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DCS Discussion

Started by republic, October 28, 2013, 06:25:38 AM

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JudgeDredd

Quote from: undercovergeek on September 21, 2016, 01:16:34 PM
The slow slide of the inevitable purchase JD?!

1. It's not for me
2. But does it do that?
3. But does it do this?

................

4. I bought one lads and it's awesome
That is the way of things...usually, but not normally for things with this kind of price tag
Alba gu' brath

Yskonyn

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 20, 2016, 03:08:57 PM


So far, I've started on the runway with engines running and really just flown around in free flight, so I haven't really needed the keyboard for much.

This is THE thing that keeps me well away from VR at the moment. Its just so impractical. Of course the flying around in DCS is a super immersive experience. Your brain even makes you 'feel' the glass of the canopy of the A-10C is right there just above your head (or the cramped space of a small cockpit in Elite): a very awkward but awesome experience.
But flying a combat sortie in the A-10C marking targets, punching in coordinates in the UFC or copying the 9-line brief from a JTAC is just unpractical and gets you killed fast the way it currently stands. The cursor dot to interact with the cockpit helps , but the overal process of fighting in the aircraft in VR sucks.
At least thats my opinion. And therefore I cannot justify the pricetag for myself.
Let alone that I tend to suffer from nausea using VR quite quickly. I suspect my pilot brain has something to do with it because I have learned to 'fly by the seat of your pants' as they say; translate tactile feedback from the aircraft into cues for adjusting steering it. That is totally out of sync with VR; no tactile feedback at All and 100% eyesight input. Confusing for my brain. :)
"Pilots do not get paid for what they do daily, but they get paid for what they are capable of doing.
However, if pilots would need to do daily what they are capable of doing, nobody would dare to fly anymore."

MikeGER

#392
Quote from: JudgeDredd on September 21, 2016, 11:41:34 AM
That isn't the gist of the video...

The gist of the video is to marble at The Know girl  :D  ^-^
ignoring the bearded sidekick, and the boring marketing analysis bla bla bla and graphs
...and maybe taking a glimpse at all the short clips of game demos strewn in to decide if there is one demo that need to be more explored in detail in probably YT lets plays (uploaded by private Vive owners not the official trailers by the game developer) 

the solution for the keyboard problem is a webcam directed on the keyboard and with a key-press (or button on the stick ) a picture in picture popup (probably in the under half of the screen) gets switched on and off ... also i have read somewhere that there is already a front cam in the Vive so it only hat get activated and you could look down on your fingers ? Jarhead, did you get the front cam running? 

also i think with the almost PTSD generating immersion in some upcoming (horror or mil-sim) games a panic button would be good to quickly fade out the VR and the real front view in
(this can also be handy when suddenly exposed to VR-"heights" and the immersion is suddenly much stronger then the user had though it could ever be in the state when he just begins to explore that very game or VR in general)
         
PS: Jarhead what FPS did you get with DCS with your rig, IIRC you have the latest 1080 graphics card (SLI is no supported btw,)
(its possible that the Vive gets her obligatory 90 FPS refresh rate, while the game itself has a lower frame rate and frames get shown twice when needed)

MikeGER

Quote from: MikeGER on September 22, 2016, 02:42:35 AM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on September 21, 2016, 11:41:34 AM
That isn't the gist of the video...

The gist of the video is to marble at The Know girl  :D  ^-^
ignoring the bearded sidekick, and the boring marketing analysis bla bla bla and graphs
...and maybe taking a glimpse at all the short clips of game demos strewn in to decide if there is one demo that need to be more explored in detail in probably YT lets plays (uploaded by private Vive owners not the official trailers by the game developer) 

the solution for the keyboard problem is a webcam directed on the keyboard and with a key-press (or button on the stick ) a picture in picture popup (probably in the under half of the screen) gets switched on and off ... also i have read somewhere that there is already a front cam in the Vive so it only hat get activated and you could look down on your fingers ? Jarhead, did you get the front cam running? 

also i think with the almost PTSD generating immersion in some upcoming (horror or mil-sim) games a panic button would be good to quickly fade out the VR and the real front view in
(this can also be handy when suddenly exposed to VR-"heights" and the immersion is suddenly much stronger then the user had though it could ever be in the state when he just begins to explore that very game or VR in general)
         
PS: Jarhead what FPS did you get with DCS with your rig, IIRC you have the latest 1080 graphics card (SLI is no supported btw,)
(its possible that the Vive gets her obligatory 90 FPS refresh rate, while the game itself has a lower frame rate and frames get shown twice when needed)

JudgeDredd

#394
To me - and I don't know 'cos I don't have it - those "fixes" just sound like steps backwards in temrs of VR.

For me the whole idea of VR is to completely immerse yourself in the game. Having a keyboard popup or some way for you to visualise it within "the world" just doesn't fit that perception.

I could imagine VR working for DCS and their study simulations and, for example, some of the FSX stuff where you could get rid of the keyboard because, for the most part, it's just not be required. I mean, you'd need to proper get into your study sims because you'd probably need the manual to remember lots of things...but I'm struggling (not having it) to see how practical it is where a keyboard is required and how much that would detract from the immersion that I think VR should be bringing to the gamer.

Perhaps it's simply a case that VR isn't going to work for everything and a window into where it might not give you the benefits you think VR should is where keyboard interaction is required?

BunyapSims on YouTube does a load of DCS videos. Great videos too and some of them include use of the Occulus Rift I believe. Perhaps I should watch some to see if he ever mentions the perceived clunkiness when it comes to flight simming.

Also - even if it doesn't work for flight simming which heavily requires keyboard input, that does not mean it's not viable - not at all. I'd be more than willing to jump on board when there's broad support for FPS and racing sims when the price is affordable.
Alba gu' brath

JudgeDredd

Quote from: MikeGER on September 22, 2016, 03:01:19 AM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on September 21, 2016, 11:41:34 AM
That isn't the gist of the video...

The gist of the video is to marble at The Know girl  :D  ^-^
But yes - this

I like the banter in the videos too
Alba gu' brath

Thomm

Jarhead0331,

one thing that I could not figure out for myself so far, I want to ask you about:

When you play a flight sim, do you have the feeling that the horizon is indeed "infinitely" far away, or rather on the inside of a - albeit very large - sphere?

Best regards
Thomm

JudgeDredd

Quote from: Thomm on September 22, 2016, 03:43:39 AM
Jarhead0331,

one thing that I could not figure out for myself so far, I want to ask you about:

When you play a flight sim, do you have the feeling that the horizon is indeed "infinitely" far away, or rather on the inside of a - albeit very large - sphere?

Best regards
Thomm
lol - I'm glad you're asking JH because I don't even understand your question  :D
Alba gu' brath

Thomm

Quote from: JudgeDredd on September 22, 2016, 03:49:27 AM
Quote from: Thomm on September 22, 2016, 03:43:39 AM
Jarhead0331,

one thing that I could not figure out for myself so far, I want to ask you about:

When you play a flight sim, do you have the feeling that the horizon is indeed "infinitely" far away, or rather on the inside of a - albeit very large - sphere?

Best regards
Thomm
lol - I'm glad you're asking JH because I don't even understand your question  :D

Hmm, how to rephrase this?

When I tried out different VR sets, I had the feeling of being inside of a large dome when looking at the skybox. It made me wonder if this is a real problem or just my imagination.

To rephrase the question: Does the VR set give you the impression that objects appear to be arbitrarily far away, or is there a optical "cut-off distance" (of about 100 to 200 m) beyond which all objects appear to be at the same view distance regardless of their actual physical distance?

Best regards
Thomm


MikeGER

Quote from: JudgeDredd on September 22, 2016, 03:30:44 AM
For me the whole idea of VR is to completely immerse yourself in the game. Having a keyboard pop-up or some way for you to visualise it within "the world" just doesn't fit that perception.

well, it was just meant as a 'workaround'
until a dedicated VR UI setup from DCS came out with something smart and elegant
...there is always that usual VR game option to grab the controller and use that 'laser finger' (it seems to come out of the controller tip like seen in other demos) to press a button in the 3D cockpit  ...what we really want is a pair of data gloves with tactil feedback in the finger tips   

Jarhead0331

I have not really played it very much, but I do not recall experiencing any immersion breaking visual sensation such as the one you are describing, Thomm. My reaction was one of utter shock and awe at how amazing it felt to be sitting in a cockpit of an SU25T. I'll hop in again when I can to try to focus on the horizon and see if I can notice the issue you are concerned about.

Mike...the vive does have a forward looking camera, but I have not activated it yet. It's something I will try to set up tonight to see how it works. My understanding is it has a couple different modes so I want to check out what works best.

The easiest solution to the issue is to have some ability to look down in order to see your desktop without removing the visor. This could be done by creating a slight gap between the bottom of the visor and your face. I believe this is how some oculus users have addressed the issue. It's a simple solution, but it beats having to take your hands off the controls in order to raise the visor off your face.

The real solution will be sensored gloves that permit your hands and fingers to interact with controls and switches in the cockpit. This will eliminate the need for a keyboard since all switches will be useable inside of the VR world. Of course, you would have to actually learn all of the proper switches inside of the cockpit.

Alternatively, you could have a VR keyboard that you can interact with in the VR world. This would cause some immersion breaking since there would be a virtual keyboard somewhere in the view, but it's a reasonable solution to the issue in my opinion.
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


Thomm

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 22, 2016, 06:28:36 AM
I have not really played it very much, but I do not recall experiencing any immersion breaking visual sensation such as the one you are describing, Thomm. My reaction was one of utter shock and awe at how amazing it felt to be sitting in a cockpit of an SU25T. I'll hop in again when I can to try to focus on the horizon and see if I can notice the issue you are concerned about.

Thank you for checking! Good to read that you are having a great experience! I had no chance to try out a flight sim so far, and am thus looking forward to your reports!

QuoteThe real solution will be sensored gloves that permit your hands and fingers to interact with controls and switches in the cockpit. This will eliminate the need for a keyboard since all switches will be useable inside of the VR world.

Considering the current quality of 3/D input, this should be really easy. I guess all you have to do is to trace the movement of the index finger tip (using an actual glove), control a sphere in VR and use it to manipulate the controls. Even now, it is already easy to press buttons and manipulate objects with virtual hands in the various VR demos. I consider this a solved problem.

Best regards
Thomm

Yskonyn

#402
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 22, 2016, 06:28:36 AM
I have not really played it very much, but I do not recall experiencing any immersion breaking visual sensation such as the one you are describing, Thomm. My reaction was one of utter shock and awe at how amazing it felt to be sitting in a cockpit of an SU25T. I'll hop in again when I can to try to focus on the horizon and see if I can notice the issue you are concerned about.


Mike...the vive does have a forward looking camera, but I have not activated it yet. It's something I will try to set up tonight to see how it works. My understanding is it has a couple different modes so I want to check out what works best.

The easiest solution to the issue is to have some ability to look down in order to see your desktop without removing the visor. This could be done by creating a slight gap between the bottom of the visor and your face. I believe this is how some oculus users have addressed the issue. It's a simple solution, but it beats having to take your hands off the controls in order to raise the visor off your face.

The real solution will be sensored gloves that permit your hands and fingers to interact with controls and switches in the cockpit. This will eliminate the need for a keyboard since all switches will be useable inside of the VR world. Of course, you would have to actually learn all of the proper switches inside of the cockpit.

Alternatively, you could have a VR keyboard that you can interact with in the VR world. This would cause some immersion breaking since there would be a virtual keyboard somewhere in the view, but it's a reasonable solution to the issue in my opinion.

The gloves and accompanied display of hands inside the sim would help very much, but it still doesn't solve the whole problem.
As a pilot you will also need to have access to some kind of kneeboard solution where you can scribble down notes like callsigns, frequencies and the like .
I am talking about a pilot in a virtual wing multiplayer setting, though . This might be less of a priority for singleplayer users.

For me a big 4k monitor with a beefy card and TIR is the much more practical / comfortable solution.
I don't know if I mentioned this, but I have hands-on experience with an Occulus DK2 and CV1.

Oh and Thomm, I did not experience the 'dome' sensation you mentioned, but I do want to point out that pixel density is still as such that you will have trouble making out objects in detail that are very far away.
It's just not sharp enough yet (CV1).
"Pilots do not get paid for what they do daily, but they get paid for what they are capable of doing.
However, if pilots would need to do daily what they are capable of doing, nobody would dare to fly anymore."

MikeGER

...in the meantime there is another workaround solution for not seeing the keyboard and giving commands (i remember from older Elite Dangerous forum discussions 2014 reads)

speech input ! IIRC the software tool was called "Voice attack" 

immersion wise, the real life Eurofighter has some voice control functions too

The Typhoon Direct Voice Input (DVI) system uses a speech recognition module (SRM), developed by Smiths Aerospace (now GE Aviation Systems) and Computing Devices (now General Dynamics UK). It was the first production DVI system used in a military cockpit. DVI provides the pilot with an additional natural mode of command and control over approximately 26 non-critical cockpit functions, to reduce pilot workload, improve aircraft safety, and expand mission capabilities





Jarhead0331

So I activated the front looking camera last night. Unless I'm somehow mistaken, it is not going to be useful for a game like DCS. Basically, there are three modes in which the camera is used: 1. Room view; 2. Dashboard; and 3. Boundary.

Room view fills the visor with a view of your surroundings, but it's in is weird "Tron" like filter. Although it clearly shows your surroundings, it's impossible to make out clear details like keys on a keyboard. Also, it covers everything else on the screen, so when you activate it, you won't be able to see anything else. Dashboard view is much better, but it only works when you activate the Dashboard, which means you are pausing the game and covering the screen with the steam VR Dashboard. The camera image in this mode is normal and clear, and it attaches to one of your sensor wands as a small screen that you can move around. Cool, but useless in the context of playing a game like DCS. Finally, boundary mode activates the camera when you cross over the boundary of your play space. I suppose this is a safety mode that again, will be useless while playing a game like DCS, which is played inside the play space from a seated position.

Oh well, a cool feature, but not what I was hoping for.
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18