Tactical Gaming

[GJK]

The two main problems with the original Squad Leader, aside from the fact that it's no longer in production, is that 1) as you add on more gamettes, you find that you have to unlearn what you've already learned in order to then learn a different way of doing or using things.  By the time you get to GI, or even CoD, you have a mess with the 4 different rulebooks and 2) there's not a large community that still plays SL so you will be hard pressed to find other opponents.  I'd highly, highly suggest picking up a $30 copy of the ASL Starter Kit 3 and try that one out.  You can omit the vehicles and ordnance and just concentrate on the infantry rules.  If you get stuck, there is a rather large online community that plays every day via VASSAL/VASL and they are very open to teaching new players (it's how I re-learned it). 

Don't feel bad about not groking the LnL rules, you're not alone.  Many have had problems and I got frustrated to the point that I sold my one LnL game.  I *think* that there's a pretty good game system in there but I'll be damned if I can figure out how to play it the way the designer intends it to be played.

I have the first game for Conflict of Heroes and aside from the beautiful components, I wasn't too impressed with it.  I understand that the rules changed after the first edition had been out for a while (I have a first edition of CoH) so I may have to look at it again some day.

The V&V stuff looks pretty good, if not a direct clone of ASL in the form of ASL-lite, which probably appeals to many people but I think that if you've already gone ASL and enjoy it, you wouldn't go "down" to V&V.

[Mad Russian]

I REALLY like the way the V&V rule book is put together. IMO, it's one of the best in the hobby. Somebody must like that system lots of playing time seems to be happening with it.

With regards to buying a copy of the original Fire Team, they can be had for around $20 used. The game is dated but still plays well. Change out the maps with any other tactical map system, ASL/LnL/CoH/etc... anything with tactical level terrain - individual buildings, outlines of trees, elevation differences - and it's even better. IMO, the maps were not FT's strong point.

Good Hunting.

[weateallthepies]

I do actually have a copy of the ASL Starter Kit 1, and I may have a pdf of the final rules from the last kit so I should be set for basic ASL. Problem is that was the first thing I bought as it was cheap, and I naturally struggled with it, from there I bought loads of lighter stuff and worked my way to Squad Leader. I should be fine to go back to ASL now, so I probably will once I'm done with some other games.

In the meantime though I've probably moved away a little from this sort of scale, and also even the period so I'm not in a huge rush while enjoying some other games. No doubt I'll get back to it though.

[bayonetbrant]

he has or had a used copy of Fire Team there.  I'm going to grab it if I see it and I'll report back...

I have an unpunched copy in the Man Cave

[Mad Russian]

Why did you never play it?

Now that I have hundreds of games, most of which I haven't every punched out the counters, it's interesting to me to see why others don't play their games that they have still sitting on the shelf.

I had a copy of Up Front/Bonsai and a friend of mine and his son really liked the game but their game of UF had some issues. Since I didn't care for the game I gave them both copies. I would rather see the game being played and give it away than sell it to a collector.

Good Hunting.

[bayonetbrant]

Why did you never play it?

I've played it a bunch, but somewhere along the way I tracked down a copy, and then moved to a town with fewer Grogs and fewer opportunities, at the same time I was working on the Warfighter games, so it my copy never got played.

[Mad Russian]

What is your assessment of the impulse system? Did you like it better than a more conventional IGOUG?

My own personal preferences are:
System: Impulse
Scale: Squad/Fire Team - Single Vehicle
CRT: dice and charts

Good Hunting.

[bayonetbrant]

I'm a platoon-level guy w/ some leaders that stick out/have their own counters where they are more notable than other leaders.

I like IGOUGO w/ some interruptions. where relevant.

[Mad Russian]

I've played quite a bit of platoon level games in my time too. At one point I had 10 sets of counters and 4 sets of maps for both Panzer Blitz and Panzer Leader.

Good Hunting.

[James Sterrett]

I have the first game for Conflict of Heroes and aside from the beautiful components, I wasn't too impressed with it.  I understand that the rules changed after the first edition had been out for a while (I have a first edition of CoH) so I may have to look at it again some day.

The impulse system in the first CoH game is not very good.  Oddly (and this is running on memory of a conversation with the designer when I was low on sleep at Origins several years ago - so take it with a grain of salt!) - the system used in 2.0 and onward was the original design, but they were worried that it was too different, so they pulled back some of its more radical elements.  The result didn't work.  Uwe showed me the differences and I've never played by the 1.0 rules!  :)

The big difference is that instead of alternating moving units for their entire action point allowance, with some crufty interrupt rules, you alternate doing single actions - move a hex, or fire once, or rally, etc.  At its best it makes for a very fluid and dynamic situation.  It doesn't model leaders explicitly, but the Command Point system is an abstraction of them.  (CPs are action points, in a pool renewed every turn, that you can spend on  anything an action point could be spent on (thus giving a unit more actions), or on influencing die rolls.)

[GJK]

The 1.0 components should be compatible with the 2.0 rules, right?  I do intend to look at it again some time.  Uwe is a real stand up guy.  I did the Zuntzu game box for CoH when it was first coming out and he sent me a new copy of the game with the expansion boards.  We spoke on the phone a few times - seems to be a great guy and avid gamer.

[bayonetbrant]

I don't know him well, but any time I've ever talked to him he's been a very engaging guy willing to take the time to chat.  I doubt he even remembers who I am, but that makes it even better - he's perfectly friendly with people he doesn't even know :)

I've not yet played CoH - mainly b/c I've got too many tactical games laying around already that I need to get back to playing!

[Mad Russian]

IMO, games that do single impulses that switch sides at after every action are too regimented. That's nothing more than UGO-IGO in smaller bites. That was the great thing about the Fire Team system. It was  random. You don't know for sure who's going to go next.

Good Hunting.

[bayonetbrant]

there's something to be said for Tank-on-Tank's AP system, too.  You draw your opponent's action points, and he goes until he hits the limit and you tell him to stop.  Younever know for sure how much you're going to get done.

[smittyohio]

I'd highly, highly suggest picking up a $30 copy of the ASL Starter Kit 3 and try that one out.  You can omit the vehicles and ordnance and just concentrate on the infantry rules.

I'd really like to get into the starter kits and learn the system, but the fact that whenever I go to the MMP site, so much of the system is "Temporarily Out of Stock!".

And ASL Starter Kit #1 is "Currently Out of Print!".   If they want to sell this stuff, they *really* need a better production process.   I see that 1 isn't needed for 3, but it sure would be nice to be able to learn the system in order, and have those scenarios to practice with.  I guess VASSAL would work, but it's just kind of off-putting the way MMP handles these.

Another example:  ASL Action Pack #4 - Normandy 1944  - contains:
3 ASL geomorphic mapboards (53, 54, and 55)
12 ASL scenarios featuring the new maps
2 errata pages for the ASL Rulebook

What are the prereqs for it?   Do I need Yanks...?  Which is out of print....