Main Menu

Hearts of Iron IV

Started by Ian C, May 13, 2016, 01:07:15 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Ian C

#45
Quote from: GeneralHawk on May 17, 2016, 04:48:48 PM
+1 robot.  I love 3 with black ice and I am very concerned with some of the changes (simplification) they have out in place for 4. Over on the paradox forums there are battles raging over this issue.  For example they have removed fuel and oil is all encompassing but it doesn't impact units so that you can still produce and use armored/mech/motor units even if you have zero oil...that's just tip of the iceberg from what I gathered in some quick reading...

Paradox have said this in regards to Oil:

QuoteSo this means that the abstract "supply" of HOI3 is now instead requests for specific equipment instead which fits a lot better in with HOI4's equipment and production focus. This also means that there is no separate fuel need as such in the game, this instead is included in production of replacement equipment which need Oil (all tanks, trucks etc). Before everyone chokes on their friday beer give this some thought. Being able to stockpile fuel generally leads to the same problems as all other kinds of stockpiling when it comes to hindsight, so by wrapping it into the actual production of equipment requests to units (also nobody would request a tank without diesel to run it, and if they did it wouldn't really be usable as a tank) everything clicks into place and player doesn't have to micro manage all movement, airplane rebasing etc to try to avoid fuel waste and focus on making sure they have access to a strategic Oil resource and replacement equipment and a clear path for units to be supplied.


So, if I understand correctly:

For fuel-burning units to be refuelled, their nation needs access to:
1. A Strategic Oil Resource
2. Be able to trace clear path for replacement supply (fuel is abstracted inside this)


Full dev diary on Supply here:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/hearts-of-iron-iv-33rd-development-diary-supply.891122/

Pete Dero

Paradox team playing as France https://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/v/66977769

(don't know how long this is available, might be replaced after the next broadcast)

jomni

#47
Quote from: Ian C on May 18, 2016, 04:03:12 AM
Quote from: GeneralHawk on May 17, 2016, 04:48:48 PM
+1 robot.  I love 3 with black ice and I am very concerned with some of the changes (simplification) they have out in place for 4. Over on the paradox forums there are battles raging over this issue.  For example they have removed fuel and oil is all encompassing but it doesn't impact units so that you can still produce and use armored/mech/motor units even if you have zero oil...that's just tip of the iceberg from what I gathered in some quick reading...

Paradox have said this in regards to Oil:

QuoteSo this means that the abstract "supply" of HOI3 is now instead requests for specific equipment instead which fits a lot better in with HOI4's equipment and production focus. This also means that there is no separate fuel need as such in the game, this instead is included in production of replacement equipment which need Oil (all tanks, trucks etc). Before everyone chokes on their friday beer give this some thought. Being able to stockpile fuel generally leads to the same problems as all other kinds of stockpiling when it comes to hindsight, so by wrapping it into the actual production of equipment requests to units (also nobody would request a tank without diesel to run it, and if they did it wouldn't really be usable as a tank) everything clicks into place and player doesn't have to micro manage all movement, airplane rebasing etc to try to avoid fuel waste and focus on making sure they have access to a strategic Oil resource and replacement equipment and a clear path for units to be supplied.


So, if I understand correctly:

For fuel-burning units to be refuelled, their nation needs access to:
1. A Strategic Oil Resource
2. Be able to trace clear path for replacement supply (fuel is abstracted inside this)


Full dev diary on Supply here:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/hearts-of-iron-iv-33rd-development-diary-supply.891122/
Mixed feeling for me. Love that it's getting simpler but quite sad at the same time due to loss of detail.  How would that affect Japan's oil problem where they need to move around oil from Boreneo as done in WITP?  Will it break the Pacific War? Or it's now more about stationing convoys and escorts on sea areas.


Ian C

#49
Quote from: jomni on May 18, 2016, 05:00:19 AM
Mixed feeling for me. Love that it's getting simpler but quite sad at the same time due to loss of detail.  How would that affect Japan's oil problem where they need to move around oil from Boreneo as done in WITP?  Will it break the Pacific War?

I agree and also have the same concerns.

Paradox forums have always had a continuing vein of sentiment that fans want more realism, more historical details. Mr Wester says on their video "we make hardcore games for a demanding audience". I'm not sure whether everyone will agree with that. Seems that a huge hardcore audience demanded NATO map counters and got told to shut up.
Putting all that detail into making battle plans workable and having the proper map symbols for fronts just like WW2 historical maps is wonderful, but the NATO symbols in the game are not square counters but little modern-style rectangular tokens with health bars on them. It's a bit like everyone going to a WW2 recreation event dressed in full national military kit but wearing a pair of hi-tech NIKE running shoes.

It's an old peeve but I wanted to get that off my chest. Buying the game, going to enjoy it. I'm certain that someone will mod counters in.

jomni

#50
Lately I'm having a fun time playing Supreme Ruler 2020. A flawed game but I love the details on the economy, variety of military units, unit designs, and logistics.

Regarding NATO map counters. Were they actually used in WW2 given that NATO was not around?
Of course the west its predecessor but Germans and Russians used a different set of esoteric symbols.


sandman2575

I think the supply/fuel system is a marked improvement, actually.

In HOI3, it was simple (esp. if you start in 1936) to stockpile essentially unlimited oil, fuel and all the needed resources if you were playing as one of the major powers. Plus there was a hard cap at 999,999 (IIRC) which, of course, was in no way any more 'realistic' than the new system being implemented in HOI4. It was a simple system to 'game,' and indeed the game pushed you in that direction anyway -- stockpile max everything, which was entirely possible to do by the time war broke out.

I think the new system will actually be more challenging for the player. You need to secure the source of your oil. Lose it at any point, and you're in serious trouble. I can easily see this being more of a concern for the player, and a less easy system to game, than HOI3.

Plus, the supply system in HOI3 was a shambles. HOI4 can only make that better.

In all the countless hours I've played HOI3, I never faced anything like a serious shortage of fuel, oil etc., again, playing as any of the 5 major powers. Playing with Black ICE was another matter, although even there the only serious shortage I faced playing as Germany was in manpower once the war with USSR got going in earnest.

jomni

No experience with Hoi 3 (have it but have not touched it). but it seems that the solution they picked was an easy way out. Meaning it's simple and did the job but they could have been more creative with more detail. But a nightmare to implement I guess.

Anyway, I'll see how it goes.

JudgeDredd

I'm pretty excited about this one  O0
Alba gu' brath

ArizonaTank

Quote from: jomni on May 18, 2016, 07:03:43 AM
Regarding NATO map counters. Were they actually used in WW2 given that NATO was not around?

I believe the system goes back to a US system from WWI.  It was certainly in use by the US in WWII.
Johannes "Honus" Wagner
"The Flying Dutchman"
Shortstop: Pittsburgh Pirates 1900-1917
Rated as the 2nd most valuable player of all time by Bill James.

JudgeDredd

That's brought up from time to time (with other games) and my view is this....so?  :D

Seriously though - I understand those counters. I know what they mean. I couldn't really care less if they weren't in use in 1942. I'm playing a game in 2016  ;D

All I know is they're better than those sprites.
Alba gu' brath

Ian C

#56
Quote from: jomni on May 18, 2016, 07:03:43 AM

Regarding NATO map counters. Were they actually used in WW2 given that NATO was not around?



The point I'm making is that it would be awesome to recreate those maps we are familiar with from historical articles and books, in the game. HOI 4 actually has mostly everything below except the divisional symbols. It's not a big deal to me, but is to many.





Jarhead0331

Quote from: jomni on May 18, 2016, 07:03:43 AM
Lately I'm having a fun time playing Supreme Ruler 2020. A flawed game but I love the details on the economy, variety of military units, unit designs, and logistics.


You should really be playing Supreme Ruler Ultimate. It is the pinnacle of the series and combines pretty much everything from each prior game in the series. 
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


sandman2575

Quote from: Ian C on May 18, 2016, 08:25:27 AM
The point I'm making is that it would be awesome to recreate those maps we are familiar with from historical articles and books, in the game. HOI 4 actually has mostly everything below except the divisional symbols.

This is *exactly* why I'm so excited about HOI4's Battle Planner feature. I think it's the closest thing in PC games to recreating those operational-type maps you posted. In HoI3 you could draw up maps like that but they were just window-dressing. The idea of integrating those maps into the gameplay itself is, to me, extremely exciting.

I'm not worried about the counters issue at all. It will be one of the first things people mod, and there will soon be dozens of counter mods you'll be able to choose from. This game (like Pdox titles previous) is going to spawn a million mods.

Greybriar

^ I figure Paradox will release countless Sprite Pack DLC for those who don't like NATO counters to purchase.
Regardless of how good a PC game may be it will always have its detractors and no matter how bad a PC game may be it will always have its fans.