Introducing TASK FORCE ADMIRAL Vol.1: American Carrier Battles

[hellfish6]

That coffee mug needs about three more years' worth of stains on the inside. Stains add flavor!

[steve58]

I can envision repelling boarders with a heavy coffee mug, not so much with a...teacup :-\.

[The_Admiral]

A couple of things about coffee and the US Navy:
1) a Navy coffee mug weighs 15.2 oz, unloaded.  It has been used in combat as a weapon. In an encounter with the U-66 on May 5, 1944 the USS BUCKLEY (DE 51) rammed the submarine.  From Theodore Roscoe, "US Destroyer Operations in WWII", pg. 306-07:

"The collision sent BUCKLEY's bow riding high over the U-boat's deck...Scrambling out of the hatches and mounting the conning tower [the U-boat crew] let fly with a fusillade of small-arms and rifle fire...And then the destroyermen were astounded to see the submariners clambering up the DE's bow, coming hand over fist in a squalling assault to board.
STAND BY TO REPEL BOARDERS!
   Above the tumult and shouting, the crackle of pistol fire, the din and clang, that command seemed to linger in the gunsmoke as an echo from the past...The infuriated destroyermen hurled empty shell-cases, coffee mugs, spitkits, anything and everything that could serve as missiles...."

2)  Samuel Eliot Morison famously said: "The Navy could probably win a war without coffee but it wouldn't like to try."
3) I routinely drank 18 cups of coffee a day when at sea.  And that wasn't atypical.

Uhuh thanks for the intel Steve, you're really the right guy for the job 
On our end, our research delivered us with these sad scenes over and over again (doesn't it paint Halsey as a much more delicate man in some way?):





But if mugs were indeed in actual circulation, I guess there shall be room for both 

[Tripoli]

I would venture to guess that the first photo is a conference.  The white tablecloth and the dishes of creamer show that this is a more formal setting   My guess is that this photo wasn't taken at sea. Same with the second photo.  This appears to be the Admiral's cabin.  More informal than the first, but probably not taken at sea, but in port, as evidence by the presence of VADM McCain.  In my experience, the wardroom did have more traditional china cups with saucers for formal occasions.   However, they generally not used in the operational spaces of the ships, and certainly not underway, for the following reasons:

1) Space.  A cup and saucer has a diameter of approx. 63 mm, or a footprint of 195 mm2.  A navy mug has a diameter of approx. 30 mm, with a footprint of 94 mm2.  With space in a CIC or bridge being a premium, and the space around a chart table being particularly valuable, a smaller footprint is better.

2) Weight and stability.  The Navy mug is a more stable platform for underway use than a teacup and saucer.  Weighing in at slightly under 1 pound, it has more inertia than a teacup to resist the motion the pitching and rolling of a vessel when underway.   Further, although the tea cup/saucer has a much larger footprint, only about 95 mm2 of the saucer is actually in contact with the table surface, so its resistance to sliding is is at best, no better than the mug.  In fact, it is possibly worse, because most navy mugs are slightly rougher/ununglazed of the bottom of the mug to create a rougher, more slide resistant surface than a standard saucer.

3) Resistance to battle damage-A navy mug has an 7mm thick ceramic armor belt.  The things are damn near indestructible under normal operating conditions.  ;)

In summary, while I don't discount the accuracy of your images, I suspect that the china was not used in combat conditions.   :)   

[Tripoli]

ANNND No sooner do I write my opus on why no self-respecting USN officer would use a tea cup while underway, than I come across this photo of the USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) doing some type of underway evolution.  My guess is that they are anchoring or getting underway from anchor.  the photo date is 21 July 1943.



If you look at the chart table, you can see two tea cups and saucers.  The cups are upside down, and the saucers appear to be placed on possible napkins.  However, I'm not entirely sure I'm going to back off my statement opinion that no self respecting USN officer would go into battle with a tea cup.  First, the portrayed evolution is clearly occurring in calm waters, likely a harbor, so ship's motion is not much of a factor.  Second, there is a lot of officers, some fairly senior.  My suspicion is that this is a sea and anchor detail getting underway, and that everyone has piled onto the bridge wing directly from the pre-sea and anchor briefing (where the tea cups may have been used). Third, this is on the USS NEW JERSEY, a very large battleship.  In other words, a very stable ship.  DD's, CAs, and (possibly) the CV5 class  would not have been as stable.

[bobarossa]

Just to continue the technical discussion, I think the cups would have a much lower center of gravity than the mug.  And the saucer would catch spills so those nice maps wouldn't get coffee stains. 

Also 30 mm seems way to narrow for a saucer footprint (that's only 1.2", my mother's teacups measure 2").  And your calculation of surface area appears to by using (pi)D which is the formula for circumference. 
And then there is this which I found at https://www.ronnoco.com/blogs/news/the-coffee-mug-a-history 

World War II and The Victor Mug

What today's coffee drinkers think of as the "classic" or "traditional" coffee mug came on the scene in 1945. It was a product of the Victor Insulator Company, the oldest insulator business in North America. The war overseas had a crucial effect on the design and eventual popularity of the mug—built to military specifications—its thick walls added to its insulating properties, and its extra weight helped it survive falls and avoid tipping while aboard ship. Along the way, Victor also pioneered a unique "non-slip" bottom surface, achieved during manufacturing by dragging the underside of the mug across a wet rubber mat before being fired in a kiln at 2,250 degrees Fahrenheit for 72 hours. This resulted in a rougher base that minimized sliding, which quickly became an essential feature in beverage containers. Hot beverage drinkers of all kinds embraced its heavy-duty style, and the Victor—popularly known as the "Diner Coffee Mug"—eventually became as iconic in America as the glass Coca-Cola bottle.

[The_Admiral]

...

Yes we came up with the same conclusions as you do - that's why we went for a mug initially  ^-^
But we're still hunting for a picture of this standard issue coffee mug, and it is unnerving how it is escaping our research so far.

First picture is naturally a conference - but you would be surprised (as much as I was)! Apparently it's taken aboard USS Nassau while at anchor in Noumea in Dec 1942 (not even the command ship). Nassau wasn't exactly what I'd call the most stable platform out there, that's for sure... 
https://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=24755

The picture with McCain is taken aboard BB-62 (as most Halsey's late war pictures are anyway) and indeed that's most probably the Admiral's cabin. The picture was taken at sea during transit.
Look at this for instance (USS New Jersey again, flag officer conference room)
https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/nh-series/80-G-471000/80-G-471111.html
https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/nh-series/80-G-471000/80-G-471112.html
Darn, the later the war, the more the goddam ashtray looks like a mug - but the ominous teacup is still there!

Now, here the man with a glass... WILLIAM, Y U NO LIKE MUG!  :hide:
https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/nh-series/80-G-470000/80-G-470894.html

And here's Carney, his CoS (at least it gives a super good reference for the teacup...)
https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/nh-series/80-G-471000/80-G-471139.html

Been trying to look for some sort of cup in all the plot room or CIC pics I could come across, but no luck so far. 
These iron men... I am in front of my computer right now and I can't imagine myself without my coffee mug just by the mouse. War warrants sacrifices indeed! Cruel seas... :dreamer:

[The_Admiral]

And then there is this which I found at https://www.ronnoco.com/blogs/news/the-coffee-mug-a-history 

World War II and The Victor Mug

What today's coffee drinkers think of as the "classic" or "traditional" coffee mug came on the scene in 1945.

Oh well. A time paradox would certainly explain this  O0 :))

[The_Admiral]

I still have a few things to share if you are not tired of the topic just yet

First, as a last reference to the teacup, allow me to post as a secondary source this shot from the 1949 film Task Force. Usually, as a movie you might consider that it is not the most reliable source on Earth - but still, that one was pretty much an ode to the Navy that benefited from tremendous technical assistance. In every single frame there's the feeling that there was a technical advisor making sure that what was being said or done was as realistic as possible, and I cannot but feel that it is precisely what happens for instance in this flag plot scene. It is all the more convincing considering that the natural mistake would be to put a mug in there as the year of filming is actually 1949, while the action is supposed to take place in 1942. Sip that, Gary Cooper!



Regarding everything that isn't a teacup - nor a mug - we have a few examples of other stuff lying around.
First, Mitscher apparently used a canteen or some sort of steel pot. But perhaps it was simply the pot where you'd put the pencils and other map tools. Hard to say.



Now, there is, in many places, this strange tubular thing that you come across many pictures in the command & control quarters of CV-10. What is that? A makeshift ashtray? A thermos? Again, the pen tray? Any clue? See how it seems to be pretty freaking everywhere



Same spot, another angle


Then a smaller one here


Same as this one:


And finally something else, again (on the right - this one seems legit, but at the same time there's hardly any room to put anything on this table!)


The plot thickens...  :hide:

[Tripoli]

Just to continue the technical discussion, I think the cups would have a much lower center of gravity than the mug.  And the saucer would catch spills so those nice maps wouldn't get coffee stains. 

Also 30 mm seems way to narrow for a saucer footprint (that's only 1.2", my mother's teacups measure 2").  And your calculation of surface area appears to by using (pi)D which is the formula for circumference. 
And then there is this which I found at https://www.ronnoco.com/blogs/news/the-coffee-mug-a-history 

World War II and The Victor Mug

What today's coffee drinkers think of as the "classic" or "traditional" coffee mug came on the scene in 1945. It was a product of the Victor Insulator Company, the oldest insulator business in North America. The war overseas had a crucial effect on the design and eventual popularity of the mug—built to military specifications—its thick walls added to its insulating properties, and its extra weight helped it survive falls and avoid tipping while aboard ship. Along the way, Victor also pioneered a unique "non-slip" bottom surface, achieved during manufacturing by dragging the underside of the mug across a wet rubber mat before being fired in a kiln at 2,250 degrees Fahrenheit for 72 hours. This resulted in a rougher base that minimized sliding, which quickly became an essential feature in beverage containers. Hot beverage drinkers of all kinds embraced its heavy-duty style, and the Victor—popularly known as the "Diner Coffee Mug"—eventually became as iconic in America as the glass Coca-Cola bottle.

This is actually a pretty illuminating discussion.  First, as a Navy vet, the subject of coffee is near and dear to my heart.  Second, the thought and design that goes into making something as simple as a coffee mug so utilitarian on board a ship is itself somewhat fascinating.  Regarding your point about the center of gravity-Yep, you are correct that the center of gravity of the cup would be lower than the mug.  However, because the cup has a smaller base, and flares out, the distribution of weight will be higher in the cup as opposed to the more column-type shape of the mug, making the cup more unstable, especially if jostled in the crowded conditions typical of bridges and CICs .  I took the measurements for the base of the cup from some we had in the house, but they weren't navy-issue, so possibly the navy cups had a larger base.  (However, look at the one being held by Gary Cooper in the image posted by The_Admiral. The base of that cup looks to be about the same as the width of 2 of Cooper's middle fingers, which is typically around 1.3 inches or so).  The mug measurements are from some USN mugs I have to laying around to remind me of my mis-spent youth.   :) 

You are of course, correct about my surface area calculation.  I used the formula for diameter instead of surface area.  My ensign-mistake was due to not having enough coffee before I started typing ;)  With that said, I think my point that the mug is more stable remains valid.  My math?  Notsomuch..... :-[

That is interesting that "The Victory" coffee mug was developed in 1945.  That certainly hurts my theory that no self-respecting navy officer would drink coffee out of a tea cup while at sea.  Possibly mugs that weren't Victory mugs were used?  The Victory mug (by the way, I didn't know that was what it was called)  does have some unique design features, in particular the thickness and the rough bottom.  I will have to do more research.

[Toonces]

I think ashtray is a good guess.  At first I was thinking pen/pencil holder, but in the second picture there is a pen stuck in holder shown in addition to the steel tube thingy.  Given the prevalence of smoking back then, ashtray makes sense.  It almost looks like a sawed-off shell casing.

Anyway, I'll take a picture of my coffee mug Monday at work.  It's not a true "Navy mug" like you guys are discussing - I've never seen one of those - but it's got a nice base of "flavor" on the inside.   :)

[Tripoli]

I still have a few things to share if you are not tired of the topic just yet

First, as a last reference to the teacup, allow me to post as a secondary source this shot from the 1949 film Task Force. Usually, as a movie you might consider that it is not the most reliable source on Earth - but still, that one was pretty much an ode to the Navy that benefited from tremendous technical assistance. In every single frame there's the feeling that there was a technical advisor making sure that what was being said or done was as realistic as possible, and I cannot but feel that it is precisely what happens for instance in this flag plot scene. It is all the more convincing considering that the natural mistake would be to put a mug in there as the year of filming is actually 1949, while the action is supposed to take place in 1942. Sip that, Gary Cooper!

I agree, that a movie made in 1949 very well may have technical details such as this correct.  I may have to look at some "Victory at Sea" footage to see if I can come up with something.  You could have made some serious money from me had we made a bet before we started this discussion.  As far as some of the miscellaneous cup-like objects floating around:  I suspect that some of this is "battle expedient" type stuff.  A CIC requires a large number of pencils, grease pencils, dividers, rulers, etc. and containers to hold them in so they are readily available and don't get lost.  It looks like some of these items are things the sailors may have re-purposed for this role. The can like item you pointed out in this image, appears to be such an item, as one is suspended from the side of the table.  Possibly it is a 3" shell casing, cut down by the metal shop for use as a pen holder?  That would be a good use, as the heavier bottom of a shell casing would make it less likely to tip over.  The suspended one appears to have a label that may read "Flag [Plot]", likely a futile effort on the part of a sailor to prevent such a nice, attractive, shiny custom-made piece of gear from becoming someone's souvenir.    ;D  One other thought-The ink-type bottle may be rubber cement.  I seem to recall seeing such bottles back in my elementary school days.  Possibly they used it to tack down their charts without damaging them.  When I was on active duty we were using masking or painter's (blue) tape.


 

Regarding everything that isn't a teacup - nor a mug - we have a few examples of other stuff lying around.
First, Mitscher apparently used a canteen or some sort of steel pot. But perhaps it was simply the pot where you'd put the pencils and other map tools. Hard to say.

That may be a canteen top.  It has the same general shape.  Possibly painted white?  That may be because it wasn't used for drinking, but used for holding pencils, etc in.  Alternatively, it may have been painted so everyone knew it belonged to a particular person.  For awhile, I used a 7-11 travel mug because no one else in CIC had one, so it was readily identifiable as mine.

Now, there is, in many places, this strange tubular thing that you come across many pictures in the command & control quarters of CV-10. What is that? A makeshift ashtray? A thermos? Again, the pen tray? Any clue? See how it seems to be pretty freaking everywhere

I'm going to guess that is a makeshift pencil holder.  Its tall enough you wouldn't want to put liquids in it, as it would tip over.  It is a good size to hold pencils.  Possibly a soda-type can with the lid cut off.  Possibly taped along the sides for greater grip/traction.  The OS's/QM's on my first ship did similar stuff.  It probably isn't an ashtray,  (although it could be) as the Navy supplied those.  ALso, it is too tall to be a good ashtray, as the cigarettes would fall inside if you let go of them.  It could also be a spittoon made out of a beverage can, although I doubt it would be in the image if that is what it is. 

And finally something else, again (on the right - this one seems legit, but at the same time there's hardly any room to put anything on this table!)


The plot thickens...  :hide:

The last one looks like a cut-down shell casing.  It seems to have a lip on the bottom.  Possibly to hold grease pencils to use with the radar screen, or as an ashtray, as there doesn't appear to be an ashtray at the station.  However, it still looks to be too high to be a good ashtray.  It is a little short for a pencil holder, but as crowded as that station is (a reflection of more equipment being fit into spaces not designed to hold them, as radar/CIC doctrine evolved), it may have been useful for the operator to use smaller "stubs" of pencils, to avoid knocking things over.  For instance, that curtain at the station would be a source of frustration to the operator, as it would likely knock over a regular sized pencil container every time it was drawn open or closed.

[Sir Slash]

Is that, 'Battleship' those two guys were playing?  :timeout:

[The_Admiral]

All right, thanks Tripoli - thanks to you I will have some content for Twitter next week, for sure ^^

[fran]

Apologies if already asked. Would we get a demo for this game? Would not consider purchasing without trying first.