Combat Mission status

[Zulu1966]

I've found it's usually better to say nothing as much as possible.

That's a sound m.o. if you work in the intelligence community.  When dealing with your customer base, not so much.

#:-)

I have to say I'm pretty much done with Battlefront and CM at this point. The game engine just feels so clunky and dated in 2018.  10 minutes with the Graviteam games really makes this apparent.  The 'new and improved' website that they took years to complete looks neither new or improved. Their inability to make any deadlines for releases, and then their incredible defensiveness and refusal to keep folks informed as to their plans, is just ridiculous at this point.

Yeah we know. Do you really have to keep telling us ?
10 minutes with the graviteam games and that impenetrable unexplained horrendous interface reminds me why I never get beyond  30 mins play

The interface isn't "horrendous". This is an often repeated falsehood. Its different. It takes some effort to learn. That's all.

Which is undoubtedly why I have watched about 15 different you tube videos trying to explain how to lay down indirect fire all filled with guys saying I don't know why this works but it seems to. Something it takes one read of the manual... yes there is actually a fully written proper English manual with the CM games that literally explains everything about the game. Fuck me now there is an innovation. Don't have to spend half my life trying to "figure" anything out it is actually written down.

Or witness the farce that is just trying to get units to lay down suppressing fire on an area ... freaking ridiculously obtuse and difficult to figure out. Set the AI control to this ... do that... and then say three hail.marys and it might just work...just what is wrong with select unit. Fire, ffs.

[IICptMillerII]

I have to agree with those with complaints about Graviteam. I've tried the games, but I just can't get into them. The interface is definitely something you have to learn to get used to.

Don't get me wrong, it has a lot of things going for it. I like their physics engine that allows for cool things like mud being flung around by tank tracks, and I always appreciate realistic gore effects on casualties. I also like the equipment you get to play around with, and the operational layer is a huge plus for me.

However at the end of the day I just don't really enjoy playing them beyond a quick 20 minute quick battle. My single biggest problem with the game is the lack of controls. Before everyone yells at me, let me explain:
In Graviteam there are plenty of nuanced controls, both for movement and formations and attacking/probing etc. The problem is, one you give these orders the TacAI is left to figure out all the micro details and bluntly, it doesn't do a great job. It's enough to get the job done, but it is certainly not efficient. In Graviteam I tend to take much higher casualties than should be expected, and performing fundamental battlefield tasks such as setting up a base of fire, laying down suppression fire and then assaulting the enemy with an assault element is not only difficult, half the time it just plain doesn't work.

The two explanations I've been given are 1) "you don't know how to play the game" and 2) "well that's just the fog of war. In reality its nearly impossible to set that kind of stuff up."
To point 1, yes I do know how to play the game. To point 2, I would strongly disagree, but I will concede there is some nuance there.

Overall I do not hate the games. In fact as I mentioned I like a lot of things they do, and I appreciate the fact that they cover some less well known conflicts and time periods. Personally though I just cannot get nearly as committed to them as I can with the CM games.

As to the business practices over at BFC, I've already said my peace on that. I think they could be more transparent, and that everyone gets frustrated when waiting on a highly anticipated product like CMSF2 to come out. that being said, I understand Steve's point completely. He is in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" position that I don't envy. He gave us a release estimate and wasn't able to keep it. He gave a brief (tongue in cheek, light hearted) explanation as to why the deadline wasn't reached. Now everyone is at his throat over it. If he hadn't of said anything, everyone would have been at his throat for not saying anything.

Am I giving a blank check apology for BFC? No. Could it be better? Yes. At the end of the day though, I just don't get nearly as upset over these issues as others do. I understand why people get upset over these things, and I don't think they're wrong for being upset. for some, these details take away from the overall experience of the games. For me, I ignore these things for the overall experience of the games.

Anyways I figure I'll end this essay of a post with another teaser of what I've been working on in anticipation of CMSF2. A quick note though, I'll be travelling for nearly all of August and so if the game does get released this month I won't be able to do much of anything with it until I return.

[Zulu1966]

Which is the point. Lauding the graviteam games as the perfect tactical war game is ridiculous. They both have issues but the bent here seems to be criticise everything about CM but ignore the numerous failings of the graviteam games as well. The much lauded strategic later in the graviteam games is again one of those aspects which is so obtuse as to be unintelligible. What good are good points when you can't figure out how they are meant to work.

I like both games. Both have strong and weak points. But this constant carping .against the CM games seems to be driven by some level of childish grudge.

[RyanE]

Graviteam is not the perfect tactical wargame.  That is a huge exaggeration of what is being said.  A good way to have people shy away from agreeing with you is to take what they are saying and completely blow it out of proportion.

I like CM.  I think  it has a lot of pluses over Graviteam's games.  But Steve has been and continues to be a dick to his customers.  There is little content or information coming out.  That is the point of the last few pages.

Again, Ill point you to the archives of BFC in probably around 2007/8 when CM2 was released.  A lot of complaining about the UI.  The people left playing it are people who have the muscle memory for the UI.

[Zulu1966]

Graviteam is not the perfect tactical wargame.  That is a huge exaggeration of what is being said.  A good way to have people shy away from agreeing with you is to take what they are saying and completely blow it out of proportion.

I like CM.  I think  it has a lot of pluses over Graviteam's games.  But Steve has been and continues to be a dick to his customers.  There is little content or information coming out.  That is the point of the last few pages.

Again, Ill point you to the archives of BFC in probably around 2007/8 when CM2 was released.  A lot of complaining about the UI.  The people left playing it are people who have the muscle memory for the UI.

And I don't see whether Steve is a dick or not really affects anything. Does Steve being a dick make it a poorer game ?

And saying graviteam was the perfect war game was hyperbole. Which I would have thought was obvious.

And I don't have muscle memory for the UI. I just think it is a little clunky but, unlike the graviteam games, patently clear and understandable. Yet another example of people stating something about the CM games as if it were undebatable fact for everyone, or should be.

As i say it is clunky, especially for things like convoy movement but you press a button and it does what you expect it to. Which is pretty much what I need from an interface.

[Destraex]

Please call -- and I mean this -- when Graviteam figures out the magic elixir of MP.

Until then, the flame for me is not worth the candle.

This. But I have also been asking CM team for years to update their multiplayer to allow more than 2 player and vs. AI coop that does not require magical community file swapping. But at least it has it.

I have graviteam games operation star and one of the others iirc and have tried them briefly before putting them down because of the interface, lack of explanation and the lack of control. I tend to want to know every little detail and CM lends itself to that. But yes CM can be a chore to carry out a 2 minute turn with 500 units. You can spend an hour setting up one of these 2 minutes of actual playtime because you literally are all of the tank and infantry commanders at once. Does this offer an unfair BORG like advantage? Yes in a way it does. The Command and Control aspects of CM though go a long way to mitigating this. Which can lead to some grand frustration. I suspect graviteam tactics is nowhere near as good at simulating tank view limitations and command and control limitations???? I would say that CM games are generally better "technical" games when it comes to most details. Where graviteam is much more of a hands off approach that means their is even more mystery about whether it's doing things right with all it's under the hood working out of what is happening or whether it's a much simpler calculation. I don't know. I barely remember graviteam now and will probably not try the games again until multiplayer is on the table. ... well I have a weak spot for them because I love the concept. So may buy them at some point. What I do love about the graviteam games is the tactical maps.... they are huge and give you a real sense of having options other than a simple frontal assault. You feel like you really ambush an enemy or can push in a direction that he may really not have troops. Where CM is not really at that "generalisimo" command level of choosing the route to take. CM generally runs you in as a lower tier commander. Colonel would probably be the highest. You have been sent in and you will face whatever you face without being able to avoid it.

[dinsdale]

And I don't see whether Steve is a dick or not really affects anything. Does Steve being a dick make it a poorer game ?

Battlefront can make for a poor customer experience, even if the game is great. Everyone has a threshold when a product is no longer worth the hassle to use it, I'm surprised that concept needs any clarification.

A few years ago they weren't alone, but there are few companies which rival them today, maybe only Norbsoft and Cleve Blackmore.

[Zulu1966]

Not to mention, the Graviteam games receive frequent updates and DLCs.

And the DLC is nothing more than a scenario. Some.times one or two new units. These aren't major game changing DLC not even minor. Frankly it just highlights another weakness of the graviteam games in that there is no proper scenario maker. I have access to the same thing for free in the CM scenario repository.

[Zulu1966]

And I don't see whether Steve is a dick or not really affects anything. Does Steve being a dick make it a poorer game ?

Battlefront can make for a poor customer experience, even if the game is great. Everyone has a threshold when a product is no longer worth the hassle to use it, I'm surprised that concept needs any clarification.

A few years ago they weren't alone, but there are few companies which rival them today, maybe only Norbsoft and Cleve Blackmore.

Well it doesn't need clarification only in so much as just to explain what were these trials of Hades they put you through yo make you sooooo anti.

Frankly I have all they sell. I pay, download, install. And I haven't had to interact with them beyond that in all the years I have been buying them. So a bit of a loss to think what they could have Done to you.

It's just a piece of software not a car.

All the whining about release dates and speed on content creation is just a bunch of people who act like kids who can't get their sweeties.

It is what it is and dictated by the size of operation and the fact this is nothing more than a hobbyist genre.

[Zulu1966]

This started as a post about the status of CM and CMSF 2. Which I was following as GH is where I come mostly.

But yet again it's polluted by the same people saying the same old shite  about their own personal axe to grind about BF.

Be nice of they could just leave one post alone for those of us that do like the game and to follow where things are.

Because I say again. We know. You have told us all before. And given the vitriol behind what you say I still fail to see why you waste time posting anything about the game.

[Pete Dero]

There are hundreds of shooters and RPG's available so I see no reason why a couple of similar wargames can't exist next to each other.

I would have liked to install Shock Force 2 in July using the upgrade option but my HD is full of unplayed games so life goes on.

[Michael Dorosh]

I remember a scenario in Combat Mission Battle for Normandy that had me controlling almost an entire Battalion of combat power: almost an entire battalion of Squad-sized elements. Fucking nightmare.

In fairness, that is probably an issue with the scenario designer doing something CM was never really intended to do. You could map out an entire city and deploy a full regiment on each side, but just because you can, doesn't mean you should...

CM works best, IMO, as a company-level simulation i.e. you have a company of assets on either side. The large maps are used as a selling point and there are indeed command and control links up to battalion level, but as you say it becomes cumbersome at that level to issue orders to every squad - particularly in real time.

A good scenario designer will accept the natural limitations of the game. But that's no different from any other game. You can set up 24 ASL boards and try to run an entire regiment - and some have - but it will take you weeks to finish. Some guys like that level of insanity, so you can't judge the game itself if you're not one of them.

It's also a natural instinct for players (and bad scenario designers) to want to make use of all the equipment available to them. Also comes down to play style, some guys like a nice, small chess match of evenly balanced forces, others just want to blow stuff up and watch lots of tanks roll around. CM will let you do both. It's not really designed to produce a chess match between entire brigades.

[Jarhead0331]

Not to mention, the Graviteam games receive frequent updates and DLCs.

And the DLC is nothing more than a scenario. Some.times one or two new units. These aren't major game changing DLC not even minor. Frankly it just highlights another weakness of the graviteam games in that there is no proper scenario maker. I have access to the same thing for free in the CM scenario repository.

You said you like the game...so why do you insist on knocking it at every opportunity? You do not need to attack one game in order to defend another. It really discredits and weakens your defense of CM. Its a textbook example of a fallacious argument. Ad hominem tu quoque. FYI - Not a persuasive way to argue a point at all. 

[Jarhead0331]

This started as a post about the status of CM and CMSF 2. Which I was following as GH is where I come mostly.

It would be a really short thread if that is all that was discussed in it, since Steve and BF don't really provide much to talk about...

[Zulu1966]

Not to mention, the Graviteam games receive frequent updates and DLCs.

And the DLC is nothing more than a scenario. Some.times one or two new units. These aren't major game changing DLC not even minor. Frankly it just highlights another weakness of the graviteam games in that there is no proper scenario maker. I have access to the same thing for free in the CM scenario repository.

You said you like the game...so why do you insist on knocking it at every opportunity? You do not need to attack one game in order to defend another. It really discredits and weakens your defense of CM. Its a textbook example of a fallacious argument. Ad hominem tu quoque. FYI - Not a persuasive way to argue a point at all.

Well as far as the DLC goes that is just a statement of fact. You are the one interpreting it as "knocking" the game. I have bought them all. As I have said before I like the graviteam games and I can see why, mostly due to the appeal of the graphics engine and it's more visceral nature, others like it.

You say I am knocking their games but  in effect I am just countering the arguments others who are constantly using to do what you accuse me of to CM yet you choose not to criticise them.

They are both good games in their own right but others live in this nether world where everything is great with graviteam and not with CM but you choose to ignore that as well.

What I do knock about the game is justified comment and primarily.ljves around the fact that large chunks of it are not explained anywhere that makes them understandable.

It is somewhat ironic that in a thread filled with people's one sided criticism of CM and BF you choose to pick a fight with what i said about graviteam. None of which was anything more than fact ... not actually opinion at all as even those who are blinkered tend to agree with them. Especially seeing as i am not the one here making verbose strident comments about "never buying another game" or "not having any space on my hard drive for BF games"

Have quite clearly said I like both games and have equally bought everything from graviteam as I have from BF. No comments from me about never purchasing a graviteam game again or other such BS. Am simply pointing to some of it's failings. A large part of which is around the game not having a level of documentation or interface that enable me to fully play it properly.