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History, Reference, Research, and GrogTalk => Military (and other) History => Topic started by: steve58 on November 03, 2012, 03:11:58 PM

Title: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: steve58 on November 03, 2012, 03:11:58 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/11/02/skeleton-carrier-pigeon-found-in-uk-chimney-still-attached-to-mysterious-ww2/?intcmp=obnetwork

I sure hope they release the msg after they decode it...
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: Staggerwing on November 03, 2012, 03:18:35 PM
Maybe the message said "Bring lots and lots of hedge clippers."
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: undercovergeek on November 03, 2012, 03:21:28 PM
it says - 'your tea's ready Bob'
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: steve58 on November 03, 2012, 03:30:40 PM
Quote from: undercovergeek on November 03, 2012, 03:21:28 PM
it says - 'your tea's ready Bob'

If the pigeon was coming from France, I doubt the Frogs would want tea, especially English tea... :P 
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: undercovergeek on November 03, 2012, 03:34:21 PM
Quote from: steve58 on November 03, 2012, 03:30:40 PM
Quote from: undercovergeek on November 03, 2012, 03:21:28 PM
it says - 'your tea's ready Bob'

If the pigeon was coming from France, I doubt the Frogs would want tea, especially English tea... :P

aaah, apologies, tea is an evening meal for most people born north of Derby in the UK, south of there its Dinner, but in the proper/correct part of the country its tea
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: LongBlade on November 03, 2012, 05:51:40 PM
Quote from: Staggerwing on November 03, 2012, 03:18:35 PM
Maybe the message said "Bring lots and lots of hedge clippers."

Bingo.

That or "Send more Shermans! The Krauts are going through them like hot Wiener Schnitzel!"
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: bob48 on November 03, 2012, 06:16:50 PM
Quote from: undercovergeek on November 03, 2012, 03:21:28 PM
it says - 'your tea's ready Bob'

Cheeky sod - it actually said ' get chimney sweeper'  :)
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: Gusington on November 04, 2012, 11:24:45 AM
I didn't know they still used pigeons in WWII.
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: besilarius on November 04, 2012, 04:22:05 PM
Think I recall reading in books like Chester Wilmot's, The Struggle for Europe, that english paras often had backup carrier pigeons.
Their radios were not so reliable, and were in very short supply, so this gave them a backup.
Didn't the radios at the Bridge Too Far, have bad batteries which complicated the efforts of XXX Corps to aid, and give artillery support?
Think it contributed significantly to the woes of 1st Airborne Division.
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: bob48 on November 05, 2012, 02:08:36 PM
^ Yep - having read 'A Magnificent Disaster' not too long ago, it did pont to radio failures playing an adverse part in events.
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: steve58 on November 07, 2012, 08:50:53 AM
Here's an expanded story, but still no decoded msg.

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2012/11/06/coded-wwii-message-found-on-pigeon-remains/?intcmp=trending

If they found this in 1982, wonder why its just now making the news...
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: LongBlade on November 07, 2012, 09:23:05 AM
Quote from: steve58 on November 07, 2012, 08:50:53 AM
Here's an expanded story, but still no decoded msg.

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2012/11/06/coded-wwii-message-found-on-pigeon-remains/?intcmp=trending

If they found this in 1982, wonder why its just now making the news...

It could be that he found it in 82 but only recently realized it was carrying a message from WWII.

I wish those codebreakers luck. Hopefully they still have the key to that message. I'd love to know what it says.
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: Longdan on November 12, 2012, 11:28:14 AM
"....redacted..so then just give us the go ahead old chap and the war will be over by Friday."
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: LongBlade on November 23, 2012, 05:51:40 PM
No surprise here: they're still stumped. http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/23/world/europe/uk-wwii-pigeon-mystery/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

IIRC those codes were unbreakable without a key and used a double key system.
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: Staggerwing on November 23, 2012, 06:22:27 PM
Wonder if it was a discarding key system? After you sent a message you destroyed the key, which was on a pad of tear-off sheets. IIRC some of the Soviet encrypted messages became compromised after their signals officers got lazy and used the same page over and over instead of burning it and getting a new one each time.
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: LongBlade on November 23, 2012, 07:34:11 PM
I'm guessing it's the discarded key. In which case they'll need a super computer to figure it out and a lot of time.
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: Longdan on November 23, 2012, 11:38:20 PM
Alan Turing coulda figgered it out. 
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: Staggerwing on November 23, 2012, 11:48:19 PM
Turing coulda figured out a lotta stuff. We could use him (again) right about now...
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: eyebiter on November 23, 2012, 11:58:30 PM
CNN posted a picture of the message.  Comments section mentioned it's likely encrypted using a 1 time pad.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/23/world/europe/uk-wwii-pigeon-mystery/?hpt=hp_c1

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.cdn.turner.com%2Fcnn%2Fdam%2Fassets%2F121123084836-wwii-pigeon-message-story-top.jpg&hash=d83d15432882e5f21897b0bb333dc3e664130a4f)


Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: Smuckatelli on November 24, 2012, 09:26:09 AM
That came from a one time pad, there is no way to get it decoded. I really hated using those pads, major pain in the rearend. Took a good 15-20 minutes to code it, it was only good for one time use and if you were reporting on a fluid situation....by the time it was decoded you could have missed the event.
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: GDS_Starfury on November 24, 2012, 12:38:22 PM
I already decoded it.
it was from a Canadian unit at Dieppe.
the message simply reads: thanks Britian and f*** you!
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: bob48 on November 24, 2012, 02:25:35 PM
^Ouch!
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: GDS_Starfury on November 24, 2012, 03:01:49 PM
go big or go home.   8)
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: bob48 on November 24, 2012, 04:03:57 PM
Let he who hath never sinned throw the first stone! ;)
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: GDS_Starfury on November 25, 2012, 01:01:44 AM
define sin?
cause all those chicks said it was ok.
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: Longdan on November 25, 2012, 02:18:20 AM
They were your sisters.  Was sin.
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: GDS_Starfury on November 25, 2012, 03:11:26 AM
I have no sisters.
though it might have been your mom and her sister.
milfs need a good time to.  dont judge.
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: Longdan on November 25, 2012, 05:10:52 AM
Not my fault you kilt your sisters so they wouldn't talk.
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: Smuckatelli on November 25, 2012, 08:08:51 PM
Time for a one time pad seastory.

So when the Regiment deployed the snipers would detach from them and attach to 3rd Recon Bn. My 4 teams combined with Recon would give the regiment 16 recon teams, 4 with snipers. Since I fell under the S-2 I would checked out enough AKACs to cover all 16 teams. All of our radios had krypto gear, UHF, HF, & VHF, the other wing of our barracks was the comm shop. So before we got on ship for Team Spirit 89 I checked out all of the radio gear for my platoon. Once we got on ship I found out that the comm Sergeant from 3rd Recon forgot to bring the company's krypto gear.....the 12 teams would have to communicate in the open except for the AKACs.

3rd Recon's solution....the one time pad. Each team was issued one pad and the COC had the other. This was going to be my last operation before I PCS'd out of Okinawa after four & a half years. I put my replacement in an AO that I thought for sure would see activity. So we inserted on D-2...all 16 teams. We laid our sensor strings, put up the Xrays and patrolled to our AOs.

I really thought that I was going to a dead zone, initially I was supposed to be at 3rd Recon's COC but we had to leave one of our bubba's back in Oki because of the mumps. So we got to our area after sundown, established a watch and waited for the sun to come up. Around 13:00 the next day 3/7 (aggressors) decided to set up their COC about 1500 meters below us in the valley. We could clearly see the Bn Commander, had a good target package on him.

In order to get confirmation for a kill while in a training exercise you have to coordinate with the umpires. Get within 600-1000 yards and fire a grenade launching blank at your target and report who and what the target was doing when you took the shot. Our umpires would by coordinating with the target umpires.....it was a pain but at least there was confirmation once you sent all of the data back.

So....I see the badguy daddy, I roughly had a little over 4 hours before the sky 6 heat tab would be setting. I called Recon COC and requested to go covered straight to the Regiment S-2 to get the coordination monster going. They came back and denied my request and told me to use the one time pad. So I spent the next 20 minutes encrypting the coordinating instructions. I sent the message via the DCT, waited 30 minutes to get confirmation. I called to ask the status and they came back with "send again". So instead of taking another hour to get the message sent, receive, and reply....I just said #%&^ that and went covered to the Regimental S-2. For the next 3 hours we communicated that way, I was credited with taking out the Bn CO on D-Day..... Life was good. Recon was pissed.

About 2 days later the same type of event happened again. The badguys moved their artillery about 20 clicks right in front of us. We were in the mountains and had observation of both a north-south & east-west valley (ROK). Once they set up, we off set from one of our IPs and ran CAS on the artillery. We were supposed to be uncovered by D+4 but for some reason...we weren't extracted until index on D+9.

The Recon extract officer claimed that I was sucking ______ because instead of using the proper chain of command, all of my critical intel was passed straight to the Regiment instead of to Recon.

One time pads stink...
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: steve58 on November 25, 2012, 08:31:54 PM
I'm still holding out hope that they'll be able to decipher the msg, eventually.  Time for the Bletchley Park boffins to fire up a Cray or two  :P

...if its this hard to crack, maybe Patreaus should've used the one time pad system  :)
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: Staggerwing on November 25, 2012, 08:37:33 PM
Considering that two of the groups in the msg already match (see image in thread), they should have a least a start.
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: Smuckatelli on November 26, 2012, 09:14:49 AM
Quote from: Staggerwing on November 25, 2012, 08:37:33 PM
Considering that two of the groups in the msg already match (see image in thread), they should have a least a start.

I dunno.....those look like the confirmation words. Each message had to have a 'word' to identify the sender. My four letter wrod was 'moon' if I didn't start the message with 'moon' it was not authenticated.

I really hope that they can find a way to decipher it but I don't think it is possible without a key.
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: LongBlade on November 26, 2012, 10:11:44 AM
Quote from: Smuckatelli on November 26, 2012, 09:14:49 AM
Quote from: Staggerwing on November 25, 2012, 08:37:33 PM
Considering that two of the groups in the msg already match (see image in thread), they should have a least a start.

I dunno.....those look like the confirmation words. Each message had to have a 'word' to identify the sender. My four letter wrod was 'moon' if I didn't start the message with 'moon' it was not authenticated.

I really hope that they can find a way to decipher it but I don't think it is possible without a key.

One would think that with a computer you could generate enough keys to process every possible outcome and eventually solve it.

Whether anyone *wants* to allocate the resources? That's a different question.
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: Smuckatelli on November 26, 2012, 01:50:23 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on November 26, 2012, 10:11:44 AM
Quote from: Smuckatelli on November 26, 2012, 09:14:49 AM
Quote from: Staggerwing on November 25, 2012, 08:37:33 PM
Considering that two of the groups in the msg already match (see image in thread), they should have a least a start.

I dunno.....those look like the confirmation words. Each message had to have a 'word' to identify the sender. My four letter wrod was 'moon' if I didn't start the message with 'moon' it was not authenticated.

I really hope that they can find a way to decipher it but I don't think it is possible without a key.

One would think that with a computer you could generate enough keys to process every possible outcome and eventually solve it.

Whether anyone *wants* to allocate the resources? That's a different question.

I don't think it is possible without knowing the origin of the key.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-time_pad

I remember catching my ghillie suit on fire when I was burning a page. It was windy so I crossed my ankles to form a block from the windy. The paper burned quickly but my ghillie also managed to catch fire.
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: GDS_Starfury on November 26, 2012, 04:03:22 PM
what HASNT happened to you?
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: LongBlade on November 26, 2012, 05:08:58 PM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on November 26, 2012, 04:03:22 PM
what HASNT happened to you?

I don' think he's dated Lindsey Lohan.
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: Smuckatelli on November 26, 2012, 07:41:49 PM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on November 26, 2012, 04:03:22 PM
what HASNT happened to you?

Most of these things were forever forgotten until you lugheads force me to remember. Besides, it wasn't anything to be proud of, lucky for me the ghillie didn't burn as quickly as the one time pads.

See...now you done it again...I just remembered my 21st birthday, in the field at Camp Lejuene. After we secured for the night I found a fifth of Jack in my hooch. Later on that night, I determined that it was cold, put some lighter fluid in a canteen cup and had a nice warm fire going in the shelterhalves. In my drunken stupor I realized that the fire was getting higher....I didn't want to buy a new shelter half so in my drunk state, I determined to put water on the fire. This only raised the level of the fire...EAP consisted of me using a brand new cammie top to put the fire out. The fire was out but the cammie top had a perfect outline of a canteen cup.... I wore my flak jacket 24/7 until we got back to the barracks. 

You guys are innocent of bringing up the Bangui Smuck Torch Two Step.....that was either the Canadian of Swiss Missionaries......
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: Smuckatelli on November 26, 2012, 07:43:30 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on November 26, 2012, 05:08:58 PM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on November 26, 2012, 04:03:22 PM
what HASNT happened to you?

I don' think he's dated Lindsey Lohan.

No I haven't..but I did get Shakira to send Tomas some personalized gear.... 8)
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: GDS_Starfury on November 26, 2012, 09:12:38 PM
QuoteYou guys are innocent of bringing up the Bangui Smuck Torch Two Step.....that was either the Canadian of Swiss Missionaries......

only you could get the clap from a nun.
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: LongBlade on November 26, 2012, 09:27:21 PM
Quote from: Smuckatelli on November 26, 2012, 07:41:49 PMEAP consisted of me using a brand new cammie top to put the fire out. The fire was out but the cammie top had a perfect outline of a canteen cup

What you wear under your uniform is none of our concern.

http://www.keystonecountrystore.com/Camo_Lingerie/Weber_Naked_North_Pink_Lace-Trimmed_Camisole_-_XL/Page_1/CMC3548609.html
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: Smuckatelli on November 26, 2012, 09:53:33 PM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on November 26, 2012, 09:12:38 PM
QuoteYou guys are innocent of bringing up the Bangui Smuck Torch Two Step.....that was either the Canadian of Swiss Missionaries......

only you could get the clap from a nun.

Wrong again.....the only one that had sex in Bangui was my Czech Boxer with the nun's Normandie Boxer. Besides the nun was like 800 years old.
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: LongBlade on December 17, 2012, 04:32:08 PM
Cracked by a Canadian who used a similar code book to his Grandfather's from WWI.

Cracked in 17 minutes.

"Experts" believe the message is uncrackable.

My money is on the guy who was visited by the Good Idea Fairy.

Quote"It follows same sort of code they used in the first war," Young told NBC News. "I'm not saying my note is perfect, but I am saying the code is crackable and this one is pretty close."

It took Young, the editor of a local volunteer history group, 17 minutes to understand the message, which consists of 25 five-letter code groups.

He believes that the message was sent one afternoon in 1944, not long after the Allied landing at Normandy. It was written by an officer who was dropped behind enemy lines, confirming an earlier lunch-time note he sent giving the map coordinates of the Germans' guns and tanks. It also confirmed that several units of American and British troops had finally met up.

In addition to using his uncle's code book, Young double checked with infantry maps online to confirm his hypotheses.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/17/15970511-unbreakable-wwii-carrier-pigeon-code-cracked-says-canadian-enthusiast
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: Con on December 18, 2012, 09:06:42 AM
Thought this had already been posted

The code was cracked a little while ago.  Actually pretty dramatic stuff and if I was the seargent who had written it I would be pretty pissed that the pigeon decided to take a nap on a chimney.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2248818/Hit-Jerrys-panzers--code-dead-wartime-pigeon-cracked.html

Con
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: LongBlade on December 18, 2012, 12:11:48 PM
Thanks, Con!
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: steve58 on December 18, 2012, 06:23:37 PM
How did I miss this?!  Thanks for posting, now I can finally sleep at night  ;D

Seriously, thanks.  I was hoping they'd crack it.
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: Longdan on December 18, 2012, 10:01:30 PM
Who was the Nazi spy who killed the British pigeon
and hid its body in a chimney?  Or did the pigeon
stop at the pub on the way home and mistake the chimney
for the coop and get asphyxiated?
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: Longdan on December 21, 2012, 01:51:03 AM
Here is some more:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/ontario-man-says-hes-cracked-ww-ii-carrier-214803960.html
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: steve58 on December 26, 2012, 11:01:53 AM
Maybe not decoded.... (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9766130/GCHQ-dismisses-claims-D-Day-pigeon-riddle-has-been-cracked.html)  :-\
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: LongBlade on December 26, 2012, 12:41:28 PM
Interesting.
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: Con on December 26, 2012, 03:00:11 PM
Now I wonder if it ever gets decoded if it could have been a message that would have altered history.

Something along the lines of
Omaha Beach completely undefended...send entire invasion force here
or
Duty free beer at Calais...Perfect place to have entire British army rest up and booze up
or
V2 rockets do not seem like a significant threat..they rarely make it off the launchpa...BOOM


Con
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: Longdan on January 03, 2013, 06:34:31 PM
Like this


Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2012, 09:28:14 AM »

    Quote
    Modify

"....redacted..so then just give us the go ahead old chap and the war will be over by Friday."
Title: Re: Skeleton of WWII carrier pigeon found in UK chimney w/msg attached
Post by: Boggit on February 26, 2013, 11:28:05 AM
Quote from: Gusington on November 04, 2012, 11:24:45 AM
I didn't know they still used pigeons in WWII.
Yes they did. A lighthearted introduction can be found here... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4C0BfNCHs8