Hearts of Iron IV

[sandman2575]

My own personal theory is that Paradox has some kind of secret aversion to reproducing history.

I don't think it's anything so conspiratorial. I think you're vastly underestimating the challenges of getting a game like HOI4 - a real time simulation (using the term loosely) of the whole world - to reproduce history. There are almost countless variables at play.  I think HOI4 makes an admirable attempt - the national focus trees are clearly intended to get the player and the AI to follow a roughly historical path. But short of outright scripting events (and the nat. focuses do a little of that already), I'm not sure there's any real way to get HOI4 to resemble history with much accuracy.

I think Pdox has 'learned to stop worrying and love alternative history'. It's surely no accident that the 2 big pre-release trailers featured unhistorical scenarios -- Germany conquers UK / USSR conquers Europe and then goes to war with Japan.

[RyanE]

I have never understood people who want five million variables in an historical simulation, then complain that they can't repeat history exactly.  If you went back to 1936 and started history over, I bet it wouldn't come out the same.  If you want to repeat history exactly, you're better off just reading a history book.

I find HOI4 great to play and find most decisions fairly plausible.  Is the AI perfect and great...no.  But I have seen any number of humans make stupid mistakes and decisions.  There are people who have their pet peeves on any game and will spend more time testing our those peeves than playing the game.  The key word is "game"...play it.

[Rayfer]

I have never understood people who want five million variables in an historical simulation, then complain that they can't repeat history exactly.  If you went back to 1936 and started history over, I bet it wouldn't come out the same.  If you want to repeat history exactly, you're better off just reading a history book.

I find HOI4 great to play and find most decisions fairly plausible.  Is the AI perfect and great...no.  But I have seen any number of humans make stupid mistakes and decisions.  There are people who have their pet peeves on any game and will spend more time testing our those peeves than playing the game.  The key word is "game"...play it.

+1 Couldn't have wrote any better myself!!

[Swatter]

How the hell can a player as Germany recruit and deploy enough divisions to score a quick win in the west and if not be in a position to invade Russia, at least have enough security on the eastern border to hold them?

Bingo -- this is the problem.  HOI4 is hugely unbalanced right now on many levels, one of the most damaging being the AI's *massive overproduction* of divisions. Many of them are crappy divisions, but when you crank out 700 divisions, well, as Stalin is supposed to have said, quantity has a quality all its own. Unfortunately that number is not an exaggeration. In my current game as Germany, the info. on the 'current wars' screen shows that USSR has somewhere between 500-900 divisions. I have around 200. I dug up a fact recently that indicated the USA, at the *peak* of its power toward the end of WW2, never had more than around 230-240 divisions *in all the services combined*. Even for the feared Soviet hordes, 700 divisions seems a tad overkill.

I don't see how the Germany player can possibly contend with USSR as HOI4 currently stands. In a couple of aborted play-thrus I've experienced playing Germany, USSR declared war on me every time. I never initiated Barbarossa, because USSR was itching to fight well before June '41. In my current game, it's Sept. '41 -- USSR declared war on me months ago and we are locked in a death match. I can't initiate any offensive, because all I'm doing is trying to hold a long front-line that extends from Estonia down to Romania. I easily have 80% of my divisions and 95% of my airforce committed to holding the Russians back, and I also have ample help from Italian, Hungarian, Romanian, and Yugoslavian allies. But it's like the proverbial dam that springing leaks everywhere. There's only a limited number of fingers I can use to plug the leaks, and sooner or later, the whole thing's gonna give way.

So yeah, not sure what to say. HOI4 seems fairly unplayable as Germany. USA joins the war way too early, and USSR gets the jump on you every time.

In my game as the USSR, I had a historical amount of divisions (~330) while the Germans had 500-700. The AI produces too many divisions (poor quality as mentioned). Venezuela joined the Axis in my game and sent 16 divisions as an expeditionary force. There is some definite balancing issues that need to be addressed.

[jomni]

Country with the biggest army in my world is France. About 900 divs.

[RyanE]

My point us that on these and the Pdox forums, one person complains the USSR doesn't build enough divisions and a few days later someone complains its building too many.  There are so many variables and settings, I am not sure anyone can compare games without listing a whole heap of settings.  Walking in and saying just "XXX builds too many cheap divisions" adds very little to figuring balance out.

I always think about Nazi Germany not  putting the economy on a war footing until 1942.  If the AI did that, people would be screaming for someone's head at Pdox.  How about taking all of your carriers, putting them in one giant "super-fleet", and attacking the largest US naval base in the Pacific?  Or how about invading the China with a relatively small army in 1937?  If the AI did any of those things, we would be calling it one of the worst AIs ever.

[jomni]

My point us that on these and the Pdox forums, one person complains the USSR doesn't build enough divisions and a few days later someone complains its building too many.  There are so many variables and settings, I am not sure anyone can compare games without listing a whole heap of settings.  Walking in and saying just "XXX builds too many cheap divisions" adds very little to figuring balance out.

I always think about Nazi Germany not  putting the economy on a war footing until 1942.  If the AI did that, people would be screaming for someone's head at Pdox.  How about taking all of your carriers, putting them in one giant "super-fleet", and attacking the largest US naval base in the Pacific?  Or how about invading the China with a relatively small army in 1937?  If the AI did any of those people things, we would be calling it one of the worst AIs ever.

Unfortunately the setting of the game attracts an infinite amount of passionate nitpicking. It's the same with Gary Grigsby stuff.

We don't see complaining at this level in EU.  And people accept all sorts wacky un-historical results there.

[Con]

How the hell can a player as Germany recruit and deploy enough divisions to score a quick win in the west and if not be in a position to invade Russia, at least have enough security on the eastern border to hold them?

Bingo -- this is the problem.  HOI4 is hugely unbalanced right now on many levels, one of the most damaging being the AI's *massive overproduction* of divisions. Many of them are crappy divisions, but when you crank out 700 divisions, well, as Stalin is supposed to have said, quantity has a quality all its own. Unfortunately that number is not an exaggeration. In my current game as Germany, the info. on the 'current wars' screen shows that USSR has somewhere between 500-900 divisions. I have around 200. I dug up a fact recently that indicated the USA, at the *peak* of its power toward the end of WW2, never had more than around 230-240 divisions *in all the services combined*. Even for the feared Soviet hordes, 700 divisions seems a tad overkill.

I don't see how the Germany player can possibly contend with USSR as HOI4 currently stands. In a couple of aborted play-thrus I've experienced playing Germany, USSR declared war on me every time. I never initiated Barbarossa, because USSR was itching to fight well before June '41. In my current game, it's Sept. '41 -- USSR declared war on me months ago and we are locked in a death match. I can't initiate any offensive, because all I'm doing is trying to hold a long front-line that extends from Estonia down to Romania. I easily have 80% of my divisions and 95% of my airforce committed to holding the Russians back, and I also have ample help from Italian, Hungarian, Romanian, and Yugoslavian allies. But it's like the proverbial dam that springing leaks everywhere. There's only a limited number of fingers I can use to plug the leaks, and sooner or later, the whole thing's gonna give way.

So yeah, not sure what to say. HOI4 seems fairly unplayable as Germany. USA joins the war way too early, and USSR gets the jump on you every time.

A friend of mine playing HOI4 has Germany dominating the world.  He dropped paras on Brittain in 1937 and conquered them out of the war by 38.  This left him free to run rampant in Afrika take Turkey and initiate Barbarossa by 41.  Currently he has crushed the Comintern and is now rolling his Panzer Divisions against the US in the Pacific theater.

I am playing Italy and we just hit May 43 before the Russians started the war.  I am currently taking Turkey and then plan on entrenching my mountain divisions in the Caucuses and Ashabad mountain ranges.  Lets see if we can hold off the bear.

Con

Pics...or it didn't happen.

How are airborne units going to be able to take control of the UK without armor, mechanized and heavier infantry support? How was he able to build enough airborne units and transports to get enough boots on the ground by 1937? What about the other allied powers? When he declared war on the UK, didn't the UK bring France and everyone else into the war? If so, how was he able to hold the Seigfried line? i would expect his divisions in mainland Germany to be minimal since he would have to have placed so much effort into building those airborne units.

I dunno...I'm sure its possible, given a lot of luck, but still...I'm pretty skeptical.

So I got the pics from my friends game...its a true screenie since he doesnt have Fraps and he never has really done any posting on blogs he went the easy route and took photos of his screen with his iphone and sent them to me! :)

Here they are showing the German Reich owning the Comintern invading Brazil, fighting in the pacific and occupying the UK.

[glen55]

Unfortunately the setting of the game attracts an infinite amount of passionate nitpicking. It's the same with Gary Grigsby stuff.

We don't see complaining at this level in EU.  And people accept all sorts wacky un-historical results there.

Well.  EU 4 is pretty much patched-up EU 3 with a new skin.  And when EU 3 came out, people were screaming like banshees.  Let's see how much fire HOI 4 is drawing 9-1/2 years worth of patches from now if it actually survives as long as EU 3 has (even if it's called HOI 9 by then).

I'm not totally arguing with you, far more people know far more about WW2 history than about 1444-1820 history, and that just gives more opportunity for complaints.  But as I remember, EU 3 was not warmly received out of the box.

[acctingman]

I'm finding that this game hurts my brain 

I'm a 20 yr MMO'er and I'm used to spamming buttons and combat combos, etc....I'm always in a rush to get to the end prize. That approach is toxic for a game like this (for any strategy game for that matter....hell, I even struggled a little with the Battle Academy series and that's pretty beer & pretzels for strategy games).

I was playing as Brazil and I conquered Uruguay (that's like saying you beat up a 1 armed 5 yr old). Anyways....by end of 1941 I thought I could take Argentina. WRONG. Got my ass handed to me. I found myself giving up and left it on the highest game speed....."racing" to my inevitable end.

Maybe this game and the ilk aren't for me  Maybe I'll re-start my Brazil game and take it one month (game time) at a time...go slow (if that's possible)

One good thing is coming from this......I now feel the urge to get into the "touchy feely" gaming. Time to paint some 6mm mini's and go "voom....voom" on the table top!  O0

Thanks all for this thread.

[jomni]

Actually later patches of EU4 were not well recieved too. Expensive / unbalancing / unusable by AI.

[dinsdale]

Country with the biggest army in my world is France. About 900 divs.

900 or 90?

Seriously, if any country is building 900 divisions its ludicrous. France had a population of 40 million in 1945, and is able to put out 18 million front line troops. Conscription of all men and women from age 4 and up?

The Soviets had between 500 and 600 in 1945, most of them understrength. The idea that half the population of France is in a front line combat division puts realism to be somewhere adrift of Risk.

[jomni]

900. Probobly got some from colonies abroad too. They own most of Africa.

[JasonPratt]

But is that 900 at 10% strength? -- so like 90 divs but 10x spread out in manpower?  :-\

[Ian C]

So I got the pics from my friends game...its a true screenie since he doesnt have Fraps and he never has really done any posting on blogs he went the easy route and took photos of his screen with his iphone and sent them to me! :)

Here they are showing the German Reich owning the Comintern invading Brazil, fighting in the pacific and occupying the UK.

He has 8 Nukes and has taken over most of the world. Also not too concerned about doing more research or a National Focus. I'd say it's not unlikely he might be using the help of console cheats. What is the date?