Combat Mission status

Started by RyanE, May 27, 2018, 02:09:59 PM

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mirth

Translation: I  :smitten: Combat Mission always and 4 ever!!!
"45 minutes of pooping Tribbles being juggled by a drunken Horta would be better than Season 1 of TNG." - SirAndrewD

"you don't look at the mantelpiece when you're poking the fire" - Bawb

"Can't 'un' until you 'pre', son." - Gus

RyanE

Quote from: Zulu1966 on June 24, 2018, 04:12:06 PM
Quote from: RyanE on June 24, 2018, 06:17:07 AM
Quote from: Michael Dorosh on June 23, 2018, 09:54:21 PM
Quote from: RyanE on June 23, 2018, 07:53:35 PM
Let's face it...  In CM you are dropped in right in range of most of the weapons on the board.  There is almost no planning.  SB lets you do some recon, form a plan, and maneuver.  You don't have to use a 4x4 map in SB.  In fact, you can use a large map and restrict it to a smaller area.  But you have the option and the game can handle it if you want to do it.  I have seen SB scenarios where you only control one part of the entire larger blue force and the AI handles flanks.  The AI can be scripted by a designer with an immense amount of options to react to things happening around the map.

It took me a long time to change how I built scenarios from CM to SB.  I was so used to having units start in range and the firefights starting within minutes.  In SB, you have the freedom to not do that.  I can't count the number of CM scenarios I have played where either starting forces or reinforcements enter the board in battle or even in the middle of an enemy formation.




I'd say blame the scenario designers rather than the game. For World War II weapons, 4km isn't battle range. I think 1km would be pushing it, certainly in western Europe. (Desert and Russian steppe are exceptions, and neither theatre has been covered yet.) You may have a point for CMSF2, but that might just speak more to the fact the engine is less suited for modern warfare than its bread and butter.

The point of CM was never to have a large recon and operations planning element - it's really the wrong scale for that, especially given the limitations of the C2 links. It's designed to let you fight a battalion. Most battalions had extremely limited recon capabilities (a British battalion in Normandy had a single platoon of scouts and snipers).

Sounds like the criticism is that CM isn't more like TacOps. I'd suggest to get that experience...you play TacOps. :-)

No, you play Steel Beasts.  The main issue is that in large scenarios you have several issues in CM...

1) Large maps are dogs in modern computers
2) Even in some of the larger maps in CM, those units start right on top of each other
3) it might be theoretically the designers fault, but they aren't given the tools needed to do anything else

I love playing CM.  It is a great game.  But it has and mostly always will be a computer version of table top miniatures.  Steel Beats is more like a tactical combat simulator.  It can be hard and mundane at times.  But if you want to see some realistic (I think) combined arms combat, its pretty much the only game in town.

I really dont see why you keep comparing the two games - they are completely different - and in the realms of what CM does the map sizes are more than adequate for what it is trying to portray.

Because the way you can play, and the way I play, they are very similar.  In the last couple of years, updates to infantry, camera management, replays, and map controls allow you to play just like CM.  It lacks a little on the infantry side, but more than makes up for it in the AFV, support, logistics, and engineering side of things.  I thought I had said that before quite a few times.

Every now and then, I go back to CM and play around with it, but the shininess wears off after a bit.

Toonces

Quote from: Zulu1966 on June 24, 2018, 04:09:23 PM

Well actually - in relation to steam that is complete and utter bullshit. This dumbass idea that all you have to do is merely put a game on steam and you automatically have tens of thousands of sales only gets stated by those who have a complete ignorance of how it works in reality.

How does it work in reality, then?

I'm not saying your wrong, but my experience with Steam would seem to contradict you.  I have literally hundreds of games that I haven't even installed, let alone played, because of impulse buys during Steam sales, or just seeing something neat pop up on my Steam page.  The chances of me happening upon some specific game developer site, and then going through any sort of "process" to buy a game is very, very low these days, unless word of mouth here on Grogheads directs me there. 

But on any given day, who knows what I might buy when I log onto Steam? 

Again, maybe I'm wrong, but heck, I've got most of the Graviteam catalog and haven't played most of them, because they're on Steam and i just find myself buying the bundles, or picking up DLC to be "complete".  But that's because it's on Steam and it's easy.  I don't feel compelled to search out BFC and have to fuss about how to patch and all that nonsense.

So...no I don't agree with you.  But I'm certainly interested in how I have it wrong.  I don't actually know how Steam "works" other than they offer a lot of games, and it couldn't be easier to buy them there.
"If you had a chance, right now, to go back in time and stop Hitler, wouldn't you do it?  I mean, I personally wouldn't stop him because I think he's awesome." - Eric Cartman

"Does a watch list mean you are being watched or is it a come on to Toonces?" - Biggs

HoodedHorseJoe

I wouldn't be surprised if there's an element of stubborness going on here, as well as some truth to the matter. Steam isn't the wonderful saviour we as consumers sometimes think it is.

My memory is a little fuzzy, but I'm pretty just JD McNeil at one point was like "We will never be on Steam", and in 2014 was definitely "We will never engage in Steam Sales". "Race to the bottom" is an actual quote I have from him in an old work notebook I think - now look where they are.

But it's not easy - you have to pay Steam their cut of the sales, you have to do a not-insignificant amount of dev work to make sure your game is compatible with Steam. You wouldn't believe the nonsense I overheard while working at Matrix's offices as they struggled with Steam's back-end and submitting builds to Valve.

He's right in that discoverability is difficult, but it depends on the genre. 'Strategy' has a rough time because you get listing for everything form CounterStrike to trash F2P games. 'Wargame' as a search term is actually quite clean - some trash and odd projects, but largely Graviteam, Matrix, the independents... as long as you tag the game correctly you'll be found by people who know what they're looking for.

Getting on the home-page now, or appealing to people who DON'T know what they're looking for... now that'd be more difficult, but then I don't remember seeing Slitherine on the Steam front page that often either, and afaik they're happy enough with the Steam business.

But if you can have a games like Gary Grigsby's behemoths, or Strategic Command exist on Steam then I'm sure Combat Mission would be fine.

Again, It's probably not going to be easy for them. I doubt they designed the game to work with something like Steam. I'm not 100% sure of their business model (making you buy patches and games multiple times?), I suspect that might not be steam friendly either. It'd be a lot of work to get everything complaint.

So tl;dtr, they're not wrong in their stance, but their stance is probably also got a small amount of stubbornness and lazyness wrapped within it. My experience of the last couple of years suggest Grogs don't take to change quickly.
Communications Director
Hooded Horse

We are a publisher of indie games with strategic and tactical depth. 28 projects and counting, come check out our portfolio on Steam, GOG, and the Epic Games Store!

You may have seen me around in previous roles such as editor of Wargamer.com and Strategy Gamer.

mirth

I'm trying to figure out how having the CM games on Steam would be worse than the current DRM and patch/update bullshit system BF uses, but then I'm just a simple caveman


"45 minutes of pooping Tribbles being juggled by a drunken Horta would be better than Season 1 of TNG." - SirAndrewD

"you don't look at the mantelpiece when you're poking the fire" - Bawb

"Can't 'un' until you 'pre', son." - Gus

bbmike

Maybe some sort of dongle system would simplify things.
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mirth

Quote from: bbmike on June 28, 2018, 09:32:25 AM
Maybe some sort of dongle system would simplify things.

:2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD
"45 minutes of pooping Tribbles being juggled by a drunken Horta would be better than Season 1 of TNG." - SirAndrewD

"you don't look at the mantelpiece when you're poking the fire" - Bawb

"Can't 'un' until you 'pre', son." - Gus

Jarhead0331

Quote from: mirth on June 28, 2018, 09:34:08 AM
Quote from: bbmike on June 28, 2018, 09:32:25 AM
Maybe some sort of dongle system would simplify things.

:2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD

Why is this funny? It actually would.

As annoying as the dongle is, I far prefer it to the frustrating and confusing mess of BFG's current system.
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


mirth

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 28, 2018, 09:36:36 AM
Why is this funny? It actually would.

As annoying as the dongle is, I far prefer it to the frustrating and confusing mess of BFG's current system.

that just makes it funnier
"45 minutes of pooping Tribbles being juggled by a drunken Horta would be better than Season 1 of TNG." - SirAndrewD

"you don't look at the mantelpiece when you're poking the fire" - Bawb

"Can't 'un' until you 'pre', son." - Gus

Toonces

Maybe CM doesn't make it prime time on the home page.  But I get all sorts of recommendations based on my library.  I know I've seen quite a few Matrix/Slitherine games pop up on there.

Or, say I find myself on Graviteam Tactics' page.  Down below there will be other games I might like, and there's Combat Mission staring at me.  I click the link, find myself on their page, and say, "Heck this looks interesting and it's only $10, I think I'll give it a try."  Boom, sale.

No doubt there will be some programming pain to get it Steam compatible (I hadn't considered that, actually), but that's that.  It doesn't diminish the usefulness of Steam as a platform to get the word out.

Anyway, I'm just here to enjoy the discussion.  CM isn't a game I play very often.  One of the two I have installed doesn't even work because the DRM is somehow hosed up, and I can't be bothered to figure out how to fix it.  Steam works; I'll stick with that for my game purchases.
"If you had a chance, right now, to go back in time and stop Hitler, wouldn't you do it?  I mean, I personally wouldn't stop him because I think he's awesome." - Eric Cartman

"Does a watch list mean you are being watched or is it a come on to Toonces?" - Biggs

Jarhead0331

Quote from: mirth on June 28, 2018, 09:37:39 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 28, 2018, 09:36:36 AM
Why is this funny? It actually would.

As annoying as the dongle is, I far prefer it to the frustrating and confusing mess of BFG's current system.

that just makes it funnier

:clap: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny:
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


Queeg

SteamSpy lists Ultimate General: Civil War as having 100,000-200,000 owners and 134,000 players (the latter data is described as "experimental").  Not sure if those figures reflect Steam-only sales or include purchases elsewhere linked through Steam, but I expect the vast majority are Steam purchases.  Those numbers (assuming they're accurate) aren't insubstantial for what is pretty much a niche title.     

HoodedHorseJoe

Quote from: Queeg on June 28, 2018, 10:41:42 AM
SteamSpy lists Ultimate General: Civil War as having 100,000-200,000 owners and 134,000 players (the latter data is described as "experimental").  Not sure if those figures reflect Steam-only sales or include purchases elsewhere linked through Steam, but I expect the vast majority are Steam purchases.  Those numbers (assuming they're accurate) aren't insubstantial for what is pretty much a niche title.   

To be fair, these kinds of examples can lead people to get carried away though. UGCW and CM aren't really the same game (and that does matter to some extend, but not a lot) so it doesn't quite apply. Although I agree, it proves that wargames can work on steam and I think they're being facetious if they're hinting otherwise, but their other concerns do have more merit.

There is of course also the steam rating system to contend with. If Battlefront really do have some controversial business practices, I can see their games just getting review-bombed out of spite.

Communications Director
Hooded Horse

We are a publisher of indie games with strategic and tactical depth. 28 projects and counting, come check out our portfolio on Steam, GOG, and the Epic Games Store!

You may have seen me around in previous roles such as editor of Wargamer.com and Strategy Gamer.

Zulu1966

#133
Quote from: Toonces on June 28, 2018, 08:41:56 AM
Quote from: Zulu1966 on June 24, 2018, 04:09:23 PM

Well actually - in relation to steam that is complete and utter bullshit. This dumbass idea that all you have to do is merely put a game on steam and you automatically have tens of thousands of sales only gets stated by those who have a complete ignorance of how it works in reality.

How does it work in reality, then?

I'm not saying your wrong, but my experience with Steam would seem to contradict you.  I have literally hundreds of games that I haven't even installed, let alone played, because of impulse buys during Steam sales, or just seeing something neat pop up on my Steam page.  The chances of me happening upon some specific game developer site, and then going through any sort of "process" to buy a game is very, very low these days, unless word of mouth here on Grogheads directs me there. 

But on any given day, who knows what I might buy when I log onto Steam? 

Again, maybe I'm wrong, but heck, I've got most of the Graviteam catalog and haven't played most of them, because they're on Steam and i just find myself buying the bundles, or picking up DLC to be "complete".  But that's because it's on Steam and it's easy.  I don't feel compelled to search out BFC and have to fuss about how to patch and all that nonsense.

So...no I don't agree with you.  But I'm certainly interested in how I have it wrong.  I don't actually know how Steam "works" other than they offer a lot of games, and it couldn't be easier to buy them there.

I don't know mate. Try reading this.

www.pcgamer.com/gdcs-realistic-talk-about-game-sales-on-steam-paints-a-grim-picture/

I know of this guy and he is someone who speaks from.experience  which is I suspect not something you do.

Regardless of the above and other "from the industry" examples what I dispute is the basic illogicality of your argument as indicated by what you say above. Basically what you are suggesting is that regardless of what price it is offered at to get those sales, the nature of the game itself and it's sheer visibility in amongst the thousands of games on offer it will make a profit and a significant profit. Ie that is a sure guaranteed thing. That I suggest is garbage and has about as much chance of being true for game sales as it is for anything else in life. That the position is also stated by those who have never actually released a game on steam doesn't honestly instill any greater sense of belief from me.
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jomni

#134
Having a game currently listed on Steam,  I would like to confirm that they take a huge cut.  And if it's bought on sale, then the proceeds to the developer is even smaller.
As mentioned above, it guarantees exposure and some additional sales but it still all depends on the appeal of the game.  There's money going in but it's not enough to live on.