The "Uber" Command: Modern Air/Naval Ops Thread

Started by Grim.Reaper, December 19, 2012, 03:07:57 PM

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chemkid

#1455
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GDS_Starfury

Quote from: Reckall on October 10, 2014, 04:32:07 AMI hate to break it to you, but Backfires aren't limited to 950kts.

youre right.  with the current state of  Russian military maintenance theyre most likely limited to remaining on the ground.
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mirth

Quote from: Reckall on October 10, 2014, 04:32:07 AM
Quote from: mirth on October 09, 2014, 01:54:40 PM
Quote from: Reckall on October 09, 2014, 01:39:25 PM
Skyrim. There are professional archers which thought that the archery model is broken, and mod it so it is more realistic.

Skyrim is your basis for realism in gaming? I hate to break it to you, but dragons aren't real.

Command is your basis for realism in gaming? I hate to break it to you, but Backfires aren't limited to 950kts. And archery exists in our world, so you can do a comparison in realism.

Beside, Dragons in Skyrim do obey laws of physics.  :2funny:

And this debate wasn't even about the genre, but about the posibility to fix a broken perception of reality in a game. Next time you decide to paint yourself in a corner, firs look at the corner.

Cheers!

This isn't a debate about anything. It's you and Herman continuing to troll Command, the same way you used to troll Harpoon.

Cheers!
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Kushan

#1458
Quote from: Nefaro on October 10, 2014, 06:20:21 AM
I've never modded databases & such in the Harpoon series so I can't comment on that.  However, the interface tools and the AI support for them have been my concerns since release.  I hope to see those continue to improve.

The developers have been very open to adding new platforms to the database, including experimental and "fantasy" platforms. I made an off hand remark in Baloogans chat room (no devs present at the time) before patch v1.04 about wanting the F-19 Frisbee from Red Storm Rising. I was happily surprised when the patch was released to see the Frisbee in the change log. And thats hardly the first case of something like that happening.

You also dont need access to the db to modify units. You can find a platform close to what you want, and add/remove sensors and weapons to your hearts content. I've used the Iowa BB's as the base for a BBG. I removed all of the gun turrets and add mk41 VLS launchers in their place. Reducing a country to nothing with a carrier strike group is fun, doing it with a single ship is even better.
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Herman Hum

Quote from: Nefaro on October 10, 2014, 06:20:21 AM
I believe HH's biggest complaint has been about not being able to modify databases and other such stuff in CMANO, if I understood correctly.  That rates under mod friendliness I suppose.  Users were told not to do it as it breaks the license agreement and people were specifically warned, here on these forums, that discussing workarounds would result in punishment. 

So the modding situation looks to be the primary subject of contention, if I've understood the ongoing criticism correctly.

I can fully understand how you might have that perception, but it is not true.  The review identified six weak areas, but some folks have focused upon one in hopes of somehow disproving it and ended up with a lot of egg on their faces.

QuoteThe Bad

7. No multiple player capability exists.  The only opponent is the AI, which can be easily tricked once it is understood.
8. The Event Engine produces strange results from teleportation of units instead of the more recognized deployment from aircraft or ships.
9. A crude Formation Editor capability means that the solitary map is cluttered with unnecessary icons and symbols.  Confusion quickly ensues when aircraft assigned to protect the carrier group cannot easily be distinguished from those assigned to expeditionary missions.  Most other games have independent window displays to control formations so that units can function as organized groups.

The downright Ugly

10. No database editing capability exists.  The database is locked.  The current items, equipment, and systems can be shuffled, re-arranged, or re-combined, but nothing new can be added nor can the performance of any current system be modified.  Players are forced to accept false perceptions of reality.
11. The UI is severely overloaded, cluttered, and user-unfriendly.  The dependence upon a single map to display all the units and functions means that the number of icons and other data displayed is extreme.  Coupled with the inability to turn off some information, this means that the player is easily overwhelmed by the data, much of which he probably did not want to see in the first place.
12. Direct player control is difficult to exercise due primarily to the single map display.  The inability to differentiate between units at a distance or high altitude means that the user must constantly zoom in and out to locate units for his orders and targets.  This awkwardness triples the time and effort necessary for the most simple and basic orders and truly makes the game a chore to play instead of a pleasure.

In Conclusion

This game is theoretically functional, but could easily have used twelve additional months for optimization and polish. As it currently stands, MNO is a hodge-podge of ideas haphazardly thrown together. It is good that MNO replicates many functions from NWAC and Harpoon3. It is too bad that many bad ones are also duplicated while helpful ones were forgotten. Features such as the Formation Editor and Event Engine are prime examples of good ideas for functions that were poorly implemented and badly integrated. The awkwardness of the UI makes the game a chore to play instead of a pleasure. A thorough re-examination of the overall design phase might be prudent, especially considering how some features generally considered "standard" within the naval wargame genre are conspicuously missing.

To me, the biggest problem is how awkward the game is to play.  The gawky manner for deployment of the dipping sonar from a helicopter is a prime example.  The function works, but it is just so hard (as in awkward) to do.  I liken the game to seeing a quadrapalegic in a wheelchair with a pencil in his mouth tapping out words on a keyboard one letter at a time.  It eventually gets the job done, but I still feel sorry for the poor guy.
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Huw the Poo

Quote from: mirth on October 10, 2014, 07:59:06 AM
This isn't a debate about anything. It's you and Herman continuing to troll Command, the same way you used to troll Harpoon.

Cheers!

Agreed, this is just trolling and I don't generally make that accusation lightly.

Reckall

Quote from: mirth on October 10, 2014, 07:59:06 AM
This isn't a debate about anything. It's you and Herman continuing to troll Command, the same way you used to troll Harpoon.

Cheers!

Yes, I already heard this lie - along with others. And, no, I and Herman neither "troll" Harpoon nor "destroyed its community": we create scenarios (many of them with hundreds of dowloads), video AARs (our record is almost 6,000 views for a single video) and give help to those who ask for it.

The problem "Command" developers never realised is that, like in a story or a movie script, the overall narrative is fictional, but it still has to be coherent within itself. Luckily for them many people are content with what they are feed - something which - BTW - explains the success of movies like "Transformers"  :)



Huw the Poo

Reckall, if you don't like CMANO, why don't you stay out of the thread?

Reckall

Quote from: RyanE on October 10, 2014, 06:02:09 AM
I can't believe Skyrim was used as an example...a game with millions of players and very console oriented.

True: SO console oriented that it spawned sites like this one: http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/ - PC only.

Anyway, if you want a more proper example, try ArmA. It doesn't need the same mental wattage needed to connect the dots.

Quote
Again, these guys went out and built a game they wanted...to their perception of reality.

Which we already saw what is. The scary thought.

Huw the Poo

You missed my question - or just wilfully ignored it, like a troll would.

Reckall

Quote from: Huw the Poo on October 10, 2014, 03:35:51 PM
Reckall, if you don't like CMANO, why don't you stay out of the thread?

"Maybe because the thread title isn't: 'MNO, where only good things may be said.'"

Huw the Poo

Quote from: Dimitris on October 09, 2014, 08:31:02 AM
So I think it's fair to say that the dipping sonar implementation in Command is both easier to manually control, and more faithfully models  its tactical limitations.

I forgot to say this - Dimitris, thank you for the explanation.  Yes, that does indeed sound considerably better than Harpoon's implementation.  I really appreciate you taking the time to explain that to someone who doesn't even have the game yet! O0

Huw the Poo

Quote from: Reckall on October 10, 2014, 03:49:33 PM
Quote from: Huw the Poo on October 10, 2014, 03:35:51 PM
Reckall, if you don't like CMANO, why don't you stay out of the thread?

"Maybe because the thread title isn't: 'MNO, where only good things may be said.'"

Evidently you think that answered my question...

Silent Disapproval Robot

Any chance we can get back to discussing the game and game mechanics instead of this pissing contest?

Dimitris.  I'm not sure if this is possible now or not but what I'd like to be able to do is to assign escort fighters into the same mission as a strike group but be able to have a hotkey or somesuch where I can quickly pull the escorts out of their role to intercept any threats that appear rather than having to go into the mission editor and pluck them out or manually override their orders piece by piece.