The 2015 Baseball Thread

[Bison]

I'd put Moose in before Saberhagen.  Brett was good, but only occasionally great.  One might argue that David Wells had a better overall career than Saberhagen.  What really sets Saberhagen apart from guys like Jamie Moyer or David Cone or Roy Oswalt or Mike Hampton?

I wouldn't have an issue with Wells, Cone, or Moyer getting some consideration.   Hampton no way.  He never did anything once he went to Colorado.  Saberhagen still produced for teams after being traded or signing for them.

[bayonetbrant]

Tim Lincecum has 2 and the only way he's getting into the HoF at this point is buying a ticket.

Ditto Johan Santana, but he might actually right the ship and get things together at some point.

[Bison]

Lincecum really good for about 5 years.  And I do think he should at least garner some consideration for two Cy Youngs and for his Post-season prowess and not that he gets in but certainly deserves to be looked at for his period of dominance.  I think the only thing is that Lincecum may very well be at the end of his career and won't have a late career resurgence, so that'll have an impact on the long productive career aspect of the way stats are geared toward selection criteria.  The Hall of Fame is on my bucket list of places to visit even though the process of who gets in or even considered is screwy.

Also one of my favorite baseball sites.  http://www.baseball-reference.com/

Moyer's career reminds me of Phil Neikro in some ways. 

[MetalDog]

I haven't been to the Hall either.  I WILL get there before I die.  And I agree on who they let vote.  It used to be beat writers and guys who covered the game seven days a week.  Now, I think all you have to be is a member of the Baseball Writers Association of America.  Don't quote me on that though.  And a fact that I am not sure everyone knows, but, the Hall is not run by MLB.  It's an independent entity.

[Bison]

I haven't been to the Hall either.  I WILL get there before I die.  And I agree on who they let vote.  It used to be beat writers and guys who covered the game seven days a week.  Now, I think all you have to be is a member of the Baseball Writers Association of America.  Don't quote me on that though.  And a fact that I am not sure everyone knows, but, the Hall is not run by MLB.  It's an independent entity.

Yeah they do have to be a BWAA member, which is to my understanding limited basically to print press types.

Here's a good one.  Compare someone like Mariano Rivera and Rollie Fingers.  Both HoF guys, but their stats aren't even really in the same league.  It's just one of those things were stats just are an oddity when it comes to selection.

[MetalDog]

It wouldn't hurt if there were era specific stats used as a floor to entry and a general guideline for consideration.  I mean, say, 400 HR, 1,200 RBI a .300 AVG and so on for hitters.  Maybe 250 Wins, 2,500 K's, 3.25 ERA, or 450 Saves.  They don't have to be hard and fast, but, it would give us an idea of who belongs and who doesn't.

[Bison]

It wouldn't hurt if there were era specific stats used as a floor to entry and a general guideline for consideration.  I mean, say, 400 HR, 1,200 RBI a .300 AVG and so on for hitters.  Maybe 250 Wins, 2,500 K's, 3.25 ERA, or 450 Saves.  They don't have to be hard and fast, but, it would give us an idea of who belongs and who doesn't.

The major issue with the hitting stats basis for everyday players is that players like Ozzie Smith would never, ever make that sort of cut.  28 career home runs.  793 career RBI. and a .262 BA.  But anyone would suggest Smith isn't a HoF player has no appreciation of his defensive prowless, leadership, and off the field class.

[MetalDog]

I get that.  I'm not advocating for strict measurements as the only way to enter, but, as a measuring tool for the era.  There are always going to be guys like Ozzie.  And his candidacy and entry into the Hall SHOULD be a no brainer.  But with some sort of agreed upon guidelines might help the evidently brain dead that vote to get it right more often than not.

[Bison]

Yeah I understand your point.  The only issue with the #'s only approach is that long careers almost become a requirement for induction.  I get not every one or two season flash in the pan should be in the hall, but there are just guys that help define an era.  Hershiser is another one like Saberhagen.   Do they deserve to be in?  Maybe not, but it'd be insane to talk about great pitchers of the 80s and at least not have them in the conversation.  John Smoltz for example wouldn't have made the cut if he hadn't had the dominant years as a closer in addition to his starting pitcher years.  Frankly even without the saves, Smoltz should be in the hall but I don't think he would have made the cut.

[MetalDog]

I would agree on Smoltz.  He won a Cy Young as a starter and dominated for three years as a closer.  There's no doubt that Atlanta wouldn't have won all those division titles without him.  Saberghagen isn't in the same league as Hershiser though.  I loved Sabes, even though I hate the Royals, but, Hershiser did it better, for longer.  And I thought he was a pretty good pitching coach in Texas, too :)

[Bison]

Their careers are pretty close.  Orel won more games, but they both played for horrid teams in the early 90s.  The Mets and the Indians.  Holy crap did they have some shitty years there between them.

[MetalDog]

http://m.mlb.com/player/121604/bret-saberhagen

http://m.mlb.com/player/115861/orel-hershiser

[Arctic Blast]

Their careers are pretty close.  Orel won more games, but they both played for horrid teams in the early 90s.  The Mets and the Indians.  Holy crap did they have some shitty years there between them.

Actually, those Indians teams Hershiser pitched for were offensive juggernauts. Kenny Lofton, Carlos Baerga, Albert Belle, Eddie Murray, Manny Ramirez, Jim Thome, Sandy Alomar...they smoked teams on a regular basis. Pretty decent bullpen, too. They won the division crown all 3 years that he was there. Lost the World Series to the Marlins in '97.

[bayonetbrant]

And the Braves in 95

[MetalDog]

Saberhagen raps!!

http://m.mlb.com/cutfour/2015/10/29/155923184/jimmy-fallon-talks-to-bret-saberhagen-on-tonight-show