GrogHeads Forum

Digital Gaming => Computer Gaming => Topic started by: Emir Agic on December 08, 2019, 03:42:49 PM

Title: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Emir Agic on December 08, 2019, 03:42:49 PM
Very unusual simulation on horizon...

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1198970/I_Am_Jesus_ "

I am Jesus Christ" is a realistic simulator game inspired by stories from the New Testament of the Bible. Get into old times and follow the same path of Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago.

Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: al_infierno on December 08, 2019, 03:58:18 PM
I can't tell if this is meant to be tongue-in-cheek but it's fuggin hilarious either way!
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Huw the Poo on December 08, 2019, 04:42:29 PM
Hahaha!

In the key features: "realistic fight with Satan".  Yeah I hope they get that right instead of just making stuff up....
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: SirAndrewD on December 08, 2019, 04:54:35 PM
Same company (even though they're releasing under a different dev name) is doing this one.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/950620/Priest_Simulator/

Jim Sterling did a video on both games.  I agree, this one looks a lot better.
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Staggerwing on December 08, 2019, 05:25:08 PM
Quote from: Huw the Poo on December 08, 2019, 04:42:29 PM
Hahaha!

In the key features: "realistic fight with Satan".  Yeah I hope they get that right instead of just making stuff up....

Hopefully you can score a BFG before you get to the Satan boss fight.
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Barthheart on December 08, 2019, 06:27:31 PM
Quote from: Staggerwing on December 08, 2019, 05:25:08 PM
Quote from: Huw the Poo on December 08, 2019, 04:42:29 PM
Hahaha!

In the key features: "realistic fight with Satan".  Yeah I hope they get that right instead of just making stuff up....

Hopefully you can score a BFG before you get to the Satan boss fight.

BFG = big f'n grail?
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Con on December 08, 2019, 07:02:47 PM
HHA the holy handgrenade of Antioch
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: al_infierno on December 08, 2019, 07:40:13 PM
HFHG!
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Gusington on December 08, 2019, 08:35:27 PM
Water to wine sim? Water walking buffs? Carpentry puzzles?
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Tripoli on December 08, 2019, 10:12:46 PM
I'm having trouble understanding what the purpose of the game is.  Full Disclosure: I'm coming at this from my perspective as a (reasonably) devout Christian.  If the developer is likewise a believing Christian, than I think he surely would see that this game, no matter how well intentioned, risks making Jesus look at the very least cartoonish and trite.  THis would severely restrict a lot of Christians from purchasing it.  If he is trying to mock Christianity, I'm not sure what his target audience is.  I have trouble seeing non-Christians buying  such a game.   
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Sir Slash on December 08, 2019, 11:27:54 PM
Not to ruin the mood but can you imagine the reaction to a, 'I Am Muhammad' sim?  :hide:  Seems a little insensitive to me.
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Tripoli on December 08, 2019, 11:34:14 PM
Quote from: Sir Slash on December 08, 2019, 11:27:54 PM
Not to ruin the mood but can you imagine the reaction to a, 'I Am Muhammad' sim?  :hide:  Seems a little insensitive to me.

Just read the accounts of the Charlie Hebdo attack. That should give a relatively good indication of the reaction
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Bardolph on December 09, 2019, 01:01:41 AM
If they follow this source material it should be pretty interesting:


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61cgzGbiT2L.jpg)
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000OVLK2W/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: MikeGER on December 09, 2019, 03:45:25 AM
Quote from: Sir Slash on December 08, 2019, 11:27:54 PM
Not to ruin the mood but can you imagine the reaction to a, 'I Am Muhammad' sim?  :hide:  Seems a little insensitive to me.

+1

i guess the Muhammad Sim would sell much better so, these dark days ::)
swordplay, raids on camel trains, warlord activities, romance with female boss a Milf widow to gain money and social security, drug abuse in a cave hippy-style, clan factions diplomacy, wars and betrayals, summed up 10 wifes  ...and very provocative pedo-activities in the late game, if developer dare to hint at that historic fact   
 
almost like game of thrones without dragons and magic, vampires or werwolfs
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Anguille on December 09, 2019, 04:07:21 AM
Interesting...
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Destraex on December 09, 2019, 04:46:05 AM
Quote from: MikeGER on December 09, 2019, 03:45:25 AM
Quote from: Sir Slash on December 08, 2019, 11:27:54 PM
Not to ruin the mood but can you imagine the reaction to a, 'I Am Muhammad' sim?  :hide:  Seems a little insensitive to me.

+1

i guess the Muhammad Sim would sell much better so, these dark days ::)
swordplay, raids on camel trains, warlord activities, romance with female boss a Milf widow to gain money and social security, drug abuse in a cave hippy-style, clan factions diplomacy, wars and betrayals, summed up 10 wifes  ...and very provocative pedo-activities in the late game, if developer dare to hint at that historic fact   
 
almost like game of thrones without dragons and magic, vampires or werwolfs

I thought the wife age thing was normal even in the west at the time, if that's what you mean?
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Sir Slash on December 09, 2019, 10:15:31 AM
Not to offend anyone anywhere but one of Muhammad's wives was 9 when he married her. Not betroved, but actual marriage as I've read it. A little too young even for ( fill in the blank for your favorite in-bred places).  :hug:  Or even Europe at the time. Some of the humor like on Family Guy for one, of Jesus is funny if done tastefully and not meant to offend or be, 'edgy'. My 2 cents.
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: RyanE on December 09, 2019, 10:26:12 AM
Good to see that grogheads is still as culturally sensitive as ever.  Sheesh.
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Tripoli on December 09, 2019, 10:59:32 AM
Quote from: Destraex on December 09, 2019, 04:46:05 AM
Quote from: MikeGER on December 09, 2019, 03:45:25 AM
Quote from: Sir Slash on December 08, 2019, 11:27:54 PM
Not to ruin the mood but can you imagine the reaction to a, 'I Am Muhammad' sim?  :hide:  Seems a little insensitive to me.

+1

i guess the Muhammad Sim would sell much better so, these dark days ::)
swordplay, raids on camel trains, warlord activities, romance with female boss a Milf widow to gain money and social security, drug abuse in a cave hippy-style, clan factions diplomacy, wars and betrayals, summed up 10 wifes  ...and very provocative pedo-activities in the late game, if developer dare to hint at that historic fact   
 
almost like game of thrones without dragons and magic, vampires or werwolfs

I thought the wife age thing was normal even in the west at the time, if that's what you mean?

In late Medieval Europe, the Church didn't recognize marriage before the age of 12. (http://www.themiddleages.net/life/marriage.html  ).  Most women were married at around 14-16 (cf. https://womenofhistory.blogspot.com/2007/08/medieval-marriage-childbirth.html).  Mohammad married Aisha when she was 7 and consummated the marriage when she was nine. (Bukhari, vol. 5, book 63, no. 3896; cf. Bukhari, vol. 7, book 67, no. 5158.  (quoting Aisha "The Messenger of God married me when I was seven; my marriage was consummated when I was nine.").
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Emir Agic on December 09, 2019, 12:55:12 PM
Quote
In late Medieval Europe, the Church didn't recognize marriage before the age of 12. (http://www.themiddleages.net/life/marriage.html  ).  Most women were married at around 14-16 (cf. https://womenofhistory.blogspot.com/2007/08/medieval-marriage-childbirth.html).  Mohammad married Aisha when she was 7 and consummated the marriage when she was nine. (Bukhari, vol. 5, book 63, no. 3896; cf. Bukhari, vol. 7, book 67, no. 5158.  (quoting Aisha "The Messenger of God married me when I was seven; my marriage was consummated when I was nine.").

"Because of this, it is impossible to know with any certainty how old Aisha was. What we do know is what the Qur'an says about marriage: that it is valid only between consenting adults, and that a woman has the right to choose her own spouse. As the living embodiment of Islam, Muhammad's actions reflect the Qur'an's teachings on marriage, even if the actions of some Muslim regimes and individuals do not."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: DoctorQuest on December 09, 2019, 01:29:57 PM
Quote from: RyanE on December 09, 2019, 10:26:12 AM
Good to see that grogheads is still as culturally sensitive as ever.  Sheesh.

And to take a topic and push it ever so close to the RPFW precipice.  :DD
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Gusington on December 09, 2019, 02:00:20 PM
Honestly I see nothing here yet that would push this into the R&P miasma.
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2019, 02:17:44 PM
Looping back to the topic from reading the linked article, I wait with amusement the criticism of these games as charged with x-ophobia. But I'm not holding my breath.

(...heh, Xphobia! Because the X is an abbreviation for Christ.)
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: al_infierno on December 09, 2019, 02:42:10 PM
Christianophobia?

Wait, no, that don't real because it's still okay to rag on Christians!
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: DoctorQuest on December 09, 2019, 02:42:42 PM
Quote from: Gusington on December 09, 2019, 02:00:20 PM
Honestly I see nothing here yet that would push this into the R&P miasma.

I trust your judgement.  :notworthy:
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Tpek on December 09, 2019, 03:37:05 PM
Am I the only one familiar with those old MDickie(or whatever) games that were about Jesus and Muhammad, The You Testament series?
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: SirAndrewD on December 09, 2019, 03:39:45 PM
Quote from: Sir Slash on December 08, 2019, 11:27:54 PM
Not to ruin the mood but can you imagine the reaction to a, 'I Am Muhammad' sim?

Quote from: Tpek on December 09, 2019, 03:37:05 PM
Am I the only one familiar with those old MDickie(or whatever) games that were about Jesus and Muhammad, The You Testament series?

Here you go....

Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Tripoli on December 09, 2019, 03:43:21 PM
Quote from: Emir Agic on December 09, 2019, 12:55:12 PM
Quote
In late Medieval Europe, the Church didn't recognize marriage before the age of 12. (http://www.themiddleages.net/life/marriage.html  ).  Most women were married at around 14-16 (cf. https://womenofhistory.blogspot.com/2007/08/medieval-marriage-childbirth.html).  Mohammad married Aisha when she was 7 and consummated the marriage when she was nine. (Bukhari, vol. 5, book 63, no. 3896; cf. Bukhari, vol. 7, book 67, no. 5158.  (quoting Aisha "The Messenger of God married me when I was seven; my marriage was consummated when I was nine.").

"Because of this, it is impossible to know with any certainty how old Aisha was. What we do know is what the Qur'an says about marriage: that it is valid only between consenting adults, and that a woman has the right to choose her own spouse. As the living embodiment of Islam, Muhammad's actions reflect the Qur'an's teachings on marriage, even if the actions of some Muslim regimes and individuals do not."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth

The Guardian statement you cite is a bit misleading when it says that marriage is between adults under Islamic law.
While that is technically true, the issue is what constitutes an adult under Islamic law?  There are four major Islamic Sunni legal schools:  Hanafi, Maliki, Shafii, Hanbali.  Additionally, there is the Jafari school that is used by twelver Shia.   Islamic law requires adulthood for marriage, and defines adulthood for females as being conclusively proven by the onset of menses.  Therefore, all of the schools allow for relatively young children to be married.  Shafii and Hanbali schools believe adulthood is further established by reaching the age of 15.  The Maliki and Hanafi believe it is conclusively established at age 17 for a female.  However, these are upper limits.  The onset of menses, at whatever the age, is the lower limitSee "Encyclopedia of Islamic Law, A compendium of the Major Schools"   (Adapted by Laleh Bakhtiar) Chicago: ABC International Group 1996, para 10.3.1.   See also Ahmad al-Misri, "The Reliance of the Traveler," Evanston: Sunna Books, 1991 at m8.2 "A guardian may not marry his prepubescent daughter to someone...."  Thus, the issue for determining a valid capacity for marriage isn't age: it is the onset of puberty. 

The Jafari school recognizes marriage at the age of nine for females, based on the example of Mohammad.   See "Encylcopedia of Islamic Law, A compendium of the Major Schools"   (Adapted by Laleh Bakhtiar) Chicago: ABC International Group 1996, para 10.3.1.  These schools teachings are all based on the deeds of Mohammad, who, (according to mainstream Islamic thinking) was the perfect example to follow.  His marriage to a very young Aisha is well established in multiple hadiths, including the following:



Therefore, as Mohammad set the the perfect example, it is not surprising that Islamic law allows marriage to young girls-the only requirement being that they have achieved menses, or an age between 9-18 (depending on the Islamic legal school).
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Huw the Poo on December 09, 2019, 04:13:00 PM
Quote from: Tripoli on December 09, 2019, 03:43:21 PM
The Guardian statement you cite is a bit misleading

Heh, that's the Guardian for you. :D
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Emir Agic on December 09, 2019, 04:21:49 PM
Quote
Therefore, as Mohammad set the the perfect example, it is not surprising that Islamic law allows marraige to young girls-the only requirement being that they have achieved menses, or an age between 9-18 (depending on the Islamic legal school).

Ok. Thank you for detailed explanation. Obviously, minimum age as requirement is not set in stone by islamic tradition but something which is up to every society to decide. Today, in almost all islamic countries minimum age requirement for marriage is way above 9.
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Sir Slash on December 09, 2019, 04:34:46 PM
Glad to hear that, as it should be.  :clap:
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: ArizonaTank on December 09, 2019, 05:07:15 PM
Quote from: Tripoli on December 08, 2019, 10:12:46 PM
I'm having trouble understanding what the purpose of the game is. ....

+1

For the faithful this "simulator" does take something very serious and turns it into something like a game; not in a good way. If I hit the wrong key combos does Jesus sink into the sea? Does not rise until the fifth day?

Plus, depictions of Jesus are always second or third person. I can't see someone who is religious wanting to "be" Jesus. Maybe they would enjoy a game with Jesus as a non player.... a Ben Hur simulator perhaps? Or maybe a game where Jesus is part of a larger idea...didn't AH once publish a game about St. Paul traveling around evangelizing?  That would be of interest possibly.

Real religion rarely makes for a good "game".  Although I must admit wanting to play a good Dante's Inferno RPG...actually, I think that has already been done on the PC.



Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: al_infierno on December 09, 2019, 05:24:35 PM
Quote from: ArizonaTank on December 09, 2019, 05:07:15 PM

Real religion rarely makes for a good "game".

Drat.  There go my plans for a hex-based WEGO turning-the-other-cheek-and-forgiving-your-opponent's-transgressions wargame.   :-\

I had all my OOBs done up and everything!
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Gusington on December 09, 2019, 05:52:24 PM
I would buy that. For less than 39.99.
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Father Ted on December 09, 2019, 06:18:49 PM
Espousing a religion is essentially attempting to exploit a person's ignorance about the nature of the world in order to manipulate them for your own gain.  And it is the great shame of modern society that people who push religion in that way cannot be contradicted.
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: SirAndrewD on December 09, 2019, 06:35:25 PM
Quote from: Father Ted on December 09, 2019, 06:18:49 PM
Espousing a religion is essentially attempting to exploit a person's ignorance about the nature of the world in order to manipulate them for your own gain.  And it is the great shame of modern society that people who push religion in that way cannot be contradicted.

That would be an ecumenical matter!
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Tripoli on December 09, 2019, 06:51:27 PM
Quote from: Father Ted on December 09, 2019, 06:18:49 PM
Espousing a religion is essentially attempting to exploit a person's ignorance about the nature of the world in order to manipulate them for your own gain.....

Your statement assumes the religion in question isn't True.  However, that is probably an issue best left for the "Religion, Politics, and Flame Wars" board. :)
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Sir Slash on December 09, 2019, 07:36:19 PM
Could be worse. There could be an, 'I Am Epstein' game.  :hide:
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Ubercat on December 09, 2019, 08:29:34 PM
Quote from: al_infierno on December 09, 2019, 02:42:10 PM
Christianophobia?

Wait, no, that don't real because it's still okay to rag on Christians!

+1.

And I say that as an atheist who was all about ragging on Christianity 14 years ago. They're easy targets, though, as the vast majority won't blow you up for the slightest criticism. If the left were honest about their motives, they'd rag on Islam just as much as Christianity.
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Moreb on December 09, 2019, 08:53:04 PM
Touchy subject no doubt. I'll just add that I want to play as God of the Old Testament so I could smite some people.

'I love the smell of smiting in the morning. Satan don't surf.'   -some hardass
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: DoctorQuest on December 09, 2019, 09:04:49 PM
Any religion is a dangerous tool in the wrong hands.
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: The_Admiral on December 09, 2019, 10:34:37 PM
Gotta say though, the current exchanges with the community are sort of gold if not scary already - and the dev is actually answering. Go have a look if you're into controversy, you bunch of sinners.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1198970/discussions/

I have the belief that considering PlayWay is a very well established Polish editor, there was no intent to actually offend people, as controversial as it might seem. But in all honesty, between you and me, if Jesus is/was anything like what has been described to us mere mortals over the centuries, I will venture the guess he has forgiven us already - and the game devs with us.
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Father Ted on December 12, 2019, 05:11:50 PM
Quote from: SirAndrewD on December 09, 2019, 06:35:25 PM
Quote from: Father Ted on December 09, 2019, 06:18:49 PM
Espousing a religion is essentially attempting to exploit a person's ignorance about the nature of the world in order to manipulate them for your own gain.  And it is the great shame of modern society that people who push religion in that way cannot be contradicted.

That would be an ecumenical matter!
I stepped out of character a bit there - as you say, probably more of a Dougal/Jack sentiment.
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Father Ted on December 12, 2019, 05:26:36 PM
Quote from: Tripoli on December 09, 2019, 06:51:27 PM
Quote from: Father Ted on December 09, 2019, 06:18:49 PM
Espousing a religion is essentially attempting to exploit a person's ignorance about the nature of the world in order to manipulate them for your own gain.....

Your statement assumes the religion in question isn't True.  However, that is probably an issue best left for the "Religion, Politics, and Flame Wars" board. :)

No religions are "true" or,  indeed, anything other than human constructs to erroneously explain the world and/or subjugate other humans.
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Tripoli on December 12, 2019, 06:27:00 PM
Quote from: Father Ted on December 12, 2019, 05:26:36 PM
Quote from: Tripoli on December 09, 2019, 06:51:27 PM
Quote from: Father Ted on December 09, 2019, 06:18:49 PM
Espousing a religion is essentially attempting to exploit a person's ignorance about the nature of the world in order to manipulate them for your own gain.....

Your statement assumes the religion in question isn't True.  However, that is probably an issue best left for the "Religion, Politics, and Flame Wars" board. :)

No religions are "true" or,  indeed, anything other than human constructs to erroneously explain the world and/or subjugate other humans.

I'd be interested to hear your evidence to support this proposition over in the "Religion, Politics, and Flame Wars" board.   :)
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: JasonPratt on December 12, 2019, 06:51:21 PM
Oh yeah, I'm all about that subjugation of other people, I do it all the time here. BOW, YIELD, KNEEL!  :coolsmiley:

...I wonder if that's in the simulation. Seems important.
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: SirAndrewD on December 12, 2019, 08:18:27 PM
DRINK!  GIRLS!
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: SirAndrewD on December 13, 2019, 01:29:24 AM
Quote from: Tripoli on December 12, 2019, 06:27:00 PM

I'd be interested to hear your evidence to support this proposition over in the "Religion, Politics, and Flame Wars" board.   :)

Are we doing this?  I'm on Team Father Ted.
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: JasonPratt on December 13, 2019, 08:45:16 AM
Quote from: Moreb on December 09, 2019, 08:53:04 PM
Touchy subject no doubt. I'll just add that I want to play as God of the Old Testament so I could smite some people.

Quite a number of games do that already; most notoriously the Dominions series which leans REAAAAALLLY HARD into the idea that a bunch of lesser lords and gods are trying to get themselves declared the Most High after the previous Most High retires/disappears/whatever. The lore of the in-game descriptions treats the previous Most High rather like the OT YHWH ADNY (without the better qualities that contributed to human social development down the ages).
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Tripoli on December 13, 2019, 08:55:06 AM
Quote from: SirAndrewD on December 13, 2019, 01:29:24 AM
Quote from: Tripoli on December 12, 2019, 06:27:00 PM

I'd be interested to hear your evidence to support this proposition over in the "Religion, Politics, and Flame Wars" board.   :)

Are we doing this?  I'm on Team Father Ted.

I stand ready to debate the issue over at the RP&F board.  I believe the proposition for debate is "No religions are "true" or,  indeed, anything other than human constructs to erroneously explain the world and/or subjugate other humans." or some variation of that
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: JasonPratt on December 13, 2019, 09:19:51 AM
To be fair, FTed was dialing it down a notch with that phrasing; previously he had said,"Espousing a religion is essentially attempting to exploit a person's ignorance about the nature of the world in order to manipulate them for your own gain." No exceptions allowed.

His new phrasing allows that not every religious belief necessarily involves religious believers espousing a religion to attempt to subjugate other humans aka to manipulate other humans for our own gain. We might only be erroneously explaining the world (per the "and/or").

Amusingly, the new phraseology also technically allows that that a religion could be a human construct that CORRECTLY explains the world (while still being not true!?!), but in that case the correct explanation(s) would only be for the purpose of subjugating other humans.  ::)

Maybe he has Soviet science in mind as a religion? I've seen it described that way before, when atheists want to dismiss examples of monstrously tyrannical atheistic regimes: sure they're correct about explanations (by and large, such as atheism being true -- or ahem maybe not true, nothing other than a human construct though correctly explaining the world), but they're still a religion because they're using correct explanations about the world to subjugate other humans.


But I doubt he was thinking that precisely; I expect he was just trying to be nicer and more fair.  O:-)  O0

(Being a picky logician however with a primary hobby in metaphysics, I did notice.  ^-^ )

As Tripoli says, though, it's really a discussion for RFP. Ted might be taking the time to work up a proper opening argument to kick it off; but if not, you could, SirAndy!

Alternately, if I get bored on my other projects, I could restart an RFP thread based on my longform philosophical argument that I posted here back in 2015 -- I update it every few years and I've been thinking of giving it another repolish next year anyway. http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=14114.msg366954#msg366954
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Father Ted on December 13, 2019, 05:05:21 PM
Sorry guys it's a bit of a hobby-horse of mine - shouldn't have brought it up on the on this bit of the forum.

@ Tripoli - I doubt there'd be much in the way of debate.  I've basically couched my view in those two statements.  But OK, I'll toddle down to RFP...

@Jason - I usually (as now) write these posts after a few drinks, so I'm not checking them for robust logic

@SirAndrewD - here's to kicking Bishop Brennan up the arse!

Sorry to whoever's thread this is.

Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: SirAndrewD on December 15, 2019, 01:06:21 AM
Quote from: Tripoli on December 13, 2019, 08:55:06 AM
I stand ready to debate the issue over at the RP&F board.  I believe the proposition for debate is "No religions are "true" or,  indeed, anything other than human constructs to erroneously explain the world and/or subjugate other humans." or some variation of that

I think it's best for all of us to just let it go and be amused at the dumb game. 

If something in R&P ever got formed to that effect, there's no point.  No one can prove a negative.  In any debate the burden of proof is on the positive, not negative. 

I can't prove there are no unicorns.  The burden of proof lies on the positive assertion that there are unicorns.  If there are. then that's the basis. 

If Father Ted says no Religions are True, it's not his burden of proof.  He can not prove a negative, if it is a negative, clearly there is no proof.  The burden of proof must be on the alternate, that "There is a true Religion" and then they must provide direct, unarguable proof that their point is true. 

So, no I don't think it should go further based on the proposed criteria, nor do I think it should proceed at all.   We all are all over the place on religion, or lack thereof. 

I don't think some dumb game about walking on water should draw out our disagreements.
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Father Ted on December 15, 2019, 06:07:06 PM
Quote from: SirAndrewD on December 15, 2019, 01:06:21 AM

If Father Ted says no Religions are True, it's not his burden of proof.  He can not prove a negative, if it is a negative, clearly there is no proof.  The burden of proof must be on the alternate, that "There is a true Religion" and then they must provide direct, unarguable proof that their point is true. 


Jeez (ahem)  I wish I'd thought of that  - cheers SirAndrewD (for the record no [and I mean no] sarcasm).
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Gusington on December 15, 2019, 06:14:09 PM
Very impressive keeping this out of R&P. Well done all!
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: JasonPratt on December 15, 2019, 07:04:02 PM
I agree a dumb game shouldn't draw us to fight against one another; but neither do I mind opportunities for friendly discussions (where possible) about our differences of belief.

Which seems to me to be the point to Tripoli inviting FTed to create a new RFP thread to discuss whether all religious belief is about "essentially attempting to exploit a person's ignorance about the nature of the world in order to manipulate them for your own gain" or in other words to "subjugate" them.

And maybe also about whether "no religions are true" along the way -- a much, much larger topic -- but I'm at least 50% sure Tripoli was aiming primarily at discussing those other, positive not negative, details. I know I was! ;)
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: JasonPratt on December 15, 2019, 07:20:54 PM
I don't mean Father Ted or anyone else has to make an RFP thread about that topic, btw. I'm only reminding that there were other details that we were offering to discuss elsewhere.
Title: Re: I am Jesus (simulation)
Post by: Tripoli on December 15, 2019, 08:56:58 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on December 15, 2019, 07:04:02 PM
I agree a dumb game shouldn't draw us to fight against one another; but neither do I mind opportunities for friendly discussions (where possible) about our differences of belief.

Which seems to me to be the point to Tripoli inviting FTed to create a new RFP thread to discuss whether all religious belief is about "essentially attempting to exploit a person's ignorance about the nature of the world in order to manipulate them for your own gain" or in other words to "subjugate" them.

And maybe also about whether "no religions are true" along the way -- a much, much larger topic -- but I'm at least 50% sure Tripoli was aiming primarily at discussing those other, positive not negative, details. I know I was! ;)

Yes, that was my objective