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Cold Waters

Started by Thomasew, September 28, 2016, 09:55:13 AM

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hellfish6

#585
Quote from: Yskonyn on April 21, 2020, 01:06:41 AM
Quote from: Tripoli on April 20, 2020, 06:40:31 PM
I don't think CMO does that.  It simulates an OODA loop, so the weapons require an amount of time before employment.  Increased crew proficiency decreases the employment time.

This. And CMO simulates a proper C3 chain, so it depends on the tech of the AI (datalink, good coverage of radar assets, etc) how quickly information passes around.
There definitely is no 'borg spotting'.

That's not totally true, and CMO by default does not simulate a proper C3 chain.

First of all, I say this as a massive fan and early beta tester for CMANO (the original) and a still massive fan of CMO today with thousands of hours in the games.

Here's an example of how borg spotting works in CMANO/CMO:

You might be trying to target a ZSU-23-4 site. You don't know exactly where it is, so you send off a spotter. Let's say it's a UAV. The UAV finds the ZSU, and now every asset that is on the same side of that UAV or is set as an ally of that UAV that is in range can immediately target that ZSU, even though only one UAV has eyes on. The Virginia-class SSN in the Red Sea can fire a Tomahawk at that ZSU site if it's Tehran. There's no chain of command from the UAV operator, though his local ops center/watch floor, to a targeting shop to the submarine's fleet watch floor, to the fleet commander for authorization, to the message traffic and into the SSN skipper's hands. None of those loopholes are modeled - and I'm not even sure if it's possible to do it without heavy LUA scripting. As far as that sub skipper is concerned, he has a live UAV feed and a mensurated, valid Tomahawk target. Ditto, an Osa-class PTG can fire it's ASHMs against a target an allied fishing vessel spotted 40nm away with no need to have spotted it with its own sensors.

Likewise, once a radar detects a target, almost any shooter in range is immediately aware of that target as well and can/will engage it based on player-editable doctrine, the shooter's own capability (does it need a fire control radar, and can the fire control radar see the target, and is the target in range of the weapon?) and OODA loop limitations.

CMO also has target fade - if you don't have a target continuously spotted (via radar, EO, eyeballs, sonar, etc.) the quality of the target fades over time, eventually to the point where you can't target it at all because your area of uncertainty becomes too big.

Now CMO has, over the years, added some mitigating mechanics. No longer can F-15As shoot AMRAAMs at targets the F-15 hasn't detected with onboard systems. Only a handful of platforms have the combined engagement capability (I think most of them are USN platforms) that let, say, an Aegis DDG shoot an SM-6 missile to hit a target on the other side of a mountain range via E-2D radar. Likewise, SARH missiles require the shooter to maintain a lock on the target the whole way in, and the game has added code that ensures that the aircraft/shooter will almost always do this unless under duress - and even do off-boresight/notch guidance.

Additionally, there is the OODA loop, which is modeled at the individual platform level (individual with a rifle or DDG or fighter aircraft) modified by skill level the scenario editor sets. This is completely different from what borg spotting in and generally doesn't affect spotting at all - it only affects how quickly a platform can engage a target.

Edit: Dmitris, the lead CMO dev, is on this forum. I'd love it if he could explain what exactly CMO does and does not do w/r/t spotting. Maybe our definitions of what 'borg spotting' is are not constant. Best I can say is that as long as one of my sensors can see a target in CMO, I can kill that target with any valid weapon system in range regardless of communications or chains of command (certainly not C3 factors). The AI can and will do it to you too.

Skoop

Been exploring Dangerous Waters a bit, found a mod at sub sim that adds all kinds of content for the sim.  Surface and subs playable from Russia, China, Nato, Aussies and more.  Even ASW in a Russian Bear bomber.  It seems that this mods focus is for weekly subsim MP matches for diehards, much like the weekly matches that go on in the Steel Beasts community.  For MP balance some of the non western platforms might have better capabilities for parity with their western counterparts.  You can play SP campaigns and missions with the mod, just have to figure out how to make the eastern platforms perform more as they do in RL or in the 80s at least.

I'd probably dive in deep, but you have to apply a fix to get it to run on windows 10, then I have to find a way for it to run on a full screen monitor at full res cause  1020 x 768 wont cut it.

Graphics are definitely dated, but your staring at sonar displays most of the time, don't think the graphics will matter. 

Toonces

"If you had a chance, right now, to go back in time and stop Hitler, wouldn't you do it?  I mean, I personally wouldn't stop him because I think he's awesome." - Eric Cartman

"Does a watch list mean you are being watched or is it a come on to Toonces?" - Biggs

RyanE

Some solid misinformation on CMO going on.  CMO absolutely does show a detailed kill chain with limited borg spotting.  But only if the scenario designer puts it in.  Whether its using disabled comms, siloed organizations, or managed side-switching, all the tools are there.

I have built scenarios where recon flights take off and no one sees what they saw until the return to base.  Its easier than most people think. 

Jarhead0331

Quote from: RyanE on April 26, 2020, 12:03:24 PM
Some solid misinformation on CMO going on.  CMO absolutely does show a detailed kill chain with limited borg spotting.  But only if the scenario designer puts it in.  Whether its using disabled comms, siloed organizations, or managed side-switching, all the tools are there.

I have built scenarios where recon flights take off and no one sees what they saw until the return to base.  Its easier than most people think.

Where have you been hiding? Good to see you.
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


RyanE

Still check in now and then.  But a regular.

Skoop

#591
Quote from: Toonces on April 26, 2020, 11:15:16 AM
What is the mod?

It's called Reinforce Alert or RA.  You can find it at the subsim forum for dangerous waters. 

Sir Slash

RyanE wasn't hiding. We just couldn't see him until one of spotted him first.  :P
"Take a look at that". Sgt. Wilkerson-- CMBN. His last words after spotting a German tank on the other side of a hedgerow.

Lowenstaat

For Cold Waters and Jive Turkey fans: Jive Turkey received an audio clip from divers on a Bahamas scuba trip who encountered active sonar.  They asked him to analyze it.  He concluded that the divers were near an ASW exercise, probably taking place in AUTEC. It was fascinating to me to follow along as he explained his analysis using Adobe Audition.

 
"Initiative compensates for a lack of skill."

Toonces

That was really neat.  I wouldn't have posted that analysis to YouTube, though. 
"If you had a chance, right now, to go back in time and stop Hitler, wouldn't you do it?  I mean, I personally wouldn't stop him because I think he's awesome." - Eric Cartman

"Does a watch list mean you are being watched or is it a come on to Toonces?" - Biggs

Toonces

'sup Team.

I'm digging back into Cold Waters again, sort of seeing what the mod possibilities are and checking out some of the stuff the community has done with the game while we await Seapower.

I just recently downloaded a mod: Epic Mod 2.27.  This appears to have a couple of campaigns where you can play as a Russian submarine against U.S. assets.  The creator has translated the place names and other text into English which makes it much more playable now.

The mod is in two parts: 2.27 and then 2.27 Tweaks.

I'm just getting into it now, and hope to have some impressions up later this week.  I continue to believe that this game could have been pushed so much further.  I'm sure hoping Seapower is that push.

Epic Mod 2.27:  https://coldhunter.ru/

2.27 Tweaks: https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=5738

You have to be logged on to Subsim.com to download that second one.
"If you had a chance, right now, to go back in time and stop Hitler, wouldn't you do it?  I mean, I personally wouldn't stop him because I think he's awesome." - Eric Cartman

"Does a watch list mean you are being watched or is it a come on to Toonces?" - Biggs

Jarhead0331

Awesome...the language issue was holding me back. Glad to see it's been translated. Will probably get it now and eagerly await your impressions!
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


Toonces

Ok, not sure what happened...I had a very long feedback post all tee'd up and for some reason my browser fully crashed.  Grrr....

So I'm going to try to recreate as much as I can remember.

I've spent a great deal more time with the Epic Mod 2.7 and feel I can provide some feedback on it now.

First, more than anything else, you have to keep in mind that this mod is essentially one person's idea of more "realistic."  I dug around in the .dat files and much of the game's parameters can be edited with a simple text editor, so things like sonar performance, entity noise levels, etc. are all very much accessible and editable.  There are a lot of new models and weapons in the mod, and I think these are accumulated from the community.  But when determining the source levels of, say, a Churchill class submarine, it's very much up to the modder's interpretation.

Second, the game is fundamentally the same gameplay as stock.  The UI is generally the same, and you're still going to find yourself in a submarine doing various missions (there are surface vessels available for play, but only single ships, you can't command a task force of ships and I find these a novel experience but ultimately pretty unfulfilling).  However, when you hop into a modded sub, say an Oscar I, you will find yourself in a submarine with different capabilities and limitations, weapons that behave differently or with different firing parameters.  This offers new approaches to the same problems.

Third, the mod offers changes in the frequency of missions, patrols zones, composition of various groups, etc.  It's the same game, but you'll find new and different strike groups, get tasked in a more varied manner, and so on.

Where the mod is interesting is when playing a different sub.  I've been playing through a 1984 campaign in an Oscar I and the submarine's capabilities and weapon load offers unique opportunities for gameplay.  For example, the Oscar I carries 24 anti-ship missiles in its VLS tubes in addition to a very large internal weapon load.  In one instance I stalked a U.S. Surface Action Group, opened up to about 15 miles and then launched a devastating BOL attack with that huge VLS load on the group.  While you can do this in an LA for example, the shear amount of metal I could launch in one attack offered a different attack.  Further, with more internal load, I can patrol for much longer without having to return to base to reload.

The mod still suffers from poor english translations in some parts.  You get the idea of what's being communicated, but the grammar can be a bit of a mess at times.  Not a show-stopper, but something to keep in mind.

The mod's author is still updating the mod, making tweaks.  This is nice in one sense, but on the other it demonstrates that there are going to be some errors in the mod that may not be immediately apparent as they're under the hood. 

I've found that weapons, in general, are not as lethal; you can't just lob off MK-48's and expect them to be the death ray they are in stock.  Getting kills requires a bit more work.

Ultimately, I like the mod because it offers an opportunity to play new and different submarines that you just don't see very often like Swiftsure or Rubis classes on the NATO side, or various Russian subs.

I mentioned that I also browsed about in the data files of the game.  In doing so, I'm very impressed by the detail that exists under the hood that just isn't necessarily apparent at superficial glance.  Things like sink rates for countermeasures.  The acoustic model is more complicated than I initially believed and it does appear that bottom bounce and convergence zone propagation paths are available.  A casual player likely won't notice these details as opening to a CZ can be time-consuming and the game isn't going to tell you that's what's going on when you get a previously lost contact much farther away then you expected.  I believe there is probably more complexity to this game than meets the eye.

This game continues to provide me a lot of entertainment, and it's my go-to game when I'm just not sure what else to play.  I sometimes think that the developers did themselves a disservice by not explaining some of the under-the-hood detail within the game.  Also, I suspect that the devs broke up and went the Seapower/War on the Sea route before they fully realized the potential of Cold Waters.  Not abandoned; CW is a fully developed game.  But it's very clear there is a lot more this game could have been pushed.  I think Seapower is going to be the full realization of what CW could have been with time and DLCs.

Let me know if you guys have any questions.  I'm in at about 110 hours and still nowhere near exhausting what's possible with this game.
"If you had a chance, right now, to go back in time and stop Hitler, wouldn't you do it?  I mean, I personally wouldn't stop him because I think he's awesome." - Eric Cartman

"Does a watch list mean you are being watched or is it a come on to Toonces?" - Biggs

Toonces

Just bumping this thread for some screenshots.  I'm playing Cold Waters on my laptop as the vanilla version with a Cold War 1990 campaign installed that I got from the Workshop.  This guy did some really good work in creating patrol zones and in general making the game a bit more difficult.  Re-load times are extended and things like submarine acceleration are also altered.  I've had at least two missions where I must have popped into the tactical map with the target in a convergence zone because I can't explain any other reason why I had so much trouble keeping contact (and eventually lost it to my dismay).

In the first screenshots, I was hunting an Oscar II with a Victor escort.  I spawned very close to the Victor and had to use some clever maneuvering and ultra-quiet running to get into his baffles and get off a shot.  The Oscar took quite a long time to hunt down after that.

This is me in the LA, above the thermocline in a surface duct, rigged for ultra-quiet, and just barely keeping the noise below the Victor's passive detection threshold.  This was some tense gameplay!

"If you had a chance, right now, to go back in time and stop Hitler, wouldn't you do it?  I mean, I personally wouldn't stop him because I think he's awesome." - Eric Cartman

"Does a watch list mean you are being watched or is it a come on to Toonces?" - Biggs

Toonces

This was the next mission, hunting the cruise missile boat, in this case a Charlie II.  You can see in the first screenshot my identification and opening maneuver.  In the second I'm in his baffles setting up the shot.  Pics are from the Charlie's POV.

"If you had a chance, right now, to go back in time and stop Hitler, wouldn't you do it?  I mean, I personally wouldn't stop him because I think he's awesome." - Eric Cartman

"Does a watch list mean you are being watched or is it a come on to Toonces?" - Biggs