Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread

Started by JasonPratt, September 17, 2018, 05:04:17 PM

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JasonPratt

Meanwhile, the usual Revolution Phase things also go on. Specifically, if anyone wants to trade or donate cards, you can do so with instant arrival at this time.

More specifically, anyone who has a Concession, or a valid Statesman to play, can play any or all of them now. I have sent p-mails to various players for various reasons.  ^-^ If you didn't get one, never mind, maybe next time.
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Tripoli

Despite having 13 legions under my command, I return to my humble farm after crushing Rome's enemies. Quick question. I'm really not interested in having a legion be loyal to me. If we are doing house rules, possibly on that allows a commander to forgo a loyal legion in exchange for influence may be worth considering
"Do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends?" -Abraham Lincoln

JasonPratt

#872
Quote from: Tripoli on December 20, 2018, 11:00:17 PM
Despite having 13 legions under my command, I return to my humble farm after crushing Rome's enemies. Quick question. I'm really not interested in having a legion be loyal to me. If we are doing house rules, possibly on that allows a commander to forgo a loyal legion in exchange for influence may be worth considering

There is a rule for this, but it requires sacrificing the Legion's veterancy. Next Turn, during your Forum Round, you can retire the Legion for a small boost in... I forget what, Oratory and Pop maybe. (Edited to specify: +1 each Inf and Ora.) The Legion can be called up again but only under certain conditions, and they lose their vet status. (Edited to specify: Disbanded Vets lose their Vet Status if the senator holding their allegiance chit dies. Otherwise they retain it, and will return as Vets. This balances them still being experienced vs. growing old and dying themselves, to be replaced by the normal logistic pool recruits.)

On the other hand, having some Vets loyal to you can make the difference in someone else's rebellion failing, since you can thereby ensure those Vets stay loyal to the Republic!

If other Players are suspicious about it, well, that's part of the game. ;) But you can get around that by making a Public Contract forbidding any or all of your current senators, or forbidding your whole Faction permanently, from ever rebelling against Rome.
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

Erax

The Senate can also remove a disbanded legion's allegiance by raising it (there is one condition, all other non-disbanded legions must have been raised already). It's not clear that the associated Senator loses their Inf/Ora bonus in this case, but since they must surrender their allegiance marker and I believe the marker confers the bonus, it seems to me that's how it goes.

Disbandment happens at the start of the Revolution Phase, before a commander rebels or returns to Rome (though I suggest we let Julius do this out of sequence this turn).

JasonPratt

Yes, if the Senate votes to Recall any Disbanded Veterans, then any senators they're loyal too will lose the allegiance chit, thus also lose the Inf/Ora bonus for having Disbanded them.

The same is true if a Consul (either one) or a Dictator Recalls a Disbanded Veteran, which any of them can do at will without needing a Senatorial vote. Also, unlike the Senate, a Consul or Dictator's Recall doesn't require all normal Legions to be Raised from the Force Pool first.

(The rules explicitly say the Vet's chit goes to the Bank when Disbanded, which for TTS would mean going into the Legion Bag, where the sorting code would flip them to their first side. But for all practical purposes, Disbanded Veteran Legions go to the Force Pool anyway, so that's where I would send them. The rules are clear enough about when they can and cannot be Recalled, so being in the Force Pool shouldn't be confusing. I've been intending to clarify this in the Sabrerules but haven't gotten around to it: the Disbanded Vets might as well be in the Force Pool.)


However! -- I'll have to dispute that Disbanding happens before their Commander chooses whether or not to rebel or stay loyal. I think the rules are quite clear that the Disbanding of Veteran Legions happens after the Revolution Phase, during the subsequent Forum round of the Commander they became Veteran under (thus who owns their allegiance chit). They don't have to have become Veteran that particular Turn -- they could have become Veteran 10 Turns ago -- but the senator they're loyal to must have just Commanded them Victoriously in a War.

From my summary of the Forum Phase rules:
Quote3.5.0) A Victorious, non-rebel Commander, who returned from War last turn, may Disband any Veteran Legions whose Allegiance chits he holds and which he commanded last turn.
3.5.1) Each such Legion's Allegiance chit flips to disbanded.
3.5.2) Each such Legion goes to the Bank (not the Force Pool), still flipped to show Veterancy. (These retired Veteran Legions may need to have a special place made on or near the board..)
3.5.3) The senator gains +1 Oratory and +1 Influence for each disbanded Legion.

(Point 2 obviously should be clarified that for simplicity's sake, the Disbanded Vet Legion goes to the Force Pool, only to be Raised again (or Recalled rather) under specific rules elsewhere.)

Julius, as our current example, or Tripoli rather playing Julius, decides first, during the Revolution Phase, whether to give the Legions, including his Veteran, back to the Republic or not. He chose not to rebel, and so to give back the Legions. They're in the Active Pool now, including the Veteran 1st Legion, and Julius has the I Legion's loyalty chit. Tripoli has the opportunity next Turn, during his Forum round, to Disband them if he wants, sending the Vet Legion to the Force Pool (in effect) and flipping his loyalty chit to show the Inf/Ora bonus.

Once he does that, only the Senate (by vote) or a Consul or Dictator (by direct command) can Raise them again. They will still be Vets if so, but Julius will lose their loyalty chit (and thus his Inf/Ora bonus).

If Julius dies while still holding their Disbanded chit, then that goes back to the bag (obviously) and in effect the Vet Legion in the Force Pool gets flipped to its normal side, become available to Raise normally again.

If Julius dies while holding the Loyalty chit (not yet Disbanded), then the Vet Legion stays Vet: it's still Active somewhere, and not in the Force Pool. But naturally the dead Julius can't call upon them any more, whether to rebel or to protect against rebellion. Nor can the new Julius when-if-ever the family returns to political action.

(The exception there would be AzTank's Conservative Faction: if he has a Statesman whose family is already politically active, thus under the Statesman, then per his Faction's special ability the family Senator inherits all chits if the Statesman dies. That includes the Loyalty / Disbanded status chit.)
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

JasonPratt

#875
Meanwhile! -- welcome two new Statesmen into the fraternity of senators! Or one new Statesman and one grumpy old Statesman!  >:D

Specifically, Malize plays to his Populist mat: Marcus Portius Cato Seniorem!



Cato may suck at military command and (amazingly) at Influence (at least originally), but he's got a 10 Loyalty score and brings 6 votes through his Oratory! Populist vote tally goes up to 20 (which I think is the new high watermark for normal votes?) and total Influence to 12.

This is the first true Early Era Statesman we've seen, and he's showcasing a few special abilities not yet seen either. First, he's one of those Statesmen who are also a Tribune (or he has permanent access to one perhaps -- I don't recall the historical Cato being a Tribune himself). That means Malize can always throw at least one Tribune effect each Senate Phase! I'll have to create a little marker to track this (and for a few other similar Statesmen along the way), probably a little Early Tribune card  I can 'tap out' when used to show it needs recharging.

Second, he can muster another 6 Votes, pro or con, on Law Proposals. We haven't seen any Laws yet in the game, but they're coming. (If you're wondering why this is printed in blue, that's because Law Votes are an advanced rule, which yes we'll be using.) I'll talk about Laws when the time comes. All you-all need to know right now, is that they are special Scenario cards drawn while going through the Era Decks.

Third, Cato is our first example of a Statesman with a provisional Loyalty. Normally it's 10, but if he's ever in the same Faction as one of the Flaminian or Scipian Statesmen (not simply their families), then he cannot stand working with them, so his Loyalty goes to zero. That doesn't mean he immediately abandons his Faction, but it does mean his Loyalty won't count against Persuasion attempts!


The last thing to note is that his family #22 isn't politically active yet, so if he's still alive when his family card shows up, then Malize will get the card.
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

JasonPratt

Erax correctly points out that the current (April 2018) Living Rules do state that the opportunity to Disband Vet Legions happens during the Revolution Phase, not (as I somehow thought!) during the subsequent Forum Phase.

I didn't intend that as a house rule improvement -- I really thought the Living Rules went with the Forum Phase for this -- so I have corrected the Sabrerules flowsheet accordingly over in the information thread, along with some other clarifications I had been planning anyway.
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

JasonPratt

#877
Moving along then to our second new Statesman...



AzTank plays Lucius Aemilius Paullus Macedonicus to the Conservative Faction!

This powerhouse brings the Conservative Normal Vote Tally up to 13, and their Total Influence up to 19.

He's also familiar with Macedonian terrain, so he can void D/S results when fighting any Macedonian War!

However, notice a big distinction between the new Statesmen and the pre-Earlies here: the new Statesmen cannot void Enemy Leader D/S results. I expect the difference comes from the pre-Early expansion having been designed for the Avalon Hill rules, and these Statesmen belonging to the heavily revised and updated Valley Hill rules.

Family #19 should be showing up soon, but isn't active yet, so when their family card shows up AzTank will be able to claim it if PaulMac is still alive.
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

JasonPratt

This effectively ends the Revolution Phase. As usual I'll allow some retroactive card trading to automatically happen for a reasonable time; and also (since I was wrong about the timing for Disbandment) whether Tripoli chooses to sacrifice Rome's first Veteran Legion for his own political advancement. ;)

TURN NINE -- MORTALITY PHASE
----------------------------

The earliest Immanent War of each Type goes Active now: specifically the 2nd Samnite War. It has no Enemy Leader.



The 3rd (and final) Samnite War remains Immanent for now.

As you may notice, the 2nd Samnite War is a little more likely to cause D/S problems, especially Disasters (12.5% chance) -- but once beaten, the Republic permanently benefits from a massive increase in yearly income and logistic capabilities.



Shuffling the Sack of Death pulls a blank, no effect.

ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

JasonPratt

TURN NINE -- REVENUE PHASE
--------------------------

I'm going to test a house rule going forward, that minor priesthoods each generate 1 Talent of income. Currently there isn't much ongoing reason to care about being a priest, and it's odd that the PontMax can earn up to 6 Talents each Turn while the minor priests get nothing. If Players generally hate this change, don't worry, I can change it back.

First Revenue segment, Faction Incomes!

I.I.'s Aristocrats have 9 starting cash; +25 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator income; +7 knight income; +2+2 Tax Farming; +3 Harbor Fees; +1 minor priest
= new Faction total 54 Talents!



Tripoli's Militarists have 4 starting cash; +16 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator income; +7 knight income; +2+2 Tax Farming
= new Faction total 36 Talents.



The Frog's Plutocrats have 4 starting cash; +9 personal cash; 5+1+1 senator (Plutocrat bonus) income; +7+7 (Plutocrat bonus) knight income; +1 priest income; 1d6 = +1 PontMax income
= new Faction total 36 Talents.



AzTank's Conservatives have 36 starting cash; +2 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator income; +4 knight income; +2 priests income
= new Faction total 49 Talents!



Malize's Populists have 3 starting cash; 0 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator income; +3 knight income; +3 Mining Concession
= new Faction total 14 Talents.



Erax's Progressives have 0 starting cash; +16 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator income; +3 knight income; +2+2 Tax Farming
= new Faction Total 28 Talents.


Rome currently has 166 Talents, with a new normal income of 60 Talents, and with standing expenses of -2x13 units and -10 for an Active War.



2nd Income Segment now starts: Faction distributions and possibly donations, whether to each other or -- for an Inf boost -- to the Republic. (1 Inf for 10 Talents; 3 for 25; 7 for 50.)

Players should also plan ahead for which senator will try to persuade a knight (and how much personal cash to sacrifice); and some Players may wish to consider shifting their Faction Leader.

Moreover, Sponsoring Games remains available for one senator per Faction, and there's still an uncommitted family Senator hanging around in the Forum to be Persuaded...



...although his smug 28 Talents will make that super hard! Keep in mind that a senator can only spend personal cash bribing a senator for Persuasion, while other Factions counter-bribe with Faction cash. (Which is how Sulpy there got so rich as to be practically independent from Factional influence. ;) )
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

malize

7 to junius for games (bonus to Cato)
5 to Cato for knight

Faction leader to Cato

Ethel the Frog

9 per senator, the rest in faction. 

IncompetentIdiot

All three of my senators will make a donation of 10 talents (bonus influence to Cornelius). Of the remainder, 15 to Cornelius, 5 to Quinctius.

JasonPratt

Quote from: IncompetentIdiot on December 21, 2018, 07:04:59 PM
All three of my senators will make a donation of 10 talents (bonus influence to Cornelius). Of the remainder, 15 to Cornelius, 5 to Quinctius.

This is a genius way to exploit his Faction's special ability, by the way; and yes, I've double checked, it's entirely legal for multiple senators to donate to the Republic per Turn. Some other things, like Sponsoring Games or Persuading a knight or Persuading a senator, can only be done once per Turn (though all of those could be done by the same senator). But everyone can donate.

Having said that, Corny can't take all three Aristocratic bonus farmed influence, because he himself is generating one of those bonus points. He can take two points (from the other two guys), but his bonus point has to go to one of them.
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

Erax

I thought I started with 12 cash, +12 income = 24? If so, 15 Flaminius, 3 to each of the others, 3 in FT.

If it is 28, then 16 to Flaminius, 4 to each of the others and 4 in FT.