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Digital Gaming => Computer Gaming => Topic started by: Toonces on May 15, 2020, 07:57:32 PM

Title: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Toonces on May 15, 2020, 07:57:32 PM
I've been giving this some thought for a while, and it really struck home with me during the most recent DCS sale.

As I'm getting older, I'm finding I am increasingly unwilling to both try new games, and even more importantly, to invest myself in learning complex games.  The recent DCS sale was sort of the reality check that made me think of writing this.  Back in the day I would be so utterly thrilled with a sim like DCS.  I have a number of the modules and I have played it some, but at least half the modules I have I've never even installed, or have spent mere moments with.  When the latest sale popped, I thought for sure I was going to load up on some of the modules and maps I've been desiring: F/A-18, F-14 for sure.  Those jets are iconic to me, and the opportunity to finally get a true study sim of them is a dream come true.  Yet...I haven't bought them. 

As I downloaded some of the freebie trial stuff over the last few weeks, when I booted everything up I realized that I simply don't have the patience to spend the time to configure the controllers, not to mention actually learning how to do anything in the jets.  And on a similar note, I realized that with DCS once I got those two steps done I was still responsible for finding a fun way to fly them; ie. I would have to download or create my own missions.

I thought about it and I realized, why would I spend all that time?  If I want to fly a jet sim, I've got Falcon 4.0 that I've spent the last 20 years getting to know.  It just works.  And the dynamic campaign provides infinite replayability. 

I started digging into this subject and my own gaming habits and I see that I more or less follow this policy across the board.  Hex wargaming?  I have WitP:AE.  Armor simming?  I have Steel Beasts, but I can't keep up with the updates, and I don't have the patience to learn all of those vehicles either.  I'll stick to something simpler like ARMA or even SABOW.  Most of the newer Total War titles I haven't bought, and even Rome 2 hasn't gotten much play once they introduced that damn food mechanic.  I know how to play M2TW, I'll just stick to that thank you.  And so on.

I dunno.  I suppose this is what I always feared, that we'd finally start seeing the types of sims I've always dreamed of playing when I finally got too old and seasoned to give a crap.  I'm looking for more simplicity in my life, not more complexity.  Cold Waters is a prime example of this.  I like CMO and Dangerous Waters and such, but at the end of the day Cold Waters provides all the entertainment with none of the hassle.  I actually find myself preferring the lighter fare of a game rather than the sim of something like DW.  I can boot up Cold Waters and the game does all of the heavy lifting to find me something to do; I don't have to download anything and I don't have to create anything.

Overall I have a library of hundreds of games, but I'll bet there are only about 10 that I spend any time playing anymore.  They're all games that I've been playing for years, am comfortable with, and provide me whatever flavor of fix I'm looking for.  It really is too bad because I think we're entering a really great era of gaming.

Anyway, get of my lawn!   >:(

(https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/49f7469e2062e9febf8693e04b318e9d?width=1024)
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Barthheart on May 15, 2020, 08:24:22 PM
Preach it brother! Yer not alone.  :P
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Sir Slash on May 15, 2020, 09:31:43 PM
Right there with you man. I share your frustration at having to learn complex new game systems and rules. I just don't have the time anymore. I have NAPS to take!  >:(
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Vintage Dude on May 15, 2020, 09:32:34 PM
I have reached the age where I am in total agreement. I keep buying new games which look great but I don't have the desire to learn them. So, I keep going back to the old standbys. The games that I buy are improved versions of what I have loved in the past. However, I watch a few YouTube videos, mess with them some, and then say "screw it" and go back to the old faithful games. Aging can be a bitch.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Vintage Dude on May 15, 2020, 09:34:53 PM
There is a lot to be said for NAPS.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Sir Slash on May 15, 2020, 09:39:27 PM
In my nap dreams, I'm always able to learn new games really easy.  :dreamer:
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Vintage Dude on May 15, 2020, 09:43:56 PM
Everything looks better in your dreams. I would keep this conversation going but it's almost my bedtime.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: 88mmkwk on May 15, 2020, 11:25:23 PM
Toonces -

You have hit directly on a theme that is in my mind quite a bit these days.  I've come to recognize that as I get older, my excitement and desire to play a new game doesn't often match my actual ability to spend time learning it.  And as age increases the value of time remaining, I have come to realize that simple enthusiasm for seeing a new game that interests me cannot simply result in acquisition. To do so is a waste of my resources both in terms of time and finances.  I've noticed that as games get more complex and require more investment in learning time, I'm increasingly apt to get disappointed when I spend time to learn a new game only to find I am less than enthralled with the game for a long term time investment.  IOW, I have wasted precious time learning a game that I will simply kick to the curb.  So what's the outcome of all this?  Like you and other posters above noted, I now tend to stick to the familiar formulas as they are a known quantity and I know the games I like.  Believe it or not, I still occasionally play SSI's "Panzer Strike" on a C-64 emulator on my hyper-powered laptop setup.  Why?  It brings me great nostalgic value, I enjoy the relative simplicity of the game, and I like seeing a battle play out as my troops enact high level Command orders (not micromanaged) that I have issued earlier.  There's ZERO eye candy and I instead use my imagination to create a visual of the battle unfolding before me.  Crazy that this little C-64 tactical game from the 1980's can capture my imagination, but it still does and I'm sure this makes no sense to most folks....

But because so much neat eye candy and intriguing game systems are coming out, I find myself using YouTube to dive in to them.  Whereas I would have bought and played them 20-30 years ago, I instead use YouTube to watch "Lets Play.." series and soak in the game vicariously through someone else playing it.  I am especially fond of watching videos of any of the Graviteam games as I love the system beyond a level that I could ever be competent at playing.  But I admire it from a distance.  The good news is I can step away at any time in a YouTube video and come back when time allows.  Many of the deeper games released today require a constant immersion and time commitment that I simply cannot afford today.

I also play board games and find that games that are a series provide me the same value proposition.  I love GMT's "No Retreat" system and find that its easier to simply learn the unique difference rules for each game in the series vs. learning a whole new system.  Less time learning means more time playing (hopefully) competently for me.  The No Retreat board game system has modules for most fronts in WW2, and this lets me leverage what I've already taken time to learn and lets me start playing a new module more quickly.  Such is the same with computer games, as I have found that learning AGEOD game systems (Alea Jacta Est, Civil War 2, etc) lets me more quickly get into a new game than I could otherwise.  Even if I have some issues with the core system, I find great redeeming value in the overall ability to leverage what I've learned about the system to enable playing games across various widely different time periods.

The years have provided me personal insight into the reality that mental agility and patience/temperance fade with age no different than physical prowess and strength....I realize I need to clearly focus on the things I enjoy more than the things I hope I will enjoy....With all the above said, I love how much joy and happiness wargaming - computer or board gaming - and hanging out here with all you wise, witty and friendly folks provides me on a regular basis!  I will honestly admit that I come to Grogheads Forums to read before I ever boot up a game.  This place and everyone here is digital crack to me!
:smitten:
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: airboy on May 15, 2020, 11:30:53 PM
The only saving throw is retirement.  You have so much more you can learn new game systems - if you want to. 

Since I retired I've learned at least 10 new game systems from very simple to moderately challenging.  I NEVER had the time to do this when I was working full time plus two other jobs that sometimes made me put in more hours than my full time job.

Something to look forward to.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Toonces on May 15, 2020, 11:31:26 PM
Man, that is a great quote:  "I realize I need to clearly focus on the things I enjoy more than the things I hope I will enjoy..."

You make a good point on the YouTube videos.  I've been really enjoying watching videos posted by Grim Reapers of DCS gameplay. 

I'm certainly not opposed to trying a new game if it's the right game.  I'm really looking forward to Task Force Admiral and Naval Warfare in the Missile Age.  They don't look overly complex, and the fun vs. investment factor is high.

The last game I bought, ironically enough, is Harpoon 3 Ultimate Edition, simply because I've been playing Harpoon forever, and I'm much more comfortable with it than with CMO...despite CMO being the better simulation.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Father Ted on May 16, 2020, 05:18:24 AM
Good thread Toonces.  I was going to write a big long reply, but when it comes to it I find I can't be bothered...
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Jarhead0331 on May 16, 2020, 06:02:23 AM
Age, responsibility, time, patience, etc. are all factors in this phenomena. However, for me it is cyclical. My tolerance for learning and sticking with a new complex game ebbs and flows...I'm not sure what prompts it, but over the last couple of years I'd say I've made more progress in extremely complex games and simulations then I have in recent memory. Right now, I'm really unraveling Aurora. Before that, it was CMO. I'm always coming back to DCS when a new module comes out...but in between these great triumphs, there is a lot of down time, soul searching and doubt.

Stick with it bro, and don't over analyze. When the time comes to jump back in, you'll know it. Just roll with it.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: rwenstrup on May 16, 2020, 06:16:31 AM
It appears the trend has been to add more and more to the complexity of games ... but to me the real opportunity is to make games simple, with many scenarios and exceptional artificial intelligence ...
I look at some of the board game conversions like Blocks Richard III and see a great game engine, but no real computer opponent, wonder why on earth you wouldn't upgrade the graphics in Steel Panthers, etc.
It seems to me simple graphics, simple mechanics and a clever opponent is the key.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: twitter3 on May 16, 2020, 09:31:20 AM
I also find myself playing a handful of games I have owned for some time and know how to play fully. Games such as Forge of Freedom, Crown of Glory: EE, Wars in America 2, Campaign Series, Rise of Prussia to name a few. I find a book that matches the game period and then read and play and find that by doing that the book and game brings me more understanding of the topics.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Vintage Dude on May 16, 2020, 10:38:30 AM
I also come here for my initial information about a game. Every game that I have bought in the last few years, I first heard about here. I do find myself being more interested in simpler games instead of the complex, micromanagement hell, monster games of years past. All of the information available here and elsewhere seems to be a double-edged sword. I find myself watching videos and researching games more than actually playing them.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Sir Slash on May 16, 2020, 10:51:52 AM
I also watch the YouTube videos of games I don't have time to play. Then I can't remember if it was me or somebody else that played them. The way to tell for sure is if it's a loss against the game, then it's usually me.

I used to, 'binge-buy' games more when I was young than now. Rarely comes the game I feel like I just have to have anymore. Good example is the Combat Mission DLC's. I want to twitch buy them right away but I then tell myself, I haven't even come close to finishing the ones I own now. And, then I tell myself, 'Maybe the prices will drop'. Then I laugh out loud.  :2funny:
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: JasonPratt on May 16, 2020, 01:56:10 PM
This overlaps with a realization I had a few days ago while traveling, that many of us (myself included) are effectively acting as art supporters. We don't use a lot of the things we buy; we buy them partly out of appreciation that someone is willing to make the effort for an art we appreciate in principle (even when not always in practice).
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Martok on May 16, 2020, 02:41:44 PM
I definitely understand where you're coming from, Toonces.  I think it goes without saying that it gets more difficult as we age; it's certainly not impossible, but we do tend to have to work harder for it.  Learning new games just isn't as easy as it used to be for me, especially when they're more complex ones. 

Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: ComradeP on May 16, 2020, 02:56:47 PM
Good thread Toonces.

Though I'm only in my 30's, I have had difficulty with truly diving into something new for a couple of years now. That is, more complex games.

I could spend some time on learning the system, hoping I'll enjoy it, but if I don't like how the system works after a day or two of gaming, I probably won't touch the game again.

Though simulations can become more complex now that computers become more and more powerful, mainstream games have tended to go in the opposite direction towards "streamlining" and if there's one thing I'm not particularly fond of, it's removing gameplay options for no clear reason. Since many PC titles are not PC-only but also become available on consoles, there are some serious limitations packed into those games to make sure they work on slower systems (consoles). I have no desire to play such games, or to spend the time learning whatever quirky mechanics were added in the latest part of a fashionable series.

Most of the gaming I do at a friend's place comes from collections of various arcade or 1980's/early 1990's games. Plenty of lives and no quarters.

Most of us have been gaming for so long that we've seen and played most of the "classics" and highlights in the genres we enjoy, so a game has to be very good in order to be as refreshing and entertaining as the classics. As a teenager, I played a lot of multiplayer shooters, but I have not even the slightest interest in the popular shooters of today. My reflexes are not good enough any more to compete with the youngsters in the more frantic shooters, and I just don't think they'll offer me something I haven't experienced years or even decades ago.

I only play a limited number of casual games and spend by far the most of my time on John Tiller Software/Wargame Design Studio games. That has been the case for years and I doubt it will change.

JasonPratt: sometimes I indeed buy games to support a certain developer or to literally look at the art on the map.

Similar to what 88mmkwk wrote, I spend a lot of time just looking at the maps in the Panzer Campaigns/First World War Campaigns/Panzer Battles series trying to envision what the battle that was fought there was like, or planning moves I'll never actually make in a game. It's the PC equivalent of playing with toy soldiers and just imagining a battle somewhere in Normandy whilst in reality the main threats to your little plastic troops consist of the cat and the vacuum cleaner.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Jarhead0331 on May 16, 2020, 03:01:59 PM
Quote from: ComradeP on May 16, 2020, 02:56:47 PM

Though I'm only in my 30's...

What makes me feel really old is that when I first started posting in the same forums as you, you were only like 15... :hide:
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: hellfish6 on May 16, 2020, 03:55:19 PM
I'm there with ya, bud.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Gusington on May 16, 2020, 03:57:15 PM
That post by ComradeP is the worst ever...30s?? Where'd all the time go...looking over at my 15 year old daughter  :'(
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Millipede on May 16, 2020, 04:03:58 PM
^
Gee that's tough.

My youngest grandchild will be 20 in August.  :hide:
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Tripoli on May 16, 2020, 04:07:53 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on May 16, 2020, 03:01:59 PM
Quote from: ComradeP on May 16, 2020, 02:56:47 PM

Though I'm only in my 30's...

What makes me feel really old is that when I first started posting in the same forums as you, you were only like 15... :hide:

When I first started gaming, ComradeP wasn't even a glimmer in his Dad's eye.  ;D
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Gusington on May 16, 2020, 04:17:06 PM
I can't handle the olde.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Vintage Dude on May 16, 2020, 04:25:09 PM
Here are just a few of the games that I started on:
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: ComradeP on May 16, 2020, 04:32:16 PM
QuoteWhat makes me feel really old is that when I first started posting in the same forums as you, you were only like 15...

17 or 18 probably, but yeah, we've known each other since I was a stubborn teenager with a strong opinion.

Nearly 15 years or so.

Maybe we'll be migrating to another forum in the next 15 years, but I think most of us won't really change much at this point. Maybe our taste for games. Who knows, maybe I'll be playing sports games when I'm in my forties.

When it comes to gaming, the only thing I've really noticed compared to many of you when it comes to being younger is that I didn't own a single actual board wargame until a couple of years ago. In fact, I didn't even know The Great Battles of Alexander, my first wargame, was actually based on a board wargame at the time.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: MC on May 16, 2020, 05:04:53 PM
I'm getting so damn old I'm starting to have an interest in mortuary simulators. Hoping for an early access release because I don't know if I can wait until a 1.0 version. Of course, I made be dead wrong on that count.  :D
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: airboy on May 16, 2020, 05:18:22 PM
Quote from: Vintage Dude on May 16, 2020, 04:25:09 PM
Here are just a few of the games that I started on:

I still own half of these.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Sparhawk on May 16, 2020, 05:25:36 PM
I've got more than a handful of years before I retire, ok almost 2 handfuls,  but I find myself going back to my mainstays most of the time. I have a group of games I usually rotate through and I think that's because it's hard to beat a proven game. Yes, I've less patience than when I was younger, but I think that's just because I'm more wore out doing the same real life work as when I was in my 20's. When I'm tired I just want to sit back and play, I don't want it to be more work. I don't necessarily shy away from complex new games, I'm very excited about Shadow Empire, but a game really has to reach out and grab me to want to put the effort into mastering it. I'd say I'm just more picky. I'm going to have to be between jobs to delve into Aurora again though.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: rwenstrup on May 16, 2020, 05:53:05 PM
Vintage Dude,
I think you stole my games!!! I think I have every one of those!
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Vintage Dude on May 16, 2020, 06:43:08 PM
Quote from: rwenstrup on May 16, 2020, 05:53:05 PM
Vintage Dude,
I think you stole my games!!! I think I have every one of those!
I am glad to hear that. That's about 25% of my collection. For years my wife has been after me to get rid of them. She claims that nobody else would be stupid enough to hang on to all of those games. Now I can tell her that at least one other person is like me. Thanks for helping me out.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Tripoli on May 16, 2020, 07:04:58 PM
VntageDude: I have most of the games in your collection.  I don't have the first edition of Bismark that you have (I have the 1977 version), but I'm old enough to recognize it by the corner of the box you photographed.  However, I did own the orignal (not AH) version of Dauntless, so that makes us tied  ;-)

Edit: I just realized, that is a 1st edition of Anzio.  I have the 1975 version.  You win. :)
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Vintage Dude on May 16, 2020, 07:47:37 PM
We both win because we enjoyed them in their day and still have them to help bring back the memories. I attached a picture of a few more. As you can see, they are dusty and haven't been played in decades. My son got the wargaming bug from me but he only goes back as far as AOE II and Rise of Nations.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Sir Slash on May 16, 2020, 10:13:54 PM
I'm so old that when I started gaming we didn't have dice. We had to roll rocks instead. And, 'Opportunity Fire' was something you came across burning to cook Mastodon on.  :o
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Vintage Dude on May 16, 2020, 10:17:44 PM
Now that is REALLY old.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: rwenstrup on May 17, 2020, 06:47:03 AM
Vintage Dude,
You clearly are my brother from another mother! I have a couple of shelves in the basement that look just like that! I guess I can come out of hiding ... thought I might be put away for harboring ancient games!
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Phantom on May 17, 2020, 07:13:25 AM
Gosh - I could have written Toonces OP.
I mentioned on another thread how I managed to access some older games - Age of Rifles & Tanks. I found myself instantly drawn into the easier gaming style - I didn't look at the manuals - you can figure 90% of it out with some knowledge of the combat hardware & the history and just start playing - great!.
As with all other posters, up until recently I'd found myself drawn into a (misguided) desire for more complexity which I've recently abandoned. For example I have many AGEOD/Paradox games, but some of the recent iterations of Rome/Europa Universalis or Crusader kings, whilst adding another level of complexity, don't for me add anything else, and as mentioned by Toonces actually create a barrier to starting a game.
So my new motto is K.I.S.S.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Tripoli on May 17, 2020, 07:47:00 AM
Quote from: Phantom on May 17, 2020, 07:13:25 AM
Gosh - I could have written Toonces OP.
I mentioned on another thread how I managed to access some older games - Age of Rifles & Tanks. I found myself instantly drawn into the easier gaming style - I didn't look at the manuals - you can figure 90% of it out with some knowledge of the combat hardware & the history and just start playing - great!.
As with all other posters, up until recently I'd found myself drawn into a (misguided) desire for more complexity which I've recently abandoned. For example I have many AGEOD/Paradox games, but some of the recent iterations of Rome/Europa Universalis or Crusader kings, whilst adding another level of complexity, don't for me add anything else, and as mentioned by Toonces actually create a barrier to starting a game.
So my new motto is K.I.S.S.

While I agree that K.I.S.S is probably my preferred "go to" theory of gaming right now (actually, I don't even have time to do much gaming right now), let me make one observation to the older folks here: Unless you actively try to stretch your mind, you tend to atrophy, especially as you get older.  So, while the K.I.S.S system may be good, you may want to consider trying to get into something new and/or more complicated that stretches your mental abilities.  That doesn't necessarily mean all your games have to be complex monstrosities, but possibly you pick one game on a topic that interests you and is more complex (or simply different in terms of mechanics) and spend the time digging into it. 
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Vintage Dude on May 17, 2020, 09:46:57 AM
Quote from: rwenstrup on May 17, 2020, 06:47:03 AM
Vintage Dude,
You clearly are my brother from another mother! I have a couple of shelves in the basement that look just like that! I guess I can come out of hiding ... thought I might be put away for harboring ancient games!
Stay strong my friend. It's good to know that I am not alone, as my wife would have me believe. Don't let anyone convince you that those games are junk and should be tossed out.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: mbar on May 17, 2020, 04:37:48 PM
I agree with much of this thread. My expectations of gaming as it was evolving was to see more immersive interactions with the game world and the AI. For example way back Counter-Strike Condition Zero introduced this Turtle AI that you could basically import any custom map and it would create a pathing layer for the AI bots. But fast forward to 2020 and most gaming is geared toward online play with other people. Easier to create a sandbox for multiple people and more lucrative. I'm am getting purchasing fatigue. What is this new game? What is the business model? What kind of DRM does this game have? Just how many DLC is this game planning to milk the customer? Not that I have not been buying games but I feel I spend more time researching and purchasing than actual gaming.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: MengJiao on May 17, 2020, 05:41:25 PM
Quote from: Vintage Dude on May 16, 2020, 10:17:44 PM
Now that is REALLY old.

  I dunno.  I'm 64 and I've been playing war games since I was 10, starting with Bismarck of course.  I generally have some kind of trouble learning anything, but my basic solution is just to keep at it and if necessary modify the thing or at least limit my exposure to pure frustration.  So I'm having trouble finding a good game about the Spanish Armada and I think the basic problem is not accepting the necessity of a doomed Spanish onslaught while not neglecting the
constraints that were present leading up to August 1588.  I'm also having trouble learning machine learning so why not combine those?  I'm trying to write some machine learning stuff to "parse" the data on the 132 ships of the armada and the hundreds (including the Dutch after all) that hindered them.  So far I can "predict" the tonnage/culverin relation for the English ships but not much else.    Okay so...you could develop some models that over time will yield different configurations for the "Enterprise of England" so -- less frustration and more programming and maybe I'll get the game working in C# in UNITY or something and Kickstart it or something.

  So..sure...learning can be frustrating but you can sort of game that and overcome multiple problems by letting them sort of bounce off each other, making progress on an uneven set of imperfectly interrelated fronts.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: smittyohio on May 17, 2020, 05:48:28 PM
Quote from: Vintage Dude on May 17, 2020, 09:46:57 AM
Quote from: rwenstrup on May 17, 2020, 06:47:03 AM
Vintage Dude,
You clearly are my brother from another mother! I have a couple of shelves in the basement that look just like that! I guess I can come out of hiding ... thought I might be put away for harboring ancient games!
Stay strong my friend. It's good to know that I am not alone, as my wife would have me believe. Don't let anyone convince you that those games are junk and should be tossed out.

My wife has put up with my 300+ item board game collection so far... I'm terrified of what will become of it should anything happen to me.    :knuppel2:
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Vintage Dude on May 17, 2020, 09:05:09 PM
Quote from: MengJiao on May 17, 2020, 05:41:25 PM
Quote from: Vintage Dude on May 16, 2020, 10:17:44 PM
Now that is REALLY old.

  I dunno.  I'm 64 and I've been playing war games since I was 10, starting with Bismarck of course.  I generally have some kind of trouble learning anything, but my basic solution is just to keep at it and if necessary modify the thing or at least limit my exposure to pure frustration.  So I'm having trouble finding a good game about the Spanish Armada and I think the basic problem is not accepting the necessity of a doomed Spanish onslaught while not neglecting the
constraints that were present leading up to August 1588.  I'm also having trouble learning machine learning so why not combine those?  I'm trying to write some machine learning stuff to "parse" the data on the 132 ships of the armada and the hundreds (including the Dutch after all) that hindered them.  So far I can "predict" the tonnage/culverin relation for the English ships but not much else.    Okay so...you could develop some models that over time will yield different configurations for the "Enterprise of England" so -- less frustration and more programming and maybe I'll get the game working in C# in UNITY or something and Kickstart it or something.

 
I am also 64 and my first game was "Bismarck" followed by "Guadalcanal" and other Avalon Hill games. I started at about 12 years of age. I was an early modder as I would make my own die-cut counters to use with the ones that came with the game. When everything went digitalmy modding ended, except for the Steam Workshop.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Vintage Dude on May 17, 2020, 09:11:15 PM
smittyohio

I know what will happen to my boardgames if something happens to me:
GONE
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Sir Slash on May 17, 2020, 09:48:02 PM
64 Also as of March. My first wargame was, 'Waterloo' by Avon Hill followed closely by, 'Midway'. That's if you don't count, 'Dogfight' and, 'Broadside' by American Heritage. I was  :nerd: before  :nerd: was cool.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: MengJiao on May 18, 2020, 09:44:46 AM

  I count those!  Those were fun games.  I got Bismarck and Gettysburg before I played those.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Sir Slash on May 18, 2020, 10:02:24 AM
How about, 'Sub Hunt' on my Intellivision way back there.  <:-)
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Gusington on May 18, 2020, 10:31:44 AM
 :2funny: 'Intellivision'!!!
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Phantom on May 18, 2020, 11:31:33 AM
Quote from: Tripoli on May 17, 2020, 07:47:00 AM
Quote from: Phantom on May 17, 2020, 07:13:25 AM
Gosh - I could have written Toonces OP.
I mentioned on another thread how I managed to access some older games - Age of Rifles & Tanks. I found myself instantly drawn into the easier gaming style - I didn't look at the manuals - you can figure 90% of it out with some knowledge of the combat hardware & the history and just start playing - great!.
As with all other posters, up until recently I'd found myself drawn into a (misguided) desire for more complexity which I've recently abandoned. For example I have many AGEOD/Paradox games, but some of the recent iterations of Rome/Europa Universalis or Crusader kings, whilst adding another level of complexity, don't for me add anything else, and as mentioned by Toonces actually create a barrier to starting a game.
So my new motto is K.I.S.S.

While I agree that K.I.S.S is probably my preferred "go to" theory of gaming right now (actually, I don't even have time to do much gaming right now), let me make one observation to the older folks here: Unless you actively try to stretch your mind, you tend to atrophy, especially as you get older.  So, while the K.I.S.S system may be good, you may want to consider trying to get into something new and/or more complicated that stretches your mental abilities.  That doesn't necessarily mean all your games have to be complex monstrosities, but possibly you pick one game on a topic that interests you and is more complex (or simply different in terms of mechanics) and spend the time digging into it.

I certainly agree about stretching your mind, but do you stretch your mind more by becoming accomplished and regularly playing a "simple" game like chess, or by learning all the rules, interactions & caveats in EU4? - and (thinking whilst typing) is that a left half/right half brain thing?
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Vintage Dude on May 18, 2020, 11:46:39 AM
I agree that you need to stretch your mind. I still have the mental capabilities to learn new games. The question is if the payoff is worth the investment.

As to the old board games, I started with all Avalon Hill games. Then they got too expensive for me and I discovered SPI games.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Tripoli on May 18, 2020, 01:42:41 PM
Quote from: Phantom on May 18, 2020, 11:31:33 AM
Quote from: Tripoli on May 17, 2020, 07:47:00 AM
Quote from: Phantom on May 17, 2020, 07:13:25 AM
Gosh - I could have written Toonces OP.
I mentioned on another thread how I managed to access some older games - Age of Rifles & Tanks. I found myself instantly drawn into the easier gaming style - I didn't look at the manuals - you can figure 90% of it out with some knowledge of the combat hardware & the history and just start playing - great!.
As with all other posters, up until recently I'd found myself drawn into a (misguided) desire for more complexity which I've recently abandoned. For example I have many AGEOD/Paradox games, but some of the recent iterations of Rome/Europa Universalis or Crusader kings, whilst adding another level of complexity, don't for me add anything else, and as mentioned by Toonces actually create a barrier to starting a game.
So my new motto is K.I.S.S.

While I agree that K.I.S.S is probably my preferred "go to" theory of gaming right now (actually, I don't even have time to do much gaming right now), let me make one observation to the older folks here: Unless you actively try to stretch your mind, you tend to atrophy, especially as you get older.  So, while the K.I.S.S system may be good, you may want to consider trying to get into something new and/or more complicated that stretches your mental abilities.  That doesn't necessarily mean all your games have to be complex monstrosities, but possibly you pick one game on a topic that interests you and is more complex (or simply different in terms of mechanics) and spend the time digging into it.

I certainly agree about stretching your mind, but do you stretch your mind more by becoming accomplished and regularly playing a "simple" game like chess, or by learning all the rules, interactions & caveats in EU4? - and (thinking whilst typing) is that a left half/right half brain thing?

Regarding the question  as to whether you stretch your mind by becoming more accomplished or by learning something new, I would answer "Yes."   ;D   I Certainly, someone who devotes himself to becoming a chess master is stretching his mind.  However, it is also good to pick up something new.  Consider a truly expert brain surgeon, a master of his craft.  Might he benefit from learning how to play piano?  Studies have shown that some of the most creative solutions to issues come not from experts, but from intelligent people with only a moderate level of undertanding of the problem at hand.  Therefore, while I would not condemn someone from developing an expertise in any field as they grew older, I would nonetheless counsel them to also try something different. 
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: berto on May 18, 2020, 01:46:25 PM
I started with AH Gettysburg and Tactics II c. 1962.  And did the SPI thing big time in the 1970s.

I would like to learn and play deeply immersive and detailed, complex games (CMO for instance).  But as a developer, I must stay focused on my work.  After coding games all day (7 days a week even), in the evening, at the end of the day, I am spent, have little energy left to play them.  All Work and No Play Makes Berto a Dull Boy.   :(

But yeah, stretching the mind?  A good reason I continue to do this.  Use it or lose it.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: MengJiao on May 18, 2020, 02:05:22 PM
Quote from: MengJiao on May 18, 2020, 09:44:46 AM

  I count those!  Those were fun games.  I got Bismarck and Gettysburg before I played those.

  Another thing to consider is that games have been changing for a lot of different reasons and I think I like most of them:

1) the technology is available to make complex simulations accessible (eg. DCS) and this has its own dynamics so you sort of just have to go with that flow
2) but some games have definitely gone off the deep end of complexity...I confess that I no longer find such games particularly rewarding
3)BUT some games have an interesting level of complexity -- due partly I think to there being more documentation available (for example the Greatest Day game covering the UK-Commonwealth Beaches in Normandy in the company level series by Adam Starkweather) -- I find these intriguing if baffling at times
4) while others have evolved toward a nicely engineered simplicity (Hoplite evolving out of The Great Battles of History series for example or Flying Colors) without sacrificing much realism
5) Others -- Winter War or HLL just accidently hit a sweet spot for me instantly and inexplicably.
6) and there's just a lot more games so that's good!
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: RyanE on May 18, 2020, 04:22:38 PM
"I would like to learn and play deeply immersive and detailed, complex games (CMO for instance)."

Lot of discussion about "complex" games.  CMO is a great example. Its only complex if you want to play it that way.  Waragmers tend to want to micromanage everything like control freaks.  In CMO, you can play very simple scenarios and play relatively complex scenarios simply.  Its the gamers choice.  The problem is that older wargamers are used to playing boardgames and older PC games where you had to be every unit's brain and look at every rivet.  So a game comes out like CMO and older wargamers want to start with a scenario that has 3000 units, logistics, multiple sides, comms simulation, etc.  And they want to control every unit because that's how the Harpoon boardgame did it.

I play Steel beasts as a wargame so I will compare it to CM.  In SB, I can simply script out a company movement down a road and have the convoy halt and find cover as scouts retreat back on contact.  I can do that in less than 5 minutes.  In CM, its a 30-45 minute chore of waypoints, orders, etc. for each and every unit.  That's what I have lost patience for.  I know a dev can make complex simple, but they choose not to.

Some of the same people who love DCS's buttonology are the same people complaining about complexity for the sake of complexity.  I don't need to hit 15 buttons to turn the power on in a cockpit.  It adds nothing to what I want a flightsim to do.  Its great you put that level of detail into a sim, but just start the plane.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: MetalDog on May 18, 2020, 05:28:24 PM
Quote from: berto on May 18, 2020, 01:46:25 PM
I started with AH Gettysburg and Tactics II c. 1962.  And did the SPI thing big time in the 1970s.

Every time the old board game Grognards start reminiscing, it's always about old Avalon Hill titles or Midway or some such.  My first wargame was Tactics II.  Good to see I wasn't the only one!   O0
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Toonces on May 18, 2020, 07:07:50 PM
There's nothing inherently wrong with complex games.  10 years ago I would have been utterly thrilled with something like DCS.  Now, though, I sit down, download a new module and then it's like, crap, I've gotta spend the next several hours setting up my HOTAS, then I have to figure out how to even use the plane, and then finally I have to create, download or otherwise find something to do with it gameplay-wise.  Nothing wrong with any of that except, for me, I just say screw it and find something else to do without the front-loaded baggage.  Heck, even BMS has succumbed to this through feature creep.  Those guys just had to keep adding layers and layers of complexity, and finally with this last update I have to program a data cartridge, plug in all the radio frequencies, laser frequencies, IFF frequencies....it's like damn, what was wrong with just hitting the "tower" button, or "wingman" button to talk, or pressing the "IFF" button to query targets?  All that realism just isn't fun (to me).  Not to mention that every time the devs update BMS they break all the theaters and campaigns users have created, which is frankly stupid in my opinion.

CMO is a great simulation.  But I've been playing Harpoon for 20+ years.  I could sit down and learn CMO or I could just stick with what I know.

That's really my point.  It's not so much a rail against complexity than it is coming to the realization that I stick with what's comfortable more often than not.

I stand in admiration of folks like Jarhead who can play through dozens of games a year.  I simply don't have that kind of patience.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Vintage Dude on May 18, 2020, 09:15:15 PM
Quote from: MetalDog on May 18, 2020, 05:28:24 PM
Quote from: berto on May 18, 2020, 01:46:25 PM
I started with AH Gettysburg and Tactics II c. 1962.  And did the SPI thing big time in the 1970s.

Every time the old board game Grognards start reminiscing, it's always about old Avalon Hill titles or Midway or some such.  My first wargame was Tactics II.  Good to see I wasn't the only one!   O0

I have most of the Avalon Hill games except for Tactics II. I never got it because in my youth I only wanted to recreate real battles.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Anguille on May 19, 2020, 02:19:38 AM
I think that one of the big problems is that there are just too many games. When i started to play computer games in 1993, i had only Master of Orion and Fields of Glory....and physical manuals i could study. Plenty of time to focus on two games. Today i have hundreds of games, digital manuals that are a pain to read on the computer (i think GalCiv3 manual has over 300 pages) and a lot less time. I am pretty sure that if there was only one great new game every year, it would spend more time learning it.

And it's true, like you said it, if we already own a similar game that we master, why bother learning a new one?





Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: berto on May 19, 2020, 06:22:15 AM
Quote from: RyanE on May 18, 2020, 04:22:38 PM
"I would like to learn and play deeply immersive and detailed, complex games (CMO for instance)."

Lot of discussion about "complex" games.  CMO is a great example. Its only complex if you want to play it that way.

I am not daunted by the prospect of learning the CMO game mechanics.  It's the subject matter I find challenging.  So many aircraft types, so many different esoteric weapon systems, a whole different jargon!  I'm an old land warfare gamer.  This fancy air and sea stuff intimidates me.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: ComradeP on May 19, 2020, 09:58:58 AM
I prefer games covering land warfare between 1900 and 1950 or so.

The pace is not too slow, not too fast. There's limited technical complexity involved in the tactics and equipment.

I also second Anguille's too many games comment. Steam in particular sells so many games that it's difficult for the customer to find hidden gems. I end up purchasing games I know or that look appealing whenever I stumble upon them.

The good thing about playing mostly Tiller titles is that 1-2 new games I'm interested in are released every 1-2 years.

It's kind of ironic that many highly complex games still give the player so much control over individual components/units or have so many highly detailed ánd highly underdeveloped mechanics at the same time (capturing flags with the field telephone half-track in Graviteam Tactics) that they become the opposite of realistic.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: MetalDog on May 19, 2020, 02:50:53 PM
Quote from: berto on May 19, 2020, 06:22:15 AM
Quote from: RyanE on May 18, 2020, 04:22:38 PM
"I would like to learn and play deeply immersive and detailed, complex games (CMO for instance)."

Lot of discussion about "complex" games.  CMO is a great example. Its only complex if you want to play it that way.

I am not daunted by the prospect of learning the CMO game mechanics.  It's the subject matter I find challenging.  So many aircraft types, so many different esoteric weapon systems, a whole different jargon!  I'm an old land warfare gamer.  This fancy air and sea stuff intimidates me.

Once again, you and me are on the same side!
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: smithcorp on May 19, 2020, 10:52:55 PM
Quote from: RyanE on May 18, 2020, 04:22:38 PM
I don't need to hit 15 buttons to turn the power on in a cockpit.  It adds nothing to what I want a flightsim to do.  Its great you put that level of detail into a sim, but just start the plane.

God, thank you! I sometimes watch DCS videos and can't imagine talking 15 minutes to start the aircraft!
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: FarAway Sooner on May 20, 2020, 01:17:10 AM
Great thread, guys!

I first cut my teeth on AH's War at Sea, at the tender age of 7.  Victory in the Pacific was my 2nd title, and D-Day was my third.  I think Ogre might have been #4!  From there, I sprawled into all sorts of sci-fi, WW II, and even a couple fantasy board games.  I played the bejeezus out of the original Star Fleet Battles, and I still have a box where I must have 30 of those microgames.  Man, was I pissed up when they upped the unit price on those from $2.95 to $3.95!

I definitely don't have the appetite for complicated PC gaming that I used to.  A lot of that is just tied to lifestyle (I'm past 50, I'm married and I have a 7-year old and a 10-year old, I stay very active coaching them up in sports leagues when we're not in the midst of a global pandemic, most of the close friends I used to play games with have kids too, etc.).

Having a full-time job and two kids to keep up with, I just don't have the mental energy to dive into complex games by the time my night is done and I have an uninterrupted hour or two.  The mind is still willing, but the flesh is weak!

For me, an awful lot of what turns me off so many "new" games is monotony.  When I'm not gaming with friends, a huge part of my enjoyment comes from figuring out a new system.  When I come across a truly novel complex system in a package that features good game play (like AI Wars or Rome: Total War or Distant Worlds: Universe), I still find myself rising to the challenge of grocking out a new game.

But, after playing games for more than 40 years, I find it pretty easy to diagnose what's going on in a game.  I might not be able to master all the mechanics right away, but I've mastered similar mechanics so many times, I know what the journey's going to be like, and I'm just not that intrigued.

Complexity by itself is overrated.  I think Settlers of Catan really triggered a new wave in gaming about 20 years ago, when they came up with the idea of MUCH simpler mechanics that blend together to create an overall gaming experience that derives its variety not from the numerous details that go into a single attack roll, but simply from the complex interaction between a handful of separately simple systems. 

That said, I find myself continuing to engage with other types of new games, if I find the mechanics intriguing.  A few tablet games have sucked me in for extended periods.  At the moment, I'm having great fun running a co-op game of Shop Titans with my kids, my nieces, and my sister.  The mechanics start out shallow, but you end up with 6 or 7 different "game systems" that all feed off each other in an agreeable and appropriate manner.

It's hard to compare board games to computer games, because the social element can be very different, too.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Bardolph on May 20, 2020, 12:26:26 PM
Quote from: MetalDog on May 18, 2020, 05:28:24 PM
Quote from: berto on May 18, 2020, 01:46:25 PM
I started with AH Gettysburg and Tactics II c. 1962.  And did the SPI thing big time in the 1970s.

Every time the old board game Grognards start reminiscing, it's always about old Avalon Hill titles or Midway or some such.  My first wargame was Tactics II.  Good to see I wasn't the only one!   O0

Me II
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Father Ted on May 20, 2020, 04:05:49 PM
Quote from: FarAway Sooner on May 20, 2020, 01:17:10 AM


For me, an awful lot of what turns me off so many "new" games is monotony.  When I'm not gaming with friends, a huge part of my enjoyment comes from figuring out a new system.  When I come across a truly novel complex system in a package that features good game play (like AI Wars or Rome: Total War or Distant Worlds: Universe), I still find myself rising to the challenge of grocking out a new game.

But, after playing games for more than 40 years, I find it pretty easy to diagnose what's going on in a game.  I might not be able to master all the mechanics right away, but I've mastered similar mechanics so many times, I know what the journey's going to be like, and I'm just not that intrigued.


Though I wouldn't claim to be able to work out games that easily, I do think that these sentiments lie behind a lot of our lassitude towards firing up new and/or complicated games.  If it's MP I'll put up with a lot because having actual other humans in the mix tends to keep gameplay fresh.  With new SP games I do look at things like tech trees and sigh, knowing that I'll have to put thought into them, and that it's thought that I've put into many games before, for the same "fix" of progression.  Building your empire is a thrill - the first time. But whether it's Total War.Game, FoG Empires or Paradox.Game, the mechanic is broadly the same for each.

Similarly with flightsims. When all is said and done, you're just changing pixels with a (some) PC peripheral(s).  Once you've learnt to "fly" one "plane", going through all that rigmarole again just to get essentially the same experience seems a bit of an effort.  Maybe VR is a refresher here...

I guess my point is that some of the "fault" may lie with slightly stagnant game-design rather than entirely with our fading faculties.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: MengJiao on May 20, 2020, 05:02:28 PM
Quote from: Father Ted on May 20, 2020, 04:05:49 PM

Similarly with flightsims. When all is said and done, you're just changing pixels with a (some) PC peripheral(s).  Once you've learnt to "fly" one "plane", going through all that rigmarole again just to get essentially the same experience seems a bit of an effort.  Maybe VR is a refresher here...

I guess my point is that some of the "fault" may lie with slightly stagnant game-design rather than entirely with our fading faculties.

   What might be stale is what games try to present as "winning"...one nice thing about flight sims and RPG is that looking at aspects of the world as presented in the game is supposed to be part of the experience.  More purely battle-oriented games I find tend to lose track of the atmospheric side of the gamer's experience.  I like the flavored atmospheres of the games I tend to play (DCS, HLL, Winter War, War Thunder, World of Warships) because (perhaps by accident for some of these)...well...er...probably a matter of taste in some cases, I guess.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Lowenstaat on May 20, 2020, 09:06:45 PM
Quote from: MengJiao on May 20, 2020, 05:02:28 PM
Quote from: Father Ted on May 20, 2020, 04:05:49 PM

Similarly with flightsims. When all is said and done, you're just changing pixels with a (some) PC peripheral(s).  Once you've learnt to "fly" one "plane", going through all that rigmarole again just to get essentially the same experience seems a bit of an effort.  Maybe VR is a refresher here...

I guess my point is that some of the "fault" may lie with slightly stagnant game-design rather than entirely with our fading faculties.

   What might be stale is what games try to present as "winning"...one nice thing about flight sims and RPG is that looking at aspects of the world as presented in the game is supposed to be part of the experience.  More purely battle-oriented games I find tend to lose track of the atmospheric side of the gamer's experience.  I like the flavored atmospheres of the games I tend to play (DCS, HLL, Winter War, War Thunder, World of Warships) because (perhaps by accident for some of these)...well...er...probably a matter of taste in some cases, I guess.

That's my impression, too. I enjoyed games like Gunship 2000, M1 Tank Platoon, and F117 from Microprose because they put me in the position of role playing as pilot or tank commander. Rather than a 15 minute startup sequence from a checklist I just pushed the E button and started flying/driving. These were not complicated simulations. Instead they were simplified role playing simulators in which I role played a person who could turn on an aircraft/tank without me as a player really knowing how to do it. Still, I, like many of you have posted, am amazed by the higher levels of depth offered by modern games like DCS, Steel Beasts, ARMA, etc.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Toonces on May 20, 2020, 10:55:19 PM
You know, I looked for this SimHQ thread for quite a while a few years back and couldn't find it.  My Google-foo was better tonight and it only took a minute or so.

I absolutely love the forum post I copied below.  It articulates everything I've been saying for years about flight sims.  None of us minds having better graphics and more immersion.  But, what the author below suggests, and I agree with, is that above all you need to be placed in the seat of a fighter pilot...all the extraneous stuff needs to be streamlined so the player can concentrate on being put in the moment, and not get impeded by details.  To put my own personal spin on this topic, I flew P-3s and our pre-flight for an ASW mission was 3 hours.  We needed this time to pre-flight the plane, file the flight plan and get the weather, program all the buoys, and myriad other tasks that took a crew of ten 3-hours to complete.  You know, if I want to simulate doing ASW in a P-3 I don't need to actually spend 3 hours in a flight sim pre-flighting and mission planning.  That misses the major point of what it meant to take that plane to 200' and 200 knots, at night, twisting and turning hunting a quiet, elusive target cruising among civilian tankers, fishing vessels, and what not.

This really is the essence of my complaints with respect to DCS (and now BMS).  We're moving towards increasing realism at the expense of the experience, of putting you in the cockpit and distilling the sim to the things that make flying a fighter interesting.  Zerocinco really says it better than I can.

I'm reminded of the interview I heard today with Howard Stern and Jerry Seinfeld.  Howard was talking about how Seinfeld's latest material focuses on minimalism; trimming and trimming his jokes to the minimum they need.  No fluff and no extra BS.  I find myself leaning towards games with this approach.  Like I said before, Cold Waters really exemplifies this.  Freefalcon did the same for Falcon 4.0.  There was just enough realism to make you work, but not so much that you were bogged down.  I'm getting too old to be bogged.

The original post is linked below.  I copied the text and pictures over.  YAP refers to "Yankee Air Pirate" a paid download add-on for Thirdwire's Wings over Vietnam.  I never played it, but I'm sure Jarhead did at some point.

https://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3496831/a-discussion-on-the-future-of-yap-and-flt-sims#Post3496831

...

We are at a crossroads at YAP (and Rising Sun). TK has killed refueling in SF2. While he failed to get rid of helicopter flight, he can whenever he wants and we expect that is next. Without helicopters, the need to take on fuel, ground targets that die, collateral damage, realistic night missions, lighting, real AAA, busy carrier decks, cluttered airfields it's silly to us and an insult to a historian. (No, I wouldn't call that a My Humble Opinion.) Possibly, seeing our success, has acceded to developing helicopter flight and refueling himself...finally.

So going to SF2 is unlikely for YAP. Rising Sun is already SF2-capable but recent patches have caused unrealistic changes. So, we think our tenure as an uninvited guest in a fantasy world may be drawing to a close. We may provide models for a time because we have an awful lot as yet unrevealed that may be of interest.

Therefore we want to have a discussion with you...the players. A shopping list? Okay. An opportunity to vent the politics of the denizens of the forums? No way. Things are happening and they will effect you, your investments in entertainment and your future choices. We might be able to do something about it but only if the rewards exceed the sacrifice.

We will do it with pics, if you don't mind.

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsimhq.com%2Fforum%2Ffiles%2Fusergals%2F2012%2F01%2Ffull-4804-25855-fltsim.jpg&hash=3c7456b388b4f862f15791eb12dfcda5c70ad7fc)


This first is cut from an ad you have seen running. Their major contribution is that they have an ad budget and they are reaching out beyond those of us here to bring in more "players". You can fly with a mouse or a finger in 5-minutes. Some will enter our world and discover or demand better things. In that respect, they are certainly more important than we are and are doing us a service.

As you can see, this sim is not the best at anything really. This is not to condemn their attempt but to point out that nobody can do it all since WE are playing with YOUR computer. And maybe we are also pointing out that what people are demanding are possibly the wrong things.

Saigon with a moonscape in the background.

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsimhq.com%2Fforum%2Ffiles%2Fusergals%2F2012%2F01%2Ffull-4804-25860-saigon.jpg&hash=a6563d1c408097b0f58e61657def4d74766be922)

Dogpatch: our standard village.

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsimhq.com%2Fforum%2Ffiles%2Fusergals%2F2012%2F01%2Ffull-4804-25861-dogpatch2.jpg&hash=01e6b281e5138b11aaaf82ebe191396a907ea4eb)

Plei Mei Special Forces Camp using trees and a special tile to subtract un-reality.

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IL-2 does terrific cockpits. Jet Thunder was doing good seas. We think we use whatever tricks we have to do better villages (ie. covering the crappy ground tiles with enough trees and houses to make it look real at high speed.) Check Paris in their ad. They are doing the same thing and, like us, are very carefully posing the shot.

Thirdwire does good shadows...now.

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We know more about what really goes on and it shows. For instance, that F-16 being towed by an M-35!...and not a shadow to complicate the scene with realism. You have to wonder if they were drawing a horse race if the horses would have jockeys. That's why YAP developed all we did. We know what is missing from the picture even if all the players don't.

What follows are some pictures from real life.

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The above is a picture of the last bombs I dropped. That's what you see on downwind. You see a lot more on final but you see it at 450 knots and you are not looking for songbirds on the wires. You look for what you need to see and your mind blurs the rest. Game designers do not know that. They are busy drawing shoes on rudder pedals. You do not look at all your instruments. You look for flashes and those little gray zip lines made by rounds passing by. What you KNOW is that all those little tin roofs are homes and people and you just missed the target by half a football field and that was good enough. We think it is important in a war simulation to know you are killing people and breaking things. It is both exciting and horrible...but it's real.


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The water pictures. The blue one is at about 8000 or 9000 feet. I am looking for Lead, not waves. The gray one was taken as a passenger (hitch-hiking home to Danang after some aviation misadventure) in a C-123 grinding up the coast at a zippy 140 knots. Even as a passenger, you see a lot more in a photograph viewed afterward than you do in flight.

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And for you rivet counters. You can see detail on the belly of the T-38's in this photo but the pilot of the airplane that was out of position taking this shot did not. If you stop long enough to see them, you will again be out of position. They are pulling about 5 G's, at about 12000 feet at around 300 knots. No time to be criticizing the art work.

Bonus: This is the landing of the last flight of Deuces in Southeast Asia. They didn't do much but they were sure pretty.

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsimhq.com%2Fforum%2Ffiles%2Fusergals%2F2012%2F01%2Ffull-4804-25868-image_0254.jpg&hash=23fe8d26d63c02c01eecb9e4ea673ce1875d16c8)

YAP's angle was to provide realism through situation. The player knew we were leveling with them and that we had placed them as accurately as we could in the moment...same for Rising Sun. IL-2 leans on computer memory to provide great artwork. X-Plane touts being able to make that plastic stick and LED screen behave like an airplane...certainly they do it better than we do. But aerial warfare is becoming..."different"...now.

Now we have to ask: What do you want? Where do you want the genre to go? What experiences do you want to simulate? Do you like to look at landing gear detail? Or do you want to wander around on the ground looking at tire treads? Do you want repetition and reward? Or do you want to have something to lose if you do not perform? Do you want to fly...I mean have to control the simulation...at the level of a pilot as in YAP or do you want to roll the mouse and look out the window?

The great joy of flying as a passenger is looking around and seeing little things. The pilot is not doing that. WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO?
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Lowenstaat on May 21, 2020, 01:06:40 AM
Quote from: Toonces on May 20, 2020, 10:55:19 PM
We're moving towards increasing realism at the expense of the experience...

Well stated, Toonces. That's the idea I was trying to express, too. I appreciate the increased technical realism of modern simulations, but I really want the experience of a good tactical, operational, and/or strategic role playing simulator, something with the graphic fidelity of a modern/combat flight sim or a new flashy FPS shooter, but with the flight mechanics, character immersion, and dynamic campaign progress of the old MicroProse games.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Tripoli on May 21, 2020, 08:10:29 AM
Quote from: Toonces on May 20, 2020, 10:55:19 PM

...
This really is the essence of my complaints with respect to DCS (and now BMS).  We're moving towards increasing realism at the expense of the experience, of putting you in the cockpit and distilling the sim to the things that make flying a fighter interesting.  Zerocinco really says it better than I can.
...

Toonces-At the risk of sounding like a Wings over Flanders Field fan boy, you might want to give them a look if you haven't.  It has a very immersive campaign, but you are flying very basic (and somewhat unreliable) aircraft, so it might scratch the aviation itch you have.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Toonces on May 21, 2020, 09:28:26 AM
^ Thanks Tripoli.  I do have WOFF and I'm a huge fan.  I've found it is my go-to flight sim lately for the reasons you stated.  There's something very soothing about flying a plane that really doesn't have a large learning curve, and dogfighting is infinitely more fun than plucking targets BVR. 

We really need a new Korean War flight sim.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Dammit Carl! on May 21, 2020, 09:52:01 AM
Quote from: Toonces on May 21, 2020, 09:28:26 AM
We really need a new Korean War flight sim.

Amen.  Mig Alley was a hoot (fondly recall making my Shooting Star a million dollar lawn dart after pulling too many Gs coming out of a dive on a NK train and getting rid of those pesky wings).

Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Tripoli on May 21, 2020, 10:05:37 AM
Quote from: Dammit Carl! on May 21, 2020, 09:52:01 AM
Quote from: Toonces on May 21, 2020, 09:28:26 AM
We really need a new Korean War flight sim.

Amen.  Mig Alley was a hoot (fondly recall making my Shooting Star a million dollar lawn dart after pulling too many Gs coming out of a dive on a NK train and getting rid of those pesky wings).

I agree-MiG Alley was great.  Really needs to be re-issued.  Toonces-another idea: Try flying A2A's Piper Cub.  Very relaxing going VFR at 1500 feet ant 63 knots.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Toonces on May 21, 2020, 07:51:06 PM
For quite a while I was pretty heavy into FSX and actually was doing virtual airline routes with Virtual Delta...with the PMDG 737!  I don't know why, but somehow that was very relaxing. 

I also spent some time with Air Hauler and it was the same thing.  Firing up a little prop plane and flying cargo around...maybe a threat to Maverick but to me it's a bit of paradise.

I'm in a good gaming space.  I have enough to probably last me the rest of my life if I wanted.  I think what really has set me off lately is the newest iteration of BMS.  I posted about that before.  They just had to keep adding layers of complexity, and their last step really killed the fun (for me).  Most people love it; I'm a lone wolf on this one.  IMO, Freefalcon was the apogee of the Falcon 4.0 mod franchise.  It added just enough to be hugely entertaining without being overwhelming.  When I talk combat sim sweet spots, that was it.  Frankly I'd still play it and bail on BMS but FF was never all that stable and it simply won't run reliably on Win10.  It's a real bummer for me, because I could have amused myself forever with that last iteration.

Ah well...it's all good.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Gusington on May 21, 2020, 07:52:34 PM
Cargo plane full of rubber dog shit out of Hong Kong DLC?
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Toonces on May 21, 2020, 10:52:59 PM
I know you're not going to believe this, but here goes:

When I was a civilian before I joined the Navy, I was totally on board with that sentiment.  At some point, when it was clear I wasn't going to get a jet assignment, and the rest of the folks in my cohort and I started talking about it, it was funny how the attitude changed.  Short version: a couple of months before I was up to select a platform, the Navy halted jet assecions due to a backlog (long story) so everyone was going props or helos.  So we talked about what was better: E-2 Hawkeye or C-2 COD?  Or P-3 Orion?  And what quickly became apparent to most was that, if you wanted to go E-2/C-2 pipeline, curiously the C-2 was the more in demand platform!  The idea was, you got all the benefits of being a carrier qualified hook, but then also got all the benefits of being land-based with the booze, hookers, and per-diem.  It was win-win!

Rubber plane of dog shit out of Hong Kong?  Fuckin' sign me up so I can take those hours right to Southwest or Jet Blue and make double my salary for half the bullshit!  Yeah, we all realized that the dog shit shuttle was about the best deal in the Navy, LOL.

I wanted to kill submarines so I went P-3s...but that's a whole other story.  I'd jump at a chance to fly that dog shit route now, though.   :dreamer:
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Toonces on May 21, 2020, 11:07:43 PM
I'm pretty sure this picture is in the Grogheads article I wrote.  Regardless...

Toonces with ole 763 somewhere in the Persian Gulf circa 2001.

Man alive, what a fucking hassle this is with the demise of Photobucket.   >:(

Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: MOS:96B2P on May 22, 2020, 07:51:15 AM
Quote from: Toonces on May 21, 2020, 11:07:43 PM

Toonces with ole 763 somewhere in the Persian Gulf circa 2001.


Very cool photo.  Did you have a call sign when you flew? 

I replaced my photobucket with Imgur.  Imgur is free and IMO works just as well as photobucket did. 
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Grim.Reaper on May 22, 2020, 08:15:05 AM
Quote from: MOS:96B2P on May 22, 2020, 07:51:15 AM
Quote from: Toonces on May 21, 2020, 11:07:43 PM

Toonces with ole 763 somewhere in the Persian Gulf circa 2001.


Very cool photo.  Did you have a call sign when you flew? 

I replaced my photobucket with Imgur.  Imgur is free and IMO works just as well as photobucket did.

+1 Been using Imgur ever since Photobucket changed.....
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Gusington on May 22, 2020, 09:48:19 AM
Yeah IMGUR is the way to go.

Toonces has many call signs :)
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Sir Slash on May 22, 2020, 11:02:50 AM
So how much Rubber Dog Shit can that big plane hold Toonces? I'll bet it's a lot. And the great thing about the rubber version of Dog Shit is the smell is so much better. Thank You for your service to our country BTW.  O0
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Toonces on May 22, 2020, 06:13:14 PM
LOL, man I must have been in a seriously happy place last night if I was posting pictures of myself.

My callsign was "Toonces" which more or less rhymes with my last name...or refers to my ability to drive an airplane.   8)

A fully loaded P-3 was just over 139,000 pounds.  That's a lot of bullshit.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Gusington on May 22, 2020, 06:15:31 PM
Your call sign was actually Toonces?? That is so great I can barely contain myself!
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Toonces on May 22, 2020, 08:58:03 PM
Yep.  I started out as "Looney Tunes" then they shortened to "Tunes" and then someone realized that was like the Saturday Night Live cat and switched it to "Toonces."  Toonces ended up sticking. 

Some of the callsigns of the folks I work with:

Gunny
Spike
Flesh
Gerbil
Commandant
Bogey

I actually don't even know Gerbil's real name LOL.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Gusington on May 23, 2020, 08:17:42 AM
Gerbil - now that's a terrible callsign.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Sir Slash on May 23, 2020, 08:43:31 AM
That is pretty bad. Maybe Mousedick might be worse but not by much.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Gusington on May 23, 2020, 12:57:34 PM
I had a very good friend we used to call Shrimp Dick (he passed away 5 years ago RIP) - I'll leave the rest up to your collective imaginations.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Vintage Dude on May 23, 2020, 04:49:00 PM
This thread took a WEIRD turn.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Gusington on May 23, 2020, 05:08:16 PM
 :-"
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Yskonyn on May 23, 2020, 06:19:31 PM
My name translates to 'Crack' in english, so the first captain I flew with when I was based in Liverpool wanted to confirm with me if I really wanted to be introduced like this?  :2funny:
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Gusington on May 23, 2020, 06:26:00 PM
Haha!!
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Toonces on May 23, 2020, 06:31:35 PM
We stayed on topic for almost 6 pages.  That's a good run for Grogheads!
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Martok on May 23, 2020, 07:27:53 PM
^  I'd call that a flat-out miracle!  ;D 




Quote from: Vintage Dude on May 23, 2020, 04:49:00 PM
This thread took a WEIRD turn.
Eh, par for the course.  If threads around here *don't* take a weird turn, something has gone wrong.  :P 
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: SirAndrewD on May 23, 2020, 08:25:40 PM
Quote from: Martok on May 23, 2020, 07:27:53 PM
Eh, par for the course.  If threads around here *don't* take a weird turn, something has gone wrong.  :P

You called?

May I tickle anyone's dongle tonight?
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Sir Slash on May 23, 2020, 09:48:18 PM
Yeah, it's kinda like watching NASCAR around here.  You know sooner or later somebody's gonna do something to cause a complete multi-car smash-up to occur. Just don't when.  ::)
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Vintage Dude on May 23, 2020, 10:32:41 PM
Usually, the threads that last the longest are the ones that go off-topic. It's fun to go back and see the exact post that took it off topic. Also, it's interesting to see how far the thread wanders off of the original topic. Some just wander off a little and others get to a point where the original topic is unrecognizable.
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Sir Slash on May 24, 2020, 10:23:43 PM
Some wander off-topic, then some go there Warp 8. Meanwhile, back to Yskonyn's Crack...
Title: Re: Reflections of a grumpy, middle-aged gamer
Post by: Yskonyn on May 25, 2020, 12:24:58 AM
 :2funny: