd Place to the Frog's Plutocrats. Their 15 votes can never be punched up with activism, but he's generating ever-more-extra cash off his minions; and his senators remain highly influential at a total of 49. He still retains the Pontifex Maximus lifetime office despite clear threats to remove him. And he still retains three cards in his hand, two of which he has held for many turns back into the Latin Era. His main drawback is having lost the leadership he finagled of the three minor factions, isolating himself with the Conservative Party whose downfall he helped precipitate through the first judicial execution a few Turns ago! The Plutocrats may be in a retrenching mode of sorts now, but still command the second most overall powerful faction.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/4668/nFnkYU.jpg)


AzTank's Conservatives are still rebuilding in 5th place after crippling punches of bad luck and treachery; but he has been carefully (one might say conservatively) shepherding the largest Faction Treasury in the game, and he has recently signed on the super-statesman Paullus Macedonicus, who could be considered an effective alternative to granting the Militarists ever-more-power (at least not in a crisis). He has been waved off as irrelevant for a while, however, which has cornered his contributions and growth.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/4228/RyqS1y.jpg)


In some ways, Malize's Populists could be considered third-and-a-half place -- or even higher than third for most practical purposes! His 23 votes can be securely applied on any topic pro or con without the fickleness of the friends of the Aristocratic knights, and he continues to motor along toward his upper popularity limit. His bad luck early in a late start has finally evaporated, and at long last he has signed on a third senator: no less than the super-statesman Cato the Elder! The top three Players may keep a (shuffly) hold on the top three slots for a while, but the Populists are a voting powerhouse to be sought after. (Which has gained them the Roman Consulship for the first time going into this Senate.)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/5371/Fah5dL.jpg)


Erax's Progressives remain in 6th place, unable to shake off the cursed luck of early Turns in their late start. But they're growing steadily stronger; and with Erax's precision and commitment to balancing power across the board, his Faction's influence carries significantly more weight in Republican governance than his stats alone would suggest!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/6900/vxnStP.jpg)


Relatedly, I will be instituting a house-rule adjustment to the Progressive special abilities. Each senator with activist knight votes will now receive +1 Influence win or lose (not +2 for winning only), or +4 Influence win or lose voting critically (for harm or against gain) against gain or for harm of one of his own senators (not only winning Prosecution vote against himself). This will make his activist abilities more relevant -- and more of a temptation to use, to improve his position faster.

To recap the Progressive activist knight triggers, they each bring an extra vote (beyond their own normal vote) for voting against a senator's gain, or for a senator's harm, or when voting on any law pro or con, or when voting for (not against) land bills.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 27, 2018, 12:29:38 PM
Proposing the honorable Cornelius as field consul, Julius as Roman consul

I believe they will be proposing their censor, correct?




Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 27, 2018, 01:04:28 PM
We vote in favor.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 27, 2018, 01:22:15 PM
Quote from: malize on December 27, 2018, 12:29:38 PM
Proposing the honorable Cornelius as field consul, Julius as Roman consul

I believe they will be proposing their censor, correct?

Julius as the PM would be proposing the Censor. Cornelius has no say in that beyond the normal vote of any other senator. (Unless his Player plays a Tribune to make his own Proposition for Censor.)

Together however, the Consuls might be appointing a Dictator! -- you do have that option under the current circumstances. (i.e. you've got at least one Active War with a combined Naval/Land strength of 20+.)

This Turn, first Mandatory Business will be Consul-pair election. (And then between them they work out who will be Roman and Field, though it's okay to signal you've worked that out already in your proposal.)

Second Mandatory Business would be PontMax election but Acilius is still PontMax.

Third Mandatory Business will be Dictator appointment or election (if a Consul agreement about who should be Dictator cannot be reached). If the Consuls decide the Republic doesn't need a Dictator this Turn, then a Tribune can't Propose one either.

Fourth Mandatory business will be the Dictator choosing a Master of Horse -- if there's a Dictator.

Fifth Mandatory Business will be the Roman Consul (or the Dictator if there is one now) Proposing and electing a Censor. The current Censor can be re-elected.

Sixth Mandatory Business will be the Censor deciding whether to Prosecute suspicions this Turn.

Seventh Mandatory Business would be electing Governors for Provinces, but the Republic doesn't have a 'province' yet. (All conquered territory so far is within Rome's direct governance.)

That's all the possible Mandatory Business categories, and it must be done in that sequence. Anything else is Other Business, and can be done in any sequence AFTER Mandatory Business is settled.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 27, 2018, 02:23:00 PM
Thanks, I know that's probably posted somewhere but it helps :)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 27, 2018, 03:24:55 PM
The Aristocrats vote in favour.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 27, 2018, 09:32:43 PM
Argh, backing up a little. I forgot that Julius has already been Field Consul last time, so he can't be either one of the Consuls this time!

Malize remains Roman Consul for now, and must Propose someone else as co-Consul with Cornelius (or another pair altogether).

Don't count Julius out of the action this Turn, though! -- the two new Consuls might decide Rome needs a Dictator, who can also go to War and who will become the Presiding Magistrate until then. And he would need a Master of Horse, so some other high Mil senator could be honored with that post! -- and help put the whomp on the Punic Fleet.

Actually, the most efficient choices would be anyone with a decent Mil for Field Consul, literally anyone else for Roman Consul -- possibly someone from the Plutocrats or the Populists again in case of financial or unrest disaster -- and then Julius for Dictator with Manlius as his Master of Horse. I wouldn't normally make such direct recommendations like this, but I'm partially responsible for not noticing the problem with nominating Julius for Consul again earlier.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 27, 2018, 10:21:24 PM
Either of my other senators could be console as neitherhe was last turn   That would ready Julius for the Carthaginians next turn
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 27, 2018, 11:26:16 PM
Proposing the honorable Cornelius as field consul, Manlius as Roman consul
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 28, 2018, 03:42:17 AM
Our vote remains in favor.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 28, 2018, 06:10:59 PM
I don't think I.I. is going to object (and even if he did, you might have a solid majority already). So I'll proceed.

Cornelius goes up 5 Influence from 15 to 20; and the Aristocrats farm an extra Influence point to be given to someone other than Corny. Faction total Influence will be 56 after this is assigned. (I.I. should tell me where to put the extra point.)

Manlius goes up 5 Influence from 13 to 18; Militarist new total 40 Influence.

Manlius takes over as Presiding Magistrate (and the new HRAO).


Next Mandatory Business is: should a Dictator be appointed (or voted) this Turn? The Dictator is a very temporary point, NOT an Emperor, and would be the new PM (and HRAO); but he would be able to lead a Force of his own to War, along with drafting a senator to boost his headquarters efficiency (in effect) as Master of Horse.

To be appointed without a vote, both the Consuls must agree on the nominee.

To be appointed with a vote, both the Consuls must at least agree that the Republic needs a Dictator even though they cannot agree on who; allowing the PM to open the floor for Proposals.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 29, 2018, 07:54:21 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on December 28, 2018, 06:10:59 PM
...Next Mandatory Business is: should a Dictator be appointed (or voted) this Turn? The Dictator is a very temporary point, NOT an Emperor, and would be the new PM (and HRAO); but he would be able to lead a Force of his own to War, along with drafting a senator to boost his headquarters efficiency (in effect) as Master of Horse.

To be appointed without a vote, both the Consuls must agree on the nominee.

To be appointed with a vote, both the Consuls must at least agree that the Republic needs a Dictator even though they cannot agree on who; allowing the PM to open the floor for Proposals.

I believe we have agreed that no dictator is needed this turn.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 29, 2018, 10:18:00 AM
Quote from: Tripoli on December 29, 2018, 07:54:21 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on December 28, 2018, 06:10:59 PM
...Next Mandatory Business is: should a Dictator be appointed (or voted) this Turn? The Dictator is a very temporary point, NOT an Emperor, and would be the new PM (and HRAO); but he would be able to lead a Force of his own to War, along with drafting a senator to boost his headquarters efficiency (in effect) as Master of Horse.

To be appointed without a vote, both the Consuls must agree on the nominee.

To be appointed with a vote, both the Consuls must at least agree that the Republic needs a Dictator even though they cannot agree on who; allowing the PM to open the floor for Proposals.

I believe we have agreed that no dictator is needed this turn.
This is correct.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 29, 2018, 11:57:36 AM
Next Mandatory Business then is the Proposal and election of the Censor.

Keep in mind that the Censor can be re-elected: the office doesn't have to switch senators every Turn.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 30, 2018, 09:26:05 PM
I nominate flaminus for censer
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 30, 2018, 09:28:42 PM
Voting yes
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 30, 2018, 09:38:56 PM
I feel pretty safe assuming Erax will agree. ;) Probably one more faction vote needed though to be sure of the majority. (But I'll double-check to be sure.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 30, 2018, 09:43:27 PM
Okay, yes, you'll need another Faction besides Erax's Progressives for the majority: technically if the other three all voted against this, they'd win!

You can probably count on I.I.'s Aristocrats. But speaking of them, let me know where your extra farmed Influence point should go. (Not to Cornelius, he generated it.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 30, 2018, 10:15:21 PM
The Aristocrats support Flaminius. Influence to Quinctius.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 31, 2018, 11:11:35 AM
Manlius Proposes Flaminius of the Progressives as the new Censor, and the Populists, Progressives, and Aristocrats agree. Flam's Influence goes up 5 from 11 to 16; new faction total 20. (16 + 2 Calp + 2 Plaut.)

I.I. gives the extra Influence point to Quinctius, up to 19, Faction total up to 56.

Presiding Magistrate post shifts temporarily to Flaminius, for Erax to decide whether there will be any Investigations this Turn. Potential targets:

Progressives themselves: Plautius with 2 minor suspicions.

Aristocrats: Cornelius 1 minor; Valerius 2 minor and 1 Major suspicion.

Militarists: Manlius 1 minor; Julius 1 minor, 1 major suspicion.

Plutocrats: Acilius the PontMax, 1 major suspicion.

Aristocrats: no one.

Populists: Aurelius 1 minor; Junius 1 major suspicion.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 31, 2018, 02:24:37 PM
Acilius the PontMax gives his fellow Plutocrat Claudius a minor priesthood. Claud's influence goes up 1 to 19; total Plutocrat influence up to 50.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on January 02, 2019, 02:32:41 PM
The Office of the Censor opens a Minor investigation of the PontMax, and invites Cato the Elder to be Prosecutor.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on January 03, 2019, 12:29:37 PM
First, I am not guilty of whatever you are prosecuting me for.   

Second, I am the only faction that could possibly get enough influence to keep the Aristocrats in check--right now they are the most influential faction, and they get bonuses when that happens. (I forget what the bonuses are, or I would provide some glorious rhetoric on the dangers posed by Aristocrats--but we all know that Aristocratic rule is fickle and capricious.)

Third, I want the full vote counted, so I know where each faction stands on these frivolous charges.  No one is safe in this system.  To date, I have kept my word and have done no assassinations. 
I did prosecute the Militarists with no warning when they were frontrunners, but they were guilty and we have since made amends. Moreover, I am not the frontrunner, not in a position to grow this turn, and would be happy to provide support to the smaller factions. 


Shouldn't we put these petty disputes behind us an focus on building the empire in a way that will benefit us all? 






Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on January 03, 2019, 04:00:41 PM
Cato will do his duty as requested by the state
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 03, 2019, 05:46:49 PM
This game is just the best.  :smitten:

The Plutocrats prosecuted the Conservatives, not the Militarists, btw. Since then AzTank's Conservatives have been seriously crippled, though partly that was also due to bad luck.

The Frog is entirely correct about the Aristocrats being in the lead -- in fact Cornelius just crossed the 20 point validity to be Proposed as Consul for Life! Being the leader in total Influence means Aristocrat knights bring x2 votes on every topic pro or con. (The Aristocrats are the main reason why I directly track everyone's total Influence for comparison purposes, although it also makes a difference to the end of the game -- if the Republic survives that long!)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 03, 2019, 05:47:43 PM
Quote from: Ethel the Frog on January 03, 2019, 12:29:37 PM
Shouldn't we put these petty disputes behind us an focus on building the empire in a way that will benefit us all?

ACK, HE'S AN IMPERIALIST!

...not helping your case there.  >:D  ;D
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 04, 2019, 06:12:14 PM
Okay, back from work. Let's see where we're at.

The Frog would like AzTank's new Statesman Paullus Macedonicus to Advocate for him. He'll have to check in and agree, but we can move along until the final Trial until then.

There hasn't been a voting order posted yet by Erax/Flaminius.

The Trial starts with Acilius' Influence giving him 16 votes FOR Acquittal.

We can naturally expect the Plutocrats to add another 15 normal votes FOR acquittal for a running total of +31.

Technically the Frog hasn't voted yet however! -- I'm just reporting an expectation. He reserves the right to make a Popular Appeal when the time comes for the Plutocrats to vote.

In a similar vein, although he hasn't actually voted yet, we can expect Erax's Progressives to put in -9 votes, with another -4 activist knight votes, producing an expected net +18 votes FOR Acquittal.

Malize hasn't accepted Cato the elder as Prosecutor yet, much as AzTank hasn't accepted Paullus as Advocate yet. IF they do, we could expect -23 normal votes (including popularity) from the Populists, and +13 from the Conservatives. (NOTE! -- the Conservative activist vote only activates when opposing Proposals, which this trial is not!)

Current running tally then:

Acilius Influence +16
This is the only figure we know for sure yet.

Plutocrat vote +15 (expected)
Progressive vote -9 (expected)
Progressive activist vote -4 (expected)
Populist vote -23 (expected)
Conservative vote +13 (expected)
= +8 net votes FOR Acquittal (expected so far)

As Players weigh in, we'll lock in -- or possibly change -- those factors.

Potentially the Militarists and Aristocrats could plunge the vote either way. The Aristos have 23 (including activated activist) votes at stake, and the Militarists have 17.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on January 04, 2019, 08:57:01 PM
The Aristocrats will vote against acquittal.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 04, 2019, 09:50:06 PM
Current running tally then:

Acilius Influence +16
Aristocrats -23
I suppose at this point we can include Progressive votes -9 and -4, since there's no reason for him to vote otherwise.
(I couldn't entirely assume that until I saw at least one other Player backing his play, since last Turn remember no one backed I.I.'s Prosecution after he thought he had support, and he ended up having to vote against his own Prosecution to avoid losing Influence!)
Net tally: -20 votes AGAINST Acquittal (FOR Conviction)
These are the only figures we know for sure yet.

Plutocrat vote +15 (expected, but duh -- technically)
Populist vote -23 (expected)
Conservative vote +13 (expected)
= -15 net votes AGAINST Acquittal (expected so far)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 04, 2019, 10:04:10 PM
Note that if the Militarists follow the coterie, and if the other expected votes run out, the net vote of -32 could still be beat by two excellent rolls on Popular Appeal and the final Trial votes. (Or by one boxcar roll on Pop Appeal, which will grant immediate freedom by mob rescue!)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on January 05, 2019, 09:34:25 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on January 04, 2019, 06:12:14 PM
Okay, back from work. Let's see where we're at.

The Frog would like AzTank's new Statesman Paullus Macedonicus to Advocate for him. He'll have to check in and agree, but we can move along until the final Trial until then.


The conservatives agree
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on January 05, 2019, 10:34:45 AM
Quote from: malize on January 03, 2019, 04:00:41 PM
Cato will do his duty as requested by the state

This was my acceptance as prosecutor, my votes will back Cato's role.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 05, 2019, 01:39:55 PM
Current running tally then:

Acilius Influence +16
Aristocrats -23
I suppose at this point we can include Progressive votes -9 and -4, since there's no reason for him to vote otherwise.
Populist vote -23
Conservative vote +13

Net tally: -30 votes AGAINST Acquittal (FOR Conviction)
These are the figures we know for sure yet.

Plutocrat vote +15 (expected, but duh -- technically)
= -15 net votes AGAINST Acquittal (expected so far)

We're lacking Tripoli's 17 votes, and technically the Plutocrats (who are reserving until the Frog checks whether he should make a popular appeal, which must happen during his voting.)


Meanwhile, let me drop a reminder to myself, that according to my newly revised Progressive activist rules, if Erax's knights activate double-votes -- which they have done here -- their senator(s) will get 1 Influence win or lose. (Or 4 Influence if voting against one of their own senators gain or for his harm!) I'm not where I can process that yet, but I could go ahead and do so when I get a chance since the outcome doesn't matter at this point.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on January 05, 2019, 03:18:57 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on January 05, 2019, 01:39:55 PM
Current running tally then:

Acilius Influence +16
Aristocrats -23
I suppose at this point we can include Progressive votes -9 and -4, since there's no reason for him to vote otherwise.
Populist vote -23
Conservative vote +13

Net tally: -30 votes AGAINST Acquittal (FOR Conviction)
These are the figures we know for sure yet.

Plutocrat vote +15 (expected, but duh -- technically)
= -15 net votes AGAINST Acquittal (expected so far)

We're lacking Tripoli's 17 votes, and technically the Plutocrats (who are reserving until the Frog checks whether he should make a popular appeal, which must happen during his voting.)



Hanging's to Good for Him!  The militarists vote for conviction
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVX4zGX3iWg
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 05, 2019, 03:58:42 PM
With that, the Net expected votes (including Plutocrats eventually) comes to -32 AGAINST Acquittal.

We still don't have dice-rolling capability yet, so I'll have to wait until I get back home (at work doing eoy inventory) see what the Popular appeal brings.

If he rolls 2, he dies period, and his Advocate will make one draw from the death bag to see if he dies, too.

If he rolls 12, he's instantly freed, and there will be two draws from the death bag to see if the Censor and/or Prosecutor's number comes up.

However, no other result from the popular appeal (at most 16 votes For Acquittal) will combine with his 15 votes to save him: he'll be -1 short at best.

He could still pull out a win with some risk after the adjusted 2d6 roll of the final trial (which would be adjusted 2 points against him by the relative Oratory skills of the Prosecutor and Advocate). But I have been instructed that if he doesn't get freed by the Popular Appeal, then don't risk losing the Trial: veto it with the PontMax.

I have double checked the Living Rules, and nothing specifically is said about the PontMax being unable to veto his own Trial. He explicitly cannot veto his own Removal Proposition, and he can veto trials (i.e. anything a Tribune could normally veto). The Living Rules usually take Advanced Rules into account (that's why there are blue-lettered marks in the rules). I can understand why it would be irregular, but it isn't strictly illegal so far as I can tell.

If any other rule-hounds want to check on that, now's the time!

Otherwise, he'll be rolling (with a gamble on his life in case he hard fails) on whether or not he needs to spend his PontMax veto this Turn on defending himself. But then of course he won't be able to use that veto again this Turn.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 05, 2019, 04:49:44 PM
Before I roll the Pop Appeal, some Progressive bookkeeping:

Since the Progressive knights activated x2 votes, win or lose their senators Flaminius and Calpurnicus each gain 1 Influence (according to the updated Faction special abilities I instituted before the Senate started), up to 17 and 3 respectively. New total Influence 22.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 05, 2019, 05:09:52 PM
2d6 rolls 3+4, which is 7, which means no change, but more importantly means he isn't freed (or killed) by the people.

So the PontMax vetos his own Trial.

....I'm not gonna lie, I find this unacceptably weird.  >:(

After triple and quadruple checking the Living Rules again, I looked into the Sabrerules to see if I had already house ruled some time ago on this topic. And indeed! -- while it doesn't say it's a house rule, my note 2.3.5.8.1) reads quite more explicitly than the April 2018 Living Rules. Whether that's because I found an earlier version of the Valley Games PontMax rule that made more sense to me (I do have an earlier version for reference; PontMaxes weren't available in the Avalon Hill rules), or because I house ruled it:

Quotethe PontMax senator may, without playing a Tribune, veto one proposal per turn (except a proposal to strip him of PontMax office!), before any senator in his faction starts voting, if the proposal could be vetoed by a Tribune. (Trials are not proposals, so are immune to PontMax veto.)


I think this is a much more balanced approach, since it doesn't really make sense that the PontMax should be able to veto his own Trial; and it limits his veto power a little more broadly, too, by restricting it to Proposals only. Since I'm clearly house ruling here, I could be persuaded that the PontMax would be able to veto a Trial, too, but not his own, on the same principle that he cannot veto his own Removal Proposal. Opinions are welcome, but remember I'll enforce the result equally hereafter!

Relatedly, the Frog might have tried more negotiation tactics if I hadn't forgotten I had written this house rule, so my lapse could be argued to have affected the result significantly.

Therefore: I am going to rule as fairly as I can see to do so, that this is the final turn that the PontMax will be able to veto his own Trial, and henceforth some version of the Sabrerule house rule will be in effect (either avoiding anything beyond Proposal vetos for the PontMax, or at least not allowing him to veto his own Trial.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 05, 2019, 05:14:19 PM
Now, results for a veto'd Trial. The Trial is Canceled, without Acquittal or Conviction, so no one gains or loses from those results (other than the veto being used up this Turn of course).

However! -- while a Canceled Trial uses up one Prosecution attempt, a Canceled Trial does NOT remove the Defendant's Suspicion marker! (I just double checked; this is in the Sabrerule flowchart, too!)

This means Flaminius the Censor can launch a second Minor Investigation this Turn; and he can launch it again at Acilius for Minor Suspicion of Office Corruption; and he can appoint the same Prosecutor (Cato the Elder) if he wants; etc.

Everyone can vote the same way they did before, which I will assume unless someone explicitly tells me otherwise!


In effect, this means everyone has a chance to change their mind on the vote, or not; and the Popular Appeal gets a re-roll; and unless the Frog has a Tribune and chooses to throw it for another veto (and unless he rolls a 2 or 12 on the Pop Appeal) we'll go on into the final Trial.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 05, 2019, 05:52:01 PM
Let me add that if the Players prefer to keep the implicit allowance of the Living Rules, and allow PontMaxes to veto their own Trials (using up their veto per turn), I'll be okay with that, too.  O:-) Certainly an argument can be made that way as well.

Please feel free to weigh in with your preferences!


The result won't affect this Turn, however, so we're going onward: unless I hear otherwise, whereupon I'll retcon voting results, then I'll assume provisionally that everyone is doing the same things again in a second Prosecution of Investigation for Minor Corruption of PontMax Office.

Current running tally then:

Acilius Influence (note actual senator votes yet!) +16
Aristocrats -23 (including activist)
Progressive votes -13 (including activist) -- this means his senators with knights will each earn a point of Influence again, btw.
Populist vote -23
Conservative vote +13
Militarist vote -17

That's -47 AGAINST Acquittal.

This time on the popular appeal Acilius rolls 6+2=8.

That's +4 votes in his favor.

However, even with him casting his senators' official 15 votes, that leaves -28 against him.

And with the -2 die-roll-modifier against the final Trial roll, thanks to Cato's Oratory vs. Paullus', then at absolute best Acilius could only get +12 more votes.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 05, 2019, 07:56:40 PM
Provisionally allowing for some asynchronous alterations in voting or whatever, the Prosecution returns a Minor Guilty verdict against PontMax Acilius.

The first result in any case would be that Flaminius and Calpurnicus of the Progressives, having activist knights voting in the Progressive special abilities, each gain another 1 Influence, up to 18 and 4 respectively. New Progressive total Influence 24.

Second, Acilius loses his Major Suspicion Mark. His Prosecutor, Populist Cato the Elder, did not yet have a Prior Consul mark, and Acilius did, so the mark shifts to Cato. He can now be elected Censor, but Acilius cannot. Acilius loses 5 Popularity, down to -5 (the first Unpopular senator in the game); and loses 5 Influence down to 11. Plutocrat total Influence now down to 45.

Third, Prosecutor Cato of the Populists gains half (rounded up) of the 5 lost Influence of the Accused, going up 3 Influence from 1 to 4. New Populist total Influence 15.

Fourth, this second Prosecution necessarily ends the Prosecution segment, so all senators in Rome removal all Suspicions.

Last, the Presiding Magistrate post passes back to Roman Consul and HRAO Manlius of the Militarists.

This also ends all Mandatory Business.

Manlius' Player, Tripoli, must now consider all Other Business in the order he prefers to Propose it (or which may be Tribuned by Players).

Valid Other Business this Turn includes: possibly raising the 14th and/or 15th Legions (10 Talents each); possibly raising up to 15 Fleets (10 Talents each); possibly Disbanding up to 13 Active Legions (1st thru 13th; 1st being Veteran); Deploying Active Units in Forces with Commanders to fight Wars; Removing the PontMax from Office; and Reforming the Veterans.


This leads to the topic of Professional Training and Veteran status, which is very much a house rule in progress, and needs its own post. ;)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on January 05, 2019, 09:26:08 PM
1st order of business. The raising of all available legions.
2nd order of business. The raising of all available fleets. Depending on how the votes go, I may have other. Proposals. I don't think we need a voting order for these first two proposals. Militarists vote for both proposals
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 05, 2019, 10:46:24 PM
For convenience, here's the State of the Republic information from earlier. Player mats have changed, of course, so aren't reposted, but the other stats are the same up to now since the start of the Senate.

Quote from: JasonPratt on December 26, 2018, 10:34:18 PM
STATE OF THE REPUBLIC:
----------------------------

The Republic currently has 196 Talents, with an income of 60, and more Allied Enthusiasm about to add another 50 next Turn. Current expected expenses are -10 and -20 for Active Wars, and -10 for an Immanent War which will activate before the Revenue Phase next Turn. Expected expenses also include -2 x 13 Active Legions. (Vets cost nothing extra for upkeep, though really they should.)

There's a Spolia Opima historical Event in the Forum, and strictly speaking it doesn't distinguish between Land and Naval Victories against an Enemy Leader! However, neither does the prologue fan expansion feature naval battles at all. And, to be fair, while the rules mentioned a Spolia Opima event, they forgot to include any details for it, so its details are totally my invention anyway. ;) So I'm going to rule that claiming it must require a Land Victory over an Enemy Leader, which is certainly the spirit of the event anyway. (I'll try to remember to clarify this rule on the card text soon.)

Unrest is currently 1.


Here's the Immanent War again for convenience:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/8378/1Rg0us.jpg)

And the two Active Wars plus Enemy Leader:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7067/ksWJko.jpg)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on January 05, 2019, 11:51:29 PM
The Aristocrats will naturally vote in favour of the defence of the Republic.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on January 06, 2019, 12:01:12 AM
Catching up on events and I feel like I've taken a drink of a Pan-galactic Gargle Blaster...
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 06, 2019, 12:19:25 AM
Now, on Reforming Veterans (loosely based on the reforms of Marius and that other guy whose name everyone forgets because Marius was more famous... ;) )

I was a little surprised and disappointed that Veterans are so brittle in this game. Maybe that's for play balance, I dunno, but in my estimation the best power of the Legions wasn't in their ability to hit doubly or triply hard (thanks to training and command/logistic structure). I mean, that's definitely important and something the game simulates, but I regard their best power as defense, the ability to professionally outlast their opponents.

It was during this period that Rome's Legions started upgrading into the professional military machine that could only be seriously matched, other things being equal, by fellow Roman Legions. Which of course is why the game starts leveling up Legions into vets. And sure, the first thing they arguably did was learn to fight more damagingly. But the Marian Reforms (and successors) also introduced tons of defensive doctrinal changes to keep those harder-hitting fighters alive and hitting back (harder).

That's what I decided to add for simulation in the game, so that over time Rome's Legions have opportunities (provided by the Senate, where possible and agreed upon), to develop up not only into the peak efficiency of the coming Imperial period, but even to create the nucleus of what will become the Praetorian Legions. Maybe. ;)


So! The Sabrerule flowchart has a (now outdated) paragraph on this already, but I've been refining it over time, and I'll update it after chewing on it some more (with feedback hopefully!) But here are the details.

For topical context, when the game rolls for casualties, I have a process where, starting with the 'youngest' Legion in the fight and working upward (highest to lowest legion number), I roll a 1d6 for each Legion to see if it will be one of the necessary casualties lost. The older Legions are presumed to be more experienced even if not Veteran yet, so the younger Legions roll their chances first. If we get to the end of the list and not enough casualties have rolled yet then I start over with the youngest surviving Legion and test each again, until I run out of casualties so to speak. That means sometimes randomly 'older' Legions will die off faster than younger ones, but the nominally more experienced ones have a little better chance of survival, even if they aren't Veterans yet.

By the same token, the Legion which levels up to Veteran after a non-Defeat fight, will be the oldest (lowest-number) non-Vet Legion. That's why the 1st Legion is currently a Vet! And consequently, it counts twice now when figuring out the dice-roll modifier for the battle roll, unlike once for other Legions.

From this Turn forward, now that a Veteran Legion exists, the Senate can vote to spend Talents instituting training for superior Veteran strength in defense. Attack will always stay x2 (or x3 now, in effect, where a Commander's Mil Skill is high enough to count them yet again for the fight!)

For New Veterans (Level 0), i.e. until the first paid Reform, Vets only get double attack bonus. That's our 1st Legion right now, for example: only extra attack, no extra defense.

The first paid Reform creates Seasoned Veteran training with the first defensive bonuses. All Reforms cost 10 Talents times the number of Veteran Legions + 10 Talents per level of Reform. Only one level of Reform is allowed per Turn. Training Reforms are permanent and affect all current and future Veterans going forward.

For Seasoned Veterans (Level 1), all non-Vets must roll for survival first in a cycle, then Vets (youngest to oldest Legions in each case).

For Mature Veterans (Level 2), the testing order goes back to normal, but the Vets get 1 extra survivor roll for each death roll; passing the roll cycles on to next oldest Legions, as usual.

For Hastati Veterans (Level 3), combine both Level 1 and 2 rules: all non-Vets must roll for survival first in a cycle, then Vets (youngest to oldest in each case), but the Vets get two rolls to survive. Any casualties remaining, start over again on all surviving non-Vets first. Continue until the casualties fill out.

So far, there has been no change in how many Legions perish. If the roll says three Legions lost, three will be lost. If that's all the Legions, no need to even roll, that's everyone, Veterans included.

For Elite Principes (Level 4), along with Level 3 combined benefits, any Veteran survival roll reduces the remaining casualty number by 1! That means survival of a Veteran decreases the chance of even non-Vets perishing! -- now they know how to put their training to work to save other Legions, too, not only themselves.

So far, each upgrade affects all Legions, current and future, once researched and funded. The Elite are the normal ideal Veterans that new Legions become when becoming Veterans: able to hit hard, less likely to be destroyed, and able to save lesser Legions, too.

Once Level 4 training has been reached, however, a whole other category of Veterancy training can be bought for specific Legions, at 50 Talents per Legion. These Gold Veteran Legions will be denoted by a permanent gold coin on their chit (actually representing 100 Talents but that seemed too much to pay under the circumstances), and are in effect entire Legions of Triarii: the ultimate experienced troops too valuable to even be put in danger usually, so who usually only hit hard as the reserve to finish out a fight! Aside from being allowed two survival rolls, and any survival success reducing the remaining casualties by one, Gold Vets do not even roll casualties until a Gold-only Force remains! For then, as the saying goes, "It has come to the triarii!" The saying originally referred to groups less than a whole Legion of course, but it came to be proverbally applied to last-chance defenses.

The Gold or Triarii Veterans are really no better at fighting than the Principes, they just get to die last -- if it comes that! By the same token, they only get that privilege if there are other Legions (Vet or otherwise) to die first! -- otherwise you might as well send in a Force of only Level 4 "Elite Principes" Vets. I thought there should be a Prestige level of Veterancy, beyond the normal maximum, where now it's efficiently worse than useless to even have them, because you're spending lots of the Republic's cash to bling them out but they haven't gotten functionally better. Naturally these would be the precursors to the Praetorian Guard.

Being a class of veterans no more useful except as bling, I intend for them to confer an Influence bonus at least, maybe also Pop and/or a Mil Skill increase, for a senator who sponsors their promotion to 'Gold'. I haven't worked out the details on this yet, but I've got a minimum of 5 Turns to do so. ;)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on January 07, 2019, 08:50:03 AM
Quote from: Tripoli on January 05, 2019, 09:26:08 PM
1st order of business. The raising of all available legions.
2nd order of business. The raising of all available fleets. Depending on how the votes go, I may have other. Proposals. I don't think we need a voting order for these first two proposals. Militarists vote for both proposals

Yes on both
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on January 07, 2019, 02:34:09 PM
Yes on both, and I suggest we take advantage of JP's new veterancy rules and go up to level 1 while the cost is only 10 talents. Err... 20 talents.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 07, 2019, 03:36:01 PM
Quote from: Erax on January 07, 2019, 02:34:09 PM
Yes on both, and I suggest we take advantage of JP's new veterancy rules and go up to level 1 while the cost is only 10 talents. Err... 20 talents.

Correct: 10 Talents for the first level + (10 times one Veteran).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on January 07, 2019, 07:11:18 PM
Concur.  Also, I propose
3) That 10 talents be spent on the 1st  legion to increase its veteran status.  Militarists vote yes on this proposal
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on January 07, 2019, 08:16:48 PM
Quote from: Tripoli on January 07, 2019, 07:11:18 PM
Concur.  Also, I propose
3) That 10 talents be spent on the 1st  legion to increase its veteran status.  Militarists vote yes on this proposal

Yes
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on January 07, 2019, 08:17:48 PM
Aye
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 07, 2019, 11:07:26 PM
Ahem, it will actually be 20 Talents (as correctly noted by Erax). But it's almost as cheap as possible to do get the first level done now, while there's only one Veteran Legion; and all Vets going forward will benefit from being Seasoned Vets.

With the Aristocrats joining the vote, the first Proposal crosses the majority, and passes. Context indicates the next two proposals will also pass with their votes being indicated. 14th and 15th Legions go Active. Republic Treasury down 20 Talents (10 x 2 Legions) from 196 to 176.

Tripoli Proposes to Raise all 15 available Fleets in the Force Pool; passed by the same votes. 1st through 15th Fleets go Active. Republic Treasury down 150 Talents (10 x 15 Legions) from 176 to 26 Talents.

Tripoli Proposes to Reform the Veteran Legions to Level 1 Seasoned Vet Training; passed by the same votes. Cost is (10 Talents x 1st Level Training) + (10 Talents x 1 Legion) = 20 Talents. Republic Treasury down 20 Talents from 26 to 6!

As a reminder, next Turn's normal Income is expected to be 60 Talents, plus 50 Talents in Allied Enthusiasm, for 110 + 6 current Talents. From this will be nominally subtracted 10 Talents from the 2nd Samnite War, 10 from the 3rd Samnite War (which will go Active during the first Phase), and 20 from the 1st Punic. (All active Wars from Early Provincial onward cost 20 instead of 10 Talents.) From that will be subtracted the nominal Fleet and Legion upkeep costs of 2 times the sum of the Fleets and Legions, or 2*(15+15) = 60 Talents.

6+60+50-10-10-20-60 = expected 16 Talents in the Treasury going into the Forum Phase. Of course, this could be modified by a permanent income increase of 20 Talents if the 2nd Samnite War gets knocked out; and/or by any Fleet and Legion losses (reducing upkeep costs); and/or by Contributions from senators during the Revenue Phase's first segment.

Even so, you'll have left the Republic rather dangerously exposed to fatal runs of expensive bad luck during the Forum Phase! And you won't have a Plutocrat HRAO to fall back on, because even if you send out the two Consuls, the Censor will remain as HRAO in Rome -- and ideally the Consuls will be back anyway with solid Victories to build for progress on next Turn! The PontMax will not be able to act as a financial Last Ditch next Turn... (unless a bunch of assassinations get successfully thrown...)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on January 09, 2019, 11:51:18 AM
All-I'm consulting some allies regarding my next proposals.  Will make some additional proposals or end the phase later tonight
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on January 09, 2019, 08:42:53 PM
I am proposing 1) Cornelius and  all Legions prosecute  the Samnite war and

2) I will take the fleets and teach the Carthaginian dogs a lesson.....  :)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on January 09, 2019, 09:25:04 PM
Yes and Yes.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 09, 2019, 10:35:35 PM
I already know from chat that the Progressives and the Aristocrats agree with both Proposals in sequence.

I'll have to wait until tomorrow afternoon to process them, but the Proposals will each thus pass the majority; and with the departure of the Roman Consul the Senate will be closed (unless someone throws a Tribune to veto his Proposal to deploy himself; or to Propose something else before the Senate closes; or unless he hands off the PM post to the Censor after the Field Consul has gone -- none of which I expect to happen.)

Once the Deployments are processed, I'll move on thereby to the Combat Phase; and having resolved that, to the start of the Revolution Phase, with a reminder to any Players with valid Faction cards to play. So, a busy evening for me tomorrow!
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 11, 2019, 08:40:02 AM
Urgh, apologies, very wiped out yesterday after work. Hopefully should move along more quickly this afternoon or tomorrow (though I'll be away from my main computer for several hours tomorrow afternoon).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 11, 2019, 09:20:08 PM
Still bluerghy, but recovered enough! -- let's get to it!  <:-)

Manlius of the Militarists Proposes first that Field Consul Cornelius of the Aristocrats be Deployed with all Legions to prosecute the 2nd Samnite War; and then that Manlius himself as Roman Consul will take all Fleets and Prosecute the 1st Punic War. With agreement votes from the Progressives, Aristocrats, and Populists, both Proposals pass, and with the Presiding Magistrate leaving Rome (on Deployment) the Senate automatically closes.

This ends the Senate Phase.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 11, 2019, 09:38:05 PM
With Field consul Cornelius Deployed, the Aristocrat total Influence drops by 20 points to 36; and their normal vote tally drops by 6 points to 9.

With Roman Consul Manlius Deployed, the Militarist total Influence drops by 18 points to 22; and their vote tally drops by 5 points to 12.

Time to put the boots down!


TURN NINE -- COMBAT PHASE
----------------------------------

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/2523/MhIwsn.jpg)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 11, 2019, 10:05:52 PM
First up: the Revered Field Consul Cornelius, Faction Leader of the Aristocrats, vs. the 2nd Samnite War!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/7499/I99PCo.jpg)

Total Legions: 15
Veteran Legions added again: +1
Add Cornelius' Mil Skill: +4 (all used)
Subtract War's Land Strength: -5
No Active Matching Wars, no Enemy Leaders, no extra enemy Forces.
DRM = 15+1+4-5= +15.

This means it is impossible for any 3d6 roll to score less than a modified 18, which is a Victory without Roman Casualties. However, the D/S risks still count, so the roll must be made.

No dice-roller yet reinstalled for the forum, so I roll them on the TTS. Results, 4+5+6=15. Close to a Standoff, but not quite, whew!

Unrest down 1 to 0! No enemy leader, so no Spolia Opima yet. This War does not provide Spoils for Rome. Proper consolidation of this Samnite territory under Republican management does increase annual Republic Revenue by 20 Talents, up to 80! It also adds no less than 5 new Legions, and 5 new Fleets (16th through 20th each, inclusive) to the logistic Force Pool! The 2nd Samnite War permanently discards.

Cornelius gains half the War's 5 Land strength, rounded up: so his Influence goes up 3 to 23, and his Popularity goes up to 3. No Pop adjustment down for losing any Legions. The 2nd Legion becomes Veteran! -- Cornelius earns their loyalty chip. Cornelius marches back toward Rome with 2 Veteran and 13 regular Legions. Assuming he arrives in the next Phase, normal Vote tally will go back up 3 Ora + 3 knights to 15; and total Influence will go back up 23 points to 59.

Thanks to the Aristocrat special ability, Cornelius farms an extra point to be given to Quinctius or Valerius, at I.I.'s decision. The new total will then by 60 Influence.

This ends the 2nd Samnite War.

The next fight will be significantly harder...
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 11, 2019, 10:54:46 PM
The Republic faces its first Naval Battle...

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/1176/Ti1w3M.jpg)

Roman Consul Manlius, Faction Leader of the Militarists, vs. Hamilcar and the Navy of the 1st Punic War!

Total number of Fleets: 15
Add Manlius' Mil Skill: +6 (all used)
Subtract War's base Naval Strength: -10
Subtract Hamilcar's bonus: -3
No Matching War, no extra enemy forces.
DRM = 15+6-10-3 = +8.

A total of 11, 12, or 14 will be a Standoff; a total of 8 or 13 will be a Disaster. (Hamilcar is adding his D/S potentials, and Manlius cannot eliminate the War's.)

3d6 = 3+4+6 = 13! AACKKK! Normally 13 + 8 would be 21 and thus a no-loss victory, but 13 triggers a natural Disaster result before the DRM gets applied!

Unrest increases by 1 to 1! The Fleets lose 50% casualties rounded up! -- 8 Fleets. Randomly those turn out to be the 14th, 13th, 12th, 9th, 6th, 5th, 2nd, and 1st.

Manlius loses 1 Pop for every 2 Fleets lost rounded down, so down 4 Pop to 1. He draws 8 chits from the vigorously shuffled Death bag. Results: 28, x2 -- put back, shuffle, new total 9 chits! -- blank, 11 (one of the Papirian sons dies), 25, blank, blank, 26, 17 (that's one of Plautius' cousins), annnnd 7! -- one of Fulvius' sisters gets bad news. But #6 Manlius survives!


With no Victory, Manlius must stay afloat. Dead Fleets return to the Force Pool. Manlius stays as Proconsul with 7 Fleets, now as Proconsul. This means Field Consul Cornelius will be HRAO in Rome (unless he chooses rebellion).

The War's Fleet strength now exceeds Manlius' Fleet strength (10 to 7), and there wasn't a Naval Victory; so the War counts as Unprosecuted (or insufficiently Prosecuted in this case).

This ends the Combat Phase.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 11, 2019, 11:19:36 PM
TURN NINE -- REVOLUTION PHASE
-----------------------------


Any Players with valid Statesmen and/or Concessions can play them now. I have sent a p-mail reminder to any valid Players; if you didn't get one, you don't have a valid card to play.

Players may also trade or donate Faction cards among yourselves, with immediate arrival. No one needs to reduce your cards down to the maximum 5.

I.I. must now choose whether to hand Cornelius' Legions back to the Republic, or rebel against the Senate.

If he chooses to remain loyal, he may now choose to Retire the 2nd Legions, whose loyalty he holds and who served with him in his Victory.


And that catches me up for tonight!  O:-)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on January 11, 2019, 11:26:59 PM
Cornelius has no intention of standing against the Republic. Extra influence to Valerius.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on January 12, 2019, 07:41:06 AM
A Little Side Note: On this day in history ( January 11, 49 BC): This day in history embodies the concept of how a "journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step" as Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon River to march on Rome, kicking off The Great Roman Civil War, which in turn ended the era of the republic and gave rise to the Roman Empire. (Text curtosey of The Great Courses)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 12, 2019, 06:12:14 PM
I.I. chooses to remain loyal, and gives back the Legions including 2nd Vets. He gives the extra Influence point to Valerius, up to 18.

I.I. plays his (currently) last remaining Faction card: Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus! -- a famous Statesman who takes over the Cornelian family chits. His 5 Oratory increases the Aristocrat normal vote tally to 17, and his 6 Influence plus the 18 Influence points earned by his family Senator, kicks the Aristocrat tally up to 61 total Influence. Africanus, as might be expected, voids any normal D/S result from any Punic War (though he cannot void Enemy Leader D/S results).

Malize plays the ultra-general Statesman Quintus Fabius Maximum Verrucosus Cuncator! -- a Mil 5 defensive mastermind who, unless he is acting as Master of Horse, halves all losses (rounded up) in any of his Combats! His 3 Influence bumps the Populist total up to 18; and his 2 Oratory increases their Vote Tally to 25.

The Fabian family is out of play in the Curia at the moment; so while this allows Malize to politically activate the senator for his Faction (the family isn't already helping another Faction), he can't get the family Senator until the Fabians randomly respawn from the Curia. This means if Verruc dies, there will be no vanilla replacement so far. On the other hand, as long as Verruc lives, Malize will now automatically pick up the Fabian family once they return to the Senate.

(I'll have snapshots of the new Statesmen along with updated mats soon, when I finish the Faction income of the Revenue Phase.)

This seems to end the Revolution Phase, although if anyone wants to donate or trade cards I will as usual allow a reasonable lag time for immediate reception. (Otherwise the cards will be Delayed Transfer until the end of next Turn.)

And with that, the Ninth Turn ends!
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 12, 2019, 06:29:53 PM
TURN TEN -- MORTALITY PHASE
---------------------------

The Turn starts with the Immanent 3rd Samnite War going Active.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/8729/2UPlIO.jpg)

It's the toughest (and now last) of the pre-Early Wars, with a Land Strength of 8. But beating it will solidify a final set of territories around Rome, adding 20 Talents to income each Turn, and the final five Legions and Fleets to the Force Pool.

After a thorough shuffle, Family #16, the Calpurnicans, is drawn from the death bag. The Kindly Ones still have a crush on the Progressive Faction, alas! Calpurnicus loses his chits, and (not being the Faction Leader) his family goes to the bottom of the Curia stack. Total Influence goes down to 20; and normal vote tally goes down to 6.

This ends the Mortality Phase.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 12, 2019, 07:07:49 PM
TURN TEN -- REVENUE PHASE
-------------------------

Segment one of the Revenue Phase: Faction Income!


I.I.'s Aristocrats have 4 starting cash; + 15 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator income; +2+3+3 knight income; +1 priest income; +2+2 Tax Farming; +3 Harbor Fees
= new Faction total 40 Talents!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/5295/IX3ghb.jpg)


Tripoli's Militarists have 6 starting cash; +25 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator income; +5+3 knight income; +2+2 Tax Farming
= new Faction total 48 Talents!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/1123/mt4CPa.jpg)
Note that Proconsul Manlius is still at the 1st Punic War, so his votes and influence have been deducted from the Faction totals. (I should have changed over his Roman Consul chit to a Proconsul on this card, too: when senators are away from Rome I keep duplicates of them in both places, marked to show their location, thus the little War card on his card.)


The Frog's Plutocrats have 9 starting cash; +14 personal cash; +5+1+1 senator income (Plutocrat ability); (+4+2+2)x2 knight income (Plutocrat ability); +1+1 priest income; +1d6=4 PontMax income
= new Faction total 52 Talents!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/1249/pZsYUi.jpg)


AzTank's Conservatives have 37 starting cash; +10 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator income; +2+2 knight income; +1+1 priest income
= new Faction total 58 Talents!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/2697/jAo99o.jpg)


Malize's Populists have 2 starting cash; +0 personal cash; +3+1+1+1 senator income; +2+1+1 knight income; +3 Mining Concession
= new Faction total 15 Talents!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/106/AP38Yg.jpg)


Erax's Progressives have 3 starting cash; +13 personal cash; +3+1 senator income; +3 knight income; +2+2 Tax Farming
= new Faction total 27 Talents!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/8789/4DyQiq.jpg)

All triggered Concessions now have a Minor Corruption Suspicion.


The Republic has a Treasury of 6 Talents right now, and can expect a 50 Talent donation from Allied Enthusiasm plus a normal (new) income of 80 Talents. Expected expenses include -10 for the 3rd Samnite War; -20 for the 1st Punic War; -2x15 Active Legions; and -2x7 Active Fleets.

Currently Unrest =1. An unassigned senator Sulpicius lingers in the Forum with 28 personal cash.


Players should now, in Segment 2, distribute their cash to their senators, and plan ahead for expenses during the upcoming Forum Phase. Donations to the Republic can be done now. Any donations or trading of cash between Players will transfer immediately.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on January 12, 2019, 07:40:54 PM
10 to Cato (will donate to treasury)
5 to Fabius (will acquire knight)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on January 12, 2019, 10:00:38 PM
15 to Scipio, 10 to Quinctius, 5 to Valerius.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on January 13, 2019, 03:30:18 AM
2 to Flaminius, Plautius donates 20 and keeps 5 for a Knight.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on January 13, 2019, 10:29:43 AM
10 each for my guys.  The rest in faction cash.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on January 13, 2019, 11:34:43 AM
Also,  if and when I can, a priesthood to Larizonas senator of choice in thanks for his support.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 13, 2019, 05:34:12 PM
Heh, La'rizona.  8)

I'll set that up first thing for the Senate Phase, which is when priesthoods can be conferred. It'll be on Paullus, since he's the only Conservative senator without one yet.

We're missing Tripoli and AzTank's distributions still.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on January 13, 2019, 08:14:18 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on January 13, 2019, 05:34:12 PM
Heh, La'rizona.  8)

I'll set that up first thing for the Senate Phase, which is when priesthoods can be conferred. It'll be on Paullus, since he's the only Conservative senator without one yet.

We're missing Tripoli and AzTank's distributions still.

3 to each of them.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on January 14, 2019, 11:53:06 AM
Quick question: Can Manlius buy a knight while deployed?  If he can, 5 to Manlius who buys a knight.  Otherwise, 5 to Julius, who buys a knight.  25 to Aelius who donates it to the treasury for the influence.  Another 15 to Aelius on general principles.  ;)  And remainder (48-5-25-10=8) to faction cash.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 14, 2019, 02:59:36 PM
Oh, that's a good question! I'll have to check this afternoon. I think senators outside Rome do receive distribution as well as usual incomes -- even when they're captured. (They just can't send income or any other cash back when captured.)

Whether they can spend personal cash on Forum Phase projects when outside Rome, I'll have to check.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 14, 2019, 03:07:58 PM
Fortunately I have a copy of the Living Rules at work, and a fairly updated copy of my Sabrerule compilation flowchart.

Players can indeed Distribute their cash among any of their senators whether in Rome or not. (Including to captive senators, though the Faction cannot collect from Captives until ransomed or rescued.)

For Persuading senators, your Persuading senator must be in Rome, but his target doesn't have to be. So Manlius cannot try to Persuade Sulpy, for example, but Cornelius, for example, could try to Persuade Manlius.

For Persuading knights, I saw no excluding conditions. (Captive senators by implication cannot, since they can only receive cash not spend it until they paid for their freedom or have been rescued.)

Senators don't have to be in Rome to Sponsor Games.

New Faction Leader assignments don't have to be in Rome either.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on January 14, 2019, 03:55:39 PM
If it is not too late, I will do a different cash allocation.28 to Acilius, 8 to each of the others and remainder to Faction cash.  A knight for fulvius and Acilius to sponsor lavish games spending 18 cash for 3 popularity.

If it is too late, then still the knight to Fulvius, and Acilius will sponsor the most expensive games he can. 
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 14, 2019, 04:28:53 PM
Not too late, no problem. :) I'll be resolving everyone's financials this afternoon, then doing Rome's financials, and then (assuming y'all aren't broke yet) going on to start the Forum Phase, with I.I.'s Aristocrats if I recall correctly. (I think his Field Consul is the HRAO.)

That means Erax will be last around the table, which will suit him being afk until Wednesday.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 14, 2019, 07:41:40 PM
Quote from: Tripoli on January 14, 2019, 11:53:06 AM
25 to Aelius who donates it to the treasury for the influence.  Another 15 to Aelius on general principles.  ;)  And remainder (48-5-25-10=8) to faction cash.

While your math is correct, I can't tell whether you want me to distribute 15 to Aelius or 10! -- if you want to donate 15, it'll be 3 cash left over.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 14, 2019, 07:54:09 PM
On adjustments now...

Cato of the Populists donates his 10 to the Republic. Influence up 1 to 5; total Influence up to 19. Republic cash up 10 to 16.

Plautius of the Progressives donates 20 to the Republic, 1 Influence to 3, total Influence 21. Republic cash up to 36.

Aelius of the Militarists donates 25 to the Republic, up to 51 cash; up 2 Influence to 20, total Influence up to 24.

Tripoli can clarify how much he's keeping and how much else goes to Aelius as we move along.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 14, 2019, 08:01:13 PM
This ends segment 2.

Segment 3, Republic income: 51 starting cash; +80 normal income; +50 for Allied Enthusiasm promises last Turn; -10 3rd Samnite War; -20 1st Punic War; -2x (7+15=22 units) = new Republic total 107 Talents, phew!

This ends segment 3, and the Revenue Phase.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 14, 2019, 08:32:21 PM
TURN TEN -- FORUM PHASE
-----------------------

Allied Enthusiasm removed from the Forum. Spolia Opima remains, as does the independent senator Sulpy and his 28 personal cash.

Scipio as Field Consul is the highest ranking available officer, so the table-round will start with I.I.'s Aristocrats and go clockwise. No dice-roller in the new forum engine yet (mental note that I keep forgetting to bug Jarhead or someone about it), so I'll have to roll TTS.

16 Scenario cards remain before the Middle Provincial Era might trigger.

I.I.'s Aristocrats roll 4+1, which is a Scenario draw.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/7939/iRrLIA.jpg)

It's the 1st Gallic War.

The little sword and shield after the date means the war goes Active immediately: the Gauls are back to invade Italy.

This is the first War to indicate that it will attack Roman Provinces. Technically, it isn't possible for the 1st Gallic War to attack "Gallia Cisaplina", since you can't get that Province without beating the 1st Gallic! -- but all three Gallic Wars are printed this way for convenience. (It's theoretically possible you might have picked up one or both of the other Gallias before drawing this War, and it would attack both of them; similarly if you beat this War quickly enough to create the Cisaplina Province, future Gallic Wars will attack it.)

Fortunately, while tough (force 10), this is purely a land War and needs no Fleets. Also, while it has two Matching Wars, you only have to worry about one more of them during this Era.

I.I. left no instructions on how to spend his cash, so I'll pause here.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 15, 2019, 03:31:38 PM
Allow me to mention as a reminder, that three Active Wars is a dangerous situation for the Republic.

Because while the Republic can survive three Wars at the end of the Combat Phase, 4+ Active Wars at the end of the Combat Phase means game over: everyone loses.

The only way around that, is if the Highest Ranking Available Officer in Rome at the end of the Combat Phase, is a Militarist senator. Then the people have confidence to get through the crisis.

But of course, if there are two or three fatal crises at the same time, that'll be the end: there can't be two or more Last Ditch HRAO's at the same time!

(There kind of can be, since the Last Ditch triggers don't necessarily overlap. For example, the Republic could get past a fatal unrest once with a Populist HRAO delivering the State of the Republic, and then plan a Militarist senator to be HRAO at the end of a Combat Phase to avoid the 4+War fatality. But then a Militarist will be HRAO during the next Population Phase, so Unrest had better be sufficiently managed fast and with good luck...!)


Anyway, the Republic now has 3 Active Wars. And I.I. was only the first Player around the board. It is entirely possible, due to the random shuffle, that one or two, or even three more Wars (though that's unlikely) may activate before the Senate Phase.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on January 15, 2019, 04:04:14 PM
Automatic knight and faction leadership to Quinctius.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 15, 2019, 08:01:59 PM
Quinctius picks up his 3rd knight automatically; 5 personal cash remaining. Normal vote tally up to 18. Aristocrats currently lead in total Influence, so activist knights will add another 9 votes.

Next up, Tripoli's militarists roll 1+2, so draw a Scenario:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/5953/pf04cU.jpg)

Family #20, the Terentians, activate. I thought the Sulpies might be the crappiest family of senators in the game, but I was wrong. So very, very wrong.

So, if anyone wants a Mil 2, Ora 1, Inf 1 senator with shady loyalty, well, he's currently cheaper than Sulpicius!

Manlius spends his 5 cash on an automatic fourth knight. Since he isn't in Rome, this doesn't help the voting tally yet, but thanks to the Militarist abilities he does increase his Mil to 7! -- which could come in handy very soon!

I'll pause here in case Tripoli wants to try persuading the new senator, which he'd presumably try with Aelius, since one way or another he's got the best Influence, Oratory, and cash combo to work with.

Relatedly, I haven't gotten a clarification from Tripoli on Aelius' cash distribution, as far as I recall -- either there's 8 in Faction cash and Aelius has 10, or there's 3 in Faction cash and Aelius has 15. Tripoli changed his plans somehow halfway through typing, one way or another, and typed both 10 and 15 cash for Aelius. This should be settled now before continuing!
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on January 16, 2019, 12:43:40 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on January 14, 2019, 07:41:40 PM
Quote from: Tripoli on January 14, 2019, 11:53:06 AM
25 to Aelius who donates it to the treasury for the influence.  Another 15 to Aelius on general principles.  ;)  And remainder (48-5-25-10=8) to faction cash.

While your math is correct, I can't tell whether you want me to distribute 15 to Aelius or 10! -- if you want to donate 15, it'll be 3 cash left over.

Whoops. 10 to Aelius.  Sorry for the confusion.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on January 16, 2019, 12:50:35 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on January 15, 2019, 08:01:59 PM
Quinctius picks up his 3rd knight automatically; 5 personal cash remaining. Normal vote tally up to 18. Aristocrats currently lead in total Influence, so activist knights will add another 9 votes.

Family #20, the Terentians, activate. I thought the Sulpies might be the crappiest family of senators in the game, but I was wrong. So very, very wrong.

So, if anyone wants a Mil 2, Ora 1, Inf 1 senator with shady loyalty, well, he's currently cheaper than Sulpicius!

Manlius spends his 5 cash on an automatic fourth knight. Since he isn't in Rome, this doesn't help the voting tally yet, but thanks to the Militarist abilities he does increase his Mil to 7! -- which could come in handy very soon!

I'll pause here in case Tripoli wants to try persuading the new senator, which he'd presumably try with Aelius, since one way or another he's got the best Influence, Oratory, and cash combo to work with.

Oratory of 1 and Loyalty of 6?  Sounds like a former supervisor of mine.  Sorry, not interested.... ;D
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 16, 2019, 01:14:36 PM
I'll process the Plutocrats next then, this afternoon.

If anyone has designs on Terrance or Sulpy, drop me a line early, if you like! -- or for that matter, let me know if you won't be trying to persuade him either, so I'll know to move along.  O:-)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 16, 2019, 07:17:52 PM
The Frog's Plutocrats roll 5+6, drawing a Scenario card: a red-text Faction card, face down to his hand with his other three. (I've sent him a private chat message telling him what it is and the conditions for playing it.)

Acilius Sponsors level-3 Games, and Fulvius spends 5 of his cash buying his 3rd knight. Fulvius has 3 cash left over. Plutocrat vote tally goes up to 16. Acilius spends 18 cash, with 10 left over. His Popularity increases 3 to -2. Unrest decreases by 3 from 1 to 0 (the minimum).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 16, 2019, 07:36:53 PM
AzTank's Conservatives also roll 5+6 (rather improbably), drawing a Scenario card:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/1014/CvEJrU.jpg)

Philip the Fifth, of Macedon! He goes to the Curia for now, but he boosts any of the four (!!) Macedonian Wars by 6 strength. Relatedly, y'all can look forward to four Macedonian Wars on the way! :D  -- in themselves an existential crisis for the Republic! For now though he lurks gathering his forces...  :coolsmiley:

AzTank didn't give me any instructions on what to do for his round, so I'll pause here since one of his senators does have a decent chance at Persuading the new family Senator if he wants him...
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 16, 2019, 08:18:05 PM
Malize's Populists don't have quite enough influence and Ora to feasibly try Persuading the new trash-level Senator, and he left me instructions (some of which I've already processed), so I'll continue on... he rolls a 3+4=7, so that's a Random Event: 1+2+3=6, which in the Early Republic means an Evil Omen!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/48/4VSzcJ.jpg)

As the card notes, most dice rolls will now worsen by 1 until the start of the next Forum Phase. (Exceptions include the 3d6 roll for Random Events, and the 2d6 roll for whether a Player draws a Scenario or rolls a Random Event: that's the "Initiative roll".) The Republic's Treasury instantly loses 20 Talents, down from 51 to 31!

Moreover, the PontMax, Acilius of the Plutocrats, gets socked for 20 Talents to be paid from his personal cash!

Since he only has 10, he loses that cash and also loses the PontMax Office!! Upon any senator losing that office, he also loses 5 Influence down to a minimum of 0, or in this case down from 11 to 6. The Plutocrat total Influence goes down 5 to 40. Thanks to the Omens, and being unable to deal with them, Acilius will immediately get a Major Suspicion marker.

Since Acilius was unable to pay the full 20 Talents, his Faction must make up the difference -- plus an extra 10 Talents! But the Plutocrats only have 8 Talents remaining! -- so not only do they lose that cash, the Faction Leader Claudius also immediately gains a Major Suspicion marker!

Naturally this means electing a Pontifex Maximus will be an early Mandatory Business in the upcoming Senate Phase... (Acilius could be elected again, by the way.)

But that isn't all! -- any remaining Evil Omen cost must be immediately deducted from Rome's cash! Fortunately this does not include the extra 10 Faction penalty, so the remainder will be 20 - 10 (paid by Acilius) - 8 (paid by the Plutocrat Faction Treasury) = 2 Talents. Rome's cash goes down again from 31 to 29.

Notice that one Evil Omen could theoretically wipe 40 Talents from the Treasury. In fact, if another one gets rolled, that's exactly what will happen since there will be no PontMax yet (and his Faction) to try to offset half the costs involved to try to propitiate Rome's gods: in Latin, to get them to lean toward Rome. In Greek the term is hilasmos, and roughly means to smile upon or be happy with them again.

(This is a bit of trivia I picked up in my theological work.  :nerd: In Christian theology, no one has to reconcile God to sinners; God reconciles sinners to Himself and to each other, in effect propitiating us and our sins! This helps explain part of the attraction of the new faith, not long after the timeframe of this game; although by a few more centuries later many Christian theologians, especially in Rome, will have begun interpreting atonement in reverse of the New Testament grammar again -- back toward God needing to be reconciled to us, and thus back to the idea of us, or Christ, propitiating God. This interpretative crux, somewhat literally ;) , remains a factor in Christianity today -- much to the annoyance of some theologians like myself! But we're slowly working on it.  O:-) )

Meanwhile the new Fabian Statesman spends all 5 of his cash on his first minion, increasing the Populist vote tally to 26.

Except wait! -- the Eeeeevil Omen makes that one notch less likely! He'd need 6 cash now to be certain of a knight!

The math works out now that Fabius needs 6 or more on a 1d6, with 5 cash adding 5 to his roll, but the Omen subtracting 1. So Fabius' die roll modifier equals 4 this Turn. That still means a 2 or more will win... but he rolls a 1. (Twice! -- I rerolled it because the TTS roll mechanic looked a little squirrely the first time, and I wanted to be fair.)

So in fact, Verrucosus loses his sacrificed 5 Talents, and does not gain a knight, and the vote tally remains 25.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 16, 2019, 08:44:26 PM
Last around the table for this Turn's Forum Phase, Erax's Progressives roll 3+6, so not another Random Event (whew! This is what the Omen card text means about not affecting "Initiative rolls", notice.) Instead he draws...

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/3633/fLBI45.jpg)

...ohhhh, great, another one of the Successors: Antiochus the Third! He has started planning on a Syrian War, which you can expect to be upcoming now, and which basic strength he'll increase by 5.

(Odd. The code is correct, and the imageshack photo was showing up a minute ago. Not showing up for me now...)

Of course, he and/or Philip V might die of natural causes before then (during an Aging roll of the Population Phase), but guess what? -- the Eeeeeevil Omen makes that one notch less likely! More on that soon.

Plautius intended to buy an automatic knight with his 5 cash but that danged Evil Omen is going to screw with his surety, like it did for Malize! Fortunately Plautius rolls a 4, plus 5, minus 1, equals 8, which is equal to or greater than 6: and that's a win. Plautius picks up his first minion, and the normal vote tally goes up to 7. (Any Progressive activist vote trigger, will add another 4 to that.)

This will end the Forum Phase, once I hear back from AzTank about whether he wants to try to Persuade the new Senator.

For that matter, Flaminius of the Progressives would have a maximal chance of it (9 or less on a 2d6, even with the Evil Omen knocking off a point, and even without spending any bribes!), if AzTank doesn't want to try. So I'll pause to hear from both of them.

To be fair, Cato of the Populists would have some chance at it, 3 or less on a 2d6, even though he has no cash to bribe with. So if AzTank decides to pass, or fails his attempt, Malize might as well try.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on January 16, 2019, 10:48:31 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on January 16, 2019, 07:36:53 PM

AzTank didn't give me any instructions on what to do for his round, so I'll pause here since one of his senators does have a decent chance at Persuading the new family Senator if he wants him...

I will attempt to persuade...do what I have to do to max my chance.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on January 17, 2019, 08:06:22 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on January 14, 2019, 07:54:09 PM
On adjustments now...

Cato of the Populists donates his 10 to the Republic. Influence up 1 to 5; total Influence up to 19. Republic cash up 10 to 16.

Plautius of the Progressives donates 20 to the Republic, 1 Influence to 3, total Influence 21. Republic cash up to 36.

Aelius of the Militarists donates 25 to the Republic, up to 51 cash; up 2 Influence to 20, total Influence up to 24.

Tripoli can clarify how much he's keeping and how much else goes to Aelius as we move along.

I just caught this, republic cash should be 6+10+20+25=61. Also Aelius had 12 Influence, so 12 -> 14.

Also also! The Republic had 107 talents, plus 10 from the above, -20 for Omens so it went down to 97. And then -2 to 95.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 17, 2019, 08:47:50 AM
Will double-check those immediately this afternoon! -- thanks!

(Jeez, you'd think I recently had a lingering stomach blurgh...  ::) )
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 17, 2019, 05:41:51 PM
On Aelius, what happened was that a neuron was already focused on Manlius receiving a new minion, so I upped his influence by 2 instead of Aelius.

Manlius should have 18, and Aelius should now have 14.

Also, I keep forgetting that total influence isn't affected by whether or not a senator is in Rome. Votes are affected -- Manlius' new minion can't help vote any more than any of his other knights. So the Militarist total Influence is 42 (18 for Manlius + 14 for Aelius + 10 for Julius). But current voting power is 12 (Julius 3 Ora + 5 knights; and Aeilius 4 Ora).

The Republic income glitch came about because I was just sure I could add 25 to 36 by myself, sigh.... and so I forgot to carry a 1 or something and ended up 10 short.

Worse, when I was figuring out the Omen penalty I not only used the 51 instead of 61 figure, I shouldn't have been using 51 at all!! -- I had completely somehow overlooked the 3rd income segment, and the cash picked up at that time!

Current tally is indeed 117 -20 -2 = 95.

...I genuinely believe my math has been getting noticeably worse..  :buck2:
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 17, 2019, 05:50:01 PM
Having fixed (and saved) that: AzTank instructs Furius (his Faction Leader) to try Persuading Terentius.

Furius Influence: 9
Furius Oratory: +3
Furius adds personal cash: +3 bribing
Terentius' cash: -0
Terentius' Loyalty: -6

Currently Furius will win if his 2d6 total rolls 9 or less, which is the maximum possible chance. (Natural totals of 10, 11, or 12, automatically fail.)

I'll pause here to allow counterbribes from Faction Treasuries. Only I.I.'s Aristocrats, and Tripoli's Militarists, have any Faction cash to counterbribe with, 10 and 8 respectively. Furius has no more personal cash to add to the bribery attempt.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on January 17, 2019, 10:51:03 PM
If no one else is successful and if there are no possibly negative outcomes other than failure then I'd let Cato take a swing at the persuasion
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 17, 2019, 11:19:40 PM
Quote from: malize on January 17, 2019, 10:51:03 PM
If no one else is successful and if there are no possibly negative outcomes other than failure then I'd let Cato take a swing at the persuasion

The only possible negative outcome would be if you sacrificed cash on the bribe and failed -- then he'd keep the cash. But Cato doesn't have any personal cash, so...

On the other hand, if AzTank fails, Terence will have 3 extra cash, which will scotch Cato's chances completely. So at this point, with AzTank having confirmed he's going to try, and that he'll pay to maximize his chances, it's a moot point: Cato has no chance one way or another. Sorry.


I have at least one reason not to continue with the Persuasion roll yet, so I'll have to wait until tomorrow afternoon. Maybe early afternoon, though, since I'm planning to let the crew off early for the weekend as a reward for them finishing this week in powering through a heavy work schedule before and after (and somewhat during) the holidays.  :coolsmiley:
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 18, 2019, 06:21:29 PM
Well, despite going home early I ended up catching up on some other things first (including a nap ;) ), and then the internet got doshy.

But now I can resolve the finale to this Forum Phase!

I.I. and Malize decline to counterbribe, so AzTank goes for the 2d6. 8 or less wins (due to the evil omens)... and he rolls a 6+1. AzTank welcomes Terentius (and his 3 cash) to the Conservative faction!

This effectively ends the Forum Phase.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 18, 2019, 06:54:55 PM
TURN TEN -- POPULATION PHASE
--------------------------------------

All senators with Major Offices get a Major suspicion marker.

No Tax Farming Concessions are threatened (yet). And no Concessions need respawning.

Fabius in the Curia rolls a 5, which would normally respawn the family, but with the Evil Omens it adjusts down to 4. In effect, instead of 5 or 6 being good this turn, it's only a 6 which wins on the Curia rolls. (Because that adjusts down to a winning 5, and the Omen makes it impossible to truly roll a 6.)

The Calpurnican family rolls a 3.

Enemy Leaders have a chance of dying off, and up until recently y'all have been fortunate not to have to deal with Leaders for that reason! With the Omens active, only a 6 will end their careers early.

Philip of Macedonia rolls a 1. And Antiochus rolls a 5, but that adjusts down to a 4, so he survives.

There are no Drought effects running, and only one insufficiently-thus-Unprosecuted War: the 1st Punic. Therefore the basic Unrest taps up 1 to 1.

Field Consul Scipio Africanus of the Aristocrats is the Highest Ranking Available Officer, so he'll be Presiding Magistrate and give the Status Quo Res Publica to open the Senate.

The speech result will be his Pop 3 - 1 Unrest - 1 Evil Omens + 3d6 of 2+5+6 = 14: No Change.

This ends the Population Phase, and starts the Senate Phase.

Statesman Marcus Porcius Cato the Elder immediately steps up to act as a Tribune! -- but I'll get to that after snapshotting the mats for everyone.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 18, 2019, 07:21:03 PM
TURN TEN -- SENATE PHASE
------------------------

Unrest remains minimal at 1, for now. Evil Omens will continue haunting most rolls at -1 throughout the Turn.

The Republic currently has 95 Talents in its Treasury, and a normal income of 80 Talents next Turn.

There are 15 Legions Active, all in Rome, including two Veteran Legions with Level 1 training.

There are 7 Fleets Active, all Deployed against the 1st Punic War.

These 22 units will cost Rome 44 Talents next Turn.

Logistically, the Republic can field another 5 Legions, and another 13 Fleets -- at 10 Talents each to Raise.

Here's a snapshot of the military situation:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/4576/2NpCVE.jpg)


(The code is correct, but the snapshot isn't showing up for me yet.)

There are three Active Wars, including the technically Unprosecuted 1st Punic War, against which Manlius of the Militarists has been Deployed with the remaining 7 Fleets. The Enemy Leader Hamilcar is boosting the Punic War, including its D/S results; but unless he's Defeated on the Land Battle the Spolia Opima Event won't trigger yet.

(Two other Enemy Leaders are making their preparations, but won't factor into the coming Combat Phase.)

Next up, mat snapshots and evaluations.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 18, 2019, 07:48:18 PM
(My access to Imageshack continues to be a bit dodgy; unsure if other readers will be having problems.)

Well, I mean, duh. I.I.'s Aristocrats continue leading the Republic as the most powerful Faction -- for now. It isn't hard to see why, and that normal vote tally will be solidly juiced by their knights being inspired by Aristocrat senators leading in total Influence. Their only real weakness, paradoxically, is their strength, since this will be seen as a threat to the stability of the Republic!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/5941/TMrMMg.jpg)



I debated a little about whom to evaluate in 2nd Place, but the one serious weakness -- a reduced vote tally -- only comes because Faction Leader (and recent Roman Consul) Manlius is out in the field seeking Republican Glory. As the military threats to the Republic approach crisis levels, the Militarists can be expected to continue benefitting from their martial focus.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/6789/O4B0f8.jpg)



The Frog's Plutocrats continue shadowing 1st and 2nd place, with increasingly strong senators, a good spending economy (as might be expected), and no less than four Faction cards he's been largely sitting on all game -- which could come into play at several opportune but unknown moments! He hasn't built up the momentum recently of the top two Factions, and even has slipped a little thanks to former-PontMax Acilius (and his Faction overall) falling prey to the Evil Omens of this Turn. But the Frog has proven to be a cagey political operator. The only question is, when will he see fit to make his next move?
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/5413/pUXTr3.jpg)



It looked for a while like AzTank's Conservatives, despite stolid attempts at retrenching their position, would be permanently passed by the upwardly mobile progress of the Progressives. But the Conservatives have plodded back into a solid 5th place, and are becoming more politically relevant again, not least thanks to two strong Statesmen recently joining. Whether their position is being helped, hurt, or both, by a staunch refusal to distribute much of the Faction cash, could be debated.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/6782/Ef9qbx.jpg)



After some initial bad luck, Malize's Populists have boosted themselves into being a voting powerhouse, courted by every block, and is starting to land some Major Offices. Their overall Influence remains low, thanks to some lingering bad luck in past turns (and a late start, like the Progressives); and cash continues to be thin -- but that's partly thanks to efficient spending habits! The new Fabian Statesman Verrucosus Cuncator, joins Cato the Freaking Elder (now Faction Leader), as the new punchy fists of the Faction, one in the Senate, and one on the field. The Populists aren't likely to be dropping below 4th place anytime soon.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/4853/aryqWj.jpg)



If it wasn't for bad luck, Erax's Progressives might have no luck at all! The Kindly Ones got tired of his Faction Leader bouncing back naked after being taken, and... um... took someone they could keep for a while...
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/5981/bNQAKB.jpg)
Look, I didn't make up these myths, okay?! Ahem. Depending on what stance they take, the Progressives are punchier voters; and it should be noted that the current Flaminius has managed to buff himself up to being nearly a candidate for Consul-for-Life. But overall, Progressives remain in 6th place.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/4136/wPDLKt.jpg)



With that done, I'll need to work on my internet connections somewhat before returning to process the Tribune Proposal of Cato the Elder -- who has jumped in with an initial Consul Proposal!
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 18, 2019, 09:14:07 PM
Okay, internet is.... more or less improved: continuing on.

Cato the Elder, of the Populists, who himself also holds Tribune office (a liaison to the Senate elected directly by the people), uses his Tribune ability for the Turn, to immediately Propose a pair of Consuls!


.......at which point I have to pause, because I don't know who the Consul nominations for this Proposal are. I know what Factions they're supposed to come from -- from the Populists and from the Aristocrats -- but I don't know who yet.

Consequently, if I.I.'s Cornelius Scipio Africanus, who is the actual Presiding Magistrate right now, manages to make a SPECIFIC Consul Proposal first, I'll process votes for that first. (Or technically, anyone else's Tribune I suppose.)

It doesn't have to be about who will be Roman and Field Consuls specifically. But it does have to be about specific senators.  O:-)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on January 18, 2019, 09:57:02 PM
I will nominate Quinctius (Aristocrat) and Flaminius (Progressive).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on January 18, 2019, 10:33:30 PM
I will vote against that proposal.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on January 18, 2019, 11:55:22 PM
Cato proposes Fabius and Macedonicus

Voting against Quinticus/Flaminius
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on January 19, 2019, 08:33:21 AM
We vote against Quinctius/Flaminius (does this get me points for voting against my own senator)?
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on January 19, 2019, 10:49:06 AM
I will vote FOR Fabius and Macedonicus
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 19, 2019, 12:48:12 PM
Quote from: Erax on January 19, 2019, 08:33:21 AM
We vote against Quinctius/Flaminius (does this get me points for voting against my own senator)?

Yep!  O0

I'm off at work this morning (Saturday) doing final end-of-year processing. Praying hard. (We have an old cobbled-together remnant manufacturing accounting system and I'm always hugely worried something will go catastrophically wrong. Because in the past things have sometimes gone catastrophically wrong.  :hide: I have developed a checklist flowchart procedure over the years which a submariner would probably think approaches adequacy!)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on January 19, 2019, 12:55:33 PM
Voting order for remaining factions (if I can still declare one) will be Conservatives, Militarists, Aristocrats.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 19, 2019, 12:55:58 PM
It's fine for Players to announce ahead of time whether they'll support Cato's Proposal, but Scipio did make a specific Proposal first, and so I'll have to resolve that first!

In order to sort out the snarl, everyone should make sure they've explicitly voted about Scipio's (I.I.'s) Proposal.

If that fails, I'll process Cato's (Malize's) Tribune proposal automatically, according to private chats I'm privy to; but if you don't agree with Cato's actual senators you should speak up promptly to avoid an automatic procession from that conspiracy!

(Also, "Year End Process Complete". Which it isn't entirely yet, but...  <:-)  :notworthy: )
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 19, 2019, 12:56:57 PM
Quote from: IncompetentIdiot on January 19, 2019, 12:55:33 PM
Voting order for remaining factions (if I can still declare one) will be Conservatives, Militarists, Aristocrats.

Yep, that can still be declared, since it doesn't overlap/contradict prior explicit voting, and since you didn't already explicitly declare an order.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 21, 2019, 08:45:55 AM
AzTank declares by p-mail that the Conservatives will be voting against the Aristocrat Proposal.

That leaves Tripoli and then I.I. to vote.

Current tallies:

The Frog: -16 votes (no activists)
Malize: -25 votes (no activists)
Erax: -7 -4 activist votes
(Note: Erax voted against his own gain, too, and each of his senators has at least one knight to trigger activism; so each of his senators will gain 4 Influence win or lose! -- including if Flaminius ends up being Consul from this Proposal after all! This is arguably the ideal Progressive situation.  :coolsmiley:)

subtotal: -52

AzTank's vote: -14 -4 activist votes

subtotal: -70 votes, against the current Consul Proposal.


If you're wondering why I don't just call it for the opposition right now... well, we'll see.  :o
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 21, 2019, 01:33:51 PM
Tripoli's Militarists, and then I.I.'s Aristocrats, vote for I.I.'s Proposal. Let me tally things carefully here.

-70 votes going into the final two Factions. A neutral 0 vote won't win -- it does for Acquitting Accused senators, but not for passing Proposals. I.I. needs a net vote of at least +1.

Julius votes Ora +3 and knights +5. Net -62.

Manlius and his knights are out of Rome and cannot vote.

Aelius votes Ora +4 and bribes +7 (3 Talents remaining). Net -51.

I.I., by the way, remembered that bribes were used to buy votes in an earlier surprise outcome, and checked with me to make sure this was legal in the current situation, which it is. This is why he was careful to put himself and Tripoli last in the voting order, so that when they started bribing votes it wouldn't remind the other Players that this was a thing that can be done (using personal cash, not Faction cash.)

The Aristocrats knights trigger their activist x2 voting, due to the Aristocrats being currently the total Influence leader. (Tripoli doesn't get activist knights; his knights buff headquarter capabilities instead.)

Faction Leader Quinctius votes +2 Ora +3 knights +3 activist and +5 bribes. Net -38 votes. (No personal cash remaining.)

Valerius votes +2 Ora +3 knights +3 activist and +5 bribes. Net -25 votes. (No personal cash remaining.)

Last, Field Consul Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus votes +5 Ora +3 knights +3 activists and +15 bribes. (No personal cash remaining.)

Final net vote tally: +1 vote for I.I.'s Proposal.


I of course encourage everyone to double-check my math, which is not my strong suit.  L:-)

Flaminius of the Progressives and Quinctius of the Aristocrats will be the new Consuls, if my math is correct.

Next up (1st-and-a-half Mandatory Business, so to speak), they will need to work out among themselves who will be Roman and Field Consuls.


Second Mandatory Business will be voting for the new Pontifex Maximus. Acilius can be nominated for the Proposal. Either of the Consuls also can be nominated. The only invalid senators are Sulpy (because he isn't assigned to a Faction yet) and Manlius (because he isn't in Rome).

Note that appointing (or electing) a Dictator is 3rd Mandatory business, not 2nd!
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 22, 2019, 05:22:55 PM
Okay, doing some catchup bookkeeping here.

Aristocrat Faction Leader Quinctius by agreement from Flaminius (through a p-mail exchange) becomes Roman Consul, +5 Influence up from 19 to 24. New Faction total 66! -- still in the lead, so per Aristocrat abilities, knights will still vote activist.

Quinctius harvests an extra point of Influence, per Aristocrat abilities; I.I. must give this to Cornelius Scipio, or to Valerius.

Flaminius cedes his office of Censor, and accepts Field Consul: +5 influence, up from 18 to 23; new total influence 26.

Each new Consul already has a Prior Consul mark.

For voting against their own gain, even though they lost the vote (and so gained consular office), the Progressives parlay the humility of such a self-critical act into +4 influence for each of their senators with activist knights in that vote. Flaminius goes up to 27. Plautius goes up from 3 to 7. Total influence goes up 8 from 26 to 34!

As a reminder, Second Mandatory Business must be the election of a new Pontifex Maximus. I.I. can make this Proposal at any time (perhaps after some discussion publicly or privately), and of course so can anyone with a Tribune card. (Cato's Tribune card never activated since his Consul Proposal was forestalled by I.I.'s having actionable content! -- so his Tribune power remains poised for this Turn.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on January 22, 2019, 06:19:23 PM
(Extra influence to Valerius.)

I'll propose Plautius for Pontifex Maximus. Voting order will be Populists, Plutocrats, Conservatives, Militarists, Progressives, and Aristocrats.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 23, 2019, 05:05:36 PM
I'll have to see voting on this, as I.I.'s Consul Proposal win was unexpected and derailed other pre-laid plans I knew about.  O:-)

(I should add that I've seen a lot of different behind-the-scenes discussion about how to proceed with Deployments, so Players are focused on that right now and not so much on getting preliminary Mandatory Business done.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on January 23, 2019, 07:05:51 PM
Sure, why not?  Plautius, aye, yes.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 24, 2019, 08:37:53 AM
That's 25 votes FOR Plautius as the new PontMax.

Plus provisionally another 27 from the Aristocrats, although by going last he can avoid an influence point loss if everyone votes against his vote. (I'll have to double check that, though. It really should be a loss if everyone else votes against the PM's Proposal: he's the one who will take the point loss.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 24, 2019, 05:07:42 PM
If my math is correct  L:-) there are potentially 57 votes against Plautius (including if Erax votes against his own gain again), but already a net -5 vote thanks to Malize and assuming I.I. votes his own Proposal (which he has no reason not to at this point, though I still haven't checked the rule on when a PM loses a point of Influence by defeat).

So if only one more Player (including Erax) votes in favor of it -- and if bribes from personal cash don't factor against the Proposal! -- then the Proposal will pass.

If any Players are planning to add bribes, you'd better let me know pronto, by p-mail or hangout chat presumably...
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on January 24, 2019, 05:57:09 PM
I will vote against. 
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 24, 2019, 07:25:24 PM
AzTank up next!
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 24, 2019, 10:09:22 PM
AzTank's Conservatives stiffen the opposition with 14 + 4 activist votes AGAINST!

Tripoli's Militarists are up next.

This is getting serious, so to recap:

Aristocrats: 18 + 9 activist votes (provisionally -- he's voting last, but there's no point to him voting against his own proposal now)
Populists: 25 votes
Plutocrats: -16 votes. Net +36.
Conservatives: -14 - 4 activist votes. Net +18.

The Militarists only have 12 votes available (thanks to Manlius and his knights being out of Rome), but that will be enough to pass the Proposal even if the Progressives vote against -- which he might since that would be a safe vote against his own gain to harvest more influence!

If the Militarists vote against, though, then the Progressives themselves will be the swing vote...
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on January 25, 2019, 09:39:52 AM
Militarists vote for Plautius for Pontifex Maximus.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 25, 2019, 11:31:52 AM
Quote from: Tripoli on January 25, 2019, 09:39:52 AM
Militarists vote for Plautius for Pontifex Maximus.

This adds 12 votes to the +18 net, giving a +30 net tally. The Progressive vote could not possibly overcome this, even with bribes, so unless he plays a (verified) Tribune card to veto it, I.I.'s Proposal will pass and Plautius will be the new PontMax.

Plautius will gain 5 Influence from this, and also the special 1d6 I've set aside for generating PontMax income each Turn.

If Erax says his senators vote against this, they'll safely earn another 4 Influence each! -- having triggered an activist vote against their own gain, even though they'll end up gaining after all. (The effect will be similar to ritual humility in refusing a post and having enough other people insist you take the post instead.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on January 25, 2019, 01:11:25 PM
I've checked the rules, my Senators don't have to vote together. Flaminius is gathering too much influence and I don't want to paint a target on his back, therefore Flaminius votes for and Plautius votes against.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on January 25, 2019, 01:52:11 PM
As an aside:

Going forward I'll entertain offers for my mining concession, bids starting at 10 talents

Also I'll take bribes for votes on issues 2 votes starting at 1 talent (half invisible bribe price)

I'll also be otherwise less inclined to vote positive on issues when placed at the front half of vote order

Void if illegal in your province
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 25, 2019, 02:12:53 PM
Erax: yep, it is entirely legal for your senators to split votes like that; good idea in this case! I'll process later this afternoon.

Malize: I don't think it's possible to sell off or otherwise get rid of Concessions like that. The best you could do is auction off your support in being prosecuted for a minor corruption, and then adding your votes (along with an introductory Proposal from Cato via Tribune ability) to someone else getting the Concession later in the Senate Phase.

Of course if the Trial and/or subsequent Proposal fail(s) because too many other Players voted against it, that would not be your fault.  >:D

The only time a Concession is directly transferrable, is when it's still an unplayed Faction card. Then it can be donated or traded for compensation directly, with the beneficiary taking possession at the start of (or during) the Revolution Phase. (All Faction card arrivals are delayed until then, although any Faction card transfers during that Phase will happen instantly.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 25, 2019, 02:25:49 PM
Meanwhile, now that Erax has settled his voting strategy, finishing out this Business:

THIRD MANDATORY BUSINESS: there is at least one strong enough War to allow a Dictator. So the Consuls should decide whether a Dictator is necessary, and if so, who it should be.

Any senator in Rome (not Manlius), and not already a Consul, can be Dictator, including the PontMax. (I think, I'll have to check that. Plautius would be the only other senator who might be invalid right now).

If appointed by agreement of the Consuls, the Dictator will immediately become Presiding Magistrate of the Senate; and will immediately move to the 4th Mandatory Business, which is deciding whether and who to appoint as his Master of Horse.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on January 25, 2019, 02:37:45 PM
I believe we have agreed to appoint Julius Dictator.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 25, 2019, 07:08:03 PM
Plautius himself votes against his appointment to PontMax -- earning 4 Influence via Progressive special ability for his public humility. He also earns 5 Influence for being elected PontMax anyway (which points he can only gain once in his career, and which he'll lose again if the office is taken away!) Plautius' Influence thus goes up 9 from 7 to 16; total Progressive influence goes up from 34 to 43.

Catching up on an earlier process, the extra Influence point from Quincy's Consul win, goes per I.I. to Valerius, up from 18 to 19; total Influence up to 67.

I.I. and Erax agree to appoint Julius of the Militarists as the Republic's first Dictator! His Influence goes up 7 from 10 to 17; total Militarist Influence up to 49. Julius also becomes HRAO, and Presiding Magistrate of the Senate.

I will add here, or remind anyone who has perused the rules already, that the Dictator's Proposals still have to be voted on -- but his Proposals cannot be vetoed!

FOURTH MANDATORY BUSINESS: Tripoli must now decide whether Julius needs a Master of Horse and if so whom to appoint. This can be any aligned non-Consul (and obviously non-Dictator ;) ) senator in Rome. Note that aside from granting some ally an extra 3 Influence, there is absolutely no need for a MoH unless the Dictator Deploys for War: the overt purpose of the MoH is to add some headquarter capability during one fight this Combat Phase with his own Military skill. The MoH will not lose any office he already holds.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on January 25, 2019, 07:55:51 PM
Fair enough, I'll retain the concession.

Votes still for sale, etc
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on January 25, 2019, 10:06:06 PM
I'm thinking very seriously about sending my own guy (Aelius) as the MoH.  I'm willing to hear arguments as to other candidates for the position.  According to my calculations, Aelius would give us a total +9 DRM on the combat table, (Julius takes 10 legions against the Gauls, giving us 10 Legions + MIL 9 (Julius)+ MIL 3 (Aelius as MoH)-13 war value=+9 modifier -1 (OMENS))= 8 which translates into a +62% chance of a victory with no losses.  See https://anydice.com/.  Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 25, 2019, 11:00:10 PM
I'm not sure if it's relevant this Turn, but it might easily become relevant later, so: I'm required to resolve fights in the order of Deployment and/or Reinforcement. So for example if y'all Propose and vote first to send Reinforcement Fleets to Manlius (not being led there by someone else, but just sent to him), then that's what I'll process first.

Relatedly, Julius and his MoH will either have to Deploy last (and thus fight last), or he'll have to resign the PM post, passing it down to the next highest ranking available officer, who then would have the responsibility of Deploying Julius (and the MoH) -- if he chooses to Propose it! He might not, after all!

In principle, the Dictator and Consuls could agree to each pass down the PM to the Censor, who would then be responsible for, and free to, Propose Deployments in the order he thinks most efficient for Combat resolution. (Not counting any Tribune'd Proposals of course; or any majority disagreements or any vetos. The usual.  :D )
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 25, 2019, 11:06:36 PM
Y'all can also Propose to Withdraw Manlius with or without his Fleets -- they'll station-keep without harm if they don't have a leader -- and then Deploy someone else to command the fight; or you can Propose to Deploy someone to bring a whole other Force to his fight to attack in sequence after him (if he has enough Force to do so. A Commander with at least Minimal Force must fight, but a Commander with less than Minimum Force may legally refuse to fight.)

In such circumstances, I would be required to resolve sequential fights against a War in order of arrival, so the Proconsul(s) already there first (if they must, or will), then the new Deployment(s). The different groups would fight separately, not combined, however!

(The final fight for any War, by the way, during a Combat Phase, is against any existent Provinces that its card lists as being targets for the War. The Provinces are the only parts of the Republic that get actively attacked, and which can be captured by a War! -- and used against the Republic! Some Wars can get far enough into the mainland to threaten and destroy Concessions, too, but that's more of a random effect and not an attack per se.)

Keep in mind that if you Withdraw Manlius, that will be Other Business and so he cannot be elected or appointed to a Major Office this Turn, meaning he can't be Deployed back to War on the same Turn -- not even as Master of Horse/Ships.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 25, 2019, 11:11:10 PM
Whoops! -- wrong thread.  :-[

Carry on, we aren't changing the game.  L:-)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on January 26, 2019, 08:07:59 AM
Aelius seems like a good choice to me.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 26, 2019, 01:20:21 PM
Since the choice of MoH depends totally on appointment by the Dictator, I won't 'process' that until Tripoli specifically designates his pick. Which I know he's waiting a little on, to see if anyone wants to argue for another pick.  O:-)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on January 26, 2019, 02:09:33 PM
Anyone have a recommendation for MoH?  I'll wait until 4PM CST for input.  In the meantime, the idea of having Manlius "station keep" with the fleets is interesting.  Right now, regardless of what we do, there is a 20% chance of a disaster (a roll of 8 or 13).  We need a 15 or better for a victory.  Manlius has a strength of 6, the Carthaginians have a modifier of -13 (War Strength + Hamilcar).  With 11 fleets that gives us a 11+6-13-1 (omen) =+3 DRM, or a  37% chance of victory, a 20 % chance of disaster.  With funds, and our ability to rebuild fleets beginning to run short, I'm thinking of simply holding off the Punic War until next turn when more fleets and the expiration of the bad omen will significantly improve our chances of a naval victory.  Any thoughts from my fellow senators?

Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 26, 2019, 03:35:11 PM
I will add that you shouldn't ignore Standoffs in your cautionary analysis, which are almost as bad as Disasters: they automatically hit you for 25% losses! -- which with large Forces can be worse or even much worse than the worst combat casualties (short of a party-wipe Defeat result).


With those three (not only two!) Standoff possibilities, and with those two Disaster possibilities, you've got a 50.45% chance during any current 1st Punic War fight, of automatically losing at least 25 to 50% of your fighting Force (whether land or sea).

That's pretty dang hideous! -- and unless you Deploy someone who can nullify the War's D/S results, or who can nullify casualties on your side, or until you manage to remove the Enemy Leader (which is a pure luck roll after any fight), it isn't ever going to get any better.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 26, 2019, 03:57:08 PM
To clarify -- because the situation with Enemy Leaders is worse than I made it sound  :o -- while your Commanders (including MoH) can be killed in any non-Victory result which generates lost Units, Enemy Leaders CANNOT BE KILLED IN BATTLE! The only way to get rid of them is to defeat their currently Active War(s). And then that might only be temporary! -- they only die permanently if (1) all the Wars of their Matching Set have been Defeated, or (2) if they fail an Aging Leader roll while hanging out in the Curia. If they lose a War, and no other Matching Wars remain on the board, they just go to the Curia to await any remaining Matching Wars.

So you'll be dealing with Hamilcar buffing the Punic Wars, and their D/S results, until you either Defeat all those Wars, or until he dies a natural death while waiting for another Punic War to spawn in.


So, while Roman Legions and their HQ organization may seem overpowered, especially as the Vet Legions increase and their training regimen levels up, the Wars have a lot of advantages of their own. Even the doofy little Wars y'all have been fighting up until now (of which the 3rd Samnite is the last one), have all had this major advantage: you can't wear them out. (Except for the Pyrhhic War.) Their Land Strength is permanent. And even the doofy pre-Early Era Wars could multiply each others' (permanent!) Land Strengths, and be buffed in their D/S results and Land Strengths where they had Leaders -- most of whom died by your good luck before latching onto a War.

The 'modern' Wars against the Republic are going to be much worse. Wait until they start overrunning provinces you gained and deploying their own inherent strengths and surviving militia forces against you...!  :bd: :hide:
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on January 26, 2019, 04:10:50 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on January 26, 2019, 03:57:08 PM
To clarify -- because the situation with Enemy Leaders is worse than I made it sound  :o -- while your Commanders (including MoH) can be killed in any non-Victory result which generates lost Units, Enemy Leaders CANNOT BE KILLED IN BATTLE! The only way to get rid of them is to defeat their currently Active War(s). And then that might only be temporary! -- they only die permanently if (1) all the Wars of their Matching Set have been Defeated, or (2) if they fail an Aging Leader roll while hanging out in the Curia. If they lose a War, and no other Matching Wars remain on the board, they just go to the Curia to await any remaining Matching Wars.

So you'll be dealing with Hamilcar buffing the Punic Wars, and their D/S results, until you either Defeat all those Wars, or until he dies a natural death while waiting for another Punic War to spawn in.
...

The 'modern' Wars against the Republic are going to be much worse. Wait until they start overrunning provinces you gained and deploying their own inherent strengths and surviving militia forces against you...!  :bd: :hide:

Jason, you are a regular Angel of Light, aren't you?   ;)  You talked me into it.  The Punic War is hereby postponed, at least until the omens (or the "Correlation of Forces" as the Soviets called it) are better.... 
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on January 26, 2019, 05:44:59 PM
I have a sneaking suspicion that this isn't going to end well for me.  With that said, I nominate Aelius, noble Roman of unquestionable honor, as the Master of Horse.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on January 26, 2019, 06:39:54 PM
I did not see an order of voting.  I will vote against. 
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on January 26, 2019, 07:28:13 PM
Quote from: Ethel the Frog on January 26, 2019, 06:39:54 PM
I did not see an order of voting.  I will vote against.

Right you are, I neglected to put in a voting order.  It is:  Plutocrats,Populists, Conservatives, Progressives, Aristocrats and Militarists
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 26, 2019, 11:29:00 PM
No need for a voting order: the Dictator straight-up "dictates" who gets to be his Master of Horse.  O0 And it can't be vetoed either. (Appointing the MoH is one of the very few things a Dictator can simply dictate, ironically. ;) )

Discussion beforehand is only a courtesy poll to see if anyone has a persuasive argument for a MoH pick.

Julius picks Aelius, and that's that. His influence goes up 3 from 14 to 17; total Militarist Influence up to 52.

FIFTH MANDATORY BUSINESS: elect a new Censor.

Away from Rome: Manlius of the Militarists. Offices higher than PontMax are Julius and Aelius of the Militarists; Flaminius of the Progressives; and Quinctius of the Aristocrats.

Anyone else who has a "Prior Consul" chip, is valid for Proposal, which must be by Julius the PM or by Tribune card (or Cato). If Julius Proposes a candidate, his Proposal as Dictator cannot be vetoed (but must still be voted on as usual: he isn't an Emperor, only an emergency super-Consul.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on January 29, 2019, 10:14:41 AM
Sorry for the delay in nominating a censor.  I nominate  Junius  to serve as censor, along with the public agreement with Malize that there would no prosecution of militarists, progressives or aristocrats during Junius' term of office.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 29, 2019, 01:00:43 PM
Malize will have to publicly agree to that contract, for me to enforce it automatically.

Tripoli gave no voting order, so currently any Player can vote in any order.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on January 29, 2019, 04:05:30 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on January 29, 2019, 01:00:43 PM
Malize will have to publicly agree to that contract, for me to enforce it automatically.

Tripoli gave no voting order, so currently any Player can vote in any order.
Once Malize publically agrees, the voting order will be Plutocrats, Populists, Conservatives, Progressives, Aristocrats and Militarists
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on January 29, 2019, 11:13:33 PM
Agreed to contract, and votes in favor at the appropriate time.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 30, 2019, 08:42:03 AM
The Turn Ten Censorial Contract: Tripoli shall Propose Malize's Junius for Censor this Turn. Malize shall not launch Prosecutions of Aristocrat, Militarist, or Progressive senators for as long as Junius remains Censor.

Malize having agreed to the contract, it is publicly binding and I will automatically process and enforce it.

Tripoli automatically Proposes Junius of the Populists as Censor.

Voting order now proceeds as designated by Tripoli: Plutocrats, Populists, Conservatives, Progressives, Aristocrats and Militarists.

Malize provisionally announces he'll be voting FOR this Proposal when it's his turn. Provisionally this means the Proposal already has 25 Populist votes + 12 Militarist votes in its favor, net +37.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 30, 2019, 12:03:37 PM
The Frog reports by chat, that the Plutocrats will abstain.

Malize's votes trigger now, +25 for the Proposal.

Conservative turn to vote. AzTank says he's traveling on business and probably won't be able to vote until Thursday. (Implicitly so he can catch up on the plot, and on any plotting. ;) )
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on January 30, 2019, 04:38:39 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on January 30, 2019, 12:03:37 PM
The Frog reports by chat, that the Plutocrats will abstain.

Malize's votes trigger now, +25 for the Proposal.

Conservative turn to vote. AzTank says he's traveling on business and probably won't be able to vote until Thursday. (Implicitly so he can catch up on the plot, and on any plotting. ;) )

Just as well.  It was -51 degrees here this morning.  I'm hibernating until winter is over.... :)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 31, 2019, 02:05:45 PM
Conservatives vote -14 -4 activist votes AGAINST.

Now +25 -18 = net +7 FOR the Proposal. Presumably the Militarists would add +12, so presumptive Net +19.

Erax's Progressives vote next.

Leaving aside any risk of a Tribune veto, the result possibilities look like this:

Erax yes, I.I. yes, vote passes, duh.

Erax no, I.I. yes, vote passes.

Erax yes, I.I. no, vote fails (barely: net +19 +7 -18 -9 Aristocrat activists = net -1).

Erax no, I.I. no, vote fails.

The main question is whether Erax goes for the easy Influence oppositional vote, since (aside from any Tribunes) I.I. will be the swing vote.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on January 31, 2019, 07:35:05 PM
I've done enough influence farming, the Progressives vote for.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 31, 2019, 08:32:58 PM
Aristocrats for the swing vote then!
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on January 31, 2019, 09:13:44 PM
The Aristocrats vote for.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 31, 2019, 11:26:18 PM
That means Junius will be Censor, and will gain 5 Influence! -- though it's late here so I'll have to process that gain tomorrow.

This leads to the last (valid) Mandatory Business, Prosecutions. Junius becomes PM temporarily, and must decide whether anyone will be investigated for Minor or Major Corruption this Turn.

I'll post the list of Suspicions tomorrow, but you can also just page back to the pre-Senate snapshots, Malize, and see who has Suspicions. If the chit is on a Concession, that's a Minor Suspicion. If the chit is on or near the face of the senator, that's a Major Suspicion. (If you click to zoom and squint, you may see the Minors reading Corruptio, and the Majors reading Mayor or Maior, I forget which.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 01, 2019, 09:20:57 PM
My main computer may be dying right now, which means I won't have access to my Grogpublic TTS files for a while -- maybe.

We can do some things anyway, up to a point, and eventually I'll get those files back to access, but I'll hit a wall at some point before then where we'll have to wait until my drive can be imported (or possibly something else fixed).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 01, 2019, 11:02:55 PM
Jason sorry to hear that your Computer lmay be dying. That is always a pain. At least it is giving you a heads up. Best of luck on transferring everything over.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on February 02, 2019, 12:57:18 AM
Quote from: Tripoli on February 01, 2019, 11:02:55 PM
Jason sorry to hear that your Computer lmay be dying. That is always a pain. At least it is giving you a heads up. Best of luck on transferring everything over.

+1
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on February 02, 2019, 09:47:31 AM
Quote from: ArizonaTank on February 02, 2019, 12:57:18 AM
Quote from: Tripoli on February 01, 2019, 11:02:55 PM
Jason sorry to hear that your Computer lmay be dying. That is always a pain. At least it is giving you a heads up. Best of luck on transferring everything over.

+1

Happened to me, it's never fun. I lost some important files but discovered I'd printed them out. Whew. Now I use cloud saves for the work related stuff.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 02, 2019, 05:49:59 PM
http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=23324.msg641553#msg641553

All hail Falcon Northwest! \o/ \o/

TO THE OUTER DARKNESS WITH AVAST PREMIUM CLEANUP, WHERE THE WAILING SHALL BE AND THE GNASHING OF THE TEETH!!
εἰς τὸ σκότος τὸ ἐξώτερον ἐκεῖ ἔσται ὁ κλαυθμὸς καὶ ὁ βρυγμὸς τῶν ὀδόντων
{eis to skotos to exo_teron} {ekei estai ho klauthmos kai ho brugmos to_n odonto_n}
>:( into the darkness the outermost where shall-be the wailing and the grinding of-the-teeth  >:(

The Grogpublic may continue now.

Malize is working on some politics behind the scenes before moving forward, but we can expect an announcement soon.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on February 03, 2019, 08:21:47 AM
I'll put a major prosecution on Acilius of the Plutocrats.   Cato as Prosecutor.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 03, 2019, 01:45:00 PM
The Frog has been alerted, and will choose an Advocate (either Acilius himself or someone else).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 03, 2019, 02:07:37 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on February 02, 2019, 05:49:59 PM
http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=23324.msg641553#msg641553

All hail Falcon Northwest! \o/ \o/

TO THE OUTER DARKNESS WITH AVAST PREMIUM CLEANUP, WHERE THE WAILING SHALL BE AND THE GNASHING OF THE TEETH!!
εἰς τὸ σκότος τὸ ἐξώτερον ἐκεῖ ἔσται ὁ κλαυθμὸς καὶ ὁ βρυγμὸς τῶν ὀδόντων
{eis to skotos to exo_teron} {ekei estai ho klauthmos kai ho brugmos to_n odonto_n}
>:( into the darkness the outermost where shall-be the wailing and the grinding of-the-teeth  >:(

The Grogpublic may continue now.

Malize is working on some politics behind the scenes before moving forward, but we can expect an announcement soon.

Jason-I'm glad to hear that it worked out for you.  I may have to try the Falcon NW systems when the current computer dies. FYI, I've been using Norton's, and haven't had any of the problems you describe as having with Avast
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 03, 2019, 05:12:27 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on February 03, 2019, 01:45:00 PM
The Frog has been alerted, and will choose an Advocate (either Acilius himself or someone else).

Let me clarify that voting can proceed without him having chosen an Advocate yet. Strictly speaking he doesn't have to do that until before the final Trial.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 03, 2019, 05:28:18 PM
I'll start the Trial's vote counting.

Acilius' Influence = +6 FOR Acquittal.
Plutocrat Provisional votes = +16. (Plutocrats haven't officially voted yet.)
Populist Provisional votes = -25 AGAINST Acquittal. (ditto)

Current provisional net votes = -3 AGAINST Acquittal.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on February 03, 2019, 08:31:37 PM
The Progressives vote against acquittal (gaining some influence).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 03, 2019, 09:59:38 PM
The Progressives add -7 and -4 activist votes AGAINST Acquittal.

New (provisional) Net total: -14 votes.

Both of the Progressive senators will earn 1 Influence, win or lose.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 03, 2019, 10:12:42 PM
Doing some other upkeep meanwhile, put off while my computer was sick with the Avast Cleaner crud:

Junius, having been elected Censor, gains 5 influence, up from 8 to 13. Populist total Influence now 24.

Also, the Frog says Acilius will Advocate for himself. He has not officially declared the Plutocrat vote yet (thus neither yet decided on making a Popular Appeal).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 04, 2019, 11:21:49 AM
Militarists vote FOR conviction, ie., AGAINST acquittal

Jason-Just out of curiosity-When did you learn Greek?  Was that part of your Biblical studies?
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 04, 2019, 05:09:22 PM
Yep! -- but not official study, just picked up the ability to pick out things over the years. In this case I was patching together a couple of well-known Synoptic phrases from GosLuke and GosMatt.

I do a lot of exegetical commentary writing (unofficially), so being able to at least use grammatic tools and sources is important, even if I can't always pick out things by eye. I focus more on narrative and thematic contexts, but sometimes grammar can turn up interesting things.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 04, 2019, 05:41:18 PM
Acilius' Influence +6 FOR Acquittal.
Plutocrat Provisional votes +16
Populist Provisional votes -25
Progressives announce -7 -4. (Progressives each gain 1 Influence, Flam to 28, Plaut to 17, total up 2 to 45.)
Militarists announce -12.

Current provisional net vote = -26.

Both remaining Players, Aristocrats and Conservatives, would have to vote FOR Acquittal in order to reverse that. This wouldn't end the Trial, but it would set the probabilities for the outcome.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 04, 2019, 08:08:38 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on February 04, 2019, 05:09:22 PM
Yep! -- but not official study, just picked up the ability to pick out things over the years. In this case I was patching together a couple of well-known Synoptic phrases from GosLuke and GosMatt.

I do a lot of exegetical commentary writing (unofficially), so being able to at least use grammatic tools and sources is important, even if I can't always pick out things by eye. I focus more on narrative and thematic contexts, but sometimes grammar can turn up interesting things.

I do a bit of Christian apologetics.  Now that I'm retired, I hope to do some more. 
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on February 04, 2019, 08:19:47 PM
I'll vote against.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on February 04, 2019, 11:38:06 PM
Not sure what motivated you guys to this execution. 

But, I do want you to know that this consul used extortion--threatened to do this to me unless I paid him off. 
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on February 05, 2019, 12:09:52 AM
Conservatives vote to acquit
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on February 05, 2019, 07:42:47 AM
Quote from: Ethel the Frog on February 04, 2019, 11:38:06 PM
Not sure what motivated you guys to this execution. 

But, I do want you to know that this consul used extortion--threatened to do this to me unless I paid him off.
The Consul(s), the Dictator, or the Censor?
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 05, 2019, 09:18:28 AM
Acilius' Influence +6 FOR Acquittal.
Plutocrat Provisional votes +16
Populist Provisional votes -25
Progressives announce -7 -4. (Progressives each gain 1 Influence, Flam to 28, Plaut to 17, total up 2 to 45.)
Militarists announce -12.
Aristocrats announce -18 -9 activists.
Conservatives announce +14. (Their activists can only trigger on Proposals, which this isn't.)

Current provisional net vote = -39.

We're missing actual votes from Malize and the Frog.


The Frog is in actual real-life court today so can't post, but he sends a clarification by hangout chat: "The guy prosecuting me did the extortion. Malize. He offered immunity for 10 talents."
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 05, 2019, 09:29:02 AM
The Plutocrats decide it's time to stop screwing around, and so they make their vote: the Frog declares by chat, that he'll play a Tribune from his hand to veto the Trial. (He can only do this before or while making his vote, thus my distinction between provisional and actual voting.)

I can confirm that he does indeed have a Tribune to do this with, but I'll have to wait until after work to process it over to the discard pile.

This does NOT Acquit Acilius. His Major suspicion thus also remains.

However, it does mean that Junius has used up his one Major investigation for this Turn.

(This is why there was no point in him playing a Tribune last Turn, against the Minor Investigation, even though he was going to lose: the Censor can launch two Minor Investigations, so would have been free to just start up the Investigation again from scratch with presumably everyone voting the same as before. It would have been a total waste of a Tribune.)

This ends the Prosecution segment. All suspicions, Major and Minor, are removed until next Turn.

Presiding Magistrate duties shift back over to the Dictator Julius of the Militarists (i.e. back to Tripoli).

This also ends all Mandatory Business.

Allow me to add, that for the first time in the game, all Major Offices are now filled!  <:-) ("Governor" is not a senatorial office, strictly speaking.)

Tripoli can now proceed to Propose Other Business (or other Players can do so by Tribune).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 05, 2019, 10:03:26 AM
Quote from: Ethel the Frog on February 04, 2019, 11:38:06 PM
Not sure what motivated you guys to this execution. 


It was nothing personal.  I wanted to separate you from that Tribune card.   As far as additional business: If anyone wants to propose additional business, I'm all ears.  I won't need to be bribed.  I'm currently very concerned about the wars we are facing.  PM me or post here any suggestions on what we need to do to save Rome.  I'll wait until 7 PM CST
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on February 05, 2019, 02:53:45 PM
Following your suggestion in PM, let's raise 5 legions and 4 fleets.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 06, 2019, 08:28:09 AM
Sorry for the delay. I got stuck in an RL ice storm and got home much later than I anticipated last night.  The First order of business is to vote on military expenditures.  I'm proposing raising 4 fleets and 5 legions, for a cost of 90 talents.  To expedite, there will be no voting order-just chime in.  I will vote for the proposal.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on February 06, 2019, 12:09:41 PM
Voting for the military increase.



As a clarification on the "extortion" claim, Jason can affirm that my intent was for both myself and the frog to benefit while avoiding whatever the ruling juntas intention was in basically pointing a loaded gun at the plutocrats...and that former high priest had brought woe unto the republic mind you.

Unfortunately the plutocrats saw it as entirely selfish money grubbing on my part, when I was actually providing a relatively cheap "out".   

So now we know the value of a tribune card is somewhat the same as 10 talents?
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 06, 2019, 01:09:44 PM
Heh!

Yes, I can confirm that that was the gist of the verbal offer made to the Frog.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on February 07, 2019, 06:09:35 AM
We vote for the increase.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on February 07, 2019, 04:17:43 PM
For.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 07, 2019, 05:49:40 PM
(Note catching up, the Frog's Tribune is publicly discarded, and all Suspicions are deleted until next Turn.)

The Aristocrat vote pushes the Proposal solidly over the majority line, so the Proposal passes.

Roman cash drops 90 Talents to 5 cash.

The 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 5th Fleets return to Active duty; and the 16th through 20th Legions are created.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 08, 2019, 09:13:29 AM
Quote from: Tripoli on January 25, 2019, 10:06:06 PM
I'm thinking very seriously about sending my own guy (Aelius) as the MoH.  I'm willing to hear arguments as to other candidates for the position.  According to my calculations, Aelius would give us a total +9 DRM on the combat table, (Julius takes 10 legions against the Gauls, giving us 10 Legions + MIL 9 (Julius)+ MIL 3 (Aelius as MoH)-13 war value=+9 modifier -1 (OMENS))= 8 which translates into a +62% chance of a victory with no losses.  See https://anydice.com/.  Any thoughts?

In accordance with my proposal from several pages back, I'm proposing Julius and Aelius take 10 legions against the Gauls. 

Flaminus takes 2 vet legion and 8 regular legions against the Saminites.  This gives us 12 strength + MIL 4 (Flaminius) - 1 (omens) = 15, - 8 war value = a +7 modifier.

Manlius takes the 11 fleets against the Carthaginians but does not prosecute the naval war

I believe this proposal reflects earlier discussions I had with various parties via PM.  If I'm wrong, please correct me.  Voting will be in any order, but I will vote last to allow for any corrections (ie, if I have somehow misrepresented earlier discussions in this proposal, I'll vote against it, and we'll put together a corrected proposal)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on February 08, 2019, 09:18:37 AM
We vote in favor.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on February 08, 2019, 08:55:10 PM
For.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 08, 2019, 10:25:59 PM
Technically not a majority yet, but one more Faction will get there.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on February 09, 2019, 12:59:23 AM
For.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 09, 2019, 10:58:33 AM
I should note that technically this is a Batch Proposal: a number of Proposals of similar kinds, which is legal to do in most cases. It is illegal to batch Proposals of different kinds, and it is illegal to batch a few Proposals (like Land Bills, iirc) and to batch Laws (which we haven't gotten to yet in the game).

But this is a Batch Deployment Proposal, so that's fine.

I will also note, more relevantly, that before I can process this Tripoli must clarify the Deployment order. Strictly speaking I must resolve the Deployments in the formally stated order, and then resolve Combats later in the order of Deployments (among other rules for which fight resolutions go first, but Deployment order is the main rule for resolution order.)

This can be very important for subtle political purposes. But at the moment the main issue is this: if I resolve the Proposal under the current order, the Dictator will leave Rome with his Force (and with his MoH), and THIS WILL IMMEDIATELY CLOSE THE SENATE! -- meaning that the other Deployments won't happen! The Presiding Magistrate is responsible for managing Force Deployment, which is why if he's deploying he must leave last.

Or, alternately, he must resign his post as PM, and give management of Deployment order to the next senator in line for PM (typically the Roman Consul). The new PM can of course immediately pass the post down to the next one and so forth until reaching a high ranking available officer in Rome who then must Propose the Deployment order and Force compositions along with Commanders. Nominally if the Dictator and all Consuls are meant to deploy, then the Censor (who cannot deploy unless he's also Master of Horse/Ships) would be Presiding Magistrate and would be responsible for Proposing the Force Compositions and Deployment order.


Now: in this case it doesn't strictly make any difference, so to speed things along I'm going to pretend that Tripoli has already had Julius revise the Deployment order so that he Deploys with his Force last, and the other Consuls arbitrarily Deploying in the nominal Field Consul / Roman Consul order.

(This particular order isn't necessary under these circumstances: the Dictator or whoever is PM can deploy them in any order -- the key rule is only that when the PM as the PM departs Rome that's the end of the Senate Phase and no further actions will be taken, for which the typical expression of the rule is that the Roman Consul Deploys the Field Consul first and then himself if necessary. But since Deployment order makes no strategic difference in this case, I would simply assume a default Deployment order of Field, Roman, Dictator.)

But I figured I should use this opportunity as an example to stress how the Deployment rules work, before there are opportunities or consequences depending on my procession of the actions.  O:-)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 09, 2019, 11:13:21 AM
Oh, crap, I do need Tripoli's clarification on one point though:

Regarding Proconsul Manlius, he's already Deployed of course with a Force, so the Deployment is simply sending him Reinforcements for his Command. (Not sending a second Commander to his War, much less Recalling Manlius.)

However, if I send enough Fleets to make 11 at the War, Manlius will meet Minimum Force requirements, or actually exceed them! Minimum Naval Force in this case is greater or equal to 10, the base Naval Force of this War.

If a Commander meets or exceeds Minimum Force requirements, he MUST attack the War. He can only opt out of attacking if he does not meet Minimum Force.

Consequently, if you want Manlius to avoid attacking the Punic Fleet, he must not have more than 9 Fleets under his command at the War. He currently has 7, so only 2 Fleets (or no fleets) should Deploy as Reinforcements.

In fact, strictly speaking if the Senate votes majority in favor of him not attacking, then there's no need to send him Reinforcements at all: the War isn't going to attack him (weird as that sounds), and there's no advantage to him having the extra Fleets at hand. (Other than political games perhaps in making sure someone else doesn't have sufficient Fleet support to win their fight! -- but that isn't even possibly an issue here.)

Edited to add: I could just process the Deployment and then force Manlius to fight with 11 Fleets anyway, against the intention of the voted Deployment, but I'm treating this as my fault for not noticing and calling out the discrepancy to alert the Players in the first place. And I want to be fair.  O:-)

To save time I'll go ahead and move along into the Combat Phase, ending the Senate Phase (with the departure of Julius last), and retroactively apply the correction to the Deployment vote: either to attack with x Fleets, or to not attack with 9 Fleets or less.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 09, 2019, 11:50:36 AM
 #:-)

Okay, hang on, I was checking the most recent Living Rules (April 2018) for any clarifications.

Quote1.09.643 MINIMUM FORCE: The Senate may not propose to send a Commander to fight a War without his consent unless the combined Strength of his Force (including his Military rating) is greater than or equal to that of the War and any applicable Leader. If as a result of losses sustained in a previous turn, a Proconsul's Force falls beneath that of the opposing War, he has no such right of refusal and must attack again the following turn. [EXCEPTION: If the Proconsul has insufficient Fleet Support, no Legions when fighting a Land battle, or no Fleets when fighting a Naval battle, he is automatically recalled when the Senate Phase ends.] The Senate may not recall Legions from a Proconsul without his consent that will reduce the Strength of his Force to less than that of his War and any applicable Leaders.

I'll need to adjust my Sabrerule compilation flowchart. But the adjusted problem remains: Manlius MUST attack the Punic Fleet if he's there.

So the options are:

1.) Recall Manlius...
1a.) ...and Recall the Fleet Force with him. If the Force doesn't have a Commander, it will be automatically Recalled at the start of the Combat Phase anyway.
1b.) ...by Deploying a Replacement Commander (with or without extra Fleets). The new Commander will be in the same situation as Manlius. I don't think anyone is trying to do that, but technically Deploying a Replacement will automatically Recall Manlius.

Note that Recall is usually a separate Proposal and cannot be batched with Deployments unless Deploying a Replacement. For our purposes the important point is that if there's a Commander at the Front, there's going to be a fight! What the Commander can refuse, is to be Deployed with less than Minimum Force. Once he's there, he has to fight with whatever he's got. If you don't want to fight, Manlius must come home and no one be sent to Replace him. One way or another then, the Fleets will return home, too.


2.) Deploy Reinforcements for Manlius, so that he has more Fleets to fight with. This can be done as a Batch.

3.) Don't Reinforce Manlius, so that he has no extra Fleets to fight with. He has to fight with the seven that he's got.


In order to move things along, I won't require everything to be revoted. I just need clarification about whether the intention was to fight the Punic Fleet or not. If so, I'll fight it with what you send Manlius. If not, then I'll process a Recall of Manlius and his current Force. (Whereupon he'll be back in Rome with his votes during next Turn's Senate Phase. ;) )
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on February 09, 2019, 12:59:08 PM
I'll go along with whatever Tripoli decides.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on February 09, 2019, 03:08:06 PM
Quote from: Erax on February 09, 2019, 12:59:08 PM
I'll go along with whatever Tripoli decides.
As above.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 09, 2019, 05:05:34 PM
Hmm.  I guess I should have specified:
1) Saminite war gets prosecuted first.  S
2) Since we can prevent the Punic war from being by prosecuted by holding off on the reinforements, we will build, but not deploy the four fleets.  The Punic war then does not get prosecuted, and Manlius remains deployed.
3)  If everyone is okay with those decisions,  then we will finish up the Senate phase by deploying Julius, the MoH and prosecuting the Gauls.

Does that sound okay?
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 09, 2019, 08:13:37 PM
I'm sorry that I was unclear, since that was totally my fault for misunderstanding the rules and then having to correct myself on them.

But if you leave Manlius at the War, whether you send him Reinforcements or not, he'll have to attack it.

The only way he won't fight is if you Recall him, but if you do so will the Fleets. This won't cost you anything, they'll all just be available next Turn for Deployment.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 09, 2019, 09:34:54 PM
Yes, I don't want to fight the 1st Punic war right now. Until we build up the fleets, it is too risky. If the only way we can avoid that is to recall the commander and fleets, I want to do that.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 10, 2019, 12:22:23 AM
I'll process that all tomorrow morning then.  O:-) (Spent tonight at Cyrano's Saturday Night Fights trying to run some Mahdi safely off the board. Came close to winning, but the Brits managed to ping off too many points.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 10, 2019, 12:21:14 PM
Allll righty then! -- time to start processing!

1.) Recall Manlius. (Precedes the Batch Proposal, post hoc, or Latin words to that effect.) The idea is to avoid risking attacking the Punic Fleet yet, but if a Commander is there he must attack regardless of his Force's chances. Recalling him solves the problem; his Fleets recall with him one way or another.

2.) Field Consul Flaminius Deploys against the final Samnite War, with 2 Vet Legions and 8 Regulars.

3.) Dictator Julius and Master of Horse Aelius Deploy against the Gallic War with 10 Legions.

This ends the Senate Phase with the departure of the Presiding Magistrate (Julius) from Rome.

Up next, the Combat Phase!
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 10, 2019, 01:24:14 PM
TURN TEN -- COMBAT PHASE
------------------------

First, if the Fleets weren't recalled with Manlius, they automatically recall now. They're back at Rome in the Active Pool either way.

I have to resolve a discrepancy with Manny's Influence. His card down at the War reads 20, but his card back at Tripoli's mat reads 18. (I got into the habit some turns ago of dittoing cards in both places, with senators at war having a small War card with them on the mat. This is how province governance will eventually work, too, btw: the province card goes with the governor, to show he isn't there in Rome anymore.)

Tracking back through my notes, I discovered the problem: Tripoli originally wanted to distribute cash to Manlius in order to donate to the Republic and so pick up 2 Influence points. Distributions would have worked, but senators must be in Rome to make Donations to Republic cash. He altered that to Aelius, and we readjusted, but I forgot I had already bumped the War card to 20 Influence, too, so I didn't remember to reduce back to 18. Until now!

Anyway, Manny's true influence is 18, as on the mat.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 10, 2019, 02:13:34 PM
Enough blather about accounting. IT'S TIME TO END THE LOCAL WARS ONCE AND FOR ALL MAYBE!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/1600/jOewmT.jpg)

Field Consul Flaminius of the Progressives (and fangirl crush of the Kindly Ones  ^-^ ), vs the 3rd Samnite War!

Total Legions: 10 (1st thru 10th inclusive)
Total Veterans: +2 (1st and 2nd)
Mil skill: +4 (all used)
War's Land Strength: -8
Evil Omens! -1
DRM = 10+2+4-8-1= +7. Disaster on raw 5, Standoff on raw 17.

3d6 rolls 6+3+2 = raw 10 (no D/S) +7 DRM = 17. Victory with only one Legion lost!

Unrest goes down 1 to 0. No spoils from this War, but the final block of Samnite territory will be properly incorporated into the Roman heartland's management now. Logistic Pool increases by 5 Fleets and 5 Legions, reaching the maximum logistical limit of Legions and Fleets (per se) in the game, 25 each! The Republic's annual normal income also increases by 20 Talents to 100! This is the maximum normal or heartland income; other income must arrive in other ways (e.g. from Provinces).

3rd Samnite War is Discarded, the final remnant of the pre-Provincial Wars.  <:-)

Flaminius gains Inf and Pop of half printed land strength, so 8/2 = 4. Up 4 Influence to 32. (Total Progressive Influence up to 49.) For losing only one Legion in the fight, his Popularity is not then reduced. He must still draw one Mortality chit, to see if the Furias are hot to reward his strenuous efforts! -- but they carry off one of Cato's relatives instead (family #22).

Flaminius is now 3 Influence points away from winning the game by himself automatically. Not bad for a late-entry Faction whose senators seem prone to being carried off by the Furias!

Time to roll for the one casualty, starting from the 10th Legion working upward, until someone rolls an odd number. The 8th Legion rolls out, and dies, returning to the logistic potential Force Pool.

The 3rd Legion is the oldest non-Vet Legion in the fight, and so becomes (currently Seasoned training) Veteran! Flaminius earns their Loyalty chip.

Flam packs up his troops to return to Rome Victorious; he'll arrive (or rebel!) at the start of the next Phase.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 10, 2019, 03:42:47 PM
Second and final War for this Turn...

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/7106/PTVcWS.jpg)

Dictator Julius and his Master of Horse Aelius, of the Militarists, vs the 1st Gallic War! This will be the first Land battle of the Provincial Eras.

Legions brought: 10 (11th thru 20th)
Vet Legions: none
Julius' Mil: +9 (all used)
Aelius' Mil: +1 (used of 3, no more Legions)
War's Land Strength: -10
Evil Omens: -1
DRM thus 10+9+1-10-1 = +9. Disaster on raw 13, Standoff on raw 15.

3d6 rolls 6+5+3 = 14 (drilled right thru the D/S, yeesh!!) + 9 = way more than 18. Victory no losses!

Unrest would reduce 1, but is already 0. Rome cash up 20 from Spoils to 25. All Legions will go home alive. The oldest Legion in the fight, the 11th Legion, turns (Seasoned) Veteran! -- and Julius earns their Loyalty chit (joining the 1st's Loyalty). The 1st Gallic War Discards, but generates the first Province of this game: Gallia Cisalpina! It goes to the Forum, to await consideration during the next Senate Phase (at which time I'll introduce Provinces and discuss the card details).

Julius as Commander (but not Aelius as MoH) gains half the Land Strength in Inf and Pop, so +5 Pop from 2 to 7, and +5 Inf up from 17 to 22. (Militarist total Inf up to 57.) He didn't lose a single Legion, so his Pop doesn't go down, and he doesn't have to draw from the Death Bag (nor does Aelius). Julius starts marching for Rome with his Legions (and with Aelius).

This ends the Combat Phase, but I have some housekeeping to catch up on before the Revolution Phase.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 10, 2019, 03:44:08 PM
I just noticed according to a house rule, that if a family member of an active senator dies in battle, the senator gains 1 Pop. I haven't been keeping up with this rule, alas, even though I'm pretty sure I'm the one who devised it!

Checking back over my notes, I'll catch up here. I can't adjust popularity results after the fact, of course (i.e. where senators' popularity affected something), but I can at least bring everyone up to date.

Turn 1's Cinc vs the 1st Latin War, 3 chits drawn. Julius Pop up 1.

Turn 3's Cinc vs Volscii, 2 chits drawn. Spurius Cassius of the Conservatives up 1. (But he will retire without an heir prepared.)

Turn 3's Camillus vs the Veientine War, Stalemate no losses.

Turn 4's Camillus vs the Veientine War again, Total victory no losses.

Turn 5's Cinc vs the Aequian War, 1 chit. Fabius of the Conservatives up from 2 to 3. (But Fabius is executed by the Plutocrat Censor without an heir prepared.)

Turn 6's Manlius vs the Pyrrhic War, total Victory no losses.

Turn 7's Flaminius vs the 2nd Latin War, total Victory no losses.

Turn 8's Julius of the Militarists vs the 1st Samnite War, total Victory no losses.

Turn 9's Cornelius vs. the 2nd Samnite War, total Victory no losses.

Turn 9's Manlius vs the 1st Punic War's Navy: 11 (one of the Papirian sons dies), 17 (that's one of Plautius' cousins), annnnd 7! -- one of Fulvius' sisters gets bad news. Each gains 1 Pop.

Turn 10 as already noted, Cato gains 1 Pop.

Results: Julius up from 7 to 8. Papirius up from 0 to 1. Plautius up from 3 to 4. Fulvius up from 2 to 3. Cato up from 1 to 2 (Populist votes up from 25 to 26.)

Whew! On to the Revolution Phase.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 10, 2019, 04:01:41 PM
TURN TEN -- REVOLUTION PHASE
----------------------------
Any cards in transit would now be delivered to their new owners, but none are. Players may briefly trade or donate Faction cards with immediate arrival.

Erax may choose to have Flaminius Disband the 3rd Legion; and Tripoli may choose to have Julius Disband the 11th Legion; before handing the Legions back (or rebelling). This would earn either senator 1 point each of Influence and Oratory (until whenifever the Legion is recalled to duty.)

No one has a valid Statesman or Concession to be played at this time. (I double checked.)

No one needs to reduce their hand down to 5 Faction cards or less.

Erax and Tripoli must each declare whether they intend to rebel, or else hand the Legions back to the Republic. You may not rebel together. If each of you choose to rebel, Julius as the Dictator will take priority and Flam's attempt will be ignored.

Either of you may test the waters before making that decision, by rolling to see which active legions will support you. (Your loyal vets will do so automatically.) You may bribe any Legions once by sacrificing 1 Talent per Legion from your personal treasury, to add +1 to your dice roll. (But the Evil Omens will also subtract 1!) An adjusted result of 5 or 6 will win allegiance. This cannot be done privately, so all Players will see you publicly considering rebellion against the Republic! -- but testing the waters does not count as an official declaration.

I'll have to know your choices before continuing on into Turn 11.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on February 10, 2019, 04:41:28 PM
Bonus Pop to Fabius.

Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 10, 2019, 07:01:08 PM
I'll hand my legions back to the Republic and return to my small farm....
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 10, 2019, 07:04:39 PM
^^ Spoken like a true Republican!

(Though, strictly speaking, you're still the Dictator; so probably can't retire to the farm between Senates. ;) )

Malize distributes his bonus pop point to FabiMax, up from 0 to 1. New total vote tally 27.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 10, 2019, 07:40:08 PM
Quick Question/Reminder-Does the evil omen go away?
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on February 11, 2019, 08:02:33 AM
Flaminius disbands his loyal legion and returns to Rome.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 11, 2019, 09:47:03 AM
Quote from: Tripoli on February 10, 2019, 07:40:08 PM
Quick Question/Reminder-Does the evil omen go away?

Yes, at the start of the next Forum Phase, as with any other randomly generated Event.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 11, 2019, 09:54:47 AM
Quote from: Erax on February 11, 2019, 08:02:33 AM
Flaminius disbands his loyal legion and returns to Rome.

Mua ha ha ha haaaaa.  >:D

I'll have to process this afternoon, but now Flaminius is two points away from winning the game by himself outright.

I'm honestly a little unsure how anyone could even stop him at this point... aside from sheer luck running against him, all he has to do is patiently wait to vote to oppose a couple of votes for the benefit of other senators (or oppose one vote in favor of one of his senator's gain!), or to vote a couple of times in favor of another senator's harm (or once in favor of his own harm), and he'd automatically be appointed Consul for Life by the people! Which wouldn't necessarily win the game for him immediately, but as long as there aren't 4+ Wars on the board at the end of the Senate Phase (or at the end of the Combat Phase if so), and as long as Rome doesn't go bankrupt for whatever reason before the end of the Turn, then he'd win.


JD (or Jarhead, I forget which), has said that the new forum engine doesn't like the dice rolling module. So for the next Turn I may produce some videos to demonstrate dice rolls and chit picks etc. in as close to real-time validation as I can get.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 11, 2019, 05:14:11 PM
Julius hands his Legions back to the Republic, and the Dictator returns humbly to his fields sort of. (He'll still have to preside over the opening of the Senate next turn, if we get that far!)

Flaminius hands his Legions back, too, but also allows the 3rd Legion to Disband and retire! -- earning himself 1 extra Oratory point (from 2 to 3), and 1 extra Influence point (from 32 to 33; Faction total now 50). This puts him only two points away from a chance to win the game by himself.

The Vet 3rd Legion is placed in a special slot of the Forum, from which it might be Recalled under various circumstances, possibly still Veteran; but if the current Flaminian senator dies then the Legion will return to the Force Pool for potential reformation as a normal Legion.

I'll be recording the first Phases of the new Turn tonight, and I'll post when they're uploaded.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 12, 2019, 09:30:47 AM
Phew!!

So, I spent a little more than 2 hours filming the game last night -- not because it took anything near that long to play, but it was the only way I could think of to ensure that I demonstrated this was a continuous take with no edits. (Or rather there's one edit at about 5 minutes, where I turned the mic off away from the keyboard; I snipped most of that out because nothing was happening. But the relevant action is still almost 2 hours of a continuous take later.)

Then after some degaussing away from the keyboard, I came back and spent about an hour working up the intro and outro credits.

Then the video and audio had to compile into an uploadable mp4, which took 3 hours and around 20 minutes.

So I've got the video ready to upload, but I'll have to do that later today.


It's a good thing I did, too. Because, well... I'll include a time skip to the relevant point for players after I post the video. The rest of it is just introducing and discussing the game and the Factions for any visitors who aren't the six players or haven't been following the game here. Also I wanted to spend a little time complimenting the Players!  ;D O:-)

I might as well go ahead and spoil the results, though; the video is only a demonstration that the results were legitimate.

I'll put them behind a spoiler tag for any readers who want to wait for the video (though I can't imagine why...!) But all Players are welcome and encouraged to click through and read the results.

[SPOILER]TURN ELEVEN -- MORTALITY PHASE
----------------------------------------

No more Immanent Wars, yet, to advance to Active, which also means no Enemy Leaders activate. (We do have a couple of leaders in the Curia waiting for their Wars to spool up.)

After a vigorous shuffle of the Death Bag, I drew an x2.

That meant I had to put the x2 back, shuffle again, and draw two more chits. I drew a family number and an x2!

That meant I had to keep the family drawn out, put the x2 back again -- there are two or three in the bag, I think two -- and shuffle-pull another two chits!

This time I pulled two more family chits, so that was the end of the Death Bag's run this time. Three family chits.

One was family 21, if I recall correctly. Smack in the middle of some other families on the board! -- but not an active family yet, so no effect.

One was family 5, the Claudians of the Plutocrats! Claudius died, but since he was the Frog's Faction Leader his family card bounced back immediately to him from the Curia. In effect, he simply lost all his chits except for the Faction Leader pawn. Vote Tally and Total Influence were adjusted of course.

And the last chit.... which I could not believe... was family 13.

You all know who that is.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/5981/bNQAKB.jpg)

Yep: the Furies decided their beloved Flaminians had produced another heir truly worthy of their attentions, and came to collect him.

:hide:

If Erax didn't have bad luck, he'd have no luck at all!

Of course, as before, Flam was still the Faction Leader, so his family card bounced right back to him immediately. But all the chits are gone. Including, most pertinently, the 33 points of Influence.

(Also the loyalty chit for the Disbanded Veteran 3rd Legion, which goes back to the loyalty-chit bag, while the Legion itself flips over to normal again in the Force Pool, to be Raised normally.)

After that, there was no need to continue 'filming' the episode so after some discussion of the implications for any viewers new to the game, and some commentary on where the other Players are ranking now, I ended out.

[/spoiler]


It occurs to me, without reference to the spoiler-tag report details, that the main rules on this topic are waaaayyy too conveniently arbitrary -- a point I spend some time discussing in the video, too. Why would simply crossing an Influence goal automatically result in that senator being appointed Consul for Life? What if another senator was at 34 Influence, and in a Faction with much more total Influence, e.g. what if I.I.'s Scipio Africanus had 34 instead of 24? Wouldn't it make a lot more internal sense for him to be appointed Consul for Life instead, if anyone was going to be? Even if we explained it as a popularity effect (except without reference to popularity!?!), why wouldn't the Aristocrat 'popularity by influence' be substantially higher and more worthy of OVERTHROWING THE WHOLE REPUBLICAN SYSTEM?!

I propose therefore a house rule for consideration. Keep the minimum threshold Influence for engineering a vote for Consul for Life. (I think that's 25, or else it's 20, I'd have to check.) And keep 35 as a determinant Influence number for automatic appointment.

But: to make the result more feasible, against long-standing internal resistance against having a king, the house rule would be this. To be automatically appointed Consul for Life, a senator must have 35 Influence more than the second-most Influential senator; and also his Faction must lead in Total Influence by at least a 35 point gap.

That won't actually be much more difficult to do, in the late game, which is also part of the point: an automatic win condition shouldn't be likely to trigger until the late game.

Any discussion on this is welcome.  O:-)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on February 12, 2019, 03:32:11 PM
To be honest there's a side of me that wants to keep playing rather than go for the quick win, so I'm not against this rule... though 35 seems excessive as the major players will probably gain Influence at about the same rate. How about 20 individual / 30 faction?
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 12, 2019, 03:49:12 PM
Considering that you just got hammered by yet another bad luck draw, I am definitely willing to give your adjustment recommendation extra weight.  O:-)

Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 12, 2019, 06:50:19 PM
TURN ELEVEN -- REVENUE PHASE
----------------------------

Segment 1, Faction income.

I.I.'s Aristocrats have 10 starting cash; +0 personal cash; +3+1+1 senators income; +3+3+3 knights income; +1 priest income; +2+2 Tax Farming; +3 Harbor Fees
= new Faction total 32 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/2476/jESfZu.jpg)

Tripoli's Militarists have 8 starting cash; +3 personal cash; +3+1+1 senators income; +5+4 knights income; +2+2 Tax Farming
= new Faction total 29 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/2031/3lPj8R.jpg)


The Frog's Plutocrats have 0 starting cash; +3 personal cash; +5+1+1 (Plutocrat ability) senators income; 2x(+3+2) (Plutocrat ability) knights income; +1 priest income
= new Faction total 21 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/5982/sLUyMF.jpg)


AzTank's Conservatives have 49 starting cash; +3+3+3 personal cash; +3+1+1+1 senators income; +2+2 knights income; +1+1 priests income
= new Faction total 70 Talents! (New game record I think.)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/5847/SwR44X.jpg)


Malize's Populists have 0 starting cash; 0 personal cash; +3+1+1+1 senators income; +1+1+2 knights income; +3 Mining Concession
= new Faction total 13 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/792/7DB7Uw.jpg)


Erax's Progressives have 0 starting cash; 5 personal cash; +3+1 senators income; +1 knights income; 1d6 (-1 Evil Omens!) = +3 PontMax income; +2+2 Tax Farmer Concessions
= new Faction total 17 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/3821/usE1WZ.jpg)

Nominal Republic budget calcs: 25 starting cash; +100 standard income; -20 1st Punic War active; -2 x 18 active Legions; -2 x 11 active Fleets = projected Republican cash 47 (not counting donations, or unseen coming events).

If you're wondering about Gallia Cisalpina and Provinces generally, it'll fit in later. First a Player's senator will have to Govern it! -- but that's (Mandatory) Senate Business.



All Players should now publicly announce their distribution plans, and whether they intend to make any donations from your senators to the Republic's treasury during this Phase.

If you already know what you're going to do with your senators' cash during the Forum Phase, you can pre-plan that, too.

Incidentally, I'm not quite 10% done uploading the video. I'll add a post for it once it becomes active, of course.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 13, 2019, 07:22:10 AM
5:50 pm last night, not 10% done.

6:20 am this morning... not 77% done.

:o Good grief. Why is this taking so much longer to do than any other video I've posted??
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on February 13, 2019, 11:23:40 AM
Flaminius died again? I can't find the post.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 13, 2019, 01:48:57 PM
http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=22942.msg642204#msg642204

I marked the results behind the spoiler tag for the sake of anyone who wanted to wait for the video, for drama's sake. ;) But I invited all Players or anyone else to go ahead and read the results so we could start factoring them into the play asap.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on February 13, 2019, 02:40:00 PM
5 to Quinctius, 10 to Valerius, 17 to Scipio.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 13, 2019, 03:25:12 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on February 12, 2019, 09:30:47 AM


I propose therefore a house rule for consideration. Keep the minimum threshold Influence for engineering a vote for Consul for Life. (I think that's 25, or else it's 20, I'd have to check.) And keep 35 as a determinant Influence number for automatic appointment.

But: to make the result more feasible, against long-standing internal resistance against having a king, the house rule would be this. To be automatically appointed Consul for Life, a senator must have 35 Influence more than the second-most Influential senator; and also his Faction must lead in Total Influence by at least a 35 point gap.

That won't actually be much more difficult to do, in the late game, which is also part of the point: an automatic win condition shouldn't be likely to trigger until the late game.

Any discussion on this is welcome.  O:-)

I tend to agree with this.  My understanding is that Republican Rome was VERY opposed to Kings.  I'm not sure that anyone could have become Counsel for Life at this stage.  Here's an idea: What if you have a sliding scale? Your proposal, but have the requirements lowered for every legion lost during a civil war, to simulate war weariness? 
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 13, 2019, 03:36:11 PM
Quote from: Erax on February 13, 2019, 11:23:40 AM
Flaminius died again? I can't find the post.

Do you know how expensive bribing the Furies is?    >:D


(https://i.imgur.com/VmB7WyN.jpg)

Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 13, 2019, 03:50:48 PM
25 Talents to Aelius, 4 to Manlius
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 13, 2019, 05:07:46 PM
For those who were waiting (for some reason  ::) ):



1:34:30 for the Mortality Phase action.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 14, 2019, 09:10:14 AM
I just noticed that the new brother board Armchair Dragoons seems to have a functioning dice-roller mod, so I may create a thread to link to from here occasionally for that purpose (including the death bag which can be represented by a die with something like 40 sides: the first 30 or however many sides would be the total number of important families in the game; the next two or three sides would be the x2 chits; and the last several sides would be the blanks. I'd nail those down precisely first of course.)


Still need cash management from the Frog, AzTank, Malize, and Erax (not necessarily in that order).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on February 14, 2019, 12:52:09 PM
5 Fabius for knight
Remainder to faction
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on February 14, 2019, 03:13:00 PM
5 to Claudius to buy a Knight; the rest to Acilius, who will sponsor the most expensive games he can afford.  I forget the price point. 
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on February 14, 2019, 03:59:45 PM
All 17 on Plautius.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 14, 2019, 08:46:57 PM
From chat, AzTank says, "5 to each of my guys."

Will try to get everything processed tonight!  O:-)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 14, 2019, 09:19:05 PM
All cash distributed as instructed. This ends Segment 2.

Segment 3, Rome's income starts with 25 Talents; +100 standard income; -20 1st Punic War active; -2 x 18 active Legions; -2 x 11 active Fleets = new Republican cash 47.

This ends the Revenue Phase.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 14, 2019, 09:38:42 PM
TURN ELEVEN -- FORUM PHASE
--------------------------

Evil Omens finally disperse. Spolia Opima remains (until the next defeat of an Enemy Leader in a Land Battle.)

The Forum Phase starts around the table from Tripoli's Militarists (thanks to him controlling the HRAO, Dictator Julius). They roll 6+2, so he draws a Scenario card...

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/746/vsFnOj.jpg)

...the 1st Illyrian War!



This War has another Matching War, which you can expect to arrive in this Era or relatively early in the next Era.

Fortunately, this War starts Inactive. Unfortunately, this is the first War that creates a Drought Event! This happens when Wars either invade the Italian heartland, or (as in this case) when they interfere badly with critical trade. The Drought Event caused by this War triggers even while the War is Inactive, and will stay in the Forum (stacking with any other Droughts) until the War is Defeated.

This War will require 3 Fleets of Naval Support for any Force of Legions, but won't require defeating a Naval strength first. Its D/S results are not very worrisome, only a little more than 4% chance total. It isn't very strong by itself, only a 5 Strength, and if both Wars of the Set are Defeated, Rome will acquire the Province of illyricum (though you'll still get 10 Talents of Spoils for Defeating this one). If Rome somehow acquires the Province of Macedonia first, the Illyrian Wars will attack it!

I'll pause here for Tripoli to manage his senators.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 14, 2019, 10:36:00 PM
Manlius will spend 4 and roll for a knight.  Aelius will donate  25 to ROme for the influence
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 15, 2019, 09:27:37 AM
Quote from: Tripoli on February 14, 2019, 10:36:00 PM
Manlius will spend 4 and roll for a knight.  Aelius will donate  25 to ROme for the influence

Hmmm, donations should have been made back in the Revenue Phase -- back when it might save the Republic from bankruptcy through normal expenses!

But I'm willing to allow donations to happen post hoc.  O:-)

I won't be able to process the knight roll, and next round (Frog's), for another seven hours at least; but he's already given me instructions (though if his draw creates a new opportunity for him I'll pause there to let him reconsider expenses.)

Assuming I run the Frog's round automatically after all, AzTank will be next around the board.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on February 15, 2019, 03:19:47 PM
I'd like to re-allocate if possible, 1 to Flaminius the rest to Plautius. Flaminius will spend that 1 on a knight roll.

If not allowed, he rolls with no talents.

And I might not be available for the weekend.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 15, 2019, 03:36:21 PM
I'll allow that retroactively (thanks to asynch), once we get around the table to you.  O0
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 15, 2019, 09:03:33 PM
Manlius sacrifices 4 and rolls to attempt his 5th knight. Only a 1 will lose, but he easily clears it with 5. His Mil skill goes up 1 to 8. Normal Vote Tally up to 19. Aelius donates all 25 Talents (retroactively; Trip forgot when donations happen). 3 Influence points, up from 18 to 21; total Influence up to 62. New Republican cash 72.

The Frog's Plutocrats roll 5+4 (y'all would be hella good at craps, btw!) which is a Scenario card: it's a red text Faction card, giving him 4 facedown again. I've sent him a pmail to let him know what it is.

Claudius (per the Frog's instructions) sacrifices all 5 to automatically buy a knight. Vote tally up to 13. Acilius spends 13 of his 16 on Sponsoring Games, increasing his Pop by 2 to 0. (Also reducing Unrest by 2, but it's already 0.)

AzTank's Conservatives roll 5+3 which is almost a Random Event but not quite, so he draws...

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/3309/JIRD8p.jpg)

...the 1st Macedonian War!

King Philip V has finished his preparations and launches his bid for Successor. First task, bring the upstart Republic to heel! The Macedonian Wars are by themselves threats to the Republic's existence -- if all four are still Active at the end of a Combat Phase, the Republic crashes and burns! And unless Philip randomly dies (which is unlikely), he'll be around to pump up all of them with no less than 6 points of War Strength! (And stacking his D/S results.)

The only good news, per se, is that the card says you only have to expect two of these Wars during the Early Era. Then again, y'all are steadily working your way into the start of the Middle Provincial Era: you still have 8 cards of definite Early Era remaining, so the new Era won't start this Turn, but the chances are good it might start next Turn!

At any rate, you now have two Active Wars again to deal with (bleeding the Republic's Treasury together at -40 per Turn), both of which have strong Leaders. You're going to need 10 Fleets as support for your Legions, too -- but at least you won't need to punch past any Macedonian Fleets first. Defeating this War won't earn you any new Provinces (yet), but you'll get 25 Talents back from Spoils.

I don't have instructions from AzTank yet, so I'll pause here and p-mail him.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 15, 2019, 09:33:55 PM
Meanwhile, since AzTank doesn't have any options that will affect beyond his own mat, I can continue on.

Malize's Populists roll a 5+2, and that's a Random Event! 3d6 then: 5+3+1=9, and that's another Drought card. It stacks with the Drought being caused by the Illyrian War, but this one will go away at the start of next Turn's Forum Phase.

Per Malize's instructions, Fabius Maximus sacrifices his 5 distributed Talents to automatically Persuade his first minion: Populist Vote Tally goes up to 28. Unless Malize decides to shift his Faction Leader from Cato to someone else (which seems unlikely), this ends his Round.

Erax's Progressives roll 4+2, almost another Random Event but a Scenario instead. They draw...

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/8092/gtyqjx.jpg)

the Syrian War. Antiochus, perhaps having detected that his Successor rival Philip was making his move (or vice versa?), also finishes his preparations.

This War would almost be a joke, except for Antiochus punching its Land Strength up by 6 points! Oddly, Rome won't gain a Syrian Province by defeating it; and the card effectively states this is the only Syrian War in the game. And yet, if Syria is already a Province then this card would trigger a Revolt! So it must be possible to gain the Syrian Province somehow, and the designer seems to be hinting it can (or will) happen in the Early Era. I honestly don't recall how...! -- but, to be equally honest, I wouldn't reveal plot spoilers if I did. ;)

You may not gain a Province for Defeating this War, but you'll gain a massive spoil of 45 Talents! And you won't need to fight a Navy, nor even supply more than 2 Fleets for Logistic support. The main problem, aside from a respectable 12 combined strength (which won't magnify since the Syrian War is not part of a set), is that Antiochus almost blankets the upper half of any combat rolls with D/S results! -- the half which contains ALL THE VICTORY RESULTS! You'll need to roll low and then punch past that deadly zone with your Legions to win. (Also, this War would seriously threaten to roll up and conquer no less than three Provincial targets, but since the Republic doesn't control them right now that's a moot point.)

This brings Rome to 3 Active Wars again (plus another one Inactive fortunately, which I do not recommend aggravating unless you want everyone to lose the game!)

Erax did not leave any senator-management instructions, so I'll pause here. (Note that Erax said he'll be gone for the weekend, so we may not hear back until Sunday night or Monday sometime.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 15, 2019, 09:40:18 PM
Quote from: Erax on February 15, 2019, 03:19:47 PM
I'd like to re-allocate if possible, 1 to Flaminius the rest to Plautius. Flaminius will spend that 1 on a knight roll.

If not allowed, he rolls with no talents.

And I might not be available for the weekend.

Oh, duh, forgot that. I'll process immediately!
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 15, 2019, 09:47:19 PM
Erax retroactively (with permission) re-allocates 1 Talent to Flam, to help with a knight roll attempt. He'll thus win on a 5 or 6, but he rolls a 1.

I don't know what else Erax might have had planned for Plautius, but no new families have become politically active yet; and Sulpy has waaaay too much cash and loyalty (to himself!) for Plautius to punch through with a feasible Persuasion attempt. I'll consider some retroactive action, but for all I know unless Erax wants to take away the one thing keeping Flam in the game so far (Faction Leader status!) then he's done for this Round.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 15, 2019, 09:56:51 PM
That brings us to the final Forum Round for this Phase, I.I.'s Aristocrats, who roll 2+2, a Scenario draw. It's a red-text Faction card, sent to his hand facedown (he has one card now).

I've pmailed him to let him know what the card is and its details for when/how to play it; and also to remind him that I don't have instructions for managing his senators yet.

And with that, I expect I'm done for the night!  O:-)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on February 15, 2019, 11:41:04 PM
5 on a knight for Valerius.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 16, 2019, 12:18:31 PM
Valerius sacrifices 5 Talents for an automatic 4th knight, leaving 5 personal cash. Normal Vote Tally goes up to 19; activist votes add 10 now.

AzTank says Aemilius Paullus will sacrifice his 5 Talents on his first knight, the idea being that Conservatives should specially buff their Statesmen as much as possible in order to take advantage of the Conservative inheritance special ability! Normal vote tally goes up to 15. Activist extra votes go up to 5.

This ends the Forum Phase. 18 cards remain in the Early Provincial deck, so we'll get at least one more Turn in the Early Era.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 16, 2019, 01:33:04 PM
TURN ELEVEN -- POPULATION PHASE
-------------------------------

All major offices from PontMax upward get Major Suspicion markers.

No Wars are threatening heartlands yet, so Tax Farming Concessions are safe. Nor are there any destroyed Concessions in the Curia to respawn.

The Calpurnican and the Fabian families each fail to respawn out of the Curia. (This is most important for Fabius Maximus of the Populists, since the rules require his family to be out of the Curia before Malize can collect their card under him.)

All currently active Enemy Leaders have already left the Curia to join their Wars, so no natural-death rolls for them.

Adjusting Unrest: starts at 0, +1 +1 for Droughts; +1 for the 1st Punic War being Unprosecuted. (The freshly Active Wars don't count, yet.) New Unrest 3.

Julius of the Militarists, being the Dictator, and thus the Highest Ranking Available Officer in the city, starts the Senate by giving the State of the Republic speech. His (maximum!) Popularit of 9 - Unrest 3 + 3d6 results of... 2+3+6, equals 17. This subtracts 2 from the Unrest, down to 1.

With that, the Senate opens. Here are the pre-Senate mat snapshots!

The indisputable game leader right now, I.I.'s Aristocrats are the total package; although some of their dominance could shift during the Mandatory Business, since their influence is being encroached by the Militarists (and with it, their activist-boosted 29 votes.)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/5369/ECUyLq.jpg)



Just as indisputably in 2nd place, Tripoli's Militarists are well-poised to continue reaping the benefits of being the preeminent butt-kickers for the Republic. Their Influence closely rivals the Aristocrats, and their normal vote tally actually equals their rivals! They do lack the cash generation/reserves, but this sort-of fluctuates around: Tripoli spent a lot more of his cash this Turn than I.I. did, and the Militarists don't generate much less per Turn!
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/4143/1WnEir.jpg)



Thanks to being a perennial target, plus bad luck from the death bag this turn, the Frog's Plutocrats dove down to 4th Place this Turn. The Frog is a canny political operator, however, with four Faction cards being held in reserve for opportune moments! -- and his ability to generate cash, and thus to buy his way out of his slump, cannot be ignored. The only question is whether the current Top 3 will retain their momentum, or stumble out of his way. Or be pushed... ^-^
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/9129/JkQYJY.jpg)



Are the Conservatives still in 5th Place? I seriously had to wonder if AzTank hadn't solidly passed the Frog this Turn! If you take his Influence, votes, and cash, guess what? -- only the Aristocrats have a higher total, and not by much!! He has two priests, two former Consuls, a nice Statesman of his own (who could parlay his ability to void Macedonian D/S results into a Consulship soon); heck, he's one of only two Players with four senators right now! But some of these factors are a little deceptive: he has been highly (maybe ludicrously) conservative in his cash expenses so far, which is why he has so much but also affects the growth of his senators, two of whom are brand new anyway. He's coming back, but his strength is more potential than actual. Yet.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/9629/sCxXr2.jpg)



Malize's Populists continue in a solid 3rd Place, hampered mostly by a surprising lack of cash income. With four senators, and with a normal vote tally only a touch less than the Aristocrats' activist boosted votes, he could gain ground easily, both objectively and relatively -- especially if the Militarists pass the Aristocrats in total Influence soon! Cato's rechargeable Tribune ability remains potent, and Fabius Maximus could be strategically worth to deploy with his amazing defensive abilities against any War. There's a chance he might be able to parlay his relative neutrality into re-electing Junius as Censor, too.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/7979/x5QT1k.jpg)



Erax's Progressives, after coming within a short putt of WINNING THE WHOLE GAME BY THEMSELVES -- which I wish to emphasize out of praise for his skill at playing the game -- has, alas, fallen prey to the Kindly Ones once again. The new Flaminian senator has a long way to go before regaining the heights of his family's legacy. Plautius should not be discounted, but he's carrying the Faction by himself right now. I will note that Erax has mastered the subtle political art of making his harmlessly low vote tally a credit instead of a debit! Still, by any metric, the Progressives are back to being last place again. For now.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/5990/yX8bMc.jpg)


The Forum is stacking up with opportunities and with problems. One of those Droughts will resolve out next Turn, but the other stays with the Illyrian War (which dare not be attacked so long as the other Wars are burning). The Spolia Opima looks ready to be collected at last by some Commander; and Rome's first Province will need to be assigned a Governor this Turn! (Note that unassigned Senators, like Sulpy smirking over in his corner, can be voted in as Governors...) I'll start discussing Provinces soon.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/4356/nOm4Bd.jpg)



(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/3829/SAN3sG.jpg)
I'm not even going to include the Inactive Illyrian War here: these three Active Wars are more than bad enough! Each is punchy in its own right, and each is supercharged by a dangerous Enemy Leader. The Syrian War is surely the most vulnerable among them, as well as the most reward for the risk; the Punic War will grant two Provinces if beaten, but needs a Naval Victory before Legions can land and fight against an oak-tough foe. It and the Macedonian War can each be expected to spawn a sequel War during this Era, which will multiply their strengths accordingly -- and risk the total collapse of the Republic!

Currently the Republic has 72 cash, with 100 normal income (plus some semi-random income from the new Province next Turn, more on that later). The three Active Wars will eat 60 Talents among themselves, however! -- and unit upkeep alone will cost 58 more! This leaves roughly 54 Talents to spend, which will quickly eat into any safety net against bad luck events next Turn...
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 16, 2019, 01:34:30 PM
TURN ELEVEN -- SENATE PHASE
---------------------------

First Mandatory Business is for Tripoli, through Julius, to Propose two new Consuls (or for someone else to do so via Tribune). Whoever becomes Roman Consul will decide whether the Republic needs a Dictator again this Turn -- which can in fact be Julius again!
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 16, 2019, 01:50:02 PM
Okay, with that out of the way, let me talk a little more about Provinces now.

The only truly necessary details to know at the moment, are:

* Provinces must have Governors. Thus Province Governorship is a Mandatory Business, although the last one (after offices and investigations for corruption). Governors are Proposed and elected just like Major Officers. Even unassigned Senators (e.g. Sulpy over there) can be voted in as Governors!

* A Province can only have one Governor at a time. Governors serve 3 Turns, during which time they are away from Rome -- and so cannot vote (including with their minions) nor hold office! (Nor are they vulnerable to several things, such as assassinations...) The Turns tick off at the end of the Revenue Phase, and I'll keep track of that.

* Each Turn, Provinces have a small random chance (much larger for Governors from the Expansionist Faction, currently unplayed!) to Develop, at which time its card flips over to the green side. Developed Provinces earn more taxes, and can field more military power. Provinces can be destroyed to various degrees, returning them back to Undeveloped in the Forum, or even sending them to the Curia to randomly respawn later!

* Provinces can be attacked by Wars, and some Provinces (including your first one for this game, Gallia Cisalpina) can be attacked by Random Event Barbarian invasions. If a War Defeats a Province, the Province will join the War, adding its military power! -- until the War is Defeated, sending the Province (flipped back to Undeveloped) back to the Forum for reassignment under a Governor.

* Provinces can be Garrisoned by Legions (including Vet Legions), but not by Fleets. The Legions cannot be used for fighting except in Province Defense -- unless the Governor rebels! The Governor Commands these Legions in normal Defense, and surviving Legions will progressively become Veteran under him, with the usual Loyalty perqs.

* Aside from any Garrisoned Legions, Provinces also have an inherent Land Strength (sometimes also a Naval Strength), just like a War. On top of that, Governors can (and actually must) spend local taxes improving Provincial defenses by raising militia brigades and fleets. These fight for Romans at half-strength, but can and will follow a rebelling Governor automatically into War against Rome. (Garrisoned Legions, aside from Loyal Vets, must be test-rolled as usual.) If a foreign War conquers the Province, it won't raise more militia but any surviving militia will fight at full strength against Rome! -- as will the printed Land and Naval Strengths!

* Provinces generate tax income for the Republic, and also provide opportunities for Governors to skim a little extra for themselves.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 16, 2019, 02:09:29 PM
Here's a closeup of your first Province in this game, next to its position on the map for reference. (The map position doesn't actually mean anything: the card itself will go to its Governor on his Players' mat, to signify the Governor is out of Rome.)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/7553/oojvg7.jpg)

The little things that look like metal wheel hubs, are metal wheel hubs on the physical cards.  8) This allows players to rotate variable numbers into place, rather than using chit markers. But we don't have that functionality, so I'll use chit markers.

Roughly clockwise from the top left:

The Province name, being white text outlined in black, and underlined, means its vulnerable to random Barbarian Raids. It will also be attacked by three kinds of Wars, as printed in the center. (Most Provinces are not vulnerable to that many War types.)

The crossed swords in the upper right, just like a War card, means it has a permanent Land Force equal to one regular Legion. This Force cannot take casualties and does not need upkeep, just like a War's.

Somewhat confusingly, the Fleet Strength symbol for Provinces is the Support symbol for Wars: an anchor instead of a boat! In this case, it's a mostly landlocked Province so it has no Fleet Strength (and relatedly, cannot raise a militia navy.)

"Provincial Spoils" go to the Governor, although there are risks involved (which I'll talk about during the Revenue Phase).

"State Income" goes to the Republic, although there's a chance the Republic has to pay money in upkeep that Turn instead! (The Governor doesn't get this expense either way.)

"Local Taxes" are spent each Turn by the Governor raising militia. This is entirely automatic for this Province: the Governor can choose the proportion to spend on Fleet and/or Land militia, but that choice is impossible here. I'm not sure what happens to excess local taxes.

Lower right box shows how many local militia brigades have been raised in the Province, up to the printed maximum. (Lower left box would show militia fleets and their max.)

Middle lower box shows how many Turns remain before the Governor goes home and a new Governor (possibly him) must be elected.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 16, 2019, 05:12:15 PM
I'm open to comments/suggestions/proposals (along with arguments)for the nomination of counsuls.  Remember, we are still in danger of loosing to the rapidly spawning wars.  I have some ideas, but I want to hear from the Senate (ie, all of the players) with their suggestions and reasons for.  I would prefer the suggestions be made in the open forum, so all players can hear and respond to them.  Remember, the Republic remains in serious danger.  I'm guessing that we need to fight and win two wars this turn to start to breath easier.  The appointment of the counsuls should be done with this in mind.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 16, 2019, 07:35:07 PM
One more factor to keep in mind, is that you can make political use of the Last Ditch Factions to void any one game-loss condition for as long as a senator from those Factions is the Highest Ranking Available Officer.

Currently your Unrest is pretty manageable, so the relevant Last Ditch Factions are the Militarists and the Plutocrats. The Republic can survive 4 or more Active Wars at the end of a Combat Phase, if a Militarist is HRAO; and the Republic can survive expenses going under zero if a Plutocrat is HRAO. (The Republic can survive the treasury merely being under zero with anyone; it's the action of spending below zero which is fatal, and which a Plutocrat HRAO avoids losing the game from.)

But of course, this can be a little more tricky than it sounds: you have to make sure the right senator is HRAO at the right time to avoid the fatality. And it can only avoid one game-loss condition at a time. If you appoint a Plutocrat as Dictator in order to guarantee (as much as possible, keeping bad luck in mind -- a Plutocrat died in the Mortality Phase this turn for example!) that you'll survive spending cash below zero, and you use that to go into debt loading up on your Logistic maximums, you'll still lose if there are 4+ Wars Active at the end of the Combat Phase.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on February 17, 2019, 02:15:35 AM
Quote from: Tripoli on February 16, 2019, 05:12:15 PM
I'm open to comments/suggestions/proposals (along with arguments)for the nomination of counsuls.  Remember, we are still in danger of loosing to the rapidly spawning wars.  I have some ideas, but I want to hear from the Senate (ie, all of the players) with their suggestions and reasons for.  I would prefer the suggestions be made in the open forum, so all players can hear and respond to them.  Remember, the Republic remains in serious danger.  I'm guessing that we need to fight and win two wars this turn to start to breath easier.  The appointment of the counsuls should be done with this in mind.

IMO we need to utilize our senator's abilities vs. these wars.

Dictator - Julius vs. Carthage
2nd - Fabius Maximus  vs. Syria
MoH - Aemilius Paullus vs. Macedonia
Censor - Manlius (as Militarist HRAO backup vs. wars since all above would be deployed)

if we prosecute all the wars, or focus on a couple, or whatever -- this should be our line up until we knock 2 of these wars to the curb (or the war that person is best at prosecuting is resolved)

Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 17, 2019, 11:35:43 AM
As a reminder of Statesman capabilities, going clockwise around the table from Player 1 (I.I.) -- note that no Statesman nullifies Enemy Leader D/S.

Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus of the Aristocrats: nullifies Punic War D/S, 5 Mil.

Julius of the Militarists: not a Statesman, but has 9 Mil Skill.

Manlius of the Militarists: not a Statesman, but has 8 Mil. (Teaming him up with Julius in a Dictator/MoH punch will maximize Legion capabilities, but will minimize defense.)

Lucius Aemilius Paullus Macedonicus of the Conservatives: nullifies Macedonian D/S, 5 Mil.

Cato the Elder of the Populists: completely useless at fighting, included for completion in case someone asked. ;)

Quintus Fabius Maximus Verrucosus Cuncator of the Populists: as Commander (not MoH!), halves all friendly combat losses rounded up, regardless of the War, or the combat results! Mil 5. Teaming him up with one of the two Great Militarists will very much balance offense and defense, since his ability doesn't only work on D/S, or on particular wars. He won't stack directly with other special ability Statesmen, since abilities don't trigger with MoH (unless printed otherwise on the card -- and I'm not sure I recall if there are any such Statesmen). However! -- he could make a good multiple Force attack with another Statesman, each Commanding a Force against the same War.

Honorable mention, Flaminius of the Progressives: he's the only other active Senator who has a 4 Mil. Everyone else has 3 or worse.

Honorable mention, Aelius of the Militarists: not for his Mil, which is only 3, but as a reminder that the people won't care who exactly is HRAO during a crisis, only whether he represents a Last Ditch Faction. Manlius and his 8 Mil might be a waste as a backup HRAO!

Honorable mention, any of the Plutocrats: don't forget that one major military strategy would be to appoint one of them Dictator and then use his financial power to load up on Legions and Fleets now. This would of course reduce your striking power this Turn (and future Turns if he needs to stay appointed to keep the Republic solvent until a positive cash safety net is re-established by Spoils and new Province incomes), and shifting over to someone else as Dictator to maximize striking power with a Master of Horse at a later turn might be financially risky. But it would allow the two Consuls to hit with a full 25 Legions and/or Fleets immediately, and would let full Reinforcements be sent to Proconsuls on future Turns.


Perhaps relatedly, but of great importance: DON'T FORGET THAT THE OTHER TWO ACTIVE WARS STILL NEED FLEET LOGISTIC SUPPORT!

If y'all attack the Macedonian War, you MUST assign 10 Fleets to protect and support the supply line. This is not optional -- without sufficient Support they won't even Deploy; and if Fleets are taken back to any level below Supply then all Forces Deployed at the War will withdraw home. (Also, Fleets on Supply duty aren't in danger from random losses or whatever: it's assumed that any minor losses to the multiple Fleets can be made good with trivial expenses below the game's threshold of detection.)

Similarly, if y'all attack the Syrian War, you MUST assign 2 Fleets for Supply duty.

By deduction, those Fleets cannot be used elsewhere, for Supply duty or otherwise!


Also, keep in mind that while you can assign Legions to a Naval Battle in order to hit the Land fight immediately, assuming you punch through, they do risk being destroyed with Fleet losses. In the vanilla rules, those Legion losses are automatic and in parallel with Fleet losses, which is dumb.  ::) In other words, out of 25 Fleets assigned with 1 Legion to a Naval Battle, the one Fleet that takes casualties will be the one carrying the Legion!

I've got a house rule to make that more reasonable, since even the dumbest Commander wouldn't lead with his transporting Fleets: non-transporting Fleets will roll for casualties first, highest Fleet number to lowest, with the Legions being packed into the lower Fleet numbers (1st Fleet will always carry a Legion for example), and with Vet Legions assigned to the lowest Fleet numbers (1st Fleet will always carry a Vet Legion); and with a 2/3 preference for non-Legion Fleet casualties, 50/50 chance otherwise as usual. (Vet Legions won't get extra defense bonuses obviously.)

So if 20 Fleets are carrying 10 Legions, two of them Vets, then on any Casualty result (beyond total wipe), I'd test the bottom 10 Fleets first for casualties, death on 3 or higher (1 or 2 survives). Then if any casualties still need to be filled out, the higher 10 Fleets would be tested going up at a 50/50 rate (odd dies with its Legion, but the Fleets with Vets get tested last). If any casualties still need filling out at the end, start over from the bottom at the same rates.

(This hasn't been posted to the Sabrerule compilation flowchart / house rules yet.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 17, 2019, 11:49:19 AM
Oh, and keep in mind the 35 Influence auto-win trigger!  >:D

There are ways around this, like a public contract to permanently rescind one or more senators from accepting Consul for Life (or to rescind a whole Faction); and later in the game a Law (if the Players pass it!) will permanently get rid of this rule.

Or, we could work up a house rule along the lines suggested by Erax and I. This hasn't strictly been done yet tho.....
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 17, 2019, 12:32:08 PM
How about this:
1) Lucius Aemilius Paullus Macedonicus (Conservatives) becomes Dictator.  Takes Manlius of the Militarists as MoH.  Prosecutes the evil Phillip V in the Macedonians with 12 regular legions and 10 fleets. Odd are: ((12 (Madedonian War Strength) + 6 (Phillip V))- (12 (Legions)-5 (Macedonicus)-(7 Manlius (Normally an 8, but limited by the # of legions))= +6 DRM=37% chance of 18 or more, and all losses are halved due to Macedonicus's special ability.

2) Julius (Militarists) and 9 legions including the 3 vets and the 2 naval v. Antioch and the Syrians.  Odds are ((6 (Syrian War) + 5(Antioch III))-((9 Legions)+3 (veteran legions)+9 (Julius))=+10 DRM=83% chance of victory with no losses.

3) Illyrian War, 1st Punic War are unprosecuted

4)Aelius of the Militarists as a counsel who remains in Rome.  I believe since he would be the HRAO, as the dictator Macedonicus is deployed.  If we get 4 wars, we don't lose automatically. 

5) No prosecutions of anyone.  We are trying to save the Republic, not settle scores.


This system gives us the best chance of preserving our forces (and therefore money), winning two major conflicts.  Having the 5th place conservatives as dictator does not risk giving any side too much power.

Jason-Is my logic and facts okay here?  ie, we have 3 vet legions, 20 legions total, etc?  Also, we could negotiate over the number of vet legions.  Maybe give one to Macedonius to increase his odds, etc.

FYI-Odds calculator here: https://anydice.com/
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on February 17, 2019, 01:20:53 PM
Quote from: Tripoli on February 17, 2019, 12:32:08 PM
How about this:
1) Lucius Aemilius Paullus Macedonicus (Conservatives) becomes Dictator.  Takes Manlius of the Militarists as MoH.  Prosecutes the evil Phillip V in the Macedonians with 12 regular legions and 10 fleets. Odd are: ((12 (Madedonian War Strength) + 6 (Phillip V))- (12 (Legions)-5 (Macedonicus)-(7 Manlius (Normally an 8, but limited by the # of legions))= +6 DRM=37% chance of 18 or more, and all losses are halved due to Macedonicus's special ability.

2) Julius (Militarists) and 9 legions including the 3 vets and the 2 naval v. Antioch and the Syrians.  Odds are ((6 (Syrian War) + 5(Antioch III))-((9 Legions)+3 (veteran legions)+9 (Julius))=+10 DRM=83% chance of victory with no losses.

3) Illyrian War, 1st Punic War are unprosecuted

4)Aelius of the Militarists as a counsel who remains in Rome.  I believe since he would be the HRAO, as the dictator Macedonicus is deployed.  If we get 4 wars, we don't lose automatically. 

5) No prosecutions of anyone.  We are trying to save the Republic, not settle scores.


This system gives us the best chance of preserving our forces (and therefore money), winning two major conflicts.  Having the 5th place conservatives as dictator does not risk giving any side too much power.

Jason-Is my logic and facts okay here?  ie, we have 3 vet legions, 20 legions total, etc?  Also, we could negotiate over the number of vet legions.  Maybe give one to Macedonius to increase his odds, etc.

FYI-Odds calculator here: https://anydice.com/

works for me
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 17, 2019, 03:21:49 PM
Macedonicus voids Macedonian War D/S results. He doesn't halve losses. That's Fabius Maximus of the Populists (who doesn't void any D/S results, but his ability works against any losses of any war.)

Keep in mind Deployment order, make sure the Dictator goes out last.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on February 17, 2019, 04:41:28 PM
Quote from: Tripoli on February 17, 2019, 12:32:08 PM
How about this:
1) Lucius Aemilius Paullus Macedonicus (Conservatives) becomes Dictator.  Takes Manlius of the Militarists as MoH.  Prosecutes the evil Phillip V in the Macedonians with 12 regular legions and 10 fleets. Odd are: ((12 (Madedonian War Strength) + 6 (Phillip V))- (12 (Legions)-5 (Macedonicus)-(7 Manlius (Normally an 8, but limited by the # of legions))= +6 DRM=37% chance of 18 or more, and all losses are halved due to Macedonicus's special ability.

2) Julius (Militarists) and 9 legions including the 3 vets and the 2 naval v. Antioch and the Syrians.  Odds are ((6 (Syrian War) + 5(Antioch III))-((9 Legions)+3 (veteran legions)+9 (Julius))=+10 DRM=83% chance of victory with no losses.

3) Illyrian War, 1st Punic War are unprosecuted

4)Aelius of the Militarists as a counsel who remains in Rome.  I believe since he would be the HRAO, as the dictator Macedonicus is deployed.  If we get 4 wars, we don't lose automatically. 

5) No prosecutions of anyone.  We are trying to save the Republic, not settle scores.


This system gives us the best chance of preserving our forces (and therefore money), winning two major conflicts.  Having the 5th place conservatives as dictator does not risk giving any side too much power.

Jason-Is my logic and facts okay here?  ie, we have 3 vet legions, 20 legions total, etc?  Also, we could negotiate over the number of vet legions.  Maybe give one to Macedonius to increase his odds, etc.

FYI-Odds calculator here: https://anydice.com/

I'll sign on in exchange for either the censor post or the governorship of Gallia Cisalpina.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 17, 2019, 05:22:09 PM
Quote from: IncompetentIdiot on February 17, 2019, 04:41:28 PM


I'll sign on in exchange for either the censor post or the governorship of Gallia Cisalpina.
[/quote]

Are you proposing Valerius as governor?  I don't have any objections.  Does anyone else want to weigh in?
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 17, 2019, 07:06:44 PM
If you want to set up a sequence as a public contract, and get enough people to sign on for a majority vote on all points, I can process it automatically.

Of course, if someone jumps in with a Tribune veto while I'm doing that, it'll still abort the sequence.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 17, 2019, 10:40:10 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on February 17, 2019, 07:06:44 PM
If you want to set up a sequence as a public contract, and get enough people to sign on for a majority vote on all points, I can process it automatically.

Of course, if someone jumps in with a Tribune veto while I'm doing that, it'll still abort the sequence.

Here is a suggested public contract (still subject to negotiation), in order of execution:

1) Lucius Aemilius Paullus Macedonicus (Conservatives) becomes Dictator.
2) Macedonicus successfully names Manlius of the Militarists as MoH.
3)  Julius and Aelius are voted in as consuls

4) Julius and 9 legions including the 2-3 vets legions and the 2 naval v. Antioch and the Syrians. 
5) Macedonicus  and Manlius prosecute the Macedonians with 12 regular legions and 10 fleets. (can be modified by no more that addition of 1 veteran legion)
6) Illyrian War, 1st Punic War are unprosecuted

7)Aelius of the Militarists as a counsel who remains in Rome.  I believe since he would be the HRAO, as the dictator Macedonicus is deployed.  If we get 4 wars, we don't lose automatically.
8)  Valerius as governor of Galia Cisalpina   

9) Any faction that agrees and votes for these proposals (and doesn't use a tribune to otherwise interfere with them) would be immune from  prosecutions this turn. 

Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on February 18, 2019, 07:57:15 AM
Quote from: Tripoli on February 17, 2019, 10:40:10 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on February 17, 2019, 07:06:44 PM
If you want to set up a sequence as a public contract, and get enough people to sign on for a majority vote on all points, I can process it automatically.

Of course, if someone jumps in with a Tribune veto while I'm doing that, it'll still abort the sequence.

Here is a suggested public contract (still subject to negotiation), in order of execution:

1) Lucius Aemilius Paullus Macedonicus (Conservatives) becomes Dictator.
2) Macedonicus successfully names Manlius of the Militarists as MoH.
3)  Julius and Aelius are voted in as consuls

4) Julius and 9 legions including the 2-3 vets legions and the 2 naval v. Antioch and the Syrians. 
5) Macedonicus  and Manlius prosecute the Macedonians with 12 regular legions and 10 fleets. (can be modified by no more that addition of 1 veteran legion)
6) Illyrian War, 1st Punic War are unprosecuted

7)Aelius of the Militarists as a counsel who remains in Rome.  I believe since he would be the HRAO, as the dictator Macedonicus is deployed.  If we get 4 wars, we don't lose automatically.
8)  Valerius as governor of Galia Cisalpina   

9) Any faction that agrees and votes for these proposals (and doesn't use a tribune to otherwise interfere with them) would be immune from  prosecutions this turn.

I'm in favour.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on February 18, 2019, 08:23:31 AM
I disagree, I think we're ignoring the elephant  (reference intended) to fight the fleas. The Punic War could become a major problem if we let the next one spawn. I suggest we send the legions against the Syrians and all available fleets under Scipio (for the DS avoidance) against the Punic War.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 18, 2019, 08:53:27 AM
Quote from: Erax on February 18, 2019, 08:23:31 AM
I disagree, I think we're ignoring the elephant  (reference intended) to fight the fleas. The Punic War could become a major problem if we let the next one spawn. I suggest we send the legions against the Syrians and all available fleets under Scipio (for the DS avoidance) against the Punic War.

While I understand your concerns, the fact is that we have a (I believe 20% chance) of outright failure in the naval war against Carthage regardless of what we do.  Since naval victory is a prerequisite, we could fail, and still have the chance of 2nd Punic war, as well as have the Macedonian war.  I believe we can settle the Macedonian and Syrian wars now and get them off the table, and take the chance of activating the 2nd Punic war.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 18, 2019, 09:03:59 AM
Worth noting that the Macedonian War, like the Punic, will definitely spawn a second War before the end of the Era (or early in the Middle Era depending on how the final 12 cards shuffle out).

However, also worth noting that a second Punic War will double the strength of the 1st's Naval Battle, too!


In regard to proposed action order, the Consuls MUST be elected first -- this is not optional. After that, the Consuls between themselves decide on appointing the Dictator, who then takes over (again in this case) as Presiding Magistrate.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on February 18, 2019, 09:10:38 AM
If everyone agrees that we will attack the two land wars (with fleet support) then I have no objection to the plan; we could, however, raise the 2 missing legions.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 18, 2019, 09:30:39 AM
Y'all should also consider a Censor now, if you want the Contract to guarantee there will be no prosecutions.

Otherwise, that will have to be negotiated later when the Mandatory Censor Business comes up.

Note that any Censor can be re-elected as many times in a row as the Players are willing to vote for him! (It's only the Consuls who can't be re-elected immediately.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 18, 2019, 09:35:09 AM
Quote from: Erax on February 18, 2019, 09:10:38 AM
If everyone agrees that we will attack the two land wars (with fleet support) then I have no objection to the plan; we could, however, raise the 2 missing legions.

Y'all do have enough projected spare cash to do this, which will of course help increase the chances of removing at least one Active War and its 20 Talent cost per turn (as well as gaining its Spoils).

If things go badly, however, you may not have enough cash reserve to parry costly bad luck events. (Though on the other hand, this could be offset by senatorial donations during the Revenue Phase. And there's a decent chance the new Province will turn a small profit instead of costing the Republic a little cash, each turn!)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 18, 2019, 10:28:16 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on February 18, 2019, 09:03:59 AM
Worth noting that the Macedonian War, like the Punic, will definitely spawn a second War before the end of the Era (or early in the Middle Era depending on how the final 12 cards shuffle out).

However, also worth noting that a second Punic War will double the strength of the 1st's Naval Battle, too!



Does this mean the Carthaginian strength is doubled, or the Roman?  One of the resong I'm proposing that we don't prosecute 1st Punic War now is that we need the fleets for these other wars, which are winnable.  The 20% chance of a naval disaster would require us re-raising fleets to prosecute the Macedonian war, and our current budget situation is sufficiently tight that that may be difficult.  However, if Carthaginian naval strength doubles in 2nd Punic war, then I way reconsider my proposal.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on February 18, 2019, 11:24:53 AM
Quote from: Tripoli on February 18, 2019, 10:28:16 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on February 18, 2019, 09:03:59 AM
Worth noting that the Macedonian War, like the Punic, will definitely spawn a second War before the end of the Era (or early in the Middle Era depending on how the final 12 cards shuffle out).

However, also worth noting that a second Punic War will double the strength of the 1st's Naval Battle, too!



Does this mean the Carthaginian strength is doubled, or the Roman?  One of the resong I'm proposing that we don't prosecute 1st Punic War now is that we need the fleets for these other wars, which are winnable.  The 20% chance of a naval disaster would require us re-raising fleets to prosecute the Macedonian war, and our current budget situation is sufficiently tight that that may be difficult.  However, if Carthaginian naval strength doubles in 2nd Punic war, then I way reconsider my proposal.

That'd be Carthaginian.  It wouldn't make sense if Roman.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on February 18, 2019, 11:29:25 AM
My question for Jason is can we defeat the Carthaginian fleets separately from engaging their armies?

Does it all have to be done on the same turn?

And can we use different commanders for fleet and army?

Because if so then putting Fabius on the fleets would minimize losses there if things go sideways?
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 18, 2019, 01:05:12 PM
Quote from: malize on February 18, 2019, 11:29:25 AM
My question for Jason is can we defeat the Carthaginian fleets separately from engaging their armies?

Yes, and in fact it's safer to do that: you can bring your Legions along for a same-turn assault, if you want, but you risk losing the Legions to the Naval Battle, and you won't be able to land the Legions (much less Support them) until you win the Naval War first. So if you crap out on the Naval fight, you not only may lose Legions but you'll have the surviving Legions tied up on the water for the Turn.

Quote from: malize on February 18, 2019, 11:29:25 AMAnd can we use different commanders for fleet and army?

Because if so then putting Fabius on the fleets would minimize losses there if things go sideways?

Yes, FabbyMax's defensive ability works on Fleet casualties, too!

And yes, you can Deploy two different Forces on the same Turn, to fight the same War; and they'll take their shots at the War in Turn. Consequently, you can send one Commander out with the Navy, and Deploy another Commander to follow after him on the same Turn to fight the Land War.

The advantage to doing this is that you don't risk losing your Legions (especially your precious Veterans) as Fleet casualties. The downside, is that you tie up a second Commander along with those Legions, possibly doing nothing for the turn, if you don't get a Naval Victory -- or if you lack enough surviving Fleets to Support the Land fight.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 18, 2019, 01:13:14 PM
Quote from: malize on February 18, 2019, 11:24:53 AM
Quote from: Tripoli on February 18, 2019, 10:28:16 AM
Does this mean the Carthaginian strength is doubled, or the Roman?
That'd be Carthaginian.  It wouldn't make sense if Roman.

Correct: if the 2nd Punic War shows up, the Carthaginian Fleet strength for the 1st War will double. As will its Land Strength!

(The 2nd War will have its base strengths doubled, too, thanks to the 1st War, but it usually isn't possible to fight subsequent Wars while preceding Wars are undefeated. This can be a problem for Provincial defense, tho...)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on February 18, 2019, 05:16:09 PM
My idea is to send Scipio with the fleets vs. the Punic War because he voids the war's D/S results, then we send one commander vs. the Syrians. We wouldn't be able to take on the Macedonians because their fleet support requirement would drain our forces. We could go against JP's advice and send some forces vs. the Syrians and some vs. the Illyrians, risking not being able to take it out - but it's a weak war, and its mate could show up next turn and activate it anyway.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 18, 2019, 05:22:28 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on February 18, 2019, 01:13:14 PM
Quote from: malize on February 18, 2019, 11:24:53 AM
Quote from: Tripoli on February 18, 2019, 10:28:16 AM
Does this mean the Carthaginian strength is doubled, or the Roman?
That'd be Carthaginian.  It wouldn't make sense if Roman.

Correct: if the 2nd Punic War shows up, the Carthaginian Fleet strength for the 1st War will double. As will its Land Strength!

(The 2nd War will have its base strengths doubled, too, thanks to the 1st War, but it usually isn't possible to fight subsequent Wars while preceding Wars are undefeated. This can be a problem for Provincial defense, tho...)

SO, I need the Senator's to think about this. Here's the choices:

We can prosecute the 1st Punic War.  Doing so would prevent us from prosecuting the Macedonian War, (and may prevent prosecuting the Syrian War) due to the number of fleets needed.  IMHO, we would have to raise the maximum number of fleets we could, send them to war, and realized we have a 20% chance of a disaster.  Fabius might be able to minimize the fleet losses (loosing only 25% as opposed to 50%) but, as I understand it a natural roll of 8 or 12 is still a loss.  So, we still have a 20% chance (probably somewhat higher) of not winning the 1st Punic War, and still getting a 2nd Punic War, as well as having the Macedonian and possibly Syrian war outstanding.

Or, we can take our chances on not getting 2nd Punic war with its doubling, settle the Macedonian and Syrian wars this turn, and taking care of business with Carthage next turn.  This would have the additional benefits of freeing up more money from the treasury for winning the Macedonian and Syrian wars.

  I personally think doing the Macedonaian and Syrian wars is the safest route, although not without risk.  Thoughts?  I will propose whatever ya'll think, as this is potentially a game-ending decision we are making.  But I would like to have everyone's thoughts 
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 18, 2019, 05:23:35 PM
Quote from: Erax on February 18, 2019, 05:16:09 PM
My idea is to send Scipio with the fleets vs. the Punic War because he voids the war's D/S results, then we send one commander vs. the Syrians. We wouldn't be able to take on the Macedonians because their fleet support requirement would drain our forces. We could go against JP's advice and send some forces vs. the Syrians and some vs. the Illyrians, risking not being able to take it out - but it's a weak war, and its mate could show up next turn and activate it anyway.

One point-2 fleets have to also go against the Syrians
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on February 18, 2019, 05:41:13 PM
I've got nothing against Trips more conservative route, just want to make sure that in our efforts not to lose we avoid the chance of winning :)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on February 18, 2019, 07:59:57 PM
Attacking Carthage seems a bit of a risk because we'll still need another turn to defeat them on land, and if the second war is drawn before them that'll complicate the task substantially. If we do decide to do that, I think we should deploy Fabius with the fleet now and then Scipio in the future, since I'd prefer to have the better odds of success provided by his voiding of D/S results at the point when we know we can end the war. However, I still lean towards taking down two of the other wars.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 18, 2019, 09:19:05 PM
Coming up on 20 thousand view for this thread!

...I expect half of those are mine, but congratulations to all the Players anyway!   O0  :notworthy:
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 18, 2019, 09:28:56 PM
Meanwhile, Punic D/S results are 8, 11, 12, 13 and 14 (unless you send someone to nix the Punic D/S results, in which case Hamilcar's 8 and 12 remain).

Those aren't Defeats, exactly, but they sure aren't wins. ;)  If you send Fabius Maximus of the Populists, he'll have a 50.45% chance of a D/S result outright, even though he'll only take half losses (so 25% losses for a Disaster roll, and 12.5% losses for a Standoff roll, rounded up either way).

If you send Scipio Africanus (of the Aristocrats) as Commander, he only has a 21.29% chance of a D/S result. But he'll take all of any casualties.

Either of them have Mil 5, so their boost to the Fleets will be the same either way (including if you send either of them as Dictator with a Militarist MoShips of your choice.)

Those of you who are wondering whether Hamilcar = Hannibal, the answer is no: his step-bro can and will show up eventually, and they stack their bonuses and their D/S risks (unless there's overlap between them). I do not recall whether Hannibal is slated to show up in the Early Era, but I would conservatively advise planning to expect him!

There's a reason why between them they nearly wiped the Republic.


The good news, such as it is, is that if you manage to score a Naval Victory, you never have to worry about punching through their navy again. Including if a Matching War shows up: it could have its own navy to punch through later, but it won't share with the preceding War. (I will be surprised if the 2nd War has a Fleet Strength though; it's supposed to represent Hannibal invading overland, as historically. Then again, Hamilcar is supposed to be in Spain, so...!)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 18, 2019, 09:39:57 PM
Antiochus and the Syrians combine for 14,15,16 and 17 D/S, which amount to a 15.74% chance. But you have no one who can nix the main War's D/S chances. They only require 2 Fleets for Support, and are the weakest overall opponent with the most immediate spoils for winning.


Philip and the Macedonian Wars combine 11,12,14,15 and 18, which amount to 36.1% chance. But Paullus Macedonicus of the Conservatives can reduce that to only the 14 and 15, so 11.57% chance of a D/S. (This is the least chance of a D/S result you're facing.)

You don't have to Defeat a Navy first, but you'll have to commit 10 Fleets to Supply the attack. They'll be the hardest land battle, at 18 strength; even the Punics with Hamilcar will only be 13 strength! (The Syrians will be 11, which isn't much easier.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 18, 2019, 09:56:07 PM
Currently y'all have 11 Fleets. They can only pull 13 Fleets against you, and you can bring enough Mil skill between Scipio and one of the Militarists to double 13 or 14 Fleets.

22 (doubled 11) minus 13 = +9. That's enough to guarantee either a Victory (probably without casualties) or a very unlikely Stalemate with 1 or 0 casualties. If you bought one more Fleet, you'd have enough Mil to double that one, even with Manlius as the Master of Ships, and no chance of anything but Victory -- aside from a 21.29% chance at a Disaster or Standoff!

Moreover, if you loaded up their Navy assault with 12 regular Legions (which would leave 3 Vets and 3 Regulars over), then Scipio and his MoH would be able to hit the Punics immediately with the same chances of Victory, or of course the 21.29% of D/S. Your chances of passing one D/S would be 78.71%; your chances of passing both in sequence would be the square of that or about 62%.

This of course assumes you bring all Fleets for your Navy now, meaning neither of the other Wars can be fought. Or you can buy 3 Fleets, add 1 to the Punic War for a nothing-but-victory-or-D/S roll, and send the other 2 to supply a crushing Land Battle against Syria.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 18, 2019, 10:14:20 PM
In case you're wondering, no it is not normally possible to kill off an Enemy Leader during one of his Wars. He stays until Defeated, and then either shifts to the next Matching War if that's already active, or goes to the Curia to await the next War (where he has a random chance of about 1/3 of dying of natural causes meanwhile).

There are only two ways an Enemy Leader outright discards during a War. (1) all his Wars have been Defeated (e.g. all four Macedonian Wars for Philip); or (2) a Random Event allowing the HRAO at the end of the Senate Phase to assassinate one Enemy at War of his choice.

On the other hand, it's also possible for a Random Event to allow an Enemy to go into Refuge to help some other War! -- or worse, to Activate and help ALL CURRENT WARS!  :o Stacking with their own Leaders of course.  :hide:


...y'all had it easy during the Tutorial Eras.  >:D >:D >:D Now the game is getting serious about crushing the Republic.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 18, 2019, 10:23:29 PM
Quote from: IncompetentIdiot on February 18, 2019, 07:59:57 PM
Attacking Carthage seems a bit of a risk because we'll still need another turn to defeat them on land....

Not necessarily. If you send the Legions with the Fleets, under the same Commander, the Legions will immediately make a Land attack after a Naval Victory, under the same Commander -- if enough Fleets survive to secure the Supply lane.

Alternately, if you send the Legions after the Fleets, under a different Commander, they'll also make an immediate Land attack after a Naval Victory (if enough Supply Fleets survive).

The difference is that sailing immediately, they risk taking casualties with the Fleet, but they get the benefits of the Fleet Commander during the land battle. Sailing afterward, they'll need a second Commander for the ground assault, who therefore can't be put to use elsewhere this Turn, but they don't risk taking casualties at sea.

Either way, the Deployed Legions will not be usable somewhere else this Turn, of course.

So the Legions could possibly hit Carthage this Turn. If the Roman Navy Defeats the Carthage Navy (and still has 10 surviving Fleets).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on February 19, 2019, 07:51:42 AM
Quote from: IncompetentIdiot on February 18, 2019, 07:59:57 PM
Attacking Carthage seems a bit of a risk because we'll still need another turn to defeat them on land, and if the second war is drawn before them that'll complicate the task substantially. If we do decide to do that, I think we should deploy Fabius with the fleet now and then Scipio in the future, since I'd prefer to have the better odds of success provided by his voiding of D/S results at the point when we know we can end the war. However, I still lean towards taking down two of the other wars.

If we don't use Scipio, all those stacked D/S results mean we have a 50/50 chance no matter how many fleets we send, that's why I want him for the naval battle (and next turn for the land battle, if we have the chance). Sending fleets and legions seems like too much of a risk to me however, because we'll be leaving 2 wars behind us, so we should take the legions (that we won't be using) and send them vs. the Syrians. Who by the way can give us some good spoils to help with the Republic's finances.

We have 11 fleets, we need to send 2 to support the Syrian force. We could raise 4 and still keep a gold reserve in case we get any bad events later. We could send Scipio as Dictator + Manlius as MoH + 13 fleets vs. the Punic War and that would give us a +13 modifier. We'll need the extra fleets anyway to support the Macedonian force + any new wars (which there will be, the Early Republic has to face many of them) next turn.

Note that whoever defeats the Syrians gets the Spolia Opima.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 19, 2019, 08:44:49 AM
Just so I'm clear on the forces available.  Right now we have 11 Fleets, and 18 legions, 3 of which are veteran.  Is this correct?
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 19, 2019, 09:26:44 AM
Quote from: Tripoli on February 19, 2019, 08:44:49 AM
Just so I'm clear on the forces available.  Right now we have 11 Fleets, and 18 legions, 3 of which are veteran.  Is this correct?

Ah, whoops, I totally forgot to report this (going back to check) in the pre-Senate information.  :-[

And I'm not where I can directly verify at the moment. But when I wrote my post(s) last night, I was looking directly at the Active Pool for a while, and occasionally even hand-counting the chits just to be sure.

So I know those figures are correct in the Active Pool: 11 Fleets, and 15 regular Legions plus 3 Vets (18 Legions total). Currently no forces are assigned to any Wars, so what's in the Active Pool is what you've got.

You've also recently unlocked the final core logistic maximum of 25/25, so there are 25-11=14 more potential Fleets to be Raised from the Force Pool; and 25-18=7 more potential Legions.

(Any further combat strength will come from Provinces, and will mostly be tied to the Provinces, unless Governors rebel. Provincial Forces can't go to War against anyone else except Wars attacking them, and against Rome in rebellion.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on February 19, 2019, 09:51:02 AM
At this point I'll publicly allocate my votes to whatever consular/censor/dictator combo legion/fleet raising, deployments and commands that Tripoli puts forth
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on February 19, 2019, 12:14:10 PM
One observation regarding legions: we should send one regular legion to the new province if possible. It will allow provincial forces to fight at full strength.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 19, 2019, 12:51:16 PM
So far, I haven't heard from anyone other suggestions on how to handle this turn, so I'll go ahead and move forward with my various proposals for votes this evening.  If anyone has any good ideas between now atd 6 PM CST tonight, let me know. Otherwise I will be putting my plan up to a vote.  One thing I haven't gotten any input on is who gets to be Censor.  If someone wants it, I'll be happy to discuss, with the public agreement that there will be no prosecutions this turn of any faction, as long as they don't actively prevent or interfere with the prosecutions of the war in accordance with the majority in the Senaate by the playing of a Tribune card. In other words, if the Senate votes one way, and someone plays a Tribune card to prevent the Senate vote from going into effect, then they can be prosecuted.  Otherwise, no prosecutions this turn.

So, give me nominations for the Censor NLT 6 pm tonight. Otherwise, I'll make the decision.  I'll have the proposal for voting on the various wars done by then also.   
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on February 19, 2019, 01:30:18 PM
I nominate Flaminius of the progressives as censor
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 19, 2019, 03:17:36 PM
Quote from: Erax on February 19, 2019, 12:14:10 PM
One observation regarding legions: we should send one regular legion to the new province if possible. It will allow provincial forces to fight at full strength.

As far as I understand the rules, the basic land strength of the Province will fight at full strength regardless (equivalent to 1 Legion in this case), and any raised militia are going to fight at half strength regardless. The Garrison gives the Commander proper Legions he can multiply strength on with his Mil Skill (which he can't do to base strength or militia), and Vet up (with loyalty effects and house-rule defensive bonuses compared to regulars); but as far as I know, the presence of any Legion(s) will not affect combat capability of the milita or the inherent base strength.

More to the point, until a Province is attacked, a Garrison is totally useless. Cisalpine Gaul isn't threatened by any of the Wars on the board, only by a low-chance random event Barbarian raid.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on February 19, 2019, 04:29:08 PM
Check 2.02.32, provincial armies count in full if a garrison legion is present.

On another point, Flaminius cannot be Censor, he lost Prior Consul status when his predecessor died.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 19, 2019, 07:13:55 PM
Quote from: Erax on February 19, 2019, 04:29:08 PM
Check 2.02.32, provincial armies count in full if a garrison legion is present.

On another point, Flaminius cannot be Censor, he lost Prior Consul status when his predecessor died.

Ah! Both true! -- I'll fix the Sabrerule flowchart in regard to the provincial militia accordingly.

Still no point in putting a Legion there, especially in a crisis, unless the Province is at real and significant risk.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 19, 2019, 07:23:41 PM
Here's what I propose:
1) Cato the Elder (Populist) as Censor with the public agreement that there will be no prosecutions this turn of anyone, Unless they play a Tribune card to to thwart the majority of the Senate in any issue this turn.
2) Julius and Aelius (militarist) as consuls
3)Valerius (Aristocrates) as governor of Galia Cisalpina
4) We raise 3 legions, and 1 fleet, giving us a total of 21 legions and 12 fleets, and 14 talents in the treasury as a reserve (as a note, we will probably be passing around the hat and relying on the generosity of the senators next turn to fund the purchases we will need to prosecute the next batch of wars.


I propose we publicly vote on the first proposals initially, and get that round of business taken care of.  I will state publicly that assuming these are passed, I will be proposing Lucius Aemilius Paullus Macedonicus (Conservatives) to become Dictator.  Although I can't direct anything past this point, I understand that he will be nominating Manlius as the MoH and going off to prosecute the Macedonians with a force, while Julius takes the remaining force against the Syrians.


Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on February 19, 2019, 07:47:52 PM
Quote from: Tripoli on February 19, 2019, 07:23:41 PM
Here's what I propose:
1) Cato the Elder (Populist) as Censor with the public agreement that there will be no prosecutions this turn of anyone, Unless they play a Tribune card to to thwart the majority of the Senate in any issue this turn.
2) Julius and Aelius (militarist) as consuls
3)Valerius (Aristocrates) as governor of Galia Cisalpina
4) We raise 3 legions, and 1 fleet, giving us a total of 21 legions and 12 fleets, and 14 talents in the treasury as a reserve (as a note, we will probably be passing around the hat and relying on the generosity of the senators next turn to fund the purchases we will need to prosecute the next batch of wars.


I propose we publicly vote on the first proposals initially, and get that round of business taken care of.  I will state publicly that assuming these are passed, I will be proposing Lucius Aemilius Paullus Macedonicus (Conservatives) to become Dictator.  Although I can't direct anything past this point, I understand that he will be nominating Manlius as the MoH and going off to prosecute the Macedonians with a force, while Julius takes the remaining force against the Syrians.

I'll support that.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on February 19, 2019, 10:13:45 PM
As indicated earlier, the populist faction is all for saving the republic and will vote for.

Also, forgot the previous consul requirement (shouldn't after all that EU:Rome I used to play...)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on February 20, 2019, 06:53:01 AM
Agreed.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 20, 2019, 09:44:48 AM
Y'all definitely have a majority voting bloc, then (at 80 votes -- the other Players could only muster 33 against, if they even wanted to oppose it, and I can't imagine why AzTank would be opposed to Paullus being Dictator.)

At the risk of sounding like a Fortran compiler, though, there is still one invalidity.  :hide:

The Dictator Julius cannot be Proposed as one of the new Consuls. (He can be re-appointed as Dictator immediately by the new Consuls; and he can be a Consul later after spending a Turn not being Dictator or Consul. But he cannot be Dictator and then immediately Consul the next Turn.)

If the primary goal is to send Paullus Macedonicus and a main Militarist MoH against the Macedonians, with a secondary goal of hitting the Syrians with one of the other main Militarists, then let me make some adjustments (checked by Erax and other Players familiar with the rules). My intention is to keep the details as equal as possible while still being valid and still providing the main goal of the Contract.


!!! THE TURN ELEVEN SYRIO-MACEDONIAN PROSECUTION CONTRACT !!!

Item 0: All Players joining this public Contract shall agree to vote for its Proposals.

Item 1: The Dictator Julius shall Propose the Militarists Aelius and Manlius as Consuls.

Item 2: Once voted in, Manlius shall agree to be Field Consul, with Aelius as Roman Consul.

Item 3: The Consuls shall agree to appoint Paullus Macedonicus of the Conservatives as Dictator.

Item 4: Dictator Paullus shall appoint Julius of the Militarists as his Master of Horse.

Item 5: Dictator Paullus shall Propose Cato the Elder of the Populists, as Censor.

Item 6: Censor Cato shall agree that the only valid targets of Corruption Investigation this Turn, at his discretion otherwise, will be senators who vote against or veto some item of the Contract to this point.

(Sidenote: a veto is impossible so far anyway, all Proposals per se being made by a Dictator.)

Item 7: Dictator Paullus shall Propose Valerius of the Aristocrats as Governor of Gallia Cisalpina.

Item 8: Dictator Paullus shall batch Propose Raising 3 Legions and 1 Fleet to Active.

Item 9: Dictator Paullus shall Propose to Deploy Consul Manlius with a Force of Legions (and sufficient Supply Fleets) against the Syrian War.

Item 10: Dictator Paullus shall Propose to Deploy himself and his MoH Julius with a Force of Legions (and sufficient Supply Fleets) against the Macedonian War.

(Sidenote: the terms so far allow leeway in the number and constituency of Legions to be Deployed, per any further discussions and recommendations.)

With his departure from Rome, Paullus shall close the Senate (and its Phase).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on February 20, 2019, 10:24:33 AM
Agreed
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on February 20, 2019, 10:58:50 AM
Quote from: IncompetentIdiot on February 19, 2019, 07:47:52 PM
Quote from: Tripoli on February 19, 2019, 07:23:41 PM
Here's what I propose:
1) Cato the Elder (Populist) as Censor with the public agreement that there will be no prosecutions this turn of anyone, Unless they play a Tribune card to to thwart the majority of the Senate in any issue this turn.
2) Julius and Aelius (militarist) as consuls
3)Valerius (Aristocrates) as governor of Galia Cisalpina
4) We raise 3 legions, and 1 fleet, giving us a total of 21 legions and 12 fleets, and 14 talents in the treasury as a reserve (as a note, we will probably be passing around the hat and relying on the generosity of the senators next turn to fund the purchases we will need to prosecute the next batch of wars.


I propose we publicly vote on the first proposals initially, and get that round of business taken care of.  I will state publicly that assuming these are passed, I will be proposing Lucius Aemilius Paullus Macedonicus (Conservatives) to become Dictator.  Although I can't direct anything past this point, I understand that he will be nominating Manlius as the MoH and going off to prosecute the Macedonians with a force, while Julius takes the remaining force against the Syrians.

I'll support that.

Conservatives agree
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 20, 2019, 05:50:46 PM
The Infothread post with attached Sabrerule flowcharts has been updated to the newest versions (both doc and pdf).

If anyone discovers that the Living Rules have also been updated, let me know! -- right now I'm still using April 2018. (And maybe for this game we shouldn't change horses halfway across the river. I'm house-ruling various things anyway that are crazy or unclear in the current rules.)

Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 20, 2019, 07:10:52 PM
Yep, that looks good. 
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 20, 2019, 07:15:24 PM
Okay, since a (super-)majority of Players agrees with the Contract in its initial form, and since my revised-to-be-legally-valid version includes practically all points except switching out Julius for Manlius, I'll start processing the Contract.

Processing the Contract:

Militarists Aelius and Manlius are voted in as Consuls per the Dictator Julius' Proposal and Contractual agreements. Aelius goes up 5 Inf from 21 to 26. Manlius goes up 5 Inf from 18 to 23. Total Militarist Influence up 10 to 72. Note that now the Aristocrats aren't the most Influential Faction, and so they won't have 10 extra activist knight votes subsequently! Fortunately, the super-majority won't matter (with AzTank's agreement to the contract).

Tripoli, being in control of both Consuls, declares Aelius to be Roman and Manlius to be Field Consul.

Tripoli thus also declares, by his unified Consular agreement, to appoint Paullus Macedonicus of the Conservatives as Dictator. His Inf goes up 7, from 4 to 11. Total Influence up from 20 to 27.

Paullus takes over Presiding Magistrate duties as HRAO, and as Dictator he appoints Julius of the Militarists as his Master of Horse. Julius' Influence goes up 3 from 23 to 26. Total Inf from 72 to 75.

Per Dictator Paullus' Proposal, and by Contractual agreement, the Populist Cato the Elder is voted as Censor. His Influence goes up 5, from 5 to 10. Total Influence up from 24 to 29.

Per Contracted agreement, Cato can only Investigate the Corruption of any Player's senators who voted against the Contracted Proposals (or who tried to veto them, but all Proposals so far came from a Dictator so could not be vetoed anyway.) Since there was a Contracted majority, and no advantage to voting against (except for Erax, but he Contracted to vote For all Proposals), I shall presume no one tried voting against the Proposals. Cato declines Prosecutions, and passes PM duties back to Paullus. All Suspicions of Corruption delete until next Turn.

Before Paullus continues, per private instructions to me, Erax has Plautius the Pontifex Maximus re-assign the priesthood of Cornelius Scipio Africanus, of the Aristocrats, to Flaminius of the Progressives. Scipio's Influence goes down 1 point to 23; total down to 66. Flam's influence goes up 1 point to 4; total up to 21.

Erax also at this point, per private instructions, plays a Faction Intrigue card from his hand: Influence Peddling!

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/484/Sg9zUH.jpg)

Erax selects the Plutocrat Frog, not too surprisingly (since he has four Faction cards). I have alerted both of them what he randomly drew. As with all Faction card transfers between Players, Erax will not receive this card until the Revolution Phase, but I've put it in his Delayed Transfer until then.

The Contract proceeds. For the final Mandatory Business, Valerius of the Aristocrats is elected, by Paullus' Proposal and by Contractual voting, to be the Republic's first Provincial Governor! -- namely of Gallia Cisalpina. He immediately leaves Rome (the card is put on his card): normal Aristocrat Vote tally goes down 6, from 19 to 13. The term number is set to 3.

Starting Other Business, by Paullus' Batch Proposal, and by Contractual voting, 3 Legions (the 3rd, 8th, and 21st) are Raised from the Force Pool to Active Forces, along with 1 Fleet (the 9th). This costs the Republic 4x10 cash, down from 72 to 32.

At this point I have to pause the processing of the Contract, because I'm not entirely sure how many of which Legions are supposed to be Deployed where and with whom.

The Deployments must be, by Contract, and in this order, Field Consul Manlius and 2 Support Fleets against the Syrian War; and then the Dictator Paullus plus MoH Julius plus 12 Support Fleets against the Macedonian War.

AzTank (perhaps with advice from others based on prior discussions) must declare the Legion dispositions for those Deployments now. There are currently 21 Active Legions, 3 of them Veterans.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 20, 2019, 10:18:56 PM
I didn't feel that I could (or should) tell the dictator how to deploy the forces.  I earlier made a proposed force deployment.   For reference it was:

1) Lucius Aemilius Paullus Macedonicus (Conservatives) becomes Dictator.  Takes Manlius of the Militarists as MoH.  Prosecutes the evil Phillip V in the Macedonians with 12 regular legions and 10 fleets. Odd are: ((12 (Madedonian War Strength) + 6 (Phillip V))- (12 (Legions)-5 (Macedonicus)-(7 Manlius (Normally an 8, but limited by the # of legions))= +6 DRM=37% chance of 18 or more, and all losses are halved due to Macedonicus's special ability.

2) Julius (Militarists) and 9 legions including the 3 vets and the 2 naval v. Antioch and the Syrians.  Odds are ((6 (Syrian War) + 5(Antioch III))-((9 Legions)+3 (veteran legions)+9 (Julius))=+10 DRM=83% chance of victory with no losses.


However, we purchased one more legion than that proposed force deployment had, so we could improve the odds of the (I believe Macedonian war) by sending the extra legion there.  ALternatively, we could take one of the Syrian Vet legions, send it to Macedonicus, and send the extra legion to Julius.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on February 20, 2019, 11:15:19 PM
Quote from: Tripoli on February 20, 2019, 10:18:56 PM
I didn't feel that I could (or should) tell the dictator how to deploy the forces.  I earlier made a proposed force deployment.   For reference it was:

1) Lucius Aemilius Paullus Macedonicus (Conservatives) becomes Dictator.  Takes Manlius of the Militarists as MoH.  Prosecutes the evil Phillip V in the Macedonians with 12 regular legions and 10 fleets. Odd are: ((12 (Madedonian War Strength) + 6 (Phillip V))- (12 (Legions)-5 (Macedonicus)-(7 Manlius (Normally an 8, but limited by the # of legions))= +6 DRM=37% chance of 18 or more, and all losses are halved due to Macedonicus's special ability.

2) Julius (Militarists) and 9 legions including the 3 vets and the 2 naval v. Antioch and the Syrians.  Odds are ((6 (Syrian War) + 5(Antioch III))-((9 Legions)+3 (veteran legions)+9 (Julius))=+10 DRM=83% chance of victory with no losses.


However, we purchased one more legion than that proposed force deployment had, so we could improve the odds of the (I believe Macedonian war) by sending the extra legion there.  ALternatively, we could take one of the Syrian Vet legions, send it to Macedonicus, and send the extra legion to Julius.

so let it be written, so let it be done...sorry wrong movie.  Yes, and yes to the extra legion to Macedonia
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 20, 2019, 11:39:02 PM
I must point out again that Julius could not be a Consul this Turn, having been a Dictator last Turn (although he could have been Dictator again, had the Consuls chose to appoint him).

Consequently, it's Manlius who's going up against the Syrians as Field Consul. Julius is the one who, as Master of Horse, is helping Paullus Macdonicus with the 1st Macedonian War.

This was the only alteration I made to the proposed Contract, since it could be done for a basically equivalent result in the main goal, and avoids the invalidity of Julius being Consul after being Dictator.


(Later in the game Players will have the option, depending on a few semi-random circumstances, of getting rid of that rule, thus allowing Dictators to be Consuls immediately after their Dictatorship; also allowing Consuls to be immediately re-elected. But we aren't there yet.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 21, 2019, 09:52:58 AM
Quote from: ArizonaTank on February 20, 2019, 11:15:19 PM
Quote from: Tripoli on February 20, 2019, 10:18:56 PM
I didn't feel that I could (or should) tell the dictator how to deploy the forces.  I earlier made a proposed force deployment.   For reference it was:

1) Lucius Aemilius Paullus Macedonicus (Conservatives) becomes Dictator.  Takes Manlius of the Militarists as MoH.  Prosecutes the evil Phillip V in the Macedonians with 12 regular legions and 10 fleets. Odd are: ((12 (Madedonian War Strength) + 6 (Phillip V))- (12 (Legions)-5 (Macedonicus)-(7 Manlius (Normally an 8, but limited by the # of legions))= +6 DRM=37% chance of 18 or more, and all losses are halved due to Macedonicus's special ability.

2) Julius (Militarists) and 9 legions including the 3 vets and the 2 naval v. Antioch and the Syrians.  Odds are ((6 (Syrian War) + 5(Antioch III))-((9 Legions)+3 (veteran legions)+9 (Julius))=+10 DRM=83% chance of victory with no losses.


However, we purchased one more legion than that proposed force deployment had, so we could improve the odds of the (I believe Macedonian war) by sending the extra legion there.  ALternatively, we could take one of the Syrian Vet legions, send it to Macedonicus, and send the extra legion to Julius.

so let it be written, so let it be done...sorry wrong movie.  Yes, and yes to the extra legion to Macedonia

Becasue of the rule that Julius must be the MoH (See Jason's post above) you may want to send the spare legion to help in Syria, as the odds there changed.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 21, 2019, 12:16:01 PM
I'm holding off processing specifically for any adjustments due to needing to flip Julius' and Manlius' assignments.  O:-)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on February 21, 2019, 02:02:46 PM
Quote from: Tripoli on February 21, 2019, 09:52:58 AM
Quote from: ArizonaTank on February 20, 2019, 11:15:19 PM
Quote from: Tripoli on February 20, 2019, 10:18:56 PM
I didn't feel that I could (or should) tell the dictator how to deploy the forces.  I earlier made a proposed force deployment.   For reference it was:

1) Lucius Aemilius Paullus Macedonicus (Conservatives) becomes Dictator.  Takes Manlius of the Militarists as MoH.  Prosecutes the evil Phillip V in the Macedonians with 12 regular legions and 10 fleets. Odd are: ((12 (Madedonian War Strength) + 6 (Phillip V))- (12 (Legions)-5 (Macedonicus)-(7 Manlius (Normally an 8, but limited by the # of legions))= +6 DRM=37% chance of 18 or more, and all losses are halved due to Macedonicus's special ability.

2) Julius (Militarists) and 9 legions including the 3 vets and the 2 naval v. Antioch and the Syrians.  Odds are ((6 (Syrian War) + 5(Antioch III))-((9 Legions)+3 (veteran legions)+9 (Julius))=+10 DRM=83% chance of victory with no losses.


However, we purchased one more legion than that proposed force deployment had, so we could improve the odds of the (I believe Macedonian war) by sending the extra legion there.  ALternatively, we could take one of the Syrian Vet legions, send it to Macedonicus, and send the extra legion to Julius.

so let it be written, so let it be done...sorry wrong movie.  Yes, and yes to the extra legion to Macedonia

Becasue of the rule that Julius must be the MoH (See Jason's post above) you may want to send the spare legion to help in Syria, as the odds there changed.

concur
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 21, 2019, 06:42:15 PM
In accordance with various advice and prior plans, modified for the switch between Manlius and Julius, Paullus Proposes Deploying Field Marshal Manlius to the Syrian War with the 3 Vets, 7 regular Legions, and 2 Support Fleets. After Contracted agreements, Manlius leaves Rome Commanding his Force. Normal vote tally goes down 7 votes to 12; but this won't affect the Contracted vote success for the last Proposal.

Lastly, Dictator Paullus Proposes (with Contracted voting approval) to Deploy himself and his MoH Julius to fight the 1st Macedonian War, bringing 11 regular Legions and 10 Fleets for logistic Support. (These are all the remaining Legions; there were 21 - 3 Vets and -7 regulars to the Syrian War = 11 remaining.)

With this Force's Deployment, the Militarist votes go down 8 to 4; and the Conservative normal vote tally goes down 5 to 10.

Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 21, 2019, 09:49:55 PM
Since these fights are crucial to how much chance the Republic has of surviving through the next Turn, I've decided to set up a side-thread over at Armchair Dragoon to track the fights (and future critical rolls).

The thread can be found here: https://www.armchairdragoons.com/forum/index.php?topic=627.0

Once I'm done, I'll link back here for ease of transition to the main thread.

Due to some technical problem, I'm unable to post the results of the first battle, but I've introduced the situation to anyone unfamiliar with our game, explaining the context, and I've rolled it. You can tell from the results that Manlius won. Hopefully the problem (maybe server load, this being 8:50 pm CST) will be resolved soon. I've got my notes ready for a copy-paste at any time.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 21, 2019, 11:18:21 PM
Okay, results for Manlius' fight are up, as are the prep and roll for the Macedonian War.

It's late here so I'll post the details of that fight tomorrow afternoon, but I've noted the basic result to avoid needless suspense on that.  O:-)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on February 22, 2019, 07:24:40 AM
While you listed the number of legions as 10 rather than 11, you used 11 in the DRM calculation, so +4 is correct. The final result is 15, not 16 (still a victory).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 22, 2019, 08:18:50 AM
Man, the way my neurons zig and zag on that topic is just beyond my understanding...  :-[  I can't even imagine how I could have written 10 instead of 11, and then also used 11 instead of 10 in my subsequent calcs! Seems more likely I didn't use a calculator going down the list and was just fortuitously off by one in the right direction.  :buck2:

Thanks for double-checking!  O:-) 15 is going to mean 3 Legions lost (and three chances for one or both of the senators to die).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 22, 2019, 09:25:22 PM
The detailed results for the 1st Macedonian War are now up at the Dragoons, and the game returns back here until the next crucial rolls / draws which might win or lose the game.

(I would link to the particular post, but I can't figure out how there...  ??? You can follow the thread link a few posts above, and scroll down to the newest post.)

This ends the Turn 11 Combat Phase.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 22, 2019, 09:39:24 PM
TURN 11 -- REVOLUTION PHASE
---------------------------

Erax's new Faction card, won from the Frog by playing an Influence Peddling Intrigue earlier this Turn, now arrives (facedown) on the Progressive mat. Erax and the Frog both know what it is.

If any Players wish to donate or trade Faction cards, they may arrive immediately now without delay. (I'll allow some asynch lag as usual.)

No one has more than 5 cards, to discard down to.

Also, no one has any valid Concessions or Statesmen to play yet.

AzTank and Tripoli must let me know whether they intend to Rebel against the Republic with their Victorious Commanders, before I can continue. (They can ask me about details privately, but any testing of the waters by polling the Legions must be done publicly.)

They must also declare whether to Retire the 3rd (Manlius) and/or 10th (Paullus) Veteran Legions, for +1 Ora and Inf each. If they attempt to Rebel, this must be done first.

Strictly speaking, Aristocrat Governor Valerius can also declare Rebellion at this time, but I'm assuming he won't so I'll move along unless I.I. insists on doing so, in which case I'll retcon things back to this Phase.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 22, 2019, 09:44:24 PM
I'm on the road right now so i may be slow in responding. I will publicly state the militarists will be handing all of their legions back to the republic and returning to our farms until next turn. I think the veteran legion might come in handy next turn especially since we will need to spend a fair amount raising a fleet, so unless the senate wants me to disband it I think for reasons of military necessity it should not be disbanded. If the factions disagree with my analysis I will disband the legion.
Before we return to our fields, I leave the Senate with one thought: Carthage must die
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 22, 2019, 10:02:52 PM
Heh, reference to Cato's habit of ending literally every speech, regardless of the topic, with "And in conclusion, Carthage must be destroyed."

The Legions return to the Active Pool (and the 2 Support Fleets already there), to await further action.

Manlius returns to Rome, adding his votes back in, up to 19.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 22, 2019, 10:06:34 PM
In order to move things along for weekend perusals, I'll provisionally continue on into the new Turn 12.

Note that if AzTank declares rebellion, I'll retcon back to Turn 11, but any chits drawn from the Death Bag will still apply when I return to this phase!


TURN 12 -- MORTALITY PHASE
--------------------------

There are no Immanent Wars to Activate. The Inactive Illyrian War stays making preparations offstage.

The Death Bag is randomly shuffled, and damn if the Conservatives continue jockeying with the Progressives for bad luck! At least it's only Family 11, Papirius, not his Statesman (who isn't prepared to pass on inheritance yet via that Conservative special ability). Alas, having lost a relative in the recent Macedonian War, perhaps he dies of grief. All chips are deleted (no unique ones to move around), and his family card goes to the Curia stack to await random respawn.

This leads me by coincidence to note that there are at least some times when total Influence in Rome is an important factor: if at any time there are less than 8 senators in Rome, the Player with the fewest senators automatically draws the first waiting family from the Curia -- with ties for fewest senators broken by least Influence in Rome.

This suggests I need to recheck the rules, if possible, over whether senators outside Rome still contribute their Influence to the Faction total. Certainly that wouldn't be true for Captive senators for example! -- but does it apply to all absent senators...?

Anyway, Conservative normal Vote tally goes down to 11 (assuming Paullus doesn't rebel), and total Influence goes to 27 (ditto).

This ends the Mortality Phase.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 22, 2019, 10:14:45 PM
Since another senator, Manlius, is getting close (at 31 Influence) to the silly original game rule of automatically being appointed Consul for life at reaching 35 Influence, irrespective of other considerations, I'm going to institute the house rule discussed previously, with Erax's adjustment.

Edited to add, because I forgot to specify what that was: to be automatically appointed Consul for Life, a senator must be 20+ points of Influence in the lead, and his Faction's total must be +35 in the lead.

I'll also allow the Presiding Magistrate or a Tribune during Other Business on any Turn, to make a Proposal for automatic appointment rules, to be voted on by the Players.  >:D No vetos allowed for this Proposal.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 22, 2019, 11:41:53 PM
TURN TWELVE -- REVENUE PHASE
----------------------------

Segment 1, Faction incomes! -- and mat update snapshots.

I.I.'s Aristocrat's: 0 starting cash; +17+5+5 personal cash; +3+1+1 normal income; +3+4+3 knight income; +2+2 Tax Farming; +3 Harbor Fees
= new Faction Total 49 Talents.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/9615/85T2Cx.jpg)
I haven't forgotten the new Province, but that will be dealt with soon.

Note that Cornelius Scipio is no longer a priest, this being re-assigned last Senate by PontMax Plautius to his fellow Progressive Flaminius.



Tripoli's Militarists: 0 starting cash; +5 personal cash; +3+1+1 senators income; +5+5 knights income; +2+2 Tax Farming
= new Faction total 24 Talents.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/9484/LY8RzI.jpg)



The Frog's Plutocrats: 0 starting cash; +3 personal cash; +5+1+1 senators income (Plutocrat ability); (+1+3+2)x2 knights income (Plutocrat ability); +1 priest
= new Faction Total 23 Talents.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/8233/wu1Cs9.jpg)



AzTank's Conservatives (assuming Paullus doesn't rebel): 50 starting cash; +5+5 personal cash; +3+1+1 senators income; +1+2 knights income; +1 priest
= new Faction total 69 Talents!
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/3040/xefrY8.jpg)


Malize's Populists: 8 starting cash; +0 personal cash; +3+1+1+1 senators income; +1+1+1+2 knights income; +3 Mining Concession
= 2 Faction total 22 Talents.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/8428/XxTiPY.jpg)


Erax's Progressives: 0 starting cash; +16 personal cash; +3+1 senators income; +1 knights income; +2+2 Tax Farming; +6 1d6 PontMax income; +1 priest income
= new Faction total 32 Talents.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/5086/riU0zf.jpg)

Provisionally, the Republic treasury has 101 Talents, +100 normal income, -20 for one Active War (the 1st Punic), -58 for Active units = 123 provisional total, not yet counting Donations or Provincial income.

Players must now send me cash distribution instructions, including any Donations to the Republic. (You may also pre-plan Forum Phase activities.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 22, 2019, 11:46:55 PM
I.I., as a Governing Player (and other Governing Players onward through the game), now unlocks some extra choices during this Phase!

First we roll to see if Valerius' Province, Gallia Cisalpina, Developed this Turn. 1d6, plus any rare bonuses (which don't apply this time, although a senator not under Suspicion commonly adds +1 -- Val has lots of Minor Suspicion from his Concessions!) >=6 Develops the Province... and in fact he rolled a 6!! Right off the bat! This earns Val 3 more Influence points, up from 19 to 22 (total Faction up to 69).

I.I., as a Governing Player, will collect 20 Talents from (a Developed) Gallia Cisalpina in local upkeep taxes, and must choose whether Valerius will donate any distributed personal cash to helping raise militia. (This donation is separate from Donating to the Republic's Treasury, and does not increase a senator's stats.)

Militia Legions cost 10 Talents, like regular Legions, but no upkeep once Raised. You will automatically spend all 20 of your local taxes on raising 2 Militia (up to 2 out of a Developed Logistic maximum of 10 for this Province); any local donations you add, will add to the raised militia. Excess local taxes cannot be kept.

Militia Legions will always be loyal to their Governor, but will not normally leave their Province except when following their Governor in Rebellion. They normally fight at half-strength, but at full strength if joined in the fight by at least one normal Legion. As noted, militia Legions never cost upkeep, and as long as the logistic maximum for a Province is reached then local taxes will no longer be collected. Militia cannot gain Veterancy. Nor are they the same as Garrisons, which are regular or Veteran Legions voted by the Senate to Deploy to the Province under Command of the Governor.

Militia are also not the same as the inherent Base Strength of a Province, which never takes casualties. Cisalpine Gaul currently has a (Developed) Base Strength of 2, equivalent to 2 Legions. Base Strength force cannot join a Governor in marching against Rome but will defend loyal to the Governor if attacked by a Republican Force.

I.I. must also now choose whether Valerius will attempt to squeeze Provincial Spoils! (Normally this would happen before rolling for Development, but I'm simplifying things for Asynch.) Developed Cisalpine Gaul can provide 1d6 + 3 Talents. Each Spoil attempt adds its own Minor Corruption marker to the Province, which can be Investigated during the Senate Phase, and to properly affect things for asynch purposes these Corruptions cannot be removed except by Investigation or by NOT Spoiling the Province next time.

In I.I.'s case he might as well, since he's going to have two automatic Minor Suspicions anyway from his Concessions, which would affect his chance of Developing the Province anyway (if he hadn't already Developed it). There's no downside for him in this case, nor for the Province (anymore), so I'll go ahead and roll for it... 5! +3 is 8, so that's added to Val's personal cash! (I.I. can distribute this as he wishes.)

Gallia Cisalpina will stay Developed until and unless it gets rolled over by a War or by a Barbarian Migration.

It will also (probably) generate income for Rome's Treasury, but that happens soon not now.

(I won't go over all this every time, but now seemed the best time to discuss these Provincial rules.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on February 23, 2019, 03:05:02 AM
26 to Plautius, 5 to Flaminius (who will spend it on a Knight), 1 in Faction Treasury.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 23, 2019, 07:00:07 AM
Julius and Manlius have a nine popularity?  That's the Roman equivalent of this:

https://youtu.be/It3Cctk6BRs?t=1


As far as distributions: 5 to Manlius for a knight. 11 to Aelius for a donation to the treasury for an additional 2 influence.  8 to Faction cash
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 23, 2019, 11:34:07 AM
Winning lots of wars will do that for you!
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 23, 2019, 11:35:04 AM
Oh, also: I.I. should tell me where he wants his extra Influence point distributed (since Valerius earned some Influence by randomly flipping his new Province to Developed!)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on February 23, 2019, 01:56:13 PM
5 (and extra influence) to Quinctius, 40 to Scipio.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on February 23, 2019, 06:44:09 PM
It would be nice if you posted the province cards before revenue from now on. I know we can see it in the Aristocrat mat, but it's too small there for details.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on February 23, 2019, 06:44:49 PM
14 to junius for games (bonus to Cato )
5 to Cato for knight
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 23, 2019, 08:04:59 PM
Quote from: Erax on February 23, 2019, 06:44:09 PM
It would be nice if you posted the province cards before revenue from now on. I know we can see it in the Aristocrat mat, but it's too small there for details.

I didn't? Oh, I definitely meant to, but I got distracted I guess; I see I did take a snapshot, but I never got around to posting it!

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/7712/jKTIHU.jpg)

This is after its action in the Revenue Phase: Val randomly succeeded in developing it over to the green side; the local taxes were automatically spent on 2 militia (and I.I. didn't add any more this turn); and Val rolled a 5 for the spoils (adding 8 cash to his personal card, and a lingering Corrupto marker to the Province which in his case isn't going to make any difference.) Some of these are a little out of order for the boardgame rules, but I decided I could safely re-arrange them for asynch forum play without the changes being catastrophic.

If you click to zoom on the revenue mat snapshots, you can get an idea of what the Undeveloped version of the Province looks like.

Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on February 24, 2019, 07:47:58 AM
7  to each of the guys. Terentius will spend 5 to get a knight
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 24, 2019, 03:46:28 PM
Segment 2 processing:

I.I. gives his extra point of Influence to Quinctius (up to 25), and 5 cash. 40 cash to Scipio, keeping 4.

Tripoli gives 5 to Manlius for a knight later, and 11 to Aelius who will donate 10 now (up to 111) for 1 Influence, up to 27. (The influence goes up at notches of 1, 3, 7; and to get more than 1 you must donate more than 24 cash.)

The Frog instructs me by chat to give Claudius 5 for an automatic knight later, and the rest (18) to Acilius who will Sponsor the biggest games he can later.

AzTank gives 7 to each senator, with instructions to buy Terentius an automatic knight later. This leaves over 48 points. (It also necessarily means Paullus hands back his Legions upon return to Rome.)

Malize gives 5 to Cato for a knight later, and 14 to Junius for games later (with the bonus Popularity going to Cato later); keeping 3 cash.

Erax gives 26 to Plautius, 5 to Flaminus (for a knight later), and keeps 1.

This ends Segment 2.

Segment 3, Republic income: 111 starting cash; +100 normal income; 2d6-1 income from Gallia Cisalpina = 2+3-1; -20 for Unprosecuted 1st Latin War; -2 x 29 Active units = new Republic cash total 137 Talents!

Province Governors dial down their Terms one notch.

This ends the Revenue Phase. (Everyone should of course check my math!)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 24, 2019, 04:12:53 PM
TURN TWELVE -- FORUM PHASE
--------------------------

There are 18 Scenario cards remaining in the Early Era, so we'll definitely get one more Turn in this Era. But next Turn will very probably shift into the Middle Provincial Era!

One of the Drought effects vanishes, but the one caused by the 1st Illyrian War remains as the only active Event at the start of the Forum Phase.

Dictator Aemilius Paulus Macedonicus (now truly!) is the Highest Ranking Available Official, and so the Conservatives will start around the table with a 2d6 of 4+5, drawing a Scenario: a Faction card to his hand. I've p-mailed him already about it. Terence (per instructions) sacrifices 5 of his 7 cash to automatically buy his 1st knight, normal Vote Tally up to 12. Unless AzTank wants to change his Faction Leader from Furius, or Sponsor Level 1 games, this ends his round. (But if he does, then of course I'll retroactive apply that.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 24, 2019, 04:30:00 PM
Malize's Populists roll 5+6, so draw a Secnario: also a Faction card to his hand (joining his other 2 face down). I've sent him a p-mail about it already. Junias spends 13 cash (keeping 1) to Sponsor 2nd-level Games, reducing Unrest by 2 (already at 0), and earning 2 Popularity, up from 3 to 5. The Populists' extra Pop point goes to Cato, per instructions, from 2 to 3. Vote Tally goes up 3 points from 28 to 31; and then up to 32 for Cato automatically buying a second knight for 5 cash.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 24, 2019, 04:41:02 PM
Erax's Progressives roll boxcars, 6+6, which by all rights should earn Flaminius a non-fatal visit from the Kindly Ones! >:D Instead he'll have to settle for also drawing a red-text Faction card to his hand. (I've sent him a p-mail about it already.) Per his instructions, his new Flaminian Senator sacrifices all 5 of his cash to buy his first minion. Normal Vote tally goes up to 5.

I don't have any other instructions, but any other valid actions I can apply retroactively so I'll move on.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 24, 2019, 04:49:05 PM
I.I.'s Aristocrats roll a 5+2=7, thus generating a Random Event 3d6: 1+3+6=10, and that's another EEEEEvil Omens! ...I shouldn't have joked about the Kindly Ones, I guess. :hide:

Plautius immediately loses 20 of his 26 cash. Fortunately, he gets to keep being PontMax, since he could pay for the sacrifices to propitiate the gods! Unfortunately, most rolls for the rest of the Turn will still subtract 1 (or add 1, whichever hurts more).

I.I. didn't leave me any instructions, so I'll have to pause here. (I've already given the lingering farmed point of Influence, from Val Developing his Province, to Qunctius.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 24, 2019, 08:54:44 PM
I.I. decides to have Scipio attempt to Persuade Sulpicius (the lone Senator smirky richly around the Forum), and sends 17 personal cash to bribe him.

Everyone else gets one counterbribery attempt from their Faction (not personal) cash. Scipio still has 23 personal cash from which he can add a final bribery if he wants, after counterbribing is through!

The Players with Faction cash to work with are Tripoli ( 8 ), AzTank (48!), Malize (3), and Erax (1). If Scipio succeeds, which is never certain (only about 83% chance at best), he'll not only get his bribe back, plus anyone else's counterbribes, but also get control of Sulpy's 28 Talents of personal cash!

I'll give the Players until tomorrow evening to declare whether they're passing, or how much they're counter-bribing. Scipio does currently have the maximum possible chance of succeeding, rolling a 2d6 total of 9 or less.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on February 24, 2019, 09:49:29 PM
no counter bribe from me
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on February 25, 2019, 08:03:16 AM
Republic cash was at 102 after spoils from last turn. 102 + 100 + 10 (donations) - 20 (Punic War) + 4 (provinces) - 58 (military upkeep) = 138.

Oh, and no counter bribes.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 25, 2019, 08:30:16 AM
Yep, apparently I forgot to move the "1" marker up a notch during Spoils for the Macedonian War! -- 138 instead of 137. I'll adjust this afternoon, thanks!
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on February 25, 2019, 11:01:12 AM
By the way, I believe there is a Flaminius statesman for this Era. If anyone has (or draws) him, I'd be willing to trade one of the cards in my hand for him. Card trades can be done right after the Senate Phase ends.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 25, 2019, 11:35:15 AM
Flaminius doesn't have a bracket around his family number, which means the family doesn't have any Statesmen.

There is an Early Era Statesman in the game with the nickname Flaminius, but he comes from a different family. You wouldn't be able to play him on the Flam family: if the family numbers don't match, they aren't from the same family.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 25, 2019, 11:38:41 AM
Also, strictly speaking card trades or donations can happen at any time. They just won't arrive until the Revolution Phase (after the Combat Phase).

This is why I put a "delayed transfer" area on each Player's mat. Although, card trades or donations during the Revolt Phase will arrive immediately.

The same goes for cash: Factions can donate cash to each other or trade for cash at any time, but the cash doesn't arrive until the start of the Revenue Phase, during which time cash transfers will also immediately arrive. (We did that at least once long ago in the first turns between I.I. and... AzTank, I think? I know the transfer happened, and I think it's why they still have a contract in effect, requiring AzTank to defend one I.I. senator from Prosecution upon request.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on February 25, 2019, 12:26:01 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on February 25, 2019, 11:35:15 AM
There is an Early Era Statesman in the game with the nickname Flaminius, but he comes from a different family.

That must be where I got the idea his family had a statesman! OK, never mind then.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 25, 2019, 12:38:38 PM
Quote from: Erax on February 25, 2019, 12:26:01 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on February 25, 2019, 11:35:15 AM
There is an Early Era Statesman in the game with the nickname Flaminius, but he comes from a different family.

That must be where I got the idea his family had a statesman! OK, never mind then.

Yeah, I could prove that but I'd have to show that I know where he is in the deck or in someone's Faction cards already.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 26, 2019, 05:37:34 PM
I'm holding off on processing I.I.'s Persuasion attempt, until I hear back from AzTank one way or another, who is traveling this week. He's the only Player capable of dooming I.I.'s attempt by himself, although the other three Players could help. (31 Talents of counterbribery would be needed to totally doom his chances past Scipio's ability to add final bribes.)

I've sent AzTank a chat message pointing back here, and detailing the situation, which he might be able to respond to before he returns.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 26, 2019, 05:45:33 PM
While waiting for decisions on this, I can move along a little farther with Tripoli's Militarists rolling 5+2=7, another Random Event roll! 1+4+5=10, GAH MOAR EVIL OMENZ!!

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/9521/R0x59T.jpg)

What's even more hellish is that the 1 fell that way by slowly rolling off the edge of the board onto a lower part of the main table. It wasn't originally a 1, though I don't recall what it wouldn't have been.

Each extra Omen subtracts or adds 1 to eventual dice rolls, which by the way includes Persuasion rolls! This won't affect I.I.'s roll if he continues through with it, but the original -1 will. This is something I.I. didn't realize, and which I forgot to mention, so I've provisionally moved another talanton from Scipio's personal cash to the bribe, in order to keep the maximum chance.

It also means (dangit), that PontMax Plautius immediately loses his office, even if he could also pay this 20 Talent fine (which he cannot). Fortunately, only one sacrificial fine is required regardless of the number of Omens randomly thrown up per Turn, so neither Plautius, nor the Progressives, nor the Republic, have to pay anything. He just has to lose the office, for now -- he can be re-elected immediately during the upcoming Senate Phase, if he gets a Proposal and enough votes.

Plautius loses 5 Influence, down from 17 to 12, total down from 21 to 16.

Tripoli's Manlius, per instructions, sacrifices his 5 cash for an automatic 6th knight. This increases the Militarist vote tally to 20, and per the Militarist ability increases Manlius' Mil skill to 9. Tripoli left no other instructions for this Phase, but anything else he could do wouldn't affect the board -- unless he also tries for Sulpy and that depends on what happens with I.I. first.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 26, 2019, 06:13:32 PM
Since that roll didn't affect what to do about Sulpy (I'll allow a retcon catchup if Tripoli or the Frog want to take a shot at Persuading him, depending on how things work out), I'll finish out the Forum Phase with the Frog's Plutocrats rolling... also boxcars, 6 and 6! Man, that luck would have been better spent on something other than avoiding a mere random event for a Scenario draw. Which for the Frog will be...

ohhhhhhhhh elephant pooooooooo....

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/8748/P6HJp2.jpg)

A whole Carthaginian Army was just detected coming over the alps.

The good news, such as it is, is that the War is only Immanent: there's an earlier Matching War already in play. And it doesn't automatically bring Hannibal along: he isn't on the board yet.

The War can be attacked, but doing so will make it go Active and will immediately multiply each War's basic strengths by 2 (plus the Leader bonus). And even if a Force is Deployed against it, if the first War hasn't been Defeated yet the subsequent War won't be attacked. What I'm not sure about, is the exact timing about going Active -- I'll have to study the rules on this question, but attacking both of these Wars would be currently impractical in any case.

Y'all have one Turn to put down the 1st Punic War. And then the nightmare begins.

Once the War goes Active, it will randomly threaten to destroy each Tax Farming Concession (semi-permanently) until Defeated. It will also attack the new (and newly Developed) Province of Gallia Cisalpina, currently Governed by Valerius of the Aristocrats, who will be in charge of its defense if things come to that. Those are problems for next Turn.

Per instructions, Claudius sacrifices all 5 cash for an automatic 2nd knight (Vote tally up to 14). And Acilius spends all 18 of his cash Sponsoring Level-3 games, reducing Unrest by 3 (currently at 0) and increasing his Popularity from 1 to 4.

Under the circumstances, I'm willing to retcon that back if the Frog prefers, to save the Unrest reduction for later...

Aside from resolving the Sulpy situation (and maybe taking back the Frog's Sponsorship), this ends the Forum Phase for Turn Twelve. 14 Scenario cards remain, the first two of which will definitely be Early, and after that the chances for the Middle Era start at 50% and climb sharply from there on each draw.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 26, 2019, 07:34:05 PM
InRoman times, overactive children were told that Hannibal would come to get them if they didn't settle down. We are about to see why that was an effective child rearing practice
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on February 26, 2019, 07:56:58 PM
The good news is, we don't have any other wars to deal with. We are at 12 fleets, 17 legions.

I suggest we go all out, raise 10 fleets. Then we appoint Scipio Dictator with a high-mil MoH and send him with everything vs. the First Punic War.

Naval combat: 22 - 13 - 2 (omens) = +7 plus whatever MIL we can summon.

Land combat: 17 + 5 (vets) - 13 - 2 = +7 plus MIL too.

Having 5 more fleets than legions should give us a buffer to avoid losing legions in the naval battle.

Oh, and appoint a Plutocrat Consul so we don't go bankrupt from some random event next turn.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 26, 2019, 08:00:27 PM
Quote from: Erax on February 26, 2019, 07:56:58 PM
My proposal is definitely for option 2, board the legions on the fleets and send everything under Scipio, who voids the war's D/S results for the naval battle and the land battle. We should have enough surplus fleets that we can lose a few without taking any legion losses before they even land.

Regarding Consuls, I suggest:

Scipio for Dictator.
A Militarist MoH, either Julius or Manlius.
A Plutocrat Rome Consul.
A Populist Field Consul.
A Conservative Censor (who agrees not to prosecute)
And Pontifex back to the Progressives.

That way every faction gets something.

While I appreciate the sentiment of giving everybody something, I believe the important objective this turn is to win the first Punic war, before the 2nd becomes active.  Remember, we have a -2 bad omen, and Hamilcar leading the Carthiginians.  We also may take losses in the naval battle.  Because of this, it is best, IMHO, to have a Dictator/MoH combination win the naval battle, and have a militarist field counsel win the land battle.  Personally, I'm not too excited about having a militarist as either MoH or Field Counsel, due to the very real possibility of them dying in battle against the Carthaginians.   Such a loss would be a grievous blow to my faction.  However, to keep the Punic War from metastasizing, I'm willing to take the risk.  Here's my logic: If we use the Dictator/MoH combination for both the naval and land combat we 1) risk losing legions in the naval fight, and thereby reduce our chances in the land battle and 2) Give the dictator a "double tap" of popularity and influence.  That could be bad for the remaining senators, and the Republic.  Therefore, I believe it is best for us to maintain a balance of political power and divide up the command: A Dictator/MoH for the naval component and a Field Counsel for the land component.  Because of this, and the the necessity of winning the land combat, a militarist commander for the land component is the best choice.  As I have done in the past, I'm willing to forgo having legions swearing loyalty to me, in the event I am victorious, to put a check on the militarist faction becoming a threat to the Republic.  If someone believes they are being left out of this arrangement, we could offer them the next captured province (likely Sicily).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 26, 2019, 11:03:49 PM
No word from AzTank yet, but I'll wait until tomorrow after work to proceed. Y'all have some politicking to chew over anyway (publicly and perhaps behind the scenes) in preparation for this Senate Phase.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 27, 2019, 12:52:05 PM
"Progress is being occurred" today (to borrow one of my former pupil's favorite Chinglish sayings). I expect to be able to process into the Senate Phase this afternoon.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 27, 2019, 05:43:24 PM
TURN TWELVE -- POPULATION PHASE
-------------------------------

The resolution of the Sulpy Seduction won't affect the Population Phase, or vice versa, so I'll continue on while some final political matters are being political'd.

Putting Rome in order! All senators with PontMax and above get Major Suspicion. (The ex-PontMax Plautius got one after losing his office from Evil Omens.)

Next Turn, the 2nd Punic War will arrive in the Roman heartlands and threaten to destroy the Tax Concessions during this Phase. But not yet.

Each family in the Curia normally rolls now to see if they can promote a scion back to the Senate. However, with two Evil Omens deducting 2 from the dice roll, it would be impossible to score the 5 or 6 to succeed.

Same goes for Philip the Vth: Evil Omens are great for his natural health, making him impervious to a natural death!

Evil Omens do not directly increase Unrest. But +1 for the Unprosecuted 1st Punic War, and +1 for the ongoing food shortage (drought effect) caused by the Inactive 1st Illyrian War.

The Dictator Paullus Macedonicus of the Conservatives will give the State of the Republic Speech, the result of which will be his Popularity of 5; -2 Unrest; -2 Evil Omens (they do affect the die roll); and a 3d6 roll of 1+2+6 = 13. A solid effort, no change. (It's much easier for the Presiding Magistrate to make Unrest worse with his speech, than to reduce it! His unmodified roll would have been another -2 to Unrest!)

Technically this would open the Senate Phase, but I've now gone as far as I can without resolving the Sulpy persuasion.

The Frog, incidentally, confirms that he'll still spend his cash on the level-3 Games, so those results stand.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 27, 2019, 10:32:37 PM
Having been given my final instructions by various parties, sort of, I'll proceed along.

Tripoli sacrifices all 8 of the Militarist Faction cash on a counterbribe.

Scipio still has 22 cash in reserve (not 23, he had to add an extra initial Talent retroactively to reach the maximum 9 chance -- my fault not his). But AzTank's adds 22 to the bribe from Conservative Faction cash, down from 48 to 26.

Even if Scipio added a final bribe of 22, the math would look like this:

Evil Omen: -1 (the first one)
Sulpy Loyalty (to himself): -8
Sulpy original cash: -28
Sulpy counterbribes: -8 -22
Scipio Influence: +23
Scipio Ora: +5
Scipio initial bribe: +18 (this part has already been sacrificed and cannot be taken back)
Scipio theoretical final bribe: +22

Final 2d6 target total not to exceed: 1. And 2d6 will necessarily total at least 2.

Consequently there's no reason for Scipio to add any more of his cash: his Persuasion attempt is going to automatically fail now regardless. (Although if I.I. insists on giving it to Sulpicius anyway, I'll process that for him!)

Sulpy's new personal cash: 28 starting + 18 bribes +8 +22 counterbribes = Great Scotia, SEVENTY-SIX TALANTONS!

No wonder he's smirking. One less-than-average-talented senator (and his family) has accrued enough cash, DOING LITERALLY NOTHING, to rival the treasury of the whole Republic.

There's a moral here somewhere.

Let's start the Senate before Sulpy declares war on us.



...um, I've had to stay up late the past few nights, so I'm going to wait to post mat snapshots until tomorrow afternoon. But y'all know enough to start working out plans, which indeed you've already started doing.

Remember, Dictator Paullus Macedonicus (AzTank's Statesman) of the Conservatives, starts as Presiding Magistrate, so unless someone jumps in with a Tribune he'll have to make the Proposal for Consuls (which must come first).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on February 28, 2019, 02:34:51 PM
We only have one war to fight, so the consuls' stats aren't that important. I suggest a Plutocrat Rome Consul because we may have unexpected expenses next turn, and the Field Consul could be one of the many lesser Senators.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 28, 2019, 02:58:57 PM
One strategic point worth considering, which would be related to at least one Consul and maybe a Dictator/MoH combo again, is whether to try punching through to a land battle this turn.

The crux is this: if you don't get rid of the 1st Punic War this turn, its base strengths (both land and sea) are going to double next turn. That's at best -- we don't know where Hannibal is, but he has to be coming, and he'll stack with Hamilcar. (Their bonuses will be added to the multiplied figures, not multiplied themselves, but still. Also Han's D/S results will be factored into the others!) Possibly worse, is that we don't know when the 3rd Punic War will appear, Middle or Late Era, but if it's Middle Era then there's a real if small chance that it will go Immanent next Turn! (And an increasing chance each Turn afterward.)

To have even a chance of getting rid of the 1st Punic War this Turn, two things must happen: the Naval War must be Defeated (once Defeated, it's gone for good); and the Land War must be attacked this Turn after winning the Naval War.

Assuming the Players agree that you must at least try to shoot against the Land War this Turn, there are only two ways to try. And this is where the question of which senators will be which Consuls and/or Dictator-and-MoH comes in. (And where any such force will be applied, to land or to sea.)

1.) A Naval Force is Deployed under a Consul or under a Dictator/MoH. Then a Land Force is Deployed to the same War under a different Consul or Dictator/MoH. The Land Force is safe from naval casualties, but will not fight with the benefits of the Naval Commander (nor the Naval Force fight with the benefits of the Land Commander.) If the Naval Force punches through, and if they have at least 10 Fleets remaining (the necessary Support level for the Land War), then the Land Force attacks the War subsequently. This is similar to the Senate Deploying two Forces under two Commanders to attack the same War, which they then do in sequence with their separate forces. (The difference in this case, is that two Victories, Naval and Land, and thus two Victorious Commanders are possible.)

2.) A Naval Force carrying a Land Force is Deployed under a Consul or under a Dictator/MoH. The Legions risk taking casualties in the Navy fight, but if the Navy punches through (and if enough Naval Support remains), then the same Commander (not a different one) can lend his skills to the Land Force in an immediate land attack against the War. Theoretically he could win two Victories (and two Pop and Inf benefits) this way, too!

There are pros and cons either way (including politically!), and I will implement either general plan. But they could require distinct Consul and possibly Dictator/MoH picks.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 28, 2019, 04:55:50 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on February 28, 2019, 02:58:57 PM
One strategic point worth considering, which would be related to at least one Consul and maybe a Dictator/MoH combo again, is whether to try punching through to a land battle this turn.

The crux is this: if you don't get rid of the 1st Punic War this turn, its base strengths (both land and sea) are going to double next turn. That's at best -- we don't know where Hannibal is, but he has to be coming, and he'll stack with Hamilcar. (Their bonuses will be added to the multiplied figures, not multiplied themselves, but still. Also Han's D/S results will be factored into the others!) Possibly worse, is that we don't know when the 3rd Punic War will appear, Middle or Late Era, but if it's Middle Era then there's a real if small chance that it will go Immanent next Turn! (And an increasing chance each Turn afterward.)

To have even a chance of getting rid of the 1st Punic War this Turn, two things must happen: the Naval War must be Defeated (once Defeated, it's gone for good); and the Land War must be attacked this Turn after winning the Naval War.

Assuming the Players agree that you must at least try to shoot against the Land War this Turn, there are only two ways to try. And this is where the question of which senators will be which Consuls and/or Dictator-and-MoH comes in. (And where any such force will be applied, to land or to sea.)

1.) A Naval Force is Deployed under a Consul or under a Dictator/MoH. Then a Land Force is Deployed to the same War under a Consul or under a Dictator/MoH. The Land Force is safe from naval casualties, but will not fight with the benefits of the Naval Commander (nor the Naval Force fight with the benefits of the Land Commander.) If the Naval Force punches through, and if they have at least 10 Fleets remaining (the necessary Support level for the Land War), then the Land Force attacks the War subsequently. This is similar to the Senate Deploying two Forces under two Commanders to attack the same War, which they then do in sequence with their separate forces. (The difference in this case, is that two Victories, Naval and Land, and thus two Victorious Commanders are possible.)

2.) A Naval Force carrying a Land Force is Deployed under a Consul or under a Dictator/MoH. The Legions risk taking casualties in the Navy fight, but if the Navy punches through (and if enough Naval Support remains), then the same Commander (not a different one) can lend his skills to the Land Force in an immediate land attack against the War. Theoretically he could win two Victories (and two Pop and Inf benefits) this way, too!

There are pros and cons either way (including politically!), and I will implement either general plan. But they could require distinct Consul and possibly Dictator/MoH picks.

I'm thinking that we need to do something like we did last turn-have a militarist be the MoH to Scipo, and have the other one be a field counsel.  I can see having a Plutocrat as Roman counsel would be safe-I don't think we are going to get 4 wars now, so Bankruptcy is a larger danger.   If players are worried about the militarists having too many loyal legions, I promise to disband any loyal legion I obtain after this turn, or the 2nd Punic war is won, whatever the Senate decides. 
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on February 28, 2019, 05:35:50 PM
My proposal is definitely for option 2, board the legions on the fleets and send everything under Scipio, who voids the war's D/S results for the naval battle and the land battle. We should have enough surplus fleets that we can lose a few without taking any legion losses before they even land.

Regarding Consuls, I suggest:

Scipio for Dictator.
A Militarist MoH, either Julius or Manlius.
A Plutocrat Rome Consul.
A Populist Field Consul.
A Conservative Censor (who agrees not to prosecute)
And Pontifex back to the Progressives.

That way every faction gets something.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 28, 2019, 06:05:21 PM
Before I can post mat snapshots, officially starting the Senate Phase, I need to go back and take care of the Sulpy Situation again!

Coincidentally, ten minutes after I posted the resolution last night, AzTank who hadn't seen that yet, contacted me to explain that he would contribute half of what was necessary to prevent I.I. from getting Sulpy.

I had interpreted his prior instruction, that he would cooperate with Tripoli in keeping Sulpy from the Aristocrats, to mean (absent further details) that so long as Tripoli contributed a proportionately major effort (which he did), AzTank would contribute enough remainder to foil I.I.

For this purpose, thanks to all 8 Talents from the Militarists, reducing I.I.'s target window to 1, Az needed to contribute 22 cash: thus even if Scipio final-bribed all his remaining 22 cash, he'd still only have a target window of 1 on a 2d6 roll: a necessary fail. (Consequently neither was there any reason for Scipio to contribute a final bribe.)

The only way I can think of to interpret AzTank's new clarification, is that once Tripoli's 8 cash brings down I.I.'s target window to 1, Az would pre-emptively contribute enough to make sure Scipio's final bid never brought the target window back up past 5. In other words, Az would contribute counterbribes equal to Scipio's 22 -5 +1 = 18 Talents. From that point I.I. will have to launch 19 final cash at least to get a minimum 2.78% chance to win (i.e. 18 cash to overcome Az's 18 bribe, getting back to a +1 window, plus 1 more cash to bump his target window up to 2, which is at least a possible 2d6 total); and all 22 cash to get, at most, a 27.78% chance of winning (target window 5 or less).

In short, this means in effect:

(1) Conservative cash goes back up 4, from 26 to 30.

(2) Sulpy's personal cash goes back down 4, from 76 to 72.

(3) I must now hear from I.I. about whether he intends for Scipio to contribute his final 22 cash (or less?!) for a target window of 5 (or less!)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 28, 2019, 06:12:38 PM
Quote from: Erax on February 28, 2019, 05:35:50 PM
My proposal is definitely for option 2, board the legions on the fleets and send everything under Scipio, who voids the war's D/S results for the naval battle and the land battle. We should have enough surplus fleets that we can lose a few without taking any legion losses before they even land.

This is very correct, considering my house rules for reasonable Legion/Fleet dispositions.  O:-)

I note that my house rule includes an implication, also reasonable, that Legions being transported in a naval combat situation, are limited by the number of Fleets, one to one. (Supply Fleets aren't the same thing as transport: they just secure the sea lane from further harassment and make sure a steady stream of supplies arrives in enough quantities to continue the campaign.)

So if you send 10 Fleets, you can only transport 10 Legions in as simultaneous attack under the same commander, and all of them will take losses parallel with the Fleets. If you send 25 Fleets along with only 10 Legions, the first 15 Fleets will take casualties first, not the reserve Fleets carrying the Legions -- except in case of a Disaster result, in which case I'll come up with some kind of random Fleet/Legion pairing and test for casualties. (I might not do so for a mere "Standoff" result, which doesn't seem like something that would necessarily penetrate through to threaten Legion bearing Fleets.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on February 28, 2019, 06:38:35 PM
Quote from: Erax on February 28, 2019, 05:35:50 PM
My proposal is definitely for option 2, board the legions on the fleets and send everything under Scipio, who voids the war's D/S results for the naval battle and the land battle. We should have enough surplus fleets that we can lose a few without taking any legion losses before they even land.

Regarding Consuls, I suggest:

Scipio for Dictator.
A Militarist MoH, either Julius or Manlius.
A Plutocrat Rome Consul.
A Populist Field Consul.
A Conservative Censor (who agrees not to prosecute)
And Pontifex back to the Progressives.

That way every faction gets something.

This arrangement is what I'd prefer as well.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 28, 2019, 08:57:31 PM
I.I. takes the risk! (Based on a p-mail, not on his comment agreeing to the basic shape of Erax's plan.)

If he wins, he gains control of boocoos of cash. If he loses, well, no one else will be getting that pot anytime soon.

This isn't a game-crucial roll (as far as I know), but control and/or loss of gobs of cash are at stake, so I rolled it over at ArmDrag, where for no reason I can discover the module now regards all rolls as tampered with.  :idiot2: #:-)

https://www.armchairdragoons.com/forum/index.php?topic=627.new#new

I can (kind of) prove it wasn't, since the forum software will mark a post as edited, and I haven't edited the post. But anyway.

I.I. loses the roll (with an automatic losing total of 10). Scipio's cash goes to zero. Sulpy's cash goes to freaking NINETY-FOUR TALENTS. (I think, if I did the math correctly. Checking is allowed and encouraged.  O:-) )

No one downstream of I.I. will be able to challenge that this Turn, either.

All that's left-over from the Forum Phase, is for Quinctius (per I.I.'s instructions, contingent on whether he got Sulpy or not) to spend his 5 cash buying his 4th knight. Normal vote tally goes up to 14. (Keeping in mind that Valerius is off at Gallia Cisalpina, watching the 2nd Punic War roll over the Alps, and unable to vote in the Senate this Phase.)

Snapshots coming soon! I hope! (Along with aspirin chewed up like BC Powder!)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on February 28, 2019, 09:31:17 PM
TURN TWELVE -- SENATE PHASE
---------------------------

I've overstrained somewhat in the past few days on various projects, and a headache is on the way to taking me down for the night. So as much as I want to, I'm not adding commentary to the snapshots this time. Maybe later.

Clockwise from Player One:

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/3047/wDB7U2.jpg)


(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/5076/PsoPLv.jpg)


(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/3465/qN3wvl.jpg)


(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/8274/hSwrOM.jpg)


(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/9215/pciYEL.jpg)


(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/8058/MHCPlj.jpg)


The Forum currently after the Forum Phase:
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/4384/iRVARw.jpg)

Remember, those two Evil Omens are going to screw with most dice rolls by two points to the worse! (That's a reminder to me, too. ;) )


Here are the three Wars on the board, stacked up nicely in the Unprosecuted, Immanent, and Inactive rows.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/1064/TU0Erf.jpg)

(The Enemy Leader cut-off to the upper right, is Philip of Macedon, waiting around in the Curia to see if he'll die of natural causes before his next War gets drawn. He will immediately Activate and boost the next Macedon War! -- but that isn't a problem this Turn.)

Currently I've got the Republic Treasury marked at 137 Talents. Current income +100, and you won't get any taxes from Gallia Cisalpina because they're about to be sieged by the 2nd Punic War! Current expected expenses: -58 unit upkeep; -20 for the 1st Punic War; -20 for the 2nd Punic War upcoming.

Active Legions: 12 Regular, 5 Vets.
Potential Legions: 8 in the Force Pool.
Active Fleets: 12.
Potential Fleets: 13.

AzTank's Conservative Statesman Lucius Aemilius Paullus Macedonicus is currently the Dictator, thus the Presiding Magistrate to start the Senate.

First Mandatory Business: voting in two new Consuls. (Not Paullus, nor current Consuls Aelius and Manlius of the Militarists.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on February 28, 2019, 10:26:57 PM
Quote from: IncompetentIdiot on February 28, 2019, 06:38:35 PM
Quote from: Erax on February 28, 2019, 05:35:50 PM
My proposal is definitely for option 2, board the legions on the fleets and send everything under Scipio, who voids the war's D/S results for the naval battle and the land battle. We should have enough surplus fleets that we can lose a few without taking any legion losses before they even land.

Regarding Consuls, I suggest:

Scipio for Dictator.
A Militarist MoH, either Julius or Manlius.
A Plutocrat Rome Consul.
A Populist Field Consul.
A Conservative Censor (who agrees not to prosecute)
And Pontifex back to the Progressives.

That way every faction gets something.

This arrangement is what I'd prefer as well.

While I understand the sentiment of everybody getting something, I believe it is in the best interest of Rome to have the Field counsel be a militarist.  First of all, I'm not terribly excited about the prospect, given the very real chance of a militarist senator dying in a battle against the Carthaginians.  I actually don't benefit much from being MoH, and the risk of losing one of my senators makes the proposition dubious for my faction.  However, keeping the Republic alive is more important.  So I am willing to risk one of my senators as MoH.  However, I don't believe that this is the best course for the Republic. What is important is winning the 1st Punic War before the 2nd becomes active.  With a -2 bad omen modifier, and Hamilcar in command, and the very real possibility of losing legions in the naval battle, we will need to have the strongest field counsel available.  That indicates  a militarist.  Alternatively, we can have the entire campaign under the command of a Dictator/MoH, but that risks giving the dictator a "double tap" boost in popularity and influence if they do win both engagements, something that because of balance of power considerations the Senate may not want.  THerefore, I believe the best course of action is to have a Dictator/MoH with a large fleet and a militarist land commander both maximizes the chance of winning, minimizes the possible Roman losses, and ensures that no player unduly benefits, which is important to us keeping the Republic going.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on February 28, 2019, 10:52:28 PM
Quote from: Tripoli on February 28, 2019, 10:26:57 PM
Quote from: IncompetentIdiot on February 28, 2019, 06:38:35 PM
Quote from: Erax on February 28, 2019, 05:35:50 PM
My proposal is definitely for option 2, board the legions on the fleets and send everything under Scipio, who voids the war's D/S results for the naval battle and the land battle. We should have enough surplus fleets that we can lose a few without taking any legion losses before they even land.

Regarding Consuls, I suggest:

Scipio for Dictator.
A Militarist MoH, either Julius or Manlius.
A Plutocrat Rome Consul.
A Populist Field Consul.
A Conservative Censor (who agrees not to prosecute)
And Pontifex back to the Progressives.

That way every faction gets something.

This arrangement is what I'd prefer as well.

While I understand the sentiment of everybody getting something, I believe it is in the best interest of Rome to have the Field counsel be a militarist.  First of all, I'm not terribly excited about the prospect, given the very real chance of a militarist senator dying in a battle against the Carthaginians.  I actually don't benefit much from being MoH, and the risk of losing one of my senators makes the proposition dubious for my faction.  However, keeping the Republic alive is more important.  So I am willing to risk one of my senators as MoH.  However, I don't believe that this is the best course for the Republic. What is important is winning the 1st Punic War before the 2nd becomes active.  With a -2 bad omen modifier, and Hamilcar in command, and the very real possibility of losing legions in the naval battle, we will need to have the strongest field counsel available.  That indicates  a militarist.  Alternatively, we can have the entire campaign under the command of a Dictator/MoH, but that risks giving the dictator a "double tap" boost in popularity and influence if they do win both engagements, something that because of balance of power considerations the Senate may not want.  THerefore, I believe the best course of action is to have a Dictator/MoH with a large fleet and a militarist land commander both maximizes the chance of winning, minimizes the possible Roman losses, and ensures that no player unduly benefits, which is important to us keeping the Republic going.

Scipio, with his Magister Equitem will be able to reach a higher bonus than any single senator, in addition to the cancellation of D/S results. I do recognize the concern regarding my disproportionate share of the spoils (although I would note that my senators currently have less influence and popularity, both individually and in sum, than do yours), so I wouldn't mind consenting to Valerius' replacement as governor of Gallia Cisalpina (his MIL score is pretty useless if he needs to defend the province).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on March 01, 2019, 06:13:12 AM
I'm aware that the Militarists are getting the least out of this proposal, but in past turns they got Dictator+MoH and then both Consuls +MoH, they're doing OK.

Concerning the Punic War, the D/S situation is such that if we send anyone other than Scipio we have a 50% chance to not win, regardless of the number of troops. My analysis keeps coming back to the same conclusion - letting Scipio handle both battles is the safest way forward.

The province governorship is about to become a liability with the Second Punic War about to besiege it, so we might as well leave Valerius there, it will in some measure compensate for the Aristocrats getting the best out of this proposal.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 01, 2019, 08:49:31 AM
Worth noting that you can always Recall Val next Turn and send someone better suited to Province defense. But (if I recall correctly) a senator's Mil skill only works on Legions (and Republican Fleets), not on any provincial units. (This admittedly makes little sense, but I suppose was set up for game balance reasons.) So unless he gets sent a Garrison Force, his military capability won't matter.

The best defense against the province being rolled (and, worse, picked up and used for its remaining military strength by the War), is to knock out the War.

This leads to the question of whether Prosecuting a War will keep it from attacking its target Province(s) -- while still allowing the Governor to try attacking the War himself at his discretion. If that isn't a rule, I would be willing to house-rule it since it seems both obvious and reasonable (though I'll have to consider game balance, too. I've expanded and tweaked the Provincial War rules quite a bit already.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on March 01, 2019, 01:33:03 PM
Maybe a way to resolve the impass is to take a longer view re: militarist in power positions


That is to say — if we follow the min/max numbers logic for success in this critical war, and the militarist wins...he takes his benefits and agrees to sit aside for a couple turns when it comes to senate appointments.


This would seem a possible way forward to get best war results now and the concerns about militarist power


I provide this merely in attempt to help us forward.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 01, 2019, 01:43:57 PM
A public Contract might be useful along that line.

Perhaps relatedly: even with the adjusted more reasonable automatic Consul-for-Life appointment rules -- which are so new I'll need to go look them up again ;) -- the Militarists are coming close to triggering an automatic win, if they sweep the Naval and Land Victories this Turn.

I don't want to keep moving the goalposts on this, not least because it wouldn't be fair for any Players trying to win the game early by themselves. So there needs to be foresight on this problem, too, within the rules. An easy solution would be for Tripoli to Contract one or more senators out from accepting CFL office appointment (which would still leave them with the option to get it done legally by voter manipulation cough cough  >:D ) .
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on March 01, 2019, 06:32:17 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on March 01, 2019, 01:43:57 PM
A public Contract might be useful along that line.

Perhaps relatedly: even with the adjusted more reasonable automatic Consul-for-Life appointment rules -- which are so new I'll need to go look them up again ;) -- the Militarists are coming close to triggering an automatic win, if they sweep the Naval and Land Victories this Turn.

I don't want to keep moving the goalposts on this, not least because it wouldn't be fair for any Players trying to win the game early by themselves. So there needs to be foresight on this problem, too, within the rules. An easy solution would be for Tripoli to Contract one or more senators out from accepting CFL office appointment (which would still leave them with the option to get it done legally by voter manipulation cough cough  >:D ) .

I'll publically state that I am willing to forgo any militarist winning via an auto-victory.    I really am interested in seeing the Republic survive as a republic.  IMHO, that is far more difficult and challenging then a strongman taking over.  See: All of Recorded Human History..... :'( 
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 01, 2019, 06:36:31 PM
Is that a Contract? Technically I have to have it put that way, in order to enforce it.

(Contracting out of an automatic appointment win, should be well within the game rules, since it would be considered a strategic move to avoid losing the game altogether.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on March 01, 2019, 11:15:22 PM
Yep I will make it a contract. I really am intrigued to see whether we can keep the Republican form of the Roman govt going
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on March 02, 2019, 09:12:18 AM
And just to clarify-I am agreeing that the counsel for life (Appointed) provisions do not apply to any militarist.  The elected counsel for life provisions provisions continue to apply.  After all, it is true democracy if you can't vote away your freedom?   >:D
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 02, 2019, 12:08:41 PM
Contract added to your mat, and to the standing Contract area.  O0

Okay, where are we in terms of senatorial plans this Turn...?
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 02, 2019, 12:43:58 PM
I think everyone so far, who has spoken up, would agree to support a Contracted plan where the Fleets and Legions attempt to punch through under one Force Commander (as Dictator plus MoS/H presumably), risking some Legions casualties on the water. I don't think I saw anyone arguing specifically in favor of sending two Forces, one Sea one Land? -- the primary problem being that whoever isn't Scipio in that scenario risks a nearly 50/50 chance of an automatic D/S result, which even if the Populist Statesman with the 50% damage debuff is in charge (Fabius Maximus), will mean no Victory and next Turn everything gets much worse.

Another alternate to sending everyone under Scipio (to avoid the War's basic D/S results) plus a Militarist MoS/H (to buff the Legion punch as much as possible), would be to send three Forces to hit the War, on the theory that if the first two attacks burn out a D and S result each, no such result can remain this Turn (whether Naval or Land!) and the final attack surges at (almost) maximum strength with the D and/or S results gone.

On a plan of this general sort, the Field and Roman Consuls would each go forth first with one Fleet each as sacrificial bait, like those generals during the Republic who ritually devoted themselves to the battle and charged in suicidally, hoping to earn the gods' favor for the main assault coming after him. You'd have a 75.45% chance of burning out at least a D or S result, though of course less of a chance burning out both (depending on which burns first). Then Scipio follows in with a Militarist MoS/H behind the sacrificial senators with the remaining Fleets (minus 2 presumed dead) and all the Legions, just in case both results didn't burn out.

It's the same plan as the Scipio variant of Option 2 (as generally proposed by Erax), but two senators (presumably weak family Senators not Statesmen) are sacrificed along with two Fleets to improve his chances by probing feints.

I don't want to go further in making this an actual suggestion with more suggestions on how to best work it out. But I thought I should mention how the D/S burn rule (which hasn't been a factor yet since no one has sent multiple Force Commands against the same War at the same time) might be legally applied here in favor of increasing Scipio's success.

I will however note that this makes Last Ditch financial security by electing a Plutocrat as HRAO, more dicey. If one or both of the Consuls survive, he/they'll return back to Rome immediately at the end of the Combat Phase (presumably without his Fleet of course), and could thus end up in charge during the pre-Senate Phases next Turn -- not a Plutocrat HRAO!
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on March 04, 2019, 11:21:00 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on March 02, 2019, 12:43:58 PM
...

It's the same plan as the Scipio variant of Option 2 (as generally proposed by Erax), but two senators (presumably weak family Senators not Statesmen) are sacrificed along with two Fleets to improve his chances by probing feints.

I don't want to go further in making this an actual suggestion with more suggestions on how to best work it out. But I thought I should mention how the D/S burn rule (which hasn't been a factor yet since no one has sent multiple Force Commands against the same War at the same time) might be legally applied here in favor of increasing Scipio's success.

I will however note that this makes Last Ditch financial security by electing a Plutocrat as HRAO, more dicey. If one or both of the Consuls survive, he/they'll return back to Rome immediately at the end of the Combat Phase (presumably without his Fleet of course), and could thus end up in charge during the pre-Senate Phases next Turn -- not a Plutocrat HRAO!

I'm not sure this is a workable option.  The odds of a faction loosing a member, along with the political power, is too great.  Regardless of who the sacrificial lamb would be, it seems to me that there would have to be side agreements to compensate them for their loss of members.  Such agreements would be very difficult to craft.  I recommend that we decide how we are going to prosecute the Punic war, ie, one dictator/MoH or a Dictator/MoH and land commander, UNLESS someone wants to identify who will "bell the cat" using Jason's proposed third force option, as well as any side deals that they want for such a force.  I'll say that I'm not willing to risk my faction members on it.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on March 04, 2019, 02:55:11 PM
As an aside, it seems odd to me that it would be so relatively easy to attain a game winning position so early in Rome's history...I guess that's make Sulla the winner IRL, but he wasn't, was he?   It'd think the winning position would be that of Caeser, or even His heir...it'd not enough to be first man for life, your inheritor would seem to need an equal standing to insure continuity of the line (or face civil war...you could see that as being the irl outcome.  Augustus had to fight to gain the inheritance, but being the second of his faction AND family in succession as First Man cemented the imperial dynasty
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 04, 2019, 03:59:01 PM
Yeah, I don't know that the designers really thought this through. But I think the concept was based on: Can the Players keep the Republic alive cooperatively, while being tempted to throw the Republic under the bus for their own power and advancement?

The obvious end-game states would be 1, the Republic just outright crumbles from bad management and/or exterior pressure (including bad luck to be honest); and 2, the Republic ends with a senator and his coterie overthrowing the Republic to create an Empire.

On that theory, engineering a Consul for Life election -- which can't be easy to do since no one would elect you! -- would constitute a single-win condition like a successful rebellion, because your Faction has gained pre-eminent power by shattering the basis of Republican government. The Republic is done, even if only temporarily, but you win alone, so everyone loses except you.

I can see that in principle, once put in the context of the original game concept (keeping the Republic alive past its historical expiration), but because engineering such an election is so hard to do then the designers must have felt that it didn't create enough internal temptation pressure to screw with each other, so they introduced the idea of an automatic appointment to Consul for Life. Which is bonkers, especially in the over-simplistic way they implemented it.


Relatedly, did you notice that according to the vanilla rules, even as late as the Living Rules April 2018, a Player can win EVEN IF HIS EMPEROR/CONS-LIFE GETS CAPTURED IN BATTLE?!

Yeah. That's a thing. (I seem to recall he can win even if his senator gets killed off, under certain conditions, just for having produced him! -- not only in the sense of coming back later after losing him, which is totally possible for a Player with a failed Rebel Emperor, though not very likely of course.)

But winning with a Captured Emperor makes a slight margin of sense when considered in the context of Can the Republic survive without being broken? Player X broke the Republic, so even though his Emperor can't rule he still wins.

(I'm pretty sure I house-ruled this out: the Emperor has to still be in power at the end of the Turn.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 06, 2019, 05:28:44 PM
Progress update: AzTank, who controls the current Dictator senator (Paullus Macedonicus), and therefore who is playing the Presiding Magistrate for the first Mandatory Business Proposal (the Consuls), is trying to cipher through the various discussions and recommendations to make a Consul Proposal.

I'm not sure when he'll make a decision, of course.

Any further help in boiling down advice and analysis for him will be appreciated!  O:-)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 06, 2019, 08:49:32 PM
Okay, AzTank says (from hangout chat) that Paullus will Propose Claudius of the Plutocrats and Manlius of the Militarists as Consuls.

That should provide some flexibility to work with going forward this Turn.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on March 07, 2019, 05:14:39 PM
This works, I'll vote in favor.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on March 07, 2019, 07:03:03 PM
Voting For.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 07, 2019, 08:18:04 PM
Vote tally so far is Conservatives 12 + Populists 32 + Progressives 5 = 49.

This is actually a majority by one vote already! Remaining votes potentially against are Aristos 14 (not leading Influence so no activist extra votes, and Val is away from Rome) + 20 Militarists + 14 Plutocrats = 48.

A Tribune can't veto a Dictator's Proposal either, and even if someone wanted to stop a vote by assassination it would be too late to stop the majority. (Not that I think anyone would want to do either of those, but technically I have to account for such options.)
The new Claudian senator becomes a Consul, gaining +5 Inf, up from 4 to 9; Plutocrat total up to 30.

AzTank didn't realize that Manlius was already a Consul, so couldn't be nominated (nor Aelius), but Julius would be equal in Mil skill, in case that's important later, and he lacks Manny's influence anyway. So I'll be glad to retcon that Proposal over to him. Up 5 Influence from 26 to 31 (like Manlius); Militarist total up from 20 to 25.

(In his defense, I didn't catch whom he was Proposing either.  :-[ In my defense, neither did Erax.  >:D )


Next Mandatory Business: the Consuls must agree on who will be Roman and Field; and also on whether/who to appoint as Dictator.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on March 07, 2019, 11:30:48 PM
I'm on the road and using my iPhone so I'm a bit limited in reviewing the various options  I will vote for azranks proposal. As far as dictator I believe we were discussing scipio because he neutralizes d/s results
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 08, 2019, 08:14:05 AM
Yep, don't even need more voting, there was already a majority and Julius is already a Consul (again), along with Cornelius.

You and the Frog will have to publicly agree among yourselves who will be Roman and Field; and then decide whether/who should be the Dictator (presumably Scipio).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on March 08, 2019, 06:05:46 PM
Will be on the road with the iPhone all weekend. I'm good with scipo as dictator and Julius as field counsel and the Claudius as Rome counsel. Frog. -  you good with that?
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 08, 2019, 07:11:21 PM
I've passed on Tripoli's post to the Frog via hangout chat. (Tripoli's there, too, but may not have access to it on his iPhone.)

I'll report back, if the Frog replies there instead of here, though of course it might be here.  O:-)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on March 08, 2019, 09:47:48 PM
I am good with that.  Sorry that I lost track of the thread.  I have read through, but don't really understand what the battle plan is. 
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 08, 2019, 10:14:31 PM
Don't feel bad, the battle plan hasn't been fully finalized yet.  O:-)

Oh, right, I forgot: next Mandatory Business before the Dictator is PontMax!

I'll alert the Frog; as Roman Consul, he has to make the Proposal on this before Scipio takes over PM duties as Dictator.

Erax, I think earlier you were asking for Plautius to recover PontMaxery. ;) Flaminius would be of more benefit to you, since he's already a minor priest: PontMaxes can be minor priests already, but cannot give themselves a minor priesthood. This way Flam could immediately give a minor priesthood to Plautius (who couldn't give it to himself), and you're ahead 1 Talent per turn than you would have been if Plautius got it back.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on March 09, 2019, 07:37:38 AM
I was thinking about Flaminius myself, that would be a better choice! It's strange that a Senator doesn't lose his priesthood upon being 'promoted' to PontMax, but that's what the rules say.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 09, 2019, 10:59:17 AM
Two different priesthoods I guess; it isn't like a Judeo-Christian religion where there is only one kind of priest of different grades. One senator is responsible for making sure fish are sacrificed to Vulcan under Vesuvius each month, another is responsible for making sure the gods of the drains of the city are kept happy; and either one of those or someone else could also be PontMax.

The rule is really more about keeping the PontMax from giving himself extra benefits.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 09, 2019, 11:07:06 AM
Okay, by chat (I just checked this morning), the Frog does Propose Flaminius of the Progressives as the new PontMax!

Votes can be in any order. Progressives and Plutocrats have both already voted.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on March 09, 2019, 12:11:11 PM
yes.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 09, 2019, 12:55:59 PM
14 Plutocrats + 5 Progressives + 32 Populists = 51 votes. Not quite a majority, thanks to the possibility of the Conservatives voting activist against it, but close. Any other Player vote will be a majority.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on March 09, 2019, 02:06:46 PM
Sure, I'll vote for.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 09, 2019, 02:46:54 PM
I.I. agrees to put it over the top. Flam's Influence goes up 5 points from 4 to 9; total Influence up to 21.

Third Mandatory Business: Dictator appointment. Tripoli and the Frog already agree on appointing Scipio Africanus of the Aristocrats as Dictator. His Inf goes up 7 points from 23 to 30; Total Influence up to 77. Still not enough for Aristocrat special activist voting though, even with the extra influence point to be farmed. (I.I. should tell me where, Valerius or Quinctius.)

Scipio (and thus I.I.) take over Presiding Magistrate duties.

Fourth Mandatory Business: Master of Ships/Horses. This is purely an appointment decision by I.I., but naturally will be informed by the final combat plan.

Fifth Mandatory Business: Censor elections. Currently Cato the Populist Elder. ;) He can be re-elected; other valid candidates (in Rome, prior Consul, and not already a major Office other than Master of Horse) are Junius (Populist); Quinctius (Aristocrat); Aelius and Manlius (Militarists); Fulvius (Plutocrats); plus Aemilius Paullus, and Furius (Conservatives).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on March 09, 2019, 03:48:20 PM
Flaminius grants a priesthood to Plautius.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 09, 2019, 04:21:12 PM
Heh, I figured that would happen immediately, but I didn't have instructions so I didn't just do it.

Plautius +1 influence from 12 to 13; faction total to 22.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on March 09, 2019, 04:57:53 PM
Scipio will take Manlius as his Magister Equitum (there's militarily no reason not to choose the senator with the highest MIL, right?). Extra influence to Quinctius.

Did we come to a consensus as to whom we will elect as Censor and how we plan to attack the Punic War? I'm still in favour of something similar to the arrangement Erax proposed previously:

Quote from: Erax on February 28, 2019, 05:35:50 PM
My proposal is definitely for option 2, board the legions on the fleets and send everything under Scipio, who voids the war's D/S results for the naval battle and the land battle. We should have enough surplus fleets that we can lose a few without taking any legion losses before they even land.

Regarding Consuls, I suggest:

Scipio for Dictator.
A Militarist MoH, either Julius or Manlius.
A Plutocrat Rome Consul.
A Populist Field Consul.
A Conservative Censor (who agrees not to prosecute)
And Pontifex back to the Progressives.

That way every faction gets something.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 09, 2019, 06:34:35 PM
Yep, militarily no reason not to choose the senator with the highest Mil. (Politically it might be another story!

Scipio picks Manlius as Magister; Inf up 3 from 31 to 34; total Militarist Inf up 3 to 92. (Quinctius for the extra Aristo influence point, up 1 to 23; total to 78.)

Note that I accidentally gave Julius' Consul Influence to the Militarist votes instead of to total Influence! This has been fixed now.  O:-) Vote total is back to 20, total influence properly up to 92.

No one really had a consensus about the Censor election, but no one ever signed a Contract either -- including promising no prosecutions this Turn!
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on March 09, 2019, 07:57:56 PM
While there was no agreement to not prosecute, we all need to be hanging together right now.  After all, March 15 is almost a week away  >:D  Seriously, stopping Hannibal and the Carthaginians is going to be an "all hands on deck" evolution.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 10, 2019, 12:03:14 AM
Not to distract from the Censor consideration, but y'all should also be planning how much to spend on Raising units.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on March 10, 2019, 05:09:08 AM
The conservatives and the populists have nothing so far. I don't have my notes here, who are their prior consuls?
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on March 10, 2019, 05:15:21 AM
IMHO, we need to maximize our chance of winning the naval war.  We cant do anything until the Carthaginian navy is sunk.  We have enough legions (I believe we currently have 17, four of whom are veteran-is that correct?) to be able to beat the Carthaginizns.  What we need are fleets. (I can do an analysis later tonight, after 8 PM CST of the combat odds)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on March 10, 2019, 09:16:27 AM
Quote from: Erax on February 26, 2019, 07:56:58 PM
The good news is, we don't have any other wars to deal with. We are at 12 fleets, 17 legions.

I suggest we go all out, raise 10 fleets. Then we appoint Scipio Dictator with a high-mil MoH and send him with everything vs. the First Punic War.

Naval combat: 22 - 13 - 2 (omens) = +7 plus whatever MIL we can summon.

Land combat: 17 + 5 (vets) - 13 - 2 = +7 plus MIL too.

Having 5 more fleets than legions should give us a buffer to avoid losing legions in the naval battle.

Oh, and appoint a Plutocrat Consul so we don't go bankrupt from some random event next turn.

This was my proposal from a while back, it gives equal odds for the sea and land battles.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 10, 2019, 09:49:04 AM
Quote from: Erax on March 10, 2019, 05:09:08 AM
The conservatives and the populists have nothing so far. I don't have my notes here, who are their prior consuls?

Currently Cato the Populist Elder is Censor. He can be re-elected; other valid candidates (in Rome, prior Consul, and not already a major Office other than Master of Horse) are Junius (Populist); Quinctius (Aristocrat); Aelius and Manlius (Militarists, Manny being the MoH); Fulvius (Plutocrats); plus Aemilius Paullus (Dictator last Turn), and Furius (Conservatives).

So, on the theory that the Censor should come from the Conservatives or the Populists, I've bolded their valid senators.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on March 10, 2019, 02:49:52 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on March 10, 2019, 09:49:04 AM
Quote from: Erax on March 10, 2019, 05:09:08 AM
The conservatives and the populists have nothing so far. I don't have my notes here, who are their prior consuls?

Currently Cato the Populist Elder is Censor. He can be re-elected; other valid candidates (in Rome, prior Consul, and not already a major Office other than Master of Horse) are Junius (Populist); Quinctius (Aristocrat); Aelius and Manlius (Militarists, Manny being the MoH); Fulvius (Plutocrats); plus Aemilius Paullus (Dictator last Turn), and Furius (Conservatives).

So, on the theory that the Censor should come from the Conservatives or the Populists, I've bolded their valid senators.

Okay, seeing as the Populists held the office last turn, I'll nominate Furius on the condition that he does not prosecute.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on March 11, 2019, 11:44:04 AM
Quote from: Erax on March 10, 2019, 09:16:27 AM
Quote from: Erax on February 26, 2019, 07:56:58 PM
The good news is, we don't have any other wars to deal with. We are at 12 fleets, 17 legions.

I suggest we go all out, raise 10 fleets. Then we appoint Scipio Dictator with a high-mil MoH and send him with everything vs. the First Punic War.

Naval combat: 22 - 13 - 2 (omens) = +7 plus whatever MIL we can summon.

Land combat: 17 + 5 (vets) - 13 - 2 = +7 plus MIL too.

Having 5 more fleets than legions should give us a buffer to avoid losing legions in the naval battle.

Oh, and appoint a Plutocrat Consul so we don't go bankrupt from some random event next turn.

This was my proposal from a while back, it gives equal odds for the sea and land battles.

Assuming we use this, and Scipo and Manlius as Dictator and MoH we get the following:
Naval: (22 (Roman Naval) + 5 (Scipo mil) + 9 (Manlius mil)- 2 (omens))- (( 10(Carthiginan Naval)-3 (Hamilcar)) = +21= Automatic victory with no losses, EXCEPT a disaster on a roll of 8, or a stalemate on a roll of  12 due to Hamilcar's abilities, which Scipo can not negate (Rule 1.10.31 and 1.07.343).   This means there is an inherent 9.72% chance of a disaster, and a 11.57% chance of a standoff in the naval engagement.   

Jason-Did I miss anything in my calculations?
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 11, 2019, 05:26:56 PM
Those calcs seem valid.

Don't forget, there's a Censor vote on the table! -- AzTank votes FOR, by the way. That's 12 + I.I.'s 14 = net +26 so far.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on March 11, 2019, 10:09:35 PM
I'll vote for, as I understand the condition is that he will not do any prosecutions this turn
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 12, 2019, 09:33:51 AM
AzTank says he understands about no prosecutions.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 12, 2019, 04:24:11 PM
Tripoli's Militarists add 20 votes for Furius as Censor, so that's net +46 votes so far.

As things currently stand, Erax's Progressive vote won't swing the result one way or another, so if you want to oppose out of Progressive special ability political benefit you can do so. ;)

If Malize or the Frog agree on Furius for Censor, that will be the majority.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on March 12, 2019, 06:04:44 PM
I'll wait for the vote to be decided (hopefully in favor), then I'll oppose to farm Influence.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 12, 2019, 06:31:37 PM
Heh heh heh.  >:D

The Frog is glad to support AzTank's Furius for Censor, so that puts the vote over the majority.

I'll process your Influence farming and the technical results soon.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 12, 2019, 06:51:12 PM
Furius as the new Censor, goes up 5 Influence from 9 to 14, total influence up from 27 to 32.

Each of Erax's Progressive senators have at least (currently only) one knight, so their activist vote (of 7 instead of 5) earns each senator 1 Influence per Progressive special ability. Total influence up from 22 to 24; Flam up from 9 to 10; Plaut up from 13 to 14.

Furius briefly takes over as Presiding Magistrate, but presumably announces no Prosecutions this Turn. (I say "presumably" because no contract was signed by AzTank. He is entirely capable of calling as many Prosecutions as legally possible, and if he backslides on his promise I'll go back to process that! Otherwise for expediency I'm proceeding according to his stated intention.)

PM duties shift back to Dictator Scipio. Final Mandatory Business is assigning Governors to Provinces, but a Governor is already assigned to the (currently) only Province. Unless I.I. decides to Propose assigning Gallia Cisalpina a new Governor, this ends all Mandatory Business.

Other Business may now be Proposed and voted on (such as Raising units, and Deploying Forces with Commanders).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on March 12, 2019, 11:23:55 PM
no prosecutions
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on March 13, 2019, 09:51:31 AM
Quote from: Erax on March 10, 2019, 09:16:27 AM
Quote from: Erax on February 26, 2019, 07:56:58 PM
The good news is, we don't have any other wars to deal with. We are at 12 fleets, 17 legions.

I suggest we go all out, raise 10 fleets. Then we appoint Scipio Dictator with a high-mil MoH and send him with everything vs. the First Punic War.

Naval combat: 22 - 13 - 2 (omens) = +7 plus whatever MIL we can summon.

Land combat: 17 + 5 (vets) - 13 - 2 = +7 plus MIL too.

Having 5 more fleets than legions should give us a buffer to avoid losing legions in the naval battle.

Oh, and appoint a Plutocrat Consul so we don't go bankrupt from some random event next turn.

This was my proposal from a while back, it gives equal odds for the sea and land battles.

If nobody objects or has other business to propose I intend to do as Erax suggested above.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on March 14, 2019, 02:53:24 PM
Quote from: IncompetentIdiot on March 13, 2019, 09:51:31 AM
Quote from: Erax on March 10, 2019, 09:16:27 AM
Quote from: Erax on February 26, 2019, 07:56:58 PM
The good news is, we don't have any other wars to deal with. We are at 12 fleets, 17 legions.

I suggest we go all out, raise 10 fleets. Then we appoint Scipio Dictator with a high-mil MoH and send him with everything vs. the First Punic War.

Naval combat: 22 - 13 - 2 (omens) = +7 plus whatever MIL we can summon.

Land combat: 17 + 5 (vets) - 13 - 2 = +7 plus MIL too.

Having 5 more fleets than legions should give us a buffer to avoid losing legions in the naval battle.

Oh, and appoint a Plutocrat Consul so we don't go bankrupt from some random event next turn.

This was my proposal from a while back, it gives equal odds for the sea and land battles.

If nobody objects or has other business to propose I intend to do as Erax suggested above.
Seeing as nobody has protested, I'll go ahead and formally propose that we 1) raise 10 fleets and 2) send all 22 fleets and 17 legions with Scipio and Manlius to fight the First Punic War.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 14, 2019, 04:12:00 PM
Strictly speaking, I.I. is proposing a voting Contract for Players to agree to, since those Proposals are of different kinds.

Once a (voting) majority agrees to the Contract, I'll start processing it automatically with votes as contracted. Since the Proposals will be made by a Dictator, there can be no vetoing.

Note that once the Dictator Deploys, as Proposed in the Contract, the Senate will be closed and we'll move into the Combat Phase automatically for resolution.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on March 14, 2019, 09:32:31 PM
Militarists vote for the proposal to raise the fleets and legions.  However, recommend we do not make the deployment until after All Senate business and voting is concluded
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 14, 2019, 10:22:55 PM
Currently that won't be a problem; but if you've got other "Other Business" to Propose, aside from Raising Fleets and Deploying the Force with the Scip/Manny team (Julius is a Consul this turn I think), then you'd better let people (or at least me ;) ) know before Scipio leaves the Senate!
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on March 14, 2019, 11:08:45 PM
Voting for
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on March 15, 2019, 06:06:30 AM
We vote for both.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 15, 2019, 06:36:38 PM
With I.I.'s Aristocrats (naturally), Tripoli's Militarists, Erax's Progressives, and Malize's Populists all signing onto the Contract to vote For the Proposals, this is a Contractual Majority, and the Contract will be processed and fulfilled automatically. Since Scipio, the Presiding Magistrate, is a Dictator, there can be no vetos for these Proposals (although I don't think any of the Players want to veto the plan anyway -- I'm just accounting for the rules as I go. O:-) )

First, then: Raise 10 Fleets, cost 10 units x 10 Talents = 100 Talents, down from 137 to 37. This restores the Navy to the 1st through 22nd Fleets.

Second, Scipio and Manlius Deploy with all Active units (22 Fleets, 12 regular Legions, and 5 Veteran Legions) against the 1st Punic War. Aristocrat normal vote tally goes down to 6 (for Quinctius still in Rome). Militarist normal vote tally goes down to 12.

With the Presiding Magistrate leaving Rome, the Senate automatically closes. The highest ranking available officer is currently Roman Consul Claudius of the Plutocrats.

This ends the Senate Phase.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 15, 2019, 08:16:07 PM
TURN TWELVE -- COMBAT PHASE
---------------------------

Arguably the most clutch battle in the game so far:

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/5149/83sksT.jpg)

Dictator Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus of the Conservatives, and his Magister Viribus Manlius, Faction Leader of the Militarists, versus Hamilcar and the First Punic War!

The Romans are bringing the 1st through 22nd Fleets for their Navy; the 1st through 3rd, and 10th and 11th, Seasoned Veteran Legions; and then the 4th through 7th, the 9th, the 12th through 16th, and the 19th and 20th Legions. (phew!)

The Legions are being transported by the Combat Fleet in order to attempt a Land Battle under Scipio and Manlius. Consequently, the Fleet is leading with the 18th through 22nd Fleets, with the first 17 Fleets each responsible for transporting and protecting a Legion (Fleets 1st through 5th bringing the five Veterans.)

First, the Naval Battle! Preparations:
Roman Navy Fleets: 22
Scipio's Mil: +5 (all used)
Manlius' Mil: +9 (including Militarist knight headquarters ability, all used)
1st Punic War Base Naval Strength: -10
Hamilcar's Mil Skill: -3
Evil Omens: -2
Die Roll Modifier thus 22 +5 +9 -10 -3 -2 = +21! This is complete overkill, guaranteeing a Naval Victory with no losses, if Rome passes the random D/S roll. Scipio's special ability nullifies the D13, and S11/14 results normal to the 1st Punic, but Hamilcar's D8 and S12 remain.

If the 3d6 roll totals 8 or 12, the War will continue with some level of massive casualties for Rome. If anything else, Rome wins the Naval War permanently, no losses.

(At this point I became completely distracted for more than an hour, trying to find and use the great dice-rolling tool used by Cyrano in his TTS games! Having found it, but having learned that it does not like rolling custom dice, such as the nice bone and Roman numerals I found in the mod, I fixed the problem and continued.)

The dice roller throws 1+4+5 = 10, which isn't a D/S result! 10 would normally be a Stalemate with 3 Fleets lost, possibly also some Legions in this case; but +21 is an automatic no loss Victory! (

Naval Victory over the 1st Punic War! Punic Fleet is permanently Defeated. Unrest -1 from 2 to 1. No Fleet or Legion casualties to Force Pool. Fleets never level up to Veteran.

Scipio's Inf and Pop each go up by the War's Base Naval Strength 10 / 2 = +5, from 30 to 35, and from 3 to 8, respectively. (This generates an extra Influence point per the Aristocrat special ability, for I.I. to distribute to Quinc or to Val, who have 25 and 23 already.) Total Aristo Inf goes up 5 to 83. No Popularity lost, due to no casualties; similarly no Mortality chits drawn. Master of Forces never gains Inf or Pop from Victory.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 15, 2019, 08:47:15 PM
Plenty more than 5 Fleets remain for the Supply line, so the Army lands and prepares to attack immediately under the same Force Commander team. To recap the War:

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/5149/83sksT.jpg)

(This is just the prior pre-war photo, since there were no casualties. Just pretend there's a Naval Victory marker, and that Scipio's stats have been increased.)

Total number of all Legions: 17
Total Veteran Legions: +5
Scipio's Mil: +5
Manlius' Mil: +3 +6 knights (Militarist ability)
War's base Land Strength: -10
Hamilcar's Mil: -3
Evil Omens: -2
DRM = 17+5+5+3+6-10-3-2 = +21 (again, coincidentally). Scipio nerfs the War's D13 and S11/14 results again, but Hamilcar's D8 and S12 remain.

3d6 is 2+5+6 = 13! -- edged past an automatic Standoff result! Normally a 13 would be a no-loss Stalemate, but +21 is an automatic no-loss Victory!

Unrest -1 to 0. Rome gains this War's 35 Spoils, up from 37 to 72. Two new (undeveloped) Provinces are added to Rome: (the island of) Sicilia, and (the islands of) Sardinia et Corsica. Governors will need to be voted for them next Turn! Hamilcar retreats to the Curia to brood, preparing to join the next Punic War already on the way next Turn -- but the 1st Punic War is now permanently Discarded!

Scipio as the Commander (not Manlius as Magister) gains half the War's printed Land Strength of 10/2 = +5 (again) to Inf and to Pop, up from 35 to 40 and from 8 to (the Pop maximum) 9. Total Inf goes up 5 from 83 to 88. (The Aristocrat special ability generates a second extra Inf point for I.I. to distribute to either Quinc or Val, now 2 point total to distribute in part or together.) No casualties, so no loss of Popularity and no chits pulled from the Death Bag. The oldest surviving regular Legion in this War is the 4th, and it becomes a Veteran! Scipio earns its Loyalty chit.

Manlius sails back to Rome immediately, his duty done as Master of Forces. Militarist vote tally goes back up 2 + 6 knights from 12 to 20.

Scipio sails back to Rome with the Victorious Navy and Army.

This ends the Combat Phase.

Congratulations to the Players for working together to navigate the Republic through this dangerous trial!  :clap:
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 15, 2019, 09:11:57 PM
TURN TWELVE -- REVOLUTION PHASE
-------------------------------

Players can donate or trade Intrigue cards for a little while with automatic arrival.

No one needs to discard down to 5 or less cards.

Some Players do have playable Intrigue cards this Phase, and I have alerted them already by p-mail. If you didn't get a p-mail, you didn't have a playable card (perhaps yet). If playable cards are traded, I'll allow a little lag time for being able to play them immediately (assuming they still can be). By the nature of such cards (Concessions and/or Statesmen), I'll need to know distributions before I continue on into the Mortality and Revenue Phases starting Turn 13!

Scipio is sailing and marching back to Rome with his Victorious Navy and Army. I.I. must decide (1) whether to retire the newly Vet 4th Legion; and (2) whether to try Rebelling against the Senate, or to hand back the Legions and Fleets to the Republic. I'll need to know before I continue into the new Turn. (You can also test the allegiance of any or all Legions for free, to see who would follow you, but this will have to be done publicly even though not an actual Rebellion yet.)

Once these choices are settled, this will end Turn Twelve.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on March 16, 2019, 04:54:13 AM
I play my concession to Flaminius.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on March 16, 2019, 07:36:14 AM
No revolt; both influence points to Quinctius.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on March 16, 2019, 01:43:25 PM
I'll play arms concession on Aurelius
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on March 16, 2019, 02:40:19 PM
Grain concession to Paulus
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 16, 2019, 10:44:42 PM
I can vouch that this is everyone with card plays, so this finishes out the Revolt Phase, but I'll need to wait until tomorrow morning to process.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 17, 2019, 12:31:59 PM
I.I. declines to revolt, sending all his units back to the Active Pool, including the newly Vet 4th Legion.

I.I. gives both of the Aristocratic special ability extra Influence points to Quinctius, up from 25 to 27; total up from 88 to 90.

Clockwise around the table, AzTank grants the Sicilian Grain Concession to Paullus Macedonicus.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/5347/b5hudv.jpg)

This gives the Conservatives, through Paullus, an extra 4 cash during the Revenue Phase (with the usual Minor Suspicion), plus an option to reduce 2 Popularity during Droughts for double the income, which can be further multiplied for each additional Drought level!

Malize grants the Arms Concession to Aurelius.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/6779/13P8Z1.jpg)

This is the first Concession in play which doesn't trigger during the Revenue Phase! Instead, it automatically triggers (with the usual Minor Suspicion) whenever the Senate Raises Legions, giving 2 Talents to Aurelius for each Legion. (This doesn't mean Legions now cost 12, only that Aurelius receives 2 of each 10 Talents that would normally go to the bank.)

Relatedly, Erax gives Plautius, who already has two Tax Farming Concessions, the Ship Building Concession!

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/5581/cvefYH.jpg)

This similarly generates 3 Talents for Plautius, immediately received (with the usual Minor Suspicion), off each Fleet Raised by the Senate!

This ends the Revolution Phase, and also ends Turn Twelve.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 17, 2019, 01:00:59 PM
TURN THIRTEEN -- MORTALITY PHASE
--------------------------------

Congratulations to the Players, for keeping the Republic alive into the 13th Turn!

There is a strong but not certain probability that we will enter the Middle Provincial Era this Turn; and if not this turn, then surely next Turn. But first, the usual preliminary phases.

The Immanent 2nd Punic War goes Active, and Hamilcar returns immediately from his plotting in the Curia pile to lead it:

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/7198/lx5IsN.jpg)

This is the first War to threaten the Roman heartland, and thus to risk destroying Tax Farming Concessions! It is also the first War in this game to attack a Roman Province, Cisalpine Gaul under the current circumstances, although this won't happen until the Combat Phase, and can be forestalled by being attacked by a Deployed Force. This is a stronger War than the 1st Punic, and won't gain as many Spoils for Victory, and it still needs several Fleets assigned for Supply to attack it; but you won't have to Defeat a Navy first. Like the 1st Punic, you'll gain two whole Provinces for Defeating it (basically two halves of Spain)! -- but also like the 1st Punic, it threatens three inherent D/S results (plus Hamilcar's two previous D/S results, which cannot be avoided).

The 1st Illyrian War remains Inactive for now.

To the Death Bag! -- after a vigorous shuffle, we pull....

...family #5, the Claudians again! Tragedy strikes for the Plutocrats once more! The Claudian family rushes a new scion into the Senate again, to retain Faction Leadership of the Plutocrats, but he's untrained and so loses all chits, including the Roman Consulship! Total Influence goes back down 5 to 25. Vote Tally goes back down 2 to 12.

The Death Bag continues to be increasingly lethal to Player hopes and dreams... (and to the combined strength of the Republic to survive!)

This ends the Mortality Phase; my condolences to the Frog.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 17, 2019, 01:42:37 PM
TURN THIRTEEN -- REVENUE PHASE
------------------------------

Segment one of the Revenue Phase, the Faction Incomes!

I.I.s Aristocrats: 4 starting cash; +8 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator incomes; +4+4+3 knight incomes; +2+2 Tax Farming; +3 Harbor Fees;
= new Faction Total 35 Talents. (Note: the normal vote tally here should be 14, not 6, now that Scipio has returned to Rome. This will be fixed in the pre-Senate snapshot.)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/7357/wzuKuu.jpg)


Tripoli's Militarists: 0 starting cash; +0 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator incomes; +5+6 knight incomes; +2+2 tax Farming;
= new Faction Total 20 Talents.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/5556/uiG3Bt.jpg)


The Frog's Plutocrats: 0 starting cash; 0 personal cash; +5+1+1 senator incomes (Plutocrat special ability); (+3+2)x2 knight incomes (Plutocrat special ability); +1 priest income;
= new Faction total 18 Talents.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/4528/KFeKVw.jpg)


AzTank's Conservatives: 30 starting cash; +16 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator incomes; +1+1+2 knight incomes; +1 priest incomes; +4 Sicilian Grain
= new Faction total 60 Talents! (Plus, optionally, another 4 Talents from the Grain Concession due to the ongoing Illyrian Drought Effect, if AzTank agrees to sacrifice 2 of Paullus' 5 Pop points.)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/5352/ic9sYT.jpg)
(Note: AzTank declared he would sacrifice the Pop for 4 more Talents, now updated in the snapshot.)


Malize's Populists: 3 starting cash; +1 personal cash; +3+1+1+1 senator incomes; +1+2+1+2 knight incomes; +3 Mining Concession (Armaments trigger later);
= new Faction total 16 Talents.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/3135/92KO2F.jpg)


Erax's Progressives: 1 starting cash; +6 personal cash; +3+1 senator incomes; +1+1 knight incomes; +1+1 priest incomes; 1d6 = +1 PontMax income (but minus 2 for lingering Evil Omens = 0!); + 2 +2 Tax Farming (Ship Building triggers later)
= new Faction total 19 Talents. (Photo shows 17, because I forgot to include the second Tax Farmer.)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/1520/BthtX5.jpg)

Currently the Republic has 42 Talents. Expected incomes and expenses are +100 normal income; + some random amount of Provincial income (adjusted down for Evil Omens, and negated entirely for Cisaplina Gaul due to an Active War threatening it); -20 for the Active 2nd Punic War; -2x39 Active unit upkeep = 44 Talents.

Players must now give me distribution instructions, including whether any donations will be made to the Republic by your senator(s).

AzTank must declare whether Paullus will sacrifice 2 of his 5 Popularity to exploit the Illyrian Drought effect for an extra 4 Talents from Sicilian Grain.

I.I. would normally declare now whether Valerius will try to milk some Provincial Spoils from Cisaplina Gaul, but there can be no income from that Province while it's under Attack. The prior Corruption from last turn, however, now discards.

Players should also be looking ahead as usual to the Forum Phase, and let me know if you have any plans you want to lock in ahead of time (for Persuasion, Sponsoring Games, and/or changing your Faction Leader.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on March 17, 2019, 03:26:31 PM
Just a quick note, my concession was played on Flaminius, check my post. I don't want too many eggs in one basket.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 17, 2019, 05:23:16 PM
Ah, for goodness sake, why I did I even think that was Plautius!? {sigh}

For purposes of Revenue, it won't make any difference, but I'll make the adjustment promptly.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on March 18, 2019, 02:27:57 PM
Could we get our full boards?  Read and myself ?
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 18, 2019, 02:59:12 PM
Oh crap?! How did that happen??

I entered the wrong img codes apparently. Not sure how that happened. I'll fix it this afternoon, within the hour I hope.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 18, 2019, 04:48:55 PM
Okay, proper snapshot code for the Populists has been replaced.

New snapshot for Progressives showing that Flaminius has the new Ship Building Concession.

Conservative snapshot updated with AzTank's declaration (by hangout chat) that Paullus would sacrifice 2 Pop (down from 5 to 3) for an extra 4 Talents of income from Sicilian Grain (thanks to the Drought).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 18, 2019, 08:32:07 PM
Per the Frog: "All to Claudius who will get a Knight and do the most expensive games he can." That will be during the Forum Phase.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on March 18, 2019, 09:42:06 PM
Thx Jason.

15 to Fabius, he will spend 5 on knight and donate 10 to the republic
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on March 19, 2019, 10:14:58 AM
5 to Aelius, who buys a knight.  10 to Aelius, who donates it for 1 influence, and 5 to faction cash
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on March 19, 2019, 06:00:12 PM
10 each for influence to Scipio and Quinctius (extra influence to each other). Another 10 to Scipio.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on March 20, 2019, 08:10:46 AM
10 to each of the guys. Paullus will spend 5 for a knight. Terentius will donate 10 for influence
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on March 20, 2019, 12:58:11 PM
I have 2 tax farming, so my total is 19 talents, all of which go on Plautius.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 20, 2019, 01:58:54 PM
Yep! -- and I can see what happened: I saw two Tax Farmings, and neurons went 'blop' and crossed two goals in my head, accounting for two tax farmings, and adding their income which for each of them was 2. Result? +2 Tax Farming.  :hide:

What's sadder is that I did this correctly for Tripoli who also has two Tax Farmers (but not on the same guy).  #:-)

Lord... anyway, yes, 19 Talents, and I think that finishes everyone's distributions, so I'll process this afternoon, starting in about 2 hours I expect.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 20, 2019, 04:47:07 PM
Erax's 19 Talents updated (also in my game notes).

I.I. gives 20 to Scipio and 10 to Quincy, keeping 5 cash (35-20-10). Each donates 10 for 1 Inf, and give the extra Inf generated (by Aristo special ability) to each other. Scipio keeps 10 cash and goes up from 35 to 37 Inf. Quinctius goes up from 27 to 29. Aristo total goes up 4 from 90 to 94. The Aristocrats take the Influence lead again, triggering their activist votes! Republic Treasury goes up 20 Talents from 42 to 62. No further instructions yet for the Forum Phase.

Tripoli keeps 5 of his 20 cash, giving 15 to Aelius: 5 to buy an automatic knight later, and 10 to donate to the Republic now for 1 Inf. Aelius Inf goes up from 27 to 28; Militarist total from 92 to 93. Aristos remain Influence leader for now! Republic cash goes up from 62 to 72.

The Frog gives all 18 cash to the new Claudian senator, to buy a knight and to sponsor the best games he can later.

AzTank gives 10 to each senator, keeping 34. Terentius donates his 10 for 1 point of Influence (from 1 to 2, total from 32 to 33). Paullus will buy an automatic knight with 5 later. Republic cash up from 72 to 82.

Malize gives 15 (keeping 1) to Fabius Maximus who donates 10 to the Republic immediately for 1 Inf (up from 3 to 4; total up from 29 to 30), and reserves 5 for an automatic knight later. Republic cash up from 82 to 92.

Erax gives all 19 Talents to Plautius, no instructions for the Forum Phase yet.

Val's province being attacked, means no local taxes for raising further militia, so no choices possible there.

3rd segment, Republic Income! 92 starting cash; +100 standard income; +0 State taxes (all Provinces under attack or not yet Governed); -20 for Active 2nd Punic War; -0 no Land Bills; -2x29 Active units (Fleets and Legions)
= new Republic cash 94 Talents.

1 Turn remains for Val's Governance of Cisalpina Gaul.

This ends the Revenue Phase.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on March 20, 2019, 04:48:43 PM
Oops, all money to Flaminius, he's the PontMax now, sorry! He spends 5 on a knight.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 20, 2019, 05:16:37 PM
Retcon'd Progressive cash distribution to PontMax Flam.  O:-)

TURN THIRTEEN -- FORUM PHASE
----------------------------

The Evil Omens disperse at the start of the phase! -- but the Drought of the Illyrian War remains.

14 Scenarios remain in the Early Provincial Deck. This means we have a very good chance of entering the next Era during this Forum Phase! -- but a 0% chance now.

I.I.'s Aristocrats roll 5+6, and so he draws a Scenario card: the 19th politically active Family, the Aemilians! This card goes directly to AzTank's Conservatives, to support the Aemilian Statesman, Lucius Aemilius Paullus Macedonicus. Thanks to a Conservative special ability, Paullus' chits and cards will be inherited by his Family's trained successor after he dies. (Until now this wasn't secured because Family #19 wasn't active yet, but AzTank was gambling that #19 would be drawn before Macedonicus died. Other Factions lack this ability!)

Back to I.I., I don't have further instructions from him yet, but someone should at least try for another knight: either Africanus (3 knights), who has 10 personal cash and could buy an automatic knight with 5 or at least bolster his chancse; or Val or Qunicy (4 knights each), who even without sacrificing cash have the natural minimum 1 in 6 chance.

I.I. could Sponsor Games (with Scipio, but only level 1), or shift his Faction Leader (from Quincy), or try to Persuade a senator (presumably with Scipio). But only Persuading a senator will affect other Players, and Scipio has the best chance which isn't great (at best! -- impossible for most targets).

So I'll provisionally move on around the table. :)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 20, 2019, 05:29:45 PM
Tripoli's Militarists roll... 6+2, so he draws a Scenario card, which will be the final card certain to still be Early Era.

Hannibal has arrived in Italy.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/6456/COXxw6.jpg)

:timeout: :hide:

This adds a second 1 in 6 risk roll to the destruction of each Tax Farming Concession, oh and also another +7 to the War's basic strength, plus 9 and 16 to the automatic D/S results. (8,9,10,11,12,15 and 16 now!)

Aelius will spend all 5 of his cash Persuading an automatic 1st knight. His Mil goes up from 3 to 4. Vote tally up from 20 to 21.

With no further instructions, I'll continue around the table.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 20, 2019, 05:45:13 PM
The Frog's Plutocrats roll 3+2, which is a Scenario draw. There is now a 6/12 = 50% chance of staying in the Early Era...

Huh. Well, it's still the Early Era. This is our first publicly available Concession of the game! (I'll show it in the Forum along with other effects and Sulpy in case anyone wants a reminder of how tough he is now to Persuade. ;) Left-click to embiggen and see the cards more clearly with some scrolling.)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/3/bRKFN4.jpg)

This Concession grants 3 Talents of extra senatorial income per Turn, during the Revenue Phase (as usual), and unlike most Concessions it cannot be destroyed. However, if no Land Bill is in effect at the end of the Forum Phase (which means a Level 2 or 3 Bill) -- which there won't be, so no reason to even give it to the Frog -- then this Concession immediately returns to the Forum, where it can be voted upon for giving to a Faction.

Pre previous instructions, Claudius spends 5 of his 18 Talents buying his first knight (vote tally up to 13), and then sacrifices his remaining 13 cash to Sponsor Blood Fest Games. His Popularity goes up from 0 to 2. (Unrest is already at 0.) Unless the Frog wants to change his Faction Leadership to someone other than Claudius, this ends his Forum round.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 20, 2019, 06:02:55 PM
AzTank's Conservatives roll 6+3, and he draws a Scenario. There is now a 45.45% chance of remaining in the Early Era... but it's a red-text Faction card, face down to his hand. I'll p-mail him about it.

AzTank's Paullus buys an automatic 2nd knight with 5 (vote tally up to 13). He doesn't have enough Persuasion power to go after anyone, so unless Furius is planning to Sponsor Level 1 Games, and/or AzTank wants to shift his Faction Leader to someone other than Furius, this ends his round.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 20, 2019, 06:13:16 PM
Malize's Populists roll 4+1, which is a scenario card. The previous card's Era is unknown (except to me and AzTank), but there might be a 6/10 = 60% chance of entering the Middle Era... it's Faction card, too, sent face-down to his hand, which now has 3. I've p-mailed him the information.

Fabius Maximus spends 5 for an automatic 2nd knight, Populist vote tally up from 32 to 33. Unless Malize wants to give Faction Leadership to someone other than Cato, this ends his Forum round.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 20, 2019, 06:29:44 PM
I just realized that I started around the table with I.I., but I should have started with Tripoli! -- I.I. should be last! Fortunately on this Turn it hasn't mattered yet.

Erax's Progressives roll 3+1, which is a Scenario: no Random Events this Turn! Chances of going into the Middle Era are at least 6/9 = 66.67%... nope, it's also a red-text Faction card, now the 3rd for his hand face down. So we're still in the Early Eara going into the Population and Senate Phases! WOO HOO, NO 3RD PUNIC WAR YET!!

PontMax Flaminius spends 5 (of his 19) on a 2nd knight. Normal vote tally up from 5 to 6.

Erax cannot feasibly try to Persuade any Player's senator I think, and impossible for him (currently) to Persuade Sulpy. So unless he wants to change his Faction Leader, or buy 1 or 2 Popularity by spending 7 or 13 cash to Sponsor Games, this ends Erax's Forum round.

Keeping in mind some possible lag effects (not least which senator I.I. wants to try for a knight!), this ends the Forum Phase!
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on March 20, 2019, 06:41:58 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on March 20, 2019, 05:16:37 PM
Back to I.I., I don't have further instructions from him yet, but someone should at least try for another knight: either Africanus (3 knights), who has 10 personal cash and could buy an automatic knight with 5 or at least bolster his chancse; or Val or Qunicy (4 knights each), who even without sacrificing cash have the natural minimum 1 in 6 chance.

I.I. could Sponsor Games (with Scipio, but only level 1), or shift his Faction Leader (from Quincy), or try to Persuade a senator (presumably with Scipio). But only Persuading a senator will affect other Players, and Scipio has the best chance which isn't great (at best! -- impossible for most targets).

So I'll provisionally move on around the table. :)

5 for a knight to Scipio.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on March 20, 2019, 07:10:09 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on March 20, 2019, 05:29:45 PM


Hannibal has arrived in Italy.


This adds a second 1 in 6 risk roll to the destruction of each Tax Farming Concession, oh and also another +7 to the War's basic strength, plus 9 and 16 to the automatic D/S results. (8,9,10,11,12,15 and 16 now!)

A

Jason-You are adversely affecting my morale..... ;D
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 20, 2019, 07:11:56 PM
TURN THIRTEEN -- POPULATION PHASE
---------------------------------

Ah, wait, I was wrong about being wrong: Scipio is still Dictator, so he's the HRAO having returned to Rome from War, consequently I.I. did go first around the board for the Forum Phase.

Putting Rome in order...

All senators with an office of PontMax and above get Major Suspicion.

All Tax Farming Concessions are threatened by the 1st Punic War, and again by Hannibal as (co-)Leader! 1 in 6 destroys the Concession.

Rolls for I.I.'s two Tax Farms... #1 rolls 4 and then 6, safe. #5 rolls, ouch a 1 on the first roll: the 2nd Punic War destroys its first heartland area! Valerius loses its Minor Suspicion.

This is the first time a Concession has been destroyed. Concessions are never discarded out of the game (so far as I know...?) Instead Tax Farming 5 goes to the Curia to await random respawning. Once the land has returned to being taxably profitable, the Senate can vote on a Faction to manage it.

Now for Tripoli. Tax Farm #4 rolls 5 and 2, safe. Tax Farm #6 rolls 2 and, argh, 1! Manlius loses his Tax Farming (and also its Minor Suspicion); Hannibal realized the War had skipped messing with some land, and redirected it!

Erax's Plautius is managing the remaining two Tax Farms, and given Erax's terrible luck... 5 and 4 for Tax Farm #3, safe. 6 and 4 for Tax Farm #4, safe, phew.

Other Concessions can be destroyed by various things, but not by Hannibal and/or the 2nd Punic War.

Now it's time to check the Curia for respawns! -- including the newly destroyed Tax Farms! 5 or 6 wins... but the rolls are 1 and 2 for the two destroyed Concessions.

Same chances for the three languishing political families! -- but it's 2, 3, and 4 on the rolls, so they continue to fail to get a scion back into the Senate.

How about Philip the Fifth? Y'all have been unusually lucky about having your Enemy Leaders die off between Wars... and dang, your luck on that still holds! Philip rolls a 5, and dies before coming back to lead more Macedonian Wars. At +6, he was your strongest general so far, until Hannibal arrived: Press F to pay respects. :)

Unrest adjusts: no Unprosecuted Wars, but +1 (from 0 to 1) for the ongoing Illyrian Drought.

The current HRAO is Scipio with a maximum possible 9 Popularity, -1 Unrest, plus 3d6 of +2+3+4, ick a cruddy roll but his Popularity carries him through to an adjusted total of 17! -- subtract 2 Unrest, back down to 0. (You'd think having two significant areas of heartland LAID WASTE BY FOREIGN ARMIES DRAGGING UNEXPECTEDLY OVER THE ALPS would be worth some Unrest, but...!)

With that, the Senate Phase technically starts, but I've been doing this for 3 hours today so I'll wait until tomorrow afternoon to get the snapshots.

Some things to be pre-considering: you won't need to fight a Naval War, and you've got plenty of Fleets (22 out of 25 max) for the 5 Supply devotion. You've got 6 Veterans at Level 1 (Seasoned) defensive training, and another 11 Regular Legions Active. 8 more can be possibly raised before you reach Rome's logistic limit.

There are two new Undeveloped Provinces, Sicilia, and Sardina/Corsica, which must be provided Govenorship. They'll be immune to attack from any Wars currently on the board. If you don't stop the 2nd Punic this Turn, though, they will surely overrun Cisalpine Gaul (and probably kill or capture Valerius of the Aristocrats), capturing its base land strength for its own use!

First Mandatory Business will be for I.I. (through the Dictator Scipio) to Propose two new Consuls. Scipio himself and Field Consul Julius of the Militarists are excluded from consideration. (Roman Consul Claudius got whacked by the Death Bag at the start of the Turn, so that post is vacant; but the new Claudius can be Proposed.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 20, 2019, 07:13:52 PM
Scipio spends 5 of his 10 remaining cash to buy his 4th knight. Aristo normal vote tally up from 14 to 15.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 20, 2019, 07:15:02 PM
Quote from: Tripoli on March 20, 2019, 07:10:09 PM

Jason-You are adversely affecting my morale..... ;D

And indeed he personally zorched one of your Tax Farms!  >:D
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on March 20, 2019, 09:38:16 PM
What do you all think for this turn? It seems to me that we have the numbers to take on Carthaginians again, but is it worth the risk given the 65% chance of D/S?
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on March 21, 2019, 04:13:06 AM
Scipio's influence ended at 40 last turn, so it should be 40+2 after donations. Rome ended last turn at 72 talents, so we should have 72+50+100-20-78=124.

I'm still reading the forum phase stuff.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on March 21, 2019, 07:11:17 AM
Can Scipio be Dictator again? I don't have the rules here.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 21, 2019, 08:24:57 AM
Yes, Dictators can be re-appointed by the new Consuls. (Or re-voted in, if the Consuls can't agree.)

However, there's another technical issue I'll have to check on: for a Dictator to be valid, there has to be 3+ Wars Active (only one right now), or one of the Active Wars has to have enough combined basic land and naval strength by itself to trigger the option. I think that combination is 20, like the 1st Punic War (10 and 10). The base strength for this War is 15, and there is no Naval strength!

If Enemy Leaders are allowed to buff the trigger level, then you're good, but if not then there cannot be a Dictator this Turn.


I'll have to double-check the other things this afternoon, but Erax has usually or always been right so far!  :notworthy:
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on March 21, 2019, 01:24:15 PM
I got a copy of the rules and (pending JP's interpretation which could be different) it looks like we're out of luck, the war itself has to be over 20.

Let's assume 'no Scipio' for now, we have two options:

A) Let the Punic War wait for a turn and take out the Illyrians for a few spoils and a new veteran legion.

B) Attack Hannibal.

Pros for A: Victory is highly likely, we won't have to raise any legions, even if the 3rd Punic War shows up next turn we still get a turn's grace while it's Imminent, we get spoils and a veteran legion that'll help us next turn.
Pros for B: If we don't attack this turn, we only get one chance next turn before we get doubled wars. There's a lot that could go wrong between now and next turn to make the odds even worse.
Cons for A: If we don't attack the Punic War now we will lose the province and it'll add some strength to the war. And we could lose more tax farms. And we could have bad luck, get a D/S vs. the Illyrians and end up with another active war on our hands.
Cons for B: It's a huge gamble and likely to end in D/S no matter how many legions we send.

I could back either option, I don't see either one as superior. I'd like to hear everyone's opinions.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 21, 2019, 02:01:18 PM
Worth noting that we don't really know when the 3rd Punic is supposed to show up. Assuming it's Middle Era (which seems correct), it could be in the final 8 cards of this deck (and even without you knowing how many Early Era Faction cards got drawn to Player hands, you have to think there are only a few if any Early cards remaining now), or it could be anywhere in the Middle deck.

Of course, there are going to be punchy challenges cropping up in the Middle deck, too.

Conservatively you might plan for the risk to be immediate, but odds are just as good it's on the far side of the Middle rather than the start of the Era. (If it's in the Middle at all. It might be Late Era...!)


This might be a time to try a two-wave attack, to 'burn' a Disaster or Standoff result on the first attack (there can only be one of each of those per War per Turn) so that the second attack led by Scipio has a better chance of punching through.


I might also have to think about the spirit vs the letter of the rule, regarding a War's strength to trigger a Dictator. How could a War led by two skilled Enemies that's stomping the farmlands of Italy, NOT allow at least the possibility of a Dictator?? It's obviously more powerful than the 1st Punic War, even without factoring in Hannibal's arrival to help Hamilcar!
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 21, 2019, 04:10:09 PM
Okay, some good news! The April 18 Living Rules specify combined land and naval strength of 20 or more.

This is important because the rules do not specifically restrict this to the base strength, or what is printed on the card, which does happen in other cases. (Such as earning Pop and Inf for a Victory, if I recall correctly: a Commander gaining victory over a supported Matching War earns Inf/Pop based on the printed strength, not on multiplied strength, nor on modifiers such as overrun Province strengths, extra provincial militia, thus also not on beating an Enemy Leader and his strength. Doubtless this was restricted for game balancing purposes, so one Player's senator wouldn't warp ahead too far thanks to one Victory.)

On the other hand, the rules do explicitly state that a War's Land (and Naval) Strength can be modified by two methods. One is by the multiplication of support from a subsequent War already being Active, and there has never been any question that this would definitely bump the leading War's strength (of a Matching set of Wars) in such a way as to allow a Dictator.

The other way to modify a War's strengths is by the Enemy Leader's presence, which is treated just like increasing the strength through Matching multiplication (except it counts after the multiplication not before, like icing on top.)

Consequently! -- the 15 Land Strength is being increased by the skill of both Enemy Leaders, easily beyond the 20 limit needed for a Dictator!

<:-)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 21, 2019, 04:27:15 PM
Re: Scipio. Weird, I was sure I had updated his card up to 40 (from 35, after his win over the 1st Punic), but nope I hadn't! After I.I's little Influence ploy, he gains 2 to 42.

And yet, I did properly update the Aristocrat Influence to account for him earning 5 from the Victory. 94 is right. I must have forgotten to save something and then reloaded?  ??? Who knows how my neurons work anymore...

At first I thought I had done something similar with the Republic Treasury, and hadn't counted in the 35 Spoils of the War. But then I realized I was 30 off, not 35. Eventually tracing back through my notes, I decided at one point I was trying to type 72 on my keypad (rather than across the top of my keyboard) and fell short of the 7 hitting the 4 underneath it instead. Then instead of following along on the game board I took a reference back to 42 as the correct amount and proceeded from there.

So yes, confirmed, 124 Talents in the Treasury! Raising the 8 remaining potential Legions would require 80 of those Talents, or whatever less by proportion.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on March 21, 2019, 06:51:21 PM
Well that pretty much settles it.  We need Scipio as a dictator, with a militarist as MoH
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on March 21, 2019, 09:12:57 PM
Alright, how do you all suggest we divvy up the remaining offices? Whoever doesn't receive a consulship/censorship could receive the new concession.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on March 22, 2019, 07:53:22 AM
Here's my 'Turn 13 Something for Everyone' proposal (not in the sequence stuff will be voted on).

1. Raise the last eight legions.
2. Aristocrat Dictator.
2. Plutocrat RC, Progressive FC.
3. Militarist MoH + one province.
4. Conservative Censor (no prosecutions).
5. The Populists get a load of cash from their concession + one province.

The concession isn't worth giving right now, it'll despawn at the end of the turn because we don't have an active Land Bill.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 22, 2019, 09:13:54 AM
Note: I was incorrect last turn (and prior turns?) about the Master of Horse being appointed from literally anyone in Rome: I thought the idea was that anyone could be appointed to join the fight as MoH, and then come back to their normal Office, since win, lose, or draw, the MoH only acts that way for one Deployment and must come back home at the end of the Combat Phase. Consequently, since the MoH doesn't even function that way until late in Other Business (Deploying out with the Dictator), the Office can easily overlap with any other Office.

I still think that makes the most logical sense, but that isn't the official rule, as I discovered while looking through the question of whether the rules factor Enemy Leaders into allowing a Dictator for the Turn.

The official rule is that the MoH cannot have another Major Office except Censor, and he has to resign that if appointed by the Dictator. (Nor can he then be re-elected Censor the same turn: he already has a new Major Office.)

I'm certainly willing to house-rule on this, but I'll have to think about whether I should...

Anyway, putting Erax's suggestion in sequence:

1.) Dictator (I.I.) Proposes Plutocrat and Progressive Consuls. (No veto possible.)

2.) The Consuls (Erax and the Frog) agree Plutocrat RC, Progressive FC.

(No new PontMax needed this Turn.)

3.) The Consuls appoint an Aristocrat Dictator (specifically Scipio).

4.) The Dictator (I.I.) appoints a Militarist MoH.

5.) The Dictator Proposes a Conservative Censor.

6.) The Censor (AzTank) agrees not to Prosecute anyone as part of the preliminary deal, and with the understanding he gets a Province later.

7.) Censor passes back to Dictator (I.I.), who Proposes one Province to a Militarist senator, and one Province to a Conservative senator.
(Those senators immediately 'deploy' to their Provinces, leaving Rome.)

8.) Going into Other Business (I think that finishes Mandatory), the Dictator (I.I.) Proposes Raising the final 8 Legions (at 80 Talents).

(Note that if there's going to be any upgrade to Veteran defensive training regimens, it would have to be Proposed here.)

(ALSO NOTE! -- the new Concession isn't completely worthless without a Land Bill. It despawns back to the Forum without a Type 2 or 3 Land Bill, but it doesn't despawn before the Revenue Phase, during which it grants some cash to its senator. In fact, the cash even comes without a Minor Suspicion right now, because when the Concession despawns without a Land Bill, then it takes the Suspicion away, too! Anyway, if the Concession is going to be voted on, it would have to be before step nine.)

9.) The Dictator then Proposes Deploying himself and the Master of Horse to the 2nd Punic War with all Legions.

10.) They leave Rome, ending the Senate phase with the departure of the Dictator (as Presiding Magistrate).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on March 22, 2019, 12:58:14 PM
I'm good with that.  As far as the militarists getting a province, it probably should be Aelius, as Julius and Manilus will be needed to be on call for their military ability.  Also, I would like to do some farming for popularity/influence, so having a militariest being penciled in for the 3rd Punic war or some similar chance at glory in the future would be appreciated, as I get nothing for being MoH, other than a chance of dying.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on March 22, 2019, 01:26:50 PM
Is that to be voted on at this time ?
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on March 22, 2019, 02:07:54 PM
Just a correction, the militarists get one province and the populists get the other one. The conservatives could have the concession.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 22, 2019, 02:27:46 PM
Quote from: Erax on March 22, 2019, 02:07:54 PM
Just a correction, the militarists get one province and the populists get the other one. The conservatives could have the concession.

And Censor, per your original plan?
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 22, 2019, 02:29:42 PM
Quote from: malize on March 22, 2019, 01:26:50 PM
Is that to be voted on at this time ?

Don't think so, he's just offering a plan for consideration.

Strictly speaking, I.I. would present this (or something) as a voting/action Contract, Players would sign onto it, or not, and I'd process their votes when/if a voting-majority of Players sign on.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on March 22, 2019, 02:42:21 PM
The conservatives liked the idea of getting a province...  :-"
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on March 22, 2019, 04:39:58 PM
Quote from: ArizonaTank on March 22, 2019, 02:42:21 PM
The conservatives liked the idea of getting a province...  :-"

The populists have no problem with that.   I'll vote Yes on the plan with or without province to Populists.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on March 22, 2019, 05:42:25 PM
All right, province to the conservatives and I'll take the concession, I need to keep a bad omen insurance on my PontMax.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on March 22, 2019, 06:25:20 PM
Sounds good to me.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on March 23, 2019, 05:59:12 AM
For future reference, JP's rules on veterancy levels are on page 65 of this thread. The cost for training our vets keeps going up as we get more and more of them but we might consider setting some money aside for the next upgrade.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 23, 2019, 03:54:04 PM
I only see 29 pages to this thread, so it probably varies according to some setting.

Since I'm still polishing and game-testing the various house rules, I'll post the Vet rules here again.

House rules on Veteran Reform: Senate can vote to spend Talents instituting training for superior Veteran strength in defense. For New Veterans (Level 0), i.e. until the first paid Reform, Vets only get double attack bonus. The first paid Reform creates Seasoned Veterans with the first defensive bonuses. All Reforms cost 10 Talents times the number of Veteran Legions + 10 Talents per level of Reform. Only one level of Reform is allowed per Turn. Training Reforms are permanent and affect all current and new Veterans going forward.

For Seasoned Veterans (Level 1), all non-Vets must roll for survival first in a cycle, then Vets, youngest to oldest Legions in each case -- which is often what happens with Veteran Legions anyway (because oldest Legions tend to turn Veteran first)! So only a small survival bonus. Currently the Senate has instituted Level 1 defensive training. (Originally I put this ability second and the Mature ability first, but on reflection that didn't make much sense: the Seasoned ability ought to be an improvement of the usual testing order for experienced Legions.)

For Mature Veterans (Level 2), standard testing order resumes, but Vets get 1 extra survivor roll for each fatal roll. Success on a second (not first) roll reduces the total number of casualties! (This has been upgraded, too, and is the main benefit of Vet defense.)

For Hastati Veterans (Level 3), combine both Level 1 and 2 rules. (The Vets are in training to be more effective at reducing army casualties, but are becoming more valuable to risk in the forward positions again.)

For Elite Principes (Level 4), along with Level 3, any successful Veteran survival roll reduces the remaining casualties by 1! This indicates the Veterans are now successfully rescuing the whole Army rather than only sometimes deflecting hits away from themselves.

Once Level 4 training has been reached, a final fifth category of Veterancy training can be bought for specific Legions, at 50 Talents per Legion. These Gold Veteran Legions will be denoted by a permanent gold coin on their chit, and are in effect entire Legions of Triarii: aside from being allowed two survival rolls, and any survival success reducing the remaining casualties by one, Gold Vets do not even roll casualties until a Gold-only Force remains! ("It has come to the Triarii!")

The Gold Vets will provide at least an Influence boost, maybe also Pop and/or Mil boosts, for the senators who sponsor their final upgrade to what amounts to a prestige class (since they aren't really any more effective in a fight than Principes, and indeed tend to act like spoiled pima donnas), but I haven't worked out the details yet. Sponsoring Gold Veterancy will also allow (not require) a senator to take their Loyalty chit!
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 25, 2019, 11:48:49 AM
Quote from: IncompetentIdiot on March 22, 2019, 06:25:20 PM
Sounds good to me.

Well, you're still the Dictator from last turn. I couldn't tell if you were making a Contract offer, so I didn't process anything yesterday.

The updated details, I suppose, would look like this. I have bolded portions where information is still needed like this.

1.) Dictator (I.I.) Proposes Plutocrat and Progressive Consuls. (No veto possible.) He must specify which senators to Propose.

2.) The Consuls (Erax and the Frog) agree Plutocrat RC, Progressive FC.

(No new PontMax needed this Turn.)

3.) The Consuls appoint an Aristocrat Dictator (specifically Scipio).

4.) The Dictator (I.I.) appoints a Militarist MoH, specifically whom at his discretion.

5.) The Dictator Proposes a Conservative Censor. He must specify a particular senator.

6.) The Censor (AzTank) agrees not to Prosecute anyone as part of the preliminary deal, and with the understanding he gets a Province later.

7.) Censor passes back to Dictator (I.I.), who Proposes one Province to a Militarist senator, and one Province to a Conservative senator, senators still to be specified.

(Those senators immediately 'deploy' to their Provinces, leaving Rome.)

8.) Going into Other Business (I think that finishes Mandatory), the Dictator (I.I.) Proposes Raising the final 8 Legions (at 80 Talents).

(Note that if there's going to be any upgrade to Veteran defensive training regimens, it would have to be Proposed here.)

9.) The Dictator (I.I.) Proposes giving the Land Management Concession to a Progressive senator still to be specified.

10.) The Dictator then Proposes Deploying himself and the Master of Horse to the 2nd Punic War with all Legions.

11.) They leave Rome, ending the Senate phase with the departure of the Dictator (as Presiding Magistrate).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on March 25, 2019, 03:22:22 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on March 25, 2019, 11:48:49 AMThe updated details, I suppose, would look like this. I have bolded portions where information is still needed like this.

Thank you; I will nominate Claudius and Plautius.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 25, 2019, 04:05:29 PM
Got it. I think everyone but AzTank and the Frog essentially indicated agreement with the Contract, but I'll ping them and give everyone a chance for more corrections -- or, especially, a chance to make requests for nominations! (Since I.I. will have to nominate various senators for positions along the way.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on March 25, 2019, 04:33:50 PM
I concur
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 25, 2019, 09:01:46 PM
I'll start processing things tomorrow afternoon. Once I get going, I'll only stop for input from I.I. about Proposals, so unless you-all want to just accept a blank check on whatever he does, be sure to put in your preferences for which of your senators should get what offices!

Aside from that, I won't be stopping until, gosh, the Revolution Phase -- maybe!  :D
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on March 26, 2019, 07:26:24 AM
For the record, I agree
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on March 26, 2019, 04:52:23 PM
Land concession to Flaminius please.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 26, 2019, 06:12:12 PM
*** THE 13TH TURN CO-DEFENSE ANTI-CARTHAGINIAN MUTUAL PROSPERITY CONTRACT ***

Step 1: Per Contracted vote agreement, Dictator Scipio Proposes and installs the new Claudian senator of the Plutocrats, and Plautius of the Progressives, as Consuls.

Step 2: The Consuls (Erax and the Frog) agree, per Contract, on Claudius for Roman Consul and Plautius for Field Consul. Scipio ceases to be Dictator, and hands Presiding Magistrate duties over to Claudius.

Claudius becomes HRAO (with no Dictator again, yet), and so also Presiding Magistrate. Influence goes up 5 from 4 to 9; Plutocrat total from 25 to 30. He also gains a Prior Consul chip.

Plautius of the Progressives becomes Field Consul, now obtaining a Prior Consul chip as well. Influence goes up 5 from 14 to 19; total up from 24 to 29. (Unsure why the pre-Senate photo shows 22 Influence...?)


Note to self: gah, I suddenly realized I never got around to doing pre-Senate snapshots!  #:-) Well, too late now, forging on...  O:-)  :-[
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 26, 2019, 06:22:32 PM
(No new PontMax needed this Turn.)

Step 3: The Consuls agree per Contract to re-appoint Scipio as Dictator. Scipio becomes HRAO and Presiding Magistrate again, and gains 7 Inf (again), up from 42 to 49. Total Aristo Inf up from 94 to 101.

The Aristocrat special ability generates an extra point of Influence which must be given to Quinctuius (Inf 29) or Valerius (Inf 23).

As umpire I will point out that Scipio is now leading his nearest competitor, Manlius of the Militarists, by 15 points; and the Aristocrats have pulled ahead in total Influence by 8 (soon to be 9) points.

I.I. is consequently 5 and 22 (soon 21) points, respectively, from winning the game by himself automatically, per the more realistic house rule adjustment.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 26, 2019, 06:25:03 PM
Step 4: The Dictator (I.I.) appoints a Militarist MoH, specifically whom at his discretion.

This has not been indicated yet, so I must pause here. Each has 9 Mil. Julius has slightly less personal influence than Manlius at this time (31 vs 34).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on March 27, 2019, 10:35:32 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on March 26, 2019, 06:25:03 PM
Step 4: The Dictator (I.I.) appoints a Militarist MoH, specifically whom at his discretion.

This has not been indicated yet, so I must pause here. Each has 9 Mil. Julius has slightly less personal influence than Manlius at this time (31 vs 34).

I'm good with either as MoH. 
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on March 27, 2019, 03:46:37 PM
Quote from: Tripoli on March 27, 2019, 10:35:32 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on March 26, 2019, 06:25:03 PM
Step 4: The Dictator (I.I.) appoints a Militarist MoH, specifically whom at his discretion.

This has not been indicated yet, so I must pause here. Each has 9 Mil. Julius has slightly less personal influence than Manlius at this time (31 vs 34).

I'm good with either as MoH.

I'll appoint Manlius.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 27, 2019, 05:47:19 PM
Step 4: Scipio appoints Manlius, Faction Leader of the Militarists, as Master of Horse (again). His Inf goes up 3 from 34 to 37. Total Influence goes up from 93 to 96.

Next, I.I.'s Scipio must Propose a specific Conservative senator as Censor. AzTank has (more or less) agreed in joining the Contracted plan, that he will not launch Prosecutions of anyone this Turn. But I don't think he has requested a particular senator yet, nor has I.I. given me a name to process yet...?

I've dropped a line to AzTank to see if he has a preference -- all three of his senators have good reason to be Censor, although his newest family Senator Terentius can't yet (since he hasn't been a Consul yet).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on March 28, 2019, 06:07:55 AM
Please appoint Terentius to Censor
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on March 28, 2019, 07:18:30 AM
Quote from: ArizonaTank on March 28, 2019, 06:07:55 AM
Please appoint Terentius to Censor
Will do.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 28, 2019, 07:57:54 AM
I'll process this afternoon.

I think the only remaining fill-in-blank coming up is which senators get the new Governorships.

(Erax has already stated whom he'd like to get the temporary Concession benefit, namely his PontMax senator.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 28, 2019, 08:00:38 AM
Wait, Terentius can't be Censor, he hasn't been a "Prior Consul" (nor successfully prosecuted one).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on March 29, 2019, 06:57:46 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on March 28, 2019, 08:00:38 AM
Wait, Terentius can't be Censor, he hasn't been a "Prior Consul" (nor successfully prosecuted one).

I'll appoint according his preference.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 29, 2019, 07:26:20 AM
He notes in chat that he'll go with Furius then (the prior Censor).

This delay was partly my fault, since I had told him Terentius was valid, at first.

I'll process this afternoon.

Those Factions petitioning for Governors, should be letting I.I. (and me) know which senator you want to send off for Governance!

I think I recall Tripoli saying he wanted to send off Aelius. And for AzTank, obviously Terrance makes the most sense: it can't be Furius, who will be busy being Censor again, and if he sends Paullus off for three turns he'll take his votes with him!
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on March 29, 2019, 12:36:12 PM
Can we get a look at the province cards? Tripoli and Aztank may want to work out who gets what.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 29, 2019, 02:33:02 PM
Yeah, originally that was going to be included in my pre-Senate snapshot update, which I somehow brain-barfed into oblivion...  L:-)

Here's a snapshot from earlier.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/3/bRKFN4.jpg)

I have zoomed the shot in pretty far; the provinces are near (just right of) the upper left corner. (This is in lieu of going back and taking a direct snapshot properly zoomed in, which I'll try to provide later this afternoon.)

Neither Province is in danger of random Barbarian Invasion. In fact, Sardinia/Corsica cannot even raise militia! (I put an exclamation point after the 0 on the card where this would normally be marked.) Sicily gets 30 local taxes to spend on raising militia and local fleets each turn, but that isn't a resource the Governor gets to keep (he just has to decide what mix of 3 units to spend it on, up to the maximums.)

Sard/Corsc, in its Undeveloped condition (like now), only has a 1 in 6 chance of generating an extra talanton of spoils. And if you fail, the Faction or the Republic (player's choice) has to pay the result! But trying for Spoils is optional. The Republic will also be paying out cash each turn for its upkeep until it develops! (The Governor doesn't get to keep, or skim from, that payout.)

On the other hand, it's relatively safe: it only has to defend against the 1st Cicilian Pirate war. We'll find out later how strong that is, but it shouldn't be like going to war with Carthage.  ::)

Sicily is obviously the plummier post, if you're going to skim profits. It isn't going to cost anyone money until it Develops, although of course taking Spoils from it hampers its chance of Developing. It can make a nice base from which to launch a rebellion, too...  :-"
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 29, 2019, 05:58:39 PM
And here's a proper closeup (which can be embiggened further by left-clicking):

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/1213/WEdNfs.jpg)

Weirdly, Sardi/Corsi, even once its Developed, still only produces a negative 1d6 +1 ! That means Rome only has a 1 in 6 chance of not having to spend money on the place each Turn!

You'd definitely want to send a Governor there who can possibly offset that loss by squeezing the Developed 1d6-1 extra Spoils and donating that to the Republic!

It's an unusual political mix of punishment detail (Governors must go where they're voted, although they have the right to refuse if they've just come back from Governing somewhere) and trusted neutralizer of a liability the Republic will be saddled with during this time period.  :o
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 29, 2019, 06:13:24 PM
Step 5: By Scipio's Proposal, and by Contracted voting agreement, Furius of the Conservatives is re-elected for Censor. His Influence goes up 5 from 14 to 19; total Influence up from 33 to 38.

I will note that with this, AzTank, who got backstabbed by the Frog long ago as the start to a string of bad luck, has solidly passed the Plutocrats for 4th place (partly thanks to some recent bad luck for the Plutocrats, too).

Step 6: Presiding Magistrate duties shift temporarily to the Censor Furius; who by AzTank's Contract agreement, announces he will not Prosecute anyone this Turn, with the understanding that he gets a Province later. Presiding Magistrate duties return to the Dictator Scipio. All Suspicions are deleted until next Turn.


Next, Scipio must Propose giving a Governorship to a Militarist senator (presumably Aelius), and to a Conservative senator (presumably Terentius). Be aware that the only benefit likely to be gained by a senator Governing Sardi/Corsi, is some Influence when-if-ever he Develops it. Have fun chewing that over. ;)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 30, 2019, 05:23:15 PM
Allow me to make a suggestion for I.I.'s Proposal, since it turns out one of the Provinces is a ditch that will be completely unprofitable to a Faction until when-if-ever it develops: I.I. should Propose Sulpicius as Governor of Sardinia et Corsica!

Non-aligned senators can be voted as Governors. This will ensure the Province has a normal opportunity to develop into something that a trusted senator can at least be deployed to for recovering cash for the Republic (since throughout the game this Province will simply be costing the Republic cash each Turn even once developed, but a Governor could be trusted to squeeze some extra Spoils from it once developed and then donate that cash occasionally back to the Republic to offset the ongoing random expenses.) And meanwhile no aligned senator (and his votes) will be wasting away there!

As for the much plummier Sicily, I.I. can instruct me to roll randomly between Aelius and Terentius, or the Players can work things out among yourselves, or I.I. can just choose between them himself on whatever basis.  O:-)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on March 30, 2019, 06:56:01 PM
Upside: Sulpy will never refuse and never go for spoils

They could contrac to trade off Sicily whomever doesn't get it now gets it next
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on March 30, 2019, 09:04:06 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on March 30, 2019, 05:23:15 PM
Allow me to make a suggestion for I.I.'s Proposal, since it turns out one of the Provinces is a ditch that will be completely unprofitable to a Faction until when-if-ever it develops: I.I. should Propose Sulpicius as Governor of Sardinia et Corsica!

Non-aligned senators can be voted as Governors. This will ensure the Province has a normal opportunity to develop into something that a trusted senator can at least be deployed to for recovering cash for the Republic (since throughout the game this Province will simply be costing the Republic cash each Turn even once developed, but a Governor could be trusted to squeeze some extra Spoils from it once developed and then donate that cash occasionally back to the Republic to offset the ongoing random expenses.) And meanwhile no aligned senator (and his votes) will be wasting away there!

As for the much plummier Sicily, I.I. can instruct me to roll randomly between Aelius and Terentius, or the Players can work things out among yourselves, or I.I. can just choose between them himself on whatever basis.  O:-)
I'm happy with whatever solution the two of them work out.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on March 31, 2019, 04:44:19 AM
How about whoever gets Sardinia can trade it for a better province if his choice in 5 turns or when it becomes available whichever is more?  All players would have to agree
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on March 31, 2019, 09:31:01 AM
Lets ask Jason to roll on it... 50/50 shot.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 31, 2019, 12:22:22 PM
Would you like me to roll on who gets Sicily first, and then y'all work out what to do with Sardinia?

The Frog would be glad to send a senator to Sardinia next Turn, I think, by the way, if the Senate agrees (even if it hasn't developed yet). He's kind of struggling to regain Influence, so is willing to take opportunities that others might not care for.  O:-)


Quote from: malize on March 30, 2019, 06:56:01 PM
Upside: Sulpy will never refuse and never go for spoils

They could contrac to trade off Sicily whomever doesn't get it now gets it next

Also, if Sulpy gets steamrolled later....... wait wait wait, hold up! Let's rethink this a moment.

If the Scipio task force against Hannibal fails (e.g. Cannae disaster), then whoever is Governor of Cisalpina Gaul is probably going to be Defeated and die.

Consequently, the safest choice is to send Sulpy to replace Val as Governor of Gaul: if he gets murdered by the Carthaginians, it won't matter to anyone else (aside from losing all those Talents which someone could theoretically gain control of by punching successfully through them to Persuade him!) And a senator doesn't lose Influence or anything like that for being replaced before his three turns are up, so Val wouldn't suffer.

In that case, if no one wants Sardinia except someone desperate enough to waste time hanging out there gambling on its Development for three turns, then I.I. could send the Frog's senator (he hasn't specified which one yet) to Sardinia since he's willing to volunteer, and then let's say I roll 50/50 to see who gets Sicily first and the two senators switch out on that each Turn until such time as.... well, I don't know, in perpetuity perhaps? (A Governor can only stay, or be made to stay, away Governing for three Turns, but can be replaced at no dishonor or cost each Turn at a vote from the Senate.)

Another alternate is that the Militarists and Conservatives Contract that, whomever gets Sicily, they split the Spoils as evenly as possible with each other for the next three Turns, with any rounded up Talent (in the final sum at the end of the 3 turns) going to the senator who didn't get to go there (since he's losing out on the chance to earn some Influence by randomly developing the Province -- which, if they're spoiling it each turn, reduces to a 1/6th rather than 1/3 chance each turn anyway.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on March 31, 2019, 12:39:36 PM
So... the Proposal would be:

1.) A Plutocrat senator (I assume the Frog would want to send Acilius since he's got the least influence) gets sent to Govern Sardinia;

2.) Sulpy gets sent to Govern Cisalpine Gaul, recalling Valerius automatically to the Aristocrats in Rome;

and

3.) I roll 50/50 to see who gets Proposed for Sicily, Aelius or Terence. Whoever goes, agrees by Contract to try for Spoils each Turn and to split the Spoils as evenly as possible in an ongoing total, between the two senators (so for example if Aelius rounds up 1 Talent more the first Turn, Terence would get enough of the next spoils to even out their total). In case there's a final 1 Talent surplus rounded up, the senator who didn't get to go there would receive that, because the senator who does go gets the chance to earn a little Influence from randomly Developing-up the Province.

I think that would cover everyone nicely?  O:-)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on March 31, 2019, 04:42:16 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on March 31, 2019, 12:39:36 PM
So... the Proposal would be:

1.) A Plutocrat senator (I assume the Frog would want to send Acilius since he's got the least influence) gets sent to Govern Sardinia;

2.) Sulpy gets sent to Govern Cisalpine Gaul, recalling Valerius automatically to the Aristocrats in Rome;

and

3.) I roll 50/50 to see who gets Proposed for Sicily, Aelius or Terence. Whoever goes, agrees by Contract to try for Spoils each Turn and to split the Spoils as evenly as possible in an ongoing total, between the two senators (so for example if Aelius rounds up 1 Talent more the first Turn, Terence would get enough of the next spoils to even out their total). In case there's a final 1 Talent surplus rounded up, the senator who didn't get to go there would receive that, because the senator who does go gets the chance to earn a little Influence from randomly Developing-up the Province.

I think that would cover everyone nicely?  O:-)

I will  agree to that
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on March 31, 2019, 07:25:28 PM
Quote from: Tripoli on March 31, 2019, 04:42:16 PM
I will  agree to that
As will I.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on March 31, 2019, 09:45:45 PM
I thought I was voted into a position of power recently, but don't seem to have any actual decision making capacity. 

Anyway, I am indeed willing to send someone out to the boonies.  Better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven, as one says.

David

Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 01, 2019, 07:49:50 AM
Quote from: Ethel the Frog on March 31, 2019, 09:45:45 PM
I thought I was voted into a position of power recently, but don't seem to have any actual decision making capacity.

You agreed (per the Contract, and in conjunction with the Field Consul) to appoint Scipio as Dictator, so he has been making the Proposals since then. (He handed off PM duties temporarily to AzTank upon Furius' re-election to Censor, who then per Contract handed back without Prosecutions.)

Having agreed to the Contracted Proposals (though with some fill in the blanks for details ;) ), you've been voting automatically to follow the Contract. In that sense you've had the same decision making capacity as any other Player (who isn't the Dictator this Turn).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on April 01, 2019, 11:41:06 AM
I agree with Jason's plan
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 01, 2019, 04:31:44 PM
Rolling 1d6, with Terentius as odd, I rolled a 1, so the Conservatives get Sicily (for now).

Step 7: Scipio Proposes Terentius of the Conservatives (per random dice roll) as Governor of Sicily, and Acilius of the Plutocrats as Governor of Sardi/Corsi, plus the unaligned Sulpicius as Governor of Cisalpine Gallia (recalling Valerius of the Aristocrats to Rome); which the Contracted Players agree to vote on.

Those senators immediately 'deploy' to their Provinces, leaving Rome, with Val returning. Terms are set (or for Gaul reset) to 3.

Aristocrat normal vote tally goes up by Val's 4 knights and 2 Ora, to 21. (Currently per the Aristo special ability, because they lead in total Influence, actual voting on any topic adds another 4+4+4 knight activist votes for 33 votes.)

Conservative normal vote tally goes down by Terentius' 1 knight + 1 ora to 11.

Plutocrat vote tally goes down Acilius' 2 Ora + 2 knights, from 13 to 9.

Aelius didn't go anywhere, as it happens, so no effect other than the sub-Contract between Tripoli and AzTank on the Governance of Sicily.


The Conserva-Milito Profit-Sharing Sicilian Consortium starts now with the following Contracted terms:

1.) Having randomly drawn the Governorship for Sicily, AzTank promises to take Spoils from it whenever allowable during Terentius' initial three turns as Governor. (The qualification prevents a War from accidentally voiding the Contract: if a War is attacking Sicily during Terentius' term, he can't take spoils. Also, this Contract doesn't cover any future re-elections to this Governorship.)

2.) During that time, Terentius promises to send half of the total spoils he gathers, to Aelius of the Militarists, with any half difference split up by one Talent in favor of Aelius on the spoils; with the understanding that the spoils overall total will be split in such a way across the turns as to be exactly even on the final turn or to be one Talent ahead for Aelius. (I the umpire have the responsibility of making sure that works out. ;) )

3.) Any Influence gained by Terentius in managing Sicily will be his to keep.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 01, 2019, 04:39:03 PM
That ends all Mandatory Business.

Step 8: Going into Other Business, the Dictator (I.I.) Proposes Raising the final 8 Legions (at 80 Talents). Republic cash goes down 80 from 126 to 46.

All 25 Legions are now Active, with 6 of them being Level 1 Vets.

There was no apparent agreement on spending the cash for instituting a Level 2 Vet Training Regimen Reform, which is probably just as well considering the remaining cash: you'd need 80 Talents. (10 x 6 Vets) + (10 x 2nd level)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 01, 2019, 04:41:54 PM
Aurelius of the Populists, who holds the Armaments Concession, immediately receives 2 Talents x 8 Legions Raised = 16 persona cash; and picks up a Minor Suspicion.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 01, 2019, 04:44:01 PM
Step 9: The Dictator Scipio (I.I.) Proposes giving the Land Commissioner Concession to Pontifex Maximus Flaminius of the Progressives (to help offset the risk of Evil Omens).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 01, 2019, 04:47:53 PM
10.) The Dictator Scipio then Proposes Deploying himself and his Magister Militium Manlius, Faction Leader of the Militarists, to the 2nd Punic War with all Legions, plus 5 Fleets for securing and providing transport and Logistic Support.

11.) They leave Rome, ending the Senate phase with the departure of the Dictator (as Presiding Magistrate).

(Manlius will come back one way or another if he survives, so I won't adjust Militarist voting unless he dies. I'll wait to adjust Aristocrat voting, too, until I see whether Scipio dies or must stay as Proconsul, or comes back.)

This ends the Senate Phase for this Turn.

Next up... ending the Early Provincial Era with a bang (one way or another)!
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 01, 2019, 05:33:47 PM
TURN THIRTEEN -- COMBAT PHASE
-----------------------------

So we reach the defining conflict of this Era, the defense of the Italian heartland:

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/687/E2Yj3p.jpg)

Dictator Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus, and his Master of the Military Manlius, Faction Leader of the Militarists, and all 25 of the Roman Legions; versus the 2nd Punic War led by Hannibal and Hamilcar!

Total Roman Legions: 25
Total Veteran Legions: +6
Scipio's Mil skill: +5 (all used)
Manlius' Mil skill: +9 (all used)
2nd Punic War Land Strength: -15
Hannibal's Mil: -7
Hamilcar's Mil: -3
and no remaining factors.
Thus DRM = 25+6+5+9-15-7-3 = +20! This will be an automatic Victory with no Roman losses, unless the 3d6 totals 8 or 9 (Disaster), or 12 or 16 (Standoff). Scipio's special ability nullifies the War's own inherent D/S results of 10, 11, and 15.
Rolling 3d6: 3+4+6=13! Hamilcar almost pulls off a Standoff result, but cannot quite prevent the crushing Roman overpower from sweeping the field to a total Victory!

Unrest is already at 0, thanks to the confidence inspired by the Senate: SPQR!! The Republic Treasury gains 25 Spoils, up from 46 to 71 cash. This Victory creates the Provinces of Hispania Ulterior and Hispania Citerior. The 2nd Punic War permanently Discards (sparing Sulpcius and Cisalpine Gaul from attack). Hannibal and Hamilcar go to the Curia to see if they will survive long enough for the 3rd Punic War. The 5th Legion becomes Veteran, and Scipio gains its Loyalty chit.

Scipio, gaining the Victory, cannot increase his Popularity beyond the 9 Maximum, but increases his Influence by have the printed land strength of 15 = 7.5 rounded up to 8, from 49 to 57. Total influence goes up 8 from 101 to 109. With no Losses, his Popularity and Influence take no hits; nor are mortality chits drawn.

This is 13 total Faction points ahead of the Militarists. Scipio is already more than 20 points ahead personally; at 30 total Faction points ahead, Scipio will be automatically appointed Consul for Life, with the support of his Faction.

(The Aristocrats also farm an extra influence point per special abililty. I.I. hasn't given me instructions yet on distributing the extra point from Scipio being appointed Dictator, so I need to distribute two points, to Quincy and/or to Val. Naturally, this will take the Aristos to 15 points in the total lead...)

Manlius and the Support Fleets return to Rome immediately, where Manlius resigns as MoH.

Scipio marches back to the Senate with the Legions under his command.

This ends the Combat Phase.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 01, 2019, 05:48:12 PM
TURN THIRTEEN -- REVOLUTION PHASE
---------------------------------

I.I. must decide

a.) where to put the (Aristo special ability) two extra influence points (Val and/or Quincy);

b.) whether Scipio will retire the 2nd, 4th, and/or 5th Veteran Legions (whose loyalty he owns and who served under his current Victory), trading them in for 1 point each of Ora and Inf (also generating extra Inf points for distribution per Aristocrat ability!);

and c.) whether he will rebel against the Senate. He can count for sure on three Veteran Legions (if he doesn't retire them), but 4 Vets will definitely remain Loyal to the Republic. Scipio only has 5 personal cash to help salt a testing of other Legion loyalties. (Despite needing Fleet support, this was a land battle so Fleet loyalties are irrelevant.) Val no longer has a few extra militia to send under his command if Scipio rebels.

Players can now trade or donate Faction cards among themselves with an immediate reception. (No delayed cards arriving this Turn.) No one needs to discard or donate down to 5 or less cards.

I have contacted all Players with valid Statesmen and/or Concessions to be played -- if you didn't get a pmail from me, you don't have one yet.

I will pause here to resolve a few things before continuing on into Turn 14.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on April 01, 2019, 08:17:08 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on April 01, 2019, 05:48:12 PM
TURN THIRTEEN -- REVOLUTION PHASE
---------------------------------

I.I. must decide

a.) where to put the (Aristo special ability) two extra influence points (Val and/or Quincy);

b.) whether Scipio will retire the 2nd, 4th, and/or 5th Veteran Legions (whose loyalty he owns and who served under his current Victory), trading them in for 1 point each of Ora and Inf (also generating extra Inf points for distribution per Aristocrat ability!);

and c.) whether he will rebel against the Senate. He can count for sure on three Veteran Legions (if he doesn't retire them), but 4 Vets will definitely remain Loyal to the Republic. Scipio only has 5 personal cash to help salt a testing of other Legion loyalties. (Despite needing Fleet support, this was a land battle so Fleet loyalties are irrelevant.) Val no longer has a few extra militia to send under his command if Scipio rebels.

Players can now trade or donate Faction cards among themselves with an immediate reception. (No delayed cards arriving this Turn.) No one needs to discard or donate down to 5 or less cards.

I have contacted all Players with valid Statesmen and/or Concessions to be played -- if you didn't get a pmail from me, you don't have one yet.

I will pause here to resolve a few things before continuing on into Turn 14.

Extra influence to Valerius now that he's not at imminent risk of Carthaginian-induced death.

No revolt.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on April 01, 2019, 09:43:16 PM
I'll play grain concession on Junius
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 02, 2019, 08:19:16 AM
That will finish the Revolution Phase, then, and Turn 13! (If anyone wants to donate or trade Faction cards, you can still do so, I'll have them arrive immediately for a little while, to account for asynch lag.)

I'll process this afternoon (around 8 hours from now), and kick off Turn 14 with the Mortality and Revenue phases (and new snapshots at last.  :buck2: Can't believe I forgot those before the Senate phase, sorry.  :-[ )
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 02, 2019, 05:24:23 PM
Having processed the bequeathment of the Egyptian Grain Concession (3 Talents per Turn during usual Revenue, with an option like the Sicilian Grain to multiply that income times the number of Drought effects, by sacrificing Popularity); and having updated the Aristocrat Influence, Turn 13 ends.

TURN FOURTEEN -- MORTALITY PHASE
--------------------------------

Odds are extremely good, although not technically certain, that the Middle Provincial Era will start this Turn. But who will live to see it (maybe)? Or not live, as the case may be?!

No Immanent Wars to Activate this Turn (for which the Senate must be grateful to Jove and Mars!)

After a thorough shuffle of the Dreaded Mortality Bag... family #21 is drawn! The Kindly Ones brush past the newest active family, the Terentians, and tease a few Statesmen, but no active family is stricken this Turn.

This ends the Phase.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 02, 2019, 06:38:32 PM
TURN FOURTEEN -- REVENUE PHASE
------------------------------

Segment one, the Faction Income!

I.I.'s Aristocrats have 5 starting cash; +5 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator income; +4+4+4 knight income; +2 Tax Farming; +3 Harbor Fees
= new Faction total 32 Talents.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/8662/8jxeDG.jpg)


Tripoli's Militarists have 5 starting cash; +0 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator income; +1+6+5 knight income; +2 Tax Farming; +2 Contracted Sicilian Spoils sharing from the Conservatives (half the 1d6 result rounded up)
= new Faction total 26 Talents.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/5466/xaRrde.jpg)


The Frog's Plutocrats have 0 starting cash; +0 personal cash; +5+1+1 senator income (Plutocrat ability); +1+3+2 (x2 Plutocrat ability) knight income; +1 minor priest income
= new Faction Total 14 Talents. (Not yet counting any Spoils from Sardinia et Corsica, which are unlikely in any case.)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/2164/vSsOZL.jpg)



AzTank's Conservative Faction has 34 starting cash; +5+10 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator income; +2+2+1 knight income; +1 priest income; +4 Sicilian Grain Concession; +3 Contracted Spoils attempt on Sicily (1d6 result); -2 Contracted Spoils sharing with the Militarists (rounded up)
= new Faction total 65 Talents! (Not yet counting the option to sacrifice 2 Popularity for 4 more cash from Grain.)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/7362/SxwTls.jpg)
(Current Spoils share totals, AzTank 1, Trip 2. Next Turn's Spoil result will be split to even this out.)



Malize's Populists have 1 starting cash; +16 personal cash; +3+1+1+1 senator income; +2+2+1+2 knight income; +3 Mining Concession; +5 Egyptian Grain Concession
= new Faction total 38 Talents. (Not counting the option for Junius to sacrifice 2 Pop for 5 more cash from Grain.)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/8375/75KjqL.jpg)



Erax's Progressives have 0 starting cash; 14 personal cash; +3+1 senator income; +2+1 knight income; +1+1 priest income; +5 (1d6) PontMax income; +3 Land Commissioner; +2+2 Tax Farming
= new Faction total 35 Talents.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/6918/Gv7x4Y.jpg)
There will definitely be no Land Bill at the end of the next Forum Phase, so the Land Commissioner Concession has already returned to the Forum after triggering (taking its Minor Suspicion away from Flaminius, too.)

Governor Sulpy as an NPC senator won't attempt Spoils, and his Province is already Developed.

Expected non-random Republic Revenue will be 71 starting cash; +100 normal income; -2x22 Fleets; -2x25 Legions -0 Active Wars = 77 Talents. Plus and in one case minus random Provincial incomes, to be determined in Segment 3.

Players must now declare their Faction cash distributions, including any donations to the Republic for Influence.

The Frog must let me know if he will be attempting Spoils of Sardi/Corsi. Considering that currently this is 1d6-5, and that his Faction or the Republic (his choice) must pay any negative result, I don't recommend it. (Also doing so will reduce his chances of Developing the Province randomly later.) The Frog must also declare whether he will be adding at least 5 Talents to the local tax of 5, to buy at least one Provincial Fleet (10 Talents each, current maximum of 3.) The Province cannot support any militia yet!

As a reminder, since this element of the game has only recently unlocked: "local taxes" cannot be kept by Players. They must be spent on buffing local units, or lost.

Similarly, AzTank must let me know, during his distributions, how he will be spending Sicilia's 30 local taxes between raising Provincial Fleets (max 5) and militia (max 10). Moreover, AzTank must tell me if Paullus will be sacrificing 2 Pop (from 3 to 1) for an extra 4 Talents from his grain Concession due to the level 1 Drought.

Similarly, Malize must let me know, during his distributions, if Junius will be sacrificing 2 Pop (from 5 to 3, also reducing votes by 2 for Populist special ability) for an extra 5 Talents from his Grain Concession.

Beyond this, Players as always can provide me with provisional instructions for the upcoming Forum Phase: especially knight Persuasion instructions (but also Game Sponsoring, and/or Leader shifting).


So begins Segment 2, the distributioning...  :D
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on April 02, 2019, 06:43:35 PM
5 each to Quinctius and Valerius, 10 to Scipio.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on April 03, 2019, 07:14:20 AM
5 to Fabius (Knight)
10 to Aurelius (Donation to Treasury)
Enough for level 2 Games (21?) in celebration of the Punic Victory to Cato (with Bonus Pop to Fabius)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on April 03, 2019, 07:39:29 AM
Similarly, AzTank must let me know, during his distributions, how he will be spending Sicilia's 30 local taxes between raising Provincial Fleets (max 5) and militia (max 10). Moreover, AzTank must tell me if Paullus will be sacrificing 2 Pop (from 3 to 1) for an extra 4 Talents from his grain Concession due to the level 1 Drought.

Raise 5 militia and 2 fleets in Sicily.

Paulus will not sacrifice pop

5 talents to Paulus and Furious each
20 to Terentius, he will spend 5 for a knight and also hold games.


Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on April 03, 2019, 06:33:52 PM
"The Frog must let me know if he will be attempting Spoils of Sardi/Corsi. Considering that currently this is 1d6-5, and that his Faction or the Republic (his choice) must pay any negative result, I don't recommend it. (Also doing so will reduce his chances of Developing the Province randomly later.) The Frog must also declare whether he will be adding at least 5 Talents to the local tax of 5, to buy at least one Provincial Fleet (10 Talents each, current maximum of 3.) The Province cannot support any militia yet!"

I will buy a fleet. 
I will divide the cash evenly among my guys.  I won't attempt spoils. 
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 03, 2019, 09:24:32 PM
Quote from: ArizonaTank on April 03, 2019, 07:39:29 AM
Raise 5 militia and 2 fleets in Sicily.

That will cost 5x10 + 2x10 cash. You'll get 30 from local taxes to spend on this (which can only be spent on this), which of course is enough to buy 3 units of some mix.

You do have enough Faction cash to distribute over to to your Province to reach this goal (5 militia, 2 fleets). The math will work out as 65 Talents in Faction cash + 30 local taxes (which can only be spent on local troops) - 70 for local troops (5 militia 2 fleets) = 25 Talents left over.

From that, you can distribute 20 to Terentius (to spend as noted during your Forum phase upcoming), but you'll only have 5 left to give either to Paulus or to Furius, but not both. And then nothing remaining in your Faction cash.

You've been awfully conservative in your cash spending so far, so I want to make sure you really intended to do this as it's an unusual level of expense for you!

Alternately, if you misunderstood or didn't notice how much provincial units cost (i.e. the same as Republican units!), you can spend your 30 local taxes on 2 militia and 1 fleet, and keep most of the 5:2 proportion. This will cost you yourself nothing!  O:-) -- and then you can distribute out 20 + 5 + 5 as planned with plenty of cash left over in the Faction bank (as usual).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on April 04, 2019, 08:20:45 AM
OK, will do this:

30 local taxes on 2 militia and 1 fleet, and keep most of the 5:2 proportion. This will cost you yourself nothing!   -- and then you can distribute out 20 + 5 + 5 as planned with plenty of cash left over in the Faction bank (as usual).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on April 04, 2019, 09:45:31 AM
26 to Aelius.  He buys 1 knight, donates 21 to ROme for the influence
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 04, 2019, 05:36:26 PM
Great: once Erax makes his distributions, I'll be ready to finish this phase and go on into the Forum Phase.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on April 07, 2019, 07:04:10 PM
Sorry, I've been away.

20 to Flaminius, 10 to Plautius, 5 to faction treasury.

Plautius will spend 5 for a knight (or more if we get bad omens).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 07, 2019, 09:10:22 PM
Great!  :bd:

It's a little late for me to start processing into the Forum Phase, so I'll get to that tomorrow after work. (About 18 hours from now.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 09, 2019, 04:52:05 PM
Well, allergies wiped me out practically all day yesterday, and I've still got to do some yardwork before sundown, BUT I'm planning to get going with the phase procession tonight!  <:-)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 09, 2019, 05:32:29 PM
I.I. distributes 5 each to Quince and Val, 10 to Scipio, keeps 12, no further instructions.

Tripoli distributes all 26 to Aelius, donating 21 to Rome immediately for the 1 point of influence (up from 28 to 29; total Inf up to 97), and planning to spend 5 later on an automatic knight. Republic treasury goes up 21 cash from 71 to 92.

The Frog distributes 5 talents to Acilius, to contribute to Sardi/Cordi's local 5 cash taxes to buy one 10 cash fleet, and divides the remainder evenly, 3 to each senator. No further instructions.

AzTank keeps 35; distributes 5 each to Paulus and Furius; 20 to Terentius, who will spend 5 later for an automatic knight and 13 later for level 2 games. With his 30 local taxes he raises 2 militia and 1 fleet, making no contributions.

Malize distributes 10 to Aurelius who donates to Rome for 1 point Influence (up from 3 to 4, total up from 30 to 31). Republic cash up 10 from 92 to 102. 5 to Fabius for a knight later. 13 to Cato for Level 2 games later; bonus Popularity will later go to Fabius. Keeps 10 cash.

Erax distributes 20 to Flam, 10 to Plat, keeps 5. Plat will spend 5 for an automatic knight later.

This ends segment 2.

Segment 3, Republic income: 102 starting cash; +100 normal income; +2d6+1 = +9 from Cisalpine Gaul; -1d6-1 = -5 from Sardina et Corsica; +2d6-2 = +10(!) from Sicilia; -0 for no more Active Wars(!!) -0 no Land Bills; -2x25 Legions; -2x22 Fleets...
= new Republic treasury of 122 Talantons!

Sulpy, the unaligned governor of Cisalpine Gaul, uses his 20 local taxes to add another 2 militia, up from 2 to 4.

All governor terms decrease by 1. No terms finish.

This ends segment 3, and the Revenue Phase overall.


...and now I've got to figure out why my computer keeps trying to installshield something over and over again...  :buck2:
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 10, 2019, 08:33:12 AM
I never did figure out exactly why it was happening (although I suspect it's connected to my deletion of a lot of old programs off my data harddrive while trying to better defrag it). But after running a boot time virus scan, and a booted virus scan, last night, the behavior seems to have stopped.

I should be able to continue on into the Forum Phase this afternoon then. Thanks for all patience!  :notworthy:
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 10, 2019, 04:57:55 PM
TURN FOURTEEN -- FORUM PHASE
----------------------------

No events are removed from the Forum: the lone drought, caused by the inactive Illyrian War, stays put.

There are only 8 Scenario cards remaining in the Early Era, so with six players (and having already drawn and played some of the 6 of 12 remaining Early Era cards), the odds of shifting into the Middle Era this Turn are quite high.

Scipio Africanus is the Dictator, so is the highest ranking officer available in Rome, therefore I.I.'s Aristocrats will start around the table first, rolling 5+3, which does not equal 7, so which is a Scenario draw. And it's...!

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/1931/1mltyV.jpg)

...the 1st Lusitanian War. Notice the grey border, instead of white? So begins the Middle Provincial Era! More on that in a minute.

This War always activates as a Provincial Revolt, which is a new mechanic being introduced in the Middle Era -- but for all practical purposes, Revolts only mean Rome can't collect Spoils and/or generate new Provinces from defeating the Wars. This particular War will, naturally, try to attack and absorb the two Spanish provinces, which being immediately at war now won't be able to provide taxes (including to raise militia). But someone still has to go to those revolting provinces (ha ha) as Governors! (Incidentally, Lusitania was my favorite start area for the Europa Barborum mod for the original Rome Total War.)

The activation text only means that if you haven't beaten the 2nd Punic War yet, then this will be an Inactive War, until the Revolution Phase after you defeat the Carthaginian invasion. Which you already have, so it's already active.

You can expect two more Spanish Revolts, including another one during this Era, so by deduction the 3rd will be in the Late Era.

By recent standards this is a weak war, at only 6 land strength, and it has no leader (yet anyway). You'll need two fleets to secure a supply line, but no Naval War will be needed.

Meanwhile, what does the arrival of the Middle Era mean? First, the remaining cards of the Early deck now stack on top of the Middle Era deck: it's 53 cards now, so you'll be here a while, possibly with a few Early cards still showing up along the way -- and keep in mind that some players have been holding faction cards since literally the beginning of the game, so you may also still see some Italian and Latin Era cards being played! (But no pre-Early statesmen, those having been all forcibly retired.)

As before, the final 12 cards in this deck will be split 50/50 with cards from the Late Era, so you'll be here for at least 41 cards: seven turns minimum. (Unless the Players botch or luck off and everyone loses early! -- or one Player finagles an early win alone!)

Second, the random event roll table now upgrades. Some events like Refuge will eliminate (it was included out of memory of Hannibal's late life), and new ones will be added. Yes, there are still Evil Omens -- those are always a total of 10 on 3d6. ;) Yes, there are still Allied Enthusiasms! -- but those are a little more uncommon now. There are fewer good random events.

Third, normal (non-Vet) Legions are a little more likely to randomly test loyal to a Victorious Commander pondering whether to rebel against the Senate, 4 or better on a 1d6.

Fourth, you'll see a few new mechanics showing up, such as Revolts (already being exemplified). Or more precisely, Revolts without a Player rebelling against the Senate: you could have theoretically had that already.

Fifth, you will now at long last see an influx of nova familia! -- new senatorial families rising into political activity! The 20 Early Era families had, of course, been spread out by the prologue/tutorial Eras.

Overall, there aren't many new changes to keep track of, though I haven't mentioned absolutely everything new, leaving the remainder to be discovered along the way.

I don't have any instructions from I.I. yet, so I'll pause here; but you should at least declare who will try for a knight (whether paid or not).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on April 10, 2019, 09:34:41 PM
Knight to Quinctius.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 11, 2019, 07:23:41 AM
Was already in bed when that came in last night! -- but I'll process it after work today and move on to Tripoli etc.  O:-)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 11, 2019, 04:18:24 PM
Quinctius spends all 5 of his personal cash on an automatic 5th knight. Normal vote tally goes up to 22. Aristocrat special ability votes are currently activated thanks to their leading 111 Influence points, so current vote tally yes or no on any topic is actually 22+5+4+4 (knights counting again) = 35. These being all I.I.'s instructions, the round passes to Tripoli.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 11, 2019, 04:19:44 PM
Tripoli's Militarists roll 2+5, which equals 7 and thus triggers the new Random Event table! 3d6 roll 6+4+2=12, which is a Manpower Shortage. (Here's the new table for the Era by the way.)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/2087/nQuPyX.jpg)

(The snapshot numbers start with 3 on the top and go to 18 on the bottom, but those are in a column over to the left off-snap.)

Manpower Shortages can also be triggered by bad unrest. The event will last until the start of the Forum Phase next Turn (as usual), and in effect each level of the Event adds another 10 Talents to the cost of Raising a Fleet or Legion. It does not affect Provincial military costs. Nor, in regard to my experimental rules on Veteran Regimen Training, will it affect Military Reform costs, since those aren't about creating new military units.

According to pre-planned instructions, Aelius spends all 5 of his remaining personal cash on an automatic 2nd knight. Per the Militarist special ability, his Military Headquarters management skill goes up from 4 to 5. Militarist vote tally goes up to 22.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 11, 2019, 04:31:48 PM
The Frog's Plutocrats roll snake-eyes! -- which for this roll just means "not totaling 7", so no random event. He draws...

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/6601/BlF9fi.jpg)

...ah, whoops, the 2nd Illyrian War! This was expected to arrive sometime very soon: note the white border; this is left over from the Early Era, and per the information on the card indicating how many Wars were in this set, there were going to be a total of 2, both of them in the Early Era.

The 2nd goes Immanent, and the 1st goes Active! -- which I'll post some reminder information about, for the pre-Senate snapshots. Next Turn, the 2nd will go Active, too: doubling the basic strength of the first war! But unlike the 1st Illyrian, this War doesn't add an ongoing effective Drought level. And it might be a great war for a low-level senator to farm some influence and popularity on. (So might the 1st Illyrian, which is only a little stronger.)

The Frog has already done everything he can spend money on, but he instructs me to change his Faction Leader from Claudius to Acilius. So that being done, I'll move around the table.


Update: ah, forgot, he can always try to Persuade a knight, but that won't affect anyone else's round so I'll get back to that when he lets me know.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 11, 2019, 04:48:32 PM
The Frog tells me by chat that he wants Fulvius to try for a 4th knight, spending all 3 cash. That means he needs to roll 1d6 >= 3... which he does, barely, with a 3.  O0

Vote tally goes up to 10. (Acilius is away from Rome so his votes can't count.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 11, 2019, 05:30:36 PM
AzTank's Conservatives roll 6+4, which is not 7, so they draw a Scenario: a 3rd red-text Faction card to his hand. I've pmailed him already about it.

Per Az's prior instructions, Terentius spends 5 of his cash on an automatic 2nd knight (normal vote tally unchanged because he's off Governing Sicilia). And he spends 13 of his cash on Level 2 games, increasing his popularity from 1 to 3. Unrest would drop by 2, but it's already 0. (The rules allow absent Governors to Sponsor Games.) This ends his round.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 11, 2019, 05:47:31 PM
Malize's Populists roll 6+4, which isn't 7, so they draw a Scenario: a 3rd red-text Faction card to his hand. I've sent him a p-mail about it already.

Per prior instructions, Fabius Maximus spends all 5 of his cash on an automatic 3rd knight; Cato spends all 13 of his cash for Level 2 games. Unrest can't go below 0, but Cato's Popularity goes up from 3 to 5; and per the Populist special ability, the bonus point of Popularity will go (per prior instructions) to Fabius Maximus, up from 1 to 2. Populist vote tally goes up 1 knight + 2 pop + 1 pop from 33 to 37!

This ends his round (unless he wants to change Faction Leader).

Erax, the last Player around the table for this Forum Phase, up next.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 11, 2019, 06:04:29 PM
Erax's Progressives roll 2+3, which will draw the last Scenario for this Turn:

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/8817/XI58n1.jpg)

Ack! -- well, not unexpectedly, since the card text already alerted us it would be coming before the end of the Early Era (though personally I had forgotten about it), but it's the 2nd Macedonian War!

Fortunately, the Macedonian Leader Philip V, a dangerous Successor general, died of natural causes while planning and preparing for the next of his Wars, so you don't have to worry about him anymore.

Unfortunately, this makes three Active Wars! -- and a fourth one on the way to activate next Turn! Which, if these aren't trimmed down soon, will be an existential threat to the Republic! (And one of those Wars will Match and multiply another one!)

Anyway, per prior instructions, Plautius will spend 5 for an automatic 2nd knight. Normal vote tally up to 7.

As far as I know, this ends the Forum Phase.

Up next, the Population Phase, and then the Senate Phase for the Turn opens!
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 11, 2019, 06:31:29 PM
TURN FOURTEEN -- POPULATION PHASE
---------------------------------

Putting Rome in order...

All senators with PontMax or greater office, get a Major marker again.

No War is threatening the Roman heartland with destruction of property, so Tax Farmings are safe!

Speaking of, destroyed Tax Farming Concessions 5 and 6 roll to respawn from the Curia (coincidentally needing a 5 or 6 to win)... and the 5th Tax Farming area has recovered from being pillaged by the Carthaginian Army! (It rolled a 5, the other one rolled a 2 and remains destroyed for now.) So Tax Farming 5 can be Proposed and voted to be given to any aligned (and non-rebel) senator now.

Can that good luck roll on to any of the inactive senatorial families? Also needing a 5 or 6 to return...! But still no joy for them: 4, 4, and 3 (although that 3 was almost a 5 but rolled a little too far).

The Players have had ginormously good luck getting rid of Enemy Leaders throughout the game, however, and both of the Carthaginians are waiting in the wings planning a return. 4, and 2, means they stick around, plotting (though the 4 was almost a 6).

Adjusting Unrest. All the Active Wars are new, so they generate no unrest yet; and the 2nd Illyrian is only Immanent. The 1st is still generating a Drought effect, though, so that adds +1 to the Unrest of 0.

The HRAO this turn is the Dictator Scipio Africanus, and his massive maximum-possible 9 Popularity! So 9 Pop -1 Unrest + 3d6 for his State of the Republic Speech... +4+4+1 = 17. That subtracts 2 from Unrest, setting it back to 0.

Whether it's still at 0 next Turn remains to be seen....

As usual, while that would technically start the Senate Phase, I'm going to wait until I get the snapshots taken, edited up, and posted.

Discussion is still welcome, but consider it pre-senatorial discussion; no actual Actions yet. First Mandatory Business will be I.I.'s Proposal (since Scipio starts the Senate as Dictator) of two new Consuls to replace Plautius and Claudius (of the Progressives and Plutocrats respectively).

Invalid senators beyond the current Consuls (and Scipio as current Dictator) also include Acilius of the Plutocrats, and Terentius of the Conservatives.

It may be tomorrow afternoon before I get the snapshots up; I need to go eat tonight.  :buck2:
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 13, 2019, 01:16:01 PM
TURN FOURTEEN -- SENATE PHASE
-----------------------------

Okay, let's get the snapshots up to date, finally! (I would have done this Friday night, except my schedule got changed and then AT&T zorched my landline for the night including the internet.)

The indisputable lead Faction, I.I.'s Aristocrats are in a dangerous position simply by being too powerful now! Scipio Africanus has just passed the 20 point lead in Influence over his closest rival (Manlius of the Militarists), and his alliance is about halfway to the 30 point lead he needs, to be automatically proclaimed Consul for Life! Fortunately, the Aristocrats aren't likely to be given any more chances to keep and expand their lead. Unfortunately, the Aristocrats still have an activist vote of 35 on any topic, pro or con, due to their current lead, so their opinions on various Influence-gaining actions cannot simply be ignored! Moreover, with the Republic facing a somewhat unexpected existential War crisis yet again (after hoping they'd have some time off from that), the Militarists are very likely to gain disproportionate Influence and the Aristocrats are currently the best method of offsetting their own ambitions. (Although Tripoli does have the political advantage of having contractually renounced any possibility of automatically winning...)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/127/06yHPD.jpg)



The equally indisputable 2nd Place Faction, Tripoli's Militarists might soon be taking 1st Place by dint of the ongoing turns of war crises! Fortunately for everyone else, Tripoli permanently renounced any automatic Influence win; and since his Faction doesn't have activist voting, he'll have a substantially harder time than I.I. trying to outvote the Senate for a win. Also, the current war crisis involves Wars which can, mostly, be easily beaten without Militarist help. Mostly. But Tripoli's position isn't likely to worsen anytime soon!
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/2995/ks3pz1.jpg)



The Frog's Plutocrats, arguably at 5th place, are still struggling to regain relevancy in the Senate after several setbacks, some random from bad luck, and some stemming from his early betrayal of a political ally to death! Acilius, the former PontMax (evicted due to bad luck), has now become the new Faction Leader, but has volunteered to be banished, in effect, far away from Rome in an unprofitable provincial Governorship. The Frog has proven to be a canny political operative, however, and his ongoing financial special abilities will always give him an edge in returning his Faction to glory. Indeed, last turn his new Claudian senator gained the Roman Consulship! -- the first time high office has returned to the Plutocrats in practically a whole Era! And he has been sitting on a solid stack of Faction cards since times eonian, waiting for the most opportune time to unleash them...
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/624/0fOwGn.jpg)



Hanging in a solid 4th Place, AzTank's Conservatives mainly have a problem with vote control: only 11, thanks to one of his senators out Governing a Province. His 'conservative' financial choices have allowed him to slowly rebuild after turns of disaster, and he now has the strongest influence of any Player other than the two giants. Moreover, he picked up a plum Provincial Governorship last Turn, although he's contractually obligated to share any extra spoils with Aelius of the Militarists. And Aemilius Paullus Macedonicus is ready to deal with one of the two key military problems threatening the Republic this Turn. The Conservatives are poised to retake a more leading role in the Senate again.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/74/AceYSD.jpg)



A strong 3rd Place, Malize's Populists would look even stronger if not for the godly Influence levels of the two giants. His control of 37 senate votes is much less transitory than I.I.'s Aristocrats, and he has four senators to work with, including two excellent Statesmen. Fabius Maximus and his genius defensive military abilities could be easily crucial to upcoming campaigns where most of the Wars don't need special knowledge of the local terrain or crazy-prepared military headquarters.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/9996/BFKatV.jpg)



While Erax's Progressives surely remain the weakest Faction, it would be a mistake to underestimate his influence in the game! Remember, he came close to automatically winning the game by himself while still being the weakest faction in the game! Only sheer random luck (mostly the affection of the Kindly Ones) has kept him from ultimate dominance. Despite controlling only 7 senatorial votes normally (plus another 4 in special circumstances), he has carefully maneuvered himself into roles of high governance, including the permanent PontMax (despite losing it once to bad luck already).
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/327/rWRFi0.jpg)



(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/5949/Hq6mYF.jpg)

The Manpower Shortage in the Republic this Turn won't be a problem since the Legions are at their maximum logistics already, and there is no need for more Fleets (yet). The ongoing Drought-effect should be resolved soon now that Illyrium has gone to War. And two Concessions (one of them permanent) are waiting to be political awards to senators! Most importantly, for several reasons, the Provinces of Hispania need Governance -- and they're being attacked by the first Lusitanian Revolt already! On the other hand, now that the rich Gallic land is no longer under threat, there's no need for the unaligned Sulpicius to be Governing there any longer: he can be shifted to one of the Hispanic areas instead, and a Player's senator given the honor (and profit) of Developed Cisalpine Gaul!


(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/9618/aXmQEe.jpg)

The war situation could be a lot worse -- but it could be a lot better, too! Fortunately, even if the Illyrian Wars are still around to combine next Turn, they don't combine their D/S results and their Land Strength will be relatively easy to manage even combined. The only real problem is simply the sheer number of Wars, which could rip the Republic apart!

The Republic has 102 Talents in the Treasury, but all 25 Legions are already Active and prepared to fight, with no less than 7 Veterans! 22 Fleets are also ready to secure the logistic operations of the Legions.

The First Mandatory Business, as usual, will be for I.I.'s Scipio, the Dictator and so Presiding Magistrate at the start of this Senate, to Propose two new Consuls from senators present in Rome and not already Dictator or Consuls.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 13, 2019, 01:36:47 PM
As the Senate starts, AzTank plays one of his face-down Faction cards, taking advantage of a new game mechanic introduced in the Middle Era:

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/9397/zyMz8x.jpg)

Historical Law Proposals! :D

In the basic game, Players just throw historical Laws down at any time in the Senate Phase once it starts, assuming they've drawn a Law to their hand, and this automatically changes the rules of the game. Of course, a Player doesn't have to do this so a historical Law won't necessarily happen!

In the more advanced, full game we're playing (even without the expansion prologue and epilogue Eras, not to mention the house rule tests), Laws must be voted on by the Players like any other Proposal to the Senate. If the vote doesn't get a majority, the Law is discarded and will never be implemented. If it passes with even a slight majority, then the rule change represented by the Law goes into permanent effect.

This is the key difference between a Historical Law, and a permanent Contract: Laws necessarily affect all Players; Contracts only affect the Players who sign onto them.

In this case, despite the title "Military Reforms", this Law has nothing to do with the military. ;) (Indeed this is one reason I'm testing a created house rule about actual military reform similar to the Marian reforms!) Rather, this Law, as can be seen, permanently removes any chance of any senator automatically winning through superior Influence. So it's like Tripoli's self-imposed voluntary Contract, not to accept an automatic Influence appointment to Consul-for-Life. But it will apply to all senators in the game, active and henceforth, even the senators of Players who vote against the Law! -- if the Law passes.

Moreover, Laws, being "Intrigue" cards, do not need to be Proposed by Tribunes or by Presiding Magistrates. They can be Proposed merely by playing them to the Forum, as AzTank has done.

Relatedly, neither can Law votes be stopped by assassinations, although those can still happen during the voting process.

Nor can Laws be vetoed by anyone, although senators may Abstain from voting For or Against.

The only requirement to be met before voting, is Sponsorship. Any Law must have a Sponsor and a Co-Sponsor. Sponsors must be non-rebel senators present in Rome (not Captives or Proconsuls or Governors). Any Player can volunteer one or two senators as Sponsors, including AzTank -- although he hasn't told me to volunteer any of his, so the spots are still open!

If the Law passes, the Sponsoring senator will gain 3 Influence, and the Co-Sponsor will gain 1. But there is no downside if the Law fails. (Nor can the Law vote be stopped by assassinating the Sponsors.)

This Proposal now takes precedence, and must be resolved before the normal First Mandatory Business (new Consuls). The Presiding Magistrate, I.I.'s Scipio, has the right to determine voting order as usual, or to call for an open vote -- but first, senators must be volunteered as Sponsor and Co-Sponsor!

(Note that the Law references the normal rule about 35 Influence, but the spirit of the Law would apply to my house rule about combined Influence leads, too. If it passes, there can be no automatic appointment of a Consul For Life afterward for the rest of the game. A Player can only win by himself by rebelling successfully against the Senate, or by engineering a Senate vote.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on April 13, 2019, 02:49:39 PM
Are these laws also subject to the provision for land bills that allows for free assassination attempts on the sponsors if they are from the same faction?

If not, I'll volunteer Scipio as sponsor and Valerius as co-sponsor.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 13, 2019, 03:14:30 PM
No, it's okay. The difference is that Land Bills are inherently unpopular in the Senate, so there's an unspoken agreement to turn a blind eye to anyone trying to stop the Land Bill by assassinating the sponsor.

Laws, however, cannot be stopped by assassinating the Sponsors (and there is no senator doing the "Proposing", exactly -- in effect Laws come with a special one-use Tribune invisibly attached). So there's no point to assassinating the Sponsors! Well, not in regard to the Law anyway. ;)

In conclusion, anyone attempting to assassinate your Sponsors will still feel the full fury of the court landing on their Faction Leader, if they're caught in the attempt. And it wouldn't stop the Law anyway.

Beyond which, people might be less likely to assassinate one of your senators since you're willing to agree to a Law which eliminates an avenue by which you might win!  O:-)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 13, 2019, 03:40:54 PM
So, with a Sponsor and Co-sponsor now attached, the time has come to vote on the Proposal. No vetoes allowed for Law Proposals.

I.I. hasn't called a voting order as Presiding Magistrate, so currently anyone can vote in any order.

Scipio and Valerius must vote For the Law, and unless I hear differently I'll provisionally assume Quincy is also voting For.

Also unless I hear differently, I can presume all the Conservatives will be voting For (because AzTank threw the card to begin with).

Since the Law does nothing except ensure that all Players mimic his own voluntary Contract, I can presume Tripoli will vote For.


Provisional voting then is Aristocrat 22 +5+4+4 activists; +22 Militarist votes; +11 Conservatives = 68 votes provisionally FOR the Law.

This would be enough for a solid majority, since the remaining Players can only muster 58 votes against it. Erax's two senators will each gain +1 Inf for voting on the Law either way!

Just to be safe, though, I'll wait to confirm Tripoli's vote.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on April 13, 2019, 08:32:21 PM
I'll vote for the military law proposal
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 13, 2019, 09:54:56 PM
With the Aristocrat vote (including activists), plus AzTank's vote (which I already know he's going to do -- he wasn't planning to play the law and then vote against it), plus Tripoli's vote (confirmed verbally), that's a solid majority, so the Law is put into effect!

This effectively cancels (by overriding redundantly) Tripoli's anti-appointment contract, so I've deleted it.

Erax's senators were going to get 1 Influence each regardless of how they voted on the Law, and he'd be silly to abstain from that, so I'm going to assume he voted them (unless he tells me later he doesn't want the influence points!) Plautius up 1 from 19 to 20; and Flaminius up 1 from 10 to 11. Total Influence up from 29 to 31.

Scipio gains 3 Influence as Sponsor, up from 57 to 60; and Valerius gains 1 point as Co-sponsor, up from 25 to 26. Total Influence up from 111 to 115.

Aristocrats generate 2 extra Influence points thanks to their special ability. Both can be given to Quincy, or one each can be given to two of the senators (e.g. Val and Scipio could give each other their extra points).

If there are no other surprises, we'll move along back to the normal First Mandatory Business of Scipio ( = I.I.) Proposing two new Consuls. They can't be himself, Plautius of the Progressives, or Claudius of the Plutocrats, because those are already Consuls or himself the Dictator. And it can't be Acilius of the Plutocrats or Terentius of the Conservatives, because they're away from Rome Governing. Any other choices should be valid.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on April 14, 2019, 11:42:57 AM
I will vote against the new law. 

In addition, Claudius will assassinate Scipio with the help of my assassin card.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 14, 2019, 12:36:41 PM
Oooookay! -- the Frog votes against the new Law, but it won't make any difference since there's a solid majority already.

Meanwhile, it's time to assassinate Scipio!  <:-)

Assassination has been in the game since Turn 1, but we haven't used it yet. I'll provide a rundown on how it works.

First, you can only assassinate someone during the Senate Phase; but you can do it at any time during the Senate Phase. Check!

Second, targets must be in Rome (not Captive, Proconsuls, or out Governing somewhere). Scipio is in Rome, check! (There are some other invalidities involved, such as the inability to assassinate Consuls for Life once they have the title, which is naturally not very realistic but is necessary for game balance.)

Third, senators assassinate each other, so the Player must declare which senator of his Faction will be making the attempt. Claudius, check!

Fourth, the attacking senator must also be in Rome. Claudius, check!

Fifth, a Faction can only try an assassination once per Turn. The Frog hasn't tried yet this Turn, check!

Sixth, no Faction (thus no senator) can be targeted more than once per Turn. Aristocrats haven't been targeted yet, so check!

Assassination is valid, and so goes forward!

Assassinations always interrupt any ongoing action, and sometimes (not always) will abort the action if successful. (I won't go into all the rules about this.) There's no specific action going on right now (only a general consideration of whom to Propose for Consul), so there's no interruption.

The natural chances of an assassination are based on a 1d6. 5 or 6, the target dies. 1 or 2, the assassin is caught and dies. 3 or 4, nothing happens either way.

If Scipio had one or more Open Bodyguards (which are Intrigue cards played on senators, like Concessions), each one would modify the die roll down one notch; and moreover, regardless of the original outcome Claudius would have to keep rolling again to see if he escapes each Bodyguard! (Thus it is possible for an assassin to kill his target but not escape the bodyguard(s).)

In this case, there are no Open Bodyguards. But the Frog plays his own Intrigue card, an Assassin, which as the umpire I can verify he does have! (It will discard permanently, as usual, after use.) The Assassin isn't necessary to try an assassination, but the professional help will add +1 to the die roll. (Any number of Assassin cards can be played on an assassination to help it. They do not negate extra Bodyguard rolls, nor add extra attempts on the target, but they do help survive Bodyguards.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 14, 2019, 12:53:44 PM
In case you're wondering, here's what an Assassin Intrigue card looks like. (This snapshot comes from the Discard pile, where I've already put it.)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/9702/L8xuvz.jpg)

Notice that this one has a white border, so comes from the Early Era (and was possibly dealt out during the Italian or even Latin Era!) How many other players have an assassin card? Who knows?!  :D

I go to my nice dice-rolling tool in TTS (...this is one reason I wish the dice-rolling module still worked on the forum, because any result I roll will be controversial...)....

...and it's a six!

The Assassin wasn't even needed. Scipio dies on an adjusted roll of 5 or more, and this was an adjusted 7.

Had the assassin been caught, either on this roll or while trying to escape one or more Bodyguards, Claudius would have been automatically killed instead, and then the Plutocrats' Faction Leader would have been immediately brought to a Special Major trial by the Censor (Furius of the Conservatives in this case, or the HRAO if no Censor is available). That would have been Acilius -- but he would have been invulnerable because he's out of Rome off Governing somewhere!  ^-^ Consequently, he couldn't have been brought to trial! (And he would have had plausible deniability, not being there, anyway.)

This is why the Frog gave Faction Leadership to Acilius.  >:D And why the Frog was willing to volunteer him, before he became Faction Leader, to Govern that ditzy and unprofitable Province.

Now, it is possible to even send one's own Faction Leader on an assassination attempt -- which, note, was formerly Claudius! If he gets caught and thus executed, however, there's a general panic among the senate and I would draw a number of mortality chits equal to the target's Popularity: and every active family member drawn would immediately be executed on suspicion of conspiracy!  :o :hide:

Moreover, if a Faction loses its last senator, necessarily the Faction Leader, due to being caught and executed on an assassination mission, that Faction would be kicked out of the game! -- this is the only way for a Faction to ever be put entirely out of the game. (However, per optional house rule, the other Players may vote to keep the Player and his Faction in, with certain severe penalties preventing him from being active for a while.)


None of that is necessary, in this case. Scipio dies, and Claudius gets away with it, and Acilius is off innocently Governing the dirthole of Sardi/Corsi and shrugging his shoulders at this dastardly crime.  >:D
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 14, 2019, 01:14:43 PM
Scipio dies. Tax Farming Concession #1 goes to the Forum for reassignment. Loyalty chits for 2nd, 4th, and 5th Legions go back to the bank. (The Vets stay Vets, but they'll be loyal to the Republic now, not to a senator personally.) The Cornelian family was supporting Scipio -- I.I. has the Cornelian family card -- so they emergency promote a new scion to the Senate. (Had this Cornelius died, the generic family Senator, not the specific historical character Statesmen, the family card would have gone to the Curia to await a reactivation.) Only the Conservatives have the ongoing special inheritance ability, so the new Cornelius starts with no chits.

New Faction total influence, 60. (29 + 26 + 5) New normal vote tally, 16. (Oras 2+2+3 plus 5+4 knights.)

So, alas, passes the great Statesman and hero of the Republic, Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus, often Dictator and Consul, savior of the Punic Wars. Deleta Carthago est.  :cowboy:


I. I. still has two extra Influence hanging out, due to the Aristocrat special ability, unassigned. Since the new Cornelius is a different 'character' than Scipio Africanus, he could receive both points if I.I. wants.


With his passing, the post of Presiding Magistrate descends to the next Highest Ranking Available Officer, who... gosh, turns out to be Roman Consul Claudius of the Plutocrats. WHO COULD EVEN HAVE GUESSED?!?

The Frog, y'all.  :clap:
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 14, 2019, 01:20:12 PM
In case you're wondering, Manlius of the Militarists would now be rather close to automatically winning the game, since his Faction is now 30+ points in the Influence lead, and he himself is 8 points ahead of the second place senator(s).

However, thanks to the recent Law, no one can win the game automatically anymore.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on April 14, 2019, 04:38:56 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on April 14, 2019, 01:20:12 PM
In case you're wondering, Manlius of the Militarists would now be rather close to automatically winning the game, since his Faction is now 30+ points in the Influence lead, and he himself is 8 points ahead of the second place senator(s).

However, thanks to the recent Law, no one can win the game automatically anymore.

Do I want to be in the lead with Ethel "Corleone" running around?   Retiring to my farm is looking attractive right now  :o
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 14, 2019, 05:40:29 PM
He just has enthusiasms!

(...enthusiasms. .....enthusiasms.)

{/untouchablesref}  >:D

Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on April 14, 2019, 07:44:47 PM
"Leave the Gladius, bring the cannolis"
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 14, 2019, 08:27:41 PM
Ooooh, Gladius! -- I love that game so much. Works perfectly fine on PCXS2, too!

(It's an old PS2 game from Lucasfilm, of all things. Superb soundtrack, great plot, great turn-based tactical mechanics.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on April 14, 2019, 11:00:22 PM
Well, becoming Presiding Magistrate was a surprise result.  I wish I could say I planned it that way...

I am to propose 2 consuls, apparently.  I was braced for a prosecution. 

Not quite sure who we need. 
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on April 15, 2019, 02:06:41 PM
As a show of good faith, I will recuse myself from the post in favor of Erax and give him the task of assigning the next consuls. 
I am hoping that this will persuade the group that my intentions are honorable and not driven by lust for power. 
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 15, 2019, 05:56:56 PM
Alll righty!  :D

I've p-mailed Erax to alert him that Field Consul Plautius is the PM now.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 17, 2019, 07:06:33 PM
I think Erax is out of town for the week, and players may be spotty over the coming Easter Weekend, so don't be surprised if play slows down for a while.  O:-)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on April 24, 2019, 03:56:16 PM
Yes, I was away, sorry about that, things have been busy around here.

I propose Flaminius and Fabius of the Populists, with a package deal for Aemilius of the Conservatives as Censor provided he does not prosecute.

By the way I won't be able to double-check the math for a while, sorry about that too.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on April 24, 2019, 07:25:32 PM
Does not prosecute who?  I'll vote in favor if I am not getting prosecuted.  :)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 24, 2019, 07:26:09 PM
Heh, good question!

For ease of reference, here's a link to the pre-Senate mat snapshots and table stats (although with 100% more Scipio Africanus than will be actually available going forward... ;) )

http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=22942.msg645569#msg645569
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on April 25, 2019, 09:11:27 AM
Does not prosecute anyone who votes in favor, I should have clarified that.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on April 30, 2019, 08:23:45 AM
Quote from: Erax on April 25, 2019, 09:11:27 AM
Does not prosecute anyone who votes in favor, I should have clarified that.
Where are we at with this proposal?
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 30, 2019, 01:01:16 PM
In effect Erax and the frog have voted for it.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on May 01, 2019, 05:59:06 AM
Quote from: Erax on April 25, 2019, 09:11:27 AM
Does not prosecute anyone who votes in favor, I should have clarified that.

Does that also include not assassinating those who vote for the deal?  Inquiring minds want to know ;D
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on May 01, 2019, 08:34:58 AM
Will vote yes
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 01, 2019, 02:17:49 PM
That might be a majority, but I'll want to check that later this afternoon.

Note that Erax can't really offer a package deal of anything yet, unless the Consuls refuse to appoint a Dictator! -- but if they do appoint one (which is certainly legal this Turn), then the Dictator gets to make his own deals about Proposals going forward, including whom he will Propose as Censor.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on May 01, 2019, 03:25:38 PM
Yes
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on May 01, 2019, 04:03:19 PM
Yes
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 01, 2019, 04:32:07 PM
Well, if that isn't a majority I don't know what is!

I'll get to work processing soon.

Erax and Malize should meanwhile now get together and decide which senators will be Roman and Field Consul (the militarily obvious choice for the latter would be Malize's defensive statesman, whose name I can't recall offhand).

You should also decide if you're going to appoint a Dictator this Turn, and if so who. Anyone actually in Rome, and not your two Consuls, can serve.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on May 01, 2019, 04:58:26 PM
Well, I suppose I'll be voting for as well.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 01, 2019, 08:55:44 PM
While we're waiting for Erax and Malize to work out those two things:

Flam's Inf goes up 5 from 11 to 16 (Progressive total from 31 to 36.)

Fab's Inf goes up 5 from 4 to 9 (Progressive total from 30 to 35.)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on May 02, 2019, 01:50:21 AM
I'm assuming Erax has a plan.  I also have no problem with Fabius being FC.

Having said that, I'll wait to see what he's got percolating in his brain bone.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on May 02, 2019, 03:24:23 PM
I need to have a good look at the situation and for that I need to get home. I will post a plan tonight.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on May 02, 2019, 07:01:17 PM
I said I wouldn't double-check the math but I ended up having to do it anyway to find out how much each faction is earning.

JP, you forgot to give Ethel the double knight cash bonus, he should have an extra T$ 6 this turn.

We have a Dictator position, two provinces and two concessions to hand out, then we have three wars to fight. Here's the plan.

I propose Claudius of the Plutocrats as Dictator, *provided* he agrees to the following package deal:

Aemilius gets Censor, as proposed before, provided he agrees to not prosecute anyone who votes for the package deal.

The Conservatives are sitting on large reserves but have the lowest income out of all the factions so they should get the Tax Farming concession (it will still leave them at the lowest income but it's better than nothing).

The Aristocrats get the Land Commissioner concession as a small compensation for losing Scipio.

The two provinces offer little to nothing until they develop, so I suggest we ask for volunteer governors who MUST be honest and stay honest until the provinces develop, we want them to develop quickly and not be a drain on Rome. This incidentally rules out both my Senators.

On to the wars.

Fabius takes 5 regulars + 2 veterans vs. the Lusitanians, for a total of 5 + 5 + 4 - 6 = +8.
Claudius takes 4 regulars + 3 veterans vs. the Illyrians, for a total of 2 + 4 + 6 - 5 = +7.
Flaminius takes 9 regulars + 2 veterans vs. the Macedonians, for a total of 4 + 9 + 4 - 10 = +7.

Fabius gets the extra point because we don't want the revolt to survive and start attacking our newly-created provinces.

This plan does not require a vote, as long as 1) Fabius agrees and 2) Claudius agrees to propose the above package deal, Claudius is appointed Dictator and then he can propose the deal, setting a voting order if he so wishes.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 02, 2019, 08:34:57 PM
This should be considered a Contract proposal by the way.

Once enough people have signed on for a majority (and other agreed conditions, like not prosecuting anyone who joins the contract), then I'll start processing automatically.

I can confirm that Erax is correct about my missing the double-knight income for the Plutocrats -- which is weird because I explicitly wrote down a reminder to count the knights twice! (It can be seen in my segment 1 income post for the Plutocrats!) Nevertheless, I forgot to add another 6. Fortunately this did not affect anything the Frog was doing. I'm currently keeping 6 in the Faction Treasury, but if he wants me to distribute them out some more I will.


Note that aside from questions of honesty ;) , Plautius is serving as Roman Consul this turn, and Flam is the permanent PontMax, and so neither can be given a Governor post.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 02, 2019, 08:52:55 PM
QuoteFabius gets the extra point because we don't want the [Lusitanian] revolt to survive and start attacking our newly-created provinces.

Claudius, as Dictator, would also get to appoint his Master of Horse, and add that Mil Skill to the headquarters buff.

Assuming he would appoint a senator with enough Mil (not necessarily having to be a Militarist in this case?) to maximize his HQ buff, the math would be 7 Legions (regulars and vets) + 3 Vets (counted again for their extra attack) + 7 total Mil (Claud 2 + assuming a MoH with at least 5 Mil, giving all Legions an extra attack) -5  Illyrian Land strength = +12.

(The current Contract Proposal would not forbid Claudius from appointing and bringing a MoH either.)

This could affect the calculus about who should be sent where: if you need to whomp the Lusitanians hard now, the Dictator/MoH team would be the best to Deploy there.


Note that while Paullus Macedonicus would outright eliminate the Macedonian War D/S chances, Erax can't include him in the Contract unless he's Dictator, so with the Consuls already taken Paullus would not be able to Deploy. (He could still go as MoH, but then he couldn't use his special ability.)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on May 02, 2019, 09:43:54 PM
I don't fully understand, but I will accept these terms.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on May 03, 2019, 04:21:28 AM
Right, there's a MoH, silly me. Claudius can appoint as he wishes (remember the MoH can't be given a province later).

Let's amend the war proposal to:

Claudius takes 6 regulars + 2 veterans vs. the Lusitanians, for a total of 2 + 6 + 4 + MoH - 6 = +6 + MoH.
Fabius takes 4 regulars + 2 veterans vs. the Illyrians, for a total of 5 + 4 + 4 - 5 = +8.
Flaminius takes 8 regulars + 3 veterans vs. the Macedonians, for a total of 4 + 8 + 6 - 10 = +8.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on May 03, 2019, 07:11:23 AM
It may just be the antibiotics talking, but I'll agree to this.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on May 04, 2019, 09:59:39 AM
That works.  What do I need to do next?
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on May 04, 2019, 11:48:01 AM
Pick a Master of Horse, preferably with a 3+ MIL. Needs to be in Rome, in a faction and not in major office (exception: the Censor, because another one would soon be elected anyway). Bear in mind that whoever you choose, in practice, won't be eligible for governorship when we decide who gets the provinces.

After that you've already agreed to proposing the package deal above, so it is proposed, and you can pick a voting order (or not) if you want after which JP will handle it.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 04, 2019, 05:10:07 PM
If enough people sign onto the Contract (which may have happened already, my internet this weekend has been ssuuuuuuper unstable and I haven't been able to check yet), then voting order is irrelevant and isn't needed. No one can veto a Dictator Proposal (much less your appointment of some senator to MoH), which is where we're at now.

The Contract does not particularly spell out who will be sent to be Governors, though, so when we get to that point there will be a pause (deployment of the Dictator to war must come last) and possibly some 'manual' voting on a case-by-case basis.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 06, 2019, 07:32:57 AM
The current situation (status quo?! ;) ) is this:

Erax, playing the Roman Consul (thus the PM), has drafted a Contract.

Combining his original proposal set and his revision in accounting for the Dictator's (eventual) Master of Horse pick, here's the Contract draft:

QuoteI propose Claudius of the Plutocrats as Dictator, *provided* he agrees to the following package deal:

Aemilius gets Censor, as proposed before, provided he agrees to not prosecute anyone who votes for the package deal.

The Conservatives are sitting on large reserves but have the lowest income out of all the factions so they should get the Tax Farming concession (it will still leave them at the lowest income but it's better than nothing).

The Aristocrats get the Land Commissioner concession as a small compensation for losing Scipio.

The two provinces offer little to nothing until they develop, so I suggest we ask for volunteer governors who MUST be honest and stay honest until the provinces develop, we want them to develop quickly and not be a drain on Rome. This incidentally rules out both my Senators.

On to the wars.

Claudius takes 6 regulars + 2 veterans vs. the Lusitanians, for a total of 2 + 6 + 4 + MoH - 6 = +6 + MoH.
Fabius takes 4 regulars + 2 veterans vs. the Illyrians, for a total of 5 + 4 + 4 - 5 = +8.
Flaminius takes 8 regulars + 3 veterans vs. the Macedonians, for a total of 4 + 8 + 6 - 10 = +8.

There are some variabilities in this Contract which would have to be settled when I get to them.


Contract drafts per se cannot be vetoed because they aren't Proposals yet; and once this one gets going almost all its actions would be Proposals by a Dictator who cannot be vetoed. Consequently, once enough Players sign on for the Contract, I will process it automatically -- WITH THE PROVISION that Proposals on Governors still need to be voted on. (They can't be vetoed, but they can be voted down.) Also, it's possible the Censor may decide to prosecute someone who didn't sign onto the draft. (Such a prosecution could be vetoed.)


Right now, the Progressives (as Contract drafter) and the Plutocrats and the Populists have all signed on. (I'm assuming y'all agree with his revised combat deployment plan; if not, you should say so soon! ;) )

This is not yet a majority, I think, but I suspect one more Player's agreement would tip the scales. (My internet was super fluky this weekend so I haven't checked the votes yet.)

Therefore: we're waiting for a majority-vote agreement on this Contract draft to be reached. Or, alternately, someone playing a Tribune to kick off a different Contract draft.

Meanwhile, the Frog can be pre-planning whom to set up as Magister, which he can declare now or later if/once the Contract starts processing. Claudius IS NOT YET the Dictator! -- that's provisional on the Contract being validated by a majority of voting senators!
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on May 06, 2019, 07:56:57 AM
Actually, the two Consuls can appoint a Dictator both agree on without an election (which we do, provided Ethel accepted the contract, which he did). The way I see it, Claudius is the Dictator, he can appoint a MoH while we wait for the others to agree to the contract or not.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on May 06, 2019, 09:51:21 AM
Just to let everyone know, I may be out of pocket for the next 36 hours.  I'm not sure, as I will be away from home, and don't know what the internet access will be like
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 06, 2019, 11:57:29 AM
Quote from: Erax on May 06, 2019, 07:56:57 AM
Actually, the two Consuls can appoint a Dictator both agree on without an election (which we do, provided Ethel accepted the contract, which he did). The way I see it, Claudius is the Dictator, he can appoint a MoH while we wait for the others to agree to the contract or not.

While that's true, once he's the Dictator I'm not sure you can draft a Contract Proposal of this scope anymore; and Claudius being Dictator was part of the Contract Proposal to begin with.

So there are two options:

(1) You and Malize (i.e. your Consul senators) appointing Claudius is still part of the Contract Proposal which, not quite having received a majority of votes signing onto it, isn't valid yet -- therefore Claudius isn't Dictator yet (although, especially having agreed to the Contract, he can still be making and even announcing intentions about whom he'll appoint as MoH);

or

(2) You and Malize agree to go ahead and appoint Claudius as Dictator, meaning Claudius (thus the Frog effectively) is now the Presiding Magistrate and he's the one who would be making Contract Proposals of this sort. Of course he could use your draft of the Contract as a base, although if he made any alterations then the prior Players committing to the Contract (i.e. you and Malize) would get an opportunity to revise your agreement to it.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on May 07, 2019, 08:14:55 AM
In that case let's go with option 1, it's simpler.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on May 09, 2019, 09:04:43 PM
??
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 10, 2019, 08:05:20 AM
Status: the Contract still, I think, lacks one more player signing onto it, to secure a majority vote comittment, and thus start processing.

I say "I think" because I intended to check on that yesterday and got distracted by trundling around an expy of Jurassic Park as a potato with legs.  :coolsmiley:

Since Erax's faction controls few votes (still) compared to other players (even I.I. after being nuked), I feel pretty confident that even Malize plus the Frog haven't put his contract over into a majority yet. Whereas with Malize on board, one more player should do it.

Unless I missed someone else signing onto the Contract earlier...  ???
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on May 12, 2019, 09:58:40 AM
Aztank, I.I., Tripoli? Yes or no?
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 12, 2019, 08:50:19 PM
Slight updates:

1.) Discussions are happening in the backfield, invisible to the public. So the game hasn't stalled out (yet ;) ).

2.) In reply to an occasional question, yes I'm planning to do a video AAR, and I have started the first steps in its production. I don't have a schedule yet but roughly speaking I expect to act on this sooner instead of later, long before the game ends.

3.) In case I forgot to report it upthread -- because I think I did forget to report it! -- the other three Players who haven't signed onto the Contract yet, would potentially represent a -1 majority against any Proposal vote in the Contract if they agreed together against any particular point(s).
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on May 13, 2019, 05:34:26 AM
No
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on May 13, 2019, 09:27:28 AM
While we're waiting for all this backroom stuff to resolve, can I get  a rundown on provincial forces?

I've got:

Gallia Cisalpina - 4 Militia / 10, No fleets allowed.
Sardinia et Corsica - 0 Militia / (too small), 1 Fleet / (too small).
Sicilia - 2 Militia / 10, 1 Fleet / (too small).

Both Hispanias: 0 Militia / 5, No fleets allowed.

JP can you correct / fill in the blanks?
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on May 13, 2019, 11:01:08 AM
One more note: per the proposal before this one, which everyone voted in favor of, Aemilius of the Conservatives will be nominated censor and will not prosecute anyone who votes in favor (which was everyone), so that's going to happen whether this current proposal passes or not.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 13, 2019, 02:55:18 PM
I'll check the Provincials in an hour or two, after I get home.

Since everyone did sign on to the prior Contract, which included that provision, then yep whomever ends up as Presiding Magistrate this Turn must Propose Aemilius as Censor and everyone must vote in favor of that. So that will get resolved automatically regardless (and then he'll immediately pass the PM post back to whomever was PM, since by Contract he can't prosecute anyone who signed the contract to vote for him -- which was everyone).
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 13, 2019, 05:07:57 PM
Quote from: Erax on May 13, 2019, 09:27:28 AM
While we're waiting for all this backroom stuff to resolve, can I get  a rundown on provincial forces?

Okay, repeating the same order you used; altered figures in bold. (You know who's Governing what, and which one is currently Developed, but I'm adding those for other people's ease of reference.)

(Developed) Gallia Cisalpina - 4 Militia / 10; No fleets allowed. Currently Governed by the independent Senator Sulpicius, two terms remaining.

(Undeveloped) Sardinia et Corsica - 0 Militia / max 0!; 1 Fleet / max 3. Currently Governed by Acilius of the Plutocrats. two terms remaining.

(Undeveloped) Sicilia - 2 Militia / max 10; 1 Fleet / max 5. Currently Governed by Terentius of the Conservatives, two terms remaining.

(Undeveloped) Both Hispanias: 0 Militia / max 5; No fleets allowed. Currently Ungoverned. Both are under attack -- or more specifically under Revolt -- by the 1st Lusitanian War.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on May 13, 2019, 08:52:13 PM
I think I'll be voting against the proposal as tabled.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on May 13, 2019, 08:53:53 PM
I'm voting against the proposal
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 13, 2019, 09:27:58 PM
Okay, strictly speaking this isn't a vote per se, but a declaration that they shall not join the Contract.

Now: the three Players who joined the Contract can still kick it off! -- and I'll process it. It'll get as far as Claudius being appointed the new Dictator, and Claudius appointing some senator to be his Magister (unless someone succeeds at another assassination attempt ;) ), because those are not votes.

But if at any point these three Players (AzTank, II, and Tripoli) join together to vote against some subsequent Proposal made by the Dictator -- who will be Contracted to make certain Proposals going along -- they'll have a -1 majority against the Proposal and that'll be the end of the Contract. Whereas, on the other hand, the margin for a majority in favor is so narrow that if any one of them agrees to vote for any particular Contracted Proposal, that Proposal will pass and the Contract will march along to the next Proposal on the list. (Nor can those Proposals be vetoed, since they'd all be made by Dictator Claudius.)

It is technically possible that the whole Contract could still work on out to completion! If Erax wants to try, his senator (as the Roman Consul and thus currently the Presiding Magistrate) can try kicking it off and see how far it gets until when-if-ever the majority block team up to shut it down.

Or he can rescind the Contract in its current form and try to work out a better deal politically.  O:-)

(To be fair to Erax, we had had a few weeks of spotty activity before during and after Easter, so he was just trying to work out an agreement with whomever was passing by and checking in.  O0 )
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on May 14, 2019, 03:05:16 AM
I'm rescinding the current contract. I'd like to propose a similar deal with the same Dictator and war setup as the previous one, but we can discuss how to distribute MoH, Land Commissioner, Tax Farming and the two Provinces.  The three of you who voted against can message me or post here regarding what disposition would be acceptable for you to change your vote.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on May 14, 2019, 12:36:13 PM
One question: Do we even need a dictator?  When we did so in earlier turns, we needed the military boost, as Rome was under the very real threat of being defeated.  I do not believe that military situation currently exists.  As such, should that much power be given to one individual, absent a pressing need?
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 14, 2019, 12:55:20 PM
There's an existential threat to Rome even in these relatively dinky wars, simply because if nothing is done about them then next turn you're looking at four active wars -- which if you don't trim down then everyone loses at the end of next Turn's Combat Phase.

Moreover, more wars could show up during the next Forum Phase, and then you'd have more than four wars to deal with.

Also, the immanent war is going to buff the 1st Illyrian War next Turn if both are still around.

The Lusitanian War is about to absorb both Hispanic Provinces, which will buff its strength next Turn.

Those are the current facts on the table. If you don't Deploy a 3rd force (under a Dictator/MoH team), you should be able to wipe two of those wars -- it might even be easier since you'd be dividing your forces among fewer threats. The risk assessment is whether knocking out two wars is safe enough under the circumstances, compared to (somewhat less chance of) knocking out three wars.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on May 14, 2019, 03:19:57 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on May 14, 2019, 12:55:20 PM
There's an existential threat to Rome even in these relatively dinky wars, simply because if nothing is done about them then next turn you're looking at four active wars -- which if you don't trim down then everyone loses at the end of next Turn's Combat Phase.

Moreover, more wars could show up during the next Forum Phase, and then you'd have more than four wars to deal with.

Also, the immanent war is going to buff the 1st Illyrian War next Turn if both are still around.

The Lusitanian War is about to absorb both Hispanic Provinces, which will buff its strength next Turn.

Those are the current facts on the table. If you don't Deploy a 3rd force (under a Dictator/MoH team), you should be able to wipe two of those wars -- it might even be easier since you'd be dividing your forces among fewer threats. The risk assessment is whether knocking out two wars is safe enough under the circumstances, compared to (somewhat less chance of) knocking out three wars.

That goes to the crux of the question: whether the dictator is necessary.  We can take out two wars right now, without a dictator.  I don't have a problem with a dictator, if necessary.  However, I'm not sure that one is necessary.  Further, I'm a little worried about putting that level of power in one sides' hand unless it is absolutely necessary.  How many more wars are in this deck?  What are the greatest threats to Rome right now?  If it is the wars, and the only way to deal with the threat is a dictator, then I'm okay with a dictator.  I'm not sure that the case was made that this is what we need to be concerned with.  And that concerns me, as it seems that the issue being discussed is more related to the dividing of spoils than the health of the Republic.  And that, IMHO, is how we will lose the game.  We need to establish a stable Balance of Power that preserves the Republic.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on May 14, 2019, 06:06:53 PM
Regarding the Dictator, I believe we need one. D/S results can and do occur. If we fight only two wars we could get one D/S, then we'd have three wars next turn for sure plus any that might show up in the cards. I don't know how many wars are in the deck and I don't think we should know, to be honest. FWIW I believe they're spread out a bit more in this Era.

The balance of power is indeed a concern, that's why I proposed AzTank (having the lowest income) be given the Tax Farming concession and the other benefits distributed, for the most part, among the factions with least Influence. Do you realize you have a total influence of 97? That's just below myself, the Frog and AzTank combined.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 14, 2019, 07:05:02 PM
Just to clarify, I haven't tried making a case for dictator. I do have an opinion, but I haven't stated or argued for it.  O:-)

Re wars in the deck: this is Rome, so lots. ;) You do know for sure there's one more war coming up which you can reasonably expect in the Middle Era, because its Leaders are still around and wouldn't be expected to live until the Late Era -- and in fact historically one of its leaders did live into the equivalent of this game's Middle Era though he never fought against Rome again once his faction was defeated.

Specifically, Carthage has a 3rd War in the deck. This isn't a spoiler, because that data was on the cards; it's only a reminder.

And both Hamilcar and Hannibal are still alive off to the side waiting to see if they die of natural causes before the final Punic War surfaces.


Re D/S results: the one place that wouldn't be a risk right now, would be if you send Aemilius Paullus Macedonicus against the (2nd) Macedonian War: he voids their D/S chances, so if you load him up sufficiently he can win without loss easily. However, he isn't a Consul this Turn, so if you want to knock out the Macedonians right now you'll have to Dictator him.


Let me mention some relevant rules regarding the Lusitanian War: you can kind of fudge fighting the Lusitanian Revolt, because you can send someone out to be a Governor of one of the Spanish Provinces and Deploy an asskicking Garrison of Legions to be under his command. The Provinces have to defend against this War regardless, and you must send a Governor to both Provinces regardless (you can't just say well we'll let the Lusitanians have their Provinces for now and pick them back up later).

So the rules will essentially force you to fight the Lusitanian War this Turn, one way or another. You have three options: Deploy a Commander directly against it from Rome (which will have to be a Consul or a Dictator/MoH team); or make sure one of the Provinces has enough of a military Governor and Garrison Legions to feasibly (or surely) win against the War (according to my clarified and expanded rules on Provincial Wars, you can choose to attack the War from your Province rather than waiting to see which one it'll go for first, so you don't have to bulk a Garrison up in both Provinces -- but you do have to give each a Governor regardless!); or you can send two sacrificial senators to die being overrun, probably, in defeat (though the War does have to punch through the basic land strength of the Provinces plus the Mil Skill) and deal directly with a (slightly) stronger Lucy War next Turn.

Having said that, according to the card data you won't have to worry about the last two Lucy Wars until the next Era.

I'll go find and repost the photo of the Wars for ease of reference...
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 14, 2019, 07:06:46 PM
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/9618/aXmQEe.jpg)

This doesn't show the Punic Commanders waiting offstage over in the Curia.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on May 14, 2019, 10:00:40 PM
I appreciate the case you have made for a dictator. What does the senate think? Do we need one?  What are the other players thoughts?
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 15, 2019, 08:03:42 AM
I still haven't really made a case for Dictator. I've only pointed out that if you want to nuke the D/S chances for one of the Wars, you'll need one now (and specifically that senator in AzTank's Faction).

Y'all could instead focus on knocking out two or three of the other three wars and ignore Macedon this Turn, if you didn't want a Dictator.


Relatedly, how could you fight three wars without a Dictator this Turn? Send a high Mil Governor and good Legion Garrison support to one of the Hispanias to fight the Lusitanian revolt (and then some other senator to the other Hispania but not intended to fight); send one Consul to fight the 1st Ill War with lots of support; and then send one Consul to fight the 2nd Ill War!

The rules allow you to deploy against both of the two Illyrian Wars, even though one is only Immanent. The way that would work is:

1.) attacking the 2nd War would make it go immediately Active.

2.) being a second Matching War of that set, it would immediately double the basic land strength of the 1st War. So the 1st War would be 10 instead of 5. The D/S scores wouldn't be affected, so its crappy D5 / S17 chances would remain pretty low.

3.) Whoever is Deployed against the 1st War would have to fight it first. If you don't get a Victory, whoever is Deployed against the 2nd War just sits there, no risk. The newly Active 2nd Ill War would cost another 20 Talents during next Turn's Revenue Phase, but the War is Immanent: it is going to activate first thing next turn anyway and cost the Republic that cash! Activating it sooner won't make that any worse.

4.) If you do get a Victory against the 1st Ill War, then the Force Deployed against the 2nd Ill War gets to take its shot. And that War would only be its normal 4 Land strength, so you wouldn't need to send much to have good chances against it.

The only drawback is that if you knock out the 2nd Ill War this turn, then you'll create the Province of Illyricum -- which the 2nd Macedonian War fights against!

I would have to check the rules to see if they clarify what happens in that case. Would the 2nd Mace War then attack the Ungovernred Province? -- or do the rules allow the War to wait until next Turn? And if it does attack the Ungoverned Province (since it would be impossible to send a Governor there with a garrison before next turn), does it automatically roll over it, adding Illyricum Province to its basic land strength automatically, or does the Ungoverned Province have a technical chance to prevent an automatic Victory (through a fight without player characters present)?

If the rules don't already clarify, I'd lean in the direction of no War attacking newly acquired Ungoverned Provinces, so 2nd Mace wouldn't attack your new Province until next turn. (With a further clarification that if somehow there aren't enough senators to send to Govern everything -- which is entirely possible, and even increasingly possible as the game goes on! -- then an attacking War automatically rolls over and claims the Province.)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 15, 2019, 08:07:11 AM
(Naturally, by the same token, if you appoint a Dictator, you could attack all four Wars this Turn.  >:D At some point you have to start considering whether dispersal of Legionary force is being dangerously thin however.)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on May 15, 2019, 02:13:07 PM
One advantage of fighting three wars with a Dictator is that we can get three veterans, and that's the only way to increase our military power now that we're at max legions.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 15, 2019, 02:17:00 PM
By the same token, if you spread out your forces (not necessarily recommended) to fight four wars (with two Consuls, a Dictator, and a Governor), you can generate four new veterans -- as long as a regular legion survives each battle without also being outright defeated. (Disasters, Standoffs, and the other S result on the table, still generate a Veteran.)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on May 17, 2019, 07:16:06 PM
*wonders if he should go to his estate in the alban hills to escape the summer heat*


Lol
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on May 19, 2019, 01:42:35 PM
In the interests of breaking the apparent loggerheads Cato will (if necessary or appropriate) utilize his special ability and propose the following:


Cons get tax
Aristos land con

Appoint Aemilius Furius to Hispania1 (voiding his censor) as gov with 10+3
Replace as censor Cato (with same rules
Alternatively — Aemilius remains censor and Furius is appointed Hispania1 with same deployment


Claudius is appointed/exiles to Hispania2 which he will pledge to better with his vast personal coffers

FC Fabius 4+2 vs Ilyria1
RC Flaminius 4+2 vs Ilyria2

Everyone goes,  no prosecutions, move to next phase




Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 19, 2019, 11:00:59 PM
Since a Contract hasn't been majority-agreed to yet, Aemilius isn't Censor yet. No senator with a Major Office, including Censor, can be voted in as Governor, so he can't be voted as Censor and then as a Governor.

However, Cato could be voted Censor and then Aemilius could then be sent to whichever Hispania is stronger to fight against the Lusitanian Revolt. He needs sufficient number of Legions to be Deployed there with him as a Garrison, however, or he'll be steamrolled (most likely) by the Revolt!
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on May 20, 2019, 12:31:46 AM
 aemilius as censor was in the package deal that was made separately for the consulships to start with.   I'd imagine that is in force and binding. 

So I guess the alternative (Furius to hispania1) we send that bulk of legions (10+3...16 strength) and even a Mil 1 trained monkey would win (furius is 3, so 19-6= +13, should crush the Spain issue. (Or do 10+1 and split those other two at one each to the consular forces)

The 2 consuls take out the Illyrians this turn, and those legions could be used vs Macedonian next go round if the Hispania Force is needed for further action there or against other issues that arise

I've made the appropriate strike outs below
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 20, 2019, 07:15:17 AM
Ah, yes, literally everyone signed onto that Contract, so it's still binding as far as it goes: thus Aemilius gets to be Censor (presumably to be deployed against Macedon later), and he can't prosecute anyone who contracted to vote for him -- which was everyone.

I need to go back and look at that Consul contract again however: any terms must be processed and any new Contract must include the previously Contracted terms, BUT if for example his Proposal for Censor depended on Claudius of the Plutocrats being Dictator and yet that wasn't stipulated as a contracted appointment, THEN someone else might be appointed Dictator, and that character's Player wouldn't necessarily have to Propose Aemilius as Censor. Or if no Dictator is appointed (and if none was previously stipulated by the Consular contract), then the Roman Consul (played this turn by Erax) wouldn't necessarily be Contracted to Propose Aemilius as Censor.

Strictly speaking, you haven't used your Cato Tribune ability yet this turn, btw. You're drafting a Contract which you'd be willing to kick off with Cato's Tribune power if enough other players signed on but Erax for some reason didn't. Otherwise if he agreed to it then his senator as the Presiding Magistrate would kick things off under normal procedure instead, and Cato wouldn't need to use his Tribune ability this turn. (On the other hand, since his ability recharges, part of your plan might be to allow Erax to make token shows of resistance for sake of his senators with knights gaining a little extra influence! -- a cynical manipulation of popular support but perfectly within his Faction's special ability rules of course!)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 20, 2019, 08:36:05 AM
All right, prepare for some rules-insanity! -- or, save yourselves and skip down to the asteriks for the conclusion:

**** LOOK AWAY, LOOK AWAY NOOOWWWWWW! *****

(This isn't plot spoilers for the game, I'm just trying to give an option to keep eyes from glazing out.)

[spoiler]To consolidate information:

The senate phase started with Dictator Scipio of the Aristocrats as Presiding Magistrate, but before he (i.e. I.I.) could do anything, the Frog's preplanned assassination attempt triggered and, with lucky dice, succeeded. The PM post devolved to Claudius, the Roman Consul, who then voluntarily renounced the post as a show of good faith, devolving it to the Field Consul controlled by Erax of the Progressives.

Erax drafted a Contract which would Propose his other senator Flaminius, and Fabius of the Populists, as the new Consuls, with a further stipulation that Contracted Players should vote for Aemilius as Censor, and that if AzTank agrees to this Contract then if Aemilius is elected Censor then he cannot prosecute anyone who agreed to this Contract.

We'll call this the Consul Contract for this Turn. All Players ended up signing onto the Contract.

Since all Players joined this Contract, any new Contract must factor in these results going forward:

1.) Only Flam and Fabius Maximus can be Deployed as Consuls (Roman and Field respectively, since they agreed on that subsequently among themselves). They can't be voted as Governors on the other hand (because they already hold Major Office).

2.) Any other Forces Deployed to fight this Turn will require a Dictator or a Governor as Force Commander.

3.) "I propose Flaminius and Fabius of the Populists, with a package deal for Aemilius of the Conservatives as Censor provided he does not prosecute." -- Erax's wording necessarily implies that any Players who joined this Turn's Consul Contract (which is everyone), are necessarily required to vote for Aemilius as Censor this Turn. HOWEVER...!

4.) ...due to the vagueness of the language, I will allow that the only situation where Aemilius MUST be Proposed as Censor, is if Erax drafts any new Contract this turn before Censor elections. In other words, any Contract drafted by Erax before Censor election, must include Proposing Aemilius as Censor, whether that Proposal will be made by Flaminius as Roman Consul, or by someone else('s character) as Dictator, or by Tribune action (whichever way Erax's Contract draft stipulates but he must stipulate it by some method.)

5.) Any Contract draft presented by Erax this Turn AFTER Censor election, obviously does not need to include Aemilius (or anyone else) Proposed as Censor this Turn (which would then be impossible or redunant). But without having stipulated a time limit on his Contract, Erax would be required to include any Players agreeing to the Contract to Propose Aemilius for Censor at the first available opportunity going forward.

The tricky part here is that all Players Contracturally owe one unified vote for Aemilius as Censor AT THE FIRST AVAILABLE OPPORTUNITY. And Erax owes Aemilius one Proposal as Censor AT ERAX'S FIRST AVAILABLE OPPORTUNITY. These aren't necessarily conjoined to be in the same Contract however.[/spoiler]


The upshot is this: the easiest way forward is for Erax to further draft a Contract for agreement which includes Aemilius as Censor this Turn, which then all Players (including Erax) will fulfill their Contract voting for this turn.

BUT, if you really thought you needed Aemilius Macedonicus free to go be a Dictator this Turn, to Deploy (with his chosen MoH) against the Macedonian War (or alternately if you thought you needed him as the combat Governor of Hispania), there's a way to get that done: have someone other than Erax present a Contract draft with someone other than Macedonicus Proposed as Censor. The alternate draft will need to make provision, whether by Dictator or by Tribune usage, for someone other than Erax to Propose an alternate Censor -- which Erax would then be required to vote against (but as along as enough other Players sign on that won't be a problem, and Erax will get a little free Influence!) But the Contract can otherwise still include Flaminius as the one Proposing things or with the Consuls agreeing to appoint a Dictator who will Propose things going forward, which Erax could agree to.

In that case, Aemilius will still be owed a Proposal as Consul by one of Erax's senators at his first available opportunity; and will still be owed a unanimous vote as Consul by all Players at their first available opportunity.


***** TL;DR VERSION *****

In conclusion: the simplest way to resolve the already-Contracted actions will be for Erax to Propose Aemilius' as Censor this Turn somehow (whether in his own Contract or someone else's), which all Players would then vote for. But if y'all thought you needed Aemilius this Turn somewhere else, I'd allow that with some proper political finagling.  O:-)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 20, 2019, 05:00:59 PM
Some thoughts on divvying up the responsibilities:

The priority war must be the Lusitanian Revolt, which will pick up the Hispanias if it isn't stopped. It can be stopped by staging fight inside one of that War's two targets. Ulterior Hispania has the strongest land strength of the two (2 instead of only 1), so the fight should be staged there. The two senators with 4 or 5 Mil skill are I.I.'s new Cornelius family replacement (Mil 4), and Tripoli's ascending Aelius family Senator (Mil 5).

(Note to I.I., you had a couple of harvested Influence points lying around, both of which could go to the new Cornelian family Senator, who certainly needs as much catchup help as he can get, so I have provisionally assigned them there. He now has Inf 7. If you'd rather they go somewhere else, let me know. At this late date I can't recall which of your other Senators can't get one of those points, so I'm willing to assign them as you wish.)

A Force needs to bring 6 (Lusitanian land strength) + 11 (slots before only Victories on the results) - 2 (Hispania Ulterior Land Strength) = 13 combat power to guarantee only Victories. Or 17 combat power to guarantee no casualties. (D/S risk aside!)

A Mil 4 senator (like Cornelius) with 4 Vets (4 + 4 Vet + 4 Mil = 12) and 1 regular Legion Deployed as a Garrison with him could get the Victory thought you'd be risking some losses. This would leave 3 Vets over to Deploy somewhere else and 17 regulars. (Note that you can switch out equivalents as you wish, two regulars for 1 Vet, or reduce things a little if you send Tripoli's guy, or if you send Macedonicus and politically finagle a way to avoid Proposing him for Censor this Turn as per my prior post's details.)


From this point it's a question of how much you want to risk no Victory. If you go after both IllWars, you'll need to bring 21 effective power against IllWar1 for only Victory (with possible casualties) and 15 striking power against IllWar 2. I don't think it is mathematically possible to do both with the Consuls and units remaining: FabiMax's 5 Mil + 3 Vets + 3 Vets extra strike + 10 regulars gets you only Victories (possibly some casualties, halved by FabiMax as Field Consul) leaving 7 regulars + Flam's 4 Mil = 11. That would leave most of the (i.e. four of the six) chances for Stalemate.

If you try to fight only the 1st IllWar (but not its sequel) plus the Macedonian War, with only the Consuls, you'll get a similar result except one point worse. (Because the Macedonian War would be the 10 point, and the 1st Ill would be normally one point stronger than the 2nd. Same point spread as for the two IllWars, plus 1.)

Conclusion: it isn't possible to fight three Wars with two Consuls and a Governor, unless you're willing to risk not only Legionary casualties (not even counting D/S casualty risks) but also the possibility of one of your Wars risking Stalemate.

Options:

1.) Pick two Wars and send enough units to safely push home with no losses on each of them (aside from D/S risks). Presumably the Lusitanian Revolt MUST be one of those two Wars, unless you have senators you want to be killed off as Governors when the Revolt (surely or almost surely) rolls over the Provinces!

2.) Appoint a Dictator and let him bring a MoH. Even then you're probably stuck with prosecuting only three of the four Wars and I'm still not entirely sure you can whittle down all three to only Victories, even if you bring Tripoli's two Ultra-Generals. In this case Flaminius the (Mil 4) Roman Consul would presumably stay home.

3.) Pick only one War, although that seems a waste of manpower. (But I include it to be comprehensive.)

4.) Pick three Wars (with two Consuls and a Spanish Governor doing the fighting) and accept the significant risk of possible Stalemate on one of them.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on May 20, 2019, 10:19:06 PM
Hey, at this point I'd piss on a spark plug if I thought it'd help jumpstart things

I honestly don't care what we do anymore as long as it's doing something, I understand there's been trauma in the ranks, but it's time we get ourselves sorted and move the clock along.

Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on May 22, 2019, 12:00:03 PM
All right, new Proposal, this time without a Dictator.

Aemilius gets Censor, as proposed before, and agrees to not prosecute anyone (I have to keep this in the contract).

The Progressives get the Land Commissioner concession.

The Conservatives get the Tax Farming concession, plus first pick from the three available provinces (considering that we can recall our non-aligned governor). They can nominate one of their Senators and everyone who is a part of the contract agrees to vote for that candidate.

The Plutocrats get second pick from the available provinces, as above.

The Populists get third pick from the available provinces.

Any remaining provinces can cycle back through the Conservatives - Plutocrats - Populists until they have no more candidates they wish to nominate or all provinces are accounted for.

On to the wars.

Fabius takes 8 regulars + 4 veterans vs. the Lusitanians, for a total of 5 + 8 + 8 - 6 = +15.
Flaminius takes 10 regulars + 3 veterans vs. the Illyrians, for a total of 4 + 10 + 6 - 5 = +15.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 22, 2019, 02:03:35 PM
Yes, you can always recall any Governor during any Senate Phase, so Sulpy can be recalled. He's a non-player character so he isn't going to complain. ;)

I'll need to look over this, this afternoon, to parse it in a valid procedural order.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on May 22, 2019, 04:57:04 PM
Quote from: Erax on May 22, 2019, 12:00:03 PM
All right, new Proposal, this time without a Dictator.

Aemilius gets Censor, as proposed before, and agrees to not prosecute anyone (I have to keep this in the contract).

The Progressives get the Land Commissioner concession.

The Conservatives get the Tax Farming concession, plus first pick from the three available provinces (considering that we can recall our non-aligned governor). They can nominate one of their Senators and everyone who is a part of the contract agrees to vote for that candidate.

The Plutocrats get second pick from the available provinces, as above.

The Populists get third pick from the available provinces.

Any remaining provinces can cycle back through the Conservatives - Plutocrats - Populists until they have no more candidates they wish to nominate or all provinces are accounted for.

On to the wars.

Fabius takes 8 regulars + 4 veterans vs. the Lusitanians, for a total of 5 + 8 + 8 - 6 = +15.
Flaminius takes 10 regulars + 3 veterans vs. the Illyrians, for a total of 4 + 10 + 6 - 5 = +15.

Voting Yes, including any alterations Jason may have to make
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 22, 2019, 07:16:33 PM
Okay, Erax's new Contract draft, in procedural order:

Third Mandatory Business, no Dictator appointed or put to open vote by the Consuls (Erax and Malize). Fourth Mandatory thus skipped, too.

Fifth Mandatory Business, Censor election: per the prior Consul Contract, Erax is required to give Aemilius Macedonicus a Censor Proposal as soon as possible if Erax's Roman Consul is PM (and so making Proposals). AzTank (AmMac's player) is required by agreement to the prior Contract, not to Prosecute the senators of any Player who agreed to that Contract (which is everyone), the next time AmMac becomes Censor (which would be this turn now).

Note that all Players would be required to vote for AemMac on this Censor Proposal in any case, whether they agree to this Contract or not, due to prior Contract agreement by all Players!

Sixth Mandatory Business: AzTank would gain PM duty, and would automatically hand it back to Erax's senator without Prosecutions, per the prior Contract (since all Players agreed to vote for AemMac as Censor, at his next Proposal for the Office, and he agreed not to Prosecute anyone who agreed to that Contract.)

Seventh Mandatory Business, Governors: the available Provinces are restricted to the two new Hispanias, and Sulpy's post at Gallia Cisalpina. All other Provinces already have Player characters as Governors, and no Player's senator will be voted to replace them this Turn. All joiners of this Contract will vote for Governors according to the following criteria.

Governor stage one: AzTank would get first pick to send out Furius (because Paullus will be the new Censor by then, and Terentius is already a Governor).

The Frog gets second pick, to send Claudius or Fulvius (since Acilius is already a Governor).

Malize of the Populists will choose a senator (not Field Consul FabiMax) to send to the remaining third Province.

Note that no one will be required to defend the Hispanias under this Contract plan.

Into Other Business:

Erax chooses a Progressive senator to be Proposed to get the Land Commission Concession. (Reminder: currently this is temporary and lasts only one Turn. It'll be up for vote again next turn.)

AzTank chooses a Conservative senator to be Proposed to get the respawned Tax Farming Concession.

FabiMax the Field Consul will Deploy to the Lusitanian Revolt, bringing 8 regulars + 4 Veterans (and Fleets for support as needed).

Flaminius the Roman Consul will Deploy to the 1st Illyrian War, bringing 10 regular and 3 Veteran Legions (and Fleets for support as needed).

With his departure, the Senate will close for this Turn.


Note: I have now sent an 'open' p-mail to all players alerting y'all of the Contract draft.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on May 22, 2019, 08:01:28 PM
Ill vote in favor.  Let me know if things get to where I should pick. 
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on May 22, 2019, 08:13:23 PM
Quote from: malize on May 20, 2019, 10:19:06 PM
Hey, at this point I'd piss on a spark plug if I thought it'd help jumpstart things

I honestly don't care what we do anymore as long as it's doing something, I understand there's been trauma in the ranks, but it's time we get ourselves sorted and move the clock along.

Sorry for the delay.  We are discussing a slight addendum to the contract.  Nothing that should be controversial. 
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 22, 2019, 08:59:00 PM
I've checked over what Tripoli et al want to add as provisions and they're legal, but I'll let them present their request publicly.

In the process, however, as I was checking over my notes on rules about "public deals" (which I've been calling "Contracts", distinct from private deals which are not enforceable), I ran across a reminder about the three topics which cannot be included per the Living Rules be enforceable public deals (i.e. Contracts).

None of these topics are what Tripoli et al are discussing privately, by the way. Also, these can be private deals but then they aren't enforceable by any gamekeeper(s).

1.) no one can include a provision to assassinate someone. I'm going to add a house rule to my flowsheet which further excludes a provision to prevent prosecutions for assassination conspiracy. Relevantly, the current Contract draft would not prevent this anyway since Special Prosecutions trigger automatically, not by the choice of the Censor, but just in case I think a clarification should be added. Assassination rules are carefully balanced and Special Prosecutions are an important part of that balance!

2.) no one can include provisions requiring rebellion or loyalty in case of a Player rebelling against the Senate. (You might be able to include provisions ABOUT loyalty or rebellion, but those are grey areas and I'd have to judge the fairness on a case basis. This means a Player cannot use a Contract to promise that you yourself will not to rebel against the Senate, or to always be loyal!)

So far these topics haven't come up yet for public Contracting: refusing automatic CfL appointment yes, which I allowed partly because I knew there was a Law coming which would make the same effect for everyone generally; and I would allow a Contract excluding one's self from ever seeking legal vote for CfL. I can see how for tension balance, though, loyalty-rebellion Contracts should be avoided. We should never be entirely sure via game mechanics that Tripoli (to take the most obvious example -- again, this is not what they're discussing topically) won't return to Rome after a Victory, or from a Provincial staging ground as Governor, at the head of a rebel army!


But the third exclusion was annoying...  :pullhair:

3.) Consul elections cannot be part of Contracts.

You will all recall that Consul elections have often been part of Contracts, including the first one this Turn!

Pondering this exclusion, I don't understand and can't see what harm Contracted Consul elections would do, or have done to our game.

Thus, if Players want to keep Consul elections as part of Contracts, I'm willing to keep allowing it as a house rule. I would also be okay if someone figured out, and argued for, the purpose of forbidding Consul election agreements in Contracts.  O:-)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on May 23, 2019, 05:02:43 AM
JP, you need to add the two Concessions to your revised contract.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 23, 2019, 12:52:42 PM
Quote from: Erax on May 23, 2019, 05:02:43 AM
JP, you need to add the two Concessions to your revised contract.

Ack! -- true, updated now. Those would be done in Other Business before Deploying Forces with Commanders.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on May 23, 2019, 01:57:15 PM
I am good with the proposed contract
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 23, 2019, 06:09:32 PM
I'll have to check but I think that's a majority voting commitment!

If so, I'll start processing presently, although of course I'll have to stop occasionally to ask certain Players about the preferences.

Note that automatically processing this, does not preclude someone, whether in the Contract or not, from interjecting another Proposal by Tribune effect, although Contractors must not do so in a way that would break the flow of Proposals. Any Players who haven't signed on (currently I.I. and Tripoli) can still sign on at any time, and their votes will still be counted for Censor (since they did already Contract for that), but so far as I know their votes against any position would not be enough to overturn anything nor create effects for themselves, so I won't be checking if they want to vote no on any point.

Either of them might however choose to use a Tribune effect (if one or both of them have one -- they each have one unplayed Intrigue card), to interrupt the flow with a veto or with an alternate Proposal. The Contract does not stipulate that Contractors cannot vote on alternate Proposals mutually exclusive to the Contract Proposals, but whether an interruptor can muster enough support to make his sacrifice worth the effort is a whole other matter!

I mention this not because I know of any plots (which I don't), but because this Contracting has been particularly difficult and such principles might be important later going forward.  O:-)

To give anyone who might be plotting, a little more time to get any plans in order, just in case, I'll wait until tomorrow afternoon to start processing. Probably. Unless I hear different later tonight perhaps.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on May 24, 2019, 01:29:31 PM
I'll vote for
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 24, 2019, 03:22:51 PM
That's certainly a super-majority, so here y'all go!

1.) Consuls Plautius and FabiMax agree not to appoint a Dictator. Thus also no MoH.

(Edited to update: neurons in my head rebelled and decided to switch up with each other, so that I forgot that Plautius, not Flaminius, was the new Roman Consul going forward this Turn. I originally typed 'Flaminius' or 'Flam' in the accounts below, but I think I've repaired them all properly to Plautius. If I haven't this note explains the situation at least.  L:-) #:-) )
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 24, 2019, 03:25:33 PM
2.1.) Roman Consul Plautius Proposes AzTank's Statesman AemiMac as the new Censor.

2.2.) All Players vote for him (per prior Consul contract this turn).

2.3.) Furius ceases to be Censor.

2.4.) AemiMac now Censor, adds +5 Inf, up to 22. Conservative Faction total now 43.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 24, 2019, 03:28:45 PM
3.1.) AemiMac takes over Presiding Magistrate post from Roman Consul Flam temporarily.

3.2.) Per prior Contract, AzTank cannot Prosecute the Minor and Major suspicions of any senators of Players who voted for him, which is everyone.

3.3.) All current suspicions deleted (except on despoiled Provinces, which count elsewhere next turn).

3.4.) AemiMac hands PM duties back over to Roman Consul Plautius.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 24, 2019, 03:40:18 PM
4.1.) AzTank chooses a Province to be given to his senator Furius to Govern. (Furius is the only senator he has who is eligible.)

This can be the Developed Province of Gallia Cisalpina, or one of the Undeveloped Hispanias.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/3627/zkCYQS.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/3370/fQ2eOj.jpg)

Per the plan, Furius won't be responsible for defending anything (this Turn at least). Cisalpine Gaul will obviously generate more income for you if you decide to despoil it. Despoiling the Hispanias in their Undeveloped state will be naturally less profitable, and will reduce the chances of them being Developed each Turn. (Your Governor doesn't get to keep local taxes or state income in any case.)

I'll let AzTank know his choice is up.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on May 24, 2019, 08:54:54 PM
Gaullia it is.

Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 25, 2019, 10:26:34 AM
I should qualify before I continue, that I double-checked the rules and a senator CAN be Governor of any number of Provinces! (The Living Rules don't talk about this a lot -- only as as an aside to other topics -- but I did put it into the flowchart rule compilation.)

He must however be living on at least one of them, and not in Rome. Relatedly, he can only add his Mil Skill to help the Province he is currently living in. By the same token he can evacuate a Province under attack to a different Province under his administration, but not back to Rome!

The rules are unclear (to say the least) about how this works exactly, but logically a Player would declare at the start of the Combat Phase which Province his multi-Gov senator would be staying in during Combat.

I'll proceed along, with a post hoc provision for AzTank to allow Terentius, who is already Governing Sicilia, to retroactively add Cisalpine Gaul to his administration rather than send out Furius.

NOTE HOWEVER! -- a Player cannot legally shuffle Provinces among his Governors. The Proposal would be retroactively altered for Terrance to be voted as Governor of Gaul, because I didn't recall the rule and AzTank seemed not to have any options other than Furius for Governor.

This distinction can be important for two reasons.

First, a Player might very much not want so many of his senators out of Rome, because they also reduce his voting power during the Senate Phase! (Though not his Faction's overall Influence.) By the same token, it is ENTIRELY LEGAL for political gamesmanship to elect someone (else's) multiple senators as Governors to nuke that Player's voting power! -- the only exception (aside from the usual Major Office exceptions) being that a senator who has just returned to Rome from being a Governor (his term having expired at the end of the Income Phase), cannot be forced to go out again this Turn (although his Player can still voluntarily agree to accept the vote even if he himself didn't vote for it).

Second, a Player might want more than one of his senators -- or might want one particular senator! -- to benefit from collecting Spoils and/or to benefit from Influence gains by Developing Provinces. (This can be especially important for Expansionist Faction Players.)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 25, 2019, 11:35:26 AM
4.0.) final Mandatory Business, Governors.

4.1.1.) AzTank chooses Gallia Cisalpina for his request, and Furius to be Proposed.

(Note that because I forgot the rule for multiple Province Governance, Larry will be allowed to retroactively request Terentius be Proposed as the Governor of CisGaul instead, at his discretion, so long as Larry does this before the Revenue Phase next Turn. See prior post for details, and for pros/cons in doing things various ways.)

4.1.2.) Roman Consul Plautius Proposes Furius (or retroactively Terentius perhaps) as Governor of CisAlpine Gaul.

4.1.3.) All Contracted Players vote in agreement with this.

4.1.4.) Sulpicius is Recalled automatically from Governing CisGaul, and returns to the Roman Forum (where he hangs out smirking at how rich he is, as usual. ;) )

4.1.5.) Furius (unless retroactively Terentius) departs Rome for CisGaul. (If Terrence retroactively, then AzTank can choose which Province he will base in.) Voting power drops by 3 Or and 2 knights to 6. (Unless Ter retro.)

4.1.6.) Province card is given to the new Governor, and the term set to 3.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 25, 2019, 11:38:57 AM
The Frog can now ask for one of his senators, INCLUDING ACILIUS, to be Proposed as the Governor of one of the Hispanias of his choice.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/3961/wnQoUQ.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/3370/fQ2eOj.jpg)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 25, 2019, 05:54:34 PM
4.2.1.) The Frog chooses to ask for Acilius (who is already a Governor) to also be given administration over Hispania Citerior (since it has slightly better Spoil opportunities).

4.2.2.) Roman Consul Plautius Proposes Acilius be given the first Governorship of Hispania Citerior.

4.2.3.) The Contracted Players vote for it, and pass the Proposal with their majority.

4.2.4.) Acilius gains the card for this Province. The term is set to 3. Presumably he does not immediately go lend his military logistic skill to its defense, since it's under attack and he has the option to continue basing in Sardina and/or Corsica. ;)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 25, 2019, 06:04:08 PM
Malize can now ask for one of his senators to be assigned to Govern Hispania Ulterior (the remaining Province).

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/9996/BFKatV.jpg)

This is the old pre-Senate snapshot, and doesn't show Fabius Maximus as the Field Consul (or a few other updates). He's the only invalid option; any one of the others can go. (I would take an updated snapshot, but I'm uploading a video for demonstrating Plane Mechanic Simulator and I don't want to risk crashing the upload. This should be sufficient.  O:-) )

Remember, whomever you send out, you'll be reducing your voting power by his absence! Relatedly, Cato can't function as a Tribune if he's out Governing a Province.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on May 25, 2019, 08:03:35 PM
I'd send Aurelius...unless it will impact his incomes (but I'm also guessing I could shift those still during this turn if it does?)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 25, 2019, 11:00:31 PM
Concession connections stay with senators wherever they go, so Aurelius will be fine.

In fact, you yourself had to demonstrate this rule on the turn you joined the game, because right after you gave one of your senators his first Concession (...I'll have to check, but it might have been Aurelius!) he got randomly captured by the Latin Era Barbarian Raid historical event! But his Concession helped generate a little ongoing cash for him personally to help buy back his ransom sooner rather than later.

In that case, the Concession (and his normal income) couldn't be gathered to the Faction Treasury, although you could distribute other income to his personal Treasury to help him pay off sooner. But Concessions function normally otherwise. We've had at least one Commander with a Concession, who had to stay out as Proconsul for a turn or two, and I made sure to check that it was legal for him to continue sending income back to his Faction (I think it was Tripoli's Militarists) and distributions back to him. It'll be the same for Governors.

Now, if your Governor rebels (as the Prime rebel or in support of another one of your senators leading a rebellion), then your accounting changes somewhat. I'd have to check if Concessions stay with rebels, since generally they represent locally developed income in and around Rome itself. The rules about your distribution options would shift, too.

Anyway, I'm about to pass out tonight, so I'll get back to processing tomorrow.

Meanwhile! -- speaking of Concessions, there are actually two respawned Tax Farmings to be handed out, not one. So we'll have three Concessions to vote on, not only two! I don't think Erax's Contract noticed the other Tax Farmer.

Concessions aren't mandatory to parcel out, so we don't necessarily have to do that this Turn. But neither is there anything preventing Erax (controlling the PM) or someone else (by Tribune play) making a Proposal this Turn, in the middle of the Contract procession, for distributing that other Tax Farm to a senator. It would have to be voted on normally, of course; but it wouldn't break the Contract.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on May 26, 2019, 09:35:18 AM
Can we leave a concession on the table to be assigned next turn? I think we've divided everything up rather well.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 26, 2019, 01:10:56 PM
Yep, Concession assignment is optional business, not Mandatory. Not a problem.

Back from church and proceeding on!

4.3.1.) Malize now asks for Aurelius to be sent to Govern the Hispania Ulterior.

4.3.2.) Roman Consul Plautius Proposes Aurelius be sent to HispUlt as its Governor.

4.3.3.) All Contracted Players vote a majority in favor.

4.3.4.) Aurelius receives the Province card, setting the term to 3, and thus departing Rome.

4.3.5.) Populist vote tally goes down 3 Ora, 2 Knights, and 4 Pop, from 37 to 28, as Aurelius departs.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 26, 2019, 01:20:23 PM
That finishes Mandatory Business.

Next up, Erax didn't specify in the Contract details which of his senators he would Propose to get the Land Commissioner Concession.

So, Erax? Flaminius or Plautius? Either one would be valid.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/9350/E52JUr.jpg)


Meanwhile, the same question is coming up for AzTank regarding which senator he wants Proposed to receive a Tax Farming Concessions. Here's the current snapshot as a reminder (though remember, due to my forgetting the option, you can retroactively ask for Terentius to also be Governor of CisGaul instead of Furius, if you want Fury and his votes back in Rome):

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/7408/h22yqv.jpg)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on May 26, 2019, 01:29:04 PM
The concession to Furious
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on May 26, 2019, 01:53:48 PM
Give it to Plautius.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 26, 2019, 03:31:50 PM
5.) Other business starts with Contracted Concession Proposal/votes.

5.1.1.) Erax Proposes Plautius should receive the Land Commissioner Concession for this Turn. (It will go back to the Forum next turn.)

5.1.2.) All Contracted Players majority vote in agreement.

5.1.3.) Plautius gets the Concession card.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 26, 2019, 03:38:53 PM
5.2.1.) AzTank requests for Furius (who is still out Governing CisGaul) to receive the first of the newly available Tax Farming Concessions. This is perfectly legal, btw.

5.2.2.) Roman Consul Plautius Proposes that Furius receive Tax Farming 1.

(Note: I've been accidentally calling Flaminius the Roman Consul, but this turn it's actually Plautius. This is despite the fact that I'm looking at the board on TTS on a regular basis while processing the Contract... {smdh})

5.2.3.) All Contracted Players majority vote in favor.

5.3.4.) Furius receives the Tax Farming 1 card.


Erax decides to wait until next turn to deal with the other available Tax Farming card in the forum, so moving on...
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 26, 2019, 03:52:51 PM
6.1.1.) Roman Consul Plautius Proposes to Deploy Field Consul FabiMax in Command of two Support Fleets; four Veteran Legions; and eight Regular Legions; against the Lusitanian War.

6.1.2.) All Contracted Players vote for majority agreement.

6.1.3.) FabiMax and his Force leave Rome to the War.

6.1.4.) Populist vote tally of 28 goes down 2 Ora, 3 knights, and 2 Pop, to 21.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 26, 2019, 04:01:15 PM
6.2.1.) Last, Roman Consul Plautius Proposes to Deploy himself to fight the 1st Illyrian War, with ten Regular and three Veteran Legions (plus three Support Fleets).

6.2.2.) The Contracted Players majority vote in agreement.

6.2.3.) Plautius and his Force depart Rome for the War.

6.2.4.) Progressive normal vote tally of 7 goes down 1 Ora and 2 knights to 4.


With the Presiding Magistrate's departure from Rome, the Senate Phase automatically closes for this Turn.

Next up, processing the Combat Phase for Turn Fourteen!
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 26, 2019, 05:17:17 PM
TURN FOURTEEN -- COMBAT PHASE
-----------------------------

Reporting the first battle this Turn:

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/2766/WLf8Vr.jpg)

The Lusitanian Revolt vs. Field Consul Quinctius Fabius Maximus Verrucosus Cuncator of the Populists, along with the 1st through 4th Veteran Legions (inclusive); the 6th through 9th Legions; and the 12th through 15th Legions; plus the 1st and 2nd Fleets in Support!

Total Legions: 12 (8+4)
Total Veterans: +4
HQ (Mil Skill): +5 (all used)
Lusitanian Land Strength: -6
No enemy leaders or event factors.

DRM = 12+4+5-6 = +15 This will be enough for an automatic no-loss victory on any roll, unless a D6 or S11/16 is rolled.

3d6 = 6+4+1... which is 11! -- the Lusitanians, heavily outmatched, fight to a  Standoff!

Support Fleets are unaffected. The Legions suffer 25% casualties rounded up. 12 * .25 = exactly 3 casualties. However, Fabius Maximus' special ability reduces all casualties by half, rounded up. 3/2 = 1.5 casualties, rounded up to 2. Seasoned Veterans mean all non-Vets must roll for survival first. Sequentially high to low: 15th rolls odd; 14th and 13th roll even; 12th rolls odd. 12th and 15th Regular Legions return to the Force Pool. The oldest surviving Regular Legion is the 6th; it becomes Veteran. FabiMax (provisionally) earns its Loyalty marker.


Fabius Maximus loses 1 Pop (down from 2 to 1) for losing 2 Legions. He draws 2 Mortality chits:

5, the Claudians: Claudius of the Plutocrats gains 1 Pop (from 2 to 3) for losing a relative in the battle.

x2! -- the chit goes back and the bag reshuffled to draw two more families!

24 -- not politically active yet.

2!! -- that's the Fabian family!

Fortunately (sort of), this is the final chit drawn, so Field Consul Fabius doesn't die. He is taken Captive instead.

Fabius Maximus does not become a Proconsul, but retains his Office until the next Senate Phase.

His family, unfortunately, is not yet politically active again (still respawning in the Curia); so while Malize can distribute cash to him, Fabius cannot generate any revenue at all during the Income Phase.

Ransom = 10 Talents or twice Influence if greater; so 2x9 = 18 Talents. Malize can pay this directly from his Faction Treasury (currently 10) at any time; or FabiMax can pay this from his personal treasury (currently 0) at any time. At that time, Fabius will return to Rome.

Fabius may be rescued on a 1d6 roll of >=5 (with DRM adjusted by luck events) if the Lusitania War is Defeated; otherwise he will be killed by his Captors before being rescued.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 26, 2019, 05:19:22 PM
The Lusitanian War still has 9 Legions Deployed against it (along with minimum necessary Fleet Support), which is more than its minimum Force requirement of 6; and it has been attacked this Turn; so even with Fabius taken Captive the War counts as Prosecuted. The Force and its Support Fleets stay Deployed for now.

Having been Prosecuted, without a Disaster or Defeat result, the Lusitanian War will not go on to attack a Province this Turn. It would have attacked Hispania Citerior (its leftmost printed target Province under Roman Governorship.)

Checking the rules over carefully -- which had to be logically clarified and expanded somewhat in my Flowchart -- let me correct myself on a point: Governors (despite how the Living Rules put it, even as late as April 2018) cannot attack Wars! They can only defend against incoming attacks from Wars. (The official rules are inconsistent about how they put this.)

That means a Governor in Hispania Ulterior would not be able to use that Province as a base to launch his own attack on the Lusitanian War -- but neither would he have to defend against it (at first). Nor could the Governor of Hispania Citerior attack it, per se; but he would be the first line of defense against it, should it be Unprosecuted or create a Disaster or Defeat.

Relatedly, Acilius of the Plutocrats will be on the defense next Turn, if someone doesn't sufficiently distract that War! (Although he can choose, at the start of next Turn's Combat Phase, to be in Sardi/Corsi instead and let the Province defend itself.)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on May 26, 2019, 05:30:11 PM
Go ahead and pay ransom
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 26, 2019, 05:51:33 PM
Can't pay ransom yet: they require twice his Influence which is 18 Talents, and you only have 10 in your Faction Treasury whereas he himself has none. (10 is however the minimum ransom, which I think is what you had to pay last time...?)

I forgot to mention that so long as he's held Captive, his Influence doesn't count in your Faction total. I've flipped his card upside down, both at the War and on your mat (TTS allows me to make easy duplicates), as a reminder.

You should be able to pay his freedom during the upcoming Income Phase however.

(You can also try asking for donations, publicly and/or privately, perhaps in return for some political considerations.  :coolsmiley: But any such cash won't fully arrive until the Income Phase.)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 26, 2019, 05:54:26 PM
So much for that disaster (little 'd')! Onward to the last Battle this Turn:

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/7628/d4ImhF.jpg)


The 1st Illyrian War vs Roman Consul and Priest Plautius of the Progressives, along with the 5th, 10th, and 11th Veteran Legions; the 16th through 25th Regular Legions; and the 3rd through 5th Support Fleets!

Number of Legions: 13 (10 + 3 vets)
Number of Vets: +3
Plautius' Mil: +2 (all used)
1st IllWar's Land Strength: -5
No adjusting enemy leaders, events or other factors.

DRM will be 13+3+2-5 = +13. This will be enough to gain certain Victory, although at a very minor chance of some casualties, unless the dice total D5 or S17.

3d6 roll = 6+4+3 = 13 -- not a D/S result! 13 + DRM 13 is waaaay more than 18, so that's a Victory with no lost Legions!

Unrest is already at 0. This War's Drought effect vanishes. (The 2nd IllWar doesn't create a drought effect.) Rome adds Spoils of 10 talents (up from 102 to 112). The 16th Legion upgrades to Veteran. The 1st Illyrian War discards. Its defeat does not (yet) grant any new Province.

Plautius gains half the printed Land strength (thus 5/2 = 2.5 rounded up to) +3 in both Popularity (up from 4 to 7) and Influence (up from 20 to 23; Progressive total up from 36 to 39). No casualties, so no deductions, and no Mortality chits drawn. He earns the Loyalty of the newly Veteran 16th Legion.

Plautius now sails back toward Rome with his Victorious Force.

The 2nd Macedonian War moves to Unprosecuted.

This ends the Combat Phase for Turn Fourteen.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 26, 2019, 06:03:44 PM
TURN FOURTEEN -- REVOLUTION PHASE
---------------------------------

There are no latent traded or given Faction cards arriving. Any such transfers will happen instantly for a little while.

No Players have any valid Concessions or Statesmen to play from their hand.

No Players need to discard or trade off Intrigue cards.

Erax's Plautius, as a Victorious returning Commander, has the option to Disband his (newly) Veteran 16th Legion, to trade in for +1 Ora and +1 Inf.

Plautius also has the option to declare rebellion against Rome. You can rely on the 16th Veterans to support you, but you can also rely on all the other Vets' loyalty to be with the Republic! -- several of whom however are still Deployed to the Lusitania War (along with more than several Regulars).

You can Test the Waters on the publicly if you want, without actually declaring Rebellion yet, to see how much support you can rely on.

I'll need to know your choices before I continue into Turn Fifteen.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on May 26, 2019, 06:41:45 PM
Plautius returns to Rome in peace and does not disband the 16th Legion.

One other thing, wasn't the Republic Treasury at 122 before the wars?
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 26, 2019, 07:30:11 PM
Um, back checking.... I see what happened. Y'all had 102 Talents going into the 3rd segment of the Income Phase this Turn, and after various incomes and expenses, the Republic had 122.

However, I must not have saved the game-state somehow. So it was still showing 102.

I've saved the correction now: 122 + 10 Spoils (no expenses since then, according to my records) = 132 Talents.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 26, 2019, 07:52:32 PM
TURN FIFTEEN -- MORTALITY PHASE
-------------------------------

The Turn starts with the Immanent 2nd Illyrian War going Active.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/9498/l0Pfzc.jpg)

This will be an easier fight, with another 10 spoils and the Province of Illyricum as the prize if Rome wins! This will also be the last of the Illyrian Wars in the game.


From the vigorously shuffled Bag of Doom, which increasingly threatens the Players with death for their characters, is drawn...

Family #7, the Fulvians.

The Frog's family Senator Fulvius dies, priest of Rome and a former Consul. All his chits discard, and his family -- unprepared to supply an heir to the Senate -- goes to the bottom of the senatorial family pile to await a return to political power someday.

The Frog's vote tally reduces by 2 Ora and 4 knights, from 10 to 4. (Remember, Acilius is away from Rome on Governing business and so cannot organize votes.) The Plutocrat influence total falls by 15 points as well, from 30 to 15. Only "new men" currently stand in the Plutocrat party now...

With condolences on another tragedy from the Bag, this ends the Mortality Phase for Turn 15.

(The Income i.e. Revenue Phase is so extensive, including for getting new snapshot updates, that I'm going to wait until tomorrow sometime -- it's nearly 8pm here, and I've been umping off and on for hours already today!  O:-) )
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on May 26, 2019, 10:48:40 PM
Sorry only saw the first part of the equation when you originally posted it.  My bad.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 27, 2019, 11:19:40 AM
TURN FIFTEEN -- INCOME PHASE
----------------------------

No delayed cash to deposit.



I.I.'s Aristocrats have 12 starting cash; +5 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator income; +5+4 knight income; +3 Harbor Fees;
= new Faction Total 34 Talents.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/2778/gDYqan.jpg)


Tripoli's Militarists have 0 starting cash; +0 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator income; +5+6+2 knight income; +2 Tax Farming; +0 contracted Sicilia spoils this turn
= new Faction Total 20 Talents.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/396/3TiUX9.jpg)


The Frog's Plutocrats have 6 starting cash; +6 personal cash; +5+1 senator income (Plutocrat ability); (+1+2)*2 knight income (Plutocrat ability);
= new Faction Total 24 Talents (so far, not counting optional spoils attempts).
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/2940/QUIALv.jpg)


AzTank's Conservatives have 35 starting cash; +5+5+2 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator income; +1 priest income; +4 Sicilian Grain; +2 Tax Farming; +2 CisGaul income; +1 contracted Sicilia spoils this turn;
= new Faction total 62 Talents.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/936/BorXQH.jpg)


Malize's Populists have 10 starting cash; +0 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator income (FabiMax's family isn't politically active to contribute income while he's captive); +2+2+1 knight income (ditto); +5 Egyptian Grain income; +3 Mining income (Armaments trigger if Legions are Raised);
= new Faction total 28 Talents.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/5237/vo4Sna.jpg)


Erax's Progressives have 5 starting cash; +10+10+10 personal cash; +3+1 senator income; +2+2 knight income; +1+1 priest incomes; +5 (1d6 roll) PontMax income; +2+2 Tax Farming income; +3 Land Commissioner income; (Shipbuilding only triggers when Fleets are Raised);
= new Faction total 57 Talents! (new record for Erax)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/6015/0jst34.jpg)


The Republic currently has 132 Talents. Expected fixed income and expenses are 100 normal income; -20-20-20 for Active Wars; (-23 active legions -22 active fleets)*2 upkeep = projected normal balance of 82 Talents (not counting Provincial taxes or upkeep).

The Land Commissioner Concession returns to the Forum.

There is no current Drought effect, so Grain Concessions cannot sacrifice Popularity for extra income this turn.



Players must now tell me their distributions, including whether any senator(s) will donate to the Republic for Influence. (10+ for 1 Inf; 25+ for extra 2 Inf; 49+ for extra 4 Inf)

You may also make preliminary plans for the Forum Phase: knight and/or senator persuasion attempts; sponsoring games; changing your Faction Leadership; possibly playing Intrigue cards (but those should be told to me privately).


The Frog must tell me if Acilius will be attempting Spoils on CisHispania (1d6-2) and/or Sardi-Corsi (1d6-5). If you come up negative you must pay the difference yourself!

Acilius' Local taxes can only be automatically spent, raising one provincial troop in Hispania, and one more provincial fleet (to 2) in Sardi-Corsi; but let me know if you want to contribute more cash to raise provincial forces (10 per unit, Manpower Shortage doesn't seem to affect it; no troops available in Sardi-Corsi yet, or fleets in CitHisp ever).



AzTank's Furius automatically collects Spoils from CisGaul since there is no downside, 1d6+1 = 2 Talents. Local Taxes increase troops automatically by another 2 to 6.

Per his ongoing Contract with Tripoli's Aelius (now in 2nd turn of 3), Terentius must attempt 1d6 spoils from Sicilia (corrupting it again). He rolls 1, and so AzTank adds 1 Talent to his income. (This cannot be divided with Aeilius, who was already ahead 2 to 1. Current balance now 2:2.)

AzTank must tell me how Terentius will spend his 30 local Sicily taxes, between fleets and troops (cost 10 each). You won't reach the max either way this turn. You can opt to spend extra faction cash on raising forces in any of your Provinces (troops only in Gaul.)


Malize must tell me if Aurelius will attempt spoils (1d6-3) on UltHisp. You'll have to pay a negative result yourself! Local UltHisp taxes are automatically applied (10 talents) to raise 1 (of 5 max) provincial Auxiliary; but you can optionally donate to raise more.

Malize should also tell me if he plans to ransom FabiMax at this time. Cost will be 18 Talents (from the Faction Treasury in this case). As long as your Faction and/or FabiMax himself has enough cash, you can call in the Ransom at any time (before a Victorious combat rescue attempt anyway!)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on May 27, 2019, 12:22:21 PM
AzTank gets another T$ 6 for his Knights.

I spent 5 to buy a Knight, so my personal cash is 20+5, and I should have T$ 52.

Everything else checks out.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on May 27, 2019, 12:27:49 PM
25 to Flaminius who spends 5 on a knight, 15 to Plautius, 12 in Treasury.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on May 27, 2019, 02:51:23 PM
18 to spring my captive

7 to Cato for games (spare pop to Aurelius)

3 in the bank
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 27, 2019, 03:29:26 PM
Fixed!
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on May 27, 2019, 05:16:26 PM
15 to Quinctius, 5 to Cornelius.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on May 28, 2019, 09:21:29 AM
12 to Aelius, who spends 7 on games for +1 popularity, and 5 for a knight.  Remainder 8 in the bank
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on May 30, 2019, 08:20:13 AM
10 to each of my guys.  Paulus will hold games.

Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 30, 2019, 12:31:14 PM
I'll start processing when I get back from the city tonight. (Off to catch the opening matinee of the new Godzilla film.  :smitten: )
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on May 31, 2019, 04:35:35 PM
A knight for Acilius, and divide then divide three ways 1/3 to each senator and 1/3 to the faction. 
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on May 31, 2019, 04:37:01 PM
Changing up.  I will do spoils both places, so after the Knight, I will keep 10 in faction cash to cover spoils, and the remainder to be split between my two guys. 
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on May 31, 2019, 08:32:51 PM
Got it.

I've sent AzTank a reminder that (as the Frog noticed in his own provinces) he has to determine how local taxes will be spent in force upgrades.


Aside from that, I'm only missing an extra note from Malize about whether he wants Aurelius to try for spoils (1d6-3) in his province or not. My assumption would be not, due to the significant risk he'll have to pay upkeep himself, in a turn where he needs the extra cash to ransom Fabius back, so if I don't hear back I'll go that way to be safe -- but I also don't want to simply assume.  O:-)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on June 01, 2019, 01:13:18 AM
No spoils
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 01, 2019, 01:42:36 PM
I'm not waiting on AzTank to process the Phase, by the way; but I am on short call to run wedding errands (and eventually go to a cousin's wedding), yesterday and today, so I doubt I'll be ready to post up results and start the Forum Phase until sometime tomorrow.

Maybe late tomorrow afternoon, depending on whether I talk Bro into going to see the new Godzilla film tomorrow after church.  :smitten:
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 01, 2019, 04:14:57 PM
I.I. gives 15 to Quinctius and 5 to Cornelius.

Tripoli gives 12 to Aelius who will spend 7 on games later, and 5 for an automatic knight. Keeps 8 in the bank.

The Frog will give 5 to Acilius for a knight later; and split the remainder between his senators after spoils. Hispania Citerior rolled 1d6-2 = 3-1 = +1 spoils. Sardi-Corsi rolled 1d6-5 = 3 (again -5 = -2 spoils. +1 -2 = -1 from Faction Treasury. 24 - 1 (net spoils) -5 (to Acilius) = 18, divided by 2 senators = 9 per senator.

AzTank gives 10 to each guy, keeps the remaining 38. Paulus will hold games with 7 of his. Apparently I should make the local tax choices. I choose to keep the proportional plan going that he started last turn: 2 troops, 1 fleet (now 4:2).

Malize won't risk spoils, since he has a lot of expenses to work on this turn. 18 immediately to ransom FabiMax back; 7 to Cato for games later (spare pop point to Aurelius afterward). Keeps 3 in the bank.

Erax will give 25 to Flam who will spend 5 on an automatic knight; 15 to Plautius. Keeps 12 in the Faction treasury.


Segment 3, Republic income.

Governed Provinces now roll for development, 1d6 wins on 6 or better. HispCit, 4. Sardi-Corsi, 4. Sicilia 5 (note that if he hadn't tried for spoils, he would have developed it! -- but contractually he had to try.) HispUlt, 2. No developments.


Rome's treasury has 132; +100 normal income; -20-20-20 Active Wars; -45 (of 50) units x 2 upkeep; -2 -7 +8 +10 -3 random State Incomes;  no extra incomes or expenses this turn;
= new Republic total 88 Talents.

All Provinces tick off one notch on the Governors' terms.

This ends the Revenue Phase.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 01, 2019, 09:17:52 PM
TURN FIFTEEN -- FORUM PHASE
---------------------------

The random Manpower Shortage is the only remaining Event per se in the Forum, and it discards now.

Erax controls the Highest Ranking Available Officer, Roman Consul Plautius, and therefore goes first around the board this Turn.


Erax's Progressives roll a 3+1, which isn't a 7, so he draws a Scenario... it's a red-text Faction card, so face-down with his other three cards. I've sent him a p-mail to alert him what he drew.

Flam, as per Erax's preplanning, spends 5 of his 15 personal cash on an automatic 3rd knight. Normal vote tally goes up to 8.

Without further instructions from Erax I'll continue on, but I'll allow some reasonable asynch lag if he decides he wants to try Persuading a senator (which I'm not sure is possible for him to succeed at yet) or changing Faction leader or sponsoring Games.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 01, 2019, 09:26:59 PM
I.I.'s Aristocrats roll 6+4, which is a Scenario draw: also a red-text Faction card, to join his other one face down. I've pmailed him about what he got.

I don't have any instructions from I.I. yet about his faction management intentions this Turn, so I'll wait here.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on June 01, 2019, 09:39:08 PM
Knight to Cornelius.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on June 02, 2019, 08:59:19 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on June 01, 2019, 04:14:57 PM

AzTank gives 10 to each guy, keeps the remaining 38. Paulus will hold games with 7 of his. Apparently I should make the local tax choices. I choose to keep the proportional plan going that he started last turn: 2 troops, 1 fleet (now 4:2).



Sorry I missed this...but agree with your resolution
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 02, 2019, 12:21:22 PM
Tripoli's Militarists roll 3+1, which would earn a tidy profit in craps! (Because Erax already rolled a 4, and indeed 3+1, so matching it again before rolling a 7 would earn a 2 to 1 payoff!) He draws a Scenario card: yet another red-text Faction Intrigue, face-down to join his current one. I've sent Tripoli a p-mail about it.

Aelius spends 5 of his 12 on an automatic 3rd knight (vote tally up to 23, Mil skill up from 5 to 6); and then his remaining 7 cash Sponsoring level 1 games, which earns him 1 Pop point (up from 1 to 2). (Unrest is already at 0.)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 02, 2019, 01:48:55 PM
The Frog's Plutocrats roll 4+2, which is not a 7, and so he draws a Scenario: also a red-text Intrigue card, joining his other two face down! I've sent the Frog a p-mail about this.

Acilius spends 5 for an automatic 3rd knight. (This does not increase the Plutocrat vote tally yet, because Acilius is out Governing Provinces.)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 02, 2019, 02:02:11 PM
AzTank's Conservatives roll a 5+1, so draw a Scenario card: also a red-text Faction card, which joins his other two cards face down. I've sent him a p-mail about his card.

Paullus Macedonicus spends 7 of his 10 cash to sponsor games, increasing his Popularity from 3 to 4. (Unrest is already at 0.)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 02, 2019, 02:23:33 PM
Last around the Forum Phase this Turn, are Malize's Populists who roll 1+1 -- which fortunately isn't a bad thing for this roll! It isn't a 7, so he draws a Scenario: yet one more red-text Faction card! (A clean sweep around the table for those this Turn! -- so proportionately fewer in the remaining Middle Era turns...) I've sent a p-mail to Malize about this already.

Cato, per Malize's plan, spends all 7 of his personal cash on Sponsoring Games, gaining 1 point of popularity for himself (up to 6), and farming another point of popularity which Malize gives to Aurelius (up to 5). Populist vote tally goes up to 38 (now that Field Consul FabiMax has been ransomed home.)

This ends the Forum Phase for Turn 15.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 02, 2019, 02:39:27 PM
TURN FIFTEEN -- POPULATION PHASE
--------------------------------

Putting Rome in Order before the Senate!

All senators with office PontMax and above get Major suspicion of corruption.

No Tax Farming areas threatened by War.

Tax Farmer 6 rolls 1, so fails to respawn.

In the senatorial family pile, from top to bottom: 4, 3, 5!, and another 5! The bottom two families (most recent casualties), each manage to get a new scion accepted into the Senate! -- the Fulvians and the Papirians. Neither of these have active Statesmen on the board -- the Papirians don't have one in the decks at all (no bracket around their family #11), so they'll be up for Persuasion to join a Faction next Turn!

Hamilcar avoids the death roll with a 3; but Hannibal rolls a 6, and passes away while still trying to organize a new Punic War. Press F to pay respects!


Adjusting Unrest: no more droughts currently in effect, but the Unprosecuted 2nd Macedonian War kicks unrest up one notch from 0 to 1.

The current HRAO is Roman Consul Plautius of the Progressives, and he opens the Senate with a State of the Republic speech: 7 Popularity -1 Unrest +5+5+2 (3d6 roll) = 18! This would adjust Unrest back down 3 points, but it's only at 1 so it goes to 0.


This begins the Senate Phase for Turn 15. I'll have mat snapshots presently for the State of the Republic.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 03, 2019, 08:16:29 AM
I didn't get the State of the Republic snapshots and reports finished last night, but I should be able to get them this afternoon.

Working off memory, however, here are some preliminaries to be thinking about...

FIRST MANDATORY (Consuls): FabiMax got ransomed home before the Senate started, so he's still Field Consul. This means he cannot be a Consul again this turn, although he's now eligible for Censor. Erax's Plautius is the other Consul.

SECOND MANDATORY (PontMax): y'all still have one, Flaminius of the Progressives.

THIRD MANDATORY (Dictator): there are 3+ Active Wars, so your Consuls can appoint one (or open the floor for Proposals and voting).

FOURTH MANDATORY (MoH): just remember that a Statesman assigned as MoH cannot use his abilities. (Relevantly FabiMax's half-casualty reduction, or Paullus Macedon's D/S nerfing.)

FIFTH and SIXTH MANDATORY (Censor and Prosections): refer back upthread to the pre-distribution snapshots for reference (until I get updated ones out) for who has been or is a Prior Consul, thus valid for Censor.

SEVENTH MANDATORY (Governors): all Provinces are currently assigned. You can still Propose reassignments, or to restart someone's term clock. The Lusitania War will be going after one of the Hispanias this Turn (I can't recall if it's Cisterior or Ulterior, but not both), so if you aren't planning ahead to fight the War directly you should be thinking about which Governor you want to risk there -- and whether to send him Garrison Legions!

OTHER BUSINESS (Concessions): the temporary Land Commish is ready to assign again; and there's a Tax Farm waiting for assignment.

FORCE POOL: two or three Legions (I forget how many, refer back upthread or wait for the report) were sent back to the Force Pool last turn as casualties. They can be raised again, though whether you really need them this turn is another question. There're also a few Fleets still available in the logistic pool, but y'all currently have enough for any support actions, and no current war needs fleet combat.

LUSITANIA WAR: this thing is still around (strength 6), and roughly half your Legions (plus a little fleet support) are still Deployed there -- without a Commander! I'll have to check the rules about whether units Recalled this Turn can be redeployed the same turn (I think so but I don't feel totally sure). If you don't Recall them, you'll need to Deploy a Commander (Consul, or Dictator/MoH team) to lead them. Otherwise they'll Recall back to Rome automatically at the end of the Senate Phase. You can send reinforcements with a new Commander, at your discretion.

2nd MACWAR: this is the strongest war currently on the board (strength 10). It went Unprosecuted last turn, but y'all were able to handle its Unrest easily. It doesn't require a Naval Victory, just some fleet support to secure a supply lane. AzTank's PaullusMac can avoid its D/S risks, and he's eligible for Consul duty this Turn (or for Dictator of course). It will NOT provide a new Province if you Defeat it (I don't recall when/how Macedon becomes available, just not this way), but it will give the most Spoils of any War currently on the board. If it's still around next turn, and you've picked up Illyricum, it'll attack that.

2ND ILLWAR (4): this is the weakest war currently on the board, and does not create drought conditions. If you defeat it, you'll get a new province, Illyricum.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on June 03, 2019, 04:57:29 PM
I propose a contract: Claudius and Aemilius Macedonicus for Consules, with Fabius Maximus for Censor. The Censor will not prosecute any who agree to the Contract.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 03, 2019, 08:06:30 PM
TURN FIFTEEN -- SENATE PHASE
----------------------------

Time for some snapshots!


I.I.'s Aristocrats have dropped to a verrrry close third place, with nothing much special to say about his position -- other than that he's in the midst of three other contenders now!
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/6826/SFniwv.jpg)



Tripoli's Militarists strode recently into the solid leading Faction, thanks to the Frog's machinations. No real weaknesses, currently, although he does lack any way of boosting his normal vote tally. Whether he stays in the lead will depend on some luck and his ability to navigate suddenly suspicious political waters.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/1315/L8vlen.jpg)



The Frog's Plutocrats dropped to last place earlier this Turn when the Mortality Bag kicked his most powerful senator, Fulvius, into the grave! The Fulvians managed to get a new scion ready already, but whether he can be persuaded to join the Plutocrats again remains to be seen (during the next Forum Phase).
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/8350/l2p9kF.jpg)



AzTank's Conservatives have slowly but steadily clawed back up in power, jockeying for position with the Aristocrats -- and each of them jostling the Populists! But AzTank currently lacks voting punch with two of his three senators out on Governance -- not even considering that his remaining senator may well be called to war against Macedonia this turn! It's a very respectable fourth place position, and he could shoot up relatively quickly now at any time.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/5494/ZS8F97.jpg)



I'm ranking Malize's Populists in a somewhat narrow second place lead this Turn, due to their solid combination of votes, influence, and senatorial flexibility on the board (including Cato's once-per-turn Tribune role). His four Intrigue cards don't hurt either! His financial luck has continued to be hideous, but he's in position to increasingly profit if his luck turns for the better. But his new position doesn't yet leave other Players safely behind.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/2872/EgmC9F.jpg)
!!NOTE!! I forgot to bring back FabiMax's votes to the Senate once he was ransomed back home. Total Vote tally should be 38.


Erax's Progressives are making for the strongest 5th place I've seen in the game so far! -- and I'm not even trying to be funny about that! His lack of more than two senators is hurting his voting power, and also makes his Faction more fragile to bad luck or to enemy action. But he has been so politically active in recent turns that his Faction has moved along nicely... despite me mixing up Flaminius with Plautius last turn!
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/3513/rcpbq0.jpg)
(Note that this snapshot should fix my mistake, though prior posts will still read as though Plautius went out to fight. The proper rewards have been deducted from Plautius and given to Flaminius, including the new Veteran Legion loyalty. I still forgot to move the HRAO marker, but that won't matter much longer. Flam is HRAO.)


Here are the Active Wars, which can be somewhat zoomed in by clicking, though I may have to just provide extra snapshots. (Let me know if so!) The military units deployed over at the Lusitania War can be hard to see against the colorfully busy background painting on the board, so I have highlighted them with a yellow hex.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/5702/B2fan0.jpg)



These are the units already active waiting to be deployed (lower) and waiting to be raised again (upper).
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/226/GHj9g5.jpg)



There are no bad effects hanging around in the Forum this Turn. This is just a reminder of two Concessions which can be (but not necessarily) doled out by vote to senators this Turn; and that there are now three unattached senators in case you want to sacrifice someone to a problematic Governorship... ;)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/869/5iiIzd.jpg)

The Senate starts with 88 Talents in the Republic's Treasury. Current normal expenses (unless adjusted) for next turn will be (-20 x three Wars) + (-2 x 45 active units), plus a normal 100 income for a projected net of 38 Talents.


Roman Consul FLAMINIUS (not Plautius) of the Progressives, played by Erax, is now up for first Mandatory Business: Consul Proposals.

While technically the rules forbid Consuls from being part of a public deal (what we've been calling a Contract package), we've been doing that all game long and I don't see any harm in it, so per house rule judgment I fully agree to keep allowing it.  O:-)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 03, 2019, 08:12:12 PM
Quote from: Erax on June 03, 2019, 04:57:29 PM
I propose a contract: Claudius and Aemilius Macedonicus for Consules, with Fabius Maximus for Censor. The Censor will not prosecute any who agree to the Contract.

This is just a handy reference quote, since he posted that before I finished getting the snapshots ready.  O0


Note to Erax: check your notes on Plaut's and Flam's influence -- I suspect they're still off by 5 either way, with me having given the Roman Consul Influence to Plaut instead of Flam. But I haven't been able to confirm that yet in my notes.

If you decide you'd rather keep them close to par, like this, I have no objections, since it's totally my fault the mixup happened in the first place.  :-[
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on June 05, 2019, 05:51:36 AM
Apparently I missed the 1 Inf I got from voting against the proposed law last turn, but with that, my notes tell me these are the correct Inf values for my Senators.

And now that the snapshots are up, I'll propose the contract 'officially'.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on June 07, 2019, 05:38:53 PM
I will vote for this contract. 
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on June 07, 2019, 08:48:58 PM
Quote from: Erax on June 03, 2019, 04:57:29 PM
I propose a contract: Claudius and Aemilius Macedonicus for Consules, with Fabius Maximus for Censor. The Censor will not prosecute any who agree to the Contract.

Agreed
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 07, 2019, 08:59:42 PM
Well, that's 18 votes -- nowhere near enough for a majority yet, but a start!

There are still potentially 68 votes that might oppose the contract plan. If I've done my calcs correctly, I think you'll need 26 more votes to sign on before I can start automatically processing. (That would put the spread at 44 votes in favor, and leaving only 42 potentially against.)

In effect that means either Malize, or I.I. and Tripoli combined (neither one would be enough to get over the threshold), will have to sign on.


Note that Erax's proposed Contract doesn't go very far, and leaves open a lot of details which could be hashed out later (including the question of a Dictator, which is still validly possible for this turn. That's a question AzTank and the Frog would have to work out among themselves.)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on June 08, 2019, 12:21:24 PM
I don't necessarily disagree with the proposal.  However, what would you propose for taking on the various wars, if possible without a dictator?  If we have a good shot at winning the wars without a dictator, I would be inclined to agree to the proposal.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 08, 2019, 04:25:15 PM
The only way to possibly win all three current wars without a dictator this turn, would be to send a competent senator to be Governor of Hispania Citerior (currently Gov'd by Acilius of the Plutocrats with a Mil of 2), along with serious Legionary Garrisons, to catch and wipe the Lusitanian Revolt at the point of its attack. Then send the Consuls against the other two Wars (presumably AzTank's AemiMac against the Macedonian War, and the other Consul against 2ndIll.)

You'd be trying to roll the dice on beating three wars with stretched Legions however -- and two Legions short unless you re-Raise the casualties from last turn. (Though on the other hand you should have two more Veteran Legions now to hit with, one of them still deployed at the Lusitanian front.) I'm not entirely sure that's feasible even with a Dictator/MoH combo added in, although the odds would be a little better than the same situation last turn (since the 2ndIll War is weaker than the 1st was.)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on June 09, 2019, 05:56:39 AM
We have Claudius (Mil 2), Acilius (Mil 2) and Macedonicus (Mil 5). The province and its provincial legion give us another 2 MS (Military Strength). Add to this 9 veterans (18 MS) and 14 regulars (14 MS) for a grand total of 43 MS, up to 45 if we raise two legions. The wars have a combined strength of 20. If we raise one legion, we can attack them all at (44-20)/3 = +8 each, which is a victory at 6+ on the dice, or 95% excluding D/S. If we raise both legions we can raise the odds on one war to 98%.

We could also switch the governorship of HispCit from Acilius to Manlius, this would give us an extra 9 Mil bringing our total MS to 52-54; at 53 we'd have an average adjustment of (53-20)/3 = +11 each, for three assured victories barring D/S results.

Personally, I'd vote for the second option, raising all legions as well. We have the money for it and we'll make it back (and more) with the spoils.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on June 09, 2019, 06:37:04 AM
I would tend to go with the second option.  For what its worth, it also gets Manlius out of Rome, if that is something for those who are concerned about the militarists getting too much power, ie, it reduces my vote count.  It helps me accomplish my objective of avoiding a dictator.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 09, 2019, 12:18:51 PM
I've dropped a line to AzTank and the Frog, since their prior approval of the Contract will need revisiting with these changes.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 09, 2019, 02:30:29 PM
The Frog says he is in favor of the second option -- and is generally in favor of any most-expensive-option.  >:D

(For obvious reasons, I suppose, although he didn't elaborate.  :coolsmiley: )
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on June 09, 2019, 06:06:02 PM
Populists agree with "second option"
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on June 10, 2019, 06:14:29 AM
Very well, revised contract proposal (and I think we already have the votes):

Claudius and Aemilius Macedonicus for Consules, with Fabius Maximus for Censor. The Censor will not prosecute any who agree to the Contract. Acilius loses the governorship of HispCit which passes to Manlius.

We agree to distribute our forces so each of the three wars is attacked (or in the case of the revolt, attacks us) with the same modifier, or as close as we can get to it.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 10, 2019, 07:27:03 AM
Yeah, with Malize on board, you don't really need AzTank's revised approval anymore. And I.I. can just hang out and watch for opportunities. ;)

The revised contract doesn't mention whether you're going to raise the last two Legions again, although I think that was part of your military plan earlier...?
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on June 10, 2019, 01:31:09 PM
I'll leave the 2 legions out of the contract becuse I brought them up halfway through the discussion, but the new Consul can propose raising them if he wishes (and I'll vote in favor).
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 10, 2019, 08:46:12 PM
Okay, I'll start processing tomorrow afternoon -- you've got enough votes pledged to start now, but I'm late tonight from doing other things. (Sorry.  :-[ )

Note to all players! -- since no Dictator is involved, Tribunes can veto any Proposals in this Contract. I don't know why anyone would want to do that, but as umpire I should still remind players.  O:-)

If it should happen that any Players are planning to drop a wrench in this Proposal (although again I don't know why you would), you'll have some opportunities to let me know by p-mail before I start processing tomorrow afternoon -- which will start sometime after 3:45pm Central US standard time.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on June 11, 2019, 08:16:26 AM
Sorry, I was in Iowa yesterday.  For the record, I agree with the second option.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 11, 2019, 05:30:11 PM
THE 15TH TURN SENATORIAL CONTRACT:

1.1) Roman Consul Flaminius Proposes Claudius of the Plutocrats and Aemilius Paullus Macedonicus of the Conservatives, as the new Consuls.

1.2) Contracted Players vote in favor for a majority.

1.3) Claudius gains 5 Inf, up from 9 to 14. (Total up from 15 to 20.)

1.4) PaulMac gains 5 Inf, up from 22 to 27. (Total up from 43 to 48.) He resigns as Censor.

1.5) Flaminius resigns PM post.


I'll need to find out from the Frog and AzTank whom they wish to be which Consuls. Presumably PaulMac would be Field Consul.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 11, 2019, 06:57:18 PM
2.0) It won't make any difference for contract resolution, so while they're working out an agreement on particulars I'm going to provisionally treat Claudius as the Roman Consul -- partly because the Frog agreed to a later draft of the Contract, and partly because it's easier for me to get in touch with him for making PM decisions going forward.

2.1) 2nd Mandatory Business -- no new PontMax needed yet.


Edited to add: I've got to go back to doing some late yardwork, so it may be tomorrow before I continue processing.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 13, 2019, 06:11:06 PM
3.1) 3rd Mandatory Business -- I'm not sure they have contracted to AVOID appointing a dictator; they just didn't contract TO DO that.

3.2) No Dictator appointed by the Consuls.

4.1) Therefore also no MoH.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 13, 2019, 06:27:50 PM
5.1) 5th Mandatory -- the Roman Consul Proposes, per contract, Malize's Fabius Maximus as the new Censor.

5.2) Contracted Players majority-vote in favor.

5.3) FabiMax becomes the new Censor. His Influence goes up 5 from 9 to 14. (Total Inf up to 40.)

5.4) Cornelius passes the Presiding Magistrate duty over to FabiMax temporarily.


(NOTE! -- while processing this I did a normal checkup and realized I had somehow not saved the return of FabiMax's votes to the Senate when he was Ransomed home. And that was back before the pre-Senate snapshots! I've added a note to the snapshot that the vote tally should be 38.)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 13, 2019, 06:30:44 PM
6.1) Sixth Mandatory -- AzTank is forbidden by Contract to prosecute anyone who voted for him; and doesn't care to prosecute I.I.'s senators (who might or might not have voted for him). So PaulMac hands back PM duties to Cornelius. All senators (not territories) lose their suspicion markers.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 13, 2019, 06:37:25 PM
7.1) Seventh Mandatory -- Roman Consul Cornelius Proposes to Replace his fellow Plutocrat Acilius as Governor of Hispania Citerior, with Manlius of the Militarists.

7.2) All Contracted Players majority-vote in favor.

7.3) Acilius doesn't come home (he still has SardiCorsi to Govern), but he does pack up and out of Hispania.

7.4) Manlius departs Rome for Hispania, resetting the term marker there to 3. The territory loses its suspicion of corruption. Vote tally goes down -2 Ora and -6 knights from 23 to 15.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 13, 2019, 06:58:58 PM
This ends all Mandatory Business.


8.1) Cornelius offers a Batch Proposal for the Concessions: Land Commissioner to the Progressives for another Turn (Erax can choose who specifically gets it); and Tax Farming to the Aristocrats (ditto for I.I.).

This wasn't part of the Contract, so will need to be voted randomly. The Frog declares no voting order necessary.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on June 13, 2019, 07:41:16 PM
Militarists vote for
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 13, 2019, 07:46:06 PM
While we're waiting for the Batch Concession voting: the Frog would like to discuss the possibility of instituting another level of Veteran Reform.

As the Republic gains more and more Vets, it becomes more and more expensive to institute reforms; but of course the Vets thus become more difficult to lose (needing to be reconstituted from the logistic reserve at 10 Talents a pop).

Currently the Republic has 88 Talents. He intends to Propose Raising the remaining two Legions again, so that will leave 68 Talents.

The Republic has 9 Veteran Legions currently (as far as I can tell): 4 on Active Reserve, and 5 Deployed to the Lusitanian Front. (Deployed Vets can benefit from new training regimen reforms, too; they don't all have to be Recalled first, although in this case that could happen anyway.)

Thus (per the current house rules I'm testing out), the cost for 2nd level Reforms would be (10 Talents * 2nd Level) + (10 Talents * 9 Veterans) = 110.

Naturally this would put the Republic in a hole by 42 Talents. But you'll be gaining 45 back definitely this Turn when the MacWar goes down, not even counting the 10 Talents of the 2ndIllWar (which isn't as certain to be Defeated due to the D/S risks). Add the normal 100 income, plus a probable net-positive income from the Provinces (thanks to Developed Gallia Cisalpina offsetting undeveloped costs of other Provinces), and the Republic should still be in the black after the next income phase. (Not even counting senator donations.)

Even if it isn't, the Frog is willing to reveal that he has a new Statesman ready to play at the end of this Turn. So regardless of what happens to Cornelius this Turn (or during the next Mortality Phase), you'll almost surely have another Plutocrat to act as a safety net for another turn or two until the Republic gets solidly back in the black again with more fiscal conservativism.

He acknowledges there's a very small but real risk that y'all could lose the game doing this: something could happen to Cornelius, and then a bad event roll could auto-spend the Republic back below zero again during the next Forum round. If that happens, you wouldn't have a Plutocrat in place again as HRAO yet, and the Republic would be toast!

So he certainly wouldn't blame anyone for not being willing to risk the game on this move, even if it's a very small risk: this is hardly an emergency situation!

But, on the other hand, having a Plutocrat available to safety net things might be the only way to level up the Vets for a while. That opportunity is currently available.

But on yet the other hand again, y'all might prefer to set up a more secure safety net later for leveling up the Vets, and not do so this Turn.

(Note that this is not an official Proposal yet; he's only bringing up the matter for discussion while Players are voting on the Concession Batch Proposal.)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on June 13, 2019, 08:05:01 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on June 13, 2019, 06:30:44 PM
6.1) Sixth Mandatory -- AzTank is forbidden by Contract to prosecute anyone who voted for him; and doesn't care to prosecute I.I.'s senators (who might or might not have voted for him). So PaulMac hands back PM duties to Cornelius. All senators (not territories) lose their suspicion markers.

??

voting for 8.1
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 14, 2019, 07:30:27 AM
Sorry, a neuron in my brain forgot PaulMac wasn't still censor!

You're allowed to prosecute I.I. if you like. ;)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on June 14, 2019, 12:32:56 PM
Lol nah.   I was just like "wait, what?"
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on June 14, 2019, 12:57:09 PM
concur with the contract
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on June 14, 2019, 05:56:36 PM
Yes to 8.1.

And yes to veteran reform, though I will note we can reduce our costs by disbanding a couple of veteran legions now and then bringing them back after the reform. Naturally this will also reduce our military power vs. the three wars but it is an option.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 14, 2019, 09:37:24 PM
I'll try running the numbers to see how much punch can still be gotten if two Vets are disbanded. It would save 20 Talents on the upgrade plus another 20 Talents on upkeep next turn (I don't think Legions can be disbanded and then raised again on the same Turn), so that's 40 cash net saved. (Not counting any cash saved on upkeep next turn by any casualties to the fights! ;) )

It would remain absolutely mandatory to crush the 2nd MacWar at least, so as to prevent its cost and take its spoils; but if y'all are seriously hampering your ability to knock out the other two wars, they may still be around next turn to take another 20 to 40 cash.

It might come down to a choice between wiping all three wars this turn (aside from D/S risks) at the cost of a small possibility of losing the game next turn; or wiping all three wars and just waiting until next turn to go for the veteran upgrade when you're hopefully more cash-flush after the fight (though you'll have three more veterans by then, too, if all goes well!); or upgrading the vets now and reducing your upkeep and upgrade costs to a safe level while leaving one or even two of the wars on the board rather than increase the risk or no victories against them.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 14, 2019, 09:39:00 PM
Meanwhile, I'm sure we have a majority for the Concession Batch Proposal now, but it's late here and I need to sleep, so I'll process tomorrow morning (probably).
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on June 15, 2019, 09:39:05 AM
I'll be voting for as well.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 15, 2019, 06:16:22 PM
Whew! I've been gone basically all day on Fathers Day Weekend Things!

Will try to continue processing tonight, but I need a nap first.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 16, 2019, 09:26:28 AM
The continuation of Fathers Day Weekendy Things.... um.... continues! For some time of continuance!  :D

i.e. back to processing this afternoon or tonight, but depending on various factors it might be tomorrow afternoon.

I appreciate all patience! -- I'll should be back on the horse no later than that (Theos willing and the Rubicon don't rise). ;)

If anyone wants to nail down some numbers, since the Frog intends to Raise back the final two logistic Legions, for Recall and Deployment to the various fronts, be my guest. (I think Erax has done so already upthread, but a summary will not be rejected!)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on June 17, 2019, 10:05:51 AM
Busy day today, I'll work on an updated proposal if I can.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 17, 2019, 05:02:09 PM
I know the feeling!

8.2) The Aristocrats get Tax Farming 5. I.I. will have to declare who he's giving it to: Cornelius, Quinctius, or Valerius (who already has the Harbor Fees Concession).

8.3) The Progressives get the Land Commissioner Concession (again). Erax will have to declare who he's giving it to. (Flam has ship building; Plautius has a couple of Tax Farmings.)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 17, 2019, 05:25:08 PM
Having double-checked the rules, while units cannot be Recalled the same turn they are Deployed; there doesn't seem to be any bar to Deploying units already Recalled to Rome this Turn. Therefore...

9.1) Roman Consul Cornelius Proposes the Recall of all units currently Deployed against the Lusitanian War.

9.2) All Contracted players vote in favor. (This is assumed to be part of the Contracted attempt at balancing force deployments against all three wars, including by sending Manlius to Hispania Citerior as Military governor to fight the War from that staging area. There is no downside to consolidating units back in Rome before redeployment.)

9.3) All Deployed units now return to the Active Pool in Rome.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 17, 2019, 05:31:33 PM
Relatedly, per the Frog's prior instructions:

10.1) The Consul Proposes the Raising of the 12th and 15th Legions (the final two logistically available). This will cost 20 of the Republic's 88 Talents.

This wasn't part of the Contract, so a vote will have to be called normally. Cornelius will allow voting in any order. (Note that this is separate from the question of whether to bleed cash for adding another Reform to Veteran Training; which might be affected by Raising these Legions. But only one other player seemed interested in that, so I'm provisionally judging the matter mooted for now, to be revisited in future Turns perhaps, and moving along.)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on June 17, 2019, 05:56:50 PM
Concession to Quinctius. I'll vote for the raising of more legions.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on June 17, 2019, 08:30:41 PM
Vote in favor of raising Legions.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 17, 2019, 09:17:59 PM
Between you two and the Frog, that's a 23 point vote majority, even accounting for potential activist votes of the Conservatives and Progressives! (Although Erax may want to vote against it anyway as a show of principle, and harvest a couple of influence points. ;) )

I've processed them back to Active duty, and I've added the 4 Talents to Aurelius for the Armaments Concession. Also Republic cash down 20 to 68.

(Tax Farming 5 to Quinctius as instructed.)

I'll pause at this point for some considerations on how best to spread out the units, since that seems to be all that remains?

Strictly speaking, the order of Deployment will need to be: (1) Garrison Legions Deployed to Hispania Citerior under command of Governor Manlius; (2) Field Consul PaulMac Deployed with Legions (and logistic fleet support as necessary) to the 2nd MacWar; and then (3) Roman Consul Cornelius Deployed with Legions (and logistic fleet etc. ;) ) to the 2nd IllWar.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on June 17, 2019, 10:13:34 PM
To the record I vote in favor of raising the two legions
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on June 18, 2019, 12:06:29 PM
I don't get to farm influence because the legion vote doesn't advance any senator. Concession to Flaminius.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 19, 2019, 06:23:52 PM
Okay I've done some calcs for recommendations. PEOPLE WHO ARE BETTER THAN I AM AT MATH SHOULD CHECK THESE!  :buck2:

2ndMacWar needs to be the priority this turn, due to superior spoils and availability of PaulMac to nix D/S results.

2ndMacWar: 18 (flawless victory) +10 (enemy strength) -3 (minimum combat roll) = 25 power plus PaulMac (to nix D/S risks) needed for safe victory.

25 power needed; -5 PaulMac Mil; -18 (all 9 Vet Legions x 2) = 2 Regulars needed.

This leaves 14 Regulars. (25 total legions -9 vets -2 regulars.)


Lusitanian War needs to be 2nd priority because it's attacking actual territory otherwise, and will kill a senator (Manlius).

LusiWar: 18 (flawless victory) +6 (enemy strength) -9 (Manlius Mil skill) -1 (HispCit inherent landpower) -1 (HispCit militia fighting at full strength with Garrison) -3 (minimum combat roll) = 10 Legions needed. The Republic has 14; that leaves 4 Active in reserve.


2nd Illyrian War: 18 (flawless victory) +4 (enemy strength) -2 (Claudius Mil) -3 (minimum roll) = 17 Legions needed. Only 4 in reserve.

Conclusion 1: For guaranteed flawless victory (aside from D/S risk) on Lusi and 2ndMac Wars, don't send Claudius out vs 2ndIll.


17 Legions (needed for flawless 2ndIll Victory) -4 (difference between 18 flawless victory and 14 minimum victory result) = 13 Legions needed; 4 in current reserve.

Shifting net equivalent of 9 total regulars from other wars would keep Victories certain (bar D/S) now with possible casualties, and one minimum chance of 0 casualty stalemate somewhere. This would provide Claud with 13 Legions. (Or he could take 12 and the minimum stalemate risk.)

Conclusion 2: Defeat and Stalemate can be (almost entirely) eliminated from all Wars, with possible casualties remaining, and D/S risks remaining on two wars:
13 Legionpower at 2nd IllWar;
5 Legionpower at LusiWar (10 from Conclusion 1, minus 5 for Conclusion 2, leaving more Legions under PaulMac to be protected from D/S risk and casualty risk);
16 Legionpower at PaulMac (20 power -4).


This assumes LusiWar (which has no Spoils) would be the minimum Stalemate risk. A Legion could be shifted there from either other War, I think, to shift the Stalemate risk around.

It's also possible to shift Legions around on this plan to pack as many as possible under the umbrella of PaulMac's D/S protection (and consequent no-casualty risk), at the cost of slightly increasing Stalemate results elsewhere.

Remember, it's important to keep at least 1 Regular at the MacWar (to level up to Vet); so if you go with Conclusion 2 strategy, Deploy accordingly.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 19, 2019, 06:27:20 PM
Edited: fixed my math (I think) in the prior Conclusions.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on June 23, 2019, 02:36:45 PM
Just checking in
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 24, 2019, 07:28:05 AM
Same here. ;)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on June 25, 2019, 05:56:37 AM
I'm still here.  The plan looks good to me
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 25, 2019, 08:37:50 AM
Which one? The one where y'all do two wars for guaranteed flawless victories (except D/S risk)? Or the one where y'all go after all three wars for guaranteed victories with possible casualties and one smallest chance of a stalemate (plus D/S risk)?

That's basically where we are now. The Frog will propose whichever has the most support: two no-casualty victories, or three victories with possible casualties.

2ndMac War gets a victory either way (without any D/S risks either); and Lusitania gets beaten either way (except for D/S risks).
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on June 25, 2019, 06:39:35 PM
The three war plan looks good.  However, I'm happy with either one
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on June 26, 2019, 07:04:08 AM
I support this one:  "Or the one where y'all go after all three wars for guaranteed victories with possible casualties and one smallest chance of a stalemate (plus D/S risk)?"
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on June 26, 2019, 03:36:05 PM
Quote from: ArizonaTank on June 26, 2019, 07:04:08 AM
I support this one:  "Or the one where y'all go after all three wars for guaranteed victories with possible casualties and one smallest chance of a stalemate (plus D/S risk)?"

I will also support this
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 26, 2019, 06:19:51 PM
I'm sure that's a majority in effect, so I'll double-check with the Frog and then proceed.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 26, 2019, 08:46:52 PM
The Frog says go!

This procession will take quite a lot of time, since it will finish out this Senate Phase, then go through the Combat Phase, and then go into the Revolution Phase. So I'm going to start it tomorrow afternoon.

It isn't a Contract, so the people who said yes can change their mind at any point -- until I start returning combat results I suppose!

Also, if for any reason someone wants to veto any of the final Proposals this, that can be done (with the proper Tribune action of course): the Roman Consul isn't a Dictator.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on June 27, 2019, 11:24:29 AM
I'm glad you guys worked something out because there's been a lot going on here (sorry!). I'll see if I can at least check JP's math tonight.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 27, 2019, 05:38:42 PM
Everyone except I.I. (and probably him, too) prefers the option for fighting all three wars, so the Frog enacts those Proposals.

Target deployment strategy: Defeat and Stalemate can be (almost entirely) eliminated from all Wars, with possible casualties remaining, and D/S risks remaining on two wars:
13 Legionpower at 2nd IllWar;
5 Legionpower at LusiWar (10 from Conclusion 1, minus 5 for Conclusion 2, leaving more Legions under PaulMac to be protected from D/S risk and casualty risk);
16 Legionpower at PaulMac (20 power -4).


Roman Consul Claudius Proposes to Deploy one Veteran Legion, plus three regular Legions (2+3=5 Legionpower), to Garrison Hispania Citeria.

A majority vote of Players agree to this, and so they depart for the Province. (This doesn't change any stats, but I prep Manlius and the Province to defend against the Lusitanian Revolt on the board.)


Claudius Proposes to deploy the 1st thru 5th Fleets as logistic Support for Field Consul PaulMac to Deploy against the 2ndMacWar, bringing seven Veteran Legions plus two regular Legions (7x2 + 2 = 16 Legionpower).

A majority vote of Players agree to this, and PaulMac leaves Rome with the units. Normal vote tally for Conservatives is now zero! -- but that shouldn't affect the majority voting, and his fight is the most certain victory.


Lastly, Roman Consul Claudius Proposes to Deploy himself with 2 support fleets and all remaining Vet and Regular legions against the 2ndIllWar.

This is also agreed to by a majority vote, and so Claudius leaves the city with his units for the war. Plutocrat vote tally also goes to zero, but since Claudius didn't pass down the Presiding Magistration to someone else, this closes the Senate anyway for the Turn.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 27, 2019, 07:26:26 PM
TURN FIFTEEN -- COMBAT PHASE
----------------------------

Normally the combat resolves in the order of Deployment; but normally Province defense also resolves after normal combats! (And in the order of the earliest to latest wars, I think.)

In this case it doesn't matter, so we'll stick with deployment order:

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/6995/bip2VB.jpg)

The first Province defense of the game! It must be noted that despite some misleading descriptions in the Living Rules (even as of April 2018), and despite my misremembering of the situation (!!), Governors do not attack Wars! They do not use a Province as a springboard to attack a War, and while they can reduce a War's gains with a successful Victory (depending on whether the War has a leader and/or at least one Matching War on the board to help), they cannot discard a War off the board (unless only 5 scenarios or less remain in the whole game).

This is sort-of clearly stated in my flowchart rules, but I forgot to check. ;) So this won't get rid of the Lusitania War, but a Victory in Province defense would count against an auto-defeat, or count for one Player winning alone by sponsoring a successful Emperor overthrowing the Republic.

The Lusitania Revolt attacks the Province of Hispania Citerior (the first target on its list), defended by the Militarist Faction Leader and former Consul Manlius, along with the Veteran 1st Legion, supported by the 7th through 9th Legions, and one Spanish Provincial unit; plus Spanish partisans equal to one more Legion.

The Lusitania War doesn't have naval power, and Citerior Hispania is landlocked (for purposes of this game), so no naval fight is needed.

Hispania Citerior Land Strength: 1
Garrison Legions: +4
Garrison Vets again: +1
Provincial Armies: +1 (no division)
Manlius Mil skill: +9 (the rules are unclear how to apply Mil to a province defense, even as of April 2018, so I've house ruled in favor of the defense in my flowchart sheet: the Mil skill is always fully applied, representing capital defense, even with only 1 inherent Land Strength to work with.)

Lusitanian War Land Strength: -6
No other factors.

DRM = 1+4+1+1+9-6 = +10. A roll of 3 will be a no-casualty Stalemate; a roll of 6 will be Disaster; rolls of 11 or 16 will be Standoffs. Anything else will be a Victory, probably without casualties.

3d6 rolls... 6+4+4 = 14! Not a D/S result! Plus 10 DRM = 24, a no loss victory for Manlius!


Wars cannot usually be Discarded by a successful Province defense (until the final 5 cards of the game). A Provincial defensive victory also does not help unrest (although a defeat will worsen it as usual!) Lastly, Province Defense victories will not collect spoils: the War must be prosecuted directly for that! In this case, the Lusitania War is treated as a Province in Revolt (even though it has no Provincial territory yet), so it has no Spoils. The War basically bounces off the defense, technically going Inactive for the rest of the Combat Phase (for purposes of gauging auto-defeat or Emperor victory conditions), but goes back active at the Revolutionary Phase. (Otherwise it might come back Immanent in the Mortality Phase, which the rules are avoiding by this method.)

Manlius still gains half the War's printed land strength, so 6/2= +3 to Inf and Pop. He's already at maximum popularity, but his Influence goes up from 37 to 40 (total from 97 to 100!) He suffers no popularity loss or risk of combat death, due to no casualties. The 7th Legion, being the longest serving non-Vet, levels up to Vet. Manlius gains their loyalty chip.

Because this was a Governor defending his Province with a Garrison army, he and the Legions do not return to Rome. (The Governor might travel between multiple Provinces if he's a multi-Gov, but Garrisons stay with their Province.)


Annnd now I need to snack on something for the evening!  O:-)

More combat later, but I probably won't finish tonight. Might get the second fight done tho.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 30, 2019, 03:26:26 PM
It has been a busy summer weekend (and unlikely to get less busy next week), but this afternoon I'm able to catch up processing for the game, yay!  <:-)


Next up, the main event:

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/3972/et40FX.jpg)

Field Consul Lucius Aemilius Paullus Macedonicus of the Conservatives, leads the 2nd through 6th, 10th, and 11th Veteran Legions, along with the 12th and 13th Regular Legions, supported by the 1st through 5th Fleets, vs. the 2nd Macedonian War!

Number of Legions: 9
Number of Veterans: +7
AemiPaul's Mil: +5 (all used)
2ndMacWar's Land Strength: -10
No enemy leader:
No other adjustment factors:
DRM thus equals 9+7+5-10 = +11

PaulMac nullifies the D/S results for this War, and the DRM adjustment guarantees a Victory. The only question is whether there will be any casualties and if so how many. If the dice roll is 3 (the absolute minimum chance) up through a total of 6, there will be 4 to 1 casualties respectively. Otherwise it will be a flawless victory.

The dice roll is 5+4+1 = 10, so as was most likely, a flawless victory! (This would also have naturally avoided the D/S results of 13/14.)

Unrest would go down by 1, but it's already 0. The Republic gains 45 spoils, up from 68 to 113 Talantons. Macedonia is not conquered, however, and remains its own political entity. Its card indicates that Rome can expect two more Wars from them, although whether in the Middle or Late Provincial Eras who can say? -- but this particular War permanently discards. The 12th Legion levels up to Veteran.

PaulMac gains half the Land Strength (10/2) = +5 Inf and +5 Pop. This brings him to the maximum popularity of 9 (none of which he will lose, since he lost no legions. Nor must he draw from the Death Bag!) 22+5 Inf = 27 Influence (new faction total 48). Aemilius Paullus gains the Loyalty chip for the Veteran 12th Legion.

The Field Consul begins sailing back to Rome with his fleets and Legions.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 30, 2019, 03:42:07 PM
Last this turn, and also least I suppose:

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/3546/4QgwH2.jpg)

Roman Consul Claudius of the Plutocrats, leading the 16th Veteran Legion, along with the 14th, 15th, and 17th through 25th Legions, supported by the 6th and 7th Fleets, vs. the 2nd Illyrian War!

Number of Legions: 12
Number of Veterans: +1
Claudius Mil skill: +2 (all used)
2nd IllWar Land Strength: -4
No other DRM factors.

DRM will be 12+1+2-4= +11. D/S risks are 5 and 17 respectively; otherwise a total of 7 or more will be a flawless victory, with less still being a victory but with a few casualties.

3d6 are 6+3+3=12: not a D/S result! And more than 6 total, so a flawless Victory!

Unrest is already at 0. The Republic gains 10 spoils, up from 113 to 123 Talantons. This War discards; and Illyria is capable of no more wars, so Victory here creates the Province of Illyricum under Roman Governorship! The 14th Legion levels up to Veteran.

Claudius gains half the Land Strength (4/2) = +2 Inf and +2 Pop. This brings him to a popularity of 5 (none of which he will lose, since he lost no legions. Nor must he draw from the Death Bag!) 15+2 Inf = 17 Influence (new faction total 17+6=23). Claudius gains the Loyalty chip for the Veteran 14th Legion. Claudius starts sailing back to Rome with his Fleets and Legions.


This ends the Combat Phase.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 30, 2019, 04:06:53 PM
TURN FIFTEEN -- REVOLUTION PHASE
--------------------------------


The Lusitanian War, having been parried by a Victorious Defense, becomes Active again (but not Unprosecuted).

AzTank and the Frog must declare whether they will hand their units back to the Republic, or declare Rebellion against the Senate. (They cannot team up together for this.)

AzTank also has the option to Disband the 10th and/or 12th Veteran Legions; and the Frog to Retire the 14th Veterans. Each Retirement will add +1 Ora and Inf to the relevant senator.

The Frog now welcomes into his Plutocrats, the Middle Era Statesman Publius Popillius Laenas, staking a claim to Family #23 whenever they themselves become politically active.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/1327/yNyZLD.jpg)

PopiLae fights effectively against Land Bill proposals, and controls no less than 5 votes (including his own) among the Senate! His loyalty isn't the best however, and he only has a Mil of 2.

Not to be outdone, Malize now reveals that he has successfully convinced Gaius Servilius Glaucia to join the Populists!

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/4758/KXudV8.jpg)

Well, Glaucia does outdo Laenus in having even worse Loyalty and Mil skill, and Ora for that matter! But he adds 1d6 to any Popular appeal he makes, which fits in nicely with the Populist Faction!

No one else has any new Statesmen or Concessions that can be played.

Nor do any Players need to discard down to 5 or fewer Intrigue cards.

Players may trade or donate Faction cards to arrive immediately for a little while, until I catch up on some other things.

I will need to hear from the Frog and AzTank about whether they intend to Rebel or not, before continuing on into Turn 16 (for which I'll alert them).
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 30, 2019, 04:51:09 PM
Both Consuls hand their units back over to the Republic.

Aside from potential lag on trading or donate cards around, this ends the Revolution Phase, and also ends Turn 15.


I'll try to get the Mortality Phase and segment 1 of the Revenue Phase done later tonight; but I also need to catch up on some other things.  O:-)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 30, 2019, 06:47:44 PM
TURN SIXTEEN -- MORTALITY PHASE
-------------------------------

There are no Immanent Wars to Activate this time.

A vigorous shuffle of the increasingly lethal Mortality Bag, draws...

...family #3, the Valerians.

Wail for the Aristocrats! -- another of I.I.'s key senators passes away. His family card goes to the bottom of the Curia stack, losing all its chits; and the Harbor Fees Concession goes to the Forum for the Senate to vote on reassignment later this Turn.

So ends the Mortality Phase.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on June 30, 2019, 07:55:20 PM
TURN SIXTEEN -- REVENUE PHASE
-----------------------------

Segment one, Faction income:


I.I.'s Aristocrats have starting cash 14; personal cash +15; normal senator income +3+1; knights income +5+1; and Tax Farming +2;
= new Faction total 41 Talents.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/4016/P0dNjk.jpg)



Tripoli's Militarists have starting cash 8; no personal cash; normal senator income +3+1+1; knights income +5+6+3; Tax Farming +2; +3 from Aelius' contract to share the provincial spoils of Sicilia with Terentius a third and final time;
= new Faction total 32 Talents.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/2631/ImOx8Y.jpg)
Undeveloped Hispania Citerior collects its 10 Talents of local tax, spending it automatically on a 2nd provincial army (out of 5 maximum).


The Frog's Plutocrats have no starting cash; personal cash +18; normal senator income +5+1+1 (Plutocrat bonus); knight income +1+3 (x2 Plutocrat bonus);
= new Faction total 33 Talents.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/134/U75Z1E.jpg)



AzTank's Conservatives have 38 starting cash; +3+10+10 personal cash; +3+1+1 normal senator income; +2+2+2 knights income; +1 priestly income; +1 Tax Farming; +4 Sicilian Grain (no drought this turn so no extra possible); Developed Gallia Cisalpina Provincial spoils of +1d6+3 = +7; and half of undeveloped Sicilia's provincial spoils 1d6 = 6/2= +3 (the remainder shared with Aelius of the Militarists);
= new Faction total 88 Talents!
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/6654/9u0S85.jpg)
20 talents of Local taxes from Cisalpine Gaul are automatically spent on raising the 7th and 8th provincial armies (out of 10 maximum). 30 talents of local taxes from Sicilia are spent per prior instructions, on 1 new provincial fleet and 2 new provincial armies, now 3 and 6 respectively (out of 5 and 10 max).



Malize's Populists have 3 starting cash; +4 personal cash; +3+1+1+1 normal senator income; +3+2+1+2 knights income; +3 Mining; +5 Aegyptian Grain (no Drought this turn so no extra possible); Armaments don't trigger here;
= new Faction total 29 Talents.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/7922/QiNh1J.jpg)
Hispania Ulterior's 10 talents of local taxes are spent automatically on raising a 2nd provincial army (out of 5 max).



Erax's Progressives have 12 starting cash; +20+15 personal cash; +3+1 normal senator income; +3+2 knights income; +1+1 priestly income; +1d6 = +1 PontMax income this turn; +2+2 Tax Farming; +3 Land Commissioner (which then returns to the Forum); Ship Building doesn't trigger here;
= new Faction total 66 Talents!
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/1511/RO7HRH.jpg)


Currently the Republic has 123 Talents in its Treasury. Expected income and expenses are +100 normal income; -20 LusiWar; -47x2 Active unit upkeep;
= expected new total 109 talents, not counting random events and provincial incomes or expenses.




Tripoli must tell me whether Manlius will attempt to take provincial spoils of undeveloped Hispania Citerior. Income would be 1d6-2, and doing so will lower their chances to develop this turn.

The Frog must tell me whether Acilius will attempt provincial spoils of undeveloped Sardina Et Corsica. Income would be 1d6-5, and will lower their development chances this turn. Also, will Acilius donate any funds to help local taxes raise more provincial armies? (5 more talents for a 3rd army out of 3 maximum.)

This turn ends Terentius' public contract with Aelius of the Militarists to share half of all provincial spoils from Sicilia. Final total across three turns was 5 Talents each. This contract now expires.

Malize must tell me whether Aurelius will attempt provincial spoils in Undeveloped Hispania Ulterior. The income would be 1d6-3, and the attempt would lower the chances for development this turn.

All Players must now make faction distributions, and declare any senatorial contributions to the Republic. You may also now make pre-plans for expenses during the upcoming Forum phase (especially knight persuasion attempts, sponsoring games, any changes to faction leadership).

Be aware that aside from the perennially smirking Sulpicious, two new senators have arrived from their families: Papirius and Fulvius.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/1333/QL30dD.jpg)

Players can be planning ahead about making persuasion attempts (perhaps with help from faction intrigue cards where possible).

The forthcoming Forum Phase will start around the board clockwise from the Frog's Plutocrats, since they have the HRAO senator, Roman Consul Claudus (who for no good reason some neuron in my head keeps thinking is "Cornelius"!)


Annnd now I'm off to read and eat dinner!  O:-)
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on June 30, 2019, 08:01:21 PM
5 to Cornelius, 25 to Quinctius.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on June 30, 2019, 10:00:12 PM
5 to Cato (knight)
5 to Junius (knight)
7 to Fabius (games, bonus to Cato)
7 to Servilius (games, bonus to Junius)
5 to faction cash

No spoil attempt
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on July 01, 2019, 09:03:01 AM
Heh, now that's a plan!
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on July 01, 2019, 04:51:51 PM
The Frog must tell me whether Acilius will attempt provincial spoils of undeveloped Sardina Et Corsica. Income would be 1d6-5, and will lower their development chances this turn. Also, will Acilius donate any funds to help local taxes raise more provincial armies? (5 more talents for a 3rd army out of 3 maximum.)

Yes to spoils.  No to donating funds.

Cash should be divided equally between all of my guys and faction cash as well. 


I won't do games. 
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on July 01, 2019, 07:19:22 PM
5 to each of my guys
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on July 02, 2019, 09:54:13 AM
....I really have to wonder if the Plutocrat player (of all people) doesn't realize he only has a 1/6 chance of gaining 1 Talent, and has a 2/3 chance of OWING money instead! (1d6-5 means results are evenly spread through 1, 0, -1, -2, -3, and -4.)

:o
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on July 02, 2019, 10:12:55 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on July 02, 2019, 09:54:13 AM
....I really have to wonder if the Plutocrat player (of all people) doesn't realize he only has a 1/6 chance of gaining 1 Talent, and has a 2/3 chance of OWING money instead! (1d6-5 means results are evenly spread through 1, 0, -1, -2, -3, and -4.)

:o

He's going to work up an ol' number 6 on 'em. 

That's where we go a-ridin' into the province, a whampin' and a whompin' every livin' thing that moves within an inch of its life!
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on July 02, 2019, 10:56:05 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on June 30, 2019, 07:55:20 PM
TURN SIXTEEN -- REVENUE PHASE
-----------------------------

Segment one, Faction income:

Tripoli's Militarists have starting cash 8; no personal cash; normal senator income +3+1+1; knights income +5+6+3; Tax Farming +2; +3 from Aelius' contract to share the provincial spoils of Sicilia with Terentius a third and final time;
= new Faction total 32 Talents.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/2631/ImOx8Y.jpg)
Undeveloped Hispania Citerior collects its 10 Talents of local tax, spending it automatically on a 2nd provincial army (out of 5 maximum).
....

Tripoli must tell me whether Manlius will attempt to take provincial spoils of undeveloped Hispania Citerior. Income would be 1d6-2, and doing so will lower their chances to develop this turn.



Hmm.  Pocket the money intended to help lift poor starving peasants out of poverty or take the money and spend it on wine, women and song. Gotta Think... That's a hard one.....

I'll be foolish, albeit nice.  Give the money to develop Hispania Citerior.

Also, 5 talents to Aelius who uses it to buy a knight.  An additional 25 to Aelius, who spends it on games for 3 influence.  And 2 to the bank.  I've run out of fingers and toes, but I think that adds up to 32. :)   
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on July 03, 2019, 08:02:15 PM
Snorfed at "not taking cash from Hispania" = "giving cash to Hispania"!

I think we're only missing Erax's distributions (and plans if any).

Tomorrow is American Independence Day, which is also likely to cause weekend disruptions of various sorts. I won't (probably) be processing any phases tomorrow, although I may be able to on Friday depending on what the various family units are up to. Or Saturday or Sunday afternoon, ditto.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on July 03, 2019, 08:15:28 PM
admin request, can you tell me what my held cards are again? 
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on July 04, 2019, 03:08:30 PM
I'll drop you a pmail pronto.
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on July 08, 2019, 12:34:52 PM
"This months public bread is provided by the Capitoline Brotherhood of Miller's.  The Brotherhood uses only the finest flour: true Roman bread for true Romans."

Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on July 08, 2019, 03:15:49 PM
Dad has a tendency to not pay much attention to what bread he buys when he goes out, but he randomly got hold of some Roman Meal wheat bread a few weeks ago, and while it wasn't necessarily the tastiest bread it damn well held up over time!  O0

In other news -- we're still waiting for Erax's distributions. I think? He may be still catching up from holiday week/weekend shufflings. At least, I hope nothing's wrong with him or any loved ones.  :-\
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on July 15, 2019, 06:04:09 PM
Still haven't heard back from Erax.

I'm unsure what to do. Would the other Players like me to play the Progressives on a strict focus of help-the-Republic-stay-together basis, until whenifever Erax returns?  ???
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on July 15, 2019, 08:00:49 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on July 15, 2019, 06:04:09 PM
Still haven't heard back from Erax.

I'm unsure what to do. Would the other Players like me to play the Progressives on a strict focus of help-the-Republic-stay-together basis, until whenifever Erax returns?  ???

I'd give hm a couple more days, then play him using  the "Keep the Republic together" strategy.  Can you send him an email vice PM?   
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on July 15, 2019, 08:12:08 PM
Quote from: Tripoli on July 15, 2019, 08:00:49 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on July 15, 2019, 06:04:09 PM
Still haven't heard back from Erax.

I'm unsure what to do. Would the other Players like me to play the Progressives on a strict focus of help-the-Republic-stay-together basis, until whenifever Erax returns?  ???

I'd give hm a couple more days, then play him using  the "Keep the Republic together" strategy.  Can you send him an email vice PM?

works for me
Title: Re: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on July 16, 2019, 11:57:29 AM
Yep, I sent him a p-mail a couple of days ago, reminding him about the distributions.