Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread

Started by JasonPratt, September 17, 2018, 05:04:17 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

malize

Aurelius will instruct his trusted Servus Corporis, Gneapor, to take steps to collect the Mining Concession the dominus has recently acquired...

Erax

Hello everyone, I've sent JP a message and hope to be joining the game soon. I'm currently waiting to be assigned a faction.

JasonPratt

Welcome, Thraw--I MEAN "ERAX".  ^-^

Do you have any preferences among the remaining three? -- Expansionists, Progressives, or Neutralists?

Nominally the next one will be the Expansionists, but I give everyone a chance to declare preferences for or against.  O:-)

I'll slot you in after the mortality draw this afternoon (it'll be 8+ hours from now), so as not to risk handicapping your Faction too much out of the gate compared to other Players already developing their memberships. (Same for Malize, I'll exempt the Populist senators for your first turn.)

Quote from: malize on October 02, 2018, 09:51:10 PM
Aurelius will instruct his trusted Servus Corporis, Gneapor, to take steps to collect the Mining Concession the dominus has recently acquired...

O0 I'll update that this afternoon, too. It will come in handy very soon when we reach the Revenue Phase this afternoon/tonight!
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

JasonPratt

Here's a quick link to the description of the remaining Factions. They're tricky to play! http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=22819.msg629033#msg629033
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

Erax

I think the Expansionists are tricky, I'll leave them for a more experienced player. Can I take the Progressives?

Our motto will be 'FUTURUM SUMUS'.

JasonPratt

Quote from: Erax on October 03, 2018, 08:13:44 AM
I think the Expansionists are tricky, I'll leave them for a more experienced player. Can I take the Progressives?

Our motto will be 'FUTURUM SUMUS'.

Will do!

...so begins the Troll Rain.  >:D
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

ArizonaTank

I will play Statesman Spurious Cassius Vicellinus
Johannes "Honus" Wagner
"The Flying Dutchman"
Shortstop: Pittsburgh Pirates 1900-1917
Rated as the 2nd most valuable player of all time by Bill James.

Erax

Oh, I'll be a nice troll. For now.

In fact, I'd like to propose a Public Agreement that'll help us and Rome in this early stage: every turn, every faction transfers two Talents to one faction (starting with the Aristocrats and moving down the player order) and once they get this income they must use it to donate 10 talents to Rome with their LEAST popular senator, which they can pick if there's a tie. The Agreement lasts until everyone in it has had a turn (any late-arriving factions or factions that don't want to participate will be left out) and then we decide if we go for another round.

What do my esteemed colleagues think?

JasonPratt

As umpire I regard this as legal, btw. Note that he isn't actually making a "Proposal" for a vote, which he can't do (he doesn't even have senators yet, much less the HRAO, nor any Tribunes, which haven't even unlocked functionality yet.)

He's actually wanting players to sign up for a public contract, which would be enforceable (if there are any stated downsides to non-fulfillment), and which could be dropped out of if there's an accidental non-fulfillment.

The goal of his proposal (for want of a better term ;) ) is to encourage Players to have their senators donate cash to the Republic's Treasury. Right now cash is so thin that it's very hard for a senator who does so to gain any Influence from doing so, which reduces motivation for Players to donate.

On Erax's plan, everyone would be contractually obligated to donate 2 Talents (from Faction cash of course) per Turn to a designated Faction, until that Faction had accrued 10 Talents in a special side pocket (so to speak) reserved purely for this purpose per contract, and then at the next available Revenue Phase the Faction transfers those 10 Talents to the least Influential senator (or player's choice if there's a tie) for that Faction, specifically to be used as donation from that senator's personal Treasury to the Republic's Treasury, which would then earn that senator 1 Influence point.

Once the current target Faction has received the 10 Talents (at least Delayed if not actual yet), the next Faction clockwise becomes the target. And so on for one full sequence around the table, however many Turns that takes.

Cash donations can now happen from Faction to Faction at any time, although they won't arrive until the Revenue Phase. But presumably this contract would only start to apply at the start of Turn Two. The Revenue Phase would be the safest time to make such donations to the current target Faction, and they would arrive immediately; but due to the HRAO-based sequence, the target Player might end up receiving his cash too late to donate to the Republic on that Turn. The cash would be held by that Player to the side (which I would enforce with a special counter, let's say), until the next Revenue Phase allows him to distribute and play it from his selected senator.

This could be very doable. I could track whether Players have donated yet on a particular Turn or not, by putting -2 on the counter which would eventually be used to track their incoming donations. If it's still negative when it comes a Faction's Turn to be the donation Target, then the next Faction around the table with a zeroed tracker (being caught up on donations) gets to be the Target for receiving.

This would be a good disciplinary cooperative practice for helping the Republic survive in early days; it would help more recent senators farm a little influence along the way; and it wouldn't be hard for me to implement and track.

I think every Player would have to sign the contract, for it to be properly implemented, though. And someone needs to create a proper wording for the contract in its details for how it works.
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

Ethel the Frog

I think it is an interesting proposal and I am glad you suggested it. 

It is, effectively, a taxation system.  I am not familiar enough with the game to be comfortable with such a system personally and my inclination would be to table it until we have played a few rounds. I am partially self-motivated since, as I understand it, the less fiscally responsibile the nation is, the more you need me to lead it.  ;) 

However, this is is a democracy and I would like to hear other's opinions on this.  So, I request that each of you weigh in as to your opinion.  Let's try to get our debate on the subject resolved in 24 hours-I will extend to 48 hours if people say they want/need more time.  But, if we don't have clear interest in it in the short run, I think we can safely table it for this turn and keep it on the potential agenda for next. 


Erax

THE 'TALENTS to SUPPORT ROME' (TSR) AGREEMENT:

1. All Signing Factions, starting on the Mortality Phase of the turn this agreement is signed (or on the Mortality Phase of the next turn, if the turn in which the agreement is signed is already past the Mortality Phase) agree to:

2. Donate two talents per turn to a designated Signing Faction, starting by all Signing Factions donating to the Signing Faction with the lowest Player Number and following by order of Player Number according to the following conditions.

3. Signing Factions set to receive donations on a given turn (Receiving Factions) will also donate to themselves.

4. Donated money will be held in the Receiving Faction's Treasury in a separate fund (the TSR Fund) that may only be spent or transferred as follows.

5. At any time that the TSR Fund is equal to or greater than 10 talents, the Receiving Faction will transfer 10 talents to its Senator with the least amount of Popularity. It may choose between Senators if there is a tie for least popularity. The Receiving Faction will then donate any talents remaining in the TSR Fund to the Signing Faction with the lowest Player Number that is higher than its own, and that other faction becomes the Receiving Faction.

6. When a faction transfers 10 talents to one of its Senators, that Senator must donate those 10 talents to Rome as soon as the turn order allows.

7. The TSR Agreement ends when the Signing Faction with the highest Player Number has transferred 10 talents to one of its Senators. At that time, the Signing Factions may decide whether to continue, modify or terminate the Agreement, and (if it continues) whether to include new factions or drop out of the Agreement.

8. If the Agreement continues, the Signing Faction with the lowest Player Number that does not drop out of the Agreement becomes the Receiving Faction and the faction that currently holds the TSR Fund must transfer that Fund to the new Receiving Faction as soon as possible.

9. If the Agreement is terminated, any remaining talents in the TSR Fund will be returned to the Signing Factions as evenly as possible, with dice rolls resolving any  disparities in distribution.

10.  Factions that drop out of the Agreement forfeit any talents in the TSR Fund and (if they currently hold it) must transfer it to the new Receiving Faction.

Note that this is an agreement, not a law. A faction can choose not to be in it but it can't 'vote' against it.

Erax

Let me add 6a: In the unlikely event that a Senator dies before he can donate his 10 talents and those talents are lost, that Senator's faction receives a 'sorry for your loss' contribution from the TSR Fund equal to two talents, as soon as the turn order allows.

(I don't know if personal money is lost when a Senator dies. The Living Rules say 'remove all markers' but I'm not sure if money counts as markers or if the fortune 'stays in the family'. If the money is not lost, then we can leave 6a out of the Agreement).

JasonPratt

Quote from: Erax on October 03, 2018, 11:49:47 AM
(I don't know if personal money is lost when a Senator dies. The Living Rules say 'remove all markers' but I'm not sure if money counts as markers or if the fortune 'stays in the family'. If the money is not lost, then we can leave 6a out of the Agreement).

Yes, personal money is normally lost when a senator dies, like any other chits or counters on him. There are two exceptions I can think of offhand:

1.) When the Early Provincial Era starts, all Latin and Italian Statesmen already on the board will retire, and be discarded out of the game as if they had died. However, if their family is politically active by then (and thus collected under the Statesman), the family Senator will inherit all the counters. This is a rule instigated by the fan who designed the "Birth of the Republic" prologue expansion back in the days of the original Avalon Hill game, and it hasn't ever been incorporated into the Living Rules.

(There's a bit of confusion in his rules about this, however, since it seems like Cincinnatus will allow Flaminius to inherit, even though that isn't his family.)

2.) In the Faction rules I ginned up for the Conservatives, one of their special abilities is that their Statesmen always "retire" if their family Senator is already active in the game (and thus collected under them), allowing those Senators to inherit.
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

JasonPratt

On the proposed rule 6 (and 6a revision) of the public contract: potential problems here can be avoided if a Player simply cannot transfer cash out of his Faction's TSR counter until the Revenue Phase, at which time during their rounds the Players are allowed to redistribute cash between their senators and their Faction Treasury as they see fit. (For practical equivalency, I simply pre-collect all cash in the Faction along with generated income, into the Player's Faction Treasury during the first segment of that Phase, from which they can distribute back out as they wish.)

At the time when they can distribute Faction cash back out, their TSR counter's cash would be released for distribution, too, according to their instructions to me, whereupon I'd make sure those 10 Talents got spend out of the senator's Treasury as a donation to the Republic with the consequential Influence pip. (Plus any other donations they instructed me to transfer of course.) It's impossible for a senator to die during the Revenue Phase; and if the donations don't transfer to the senator until then, it wouldn't matter if every senator died -- the cash would still be safe in a Treasury pocket (on a special counter dedicated for this purpose) on the Faction's sideboard.

(If a player is aggressive enough to try assassinating someone with their final senator, and he gets caught and dies in the attempt, all his cash is going to be forfeit to the bank one way or another, even if the other Players vote for clemency to allow the misbehaving Player to remain in the game -- since the threat of losing the game individually discourages people from trying to trim other Players down to one senator, too, by spamming assassination attempts with their otherwise semi-immortal Faction Leader. But in that ultra-rare case, I'd simply transfer that Player's TSR cash to the next available receiver and spread it out downstream that way.)

It shouldn't be necessary for the Player to move excess out of his TSR counter to the next Faction in line at this time (or ever): when a Player tells me they're making their TSR donation for this Turn, then I would move it out of their Faction cash into the current Receiver, and whenever that reaches 10 then I'd start transferring any excess cash to the next valid Receiver around the table.
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

Erax

So we can drop 6a and interpret rule 6 to mean that a faction will transfer to its Senator in the Revenue Phase and then (in the same Revenue Phase) donate to Rome. Therefore the TSR money can never be lost before it's donated.

By your interpretation of rule 5, there won't be any transfer from faction to faction, if the fund is at 8 talents (for example) and there's 4 factions in the Agreement, contributing 8 talents, you'll give 2 of those talents to the current faction to make 10 (which they'll transfer to their Senator + donate as soon as they can) and then you'll give the remaining 6 talents to the next faction in order. Did I get it right?