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Digital Gaming => Computer Gaming => Topic started by: Toonces on July 06, 2019, 11:04:46 PM

Title: BMS 4.34
Post by: Toonces on July 06, 2019, 11:04:46 PM
I finally got BMS 4.34 up and running today and started working out the kinks.

I also got DCS up and running, updated and with all of my modules installed.  So I was able to sort of compare BMS with DCS as a frame of reference.

I have to be completely honest here: I think maybe some of the improvements in 4.34 are simply lost on me.  My overwhelming impression after fighting the game for several hours today is that BMS has perhaps gone a bit too far in the realism department, and likewise has perhaps pushed the Falcon 4 engine too far.

I'm going to caveat everything I say with, I haven't played Falcon is a really long time, I haven't read up on the changes in 4.34 beyond some quick YouTube videos, and I only spent a few hours with it today so these impressions are relatively superficial.

Regarding realism: One of the glaring changes is in the ATC and comms system.  The typical shortcuts (T, Q, R, etc.) still bring up the appropriate menus, with some additional options in the ATC menu.  However, in order to communicate with the entity that the menu brings up, you must select the appropriate frequency in your UHF radio.  I thought that this could be automated by loading the default data cartridge in pre-flight, and then use the preset comm buttons to move through ground to tower to departure, etc., but it worked only sporadically for me.  If the cartridge is porked, or you didn't load it right, and you didn't write down the freqs, you are SOL because you're going to be out of comms for the entire flight.

The pre-flight briefing in campaign missions has more information than ever before.  Of particular note is the plethora of IFF information.  IFF was a sorely missing feature of BMS and for "realism" BMS absolutely refused to implement a simplified IFF like Freefalcon.  Now it's in there, but in order to get it working properly expect to spend some time figuring it out and configuring it properly.

While this probably appeals to the hardcore crowd, I can't help but feel that we're simply adding complexity for complexities sake, and not where it's really needed.  These new options didn't leave me feeling more immersed, and I didn't enjoy trying to figure out how to pick up where I left off without investing some amount of time learning the new systems.  Certainly as a virtual pilot you're going to be spending even more time in pre-flight, and you're going to be spending more time with the little details of flying a high-performance, highly complex fighter.  The shortcuts are becoming fewer and fewer.  More keyboard shortcuts then ever are present, and don't conclude that the clickable cockpit is going to solve all your problems.  Finding and clicking those little buttons can be a real bear.

Regarding the Falcon engine: There have certainly been some terrain and graphics enhancements, and I applaud the BMS team for continuing to stretch the realm of possible.  However, especially after coming off of DCS, Falcon really starts to show its age.  It works, but it's starting to look more like a stretched old graphic engine than what is becoming more commonplace in sims like DCS, IL-2 BoX, RoF, etc.

The new ATC features, AWACS comms, and such are welcome.  However, the voices are obviously hacked together from the voice file, and the effect is pretty awful.  The information is welcome, but it sounds like Joshua from Wargames speaking, or an automated phone system.  Further, the same old timed exclamations from pilots flying around the virtual skies are present.  After decades of listening to them they're just jarring more than immersive. 

Forget about the new cockpits.  I tried the F-4, Tornado, and F-18 and they simply feel hacked together now.  Even the F-16 pit seemed sterile and not immersive compared to the artwork in DCS.  It felt like a step backwards, and I can't even see myself flying the other jets at this point.

I tried the carrier ops briefly, but gave up because I couldn't figure out the right way to do it, all the keybindings and comms required, without more reading.  Still, while the deck moves, there are still those same buggy things that have always seemed to plague Falcon, like jets taxing through one another on the deck, Hornets taking off and flying with their wings folded, etc. 

There are three new campaigns that are interesting takes on stretching that Korea terrain a bit longer.  However, 4.34 uses a new database meaning all of the add-on theaters that folks have been working on all these years are once again incompatible.  Why anyone would continue working on theaters for BMS is beyond me.  I threw in the towel years ago once I finally realized the utter futility of ever creating something that would endure.  I don't know if the theater devs are planning to rebuild their theaters to work with 4.34 or just bag it.  I know some people are flying with dual 4.33 and 4.34 installs.

I'm not giving up on Falcon.  But the changes have broken the add-on theaters, the new DB wrecked my keybindings, and they added complexity means that you're going to have to spend some time in the books to figure out how to make the new features work before you can dive back in.  Ultimately, after a few hours I gave in to my frustration and just found something else to do.  For me, I don't find most of these new features adding value (except for IFF if I can figure it out).  There comes a point where adding complexity really starts to detract from fun, and that's where we're at now.  And, I feel like while the new comms and ATC are laudable goals, it ends up being detracting rather than value-adding because the limitations of the engine become more glaring. 

You can't beat the price, so there's no cost to try it for yourself other than your time.  I feel like this version is a step backwards, though.  I am hopeful that with some more time invested to overcome the learning curve, and when the new hacked up comms become more second nature, I'll start to enjoy the game more.
Title: Re: BMS 4.34
Post by: Jarhead0331 on July 07, 2019, 05:37:27 AM
So in other words, you're an adult with responsibilities and just dont have the time or patience to focus on learning something this detailed and complex because you're game time is just too valuable. Yup. I'm there too.

If you don't throw in the towel, check this out, I've found his videos helpful.





Title: Re: BMS 4.34
Post by: Yskonyn on July 07, 2019, 07:48:05 AM
Wow nice vids. Thanks for sharing.  :bd:
I keep being amazed by what the crew can do with the old Falcon.
Title: Re: BMS 4.34
Post by: Toonces on July 07, 2019, 11:44:01 AM
There was a bit more to my impressions than simply not having the time and patience to learn the new systems, but that is part of it, yes. 

I'm sure once I learn how to get the systems set up and it becomes second nature it will become more enjoyable. 

I know I'm in the minority here, but I continue to believe that there is a line between realism and gameplay that on one side keeps the game a challenge but still fun, and on the other it becomes more work than fun.  I sit firmly on the fun side.  There are some times when it IS fun to sit in pre-flight for a half hour getting the jet and flightplan set up, for example when I was hauling people around in a virtual airline in FSX.  Once the jet is on its way and the autopilot is clicked on, there isn't much to do, so the interactive part is playing with the systems, getting the FMS properly configured, watching the little trucks load the food and luggage, etc.  For a sim like BMS I don't think the added time in pre-flight and the additional minutiae adds to the enjoyment of the game.  For me, the fun lies in flying the mission, dogfighting and dropping bombs and dodging sams.  The info in pre-flight gives my mission context.  But all the minutiae and detail getting the jet off the ground is just complexity for complexity sake IMO.  For me, it doesn't add to the experience, it detracts from it.  I don't want to spend a half hour getting my jet ready for takeoff.  Streamlining this stuff gets the player to the fun part faster.

I always felt Freefalcon understood this best.  We didn't stress on data cartridges and comms and all the pre-flight nonsense.  The player can assume that the data cartridge is configured, the appropriate frequencies are selected, and can get on with concentrating on the real focus of the game, employing a combat jet in combat. 

Anyway, I'm ranting, and I know that most people don't agree with me, and it doesn't matter since I'm not the developer, so.

There were some nice new touches, like moving clouds and persistent contrails. 

Just my thoughts.  I was looking forward to trying this out somewhere other than Korea; I'll keep my eyes open to see how the port to 4.34 process evolves.
Title: Re: BMS 4.34
Post by: mikeck on July 07, 2019, 11:52:28 AM
Ok...so understanding how BMS falls short in areas to DCS, why would one play BMS other than the cost? What is it about Falcon BMS that keeps you from moving over to DCS? Is it flying the F-16 itself or the campaign?
Title: Re: BMS 4.34
Post by: Toonces on July 07, 2019, 11:56:03 AM
I watched some of that comms video.  I realize what likely happened.  On my first mission I was the lead flight (or only flight) in the package so my data cartridge defaulted to flight 1 comms and the presets worked.

My next flight I was 3rd or 4th flight in the package, so none of the presets worked because I didn't select the other flight in the data cartridge menu.  I was wondering what I fat fingered.
Title: Re: BMS 4.34
Post by: Toonces on July 07, 2019, 12:07:43 PM
mikeck, this is purely my opinion.

I keep going back to BMS because of the campaign.  Despite its limitations, it really does a good job of dropping you into a living war.  The initial conditions are set by the campaign designer, but once you press start the script is over.  Neither one of us is going to have the same experience because the missions are dynamically generated.

Once the campaign is running for a bit, at any given time, I can select an F-16 squadron, look at the frag list, and there will be more missions available from which to choose than an entire DCS scripted campaign.  And that's at one moment in time, and all of the missions are dynamic and unpredictable, and nobody else will have those same missions to fly.  BMS is a sim you can play forever and still keep having new experiences.

On the flip side, sometimes the computer frags stupid missions, suicide missions, missions without appropriate weapons, etc.  I've been flying long enough that I can see when the computer is putting together missions that simply won't work and I just let the AI figure it out and fly a different mission.  The campaign engine has its limits.

BMS has done a lot of work to make other aircraft flyable in BMS.  But under the hood the avionics are all F-16, and the quality of some of the pits is not usually as good as the F-16. 

DCS has a lot of aircraft that are modeled as well as the BMS F-16.  It also has the controllable ground units.  It is build from the ground up to be an interactive sandbox of very highly accurate modules integrated into a battlefield.  But, somebody has to do the work to write the mission.  The mission by its nature can only have limited unpredictability, using triggers and randomness.  But there's nothing going on that the scripter didn't put in there.  This is why I lean towards multiplayer for a sim like DCS.  MP is fully dynamic, and so it provides that unpredictability, and more aircraft to fly and much better graphics and sound.

IF Eagle Dynamics and create a dynamic campaign system that meets or surpasses BMS's, I'd move over to DCS and not look back.

Regardless, both sims are excellent at what they do, they just do slightly different things IMO.
Title: Re: BMS 4.34
Post by: Yskonyn on July 07, 2019, 02:33:19 PM
I agree very much with Toonces about the line between sim/detail and still being fun.

Sometimes sims put in stuff that is excellent for the technical nerd who drools about the buttons and intricate systems at work of a given system, while (in this case) the real life pilot would hardly ever have to configure or play around with that given system as detailed as the preflight procedure in the sim makes it out to be, because the pilot is the 'end user' of the platform and other personnel on the flightline take care of all the preflight tech stuff. The sim obviously models it with only one user; the player.

Sometimes less is more indeed. :)
Title: Re: BMS 4.34
Post by: Toonces on July 07, 2019, 02:40:10 PM
Could be that I'm becoming more Grandpa Simpson-like in my old age.

Indeed, my time to game is limited, and I find my desire and patience to spend hours learning new games and configuring controllers is waning.  I find myself increasingly just sticking to what I know.

The BMS thing sort of reminds me of the evolution of Total War series.  I thought M2TW was just about the perfect game.  But you get to Rome 2, and while there is so much to like, the settlement management, and food balance, and inter-personal dynamics...it just got to be too much (for me).  The focus shifted from providing a mechanism for getting the player into tactical battles into this management game that just isn't what I turn to Total War for.  You know what I mean?  It's like the TW guys just had too many good ideas.  BMS feels like that to me right now, just not knowing when to stop "improving" things.
Title: Re: BMS 4.34
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 19, 2020, 04:07:13 PM
BMS 4.35 should be out before Christmas.

As cool as this sim is, I just don't think I can tolerate 2D anymore. It's VR or bust for me. Also, I must say that I'm really noticing now how dated the engine is beginning to look.

Title: Re: BMS 4.34
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 20, 2020, 11:18:05 AM
...and it's out.  :peace:
Title: Re: BMS 4.34
Post by: Yskonyn on December 20, 2020, 03:42:10 PM
Framerates are a joy though. And the Dynamic campaign still turns out lots of enjoyment.

But yeah, I feel you man.
Title: Re: BMS 4.34
Post by: Toonces on December 22, 2020, 12:33:57 PM
What's interesting about this thread is that I was actually wondering if BMS was still being updated.  I stopped playing BMS with my OP starting this thread; 4.34 just upped the learning curve too much for me to invest the time to learn the new systems.

I'm glad to see it's still around and going strong.  But man alive does BMS look dated compared to the latest DCS videos.  The dynamic campaign, even with all its flaws, is the only reason I'd stick with BMS at this point.  If DCS can ever come up with a dynamic campaign engine, even one as simple as the one in the Wings Over X series, I'd probably move on to DCS and never look back.  I definitely got my money's worth from Falcon 4.0.
Title: Re: BMS 4.34
Post by: Skoop on December 22, 2020, 02:27:54 PM
The framework for a true DCS dynamic campaign is in the works behind the scenes.  Not much comment about this from them though.  A side note, if you want to manage a strategy map and plan an fly missions like BMS, then what ED is building will be what you want.  Know that scripting is already in place to have dynamic missions running on MP servers which you can fly now and are really well done.  Most of them accommodate all aircraft and you can choose from PVE / coop or PVP. 
Title: Re: BMS 4.34
Post by: Toonces on December 22, 2020, 09:09:28 PM
While the gold standard would be the Falcon 4.0 campaign (or the WoFF campaign for that matter), I would find something like WoX perfectly acceptable.

I want to log on, pick my plane, and have the game plan a mission of which I am just a small part in the larger scheme of things, contained within a bigger picture.  It really shouldn't be that hard.

While I've seen the dynamic missions on MP servers, I'm not a fan of flying MP as a single player.  A virtual squadron is probably the way to go. 
Title: Re: BMS 4.34
Post by: Tripoli on December 23, 2020, 08:42:56 PM
Quote from: Toonces on December 22, 2020, 09:09:28 PM
While the gold standard would be the Falcon 4.0 campaign (or the WoFF campaign for that matter), I would find something like WoX perfectly acceptable.

I want to log on, pick my plane, and have the game plan a mission of which I am just a small part in the larger scheme of things, contained within a bigger picture.  It really shouldn't be that hard.

While I've seen the dynamic missions on MP servers, I'm not a fan of flying MP as a single player.  A virtual squadron is probably the way to go.

I just started a WOFF campaign.  Its February 1916 and I'm flying a Nieuport Scout.  Underarmed, Underpowered, Unreliable, and its single machine gun points 20 degrees to port.  It makes a DH2 look and feel like a P-51.....
Title: Re: BMS 4.34
Post by: Toonces on December 24, 2020, 12:49:40 AM
If you can hang with it, WoFF is one of the best experiences you will have.  Man alive, it is such a great flight simulator and campaign experience.

If you play solid Iron Man you will find yourself a very sad panda.  You'll go 5, 10, 15 missions and be feeling invincible, and then one simple mistake and you're a flaming wreck.

No ejection seats.  No parachutes.  No second chances if you foul up.

You hit CTRL-E and the game laughs at you.
Title: Re: BMS 4.34
Post by: Tripoli on December 24, 2020, 09:01:02 AM
Quote from: Toonces on December 24, 2020, 12:49:40 AM
If you can hang with it, WoFF is one of the best experiences you will have.  Man alive, it is such a great flight simulator and campaign experience.

If you play solid Iron Man you will find yourself a very sad panda.  You'll go 5, 10, 15 missions and be feeling invincible, and then one simple mistake and you're a flaming wreck.

No ejection seats.  No parachutes.  No second chances if you foul up.

You hit CTRL-E and the game laughs at you.

I've played a couple of WOFF campaigns.  You are right that they are epic.  It is a wonderful game.  There may be better WWI  flight sims, but there isn't a better campaign than WOFF.  Unfortunately, I suck at virtual flying.  Consequentially, I have a lot of experience as a flaming wreck. Or a spinning wreck. Sometimes I completely cut out the German middleman in my demise, opting to kill myself via terminal prang on landing.   I got lost on my first mission yesterday, and couldn't find my own aerodrome.  Had to land and ask for  directions. :-[
Title: Re: BMS 4.34
Post by: Jarhead0331 on April 24, 2022, 04:28:52 AM
FWIW, version 4.36 was just released. I hear version 4.37 might include VR...
Title: Re: BMS 4.34
Post by: Yskonyn on April 25, 2022, 03:35:19 PM
If they get VR sorted I think that will punch a big dent into DCS's userbase.
BMS remains the king of 'strategic combat flight simulation' and as long as DCS doesn't come with the dynamic campaign the guys over at Benchmark Sims will sit on roses.
Title: Re: BMS 4.34
Post by: Skoop on April 25, 2022, 07:30:10 PM
Have you guys tried the liberation campaign app ?  It's pretty much everything in a bms campaign, just not packaged in side dcs...so you have to run it 3rd party.  I'd rather they do work on improving the AI than fiddling with a dynamic campaign.  The AI is looking pretty long in the tooth these days and the borg cheats it gets has been irritating alot of people and streamers. 

Having said all that, would be interesting to give bms a whirl after so much time in dcs f16.  I feel like I know the aircraft so much more now than I ever did flying it in bms.   

Also, I've come across some awesome mods for dcs lately that have automated some things.  There's a scratch pad mod that works for all modules that alows you to capture waypoints from the f10 map with one click and allow you to punch it in to the ufc.

There's also a new f16 dtc mod that functions as a real dtc that saves so much hassle of setting up your f16 before missions.  Rumor has it that the mod will soon extend to the f18.

So in theory, with mods, you could get the same experience in dcs.
Title: Re: BMS 4.34
Post by: Yskonyn on April 26, 2022, 01:37:35 AM
I have tried DCS Liberation. Kudos to the guys who made it!
But like you say; the AI is the weakest link here.

In BMS the air and ground war presents a much more believable environment, the comms chatter is much more immersive and the ATC/AWACS interaction is much more realistic.

In multiplayer I absolutely adore DCS, but BMS is by far the superior singleplayer sim.
Title: Re: Falcon BMS
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 24, 2022, 09:54:21 PM
It's official. The next release, 4.3.7, will be VR ready.

Simply amazing for a sim that is what, 25 years old!? I just don't know how they do it...

https://www.falcon-bms.com/news/happy-holidays-and-merry-xmas-2022/ (https://www.falcon-bms.com/news/happy-holidays-and-merry-xmas-2022/)
Title: Re: BMS 4.34
Post by: Skoop on December 25, 2022, 02:47:16 PM
VR in BMS might be a thing.  Just hearing from forums and reddits, dcs vr people claim 2.8 killed dcs vr for them, so vr BMS might hold them over in the mean time while the next dcs update sorts out vr.
Title: Re: Falcon BMS
Post by: Sigwolf on December 25, 2022, 03:19:02 PM
... disregard
Title: Re: BMS 4.34
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 25, 2022, 04:18:16 PM
Quote from: Skoop on December 25, 2022, 02:47:16 PM
VR in BMS might be a thing.  Just hearing from forums and reddits, dcs vr people claim 2.8 killed dcs vr for them, so vr BMS might hold them over in the mean time while the next dcs update sorts out vr.

There is nothing wrong with DCS VR in 2.8. I'm getting better performance than ever before on 3 different rigs.

DCS VR has always been finicky. Why an update helps some while hurting others will always be a mystery.
Title: Re: BMS 4.34
Post by: Skoop on December 25, 2022, 08:25:49 PM
I feel like much of the 2.8 dcs vr whining is from people that were barely in the required specs category for dcs vr, then got pushed out from the performance hit of moving clouds and other stuff.  It's like if your going to spend the money on vr your going to spend the money on having a beefy system to run it.
Title: Re: BMS 4.34
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 25, 2022, 10:10:55 PM
Quote from: Skoop on December 25, 2022, 08:25:49 PM
I feel like much of the 2.8 dcs vr whining is from people that were barely in the required specs category for dcs vr, then got pushed out from the performance hit of moving clouds and other stuff.  It's like if your going to spend the money on vr your going to spend the money on having a beefy system to run it.

That's true, but that is part of what is so crazy (and frustrating) about VR in DCS. You can spend thousands and thousands of dollars on new hardware and still only see a very nominal increase in performance. It is so poorly optimized for VR that sometimes even really strong components don't make much of a difference. Making matters more frustrating is that various hardware combinations can create problems or bottlenecks and software updates or conflicts from not only dcs, but windows, nvidia, Radeon, etc. can also upset a very delicate balance too. I think current gen cpus and gpus have largely conquered the problem, but not everyone can afford a 13th gen cpu and a 4090 gpu and for some, the increase in performance isn't worth the money.

For me though, I'm very happy with the detail and frames my new rig is giving me with my varjo aero. It's coming close to pancake detail and clarity!

In any event, I dont think BMS is going to dethrone DCS, but I am really looking forward to what they've accomplished and to what they have planned for the future.
Title: Re: BMS 4.34
Post by: CaptainKoloth on December 26, 2022, 03:48:34 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on December 25, 2022, 10:10:55 PM
Quote from: Skoop on December 25, 2022, 08:25:49 PM
I feel like much of the 2.8 dcs vr whining is from people that were barely in the required specs category for dcs vr, then got pushed out from the performance hit of moving clouds and other stuff.  It's like if your going to spend the money on vr your going to spend the money on having a beefy system to run it.

That's true, but that is part of what is so crazy (and frustrating) about VR in DCS. You can spend thousands and thousands of dollars on new hardware and still only see a very nominal increase in performance. It is so poorly optimized for VR that sometimes even really strong components don't make much of a difference. Making matters more frustrating is that various hardware combinations can create problems or bottlenecks and software updates or conflicts from not only dcs, but windows, nvidia, Radeon, etc. can also upset a very delicate balance too. I think current gen cpus and gpus have largely conquered the problem, but not everyone can afford a 13th gen cpu and a 4090 gpu and for some, the increase in performance isn't worth the money.

For me though, I'm very happy with the detail and frames my new rig is giving me with my varjo aero. It's coming close to pancake detail and clarity!

In any event, I dont think BMS is going to dethrone DCS, but I am really looking forward to what they've accomplished and to what they have planned for the future.

Same for me, I'm getting amazing performance with my Reverb G2 in DCS with ny new PC. It's one of those things where there's really no hardware on the planet that will let you always max out VR settings in DCS, and it's really easy to give yourself bad performance if you have one bad setting (e.g. supersampling) or one suboptimal piece of hardware ("I bought an RTX 3090, why don't I get 300 fps with my 2 GB of RAM?" In fact anecdotally I found bumping my RAM from 16 to 64 GB had a vastly greater impact on VR than upgrading my GPU). But it is in fact possible to get amazing VR performance from DCS in VR if you spend the time to carefully configure both your hardware and software - and it does take real time and effort - and when you get it the result is like no other groggy gaming experience you'll ever have.
Title: Re: BMS 4.34
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 26, 2022, 05:10:19 AM
Quote from: CaptainKoloth on December 26, 2022, 03:48:34 AM
- and when you get it the result is like no other groggy gaming experience you'll ever have.

This. This right here. It's why we spend all the money, time and effort and in the end, it is entirely worth it!
Title: Re: Falcon BMS
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 30, 2022, 11:15:31 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on December 24, 2022, 09:54:21 PM
It's official. The next release, 4.3.7, will be VR ready.

Simply amazing for a sim that is what, 25 years old!? I just don't know how they do it...

https://www.falcon-bms.com/news/happy-holidays-and-merry-xmas-2022/ (https://www.falcon-bms.com/news/happy-holidays-and-merry-xmas-2022/)

Heads up! 4.3.7 released today. Haven't had the chance to try it yet. I'm not expecting too much from this first iteration of the VR engine, but a huge step forward either way.