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Hearts of Iron IV

Started by Ian C, May 13, 2016, 01:07:15 PM

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SirAndrewD

In agreement with SDR very sadly.  I did the Steam Refund this evening after coming up to the time limit and watching a lot of Lets Plays.  I haven't really let the Paradox forums persuade me as they tend to sometimes be a den of negativity.

I think the real thing that it came down to was just the feeling that I wasn't doing much.  Sure, I could micromanage and give individual orders, but that actually didn't seem to be the best option given how much emphasis is put in having the AI control things.   The removal of simple things like letting you know when battles were over makes micro counter intuitive and more a handicap than just giving things to the AI and letting it fly.  I found myself watching TV in the background while the game was just successfully doing its own thing more than once.

I feel like the game will improve and a lot of the things people feel are "missing" or "not fleshed out" will probably be added, slowly, via paid DLC.  I can already see room for packs that add more layers to the Naval and Air options, and likely "enhancements" that will turn things like "Weapon 1" into "Springfield Rifle".  This just rubs me a bit the wrong way. 

I feel that if you either didn't get the prior HoI games, or never played them, then there's nothing wrong with HoI4 and there's fun to be had with it.  I can't and won't call it a bad game, just not how I like to play grand strategy.  I might rebuy later, when the prices drop and a lot of the very inevitable DLC has been released.
"These men do not want a happy ship. They are deeply sick and try to compensate by making me feel miserable. Last week was my birthday. Nobody even said "happy birthday" to me. Someday this tape will be played and then they'll feel sorry."  - Sgt. Pinback

Raied

I played for 5 hours until now, and I almost understood all the mechanism. For me this is not a successor of HOI games not for HOI3 at least, it is a different game, it is not bad it is actually good grand strategy game with more streamlined gameplay. 
HOI3 was for me at least a mixture between the traditional paradox grand strategy and a wargame sort of, with all those detailed OOB, complex mechanism of economy and supplies, many options to operate air wings etc.
I like HOI3 because it was somehow a WW2 simulation, it took me long long time to learn most of the things and after that I enjoyed the strategy layer of it, but everytime I run HOI3 to play a new game i feel lazy to do all those tedious tasks all over again, assigning  generals, armies, division etc, micromanaging the airforce tasks, plus the political, trade and espionage games. However, the good thing about HOI3 that it has an AI control option,which was really cool to assign some armies to the AI and to have the feel that you are a ruler of nation rather than you are basically "god" that controls every single thing, but unfortunately the AI was incompetent and in order to win and be more efficient you have to control them yourself which is very tedious for me in a grand strategy game.   
My point is HOI4 is game that focus to play a pure strategy game that you play as head of nation, the rest of mechanism is abstracted, no AI control but deeply abstracted mechanism. It is enjoyable, it is simplified yes, but the game direction is clear.
If I want to enjoy things in HOI3 and more, which are detailed OBB, deep supply system, generals and accurate equipment name, I would jump to play games like WitE/ WitW, DC:B and AGEOD games.

salazarus

I did the refund. For me the game is to shallow. In HoI 3 we have too much micromanagement but in HoI 4  they cut too much stuff. I only like how production and divisions building is handled. All other elements are lacking something. After few DLCs the game will be better, but for now it's not worth it. And I think that we will find in DLCs features that should be in the game from the beginning.

jomni

#303
So much hate eh? 
I was wondering. They were quite transparent about the features through blogs, dev diaries, and World War Wednesday's right? Why still buy with the hopes that there's more to it?

Rekim

The release lined up perfectly with my days off.  I managed 15 hours in the first two days. a nod to mother nature for the rain  O0


loving it so far.

Surtur

I started yesterday and got about three hours into the campaign.

I won't miss the OOB from HoI3 too much, but I will mis the more in-depth logistics system. Regarding the national focus system, I am unsure if I love it or hate it.

What makes me optimistic is that it is in a much(!) better shape than when HoI 3 released and with the many DLC will come many improvements, though we will have to pay for these of course.

I only wished I realised that it is hard for democracies to start wars before I turned my Italy into one...
"Gentlemen, You Can't Fight in Here. This is the War Room!"

chemkid

Quote from: panzeroo / BLACK ICE author, yesterday on paradox black ice mod forum
As I have said alot to people both here and in private, the vanilla HOI IV is not my ideal. But it's the future of HOI and so we are going to give it our best efforts to mod it into a game we can obsess over. It's going to take a lot of effort and all your support , but I think we will not let you guys down.

so, there's still hope for the folks waiting to dig their teeth into something 'hardcore'... until then, wait for the 'final' release of BICE for HOI3!

cheers!  :D

source:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/hoi-iv-black-ice.923395/page-12

Ian C

#307
Well this is really bizarre. I've seen so many mixed feelings and yet, with myself as one of the most critical people on the HOI series in the past, I find this version the best so far. After the rough edges have been dealt with, I think this has very great potential.

One of the main gripes is that there is an almost overwhelming deal of info you are bombarded with and there's no manual. This has to be dealt with and a wiki is not the answer. If Paradox updates the game and changes the systems then they should correct the manual, instead of withholding one until they have 'fine tuned' the game.

I think the issue is that people want accessibility but detail. That's a tall order. On one end of the scale, we have Axis & Allies with simple detail and high accessibility and playability. On the other, War in the West/East/War in the Pacific, with extreme detail deep immersion but less simplicity and long turns. Getting that sweet spot in the middle ground to satisfy grognards and more casual WW2 junkies is nigh impossible. However, with HOI4, I feel they have got closer to achieving this. HOI 4 for me is a huge improvement over HOI 2 and HOI 3.

Hofstadter

I love this game, my only nitpick is that theres no OOB. My god that annoys me.
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Grim.Reaper

Count me in so far....I don't have as much time in yet and experience as other people, but I am liking what see.  As I mentioned before, I am not as hard core as others so maybe that has a lot to do with it, but I find myself much more interested than past versions where I never got far.  And this is only the start so I can only imagine how the game will grow, although I hope it does not turn back into an over complex game for me...unless optional.  Plus, from what I read along the way, not many surprises...pretty much what I expected.

I can completely understand some being disappointed and not liking the direction, but I am guessing the game will have more wide appeal and sell more, which I am sure was the goal of the company.  Sure, there will be countless dlc and expansions, but that is no surprise either and I am ok with that especially when I paid less than $30 for it...bought many other games at a higher price that won't get played as much as this.

Looking forward to the weekend so I can dive much deeper....

Ian C

#310
Quote from: chemkid on June 08, 2016, 05:07:44 AM
Quote from: panzeroo / BLACK ICE author, yesterday on paradox black ice mod forum
As I have said alot to people both here and in private, the vanilla HOI IV is not my ideal. But it's the future of HOI and so we are going to give it our best efforts to mod it into a game we can obsess over. It's going to take a lot of effort and all your support , but I think we will not let you guys down.

so, there's still hope for the folks waiting to dig their teeth into something 'hardcore'... until then, wait for the 'final' release of BICE for HOI3!

cheers!  :D

source:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/hoi-iv-black-ice.923395/page-12

I love Black Ice. I never went back to HOI 3 vanilla after playing it.

From what I read on that Black Ice thread it appears that many consider the base game too simple. Maybe I'm deluded, but I'll have a go at listing why I like the game so much.

For me, the combat, air and naval systems are the most realistic and immersive yet.

The division designer the deepest yet- you can build a single battalion and upwards. This means that you can create historically accurate units down to the level of a commando/spec forces raiding party. Something you couldn't do with HOI 3.

We have straits. The Royal Navy cant just sail into the Baltic now, because the Denmark straits can be closed. Same with Gibraltar - and axis subs can try to pass.

To stage an amphibious invasion you need proper air and naval superiority (not just on paper but to fulfill the game mechanic for the invasion to occur), giving the German player the same difficulties for mounting operation Sealion, as well as for mounting D-Day, Husky or Torch or theoretically any major invasion. Something you could never do in HOI before.

Strategic warfare is more real and has proper effects.

You have individual ships and planes. The granularity is deep.

OOB - cut down yes, but easier to control. I actually enjoyed taking control of Japan with it's unwieldy Chinese front and nightmare Pacific OOB, which in HOI3, I could and wouldn't do.

The old way of tech research from HOi2 is back, which almost everyone loved.  Simple to use but strategically important and with plenty of options to add tech teams.

You can improve units in a realistic way. Re-equip units. Air Wings can gain air aces. You can mix air unit types in wings.

You can see weather directly on the map, and it's not eye candy, it's game weather that has effects and there's no need for a separate weather map mode, like HOI3.

I had a ton of basic outdated Infantry equipment and used it to create single regiment units, with minimal training, low reinforcement priority and deployed them quickly to defend home areas. In other words, home guard militia. I also build a couple of Marine regiments and trained and equipped them to high heaven. Then I sent them on raids and got intel on troops in an area I was going to invade. In other words, Commando Spec Forces recon. Something you couldn't do in HOI3.

I could go on.

And it's only version 1. No DLC, no major mods yet.

Really, I'm in awe of how many people dislike this game.


Surtur

Great list Ian!

Though I understand people are dissapointed by the fact that airplanes at tanks etc. no longer require fuel to operate.
"Gentlemen, You Can't Fight in Here. This is the War Room!"

Rayfer

Quote from: Ian C on June 08, 2016, 05:19:02 AM
Well this is really bizarre. I've seen so many mixed feelings and yet, with myself as one of the most critical people on the HOI series in the past, I find this version the best so far. After the rough edges have been dealt with, I think this has very great potential.

One of the main gripes is that there is an almost overwhelming deal of info you are bombarded with and there's no manual. This has to be dealt with and a wiki is not the answer. If Paradox updates the game and changes the systems then they should correct the manual, instead of withholding one until they have 'fine tuned' the game.

I think the issue is that people want accessibility but detail. That's a tall order. On one end of the scale, we have Axis & Allies with simple detail and high accessibility and playability. On the other, War in the West/East/War in the Pacific, with extreme detail deep immersion but less simplicity and long turns. Getting that sweet spot in the middle ground to satisfy grognards and more casual WW2 junkies is nigh impossible. However, with HOI4, I feel they have got closer to achieving this. HOI 4 for me is a huge improvement over HOI 2 and HOI 3.

Well written...I agree.  Personally, I've stopped hating games because of what they aren't or what I wish they were, and instead began enjoying them for what they are.

Rayfer

Quote from: Hofstadter on June 08, 2016, 05:31:29 AM
I love this game, my only nitpick is that theres no OOB. My god that annoys me.

I'm loving it too Hof.  My personal nitpick issue is the lack of a mini-map.

sandman2575

Yeah, must say I'm loving HOI4 too.  Sorry to hear that so many are disappointed though.

I could never go back to HOI3. That's not too hard, as I had given up HOI3 a few years ago at this point. Enjoyed BlackICE for a while. But while I loved HOI3, I was always constantly aware of things that it did badly, or the things that it seemed the game was 'trying' to do but hadn't figured out how to do it correctly. It was a great, deeply flawed game, in my view.

Maybe I'm just an optimist, but I honestly feel each version of HOI has been a big step forward from the one before it. There's no question that HOI4 has lots of room to grow. The AI clearly needs more work. But I really don't find it shallow in the least (and I was among the crowd that *really* was unhappy to see the OOB go -- I still miss it, but not nearly enough to go back to HOI3).

Anyway, just to offer another perspective. I am a little surprised at just how much a lot of people dislike HOI4 -- I had kind of expected more of the situation that played out when EUIV released -- some disappointment among the hard-core about some of the changes, but overall, a large embrace of EUIV as the better game. Clearly that has not happened with HOI4. But we're still in very early days with this game.