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Shadow Empire

Started by Jarhead0331, April 08, 2020, 04:02:19 PM

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Geezer

OK, thanks.  I have a pdf of the latest version of the manual so reading the logistics section would probably help me see the changes.
We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.  George Bernard Shaw

airboy

Everything was going great.  Expanding.  Clobbered three minors.  Then for some (unknown to me) reason my logistics system collapsed.  I was close to 100% on my furthest units - then 0%.  I did not run out of oil for the trucks. 

Back to watching videos to try to understand what happened.

solops

Quote from: airboy on December 06, 2020, 09:58:52 PM
Everything was going great.  Expanding.  Clobbered three minors.  Then for some (unknown to me) reason my logistics system collapsed.  I was close to 100% on my furthest units - then 0%.  I did not run out of oil for the trucks. 

Back to watching videos to try to understand what happened.

Yup. Happened to me. Very frustrating. the game is deficient in summaries that give you a heads up. It requires some micro-management to stay ahead of the disaster. You have to watch the Bottleneck map overlay periodically AND combine that with observing the supply status of individual unit (click on the supply barrel at the bottom of the screen when a unit is selected). Together, with the other supply overlays, they will allow you to keep a half-assed idea of how close to disaster you are. I have found that maxing out too many industries and city sizes will collapse the supply net even if you have NO armies to speak of as the industrial complex competes with the military for the same logistics points. i had a thread at Matrix about this some time ago. I was not happy with the answers I got.
"I could have conquered Europe, all of it, but I had women in my life." - King Henry II of England
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly. - Winston Churchill
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solops

I have also found that building rail bypasses around cities sometimes helps. From the thread comments I have seen, including Das Tactic's, I doubt in anyone can answer all of the question I can some up with about the subject except Vic. What happens to rail points from city A when they enter city B, where goods stop and on and on and on, going from SHQ1 to SHQ3 through SHQ 2, stuff like that. There are some answers, but they lead to more questions. I keep making assumptions based on common sense and real world things and they are correct only some of the time. Vic should visit here occasionally, I think.
"I could have conquered Europe, all of it, but I had women in my life." - King Henry II of England
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly. - Winston Churchill
Wine is sure proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. - Benjamin Franklin

Geezer

The previous three posts have me hitting the pause button on my decision to buy.  I get very frustrated when things go south in a game and there is no way of understanding why.
We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.  George Bernard Shaw

airboy

I've watched the first Das Tactic logistics video.  I was not looking at transport bottlenecks and was instead only looking at top line production.

I think I did what Solops was discussing - I expanded my cities and industries to build more stuff - and my logistics network collapsed.  It tanked right after I had several mine and factory upgrades come on line.

Ah well - amateurs study tactics and professionals study logistics. 

My tactics were great.  My research put armies into the field that my opponents could not stop.  And my logistics system broke and my army is starving although there is food in the warehouses.

Live and learn.

Hopefully yet another restart will allow me to catch and fix this problem before it kills me.  From what I was watching at Das Tactic - there are all sorts of indicators of warning signs.  From what Solops said, you hit certain growth points and you need to make sure your logistics net can handle it.  Solops - you might want to view Das Tactics logistics videos to see if they explain what the indicators are to your satisfaction.

I had a basic functional logistics system that worked great - but then I never upgraded it.  Then it broke.


airboy

Quote from: Geezer on December 06, 2020, 11:07:44 AM
OK, thanks.  I have a pdf of the latest version of the manual so reading the logistics section would probably help me see the changes.

Geezer - I read the manual but did not understand several systems after reading it.  Reading the manual, watching some of Das Tactics videos, trying it out has worked for me.  I think I understand what I did wrong.

This is a very playable game - but is deceptively complex.  Logistics is largely ignored in most games, especially 4x and empire building games.  In Shadow Empire merely producing enough stuff and having a clear supply line is not enough.  You MUST have the logistics system to move your materials around your empire to the production facilities and then back to the units in the field.  If you don't, the entire system which was working great can get overloaded with very bad consequences.

But this is a playable game.  Complex, but playable.  If you are unwilling to be concerned with raw materials, manufacturing, logistics, and command & control (and you cannot automate much of this), then this game is probably not for you.  If you are willing to take a crack at it and study it - then it is a ton of fun.

Best comparison I can make is the Dominions games.  You have to understand the battle system and especially the hyper complex and interactive magic system to make the game work.  Once you figure those out - amazingly entertaining.  Before you figure them out - frustrating.  Being unwilling to figure them out = you cannot successfully play the game.

There are layers of reports.  Problems show up in the top layers.  The more detailed layers of reports can be ignored - until you start to hit problems.  Then you can dig into those layers as needed to identify and hopefully start to correct your issues.

I think I'm going to do a review of this now that the Steam version is out and I can do screenshots.

Geezer

@airboy - Thanks for the reply.  I'm fine with managing logistics, C&C, etc in my games.  In fact I prefer it in my games as opposed to just being able to move units anywhere and attack without regard to supply or C&C.  My concern is that if things go wrong and there is no way to figure out why then it becomes an exercise in frustration.

What I saw in the DasTactic videos from June was that logistics was like pouring water through a pipeline where the water just flowed everywhere and you had to shut off "valves" (with stop signs) to redirect it.  That struck me as unrealistic because trucks would not just load up at a depot and head out in all directions without regard to where the supplies were actually needed.  Someone posted at the Qt3 forums that Vic subsequently changed the logistics system from the original push design to more of a pull design which makes more sense to me.  I don't know if that is reflected in the latest manual but I'll take a look.

I'll have my Matrix coupon in two days which should give me 50% off on top of the 20% sale so the game should cost me about $12.  Even though I posted above about not getting it I'll probably just end up buying the game and if I don't care for it then it's no big deal at that price.  I've had a lot of fun with Vic's previous designs and will be happy to support him.
We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.  George Bernard Shaw

FarAway Sooner

Yeah.  I liken it to Distant Worlds: Universe in terms of the complexity.

My sense is that the AI (aka "the Private Market") does an okay job of solving (or at least mitigating) production problems.  But the logistical network responsibility seems to lie solely with the user.  That's not a bad thing, but it is another layer to the onion.

At least, that's my early impression.  I'm still growing and starting to run into logistical problems in  my first game, but I'm sure I'll need to build another truck depot sometime soon.  Once I understand what they actually do!   :D

bobarossa

#249
Quote from: Geezer on December 07, 2020, 12:05:20 PM

What I saw in the DasTactic videos from June was that logistics was like pouring water through a pipeline where the water just flowed everywhere and you had to shut off "valves" (with stop signs) to redirect it.  That struck me as unrealistic because trucks would not just load up at a depot and head out in all directions without regard to where the supplies were actually needed.  Someone posted at the Qt3 forums that Vic subsequently changed the logistics system from the original push design to more of a pull design which makes more sense to me.  I don't know if that is reflected in the latest manual but I'll take a look.
I last played with 1.04 (last save June 23) and logistics changed greatly with 1.05 and later.  The June videos may be on any early version of the new logistics system.

W8taminute

I really liked the original logistics system or push system as it has been called.  I know it's not realistic from a common sense point of view but if we liken the flow of supply to the flow of water in a plumbing system it makes sense.  I think the reason why Vic went this route was to have another aspect of the game where the player needed to solve a puzzle.  I didn't mind it and actually liked trying to figure out why my supplies were not reaching everyone even though I had turned off a boat load of 'valves'. 

I have not played the game since the switch to the pull system of logistics.  Is the game still fun to play under the pull system?  If I patch to the latest revision to get airplanes am I forced to play with the logistics pull system?  Is there an option to retain the old push system?
"You and I are of a kind. In a different reality, I could have called you friend."

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al_infierno

This is a total noob question, but what exactly do "push logistics system" and "pull logistics system" mean?   ???
A War of a Madman's Making - a text-based war planning and political survival RPG

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If they made nothing but WWII games, I'd be perfectly content.  Hypothetical matchups from alternate history 1980s, asymmetrical US-bashes-some-3rd world guerillas, or minor wars between Upper Bumblescum and outer Kaboomistan hold no appeal for me.
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I guess it's sort of nice that the word "tactical" seems to refer to some kind of seriousness during your moments of mental clarity.
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Boggit

Quote from: al_infierno on December 07, 2020, 05:19:13 PM
This is a total noob question, but what exactly do "push logistics system" and "pull logistics system" mean?   ???
Seems quite reasonable to me. I haven't a clue either.
The most shocking fact about war is that its victims and its instruments are individual human beings, and that these individual beings are condemned by the monstrous conventions of politics to murder or be murdered in quarrels not their own. Aldous Huxley

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Geezer

My take on it is that a push system takes supplies from a source and sends them out in all directions.  In the case of SE that would be out every road/railroad without regard to who really needs the supply.  A pull system would be where the units/facilities call for the supply and they pull the supply to them from a source as needed.
We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.  George Bernard Shaw

Lotti Fuehrscheim

The push system is the basis, and the one originally implemented.

The pull system adds so called pull points, which are all known demands for logistics. This creates a subsystem of the logistic flow that is reserved. You can manually remove any or all of the pull-destinations: assets, units or zones.

You can also manually add pull points, or block part of the stream with traffic lights.

The result is a system that can work without micromanagement in many cases, but when it distributes shortages not to your liking, you have several tools to steer it. I am quite far into a game with these new rules and I didn't need any fine-tuning, but I started to manipulate to be able to do more strategic transfers.

The game has an incredible detailed reporting system. It takes many game-sessions going through all of them, and together they offer a rich view of the internal workings of the game. You get reports on all the skills used by your leaders, where you can be amazed that your top scientist is practising survival training in his spare time. You can also read that the commander of your strategic headquarter sold some of your stocks on his own accord to pay for the salaries, so maybe next time the market is bad and your people don't get paid. Etc.