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Shadow Empire

Started by Jarhead0331, April 08, 2020, 04:02:19 PM

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W8taminute

One of the most realistic, if not easily understood, supply mechanics in any recent pc game.
"You and I are of a kind. In a different reality, I could have called you friend."

Romulan Commander to Kirk

FarAway Sooner

Yeah.  The supply mechanics were as brilliantly done as they were non-intuitive.  I love having to think about logistics in terms of the overall game (e.g., resources coming to my factories and supplies going out to my troops all have to use the same road system).  It makes for a really immersive gaming experience, and a satisfying mini-game.

The complexity of the system--and the need to toggle between two or three different UI screens to master the logistics mini-game--was my biggest obstacle to enjoying the game.  I cracked that nut, but it was a labor of love and not enjoyment!

solops

There is a new beta patch over in the Matrix forums. It makes some adjustments to rail costs and effectiveness, among other things. Among some of the other newer threads are some addressing supply, which I found helpful.
"I could have conquered Europe, all of it, but I had women in my life." - King Henry II of England
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly. - Winston Churchill
Wine is sure proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. - Benjamin Franklin

Sparhawk

I've been thinking recently about supply, well I've thought about supply the whole time I've played. Yet, recently, maybe after enough hours and mistakes I've come to an appreciation of the logistics system in that I approach it as the overarching center of my strategic decisions. Being so central to my choices it becomes my first and last focus and I have learned to let it go, accept the limitations, and not try to min/max. I've found that I can appreciate the diplomatic and economic game even more. How well I can move troops and material informs me on how I can treat my neighbors for instance. I create an efficient road network using traffic signs to allocate points effectively. If I have the luxury of peace and time I hold off rail stations until I have HS rail tech then build rail between every town and city. In faster paced games I will build regular rail stations then augment with HS rail later. I build a station in every city even knowing that this dilutes my AP. I feel this models real life in many ways, all production hubs have rail. I play with the operational logistics range overlay on and current logistic points overlay open to keep a constant eye on this information. Early on I keep an eye on bottlenecks but as the game progresses I pretty much know where I'm creating bottlenecks. Well I didn't intend this to be a logistics overview in detail. Mostly my impression on how logistics doesn't have to be a headache if approached in an interactive way rather than something that holds us back and is to be conquered.

W8taminute

^Really good information there. 

I agree with not putting too much effort into min/maxing the supply lines but rather keep an overall view of the situation. 
"You and I are of a kind. In a different reality, I could have called you friend."

Romulan Commander to Kirk

solops

In areas where I need troop mobility but supply is not a problem I build roads and then disconnect them at the ends. This gives me most of the movement bonus for moving troops but avoids the supply penalty for too many branching roads. Of course the isolated road segment has no supply on it, but it is great for troop mobility.
"I could have conquered Europe, all of it, but I had women in my life." - King Henry II of England
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly. - Winston Churchill
Wine is sure proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. - Benjamin Franklin

FarAway Sooner

Solops, you can do something very similar (or identical) with traffic signs, but I think the functionality for that is rooted 2 or 3 sub-menus down.  I do enjoy the challenge of designing a system where my subordinates have to take care of things themselves (the "God games" were great back in the day but I've found that the min/maxing paradigm has gotten pretty stale for me) is really rewarding.

The other piece I've struggled with the most is the characters system.  I LOVE the design principles, but I think Vic just took it one layer too far down the rabbit hole for my tastes. 

I also think the downward spiral from having unhappy leaders needs to be nerfed.  Those 3-choice decisions invariably set me back 10-20 turns, to the point where you can't EVER afford to have unhappy subordinates.  That is about the only aspect of the game that shatters immersion for me.  Mostly it just results in save-spamming so that I have to go back 5 turns before that leader was really unhappy to figure out what went wrong and how to get him happy.

It is a wonderful game.  Those two complaints are just the only two scratches on a game that is otherwise a perfect 4x symphony for me.

W8taminute

Quote from: FarAway Sooner on February 11, 2022, 12:35:50 PM
...

I also think the downward spiral from having unhappy leaders needs to be nerfed.  Those 3-choice decisions invariably set me back 10-20 turns, to the point where you can't EVER afford to have unhappy subordinates.  That is about the only aspect of the game that shatters immersion for me.  Mostly it just results in save-spamming so that I have to go back 5 turns before that leader was really unhappy to figure out what went wrong and how to get him happy.

...

My sentiments exactly.  That is really the only reason why I can't seem to motivate myself to go back to playing this otherwise great game.  I wish there was a way, such as modding an .ini file or something, to turn off leader unhappiness. 

Never really cared for the ideology or political management aspects of this game.
"You and I are of a kind. In a different reality, I could have called you friend."

Romulan Commander to Kirk

Sparhawk

I've found that by the time I'm in the rhythm of a particular game the leader choices I've made have all settled out with my ideology choices and playing stratagems such as "Cabinet Retreat" helps keep their relation scores high. Of course there's the occasional leader in reserve who I can't seem to retire who's relationship score tanks and rebels. Such is life in Shadow Empires. It really sucks passing up on the really capable leader that has opposing ideology, but the surest way to create headaches  is to put them in charge of something. It's all about keeping enough points going toward your interior minister that you have ample stratagems to use for recruiting,    training, pleasing, and retiring. It's such a big part of the game. Low relation scores have such an impact on effectiveness as we've all experienced. I love this game.

solops

#339
I run my empire entirely on loyalty. It simplifies the personnel side of things, which I do not care for. Bonuses, retirements and the occasional assassination. Once my gov gets big enough, I spam cabinet meetings and war games, which keep my guys competent enough and loyal enough. I rarely get revolts, but I know when one is coming and they are quickly crushed in a training exercise. I don't worry about optimising government. A few extra loyal troops balances out things just fine. Power, barrel of a gun, etc.
"I could have conquered Europe, all of it, but I had women in my life." - King Henry II of England
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly. - Winston Churchill
Wine is sure proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. - Benjamin Franklin

W8taminute

Well you two do seem to have some great ways of dealing with leader loyalty and happiness.  Kind of does make me want to try some of this stuff out for myself. 
"You and I are of a kind. In a different reality, I could have called you friend."

Romulan Commander to Kirk

Father Ted

Quote from: solops on February 11, 2022, 09:21:13 PM
I run my empire entirely on loyalty. It simplifies the personnel side of things, which I do not care for. Bonuses, retirements and the occasional assassination. Once my gov gets big enough, I spam cabinet meetings and war games, which keep my guys competent enough and loyal enough. I rarely get revolts, but I know when one is coming and they are quickly crushed in a training exercise. I don't worry about optimising government. A few extra loyal troops balances out things just fine. Power, barrel of a gun, etc.

solops = Tony Soprano?

al_infierno

I like to think his opening theme would be like this but with the pupper in the xmas hat driving a Mad Max esque presidential limo made of welded together junkyard parts.

A War of a Madman's Making - a text-based war planning and political survival RPG

It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge.  War endures.  As well ask men what they think of stone.  War was always here.  Before man was, war waited for him.  The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner.  That is the way it was and will be.  That way and not some other way.
- Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian


If they made nothing but WWII games, I'd be perfectly content.  Hypothetical matchups from alternate history 1980s, asymmetrical US-bashes-some-3rd world guerillas, or minor wars between Upper Bumblescum and outer Kaboomistan hold no appeal for me.
- Silent Disapproval Robot


I guess it's sort of nice that the word "tactical" seems to refer to some kind of seriousness during your moments of mental clarity.
- MengJiao

solops

New beta patch!!!...1.10.06, focus on AI.
Re. Tony Soprano. Hmmm...I never thought of it that way, but yeah! That style works for me.
"I could have conquered Europe, all of it, but I had women in my life." - King Henry II of England
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly. - Winston Churchill
Wine is sure proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. - Benjamin Franklin

Boggit

Quote from: FarAway Sooner on February 11, 2022, 12:35:50 PM
Solops, you can do something very similar (or identical) with traffic signs, but I think the functionality for that is rooted 2 or 3 sub-menus down.  I do enjoy the challenge of designing a system where my subordinates have to take care of things themselves (the "God games" were great back in the day but I've found that the min/maxing paradigm has gotten pretty stale for me) is really rewarding.

The other piece I've struggled with the most is the characters system.  I LOVE the design principles, but I think Vic just took it one layer too far down the rabbit hole for my tastes. 

I also think the downward spiral from having unhappy leaders needs to be nerfed.  Those 3-choice decisions invariably set me back 10-20 turns, to the point where you can't EVER afford to have unhappy subordinates.  That is about the only aspect of the game that shatters immersion for me.  Mostly it just results in save-spamming so that I have to go back 5 turns before that leader was really unhappy to figure out what went wrong and how to get him happy.

It is a wonderful game.  Those two complaints are just the only two scratches on a game that is otherwise a perfect 4x symphony for me.
You could always email Vic on the downsides. He is always interested in feedback, and I know from my interview with him that he is still doing work on the game when he gets time.
The most shocking fact about war is that its victims and its instruments are individual human beings, and that these individual beings are condemned by the monstrous conventions of politics to murder or be murdered in quarrels not their own. Aldous Huxley

Foul Temptress! (Mirth replying to Gus) ;)

On a good day, our legislature has the prestige of a drunk urinating on a wall at 4am and getting most of it on his shoe. On a good day  ::) Steelgrave

It's kind of silly to investigate whether or not a Clinton is lying. That's sort of like investigating why the sky is blue. Banzai_Cat