Microprose

[The_Admiral]

Problem is, once you go high fidelity in sims it's hard to go back...why can't we have both ....... better gameplay focus with high fidelity. 

Well, simply because... you can't ;)

The latest updates by Jason Williams on Il-2 illustrate the conundrum at hand. Go for hi-fidelity stuff, then your options are limited: each aircraft requires a superb amount of work & research, and you have to settle for self-contained theaters. We're not talking Il-2 1946 here.
The situation DCS is all the more telling, especially when it comes to the WW2 modules. You have to choose between getting a war, or getting 4 planes over a limited area (although the Normandy map ain't bad at all). And although Il-2 does its best to offer a proper single-player experience with a career engine in addition to linear campaigns with a narration of quality, DCS doesn't even try that considering WW2 is not the actual priority focus - all for the best reasons.
Resources are not finite. What you invest in hi-fidelity planes are resources you cannot bring to the actual "game" part. What would you choose between getting Cold Waters now, and Sea Power in a year or so maybe, and waiting another 15 years for Sonalysts to release a top notch 688I or Seawolf simulator?

Mind you, I don't exclude anything. I love both, for entirely different reasons. But if I were a hardcore sim gamer, I wouldn't bully myself in not indulging in a mid-level sim just because it will never be as advanced as another game that doesn't exist yet, and might very well never see the light of day. ;)

On the other hand, we're making a real-time wargame in a low-tech environment, so by nature we can allow ourselves to be more hardcore than what came before, and still accessible & rather intuitive. That's the difference between a platform simulator and a command simulation in this era - no training could prepare a flag officer to air ops in 1942 anyway, and anybody (with relative success) can go around clicking around giving orders with some historical culture of the era and gaming habits. But would you feel at ease operating a hardcore Mk37 gun director without any prior training or a thick manual to explain your job to you? Not so sure about that 

[hellfish6]

I don't have time for a high-fidelity sim. Unlike college, when I had time and I'd learn Falcon 4.0 with that 1000-page manual on my lap, I free maybe 1-2 hours a night and a few more on the weekends. I can't spend that much time learning a high-fidelity game no matter how much I'd like it. I'm still struggling just to remember how to fly the Su-25 in DCS. God help me if I want to jump to another aircraft and start the process all over again.

So I play Strike Fighters 2 or War Thunder a lot know. I get to know the plane/tank without having to memorize how to start the engine or tweak my fuel mixture. I love survey sims, not study sims.

[DoctorQuest]

+1

.....and CFS3/IL-2 1946 with and without mods for my WWII jones.

(Corrected....thanks JH...)

[Jarhead0331]

+1

.....and CFS3/IL-2 1942 with and without mods for my WWII jones.

its 1946...IL-2 1946. You should try the BAT mod though. Its really amazing what they have done. 100 years of aviation content in there.

[DoctorQuest]

+1

.....and CFS3/IL-2 1942 with and without mods for my WWII jones.

its 1946...IL-2 1946. You should try the BAT mod though. Its really amazing what they have done. 100 years of aviation content in there.

I have it and love it. Takes a while to download but it is worth it. The new install processes are a great improvement as well. Another cool thing I figured out is GOG actually has a separate download for the EXACT patch level needed for BAT. (At least they used to...)

[Julhelm]

Problem is, once you go high fidelity in sims it's hard to go back...why can't we have both ....... better gameplay focus with high fidelity. 

Well, simply because... you can't ;)

The latest updates by Jason Williams on Il-2 illustrate the conundrum at hand. Go for hi-fidelity stuff, then your options are limited: each aircraft requires a superb amount of work & research, and you have to settle for self-contained theaters. We're not talking Il-2 1946 here.
The situation DCS is all the more telling, especially when it comes to the WW2 modules. You have to choose between getting a war, or getting 4 planes over a limited area (although the Normandy map ain't bad at all). And although Il-2 does its best to offer a proper single-player experience with a career engine in addition to linear campaigns with a narration of quality, DCS doesn't even try that considering WW2 is not the actual priority focus - all for the best reasons.
Resources are not finite. What you invest in hi-fidelity planes are resources you cannot bring to the actual "game" part. What would you choose between getting Cold Waters now, and Sea Power in a year or so maybe, and waiting another 15 years for Sonalysts to release a top notch 688I or Seawolf simulator?

That's actually pretty interesting, because I can swear I remember Il-2 BoS being pitched as a lower-fidelity continuation of the original Il-2 lineage whereas Il-2 CLOD was too hi-fidedlity to be economically viable.

[The_Admiral]

Oh well, there's still the idea floating around that CloD was deeper for a few things - IIRC engine management and damage model, maybe? But since then, yeah, they pretty much made this "economically viable" topic their own. They went full speed ahead with the fidelity argument now, it seems.
Fortunately, gameplay-wise, that's still a WW2 warbird, you don't need to read 100 pages of manual to understand how to fly it - to master it is another story of course

[SirAndrewD]

I like both high and low fidelity sims honestly.   

I don't really want Microprose to go back to the F-19 days where realism took a major back seat to approachability, but I would like to find a sim maker that hits a happy middle.

Thirdwire hit that decently with Strike Fighters 2, but they didn't really continue to develop it.  I think they'd be a good starting place for what I'd like to see from a new Microprose. 

Everyone's right, the high fidelity market is very supported by DCS and IL-2 and I love both.  But just like hellfish and Dr. Quest said, I don't really have the time to spend an entire day flying one mission.   The days I do get where I can, I do it, but they're few and far inbetween as a guy in my 40's as opposed to the High School me that played Falcon 3.0.

And honestly, I just want some GAME in my sim.  I love the dynamic campaigns, I love immersion, I love to insert myself into a world and load up something that's going to be different each time.   

Man, that's why I loved Gunship, F-15, F-19, Task Force 1942 and M1 Tank Platoon 2.  It's something that's lacking in the high fidelity market.   I know for some just flying the aircraft is the fun, and for me sometimes it is too.  But I really want a world to throw myself into, take four hours out of a day off and get in a couple of missions with some context.  Something like I used to do back in the day with the Dynamix sims. 

I hope new Microprose will scratch that itch.  I know that IL-2 and even DCS has a bit of that now, but it's not the same.   You can't go back again, but no reason why you can't take the stuff from the past and understand how those concepts can work in games that go forward, kind of like what we're seeing with Task Force Admiral. 

I hope this is the return of he idea that some sims can work as games.  We like games, they're fun.  We can all use a bit of fun.

[hellfish6]

And honestly, I just want some GAME in my sim.  I love the dynamic campaigns, I love immersion, I love to insert myself into a world and load up something that's going to be different each time.   

Man, that's why I loved Gunship, F-15, F-19, Task Force 1942 and M1 Tank Platoon 2.  It's something that's lacking in the high fidelity market.   I know for some just flying the aircraft is the fun, and for me sometimes it is too.  But I really want a world to throw myself into, take four hours out of a day off and get in a couple of missions with some context.  Something like I used to do back in the day with the Dynamix sims. 

I hope new Microprose will scratch that itch.  I know that IL-2 and even DCS has a bit of that now, but it's not the same.   You can't go back again, but no reason why you can't take the stuff from the past and understand how those concepts can work in games that go forward, kind of like what we're seeing with Task Force Admiral. 

I hope this is the return of he idea that some sims can work as games.  We like games, they're fun.  We can all use a bit of fun.

Exactly. I love Steel Beasts Pro, but it's not a game. I generally have to make all the missions for myself, and I lose a bit of immersion because if I build something, I know what the OPFOR is. What I loved about M1TP2 was that the kind of unit you were in determined the kind of support you got, and the campaign you in determined the kind of enemy you faced. I loved being able to play a Marine tank platoon (with AAV-7s and AH-1Ws supporting me) against a T-72/BMP-1 based enemy, or jump into the 1st Cav Div and fight T-90s/BMP-3s with Apaches, A-10s and BFVs supporting me. It was a fairly simple thing to do - basically 1d6 tables - but it provided just the right amount of consistency to feel realistic and the right amount of randomness to feel like every battle was unique.

Today, for tank sims, you've got World of Tanks and War Thunder on the pure gameplay side (War Thunder's damage models are nice, though) and Steel Beasts on the pure fidelity side. I'm not aware of any recent (past 10 years?) games that meet in the middle. Tank Crew falls on the Steel Beasts side, from what I've seen last time I tried it. M1TP2 has never been equalled. Or Panzer Elite, for that matter. I guess we have to wait for a kind soul with talent and a budget to feel nostalgic about one of those...

[Staggerwing]

Panzer Elite...  :dreamer:

[SirAndrewD]

Panzer Elite...  :dreamer:

Yeah.  I loved it too.   You can still get it on GoG and there are super mods.

[Jarhead0331]

Panzer Elite...  :dreamer:

Yeah.  I loved it too.   You can still get it on GoG and there are super mods.

While I loved it too, It's day has past. Why play it over STA?

[Staggerwing]

Panzer Elite...  :dreamer:

Yeah.  I loved it too.   You can still get it on GoG and there are super mods.

Yes. Much fun was had. Do you remember Panzer Commander?

[SirAndrewD]

Panzer Elite...  :dreamer:

Yeah.  I loved it too.   You can still get it on GoG and there are super mods.

While I loved it too, It's day has past. Why play it over STA?

No other reason than nostalgia.  STA is much better as you say.

[Apocalypse 31]

I love survey sims, not study sims.

Hell yeah.

I want to focus on tactics and strategy rather than button mashing. For me, DCS is all about button mashing and acting as a cockpit simulator. The weapon effects are terrible - the splash and fragmentation damage are laughable for such a 'detailed sim'.