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Digital Gaming => Computer Gaming => Topic started by: RyanE on May 27, 2018, 01:09:59 PM

Title: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on May 27, 2018, 01:09:59 PM
So I haven't played in almost a year, but check in every couple months just to see what is going on because the BFC marketing machine is non-existent. 

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/126388-the-patch/?page=9

Looks like the natives are getting restless and the beta testers are circling the wagons for a last-man standing defense.  I am still not sure what to make of it.  Almost a year and a half after a patch created a couple issues, almost no official word from BFC on how they are handling it.

There is a rumor now that some on-again, off-again deal with the NZ MoD is holding everything up, along with departures of a couple employees.  But when these threads start popping up, expect Steve to pop in with some new roadmap and plan that will calm things down.  That is until someone points out how long its been since even a patch was released.

I get frustrated because I have all kinds of money to spend on anything they produce.  Yet I haven't spent anything in almost two years, because BFC does not appear to be in a hurry for my money.

edit: Found some info on the NZ deal...

https://www.cove.org.au/wargaming/article-experimenting-with-a-commercial-off-the-shelf-wargame-as-a-pme-tool/

Note the comment at the bottom.  Someone doesn't think its a good idea.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: bayonetbrant on May 27, 2018, 01:39:41 PM
I know you're more focused on the development of the game for your personal enjoyment, but if anyone is interested in actual discussions about the professional application of these types of games for military training, we don't lack for articles or discussion threads on our site for this very topic. I dare say we are far ahead of most any other general wargaming site in terms of discussing the professional applications of wargaming.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Sir Slash on May 27, 2018, 02:41:23 PM
I so much hope the Combat Mission team get or do whatever they need to keep this series going and improve on their updates and DRM issues/marketing/on and on and on. I've loved this game from the very first demo for Beyond Overlord I downloaded way back there. The hoops and hurtles you have to jump to actually keep the game current is maddening and frustrating but nobody does tactical warfare better. BMBB Was my all time favorite.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mirth on May 27, 2018, 02:51:23 PM
CMBB is one of the greatest computer wargames of all-time.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: bayonetbrant on May 27, 2018, 03:18:11 PM
Whatever other discussions about Combat Mission you guys want to have, please do not turn this into another DRM flame War
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mirth on May 27, 2018, 03:29:50 PM
Whatever other discussions about Combat Mission you guys want to have, please do not turn this into another DRM flame War

Well, you are the one to bring it up.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on May 27, 2018, 03:58:42 PM
I really hope they update Shock Force before they go under.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on May 27, 2018, 04:11:51 PM
I really hope they update Shock Force before they go under.

Right on, brother!
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Rayfer on May 27, 2018, 06:22:20 PM
I really hope they update Shock Force before they go under.

Right on, brother!

My dream scenario would be they put the entire Combat Mission library on Steam with Steam's auto patch/update features and sales during the holidays.  I know, ain't going to happen.  :'(
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: sandman2575 on May 27, 2018, 07:21:28 PM
I really hope they update Shock Force before they go under.


"Before they go under" -- that to me really seems to be the crux of the matter. The situation at BFC has felt moribund for a while now... like it's only a matter of time before they fold up the tent and call it a day. Arguments about DRM seem beside the point. The last announcement on the main BFC webpage about anything related to CMx2 is from April 2017. All is not well over there.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Sir Slash on May 27, 2018, 09:34:01 PM
Yes, no point bitching about the DRM stuff. Everybody knows about it by now. CMBO Is available from GOG, maybe the rest of them will end up there eventually.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mirth on May 27, 2018, 09:51:50 PM
Yes, no point bitching about the DRM stuff.

you must be new to DRM threads
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Skoop on May 27, 2018, 11:35:14 PM
Battlefront never figured out that they could put their games on steam and have occasional 50% off sales and everyone in the whole world would probably own a copy...They could never see past their own noses when it came to marketing or strategy.  What's better, 10,000 owning a copy at 50.00 or 500,000 owning a copy at 20.00 ?  The world has left battlefront behind unfortunately.  I do like the idea of the catalog available on gog though.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: MikeGER on May 27, 2018, 11:59:37 PM

My dream scenario would be they put the entire Combat Mission library on Steam with Steam's auto patch/update features and sales during the holidays.  I know, ain't going to happen.  :'(

This! O0   and existing customers get a Steam code like Matrix does.

+1:dreamer:
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: fabius on May 28, 2018, 01:19:59 AM
I really hope they update Shock Force before they go under.
Not sure if serious but reminded me of an impression I had about.


The whole no Steam thing made me wonder if they are the sort that want keep most of what they make to the point of preferring 80 % of $1 million over 40 % of $5 million.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on May 28, 2018, 01:47:36 AM
Yes, no point bitching about the DRM stuff. Everybody knows about it by now. CMBO Is available from GOG, maybe the rest of them will end up there eventually.

100% agree...people know what it is and is a personal choice of whether to support it.  Not my favorite scheme, but it wouldn't keep me from buying.

But on a related point with all the talk of them "going under"....has Battlefront ever stated what they would do with their games if they went out of business?  I have read about other companies (although at the moment I can't recall which ones) where they claim if they ever did go out of business they would remove the DRM from their games to ensure people could continue playing.  Any chance Battlefront has stated a position on this in the past?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Staggerwing on May 28, 2018, 04:45:34 AM
What's the history of companies going under and turning off their DRM along with the office lights on their way out? I don't know of any but that doesn't mean it has not happened.

More likely, if Battlefront does go under then the current Combat Mission IP and rights would end up being salable assets used to offset some of the debts. Whether that means that any new owners would honor past licenses would really be up to them, though common sense would suggest that they at least offer a hefty discount to current game owners as it would generate a quick cash infusion from lots of rebuyers.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on May 28, 2018, 05:08:54 AM
What's the history of companies going under and turning off their DRM along with the office lights on their way out? I don't know of any but that doesn't mean it has not happened.

More likely, if Battlefront does go under then the current Combat Mission IP and rights would end up being salable assets used to offset some of the debts. Whether that means that any new owners would honor past licenses would really be up to them, though common sense would suggest that they at least offer a hefty discount to current game owners as it would generate a quick cash infusion from lots of rebuyers.

hasnít yet but they stated they would if ever they did...wasnít big companies, smaller niche shops
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Apocalypse 31 on May 28, 2018, 05:13:56 AM
Maybe the new owners will finally put the games on Steam and get some exposure.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Pete Dero on May 28, 2018, 05:47:43 AM
Maybe somebody from Matrix/Slitherine could comment on the effects they've got from exposure on Steam (and sites like Fanatical selling Steam keys for their games).

(besides the obvious forum remarks on Steam : $70 for a game with such terrible graphics !)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Destraex on May 28, 2018, 06:51:35 AM
Did you guys not believe this on January 1st?
"The good news is that 2018 is set to reap the benefits of 2017's development efforts.  Right now we have three products in advanced stage of development:

CMFI Rome to Victory Module to bring the timeline to the end of the war
CMSF being thoroughly updated for its move to Engine 4 and all of its massive improvements over the original 2007/2009 code
CMRT Module 1 (no name announced yet) bringing the war's end timeframe for the Eastern Front"

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/126172-happy-new-years-day-2018-look-ahead/

Funnily enough though. A friend has spent the last two weeks trying to successfully update CMFI to engine 4.0 so we can have a PBEM.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: MikeGER on May 28, 2018, 06:54:55 AM
in case of belly up
i would not be astonished if Battlefront would put out a more bitter statement then
like: "Sorry all licenses had expired and you had enuf years/month/days to enjoy our product for your small investment. the software is now a part of the bankrupt's estate and has, according to the bankruptcy trustee, no value if we 'set it free or alter in any form' the build-in existing DRM scheme"
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on May 28, 2018, 07:00:04 AM
I think we can consider ourselves lucky if we one of those gets done.  The track record for meeting commitments on Steve's plans is pretty poor.

Just looking at past releases...its a couple months from official announcement to final release.  And that was with a full staff.  Doesn't look like we are close to an announcement.  So if the announcement for one of those is in two weeks, we are into August before it releases.  Close to 2/3 of the year gone.  And I think that is optimistic.

Even the beta testers are now starting to carp a little about lack of info.  That is what is different now versus in the past long periods of silence.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on May 28, 2018, 07:02:15 AM
btw, what ever happened to the big website update they said delayed all their releases.  That seems to have fallen by the wayside.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Rayfer on May 28, 2018, 07:02:55 AM

My dream scenario would be they put the entire Combat Mission library on Steam with Steam's auto patch/update features and sales during the holidays.  I know, ain't going to happen.  :'(

This! O0   and existing customers get a Steam code like Matrix does.

+1:dreamer:

Slightly off target but here it goes anyway...I wish John Tiller/HPS would make the Steam transition as well.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: sandman2575 on May 28, 2018, 07:58:21 AM
I think we can consider ourselves lucky if we one of those gets done.  The track record for meeting commitments on Steve's plans is pretty poor.

Just looking at past releases...its a couple months from official announcement to final release.  And that was with a full staff.  Doesn't look like we are close to an announcement.  So if the announcement for one of those is in two weeks, we are into August before it releases.  Close to 2/3 of the year gone.  And I think that is optimistic.

Even the beta testers are now starting to carp a little about lack of info.  That is what is different now versus in the past long periods of silence.


I hate to be cynical, but my response to the Jan. 1 announcement was very much "I'll believe it when I see it."

If there is one thing that does get under my skin about Battlefront's way of doing business, it's the pretense that they're working so hard they just can't possibly find time to update the community on their progress. I have no doubt they are working hard and know it's a very small operation. But the idea that occasional updates on progress would somehow cut into precious development time (often justified with defensive posts to the effect "what would you rather have us do? post in the forums or work on Combat Mission?") is ridiculous.

The spotty dev communication coupled with the track record of underestimating how long new updates/releases are going to take make the "Look what's on the horizon for 2018!" happy talk hard to take seriously.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Toonces on May 28, 2018, 08:32:53 AM
If Steam can work for Matrix and Eagle Dynamics, I can't see how a transition to Steam would be a bad thing for BFC.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Skoop on May 28, 2018, 10:48:39 AM
Part of me wants to see battlefront fail so the code can become open source and turned over to teams of modders.  Then the game would take on a whole new life like BMS did with falcon.  Hell, the game might finally reach it's full potential and the canceled CMC operational layer might finally be completed.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Apocalypse 31 on May 28, 2018, 11:13:59 AM
If Steam can work for Matrix and Eagle Dynamics, I can't see how a transition to Steam would be a bad thing for BFC.

Lets not get crazy; I dont think its working well for ED - due to their own greed and refusal to fully commit to Steam.

ED is also a community that has severely been, and will remain, fragmented by Open Beta, Release, and Pay-for Maps.....another self-inflicted wound by Eagle Dynamics.

Why is it that video game developers can make something so beautiful and enjoyable, but be such shit businessmen?



Part of me wants to see battlefront fail

I agree - and as horrible as that sounds:
1. I havent enjoyed a BF release since Shock Force. Each release has been low effort with a high money grab
2. I want their model to fail. The refusal to expand their reach and their reliance upon 1990's DRM technology needs to fail. They can defend their stance on Steam all the way, and it just goes to show that they are out of touch with the market. Dinosaurs went extinct for a reason.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mikeck on May 28, 2018, 11:18:52 AM
If Steam can work for Matrix and Eagle Dynamics, I can't see how a transition to Steam would be a bad thing for BFC.

I seriously donít understand why a company WOULDNT go to steam. I donít bother with Battlefront games ever since the disaster I had trying to update to the new engine and a subsequent patching info. The latter never resolved by a company that didnít seem to care. Regardless, Iíd buy every single one of their games if they were on steam since I donít have to worry about buying patches, DRM and activating subscription crap
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on May 28, 2018, 12:25:56 PM
"But the idea that occasional updates on progress would somehow cut into precious development time (often justified with defensive posts to the effect "what would you rather have us do? post in the forums or work on Combat Mission?") is ridiculous."


Funny, I was just checking on when the last time Steve updated anything.  Saw he was recently posting in some political discussion on the CMBS forum.  Then in another forum, a couple of the old-timers got on people about asking Steve to take time away from his important development work to answer them...#irony
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Ubercat on May 28, 2018, 04:03:42 PM
I think we can consider ourselves lucky if we one of those gets done.  The track record for meeting commitments on Steve's plans is pretty poor.

Just looking at past releases...its a couple months from official announcement to final release.  And that was with a full staff.  Doesn't look like we are close to an announcement.  So if the announcement for one of those is in two weeks, we are into August before it releases.  Close to 2/3 of the year gone.  And I think that is optimistic.

Even the beta testers are now starting to carp a little about lack of info.  That is what is different now versus in the past long periods of silence.


I hate to be cynical, but my response to the Jan. 1 announcement was very much "I'll believe it when I see it."

If there is one thing that does get under my skin about Battlefront's way of doing business, it's the pretense that they're working so hard they just can't possibly find time to update the community on their progress. I have no doubt they are working hard and know it's a very small operation. But the idea that occasional updates on progress would somehow cut into precious development time (often justified with defensive posts to the effect "what would you rather have us do? post in the forums or work on Combat Mission?") is ridiculous.

The spotty dev communication coupled with the track record of underestimating how long new updates/releases are going to take make the "Look what's on the horizon for 2018!" happy talk hard to take seriously.

What gets under my skin is that Destraex buddy spent two weeks trying to get the game that he paid for to work.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Boggit on May 28, 2018, 08:40:20 PM
What's the history of companies going under and turning off their DRM along with the office lights on their way out? I don't know of any but that doesn't mean it has not happened.

More likely, if Battlefront does go under then the current Combat Mission IP and rights would end up being salable assets used to offset some of the debts. Whether that means that any new owners would honor past licenses would really be up to them, though common sense would suggest that they at least offer a hefty discount to current game owners as it would generate a quick cash infusion from lots of rebuyers.
I don't know about the US, but certainly in UK law a transfer of business contract carries with it both the assets and liabilities of the company.

Any assignment of the intellectual property rights will most likely contain provisions for the continuation of the licence to existing users on the basis that it creates a fundamental breach of contract to existing customers, with rights of action under relevant consumer protection law. An assignment of the property in Combat Mission without adequate protection for existing licensees might well be seen by the courts as an anticipatory breach of contract.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/breach-of-contract-anticipatory-breach-32653.html
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on May 28, 2018, 09:39:37 PM
So I haven't played in almost a year, but check in every couple months just to see what is going on because the BFC marketing machine is non-existent. 

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/126388-the-patch/?page=9

Looks like the natives are getting restless and the beta testers are circling the wagons for a last-man standing defense.  I am still not sure what to make of it.  Almost a year and a half after a patch created a couple issues, almost no official word from BFC on how they are handling it.

There is a rumor now that some on-again, off-again deal with the NZ MoD is holding everything up, along with departures of a couple employees.  But when these threads start popping up, expect Steve to pop in with some new roadmap and plan that will calm things down.  That is until someone points out how long its been since even a patch was released.

I get frustrated because I have all kinds of money to spend on anything they produce.  Yet I haven't spent anything in almost two years, because BFC does not appear to be in a hurry for my money.

edit: Found some info on the NZ deal...

https://www.cove.org.au/wargaming/article-experimenting-with-a-commercial-off-the-shelf-wargame-as-a-pme-tool/

Note the comment at the bottom.  Someone doesn't think its a good idea.

No desire to get involved in the rest of the comments on this thread as it seems a mixture of the same old crap. But what is the AI issue in the v4 upgrade ?

Had a look buts can't see the wheat for the chaff.

My guess is CMSF 2 is taking longer than expected. They know they need to finish it and it will likely be a hefty set of sales for them. Have seen predictions of their demise for at least the last ten years. Comments about wishing they would  go out of business  are just contemptuous.

The lack of update is disappointing and the news desert annoying yet these are all things said for years with regard to BFC yet people still post like it's the first time it's happened.

Still the same old misinformed posts about steam like it is a source of instant wealth and riches ... when there are several well documented examples around more mainstream games that it's not let Alone for a niche war game. Why people can't accept BFC have their business model and just move on from their own mythology about what steam actually does for sales ... especially since they moved on from their model of having selectivity over what games they sold on their platform to the any old shite of today.

Here is hoping CMSF sees a release dates soon. There are years of playing time in that title Alone.

Here is hoping the one guy doing all the coding. And it is one guy ... is in good health an BF continue in their own particular way in business for as long as they are able and add more excellent content to my hobby.

Depressing.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Boggit on May 28, 2018, 10:10:35 PM
@Zulu1966

I mostly agree with you. O0 I sincerely hope Battlefront continue to do well, and as you say they have had negative news for years, yet they continue to produce excellent games with a very small team.

I for one would be very sad to see them fail, but I don't expect it anytime soon either.

Like you, I think CMSF2 will be a fantastic addition to the line up, and as you say it is probably taking longer than expected. Much like JTS, Steve Grammont is usually fairly tight lipped as to development deadlines for obvious reasons.

@Destraex
Get your friend to raise a support ticket if he is having problems. So far Battlefront have dealt with 95% of my support issues within a day of raising a matter with them.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: IICptMillerII on May 28, 2018, 11:25:44 PM
I'm a huge fan of Combat Mission. Have been for a while. Not quite long enough to have played the original games, but I own every CMx2 game out.

The community over there seems to be in a bit of turmoil, or rather a tissy fit. It's not completely unwarranted, given the lack of information, specifically regarding a patch that is overdue in fixing a rather potent bug. I was actually one of the community members who first identified the bug. Here is the video I made showing the bug in action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5qlEvVtLIw



In a nutshell, infantry get up and run the second indirect fires begin landing, regardless of their current cover, leadership, motivation, morale state, or training. This bug was introduced with the Engine v4 upgrade a year and a half ago. BFC has said that they know of the bug and they are working on a fix, and said fix should be ready soon, but that was back in January of this year.

I can understand the frustration many are feeling due to this. Further, they have a lot of back logged titles in development. One, a module for Fortress Italy that will bring the Italian theater to the end of WWII, was first announced years ago, but has been delayed ever since. One of the reasons for these delays is a major member of their team moving on to do different things due to burnout. He was the primary campaign and scenario maker, and as I understand it this is one of the main reasons why the Fortress Italy module has been delayed so long. Another major reason for the slower progress has been a recent defense contract with the New Zealand Defense Force, which has been mentioned here already.

I myself have grown a bit impatient, specifically with the patch to fix the infantry behavior. Yelling and screaming, or hoping the company fails though does nothing. Unfortunately there really isn't anything to do but sit back and wait for the patches and modules/games to be released. In the meantime, Shock Force is still a very fun game with tons of user made content to wade through. The dated engine can be a pain, but it certainly does not make the game unplayable. All the other titles play excellently if rolled back to Engine v3 as well.

As to the Steam debate, I really don't have any input myself. I've heard both sides, and both make convincing arguments. The reality is, for their own reasons BFC has decided to avoid Steam. It doesn't make the games any less playable for me, so I really don't mind.

Hopefully we hear from BFC soon, and new content starts to flow. In the meantime, there is plenty to keep everyone busy, including checking out the DAAR I'm doing here in the AAR section of the forums.
(Shameful plug I know) http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=22191.0
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on May 31, 2018, 04:35:32 AM
http://community.battlefront.com/topic/126834-a-long-delayed-update/

Looks like the restless natives must have spurred some action.  There is also a separate update on CMSF2.  I suspect that CMSF2 is delayed because of the 10 minutes it took to post that update.

While its great that Steve finally gave an update.  Its disappointing to read that CMSF2 and the CMRT module were, once again, wholly underestimated in their state at the last update.  This is a pretty set pattern now.  Steve announcing a plan based on product XXXX being very close to done.  Then a year later announcing it wasn't as close to done as he thought.  You would think there would be a lesson-learned in their somewhere.  Not as much of an issue if he just communicated once every few months or so.

Noted he said the website is finally being updated.  It also looks like they are using some outside resources to help with some stuff.  When you go a year without a new purchasable product, and no investors, cash flow must be horrible.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Pinetree on May 31, 2018, 05:12:28 AM
The upgrade prices are pretty reasonable though.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on May 31, 2018, 05:42:32 AM
If they lose account, order, or license data in porting that over from the old site to the new. Wow. Can you imagine?

Really glad to hear that shock force 2 is the priority. Still sounds like itís pretty far off. Iíll be pleasantly surprised if it arrives in 2018.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on May 31, 2018, 07:14:05 AM
Agree on CMSF 2.  I think the only way to look at it is to set your own less optimistic expectations.  Depending on Steve will lead to disappointment, most likely.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on May 31, 2018, 07:16:31 AM
http://community.battlefront.com/topic/126834-a-long-delayed-update/

Looks like the restless natives must have spurred some action.  There is also a separate update on CMSF2.  I suspect that CMSF2 is delayed because of the 10 minutes it took to post that update.

While its great that Steve finally gave an update.  Its disappointing to read that CMSF2 and the CMRT module were, once again, wholly underestimated in their state at the last update.  This is a pretty set pattern now.  Steve announcing a plan based on product XXXX being very close to done.  Then a year later announcing it wasn't as close to done as he thought.  You would think there would be a lesson-learned in their somewhere.  Not as much of an issue if he just communicated once every few months or so.

Noted he said the website is finally being updated.  It also looks like they are using some outside resources to help with some stuff.  When you go a year without a new purchasable product, and no investors, cash flow must be horrible.

Thanks RyanE.  Good to see an explanation. Personally I thought CMSF2 appeared to be coming a bit quick. I am glad to see it is not far off now and is the priority. This is a superb set of content and will keep me occupied until the other stuff arrives.

Personally more interested in the Russian module than the Italian one...the comment about the Berlin master map particularly exciting.

Glad to see they are taking on extra help and that rumours of their demise as usual is uninformed speculation.

I imagine even just something like replacing all those fake bridges in all the campaigns and scenarios took much longer than expected.

Great they have updated everyone and look forward to more info shortly
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on May 31, 2018, 07:31:02 AM
"Glad to see they are taking on extra help and that rumours of their demise as usual is uninformed speculation"

But something Steve seems to have not learned is that absence of ANY communications leads to this.  Its called marketing and even the most basic of small companies have to do some of it in small doses to survive.  Why does it take a flare up on the BFC boards to pull Steve away from Ukraine discussions and actually update his customers who would throw money at him?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Sir Slash on May 31, 2018, 09:06:21 AM
Once again Grogheads leads the way in spurning positive gaming developments. From our mouths to their ears.  :smiley6600:
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on May 31, 2018, 09:44:34 AM
I know you're more focused on the development of the game for your personal enjoyment, but if anyone is interested in actual discussions about the professional application of these types of games for military training, we don't lack for articles or discussion threads on our site for this very topic. I dare say we are far ahead of most any other general wargaming site in terms of discussing the professional applications of wargaming.

No one comes here for the articles, Hef.

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on May 31, 2018, 09:49:11 AM
Quote
btw, what ever happened to the big website update they said delayed all their releases.  That seems to have fallen by the wayside.

Still underway but apparently imminent according to the recent post.

I'll be curious to see what has changed in CMSF2. A number of my scenarios had been included in the campaign of the original release (was it TF Thunder?).  Sounds like some of the vehicle models have been changed and a number of the original design team came back for the rerelease, so possibly there will be a number of new scenarios or even a new campaign.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: bayonetbrant on May 31, 2018, 10:32:39 AM
No one comes here for the articles, Hef.

I always wanted to work for a media organization like Playboy! O0  :)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on May 31, 2018, 11:52:26 AM
This comment particularly intrigued me... Correcting our original research and predictions for near future TO&E also was no small task.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on May 31, 2018, 12:05:57 PM
No one comes here for the articles, Hef.

I always wanted to work for a media organization like Playboy! O0  :)

Given our reputation, you're much more akin to Larry Flynt.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on May 31, 2018, 12:08:31 PM
This comment particularly intrigued me... Correcting our original research and predictions for near future TO&E also was no small task.

I'm still not clear on whether the module is set in 2008 or the current Syria. Certainly the model of a regular US Stryker force taking on the national Syrian Army does not match the situation on the ground. Will we see ISIS and Russian mercenaries and Canadian special forces in the new one? Kind of a 'content rich' area either way you choose to go. Maybe they'll pick both (i.e. conventional 2008 US-Syria war, and historical 2017 Syrian civil war with ISIS and proxy armies)?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on May 31, 2018, 12:54:54 PM


edit: Found some info on the NZ deal...

https://www.cove.org.au/wargaming/article-experimenting-with-a-commercial-off-the-shelf-wargame-as-a-pme-tool/

Note the comment at the bottom.  Someone doesn't think its a good idea.

Interesting, I hadn't been aware of the "NZ deal" though I remember a previous deal where either Australia or NZ got a licenced version of CM:AK with additional units not available to the public (nothing major, I think an AA Bren Gun tripod was the highlight).

There was a "game day" of sorts at our reserve army armoury a couple months back, where the local armoured regiment sat down at a few rows of PCs set up on the parade square and played an online simulation - I believe it was the military version of Steel Beasts. And there I was, in my infantry company's HQ office, doing spreadsheets on who had thrown a hand grenade this year or not.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: IICptMillerII on May 31, 2018, 01:44:47 PM
This comment particularly intrigued me... Correcting our original research and predictions for near future TO&E also was no small task.

I'm still not clear on whether the module is set in 2008 or the current Syria. Certainly the model of a regular US Stryker force taking on the national Syrian Army does not match the situation on the ground. Will we see ISIS and Russian mercenaries and Canadian special forces in the new one? Kind of a 'content rich' area either way you choose to go. Maybe they'll pick both (i.e. conventional 2008 US-Syria war, and historical 2017 Syrian civil war with ISIS and proxy armies)?

No. It will take place in 2008, following the same alternate history scenario. There will be no Russians. BFC has no plan to simulate the civil war, or ISIS, or anything else of that nature.

"Glad to see they are taking on extra help and that rumours of their demise as usual is uninformed speculation"

But something Steve seems to have not learned is that absence of ANY communications leads to this.  Its called marketing and even the most basic of small companies have to do some of it in small doses to survive.  Why does it take a flare up on the BFC boards to pull Steve away from Ukraine discussions and actually update his customers who would throw money at him?

As I mentioned, I was also a bit put off by the lack of communication over the past 5 months, especially considering their last communication was that things were getting close to release. I'm also very anxious for the 4.0 patch, which they have yet to release any new info on.

That said, to his credit Steve did say that the lack of communication was a mistake on their part, and apologized for it. Also, more communication isn't always a good thing. It's damned if you do, damned if you don't. A lot of the time when they do post updates, they are met with a lot of unjustified criticism and speculation. If I were them I would be weary of posting lots of small updates myself. Again, a communication blackout is not good, and they acknowledged that, but neither is a constant flow of non-information.

More on topic, I'm excited by the news of CMSF2. The upgrade price is very modest in my opinion, especially given all the work they've had to put into it. News on the website upgrade is good to hear as well. I don't personally have any issues with the current website, but I know they have been trying to upgrade the darn thing for a long time now, and it keeps getting in the way of other projects. It'll be nice to see that problem solved and done with. I'm also glad to hear they have prioritized CMSF2 over the Italy module. While I'm excited for it, it is definitely closer to the bottom of projects that interest me overall. Hopefully we get news of the 4.0 patch soon, and that its good news.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Con on May 31, 2018, 02:15:52 PM
I am a huge fan of battlefront having everyone of their games.  This time around I have not installed any of them on my new PC nor do I plan too.  Its not any one thing but I just feel that the technology/graphics has passed Command Mission by and I am unhappy with the AI, maps, spotting and vision of Battlefront for their franchise. 

In my experience they are having trouble bridging the gap between a small time hobbyist developer and a full time professional one.  They have a built in fanbase so little need for marketing but sometimes you need to spend money to make money and here they need to hire resources such as programming and above all a good project management team that can provide a realistic assessment on release dates and resources needed.  This would also allow them to set a strategy (which games/when patches, new engines etc) rather than stumbling forward into the unknown each time and confusing/disappointing their fans who might have unrealistic expectations.  However those expectations are only allowed to grow in the absence of any communication and successful execution from Battlefront.


Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on May 31, 2018, 03:50:33 PM
I am in the "I will believe it when I see it camp" regardless of the update...to me its the same old same pattern and don't expect it to ever change.  But when the stuff does get released, I am sure I'll buy...I just treat it as a pleasant surprise when it does.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on May 31, 2018, 05:49:24 PM
"That said, to his credit Steve did say that the lack of communication was a mistake on their part, and apologized for it."

I would see that apology and just deal with it, except this has been a pattern for a couple years.

1) natives get restless
2) Steve posts a thread about all the plans
3) Steve continues posting off and on in some Stryker/Ukraine/Russian thread on BFC
4) Months go by with nary a word from BFC on the plans and progress
5) Regular players start to post about the lack of information for a couple months
5) The hardcore beta team members fight delaying actions in the forums until painted into a corner
6) Steve steps in with a new plan and why its so hard to hit schedules

The only difference this time around was the beta team guys started to let slip their own frustrations with the pattern.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on May 31, 2018, 06:39:02 PM
"That said, to his credit Steve did say that the lack of communication was a mistake on their part, and apologized for it."

I would see that apology and just deal with it, except this has been a pattern for a couple years.

1) natives get restless
2) Steve posts a thread about all the plans
3) Steve continues posting off and on in some Stryker/Ukraine/Russian thread on BFC
4) Months go by with nary a word from BFC on the plans and progress
5) Regular players start to post about the lack of information for a couple months
5) The hardcore beta team members fight delaying actions in the forums until painted into a corner
6) Steve steps in with a new plan and why its so hard to hit schedules

The only difference this time around was the beta team guys started to let slip their own frustrations with the pattern.

And I am really at a loss why people get so worked up about it.
They will do what they can do and it will arrive when it arrives ... the length of time it takes to arrive is not proportional to the amount people ask for it. They dont post an update everyone moans. They post an update and get it wrong - and everyone moans. They leave posting an update until they definitely know and everyone moans
I gave up expectation from BFC  long time ago - and just dont worry about it anymore - when stuff comes it is a great day - but simply dont think about it in the interim.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on May 31, 2018, 07:22:51 PM
Steve is just such an easy target. 
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Boggit on May 31, 2018, 07:46:07 PM
"That said, to his credit Steve did say that the lack of communication was a mistake on their part, and apologized for it."

I would see that apology and just deal with it, except this has been a pattern for a couple years.

1) natives get restless
2) Steve posts a thread about all the plans
3) Steve continues posting off and on in some Stryker/Ukraine/Russian thread on BFC
4) Months go by with nary a word from BFC on the plans and progress
5) Regular players start to post about the lack of information for a couple months
5) The hardcore beta team members fight delaying actions in the forums until painted into a corner
6) Steve steps in with a new plan and why its so hard to hit schedules

The only difference this time around was the beta team guys started to let slip their own frustrations with the pattern.

And I am really at a loss why people get so worked up about it.
They will do what they can do and it will arrive when it arrives ... the length of time it takes to arrive is not proportional to the amount people ask for it. They dont post an update everyone moans. They post an update and get it wrong - and everyone moans. They leave posting an update until they definitely know and everyone moans
I gave up expectation from BFC  long time ago - and just dont worry about it anymore - when stuff comes it is a great day - but simply dont think about it in the interim.
+1  O0
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: jomni on May 31, 2018, 07:55:11 PM
+1 just chill and play other games. Play old Battlefront games.  Then rejoice when something new eventually comes out.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Boggit on May 31, 2018, 11:25:07 PM
 :-"

Zulu1966 was right. O0

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/126846-new-bone-threads/

 :smitten: :smitten: :smitten: :smitten: :smitten: :smitten: :smitten:
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Boggit on June 01, 2018, 12:00:56 AM
And more... O0 <:-)

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/126834-a-long-delayed-update/?page=2

 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on June 01, 2018, 01:51:46 AM
And in one of those screen shot is an M106 mortar carrier. Now I am pretty certain that wasn't in the original game ... so this is obviously more than just a cut and paste ... may explain delays... as Steve said.

Looking forward to this.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: MikeGER on June 01, 2018, 07:15:22 AM
And I am really at a loss why people get so worked up about it.

because people and especially 'older'= 'best ager' 'silver ager' Grogs sometimes sense that life is finite.
(impacts getting closer, and there are suddenly fatalities in the peer group of age mates)   

or to put it in a less bitter way: the time where health issues creeping in don't hinder to fully joy a certain game/activity
it suddenly matters if a game, (or a movie, or a book, or item, or technology) gets released in 2018 or 2021

for example eye sight issue that cant be fully compensated with glasses ...and it starts with the small print in some games, that don't scale and you don't want to begin to start playing with windows magnifying glass function, or lower resolution blown up to the screen which results in bigger text but less sharp overall image, you name it... yeah, there are always workarounds, aids and tricks, but its not so much fun if you have to use them
not to speak about mental issue like concentration, memory, multitasking, reflexes,...   

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on June 01, 2018, 07:27:58 AM
And I am really at a loss why people get so worked up about it.

because people and especially 'older'= 'best ager' 'silver ager' Grogs sometimes sense that life is finite.
(impacts getting closer, and there are suddenly fatalities in the peer group of age mates)   

or to put it in a less bitter way: the time where health issues creeping in don't hinder to fully joy a certain game/activity
it suddenly matters if a game, (or a movie, or a book, or item, or technology) gets released in 2018 or 2021

for example eye sight issue that cant be fully compensated with glasses ...and it starts with the small print in some games, that don't scale and you don't want to begin to start playing with windows magnifying glass function, or lower resolution blown up to the screen which results in bigger text but less sharp overall image, you name it...
not to speak about mental issue like concentration, memory, multitasking, reflexes,...

Well I sense what you are saying...i did find however that especially where battlefront are concerned that it is no help at all to that feeling if you wish your life away waiting for the next update. Hence I don't worry about it anymore
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Ssnake51 on June 01, 2018, 07:51:23 AM
And I am really at a loss why people get so worked up about it.
for example eye sight issue that cant be fully compensated with glasses ...and it starts with the small print in some games, that don't scale and you don't want to begin to start playing with windows magnifying glass function, or lower resolution blown up to the screen which results in bigger text but less sharp overall image, you name it... yeah, there are always workarounds, aids and tricks, but its not so much fun if you have to use them

This is one issue that Battlefront has failed to address adequately with their games.  They need to update their UI to include scalable font settings for old farts like myself who are struggling with near vision problems.  Kind of surprising since I would think a large proportion of their fan base are well past their forties. ???
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Thomm on June 01, 2018, 10:00:52 AM
because people and especially 'older'= 'best ager' 'silver ager' Grogs sometimes sense that life is finite.
(impacts getting closer, and there are suddenly fatalities in the peer group of age mates)   

or to put it in a less bitter way: the time where health issues creeping in don't hinder to fully joy a certain game/activity
it suddenly matters if a game, (or a movie, or a book, or item, or technology) gets released in 2018 or 2021

for example eye sight issue that cant be fully compensated with glasses ...and it starts with the small print in some games, that don't scale and you don't want to begin to start playing with windows magnifying glass function, or lower resolution blown up to the screen which results in bigger text but less sharp overall image, you name it... yeah, there are always workarounds, aids and tricks, but its not so much fun if you have to use them
not to speak about mental issue like concentration, memory, multitasking, reflexes,...

Amazing post!! Kind of sums up why I do not play computer games at all, at least at the moment.

Best regards,
Thomm
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Barthheart on June 01, 2018, 10:02:46 AM
because people and especially 'older'= 'best ager' 'silver ager' Grogs sometimes sense that life is finite.
(impacts getting closer, and there are suddenly fatalities in the peer group of age mates)   

or to put it in a less bitter way: the time where health issues creeping in don't hinder to fully joy a certain game/activity
it suddenly matters if a game, (or a movie, or a book, or item, or technology) gets released in 2018 or 2021

for example eye sight issue that cant be fully compensated with glasses ...and it starts with the small print in some games, that don't scale and you don't want to begin to start playing with windows magnifying glass function, or lower resolution blown up to the screen which results in bigger text but less sharp overall image, you name it... yeah, there are always workarounds, aids and tricks, but its not so much fun if you have to use them
not to speak about mental issue like concentration, memory, multitasking, reflexes,...

Amazing post!! Kind of sums up why I do not play computer games at all, at least at the moment.

Best regards,
Thomm

You could read that?  :nerd:
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Thomm on June 01, 2018, 10:05:46 AM
You could read that?  :nerd:

The magic of Ctrl + Mouse Wheel!  :bd:

Best regards,
Thomm
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: IICptMillerII on June 03, 2018, 10:54:20 PM
Another great update from Steve over at BFC concerning the upcoming engine 4 patch:

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/126860-update-on-engine-4-patches/

It appears the infantry bug has been fixed, as well as a slew of other issues and tweaks. Release date for the patch is around the same time as Shock Force 2, which is tentatively set for no later than the end of July of this year. This summer is looking pretty great for Combat Mission fans. I know I'm very excited for everything to come.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on June 04, 2018, 03:29:29 AM
if and when all these new updates come out, i hope i can remember how to install and patch all these things up, especially since i just got a new computer so i imagine iíll have some licensing issue.

guess i have a couple of months to figure it out.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on June 04, 2018, 04:36:40 AM
From the patch update...

"Instead of having dozens of fixes in one patch we'll keep it down to the bare minimum, release a patch fairly quickly, then let some time go by and patch another modest number of fixes, and repeat as often as needed."

This is their "new" strategy for patching.  Steve actually said they never thought of doing it this way until now.  This is the frustrating part of watching the BFC PR machine (known as Steve's updates) operate.  Not only is this a a fairly standard patch strategy for most games, it has been suggested numerous times by their customers as a better strategy than patching only when a new release is about to hit.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on June 04, 2018, 08:02:33 AM
Full text as follows, from here: http://community.battlefront.com/topic/126860-update-on-engine-4-patches/

Quote
Patches for all five existing CM2 Families are coming right on the heals of the CMSF2 release.  This is a lot later than they should be out to you guys, and we are very sorry for it, however we feel realistically that's the best we can do at this point.  That's the short answer for you.

The longer explanation is the nature of CM2 has thrown us a bit of a curveball that requires us to change the way we patch.  In hindsight we should have figured this out months ago, however with our plates as full as they are we didn't see where this would end up until recently.

Since the very beginning of CM1 we pretty much worked on one game at a time.  We'd fix things for the next game, make sure they were working fine, release that game, then patch the previous game.  That worked fine up until the five Family Game Engine 4 Upgrade came out and we now had to make sure that fixes worked equally well for five games all at the same time.  Given the complexity of CM2 games there's a lot that goes into making sure we're not putting out a bad patch and having to go right back into patching again.

The primary problem is with a dozen or two fixes queued up, the chances that a fix might not work correctly, or in fact cause a new problem, for one or more of the five (soon to be six) games is pretty good.  Especially when you consider that the Game Engine code is always being worked on, which means we have to make sure brand new code doesn't mess up things for older releases.  That's a lot of work for our testers.

The solution we came up with is to cut down on the complexity of any one patch.  Instead of having dozens of fixes in one patch we'll keep it down to the bare minimum, release a patch fairly quickly, then let some time go by and patch another modest number of fixes, and repeat as often as needed.  It's too late to adopt this strategy now, so we have to wait until CMSF2 is out the door before going through the patch process.

OK, I can hear some of saying that an alternative solution is to put out "beta patches".  Sorry, no.  As soon as gamers are given something that is called "beta" they start thinking they are beta testers and wanting to have their 2 cents of input on everything.  Not just stuff we're trying to fix but stuff that isn't even broken.  This creates entitlement that we can't possibly live up to, which means we get slammed.  In short, we try to do something good and get treated like bad guys.  No, that's not a road we want to go down.

There you have it.  The long explanation of how we got to this point and our plans for addressing it in the future.

Steve starts out self-deprecating, but can't help himself when it comes to blaming the customers for their shortcomings.

OK, I can hear some of saying that an alternative solution is to put out "beta patches".  Sorry, no.  As soon as gamers are given something that is called "beta" they start thinking they are beta testers and wanting to have their 2 cents of input on everything.  Not just stuff we're trying to fix but stuff that isn't even broken.  This creates entitlement that we can't possibly live up to, which means we get slammed.  In short, we try to do something good and get treated like bad guys.

So remember, troops - it's your fault.

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: jamus34 on June 04, 2018, 08:11:48 AM
Iím not really invested in this discussion one way or the other as I never got into the CM games but that seems like really shoddy PR by BF.

There is probably a dozen ways they could have stated that without blaming their primary stakeholders.  Just seemed unnecessary.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on June 04, 2018, 08:16:14 AM
Battlefront has come a long way since its original pledge of dedication to its fanbase...

Que Zulu to the rescue in 5...4...3...2...1... :2funny:
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mirth on June 04, 2018, 08:19:00 AM
Is anyone really surprised by Steve taking shots at his customer base? That's been a hallmark of BF's marketing strategy for two decades.  :crazy2:
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on June 04, 2018, 08:25:02 AM
WTF?

Quote
I'll be honest, it is time consuming and very distracting to keep conversations going with you guys.  It's not just the time that's involved (which is cumulatively significant), it's the mental energy that goes along for the ride.  It's not helped by the fact that both value and enjoy the conversations here, which I have to be careful doesn't get in the way of the other ton of things that needs doing.  Being here is not exactly like a big slice of Boston Cream Pie with a side scoop of vanilla ice cream kind of temptation, but in game development terms it's kinda in the same ballpark ;)  Tough to strike the right balance sometimes.

This guy thinks he is a Kanye West level genius... ::)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mirth on June 04, 2018, 08:28:50 AM
Pesky customers, taking up time and energy.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Sir Slash on June 04, 2018, 10:07:59 AM
We are a bother. Sometimes.  ::)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on June 04, 2018, 11:17:27 AM
I love playing CM, but every time Steve posts about how terrible his customers are, I want to yank my dongle off...my PC.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mirth on June 04, 2018, 11:18:36 AM
I love playing CM, but every time Steve posts about how terrible his customers are, I want to yank my dongle off...my PC.

ouch
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on June 04, 2018, 12:30:57 PM
Battlefront has come a long way since its original pledge of dedication to its fanbase...

Que Zulu to the rescue in 5...4...3...2...1... :2funny:
;D .... I think that is what most developers think. It may not be good PR but it has always been Steves brutal honesty that has endeared him to me.

I guess they could do with some professional PR people in most people's view ... But I have run across a lot of PR people in my time and all have left me with the feeling that they 're nothing more than bullshitters.

IF that is what Steve thinks ... and as I say most developers think the same ... then say it.

There is too little honesty in the world and I am much more interested in their game than their manners ... the reverse appears to be true for many.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mirth on June 04, 2018, 12:49:58 PM
IF that is what Steve thinks ... and as I say most developers think the same ... then say it.

Most of the time, developers are never allowed to talk to clients/customers so what they think of them is irrelevant from a PR standpoint. As a developer, I can assure you that me telling clients they are a hassle would quickly put me in the unemployment line.

Most people giving your company money don't care for you calling them idiots. Business is funny like that.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on June 04, 2018, 01:00:04 PM
there is also a line between honesty and just being an a$$hole. Steve seems to blur that line.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mirth on June 04, 2018, 01:00:32 PM
that too.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: bbmike on June 04, 2018, 01:25:36 PM
IF that is what Steve thinks ... and as I say most developers think the same ... then say it.

Most of the time, developers are never allowed to talk to clients/customers so what they think of them is irrelevant from a PR standpoint. As a developer, I can assure you that me telling clients they are a hassle would quickly put me in the unemployment line.

Most people giving your company money don't care for you calling them idiots. Business is funny like that.

So you have Tom Smykowski take the specifications from the customers and bring them down to the software engineers?  :-"

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mirth on June 04, 2018, 01:40:20 PM
So you have Tom Smykowski take the specifications from the customers and bring them down to the software engineers?  :-"



exactly!
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on June 04, 2018, 02:05:34 PM
IF that is what Steve thinks ... and as I say most developers think the same ... then say it.

Most of the time, developers are never allowed to talk to clients/customers so what they think of them is irrelevant from a PR standpoint. As a developer, I can assure you that me telling clients they are a hassle would quickly put me in the unemployment line.

Most people giving your company money don't care for you calling them idiots. Business is funny like that.

You see again  .... This is the bit I don't get. I didn't see anywhere in what he wrote where he called anyone an idiot.

He merely said giving people access to something called a beta would engender comments and suggestions outside of what it was they needed to specifically test. When those suggestions are denied and not dealt with because of that a whole sea of crap ensues because people will then say BF don't listen and haven't fixed or implemented something that was never the intention  in the first place.

That's what I read in the post...nothing more ... yet you read he was calling people idiots. I guess we all take different interpretations from the same set of words in the same order.

I think what he said is exactly what would happen. Can't see
why that's being an asshole either...just stating a fact and why they wouldn't release a beta patch.

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mirth on June 04, 2018, 02:10:46 PM
You see again  .... This is the bit I don't get. I didn't see anywhere in what he wrote where he called anyone an idiot.

He merely said giving people access to something called a beta would engender comments and suggestions outside of what it was they needed to specifically test. When those suggestions are denied and not dealt with because of that a whole sea of crap ensues because people will then say BF don't listen and haven't fixed or implemented something that was never the intention  in the first place.

That's what I read in the post...nothing more ... yet you read he was calling people idiots. I guess we all take different interpretations from the same set of words in the same order.

I was referring to his historical behavior which has routinely been antagonistic towards customers. You can claim otherwise, but I've witnessed it enough times in the past 15 years to know better.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on June 04, 2018, 03:08:45 PM
IF that is what Steve thinks ... and as I say most developers think the same ... then say it.

Most of the time, developers are never allowed to talk to clients/customers so what they think of them is irrelevant from a PR standpoint. As a developer, I can assure you that me telling clients they are a hassle would quickly put me in the unemployment line.

Most people giving your company money don't care for you calling them idiots. Business is funny like that.

You see again  .... This is the bit I don't get. I didn't see anywhere in what he wrote where he called anyone an idiot.

He merely said giving people access to something called a beta would engender comments and suggestions outside of what it was they needed to specifically test. When those suggestions are denied and not dealt with because of that a whole sea of crap ensues because people will then say BF don't listen and haven't fixed or implemented something that was never the intention  in the first place.

That's what I read in the post...nothing more ... yet you read he was calling people idiots. I guess we all take different interpretations from the same set of words in the same order.

I think what he said is exactly what would happen. Can't see
why that's being an asshole either...just stating a fact and why they wouldn't release a beta patch.

The thing you're missing is that entire paragraph where he describes his customers as being needy, unrealistic and an aggravation was unnecessary. He started out by apologizing for the delay in communication, laid out the plan, and then dropped that gigantic strawman down. It was the first post in the thread. No one even had a chance to suggest beta patches, or whatever. He just dreamed it up and called out his customers. If he had ended his post immediately before that para, the message would have been that much stronger. And if some chucklehead on his forum did bring up "beta patches" or whatever he's talking about, the fan boy brigade there would probably have trounced them.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on June 05, 2018, 12:15:29 AM
I am not missing anything. I just don't read or interpret it in the way you do. Again especially using some of the language you do.

I am not saying he couldn't say things in a more diplomatic way sometimes . Just that I don't really care whether he does or not.

I certainly don't read what he said in that post anything like with the inference around what he "thinks" of his customers ... which is I suspect with a great deal of gratitude ... which he has also said in many different ways and on many different occasions.

Strangely, people seem less interested in repeating those than making an awful lot out of what I see as very little in a negative way.

Which is I guess the way the world works.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Toonces on June 05, 2018, 02:05:37 PM


The magic of Ctrl + Mouse Wheel!  :bd:


I didn't know you could do that!  Thomm bad eyesight life hack FTW! 
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Pete Dero on June 20, 2018, 06:02:59 AM
https://www.wargamer.fr/combat-mission-shock-force-2-premieres-images/

(https://i2.wp.com/www.wargamer.fr/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/combat-mission-shock-force-2-0618-05.jpg?ssl=1)

(https://i1.wp.com/www.wargamer.fr/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/combat-mission-shock-force-2-0618-07.jpg?ssl=1)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Pete Dero on June 20, 2018, 06:06:13 AM
https://www.wargamer.fr/combat-mission-red-thunder-screenshots-du-prochain-module/

https://www.wargamer.fr/cm-fortress-italy-rome-to-victory-screenshots/
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Apocalypse 31 on June 20, 2018, 09:17:30 AM
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-zjvLqq87MS0/Wykf2yTPtpI/AAAAAAAADkA/VNUOFLTe_qII07g29Xo5QELI3u7edpfqgCLcBGAs/s1600/10.png)

Yeah. Nope.

Looks like the same CMx2 game engine...the same engine that was developed in the 1990s.

You can slap all the lipstick on that pig, but it still looks like crap (HELLO? Shadows? ANTI ALIASING?) and performs like crap.

Edit: I am so disappointed.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on June 20, 2018, 12:02:41 PM
The performance is what I can't get over.  My brother upgrades his computer frequently and with each nVidia card, 850, 940, 1050, and then 1060, the performance of CM seems to get worse.  His latest is an i7-8700 with a single core processor speed of 4GHz and a 1080 and he gets 27 fps in Barkman's Corner ( a mid-sized scenario in CMBN.)

My old Dell laptop running Win7 and an A10 AMD chip with a five year old Radeon chipset runs it at 30 fps.  We have tried everything with the new computer to no avail.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Apocalypse 31 on June 20, 2018, 12:25:11 PM
The performance is what I can't get over.  My brother upgrades his computer frequently and with each nVidia card, 850, 940, 1050, and then 1060, the performance of CM seems to get worse.  His latest is an i7-8700 with a single core processor speed of 4GHz and a 1080 and he gets 27 fps in Barkman's Corner ( a mid-sized scenario in CMBN.)

My old Dell laptop running Win7 and an A10 AMD chip with a five year old Radeon chipset runs it at 30 fps.  We have tried everything with the new computer to no avail.

Exactly!

I'd be ok with the graphics, if the game AT LEAST ran smoothly. But it doesn't, and can't handle large maps either.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on June 20, 2018, 12:29:35 PM
btw, the FPSs I quoted are locked to the Panther at level 2 for the entire first 10 turns.  No no movement of the tank or the camera.  I have always used that as a benchmark.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on June 20, 2018, 12:51:52 PM
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-zjvLqq87MS0/Wykf2yTPtpI/AAAAAAAADkA/VNUOFLTe_qII07g29Xo5QELI3u7edpfqgCLcBGAs/s1600/10.png)

Yeah. Nope.

Looks like the same CMx2 game engine...the same engine that was developed in the 1990s.

You can slap all the lipstick on that pig, but it still looks like crap (HELLO? Shadows? ANTI ALIASING?) and performs like crap.

Edit: I am so disappointed.

Looks fantastic. Can't wait for the release. CMSF was released in 2007 so palpably not the 90's and palpably not the same engine as CMX1

I find it quite easy to set anti aliasing and shadows in the interface both of which are supported and run great from a performance point of view.

I was going to post a couple of screenshots of that other game with the total war level of graphics that can deliver a map like that with the same excellent realistic representation of tactical engagements that CMX2 does. But couldn't remeber what it was called. Perhaps as you obviously know what it is you can oblige for me
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on June 20, 2018, 01:16:12 PM
^
(https://pre00.deviantart.net/f5e4/th/pre/i/2015/112/f/5/here_he_comes_to_save_the_day____mighty_mouse_by_colorfulartist86-d63lgzs.png)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mirth on June 20, 2018, 01:19:42 PM
^ :DD
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on June 20, 2018, 02:31:41 PM
These look pretty good.

I have never embedded a pic before so here are a couple links to some pics...

http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/55-we-love-screenshots/?do=findComment&comment=182878

http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/55-we-love-screenshots/?do=findComment&comment=181606

http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/55-we-love-screenshots/?do=findComment&comment=175229

Before anyone says it...You can easily play SB at the same level as CM, especially after the last update.  You can play in vehicle, outside vehicle, by platoon/squad, from an elevated position (as in CM), or by map (looks more like a real map).  I play hours and never enter a vehicle.

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Apocalypse 31 on June 20, 2018, 03:05:07 PM
Quote
I play hours and never enter a vehicle

I normally like the "big picture" perspective, but damn, it feels good to sling some HEAT every now and then.

Also, the infantry in SB are really bad, as in, not working properly. They have problems engaging that, according to the developers, has to do with pathfinding.

Edit: Have you seen the SB screenshots with the new shading?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Apocalypse 31 on June 20, 2018, 03:08:35 PM
(https://assets.rockpapershotgun.com/images/2018/01/SS_14_08_55-768x321.jpg)

(https://assets.rockpapershotgun.com/images/2018/01/sim200a-768x406.jpg)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on June 20, 2018, 03:39:43 PM
These look pretty good.

I have never embedded a pic before so here are a couple links to some pics...

http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/55-we-love-screenshots/?do=findComment&comment=182878

http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/55-we-love-screenshots/?do=findComment&comment=181606

http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/55-we-love-screenshots/?do=findComment&comment=175229

Before anyone says it...You can easily play SB at the same level as CM, especially after the last update.  You can play in vehicle, outside vehicle, by platoon/squad, from an elevated position (as in CM), or by map (looks more like a real map).  I play hours and never enter a vehicle.

Yes I have  SB and those shots look good. But really I van point you to.many CM screenshots that loom just as good taking at the right.time.and angle and really there' is nothing in those shots I can see that particularly elevates it above CM. Certainly in game I find the SB environments much less aesthetic than CM.

Yes can play SB at a certain level yo sort of mimic CM but it is not des8gned for that by any stretch of the imagination. It is first and foremost simulator of vehicles. And in that respect nothing like CM.

CM IS not perfect and graphics with a lot more resource and money could be.better bit as a proper war game it is still miles ahead and I don't marry up what I see in game which I believe with a good map maker is highly effective with the vitriol others seem to heap on it graphically.

I run a not particularly new or high spec machine and never had an issue running the.game.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on June 20, 2018, 08:29:41 PM
I'm not saying SB is better than CM.  Just that other tactical games have good graphics too.  Frankly, you lose some credibility discussing CM graphics.  They are incredibly dated.  Are they serviceable?  Yes.  Have they improved them in the last two years?  No.  They were almost dated on release of CMSF, let  alone a game released a year ago.

I see you say CM isn't perfect, yet even the slightest hint at some saying something negative about CM and you are right there with a comment about how great this or that is.  CM's performance on any hardware from the last three years is bad.  There is no way around it.  They hitched themselves to a technology that was dying 10 years ago when they released CMSF.

I love playing the games.  But I am sick to my stomach over how they have petered away the support of a broader community with how they release product, keep the engine up to date, and talk to their customers.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Apocalypse 31 on June 20, 2018, 10:27:43 PM
Well said.

Another example of how bad map sizes are in CM.

A 4x4 km Combat Mission area overlayed on a regular Steel Beasts map.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on June 21, 2018, 04:49:28 AM
SB has some similar issues to CM in that it doesn't take complete advantage of modern PC architecture.  But they are continuously improving both the graphics engine and the game.  Every release moves the engine forward.  Just in the last few years, they added 64 bit support, improved lighting, improved textures, and significantly improved terrain.  They are planning on releasing a major terrain upgrade that should bring the terrain engine into a very modern look.  This is because they made the conscious decision to rewrite significant parts of the engine.  And that all hinges on having chosen the right technology and the willingness to invest in the labor for changing the engine.

Of course, SB has the military contracts backing it.  That is good and bad.  While it helps their funding, it also slows major improvements at times.  BFC, if they were a little more savvy, could also have gone down the DoD route a little further.  But there is limited applicability for CM's mechanics in the army and Steve just seems to not want to pursue it.

And, as much as I hate the dongle, it is no worse than the hoops I jump through for CM's licensing system.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on June 23, 2018, 05:38:38 PM
As devil's advocate, why would you need a map bigger than 4km by 4km for a battalion-level simulation? All you're doing is making the advance to contact longer.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Staggerwing on June 23, 2018, 06:48:18 PM
These look pretty good.

I have never embedded a pic before so here are a couple links to some pics...

http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/55-we-love-screenshots/?do=findComment&comment=182878

http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/55-we-love-screenshots/?do=findComment&comment=181606

http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/55-we-love-screenshots/?do=findComment&comment=175229

Before anyone says it...You can easily play SB at the same level as CM, especially after the last update.  You can play in vehicle, outside vehicle, by platoon/squad, from an elevated position (as in CM), or by map (looks more like a real map).  I play hours and never enter a vehicle.





Makes me want to insert my dongle in the nearest USB port...
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on June 23, 2018, 06:53:35 PM
Let's face it...  In CM you are dropped in right in range of most of the weapons on the board.  There is almost no planning.  SB lets you do some recon, form a plan, and maneuver.  You don't have to use a 4x4 map in SB.  In fact, you can use a large map and restrict it to a smaller area.  But you have the option and the game can handle it if you want to do it.  I have seen SB scenarios where you only control one part of the entire larger blue force and the AI handles flanks.  The AI can be scripted by a designer with an immense amount of options to react to things happening around the map.

It took me a long time to change how I built scenarios from CM to SB.  I was so used to having units start in range and the firefights starting within minutes.  In SB, you have the freedom to not do that.  I can't count the number of CM scenarios I have played where either starting forces or reinforcements enter the board in battle or even in the middle of an enemy formation.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on June 23, 2018, 08:54:21 PM
Let's face it...  In CM you are dropped in right in range of most of the weapons on the board.  There is almost no planning.  SB lets you do some recon, form a plan, and maneuver.  You don't have to use a 4x4 map in SB.  In fact, you can use a large map and restrict it to a smaller area.  But you have the option and the game can handle it if you want to do it.  I have seen SB scenarios where you only control one part of the entire larger blue force and the AI handles flanks.  The AI can be scripted by a designer with an immense amount of options to react to things happening around the map.

It took me a long time to change how I built scenarios from CM to SB.  I was so used to having units start in range and the firefights starting within minutes.  In SB, you have the freedom to not do that.  I can't count the number of CM scenarios I have played where either starting forces or reinforcements enter the board in battle or even in the middle of an enemy formation.

I'd say blame the scenario designers rather than the game. For World War II weapons, 4km isn't battle range. I think 1km would be pushing it, certainly in western Europe. (Desert and Russian steppe are exceptions, and neither theatre has been covered yet.) You may have a point for CMSF2, but that might just speak more to the fact the engine is less suited for modern warfare than its bread and butter.

The point of CM was never to have a large recon and operations planning element - it's really the wrong scale for that, especially given the limitations of the C2 links. It's designed to let you fight a battalion. Most battalions had extremely limited recon capabilities (a British battalion in Normandy had a single platoon of scouts and snipers).

Sounds like the criticism is that CM isn't more like TacOps. I'd suggest to get that experience...you play TacOps. :-)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on June 23, 2018, 08:59:31 PM
Looks like Steve has discussed this at BFC:

Note about map size and engagement ranges. The notion that massive maps are a prerequisite for modern combat is false. Engagement ranges have changed very little since WW2. A King Tiger was just as capable of hitting a target at 4km as an Abrams. What's changed is the effectiveness and flexibility of engagement at longer ranges, making a 4km shot from an Abrams far more likely to hit a target at 4km than a King Tiger. But check out modern AARs from real warfare and you're going to be hard pressed to find 4km engagements and even those aren't going to be all that fun to simulate (i.e. tank sniping at long range is BORING). The desire for larger maps is fine, just don't confuse opinion with fact when it comes to their necessity.


Allied studies showed that German tank and anti-tank units in NW Europe generally opened fire at ranges of I think 500 to 700 metres. I suspect due to the terrain and LOS limitations but also AIUI to assist in accurate gunnery, and most likely to prevent Allied units from simply going to ground and calling down artillery and air on them.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Bardolph on June 23, 2018, 09:36:44 PM
Quote
A King Tiger was just as capable of hitting a target at 4km as an Abrams. What's changed is the effectiveness and flexibility of engagement at longer ranges, making a 4km shot from an Abrams far more likely to hit a target at 4km than a King Tiger.

Do what?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: demjansk1942 on June 24, 2018, 03:36:13 AM
Battlefront never figured out that they could put their games on steam and have occasional 50% off sales and everyone in the whole world would probably own a copy...They could never see past their own noses when it came to marketing or strategy.  What's better, 10,000 owning a copy at 50.00 or 500,000 owning a copy at 20.00 ?  The world has left battlefront behind unfortunately.  I do like the idea of the catalog available on gog though.

So true
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: demjansk1942 on June 24, 2018, 03:42:06 AM
If Steam can work for Matrix and Eagle Dynamics, I can't see how a transition to Steam would be a bad thing for BFC.
B17




I seriously donít understand why a company WOULDNT go to steam. I donít bother with Battlefront games ever since the disaster I had trying to update to the new engine and a subsequent patching info. The latter never resolved by a company that didnít seem to care. Regardless, Iíd buy every single one of their games if they were on steam since I donít have to worry about buying patches, DRM and activating subscription crap

I agree, I was a big supporter of all their games.  However, all the upgrades and patching problems, forget it.  I like Steam and it makes it really easy.  That's the Key word = EASY!!!  If it ain't easy, most will not bother.  Maybe Matrix could get the titles or release the code for mods.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on June 24, 2018, 05:17:07 AM
Let's face it...  In CM you are dropped in right in range of most of the weapons on the board.  There is almost no planning.  SB lets you do some recon, form a plan, and maneuver.  You don't have to use a 4x4 map in SB.  In fact, you can use a large map and restrict it to a smaller area.  But you have the option and the game can handle it if you want to do it.  I have seen SB scenarios where you only control one part of the entire larger blue force and the AI handles flanks.  The AI can be scripted by a designer with an immense amount of options to react to things happening around the map.

It took me a long time to change how I built scenarios from CM to SB.  I was so used to having units start in range and the firefights starting within minutes.  In SB, you have the freedom to not do that.  I can't count the number of CM scenarios I have played where either starting forces or reinforcements enter the board in battle or even in the middle of an enemy formation.

I'd say blame the scenario designers rather than the game. For World War II weapons, 4km isn't battle range. I think 1km would be pushing it, certainly in western Europe. (Desert and Russian steppe are exceptions, and neither theatre has been covered yet.) You may have a point for CMSF2, but that might just speak more to the fact the engine is less suited for modern warfare than its bread and butter.

The point of CM was never to have a large recon and operations planning element - it's really the wrong scale for that, especially given the limitations of the C2 links. It's designed to let you fight a battalion. Most battalions had extremely limited recon capabilities (a British battalion in Normandy had a single platoon of scouts and snipers).

Sounds like the criticism is that CM isn't more like TacOps. I'd suggest to get that experience...you play TacOps. :-)

No, you play Steel Beasts.  The main issue is that in large scenarios you have several issues in CM...

1) Large maps are dogs in modern computers
2) Even in some of the larger maps in CM, those units start right on top of each other
3) it might be theoretically the designers fault, but they aren't given the tools needed to do anything else

I love playing CM.  It is a great game.  But it has and mostly always will be a computer version of table top miniatures.  Steel Beats is more like a tactical combat simulator.  It can be hard and mundane at times.  But if you want to see some realistic (I think) combined arms combat, its pretty much the only game in town.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Destraex on June 24, 2018, 07:15:23 AM
Let's face it...  In CM you are dropped in right in range of most of the weapons on the board.  There is almost no planning.  SB lets you do some recon, form a plan, and maneuver.  You don't have to use a 4x4 map in SB.  In fact, you can use a large map and restrict it to a smaller area.  But you have the option and the game can handle it if you want to do it.  I have seen SB scenarios where you only control one part of the entire larger blue force and the AI handles flanks.  The AI can be scripted by a designer with an immense amount of options to react to things happening around the map.

It took me a long time to change how I built scenarios from CM to SB.  I was so used to having units start in range and the firefights starting within minutes.  In SB, you have the freedom to not do that.  I can't count the number of CM scenarios I have played where either starting forces or reinforcements enter the board in battle or even in the middle of an enemy formation.

I'd say blame the scenario designers rather than the game. For World War II weapons, 4km isn't battle range. I think 1km would be pushing it, certainly in western Europe. (Desert and Russian steppe are exceptions, and neither theatre has been covered yet.) You may have a point for CMSF2, but that might just speak more to the fact the engine is less suited for modern warfare than its bread and butter.

The point of CM was never to have a large recon and operations planning element - it's really the wrong scale for that, especially given the limitations of the C2 links. It's designed to let you fight a battalion. Most battalions had extremely limited recon capabilities (a British battalion in Normandy had a single platoon of scouts and snipers).

Sounds like the criticism is that CM isn't more like TacOps. I'd suggest to get that experience...you play TacOps. :-)

I thought that a lot of the time effective tank engagement ranges in ww2 were measured in hundreds of meters not kilometres.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on June 24, 2018, 08:13:44 AM
I thought that a lot of the time effective tank engagement ranges in ww2 were measured in hundreds of meters not kilometres.

Yes, I mention that in the post right after the one you quoted. As I understand it, your understanding is correct.

The ammunition table for the 8.8cm PaK 43 shows a possibility of hitting out to 4,000 meters. Not the same weapon as on the Tiger II, but just as useful for purposes of the discussion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.8_cm_Pak_43

But according to the studies I've seen of Allied tank losses, the actual engagement ranges were much lower than the theoretical maximum range for the reasons mentioned above.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on June 24, 2018, 03:09:23 PM
Battlefront never figured out that they could put their games on steam and have occasional 50% off sales and everyone in the whole world would probably own a copy...They could never see past their own noses when it came to marketing or strategy.  What's better, 10,000 owning a copy at 50.00 or 500,000 owning a copy at 20.00 ?  The world has left battlefront behind unfortunately.  I do like the idea of the catalog available on gog though.

So true

Well actually - in relation to steam that is complete and utter bullshit. This dumbass idea that all you have to do is merely put a game on steam and you automatically have tens of thousands of sales only gets stated by those who have a complete ignorance of how it works in reality.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on June 24, 2018, 03:10:09 PM
As devil's advocate, why would you need a map bigger than 4km by 4km for a battalion-level simulation? All you're doing is making the advance to contact longer.

Well actually - CM is much more a company level game - which only begs the question more.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on June 24, 2018, 03:12:06 PM
Let's face it...  In CM you are dropped in right in range of most of the weapons on the board.  There is almost no planning.  SB lets you do some recon, form a plan, and maneuver.  You don't have to use a 4x4 map in SB.  In fact, you can use a large map and restrict it to a smaller area.  But you have the option and the game can handle it if you want to do it.  I have seen SB scenarios where you only control one part of the entire larger blue force and the AI handles flanks.  The AI can be scripted by a designer with an immense amount of options to react to things happening around the map.

It took me a long time to change how I built scenarios from CM to SB.  I was so used to having units start in range and the firefights starting within minutes.  In SB, you have the freedom to not do that.  I can't count the number of CM scenarios I have played where either starting forces or reinforcements enter the board in battle or even in the middle of an enemy formation.




I'd say blame the scenario designers rather than the game. For World War II weapons, 4km isn't battle range. I think 1km would be pushing it, certainly in western Europe. (Desert and Russian steppe are exceptions, and neither theatre has been covered yet.) You may have a point for CMSF2, but that might just speak more to the fact the engine is less suited for modern warfare than its bread and butter.

The point of CM was never to have a large recon and operations planning element - it's really the wrong scale for that, especially given the limitations of the C2 links. It's designed to let you fight a battalion. Most battalions had extremely limited recon capabilities (a British battalion in Normandy had a single platoon of scouts and snipers).

Sounds like the criticism is that CM isn't more like TacOps. I'd suggest to get that experience...you play TacOps. :-)

No, you play Steel Beasts.  The main issue is that in large scenarios you have several issues in CM...

1) Large maps are dogs in modern computers
2) Even in some of the larger maps in CM, those units start right on top of each other
3) it might be theoretically the designers fault, but they aren't given the tools needed to do anything else

I love playing CM.  It is a great game.  But it has and mostly always will be a computer version of table top miniatures.  Steel Beats is more like a tactical combat simulator.  It can be hard and mundane at times.  But if you want to see some realistic (I think) combined arms combat, its pretty much the only game in town.

I really dont see why you keep comparing the two games - they are completely different - and in the realms of what CM does the map sizes are more than adequate for what it is trying to portray.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mirth on June 24, 2018, 03:15:31 PM
Translation: I  :smitten: Combat Mission always and 4 ever!!!
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on June 24, 2018, 04:10:42 PM
Let's face it...  In CM you are dropped in right in range of most of the weapons on the board.  There is almost no planning.  SB lets you do some recon, form a plan, and maneuver.  You don't have to use a 4x4 map in SB.  In fact, you can use a large map and restrict it to a smaller area.  But you have the option and the game can handle it if you want to do it.  I have seen SB scenarios where you only control one part of the entire larger blue force and the AI handles flanks.  The AI can be scripted by a designer with an immense amount of options to react to things happening around the map.

It took me a long time to change how I built scenarios from CM to SB.  I was so used to having units start in range and the firefights starting within minutes.  In SB, you have the freedom to not do that.  I can't count the number of CM scenarios I have played where either starting forces or reinforcements enter the board in battle or even in the middle of an enemy formation.




I'd say blame the scenario designers rather than the game. For World War II weapons, 4km isn't battle range. I think 1km would be pushing it, certainly in western Europe. (Desert and Russian steppe are exceptions, and neither theatre has been covered yet.) You may have a point for CMSF2, but that might just speak more to the fact the engine is less suited for modern warfare than its bread and butter.

The point of CM was never to have a large recon and operations planning element - it's really the wrong scale for that, especially given the limitations of the C2 links. It's designed to let you fight a battalion. Most battalions had extremely limited recon capabilities (a British battalion in Normandy had a single platoon of scouts and snipers).

Sounds like the criticism is that CM isn't more like TacOps. I'd suggest to get that experience...you play TacOps. :-)

No, you play Steel Beasts.  The main issue is that in large scenarios you have several issues in CM...

1) Large maps are dogs in modern computers
2) Even in some of the larger maps in CM, those units start right on top of each other
3) it might be theoretically the designers fault, but they aren't given the tools needed to do anything else

I love playing CM.  It is a great game.  But it has and mostly always will be a computer version of table top miniatures.  Steel Beats is more like a tactical combat simulator.  It can be hard and mundane at times.  But if you want to see some realistic (I think) combined arms combat, its pretty much the only game in town.

I really dont see why you keep comparing the two games - they are completely different - and in the realms of what CM does the map sizes are more than adequate for what it is trying to portray.

Because the way you can play, and the way I play, they are very similar.  In the last couple of years, updates to infantry, camera management, replays, and map controls allow you to play just like CM.  It lacks a little on the infantry side, but more than makes up for it in the AFV, support, logistics, and engineering side of things.  I thought I had said that before quite a few times.

Every now and then, I go back to CM and play around with it, but the shininess wears off after a bit.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Toonces on June 28, 2018, 07:41:56 AM

Well actually - in relation to steam that is complete and utter bullshit. This dumbass idea that all you have to do is merely put a game on steam and you automatically have tens of thousands of sales only gets stated by those who have a complete ignorance of how it works in reality.

How does it work in reality, then?

I'm not saying your wrong, but my experience with Steam would seem to contradict you.  I have literally hundreds of games that I haven't even installed, let alone played, because of impulse buys during Steam sales, or just seeing something neat pop up on my Steam page.  The chances of me happening upon some specific game developer site, and then going through any sort of "process" to buy a game is very, very low these days, unless word of mouth here on Grogheads directs me there. 

But on any given day, who knows what I might buy when I log onto Steam? 

Again, maybe I'm wrong, but heck, I've got most of the Graviteam catalog and haven't played most of them, because they're on Steam and i just find myself buying the bundles, or picking up DLC to be "complete".  But that's because it's on Steam and it's easy.  I don't feel compelled to search out BFC and have to fuss about how to patch and all that nonsense.

So...no I don't agree with you.  But I'm certainly interested in how I have it wrong.  I don't actually know how Steam "works" other than they offer a lot of games, and it couldn't be easier to buy them there.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: WargamerJoe on June 28, 2018, 08:17:44 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if there's an element of stubborness going on here, as well as some truth to the matter. Steam isn't the wonderful saviour we as consumers sometimes think it is.

My memory is a little fuzzy, but I'm pretty just JD McNeil at one point was like "We will never be on Steam", and in 2014 was definitely "We will never engage in Steam Sales". "Race to the bottom" is an actual quote I have from him in an old work notebook I think - now look where they are.

But it's not easy - you have to pay Steam their cut of the sales, you have to do a not-insignificant amount of dev work to make sure your game is compatible with Steam. You wouldn't believe the nonsense I overheard while working at Matrix's offices as they struggled with Steam's back-end and submitting builds to Valve.

He's right in that discoverability is difficult, but it depends on the genre. 'Strategy' has a rough time because you get listing for everything form CounterStrike to trash F2P games. 'Wargame' as a search term is actually quite clean - some trash and odd projects, but largely Graviteam, Matrix, the independents... as long as you tag the game correctly you'll be found by people who know what they're looking for.

Getting on the home-page now, or appealing to people who DON'T know what they're looking for... now that'd be more difficult, but then I don't remember seeing Slitherine on the Steam front page that often either, and afaik they're happy enough with the Steam business.

But if you can have a games like Gary Grigsby's behemoths, or Strategic Command exist on Steam then I'm sure Combat Mission would be fine.

Again, It's probably not going to be easy for them. I doubt they designed the game to work with something like Steam. I'm not 100% sure of their business model (making you buy patches and games multiple times?), I suspect that might not be steam friendly either. It'd be a lot of work to get everything complaint.

So tl;dtr, they're not wrong in their stance, but their stance is probably also got a small amount of stubbornness and lazyness wrapped within it. My experience of the last couple of years suggest Grogs don't take to change quickly.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mirth on June 28, 2018, 08:20:02 AM
I'm trying to figure out how having the CM games on Steam would be worse than the current DRM and patch/update bullshit system BF uses, but then I'm just a simple caveman


(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-D81PnazWfTo/UzsahcsrJ8I/AAAAAAAAEFU/2zNuzhkipQk/s1600/unfrozencavemanlawyer.jpg)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: bbmike on June 28, 2018, 08:32:25 AM
Maybe some sort of dongle system would simplify things.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mirth on June 28, 2018, 08:34:08 AM
Maybe some sort of dongle system would simplify things.

 :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on June 28, 2018, 08:36:36 AM
Maybe some sort of dongle system would simplify things.

 :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD

Why is this funny? It actually would.

As annoying as the dongle is, I far prefer it to the frustrating and confusing mess of BFG's current system.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mirth on June 28, 2018, 08:37:39 AM
Why is this funny? It actually would.

As annoying as the dongle is, I far prefer it to the frustrating and confusing mess of BFG's current system.

that just makes it funnier
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Toonces on June 28, 2018, 08:52:21 AM
Maybe CM doesn't make it prime time on the home page.  But I get all sorts of recommendations based on my library.  I know I've seen quite a few Matrix/Slitherine games pop up on there.

Or, say I find myself on Graviteam Tactics' page.  Down below there will be other games I might like, and there's Combat Mission staring at me.  I click the link, find myself on their page, and say, "Heck this looks interesting and it's only $10, I think I'll give it a try."  Boom, sale.

No doubt there will be some programming pain to get it Steam compatible (I hadn't considered that, actually), but that's that.  It doesn't diminish the usefulness of Steam as a platform to get the word out.

Anyway, I'm just here to enjoy the discussion.  CM isn't a game I play very often.  One of the two I have installed doesn't even work because the DRM is somehow hosed up, and I can't be bothered to figure out how to fix it.  Steam works; I'll stick with that for my game purchases.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on June 28, 2018, 09:17:48 AM
Why is this funny? It actually would.

As annoying as the dongle is, I far prefer it to the frustrating and confusing mess of BFG's current system.

that just makes it funnier

 :clap: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny:
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Queeg on June 28, 2018, 09:41:42 AM
SteamSpy lists Ultimate General: Civil War as having 100,000-200,000 owners and 134,000 players (the latter data is described as "experimental").  Not sure if those figures reflect Steam-only sales or include purchases elsewhere linked through Steam, but I expect the vast majority are Steam purchases.  Those numbers (assuming they're accurate) aren't insubstantial for what is pretty much a niche title.     
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: WargamerJoe on June 28, 2018, 10:24:38 AM
SteamSpy lists Ultimate General: Civil War as having 100,000-200,000 owners and 134,000 players (the latter data is described as "experimental").  Not sure if those figures reflect Steam-only sales or include purchases elsewhere linked through Steam, but I expect the vast majority are Steam purchases.  Those numbers (assuming they're accurate) aren't insubstantial for what is pretty much a niche title.   

To be fair, these kinds of examples can lead people to get carried away though. UGCW and CM aren't really the same game (and that does matter to some extend, but not a lot) so it doesn't quite apply. Although I agree, it proves that wargames can work on steam and I think they're being facetious if they're hinting otherwise, but their other concerns do have more merit.

There is of course also the steam rating system to contend with. If Battlefront really do have some controversial business practices, I can see their games just getting review-bombed out of spite.

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on June 28, 2018, 02:11:27 PM

Well actually - in relation to steam that is complete and utter bullshit. This dumbass idea that all you have to do is merely put a game on steam and you automatically have tens of thousands of sales only gets stated by those who have a complete ignorance of how it works in reality.

How does it work in reality, then?

I'm not saying your wrong, but my experience with Steam would seem to contradict you.  I have literally hundreds of games that I haven't even installed, let alone played, because of impulse buys during Steam sales, or just seeing something neat pop up on my Steam page.  The chances of me happening upon some specific game developer site, and then going through any sort of "process" to buy a game is very, very low these days, unless word of mouth here on Grogheads directs me there. 

But on any given day, who knows what I might buy when I log onto Steam? 

Again, maybe I'm wrong, but heck, I've got most of the Graviteam catalog and haven't played most of them, because they're on Steam and i just find myself buying the bundles, or picking up DLC to be "complete".  But that's because it's on Steam and it's easy.  I don't feel compelled to search out BFC and have to fuss about how to patch and all that nonsense.

So...no I don't agree with you.  But I'm certainly interested in how I have it wrong.  I don't actually know how Steam "works" other than they offer a lot of games, and it couldn't be easier to buy them there.

I don't know mate. Try reading this.

www.pcgamer.com/gdcs-realistic-talk-about-game-sales-on-steam-paints-a-grim-picture/

I know of this guy and he is someone who speaks from.experience  which is I suspect not something you do.

Regardless of the above and other "from the industry" examples what I dispute is the basic illogicality of your argument as indicated by what you say above. Basically what you are suggesting is that regardless of what price it is offered at to get those sales, the nature of the game itself and it's sheer visibility in amongst the thousands of games on offer it will make a profit and a significant profit. Ie that is a sure guaranteed thing. That I suggest is garbage and has about as much chance of being true for game sales as it is for anything else in life. That the position is also stated by those who have never actually released a game on steam doesn't honestly instill any greater sense of belief from me.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: jomni on June 28, 2018, 04:30:36 PM
Having a game currently listed on Steam,  I would like to confirm that they take a huge cut.  And if it's bought on sale, then the proceeds to the developer is even smaller.
As mentioned above, it guarantees exposure and some additional sales but it still all depends on the appeal of the game.  There's money going in but it's not enough to live on.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mirth on June 28, 2018, 04:44:09 PM
All I know is they are currently getting none of my dollars. On Steam, they probably would get some of them.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mirth on June 28, 2018, 04:46:31 PM
I can't even tell you the last time I purchased a game straight from a dev. And if I can't at least get a steam key, pass.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on June 28, 2018, 05:51:47 PM
Its conceivable that the Steam model works for many, but not all.

For instance, traditionally, game developers typically made approximately 50% of all sales in retail stores and outlets. The other 50% would go to distribution, vendors, and the retail outlet's share, which was usually pretty small, around 5-7%. Steam cuts out all the middle men and their fees, but takes a larger cut at around 30%, but the developer still receives 70%, which in the traditional sense, is more beneficial then the usual 50%. Battlefront, on the other hand is self published and self distributed, so I guess they in essence take 100% of the gross revenue from sales. I'm sure they've done the math and made the decision that the increased sales from using the steam platform would not exceed the amount of revenue from self distribution when you factor in the number of purchases versus the 30% cut taken by steam.

Steam isn't doing anything wrong, its model is beneficial to most, but as the above illustrates, not to all.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Rayfer on June 28, 2018, 06:27:56 PM
All I know is they are currently getting none of my dollars. On Steam, they probably would get some of them.

+1  I would do the same.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Ubercat on June 28, 2018, 07:43:09 PM
If I played CM games all the time I'd have no problem, but every time I've taken a few months off my games suddenly don't work anymore and I have to spend 1-3 days jumping through BS DRM hoops with customer support to get the games that I paid for to work again. I'm done with this nonsense. Like Mirth, if CM modules were on Steam, they'd keep getting my money. As it is, they can go (insert your own obscenity).
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Skoop on June 28, 2018, 07:59:57 PM
I wonder if the fee battlefront pays for their crappy drm would be a wash with the 30% steam fee and use of their drm.  Even if you add the 30% steam fee to the hypothetical numbers I suggested when I dropped the steam hint at the start of this thread, it still equates to more sales and profits for battlefront.  And with that they could hire more staff, push out more games with new features we want to see.  Battlefront's customer base is the same people that bought the games in 1999.  20 year olds won't even touch this thing.  With out moving to something like steam to appeal to a younger base, the game will simply die.  And with the snail pace that BF works at, their current customer base will die before any new improvements actually come to fruition.


Look, if steam seems to be the devil to BF, then they could do something else.  Merge with graviteam or double their staff so work output can increase, but for Christ sake do something because BF sucks.  Here's how I describe BF's business model...SitzkriegÖ.. 
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mirth on June 28, 2018, 08:00:46 PM
That's pretty much it. These are good games that are woefully behind the times. Ownership (Steve) is antagonistic toward customers, the DRM and patch/upgrade system is a nightmare for users, and I literally have dozens or hundreds of other games to spend my money on with less hassle and condescension..

It's not a difficult formula, but they seem determined to not figure it out.

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: jomni on June 28, 2018, 08:55:00 PM
Its conceivable that the Steam model works for many, but not all.

For instance, traditionally, game developers typically made approximately 50% of all sales in retail stores and outlets. The other 50% would go to distribution, vendors, and the retail outlet's share, which was usually pretty small, around 5-7%. Steam cuts out all the middle men and their fees, but takes a larger cut at around 30%, but the developer still receives 70%, which in the traditional sense, is more beneficial then the usual 50%. Battlefront, on the other hand is self published and self distributed, so I guess they in essence take 100% of the gross revenue from sales. I'm sure they've done the math and made the decision that the increased sales from using the steam platform would not exceed the amount of revenue from self distribution when you factor in the number of purchases versus the 30% cut taken by steam.

Steam isn't doing anything wrong, its model is beneficial to most, but as the above illustrates, not to all.

They probably think theyíre not going to sell a lot on Steam to make it worth while.  Itís a niche game.  Then get compared to Graviteam graphically.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: solops on June 28, 2018, 09:02:35 PM
I will always buy direct from the dev rather than from Steam, when given the choice.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on June 28, 2018, 09:09:52 PM
Any of you remember CDV?

ISTR that BFC got screwed by CDV, and I get the feeling Steve holds grudges. Hell, isn't that why he started Big Time Software in the first place?

Steve isn't outsourcing shit. Get used to it.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mirth on June 28, 2018, 09:14:40 PM
Steve isn't outsourcing shit. Get used to it.

Don't care at all. Plenty of other places for my gaming dollars to go. Seriously, I spend hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars a year on games and not one penny has gone to BFC in at least 10 years.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on June 28, 2018, 09:21:05 PM
Don't care at all.

And yet every second post for the last couple of pages have been yours... ??

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mirth on June 28, 2018, 09:34:07 PM
Don't care at all.

And yet every second post for the last couple of pages have been yours... ??



And you haven't spent the last 10 years bitching about CM across multiple forums... Sorry to rob you of the spotlight for a couple of posts.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on June 29, 2018, 12:15:51 AM
I wonder if the fee battlefront pays for their crappy drm would be a wash with the 30% steam fee and use of their drm.  Even if you add the 30% steam fee to the hypothetical numbers I suggested when I dropped the steam hint at the start of this thread, it still equates to more sales and profits for battlefront.  And with that they could hire more staff, push out more games with new features we want to see.  Battlefront's customer base is the same people that bought the games in 1999.  20 year olds won't even touch this thing.  With out moving to something like steam to appeal to a younger base, the game will simply die.  And with the snail pace that BF works at, their current customer base will die before any new improvements actually come to fruition.


Look, if steam seems to be the devil to BF, then they could do something else.  Merge with graviteam or double their staff so work output can increase, but for Christ sake do something because BF sucks.  Here's how I describe BF's business model...SitzkriegÖ..

So just typical.

1. Your "numbers" were just that. Yours, and you just made them up in your own head to suit your own argument which is so typical of much of the comment on BF. If you look at an earlier post and look at the steamspy numbers for one of the graviteam games, even though there is much debate as to whether those are at all accurate, and that is probably a better comparison than the one used earlier, apply those numbers at an average price, take out the  cut from steam and it's not even close to making even half the salary of a developer. Add in all those who now buy from steam at the reduced price instead of direct and those numbers barely make any sense. So your argument is garbage because it is predicated on your own ignorant assumption that suddenly tens of thousands of new units will be flying off the shelves and the only basis you have for quoting those kinds of numbers is that only then does your argument add up.

2. If battlefront are happy with their business model, their sales from those who do buy, and it provides them with the life they want who the fuck are you to tell them to do something different. Maybe you won't buy their games if they don't but have you ever considered in the context of what they are doing they don't actually care ? These posts are full of people saying do this do that to make thousands of more sales yet the only comment I have ever seen from battlefront on their sales was that their current business model provides them with a comfortable life style. So maybe all those ranting about steam don't see the point that the only guys who matter in this don't particularly care about seeking every last ounce of profit if they have already achieved that which most of us only dream about in earning a living doing something they enjoy
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on June 29, 2018, 12:27:11 AM
Steve isn't outsourcing shit. Get used to it.

Don't care at all. Plenty of other places for my gaming dollars to go. Seriously, I spend hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars a year on games and not one penny has gone to BFC in at least 10 years.

And yet you feel qualified to then discuss their DRM. The quality of their customer service. The upgrade /patch process ?

Fuck me you couldn't make up the level of sheer breathtaking hypocrisy in that one post in a thousand works of fiction.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: JudgeDredd on June 29, 2018, 01:32:05 AM
Zulu - you probably need to take a chill pill pal.

It's really not worth getting that worked up about it  :peace:
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Yskonyn on June 29, 2018, 02:39:47 AM
What I find remarkable is that discussing either Battlefront or Combat Mission still gets people worked up so much. Truely interesting behaviour that I am sure biologists and phychologists would find the same.  :bd:
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on June 29, 2018, 03:05:29 AM
Zulu - you probably need to take a chill pill pal.

It's really not worth getting that worked up about it  :peace:

Who says I am ? It's just typing.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Ssnake51 on June 29, 2018, 06:25:58 AM
I will always buy direct from the dev rather than from Steam, when given the choice.

Yup.  Same here.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on June 29, 2018, 07:35:22 AM
The point I was trying to make is that all the arguments for Steam are useless in this discussion.

Steve/BFC got screwed by CDV. I was serious when I asked if anyone remembered that.

My memory is probably faulty when it comes to this so please correct me if wrong, but I thought they went with CDV - which included a new DRM scheme (not the one currently in use) - in order to increase the likelihood of European sales. The DRM was not popular, not too onerous (sound familiar?) but my fuzzy memory tells me that CDV also had control over the price they sold the game at. When Shock Force went to the proverbial bargain bin within weeks of release, Steve came right out on the forum and said "I didn't think they could do that!" I think what happened was Shock Force got really bad reviews out the gate, in addition to not appealing to the World War II fans that to that date had comprised their base audience. I got the feeling CDV was like Amazon, just using numbers to sell games, taking losses on one thing in hopes of snagging tie-in sales of other stuff, etc. etc.  based on their wide inventory, stuff BFC obviously couldn't do. So while BFC was prepared to stay the course - they patched CMSF on release day and kept at the patches (my notes show they were at version 1.08 within a year) - CDV would have seen low sales figures and I presume some algorithm would have consequently just lowered the price on their website, leading to Steve's "I didn't think they could do that" comment.

Kind of a charming moment, if I'm remembering that correctly. The naÔve, "little guy" game developer who vainly hoped to get his small product in front of a wider audience and then getting taken advantage of by the same type of big, bad corporate gaming guys that he had fled from in order to start his little company.

Certainly added to the "Big Time Software" mystique. But I also think that those kind of experiences will have warded BFC off of platforms like Steam for good.

Personally, I was on Steam until a hard drive crash last year, and only now reluctantly added it again when I heard something I wanted went on sale. I was pleased to find a bunch of other games that I had lost in the crash were still there, for me to re-download. I don't like having more useless stuff asking me for updates every time I boot up, but I see the advantages of Steam that others are talking about.

I wouldn't expect BFC to care much about any of those arguments, though. I never say never, but I find it hard to believe Steve would let someone else sell his product while having the ability to change the price dramatically for their own purposes.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Cyrano on June 29, 2018, 07:43:06 AM
HOORAY BFC and all things Combat Mission.

GIMME!!

Oh, and why isn't the point re: Steam that they don't need it?

Do I wish they were on it?  Well, yeah, but, they believe, truly or falsely, that it doesn't help them.  Their rodeo.

And Michael, your memory of the CDV traveshamockery is accurate.  The only real plus being I got a bunch of CM:SF at a really nice discount.



Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on June 29, 2018, 07:48:01 AM
It helps to read contracts before signing them, and if you do not understand the terms, well, that's why God (or the devil?) made lawyers.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Cyrano on June 29, 2018, 07:56:41 AM
+1

I have frequently thought:  "If this much contract buggery goes on in the public sector, how awful must it be in the private?"

And I told my son just the other day, never apologize for hiring a lawyer, you'll only ever regret hiring a poor one.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: WargamerJoe on June 29, 2018, 08:12:19 AM
That CDV thing sounds terrible - it's a shame indie devs have to go through stuff like that, it can definitely have an impact on how they approach the wider industry.

AFAIK that's not what it's like with Steam though - you give them their cut, but they never alter the price themselves. There's too many games for them to take such direct action anyway I would have thought.

But as far as I can tell all those sales you see is the devs/pubs choosing to discount their games. Valve I think incentivise or at least encourage people to discount but don't flick the switch themselves.

Picked up a game called War of the Zombie after JH flagged it up here. It's not discounted in the steam sale but I bought it anyway because if it's not going to drop the price now, I doubt it ever will.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on June 29, 2018, 08:31:51 AM
That CDV thing sounds terrible - it's a shame indie devs have to go through stuff like that, it can definitely have an impact on how they approach the wider industry.

AFAIK that's not what it's like with Steam though - you give them their cut, but they never alter the price themselves. There's too many games for them to take such direct action anyway I would have thought.

But as far as I can tell all those sales you see is the devs/pubs choosing to discount their games. Valve I think incentivise or at least encourage people to discount but don't flick the switch themselves.

Picked up a game called War of the Zombie after JH flagged it up here. It's not discounted in the steam sale but I bought it anyway because if it's not going to drop the price now, I doubt it ever will.

Very interesting, thanks for the clarification.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zonso on June 29, 2018, 09:07:31 AM
Pretty sure CDV was for CMx1 and Paradox was the European publisher for Shock Force. I seem to recall also they (Paradox) were the reason for the *early* release of Shock Force.  :P

Whatever, kudos and cheers to BFC for releasing Shock Force 2 (soon)!! Agree with Yskonyn, odd, pathalogical behaviour. Been stated before, but they offer demos for their games - you like/see the value then you will buy, if not then <shrug>. Obviously there are enough that like and continue to like what BFC are doing to keep them in the bread and butter, hopefully with a beer or two to go with it.  :)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on June 29, 2018, 09:25:18 AM
Pretty sure CDV was for CMx1 and Paradox was the European publisher for Shock Force. I seem to recall also they (Paradox) were the reason for the *early* release of Shock Force.

Yes, this sounds right also. Tried to search for Steve's discussion of pricing and only found CDV mentioned in reference to CMX1, so I've probably conflated some things. But I still wouldn't hold out much hope of them going with Steam based on what we know of their experiences with third parties.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: WargamerJoe on June 29, 2018, 09:27:49 AM
Very interesting, thanks for the clarification.

There is an outside chance I could be wrong, or perhaps there are some exceptions that I'm unaware of (Front page promotions, maybe?), but I'm pretty sure Valve don't mess with prices themselves.

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Toonces on June 29, 2018, 03:15:08 PM
Good point on the demos...I forgot about that.  I did try that Afghanistan one a while back. 

Demos...man, that brings me back to the good ole' days of gaming...   :'(
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: jamus34 on June 29, 2018, 05:33:49 PM
Very interesting, thanks for the clarification.

There is an outside chance I could be wrong, or perhaps there are some exceptions that I'm unaware of (Front page promotions, maybe?), but I'm pretty sure Valve don't mess with prices themselves.

I tend to agree as I've had some indie games on my wishlist that NEVER get discounted, even in the big sales.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Lowenstaat on June 29, 2018, 07:45:30 PM
Just saw this announcement on the Battlefront homepage:

"We are moving!
Battlefront.com News
Thursday, 28 June 2018

At long, long last Battlefront is making the move to a brand new website and hosting service.  This old site has served us well for many years, but let's face it... it looks like it's served us for many years!  We're happy to finally get this transition under way.

During the transition this website will remain live, however the store portion is shut down.  All existing customer data, including orders and associated license keys, is being moved over to the new site.  This means when the transition concludes you'll be able to pick up where you left off.

Thank you for your patience and support!"
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Con on June 29, 2018, 07:53:35 PM
Why do I feel that this will not end well

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on June 29, 2018, 07:59:54 PM
Why do I feel that this will not end well

 :2funny:

I was just going to post the same thing after reading that license keys and customer data is being moved.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Toonces on June 29, 2018, 08:02:12 PM
Oh boy...

Also Lowenstaat, dude, join the conversation and lets get that post count up boy!  STAT!

NOW DROP AND GIVE ME 20!
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Ubercat on June 29, 2018, 08:02:54 PM
Sounds like another DRM abortion in the works. Lucky thing for me that I've given up on their games.  8)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Staggerwing on June 29, 2018, 08:58:35 PM
(https://i.imgflip.com/2d5m0r.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/2d5m0r)via Imgflip Meme Generator (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Lowenstaat on June 29, 2018, 10:01:00 PM
(https://i.imgflip.com/2d5m0r.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/2d5m0r)via Imgflip Meme Generator (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)

After playing and having too much fun with the random operations generator for CM Beyond Overlord from GOG last year, I reinstalled and patched CM Afrika Korps and CM Barbarossa to Berlin from my old CDs recently, too. I appreciate the fidelity of the newer CM games, but keep going back to CM1 games for the random operations feature. 
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Lowenstaat on June 29, 2018, 10:09:43 PM
Oh boy...

Also Lowenstaat, dude, join the conversation and lets get that post count up boy!  STAT!

NOW DROP AND GIVE ME 20!

20 (modified) completed!

I hope the Battlefront transition to a new website and hosting service goes smoothly. I'm also curious to see who ends up with the old website Battlefront.com. It won't surprise me if EA gobbles it up for their Star Wars FPS game.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Destraex on June 30, 2018, 12:03:05 AM
I actually hope their may finally be a sale once they update the website? So I can nab the modules I have not got.
Or perhaps they will charge us an update fee to use the website :P (seriously though, I am very happy that they update their old games to new feature standard).
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: MikeGER on June 30, 2018, 12:52:02 AM
the sad news behind the news is:

The unavoidable hick-ups that will came with the transition and the clearing up operation to sort them out
will delay all planed releases by 6 month minimum   ???
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on June 30, 2018, 03:57:15 AM
Oh boy...

Also Lowenstaat, dude, join the conversation and lets get that post count up boy!  STAT!

NOW DROP AND GIVE ME 20!

20 (modified) completed!

I hope the Battlefront transition to a new website and hosting service goes smoothly. I'm also curious to see who ends up with the old website Battlefront.com. It won't surprise me if EA gobbles it up for their Star Wars FPS game.

I don't think they are changing the name of the website or getting a new domain.  That's not typically how it works.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on June 30, 2018, 04:00:26 AM
One thing on the Steam front...BFC has always fancied itself as a distributer.  It has always had a stable of games from independent developers.  I suspect that Steve sees Steam as competition as much as anything.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Pete Dero on June 30, 2018, 06:23:48 AM
the sad news behind the news is:

The unavoidable hick-ups that will came with the transition and the clearing up operation to sort them out
will delay all planed releases by 6 month minimum   ???

Did they post this or is this your expectation ?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on June 30, 2018, 06:57:03 AM
Oh boy...

Also Lowenstaat, dude, join the conversation and lets get that post count up boy!  STAT!

NOW DROP AND GIVE ME 20!

20 (modified) completed!

I hope the Battlefront transition to a new website and hosting service goes smoothly. I'm also curious to see who ends up with the old website Battlefront.com. It won't surprise me if EA gobbles it up for their Star Wars FPS game.

Why would they need a new URL?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on June 30, 2018, 08:38:15 AM
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2018/06/29/the-flare-path-ukrainian-edition/

About 3/4 of the way down is an interesting comment about BFC and Steam.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Pinetree on June 30, 2018, 10:07:46 PM
One thing on the Steam front...BFC has always fancied itself as a distributer.  It has always had a stable of games from independent developers.  I suspect that Steve sees Steam as competition as much as anything.
Not anymore. They decided it wasn't for them and dropped every game that they didn't make. One of the reasons Fury software went to Matrix.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on July 01, 2018, 06:38:44 AM
But they are stilling selling them in the store aren't they?  At least I saw tacops there.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on July 01, 2018, 10:07:37 AM
But they are stilling selling them in the store aren't they?  At least I saw tacops there.

Yes Tacops is still sold but saying Steve saw steam as "competition" is faintly ridiculous. Steam has thousands of games and over 120 million active user accounts. Compared 5o a couple of decade old games.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on July 01, 2018, 10:45:22 AM
Yeah, I didn't know they had cleaned out the store of all those old games. 
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Destraex on July 12, 2018, 05:05:57 AM
I still wonder if their will be a sale when the store comes back online... 13th I believe.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on July 12, 2018, 05:20:25 AM
Does BFC do sales?  I don't remember one.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on July 12, 2018, 05:35:37 AM
besides their bundles and upgrade/update discounts, donít believe i have ever seen them have an actual sale.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Sir Slash on July 12, 2018, 09:05:39 AM
I think you can get 10% off if you can recite every version of CMBN in their correct order without help, something that's never been done before--- this is a joke only and not meant to incite anger and violence.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Yskonyn on July 12, 2018, 12:39:47 PM
^  :tickedoff: Say what??

 ;D
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Sir Slash on July 12, 2018, 01:41:46 PM
Rut-Roh Shaggy.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on July 14, 2018, 06:55:26 AM
So, ummmm....yeah...any news?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Destraex on July 14, 2018, 08:05:08 AM
Refresh button on their store does nothing.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on July 14, 2018, 08:09:46 AM
There hasn't been an official update since Wednesday....sounds like they got things moved over, but experienced some bugs which they are working out.  Nothing since that post so who knows at this point.  Just has to be up and ready by the time SF2 comes out for me by end of month (assuming that happens)  :)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Destraex on July 15, 2018, 12:09:32 AM
Is shock force 2 PBEM coop?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Yskonyn on July 15, 2018, 02:56:09 AM
If you share the password and turn file you can both alternate turns. Other than that, no.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Con on July 15, 2018, 05:49:06 AM
The answer is to share dongles  :-"
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Staggerwing on July 15, 2018, 08:01:35 AM
But only after informed consent.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Yskonyn on July 15, 2018, 11:42:31 AM
Will there be socket sharing as well?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Sir Slash on July 15, 2018, 01:44:14 PM
Not with you guys. I don't need mine all stretched out of shape, thank you.  :P
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Con on July 15, 2018, 02:31:34 PM
Obviously afraid of traditional black dongles not the modern Asian models
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Sir Slash on July 16, 2018, 11:43:23 AM
Yes, the black ones make me feel inadequate. But so do cucumbers.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Father Ted on July 16, 2018, 02:39:20 PM
Odd - cucumbers make me burp
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on July 18, 2018, 02:59:08 AM
Well new website up. Hopefully not long before CMSF 2 is up for sale
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on July 18, 2018, 04:55:58 AM
I am not impressed by the new site. It feels just as antiquated and ďbudgetĒ as the old. Of course, none of the critical information from my order history is available yet, too. It will be a miracle if it ever shows up.

....other than that, how was the show Mrs. Lincoln?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on July 18, 2018, 05:35:14 AM
I have built websites for my sister's and wife's businesses and have never seen anyone have the issues BFC is having with their site.  Its very weird.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Yskonyn on July 18, 2018, 06:11:15 AM
I am not impressed by the new site. It feels just as antiquated and ďbudgetĒ as the old. Of course, none of the critical information from my order history is available yet, too. It will be a miracle if it ever shows up.

....other than that, how was the show Mrs. Lincoln?

When I made my new password and checked my account I found all these empty past orders as well and it scared me quite a bit.
Its odd that there is no readily visible message about it, but scouring the forums aparently the issue about empty past orders is known. According to BFC it's a display issue only and the order info appears to be fine in admin mode on their side.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on July 18, 2018, 07:49:02 AM
So everything is relative...

Poked around at the "new" BFC website.  Its not pretty, its not elegant, and it doesn't appear complete.  But it is a heck of a lot simpler than the old one.  Its still ugly as sin, but doesn't make my eyes fall out of my head when trying to find something.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: rocketman on July 18, 2018, 08:00:59 AM
They have stated that it is still being polished so what you see now is not the finished site.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on July 18, 2018, 08:07:03 AM
Yeah...honestly, i don't really care what the website looks like, so long as my order info. is preserved and its not too much of a hassle to buy future products. I guess after all the time and fuss I was expecting something new and shiny. Not just a slightly polished turd...but as I said, it doesn't really matter. I'd rather energy, resources and time be spent on the games.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Destraex on July 18, 2018, 08:07:50 AM
Yep. It's a slightly cleaner website. But not much more than that.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Queeg on July 18, 2018, 12:56:12 PM
Some guy posted on their forum that the new site doesn't scale properly to 2550x1440.  Works fine for me at 3440x1440.  Tried to post saying so.  New site doesn't recognize me when I try to log in but does when I ask to change my password, but won't save the new password, and now has locked me out.  Oh well....
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Sir Slash on July 18, 2018, 01:08:07 PM
Not good.  :o
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on July 19, 2018, 05:34:39 AM
From Steve this morning...

"Hiya!

Do you know what the difference is between weeks of private testing and minutes of public viewing?  Everything :D

We discovered that products from orders placed a while back (1-2 years, or there abouts) aren't showing up in your My Orders view in your account.  The reason for this is the data we imported from the old site has nothing current to retrieve things like product name, price, URL, etc.  Product license keys are a slightly different case, but related.  And that is because I didn't think I needed to recreate the 457 old products (including options) in the new system.  Silly me.

More recent orders probably have issues as well, but fortunately those are easier to fix.

What I have to do now is cobble together the old products so you guys can retrieve the info you need.  That plus a bit of work from our eCommerce guys will get things put right.  I expect it will take me at least another 24 hours to get this done. Until then, please adopt a holding pattern.  I'll make an announcement once everything is fixed.

Thanks for your patience.  I think we can all agree the new site is worth a few teething pains!

Steve"

Testing stuff is a crap job and I typically don't comment on it.  But this is one of those things where I have to ask about how stuff was tested.  Based on the type of DRM they have, I would have thought this would receive the most exacting testing before turning the whole thing on.  I don't understand how they couldn't have known this wouldn't work.  Just one of those things about BFC I scratch my head over.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on July 19, 2018, 08:21:01 AM
Testing stuff is a crap job and I typically don't comment on it.  But this is one of those things where I have to ask about how stuff was tested.  Based on the type of DRM they have, I would have thought this would receive the most exacting testing before turning the whole thing on.  I don't understand how they couldn't have known this wouldn't work.  Just one of those things about BFC I scratch my head over.

I was on the scenario design and beta test team for CM:SF and the biggest thing I learned was just how little rigor went into testing stuff. They tended to focus on one or two issues at a time, usually coding issues that were largely invisible to the testers (stuff happening in the background) and a lot of things that were more cosmetic in nature didn't even get an official comment. I don't think that is unusual based on my other beta-test experiences with other companies, but my biggest disappointment with the experience was the difficulties in communicating among members of the team - despite having a dedicated forum. In other words, this seems like nothing new for BFC. I expect the most charitable explanation is that they have so many projects ongoing that their attention is constantly divided.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: WargamerJoe on July 19, 2018, 08:25:22 AM
In all fairness to them, no product survives contact with the public, no matter how much testing is involved.

I can't really comment on whether this specific issue with the orders should have come up in testing, but you'd be surprised how much you don't think of when trying to test things. Even then, your testing environment could throw up 0 issues, where-as people on the other end will find every issue under the sun.

But if they're not in a good habit for QA, then they're unlikely to randomly "git gud" at it just for something like a new website. The reason behind this order bug gives some insight as to what their priorities could have been.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on July 19, 2018, 08:26:05 AM
Well, good news is my account is still active there, and the list of orders seems complete. Hopefully they get the data and license keys up and running. It was very convenient to have them accessible on the site.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: IICptMillerII on July 19, 2018, 03:21:17 PM
I'd like to mention that a lot of the issues they have had over moving to a new website is due to the fact that the previous websites architecture was from 1998. Many of the structural parts of the webpage no longer exist with more modern web designs. A large part of the issues caused was transitioning the old data on outdated infrastructure to the new infrastructure. Honestly sounds like one hell of a headache to me. It likely would have been much easier if this whole website transition had taken place 10 or so years ago, but you know what they say about hindsight.

I was able to reactivate my account and log in on the new website without any issues by following the instructions listed on the homepage. Personally, I didn't hate the old website, and I don't find the new one to be a massive improvement (cosmetically) over the old one. However I understand that most of the real upgrades are "behind the scenes."

Hopefully the rest of these wrinkles are ironed out soon so that the website can be used for its most anticipated feature, selling us Shock Force 2.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on July 19, 2018, 03:40:51 PM
I'd like to mention that a lot of the issues they have had over moving to a new website is due to the fact that the previous websites architecture was from 1998. Many of the structural parts of the webpage no longer exist with more modern web designs. A large part of the issues caused was transitioning the old data on outdated infrastructure to the new infrastructure. Honestly sounds like one hell of a headache to me. It likely would have been much easier if this whole website transition had taken place 10 or so years ago, but you know what they say about hindsight.

I was able to reactivate my account and log in on the new website without any issues by following the instructions listed on the homepage. Personally, I didn't hate the old website, and I don't find the new one to be a massive improvement (cosmetically) over the old one. However I understand that most of the real upgrades are "behind the scenes."

Hopefully the rest of these wrinkles are ironed out soon so that the website can be used for its most anticipated feature, selling us Shock Force 2.

Amen to the last sentence though they are still talking pre orders - which means it is at least a month away from me getting my hands on this...
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: WYBaugh on July 19, 2018, 07:39:56 PM
Question, when I go to their site, I see the old site.  On their forum the guy posting about the resolution issue is on the same url....am I missing something?

EDIT:  Nevermind...still rolling out the DNS.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on July 21, 2018, 04:42:38 AM
As of this morning, my account was fully restored and available with my keys and downloads.....

With that said, not that I care much, no idea why they think this web site is much better than the old one...feels very similar to me.......
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on July 21, 2018, 08:54:42 AM
As of this morning, my account was fully restored and available with my keys and downloads.....

With that said, not that I care much, no idea why they think this web site is much better than the old one...feels very similar to me.......

I realized the other day that I hadn't checked into this forum in a while. It's taken me a few days to read through the entire thread and didn't want to post before catching up.

I'm glad to hear that all of your order information has populated your account.  Hopefully everyone's will be very shortly. For anyone who doesn't have access yet open a Help Desk ticket and I'll get you what you need. The more specific you can be the easier it will be to quickly get you the information.  Unfortunately,  my day job computer blocks the site that allows me to retrieve license keys (it also blocks porn and gaming websites...bastards don't want me to have any fun) so I won't have access to them until  later today and all day tomorrow.  If you need a download link I have those handy. Heck, I can send them if you just PM me here.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on July 21, 2018, 09:01:13 AM
As of this morning, my account was fully restored and available with my keys and downloads.....

With that said, not that I care much, no idea why they think this web site is much better than the old one...feels very similar to me.......

I realized the other day that I hadn't checked into this forum in a while. It's taken me a few days to read through the entire thread and didn't want to post before catching up.

I'm glad to hear that all of your order information has populated your account.  Hopefully everyone's will be very shortly. For anyone who doesn't have access yet open a Help Desk ticket and I'll get you what you need. The more specific you can be the easier it will be to quickly get you the information.  Unfortunately,  my day job computer blocks the site that allows me to retrieve license keys (it also blocks porn and gaming websites...bastards don't want me to have any fun) so I won't have access to them until  later today and all day tomorrow.  If you need a download link I have those handy. Heck, I can send them if you just PM me here.

I spoke too soon.....although a number of mine is available, a handful are not...hopefully will straighten out at some point.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Destraex on July 23, 2018, 06:14:59 PM
Just re-installed shock force and all the modules I own (all of them I think). What a painful process.
I had to fight re-licnesing, anti-virus and now will have to fight texture issues. To be fair. It's a very old game now.
Perhaps I am missing some more files that the AV blocked OR perhaps the graphics drivers I have just don't like it.

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/930/43553309452_c1ab79d80b_z.jpg)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Cyrano on July 23, 2018, 07:48:42 PM
I had that, or something very like it.

I recall it being an ATI driver issue.  I had to roll back which was no fun, but one must CM:SF.

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Sir Slash on July 23, 2018, 09:18:58 PM
I agree. The whole process is akin to a visit to your Dentist and Proctologist at the same time.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: IICptMillerII on July 23, 2018, 09:44:10 PM
The good news is that the new website means a much less painful DRM circus to deal with, and Shock Force 2 will get rid of most of these technical issues in SF1. Another reason to be excited for SF2!

Speaking of SF2, I've been working on a little project for a while and figure now is a decent time to show a quick teaser.

(https://i.imgur.com/3gbOr0N.jpg)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on July 24, 2018, 04:05:33 AM
you mention drm will be less painful with the new web site, why is that?  what about the new web site will make that easier?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Sir Slash on July 24, 2018, 09:13:23 AM
Leave that man alone and let him get back to that delicious-looking Project Tease.  ;D
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on July 24, 2018, 12:33:21 PM
Just re-installed shock force and all the modules I own (all of them I think). What a painful process.
I had to fight re-licnesing, anti-virus and now will have to fight texture issues. To be fair. It's a very old game now.
Perhaps I am missing some more files that the AV blocked OR perhaps the graphics drivers I have just don't like it.

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/930/43553309452_c1ab79d80b_z.jpg)

I thought that was you when I got the ticket the other day! Glad that you're at least installed. I cringe when I get a CMSF1 ticket where the person needs to re-install the whole game. What a convoluted mess. Thankfully, everything else now has the all-in-one full game installers since the 4.0 Upgrade came out.

RE: the screenshot. Is your computer a desktop or laptop? What kind of video card do you have? Has the game previously played fine on that computer?

EDIT: Maybe you should open a ticket for it rather than trying to do tech support here.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: IICptMillerII on July 24, 2018, 12:57:57 PM
you mention drm will be less painful with the new web site, why is that?  what about the new web site will make that easier?

I'm not a developer, so I can only convey what has been said and my impressions of it. From what I've heard, it sounds like the DRM will be easier to manage because the behind the scenes systems have been overhauled and simplified. Starting with V4 and their new website, all you should need to do to activate a game is to plug in the license key into the activator provided with every game (it comes up automatically if the game isn't licensed) and you should be all set.

All the current CM games are using this system, and when SF2 comes out it will be on the new system.

The short of it is, it should be easier for one to activate their new games, and the license key "infrastructure" is much smoother now.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on July 31, 2018, 03:52:39 PM
Now I know I shouldn't be surprised, but after that message posting Battlefront did where they admitted not providing updated information, I had hoped communication would improve.  At that time, they indicated CMSF 2 would be released by the end of July but since then have not said a single word.  I suspect they will say because of the web site issues it is now delayed, but why the heck hasn't any information been posted to confirm that and potential new dates?  If they follow their typical process of making pre orders available, seems like we could still be a month or more away.

Just takes a minute to provide a clue to people....
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on July 31, 2018, 04:22:36 PM
But the five minutes it would take to update the masses means a 3-4 week delay in finalizing the game.

btw, if Steve just said the website worked caused the delay, instead of his usual page of pointing out how BFC isn't at fault and its the customers who are too demanding, it would seem a lot simpler.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on July 31, 2018, 04:29:12 PM
The thing that I find hilarious is that nobody who is posting in the official forums is even asking...Its as if they are all too scared to even suggest that an update would be nice.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on July 31, 2018, 04:31:28 PM
The thing that I find hilarious is that nobody who is posting in the official forums is even asking...Its as if they are all too scared to even suggest that an update would be nice.

Very true, I noticed that as well.  I guess being beat up for the last 20 years has people gun shy in asking fair and reasonable questions.  Probably wouldn't do any good anyway, we'll get the typical excuses and then he will say customers expect too much....sigh.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mirth on July 31, 2018, 04:34:57 PM
Damn customers
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Destraex on July 31, 2018, 05:19:46 PM
Just re-installed shock force and all the modules I own (all of them I think). What a painful process.
I had to fight re-licnesing, anti-virus and now will have to fight texture issues. To be fair. It's a very old game now.
Perhaps I am missing some more files that the AV blocked OR perhaps the graphics drivers I have just don't like it.

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/930/43553309452_c1ab79d80b_z.jpg)

I thought that was you when I got the ticket the other day! Glad that you're at least installed. I cringe when I get a CMSF1 ticket where the person needs to re-install the whole game. What a convoluted mess. Thankfully, everything else now has the all-in-one full game installers since the 4.0 Upgrade came out.

RE: the screenshot. Is your computer a desktop or laptop? What kind of video card do you have? Has the game previously played fine on that computer?

EDIT: Maybe you should open a ticket for it rather than trying to do tech support here.

What's wrong with the tech support here?
I was in two minds to be honest. My first priority was to get my keys in order. Then I was going to have a muck around with the current version. Now I may just wait and see what cmsf2 offers and if I purchase all my problems should go away. Because the new version should work perfectly on my system.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Staggerwing on July 31, 2018, 08:09:39 PM
The good news is that the new website means a much less painful DRM circus to deal with, and Shock Force 2 will get rid of most of these technical issues in SF1. Another reason to be excited for SF2!

Speaking of SF2, I've been working on a little project for a while and figure now is a decent time to show a quick teaser.

(https://i.imgur.com/3gbOr0N.jpg)

Is that Matrix's Campaigns: Middle East you are working with?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: jomni on August 01, 2018, 02:42:18 AM
Must be JTS panzer battles or panzer campaigns
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: IICptMillerII on August 01, 2018, 09:36:47 PM
Is that Matrix's Campaigns: Middle East you are working with?
Must be JTS panzer battles or panzer campaigns

It's both actually. Photoshop is a magical thing.

The bad news is, I'll be traveling for most of August so I won't get much of a chance to work on this more. The good news is, most of it is already done, and no one knows when CMSF2 is actually releasing so the delay might work in my favor.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on August 02, 2018, 05:11:20 AM
I noticed Steve and minions are giving some guy a hard time about asking why the game wasn't released.  Jumping on the old chestnut of that is why they don't give dates on release.

Again, if he had just said on July 31 that it won't be July because of the website or any other reason, it would have mooted that whole conversation.  I can't believe he doesn't see the connection.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on August 02, 2018, 04:15:18 PM
I noticed Steve and minions are giving some guy a hard time about asking why the game wasn't released.  Jumping on the old chestnut of that is why they don't give dates on release.

Again, if he had just said on July 31 that it won't be July because of the website or any other reason, it would have mooted that whole conversation.  I can't believe he doesn't see the connection.

Holy cow....his actual reason given "Exactly why we are reluctant to post release dates!  In this case I didn't take into consideration that people might take some time off from work this summer.  Silly me!"

Really?  so nothing do to with website?  He just forgot people have time off and that ends up preventing from the posting of any updates?

They are just lucky I want to play this type of game, otherwise I would totally stop supporting this behavior....
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on August 04, 2018, 03:31:48 AM
More head scratching stuff from them....they just don't get it.  Maybe if they remotely ever hit their planned release date (without some crazy reason like "I forgot people go on vacation" or if they could create a 1 minute post every so often to keep their paying customers informed, wouldn't come across so badly.  Oh well, beating dead horse with this company....I truly don't understand how they stay in business.

I definitely appreciate customers want to be informed about when things are/aren't happening.  We do like you to be informed, unfortunately after 20 years of doing this it doesn't get any easier to make predictions.  The problem is every time I post some sort of update people pester me to make a new release date estimate.  When that comes and goes people want another one.  And if that one comes and goes, I'm pushed to make another one.  I've found it's usually better to say nothing as much as possible.  In the end customers are not better/worse informed because no matter what I do and do not say the game will only get released when it's ready.  And even I don't know when that is until about 10 minutes before it goes live.

Steve
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: sandman2575 on August 04, 2018, 06:43:25 AM
I've found it's usually better to say nothing as much as possible.


That's a sound m.o. if you work in the intelligence community.  When dealing with your customer base, not so much.

 #:-)

I have to say I'm pretty much done with Battlefront and CM at this point. The game engine just feels so clunky and dated in 2018.  10 minutes with the Graviteam games really makes this apparent.  The 'new and improved' website that they took years to complete looks neither new or improved. Their inability to make any deadlines for releases, and then their incredible defensiveness and refusal to keep folks informed as to their plans, is just ridiculous at this point.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Apocalypse 31 on August 04, 2018, 08:33:51 AM
I've found it's usually better to say nothing as much as possible.


That's a sound m.o. if you work in the intelligence community.  When dealing with your customer base, not so much.

 #:-)

I have to say I'm pretty much done with Battlefront and CM at this point. The game engine just feels so clunky and dated in 2018.  10 minutes with the Graviteam games really makes this apparent.  The 'new and improved' website that they took years to complete looks neither new or improved. Their inability to make any deadlines for releases, and then their incredible defensiveness and refusal to keep folks informed as to their plans, is just ridiculous at this point.

I concur with all. CM will never see my hard drive again.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on August 04, 2018, 09:26:37 AM
Not to mention, the Graviteam games receive frequent updates and DLCs.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on August 04, 2018, 09:29:44 AM
Not to mention, the Graviteam games receive frequent updates and DLCs.

During the next GraviTeam sale, think I'll finally jump in...
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on August 04, 2018, 10:09:38 AM
I've found it's usually better to say nothing as much as possible.


That's a sound m.o. if you work in the intelligence community.  When dealing with your customer base, not so much.

 #:-)

I have to say I'm pretty much done with Battlefront and CM at this point. The game engine just feels so clunky and dated in 2018.  10 minutes with the Graviteam games really makes this apparent.  The 'new and improved' website that they took years to complete looks neither new or improved. Their inability to make any deadlines for releases, and then their incredible defensiveness and refusal to keep folks informed as to their plans, is just ridiculous at this point.

Yeah we know. Do you really have to keep telling us ?
10 minutes with the graviteam games and that impenetrable unexplained horrendous interface reminds me why I never get beyond  30 mins play
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: sandman2575 on August 04, 2018, 10:18:39 AM

Yeah we know. Do you really have to keep telling us ?



Right.  *I'm* the one with an ax to grind when it comes to CM, and who has become tiresome with his constantly offered and predictable opinions.  Got it.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on August 04, 2018, 10:50:17 AM
I've found it's usually better to say nothing as much as possible.


That's a sound m.o. if you work in the intelligence community.  When dealing with your customer base, not so much.

 #:-)

I have to say I'm pretty much done with Battlefront and CM at this point. The game engine just feels so clunky and dated in 2018.  10 minutes with the Graviteam games really makes this apparent.  The 'new and improved' website that they took years to complete looks neither new or improved. Their inability to make any deadlines for releases, and then their incredible defensiveness and refusal to keep folks informed as to their plans, is just ridiculous at this point.

Yeah we know. Do you really have to keep telling us ?
10 minutes with the graviteam games and that impenetrable unexplained horrendous interface reminds me why I never get beyond  30 mins play

The interface isn't "horrendous". This is an often repeated falsehood. Its different. It takes some effort to learn. That's all.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on August 04, 2018, 11:30:07 AM
I completely agree on the Graviteam interface.  It is different.  I always go back to CM1's launch and wailing about the interface.  The main issue is that Graviteam has so many more options to control your units than BFC.  I think that is what gets CM players.

Just like any CM game, it takes a while to figure it out.  Unless you really don't want to.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Cyrano on August 04, 2018, 11:34:50 AM
Please call -- and I mean this -- when Graviteam figures out the magic elixir of MP.

Until then, the flame for me is not worth the candle.

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: sandman2575 on August 04, 2018, 11:37:17 AM
No question the "Graviteam's UI is horrendous and incomprehensible!!" thing is a red herring. Yes, it's unusual and does have a learning curve. But in the Graviteam games, I can get a platoon of tanks travel in a column down a road half a kilometer's distance in about 3 clicks. Doing the same in CM literally might take 20 times as many clicks.  CM's UI is the horrendous, carpal-tunnel inducing one, not Graviteam's.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Skoop on August 04, 2018, 04:03:20 PM
Only thing I can't figure out is how to drop arty in graviteam.  It seems the new ui over complicated the process.  Other than that, I actually like the graviteam ui.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on August 04, 2018, 04:06:06 PM

Yeah we know. Do you really have to keep telling us ?



Right.  *I'm* the one with an ax to grind when it comes to CM, and who has become tiresome with his constantly offered and predictable opinions.  Got it.

Well you are the one who wastes your time coming to CM posts to tell people how shit the game is. I just wonder why you bother.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Apocalypse 31 on August 04, 2018, 04:06:45 PM
No question the "Graviteam's UI is horrendous and incomprehensible!!" thing is a red herring. Yes, it's unusual and does have a learning curve. But in the Graviteam games, I can get a platoon of tanks travel in a column down a road half a kilometer's distance in about 3 clicks. Doing the same in CM literally might take 20 times as many clicks.  CM's UI is the horrendous, carpal-tunnel inducing one, not Graviteam's.

I remember a scenario in Combat Mission Battle for Normandy that had me controlling almost an entire Battalion of combat power: almost an entire battalion of Squad-sized elements. Fucking nightmare.

I'm not crazy about the Graviteam UI, but at least I can give Platoon orders and orders at echelon.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on August 04, 2018, 04:13:24 PM
I've found it's usually better to say nothing as much as possible.


That's a sound m.o. if you work in the intelligence community.  When dealing with your customer base, not so much.

 #:-)

I have to say I'm pretty much done with Battlefront and CM at this point. The game engine just feels so clunky and dated in 2018.  10 minutes with the Graviteam games really makes this apparent.  The 'new and improved' website that they took years to complete looks neither new or improved. Their inability to make any deadlines for releases, and then their incredible defensiveness and refusal to keep folks informed as to their plans, is just ridiculous at this point.

Yeah we know. Do you really have to keep telling us ?
10 minutes with the graviteam games and that impenetrable unexplained horrendous interface reminds me why I never get beyond  30 mins play

The interface isn't "horrendous". This is an often repeated falsehood. Its different. It takes some effort to learn. That's all.

Which is undoubtedly why I have watched about 15 different you tube videos trying to explain how to lay down indirect fire all filled with guys saying I don't know why this works but it seems to. Something it takes one read of the manual... yes there is actually a fully written proper English manual with the CM games that literally explains everything about the game. Fuck me now there is an innovation. Don't have to spend half my life trying to "figure" anything out it is actually written down.

Or witness the farce that is just trying to get units to lay down suppressing fire on an area ... freaking ridiculously obtuse and difficult to figure out. Set the AI control to this ... do that... and then say three hail.marys and it might just work...just what is wrong with select unit. Fire, ffs.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: IICptMillerII on August 04, 2018, 04:20:30 PM
I have to agree with those with complaints about Graviteam. I've tried the games, but I just can't get into them. The interface is definitely something you have to learn to get used to.

Don't get me wrong, it has a lot of things going for it. I like their physics engine that allows for cool things like mud being flung around by tank tracks, and I always appreciate realistic gore effects on casualties. I also like the equipment you get to play around with, and the operational layer is a huge plus for me.

However at the end of the day I just don't really enjoy playing them beyond a quick 20 minute quick battle. My single biggest problem with the game is the lack of controls. Before everyone yells at me, let me explain:
In Graviteam there are plenty of nuanced controls, both for movement and formations and attacking/probing etc. The problem is, one you give these orders the TacAI is left to figure out all the micro details and bluntly, it doesn't do a great job. It's enough to get the job done, but it is certainly not efficient. In Graviteam I tend to take much higher casualties than should be expected, and performing fundamental battlefield tasks such as setting up a base of fire, laying down suppression fire and then assaulting the enemy with an assault element is not only difficult, half the time it just plain doesn't work.

The two explanations I've been given are 1) "you don't know how to play the game" and 2) "well that's just the fog of war. In reality its nearly impossible to set that kind of stuff up."
To point 1, yes I do know how to play the game. To point 2, I would strongly disagree, but I will concede there is some nuance there.

Overall I do not hate the games. In fact as I mentioned I like a lot of things they do, and I appreciate the fact that they cover some less well known conflicts and time periods. Personally though I just cannot get nearly as committed to them as I can with the CM games.

As to the business practices over at BFC, I've already said my peace on that. I think they could be more transparent, and that everyone gets frustrated when waiting on a highly anticipated product like CMSF2 to come out. that being said, I understand Steve's point completely. He is in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" position that I don't envy. He gave us a release estimate and wasn't able to keep it. He gave a brief (tongue in cheek, light hearted) explanation as to why the deadline wasn't reached. Now everyone is at his throat over it. If he hadn't of said anything, everyone would have been at his throat for not saying anything.

Am I giving a blank check apology for BFC? No. Could it be better? Yes. At the end of the day though, I just don't get nearly as upset over these issues as others do. I understand why people get upset over these things, and I don't think they're wrong for being upset. for some, these details take away from the overall experience of the games. For me, I ignore these things for the overall experience of the games.

Anyways I figure I'll end this essay of a post with another teaser of what I've been working on in anticipation of CMSF2. A quick note though, I'll be travelling for nearly all of August and so if the game does get released this month I won't be able to do much of anything with it until I return.

(https://i.imgur.com/JHRQzlm.jpg)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on August 04, 2018, 04:30:01 PM
Which is the point. Lauding the graviteam games as the perfect tactical war game is ridiculous. They both have issues but the bent here seems to be criticise everything about CM but ignore the numerous failings of the graviteam games as well. The much lauded strategic later in the graviteam games is again one of those aspects which is so obtuse as to be unintelligible. What good are good points when you can't figure out how they are meant to work.

I like both games. Both have strong and weak points. But this constant carping .against the CM games seems to be driven by some level of childish grudge.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on August 04, 2018, 04:53:58 PM
Graviteam is not the perfect tactical wargame.  That is a huge exaggeration of what is being said.  A good way to have people shy away from agreeing with you is to take what they are saying and completely blow it out of proportion.

I like CM.  I think  it has a lot of pluses over Graviteam's games.  But Steve has been and continues to be a dick to his customers.  There is little content or information coming out.  That is the point of the last few pages.

Again, Ill point you to the archives of BFC in probably around 2007/8 when CM2 was released.  A lot of complaining about the UI.  The people left playing it are people who have the muscle memory for the UI.


Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on August 04, 2018, 05:33:24 PM
Graviteam is not the perfect tactical wargame.  That is a huge exaggeration of what is being said.  A good way to have people shy away from agreeing with you is to take what they are saying and completely blow it out of proportion.

I like CM.  I think  it has a lot of pluses over Graviteam's games.  But Steve has been and continues to be a dick to his customers.  There is little content or information coming out.  That is the point of the last few pages.

Again, Ill point you to the archives of BFC in probably around 2007/8 when CM2 was released.  A lot of complaining about the UI.  The people left playing it are people who have the muscle memory for the UI.

And I don't see whether Steve is a dick or not really affects anything. Does Steve being a dick make it a poorer game ?

And saying graviteam was the perfect war game was hyperbole. Which I would have thought was obvious.

And I don't have muscle memory for the UI. I just think it is a little clunky but, unlike the graviteam games, patently clear and understandable. Yet another example of people stating something about the CM games as if it were undebatable fact for everyone, or should be.

As i say it is clunky, especially for things like convoy movement but you press a button and it does what you expect it to. Which is pretty much what I need from an interface.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Destraex on August 04, 2018, 07:18:39 PM
Please call -- and I mean this -- when Graviteam figures out the magic elixir of MP.

Until then, the flame for me is not worth the candle.

This. But I have also been asking CM team for years to update their multiplayer to allow more than 2 player and vs. AI coop that does not require magical community file swapping. But at least it has it.

I have graviteam games operation star and one of the others iirc and have tried them briefly before putting them down because of the interface, lack of explanation and the lack of control. I tend to want to know every little detail and CM lends itself to that. But yes CM can be a chore to carry out a 2 minute turn with 500 units. You can spend an hour setting up one of these 2 minutes of actual playtime because you literally are all of the tank and infantry commanders at once. Does this offer an unfair BORG like advantage? Yes in a way it does. The Command and Control aspects of CM though go a long way to mitigating this. Which can lead to some grand frustration. I suspect graviteam tactics is nowhere near as good at simulating tank view limitations and command and control limitations???? I would say that CM games are generally better "technical" games when it comes to most details. Where graviteam is much more of a hands off approach that means their is even more mystery about whether it's doing things right with all it's under the hood working out of what is happening or whether it's a much simpler calculation. I don't know. I barely remember graviteam now and will probably not try the games again until multiplayer is on the table. ... well I have a weak spot for them because I love the concept. So may buy them at some point. What I do love about the graviteam games is the tactical maps.... they are huge and give you a real sense of having options other than a simple frontal assault. You feel like you really ambush an enemy or can push in a direction that he may really not have troops. Where CM is not really at that "generalisimo" command level of choosing the route to take. CM generally runs you in as a lower tier commander. Colonel would probably be the highest. You have been sent in and you will face whatever you face without being able to avoid it.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: dinsdale on August 04, 2018, 09:09:08 PM

And I don't see whether Steve is a dick or not really affects anything. Does Steve being a dick make it a poorer game ?


Battlefront can make for a poor customer experience, even if the game is great. Everyone has a threshold when a product is no longer worth the hassle to use it, I'm surprised that concept needs any clarification.

A few years ago they weren't alone, but there are few companies which rival them today, maybe only Norbsoft and Cleve Blackmore.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on August 05, 2018, 02:52:35 AM
Not to mention, the Graviteam games receive frequent updates and DLCs.

And the DLC is nothing more than a scenario. Some.times one or two new units. These aren't major game changing DLC not even minor. Frankly it just highlights another weakness of the graviteam games in that there is no proper scenario maker. I have access to the same thing for free in the CM scenario repository.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on August 05, 2018, 03:00:18 AM

And I don't see whether Steve is a dick or not really affects anything. Does Steve being a dick make it a poorer game ?


Battlefront can make for a poor customer experience, even if the game is great. Everyone has a threshold when a product is no longer worth the hassle to use it, I'm surprised that concept needs any clarification.

A few years ago they weren't alone, but there are few companies which rival them today, maybe only Norbsoft and Cleve Blackmore.

Well it doesn't need clarification only in so much as just to explain what were these trials of Hades they put you through yo make you sooooo anti.

Frankly I have all they sell. I pay, download, install. And I haven't had to interact with them beyond that in all the years I have been buying them. So a bit of a loss to think what they could have Done to you.

It's just a piece of software not a car.

All the whining about release dates and speed on content creation is just a bunch of people who act like kids who can't get their sweeties.

It is what it is and dictated by the size of operation and the fact this is nothing more than a hobbyist genre.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on August 05, 2018, 03:08:14 AM
This started as a post about the status of CM and CMSF 2. Which I was following as GH is where I come mostly.

But yet again it's polluted by the same people saying the same old shite  about their own personal axe to grind about BF.

Be nice of they could just leave one post alone for those of us that do like the game and to follow where things are.

Because I say again. We know. You have told us all before. And given the vitriol behind what you say I still fail to see why you waste time posting anything about the game.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Pete Dero on August 05, 2018, 03:47:17 AM
There are hundreds of shooters and RPG's available so I see no reason why a couple of similar wargames can't exist next to each other.

I would have liked to install Shock Force 2 in July using the upgrade option but my HD is full of unplayed games so life goes on.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on August 05, 2018, 03:50:15 AM
I remember a scenario in Combat Mission Battle for Normandy that had me controlling almost an entire Battalion of combat power: almost an entire battalion of Squad-sized elements. Fucking nightmare.

In fairness, that is probably an issue with the scenario designer doing something CM was never really intended to do. You could map out an entire city and deploy a full regiment on each side, but just because you can, doesn't mean you should...

CM works best, IMO, as a company-level simulation i.e. you have a company of assets on either side. The large maps are used as a selling point and there are indeed command and control links up to battalion level, but as you say it becomes cumbersome at that level to issue orders to every squad - particularly in real time.

A good scenario designer will accept the natural limitations of the game. But that's no different from any other game. You can set up 24 ASL boards and try to run an entire regiment - and some have - but it will take you weeks to finish. Some guys like that level of insanity, so you can't judge the game itself if you're not one of them.

It's also a natural instinct for players (and bad scenario designers) to want to make use of all the equipment available to them. Also comes down to play style, some guys like a nice, small chess match of evenly balanced forces, others just want to blow stuff up and watch lots of tanks roll around. CM will let you do both. It's not really designed to produce a chess match between entire brigades.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on August 05, 2018, 06:50:15 AM
Not to mention, the Graviteam games receive frequent updates and DLCs.

And the DLC is nothing more than a scenario. Some.times one or two new units. These aren't major game changing DLC not even minor. Frankly it just highlights another weakness of the graviteam games in that there is no proper scenario maker. I have access to the same thing for free in the CM scenario repository.

You said you like the game...so why do you insist on knocking it at every opportunity? You do not need to attack one game in order to defend another. It really discredits and weakens your defense of CM. Its a textbook example of a fallacious argument. Ad hominem tu quoque. FYI - Not a persuasive way to argue a point at all. 
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on August 05, 2018, 06:51:43 AM
This started as a post about the status of CM and CMSF 2. Which I was following as GH is where I come mostly.

It would be a really short thread if that is all that was discussed in it, since Steve and BF don't really provide much to talk about...
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on August 05, 2018, 07:25:56 AM
Not to mention, the Graviteam games receive frequent updates and DLCs.

And the DLC is nothing more than a scenario. Some.times one or two new units. These aren't major game changing DLC not even minor. Frankly it just highlights another weakness of the graviteam games in that there is no proper scenario maker. I have access to the same thing for free in the CM scenario repository.

You said you like the game...so why do you insist on knocking it at every opportunity? You do not need to attack one game in order to defend another. It really discredits and weakens your defense of CM. Its a textbook example of a fallacious argument. Ad hominem tu quoque. FYI - Not a persuasive way to argue a point at all.

Well as far as the DLC goes that is just a statement of fact. You are the one interpreting it as "knocking" the game. I have bought them all. As I have said before I like the graviteam games and I can see why, mostly due to the appeal of the graphics engine and it's more visceral nature, others like it.

You say I am knocking their games but  in effect I am just countering the arguments others who are constantly using to do what you accuse me of to CM yet you choose not to criticise them.

They are both good games in their own right but others live in this nether world where everything is great with graviteam and not with CM but you choose to ignore that as well.

What I do knock about the game is justified comment and primarily.ljves around the fact that large chunks of it are not explained anywhere that makes them understandable.

It is somewhat ironic that in a thread filled with people's one sided criticism of CM and BF you choose to pick a fight with what i said about graviteam. None of which was anything more than fact ... not actually opinion at all as even those who are blinkered tend to agree with them. Especially seeing as i am not the one here making verbose strident comments about "never buying another game" or "not having any space on my hard drive for BF games"

Have quite clearly said I like both games and have equally bought everything from graviteam as I have from BF. No comments from me about never purchasing a graviteam game again or other such BS. Am simply pointing to some of it's failings. A large part of which is around the game not having a level of documentation or interface that enable me to fully play it properly.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zulu1966 on August 05, 2018, 07:29:56 AM
This started as a post about the status of CM and CMSF 2. Which I was following as GH is where I come mostly.

It would be a really short thread if that is all that was discussed in it, since Steve and BF don't really provide much to talk about...

Well not sure I see the connection between the length of the thread and it's usefulness
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on August 05, 2018, 07:50:30 AM
Not to mention, the Graviteam games receive frequent updates and DLCs.

And the DLC is nothing more than a scenario. Some.times one or two new units. These aren't major game changing DLC not even minor. Frankly it just highlights another weakness of the graviteam games in that there is no proper scenario maker. I have access to the same thing for free in the CM scenario repository.

You said you like the game...so why do you insist on knocking it at every opportunity? You do not need to attack one game in order to defend another. It really discredits and weakens your defense of CM. Its a textbook example of a fallacious argument. Ad hominem tu quoque. FYI - Not a persuasive way to argue a point at all.

Well as far as the DLC goes that is just a statement of fact. You are the one interpreting it as "knocking" the game. I have bought them all. As I have said before I like the graviteam games and I can see why, mostly due to the appeal of the graphics engine and it's more visceral nature, others like it.

You say I am knocking their games but  in effect I am just countering the arguments others who are constantly using to do what you accuse me of to CM yet you choose not to criticise them.

They are both good games in their own right but others live in this nether world where everything is great with graviteam and not with CM but you choose to ignore that as well.

What I do knock about the game is justified comment and primarily.ljves around the fact that large chunks of it are not explained anywhere that makes them understandable.

It is somewhat ironic that in a thread filled with people's one sided criticism of CM and BF you choose to pick a fight with what i said about graviteam. None of which was anything more than fact ... not actually opinion at all as even those who are blinkered tend to agree with them. Especially seeing as i am not the one here making verbose strident comments about "never buying another game" or "not having any space on my hard drive for BF games"

Have quite clearly said I like both games and have equally bought everything from graviteam as I have from BF. No comments from me about never purchasing a graviteam game again or other such BS. Am simply pointing to some of it's failings. A large part of which is around the game not having a level of documentation or interface that enable me to fully play it properly.

Yes. Zulu...you win. If you say it, its fact. If anybody else says it, its opinion.

My patience with you wears thin.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: dinsdale on August 05, 2018, 06:29:51 PM
Well it doesn't need clarification only in so much as just to explain what were these trials of Hades they put you through yo make you sooooo anti.

Frankly I have all they sell. I pay, download, install. And I haven't had to interact with them beyond that in all the years I have been buying them. So a bit of a loss to think what they could have Done to you.

It's just a piece of software not a car.

All the whining about release dates and speed on content creation is just a bunch of people who act like kids who can't get their sweeties.

It is what it is and dictated by the size of operation and the fact this is nothing more than a hobbyist genre.

They've done nothing to me, and I don't think I am "soooooo anti" Perhaps you are confused with someone else, or do you assume any critique makes someone as rabidly opinionated about Battlefront as you are.

I was pointing out something you don't seem to understand, and continue to not understand despite claiming the contrary, that customer experience is more than whether the game is fun, hence why people in this thread have said they don't play anymore.

Apparently, that was all it took to trigger your defense complex about battlefront and led you to write a post about cars and sweets.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Ubercat on August 05, 2018, 07:39:22 PM
I personally have no beef with the games themselves or their mechanics. Itís BFís absurd DRM and contempt for their customers that gets me. Life is too short to spend 2-3 days on a support ticket every time I dare to take a few months off from playing the games. It ainít worth it.  :idiot2:
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: WallysWorld on August 08, 2018, 10:34:31 AM
CMSF2 pre-orders are available: Combat Mission Shock Force 2 (https://www.battlefront.com/shock-force-2/)  Click on each module to drill down into its webpage with information and screenshots.

But those with CMFS1 like myself will have to wait to see what discounts there are to upgrade to CMSF2.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on August 08, 2018, 11:12:53 AM
I'm concerned about the upgrades. I anticipate it being a nightmare to get everything patched and working, unless they just make available new files for download. The base game and the Marines DLC, I bought on CD. The remaining modules I bought digital versions. Its always been a difficult, frustrating experience getting the whole series re-installed.

Was hoping it would be a little cheaper to re-purchase the entire package. Was also hoping the entire package would be made available as single file.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Pete Dero on August 08, 2018, 11:18:41 AM
I'm concerned about the upgrades. I anticipate it being a nightmare to get everything patched and working, unless they just make available new files for download. The base game and the Marines DLC, I bought on CD. The remaining modules I bought digital versions. Its always been a difficult, frustrating experience getting the whole series re-installed.

Was hoping it would be a little cheaper to re-purchase the entire package. Was also hoping the entire package would be made available as single file.

You need to prove you own v1 to upgrade to v2.  At that point you don't need to have v1 installed.  You will get access to v2 as a complete new game with no patching of the old one involved.
So if you want you can have the two games installed side by side.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: WallysWorld on August 08, 2018, 11:33:43 AM
I too bought CMSF1 on CD and the modules as downloads. I still have the original emails from 2007 when I bought the game.

I think Steve from BF wrote their new website doesn't track the very old purchases, but that they have records of the early CMSF1 purchases as some other people were asking why their early purchase of CMSF1 was not on the new website.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Cyrano on August 08, 2018, 12:06:14 PM
The discount hinted at is reasonable enough for upgrades, but I certainly share the angst  re: how they'll manage all that.

I pre-ordered one digital copy all those years ago and then bought two others on deep discount when their distribution deal fell through.

I've successfully updated two installs for several years now, but this could prove an adventure...

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on August 08, 2018, 03:19:54 PM
I have my gratis copies of v1 which I can reinstall, but I'm curious - I never bothered with the Marines, NATO, or British upgrades. Will these be included with CMSF 2.0 (I'm guessing no) and if not, will these be updated/upgraded separately? And if so, when?

EDIT - ah, I see they have some bundles https://www.battlefront.com/shock-force-2/

$120 for CMSF2 and all the upgraded modules. I have CMSF1.0 but none of the version 1 modules, so I suppose I will upgrade my original and then just buy the upgraded modules at their full price.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on August 08, 2018, 03:24:27 PM
But those with CMFS1 like myself will have to wait to see what discounts there are to upgrade to CMSF2.

It seems a bit backwards to me that those who supported the early versions of the game should be the last to get the new ones, unless they manage to release the 1.0-->2.0 upgrades prior to the preorders.

Some of the preorder incentives have been nice over the years (though some were mismanaged, like running out of steel-books), but am I remembering correctly that preorder customers were given the same priority on downloading and shipping as the release day customers?

In this case, they're offering a whopping $5 discount.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on August 08, 2018, 03:38:57 PM
Well I guess we have time to figure it all out anyway since the new "target" is end of September for release....
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on August 08, 2018, 03:43:34 PM
Well I guess we have time to figure it all out anyway since the new "target" is end of September for release....

No. We just have more time to wait before we have to go through the hassle of figuring it all out since there probably won't be any answers to the many questions until after release.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Cyrano on August 08, 2018, 03:46:09 PM
If, and I stress if, there's no intention to patch existing installs but merely seek proof that we own legitimate copies of the game and give us a fresh version and license for v2, that would certainly ease matters; and it would shorten significantly the wait.

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on August 08, 2018, 03:51:59 PM
Well I guess we have time to figure it all out anyway since the new "target" is end of September for release....

No. We just have more time to wait before we have to go through the hassle of figuring it all out since there probably won't be any answers to the many questions until after release.

Yep, my comment was meant to be sarcastic:)  I'll be stunned if it even releases in 2018...must have been some vacation the person was on they didn't account for to have minimally two month delay.

I don't even know if I can prove I own the first since was on CD and no way I am paying full price again...
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: IICptMillerII on August 08, 2018, 04:27:36 PM
If you own the original game and all of the modules, the upgrade price is $35 USD. Not sure how it'll work for people who only own some modules and not all.

CMSF2 will be its own install. As in, there will be no hassle of patching or anything like that You buy CMSF2, download it as a completely separate game, install it and play.

All order histories are tracked except a very specific few. Apparently, all one needs to do is submit a support ticket and they will verify the purchase data.

Hopefully we get something soon.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Pinetree on August 08, 2018, 07:12:24 PM
It's $15 to upgrade the base game & $10 per module or $35 to upgrade the lot. I never got the Nato module so it's still $35 for me anyway. Plus another $35 to purchase the v.2 Nato module.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on August 08, 2018, 07:20:10 PM
If you own the original game and all of the modules, the upgrade price is $35 USD. Not sure how it'll work for people who only own some modules and not all.

CMSF2 will be its own install. As in, there will be no hassle of patching or anything like that You buy CMSF2, download it as a completely separate game, install it and play.

All order histories are tracked except a very specific few. Apparently, all one needs to do is submit a support ticket and they will verify the purchase data.

Hopefully we get something soon.

I hope they do make it easy, not sure if I trust their system to easily have data that is over 10 years old....I seem to have the download file, but could of sworn I got on CD too...but I don't have any receipt or email confirmations still and haven't located the CD.  Although I do have the license code.  For $35, I will be willing to upgrade, but I just hope I don't have to wait for weeks until after release for them to figure it out.  And if for whatever reason they don't have my order information, hope they "trust" their past customers.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Ubercat on August 08, 2018, 08:14:37 PM
I hope they do make it easy,
Quote
And if for whatever reason they don't have my order information, hope they "trust" their past customers.

 :DD  Sorry, nothing personal.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: DennisS on August 08, 2018, 08:28:12 PM
CMBB is one of the greatest computer wargames of all-time.

One of the greatest wargames, for sure. I keep looking at games that have that similar feel. Same thing for Sid Meier's Gettysburg...there are similar games, but the execution just isn't what I need.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: dinsdale on August 08, 2018, 08:50:32 PM
$35 for a complete upgrade is very reasonable, they deserve credit for considering an 11 year old game an upgrade price.

I can't think of many others that have done anything like this, maybe Lock and Load did it for the inital command ops 2 release.  I've lost count of the number of Football Managers and Hearts of Irons I've bought at full price, and I the only one surprised they've given this much of a discount?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Destraex on August 08, 2018, 11:26:21 PM
I saw something somewhere that said each module was $10 for existing owners. Stand by ion control.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Destraex on August 08, 2018, 11:33:21 PM
Found it but cannot upload from phone atm.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Destraex on August 09, 2018, 03:37:50 AM
Here it is:
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1833/43894954332_5e482b95c0_z.jpg)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on August 09, 2018, 03:48:37 AM
yep, couple people confirmed upgrade pricing above....
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Destraex on August 09, 2018, 04:38:50 AM
Yeah. It's hard on the phone at work. I only had time to read the last page here.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on August 09, 2018, 09:17:25 AM
Well, I imagine I can just upgrade my original game but would have to buy the new modules at the full price (if I decide to) since I never had the originals. That's fair as well.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 09, 2018, 07:32:08 PM
Geez.....I gotta poke my head in more frequently......miss a minute and ya miss a lot.

To answer a question that a coupla/few have asked, I've had access to the customer base and order base for about a month now (it was above my paygrade before). I can dig up any orders since 2007 (I can't swear off the top of my head what month of 2007 but before CMSF was released). So, if people can't find their old orders open a Help Desk ticket and I can find it. The most common problem is when someone has created 2 accounts and don't know it or remember doing it.


Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Cyrano on August 10, 2018, 11:04:15 AM
@Elvis -- You're a gentleman and a scholar.

What hope for those, if I may ask, who did not order from BFC but purchased the hard-case version at retail?

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 10, 2018, 11:24:04 AM
@Elvis -- You're a gentleman and a scholar.

What hope for those, if I may ask, who did not order from BFC but purchased the hard-case version at retail?


Good question. The Paradox purchases are something that I specifically asked about. People who got the Battlefront  "Retail Upgrade" had their keys converted to Battlefront keys with that. So, they will qualify.  People who never did that won't. There just isn't a way to use Paradox keys in the system (or frankly even know if they are actual keys to anything). So, they won't be eligible.  If memory serves me correctly there was a point that regular patches wouldn't work with the Paradox. And also, if memory serves, I don't think you could run a module on the Paradox version.  So, my guess would be that there are very few CMSF players who own just the base game without the Retail Upgrade that are still paying attention to CMSF. But that is pure speculation.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 10, 2018, 11:31:17 AM
Another oddbally type question was if someone originally purchased a Windows version but now has a Mac. It won't matter. Keys have not been platform specific since CMFB was released and the download (as with the 4.0 Upgrade) links allow someone to download either platform's version of the game. Heck, for that matter...if you own both a Mac and Windows computer you can have the game installed on both because you'll have access to both downloads and the key will work for both.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Pete Dero on August 10, 2018, 11:40:36 AM
@Elvis -- You're a gentleman and a scholar.

What hope for those, if I may ask, who did not order from BFC but purchased the hard-case version at retail?
Good question. The Paradox purchases are something that I specifically asked about. People who got the Battlefront  "Retail Upgrade" had their keys converted to Battlefront keys with that.

I have the Paradox version but bought on Gamersgate (patched to v 1.10 and 1.20) and this one doesn't appear in my account (I have an activation code/key).
The 3 expansions are bought from the Battlefront store and are in my orders.

Will this be a problem to get the full upgrade package ?

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 10, 2018, 01:07:30 PM
@Elvis -- You're a gentleman and a scholar.

What hope for those, if I may ask, who did not order from BFC but purchased the hard-case version at retail?
Good question. The Paradox purchases are something that I specifically asked about. People who got the Battlefront  "Retail Upgrade" had their keys converted to Battlefront keys with that.

I have the Paradox version but bought on Gamersgate (patched to v 1.10 and 1.20) and this one doesn't appear in my account (I have an activation code/key).
The 3 expansions are bought from the Battlefront store and are in my orders.

Will this be a problem to get the full upgrade package ?

Without having double checked your key it sure sound like you would.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on August 10, 2018, 06:12:48 PM
@Elvis -- You're a gentleman and a scholar.

What hope for those, if I may ask, who did not order from BFC but purchased the hard-case version at retail?
Good question. The Paradox purchases are something that I specifically asked about. People who got the Battlefront  "Retail Upgrade" had their keys converted to Battlefront keys with that.

I have the Paradox version but bought on Gamersgate (patched to v 1.10 and 1.20) and this one doesn't appear in my account (I have an activation code/key).
The 3 expansions are bought from the Battlefront store and are in my orders.

Will this be a problem to get the full upgrade package ?

Without having double checked your key it sure sound like you would.

Elvis, do we know how the upgrade process will work and what exact info we would need to provide?  meaning, when we go to order, will will need to provide serial number and order number of original game at that time?  Will it be just like ordering off the web site or will we have to go through some other process to get the upgrade pricing?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 10, 2018, 08:00:16 PM
@Elvis -- You're a gentleman and a scholar.

What hope for those, if I may ask, who did not order from BFC but purchased the hard-case version at retail?
Good question. The Paradox purchases are something that I specifically asked about. People who got the Battlefront  "Retail Upgrade" had their keys converted to Battlefront keys with that.

I have the Paradox version but bought on Gamersgate (patched to v 1.10 and 1.20) and this one doesn't appear in my account (I have an activation code/key).
The 3 expansions are bought from the Battlefront store and are in my orders.

Will this be a problem to get the full upgrade package ?

Without having double checked your key it sure sound like you would.

Elvis, do we know how the upgrade process will work and what exact info we would need to provide?  meaning, when we go to order, will will need to provide serial number and order number of original game at that time?  Will it be just like ordering off the web site or will we have to go through some other process to get the upgrade pricing?

My understanding is that all of the old CMSF keys are being incorporated into the newer (since CMBN) system  and will be matched up to any purchases of the Upgrade version of CMSF2.  The mechanics of that are above my paygrade other than it can be handled manually as well as being automated.  I  personally haven't seen how it functions but my understanding is that when you order the Upgrade you'll enter your existing CMSF key(s) during the purchase and it will match it up in the database...or something similar to that.

As the tech support guy I definitely assume that there will be issues for some people (it's the default position in tech support) but hope and assume it will be the minority and not the majority that will need to contact me. RyanE will be one of them....ya I'm looking at you .😀 Just kidding....I hope it goes smoothly for him as well if he decides to get the Upgrade.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 11, 2018, 10:39:03 AM
I did get more information on how the mechanics of how the CMSF Upgrade will work regarding the old game verification.  It's even more simple than I had guessed.  I actually feel thick headed in not assuming it would work this way. The system will work exactly like the current system works for all 4.0 Upgrades. Anyone can buy the Upgrade...whether you have the original or not. But you will need to old keys to "unlock" the content.  So, once you've installed the Upgrade you use the Activate New Products utility to activate the base game and any modules with your old keys.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Cyrano on August 11, 2018, 11:38:05 AM
Cool.

Two installs per key still?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Pete Dero on August 11, 2018, 12:05:22 PM
I did get more information on how the mechanics of how the CMSF Upgrade will work regarding the old game verification.  It's even more simple than I had guessed.  I actually feel thick headed in not assuming it would work this way. The system will work exactly like the current system works for all 4.0 Upgrades. Anyone can buy the Upgrade...whether you have the original or not. But you will need to old keys to "unlock" the content.  So, once you've installed the Upgrade you use the Activate New Products utility to activate the base game and any modules with your old keys.

Small issue (maybe ?) : The Gamersgate key I have (xxxxxx-xxxxxx-xxxxxx-xxxxxx) doesn't resemble the keys Battlefront uses. 
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 11, 2018, 01:53:01 PM
The number of activations per key is the same as always.

Gamersgate keys will be the same as I mentioned earlier about the Paradox keys.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on August 11, 2018, 02:14:20 PM
So if have used up the activations, we'll have to have then reset?  btw, I thought it was 5 activations on new products with the new activation systems?  IIRC, CMSF had a license/de-license ability.  Will I have to de-license CMSF on my machine?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Pete Dero on August 11, 2018, 02:21:45 PM
So if have used up the activations, we'll have to have then reset?  btw, I thought it was 5 activations on new products with the new activation systems?  IIRC, CMSF had a license/de-license ability.  Will I have to de-license CMSF on my machine?

I think I read somewhere you can have the 2 versions next to each other.  (Missions, campaigns and mods you downloaded or made for v1 most likely will not work on v2)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Snapper on August 11, 2018, 02:22:04 PM
@Elvis -- You're a gentleman and a scholar.

What hope for those, if I may ask, who did not order from BFC but purchased the hard-case version at retail?


Good question. The Paradox purchases are something that I specifically asked about. People who got the Battlefront  "Retail Upgrade" had their keys converted to Battlefront keys with that. So, they will qualify.  People who never did that won't. There just isn't a way to use Paradox keys in the system (or frankly even know if they are actual keys to anything). So, they won't be eligible.  If memory serves me correctly there was a point that regular patches wouldn't work with the Paradox. And also, if memory serves, I don't think you could run a module on the Paradox version.  So, my guess would be that there are very few CMSF players who own just the base game without the Retail Upgrade that are still paying attention to CMSF. But that is pure speculation.


Thats a little harsh being as one can play the main game with a module on top of a Paradox version and only use the Battlefront module license as activation.

It's pretty obvious if someone has modules in their Battlefront account but no retail patch that they have the main game as why buy the addons in the first place?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 11, 2018, 06:47:20 PM
So if have used up the activations, we'll have to have then reset?  btw, I thought it was 5 activations on new products with the new activation systems?  IIRC, CMSF had a license/de-license ability.  Will I have to de-license CMSF on my machine?

I hope this talk about the backend system isn't too inside baseball and makes sense.

Keys in the newer system are assigned "assets". Which are a designation for what it will activate.  The old CMSF keys that are migrated into the new system become keys in the new system and are assigned assets based on what they were under the older system. They are effectively new keys in the new system.  So they will come with 4 activations each. With additional activations every year available (although,  in practical terms it happens so rarely that anyone needs more than that we have never refused to add activations based on date...so it really is as many as someone needs.....I suppose if someone asked for a new one every week it may raise a red flag that someone is giving them all away or selling them for $5 each on eBay or somefink....but that hasn't happened in the 7 or 8 years I've been doing this).
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 11, 2018, 06:54:37 PM
@Elvis -- You're a gentleman and a scholar.

What hope for those, if I may ask, who did not order from BFC but purchased the hard-case version at retail?


Good question. The Paradox purchases are something that I specifically asked about. People who got the Battlefront  "Retail Upgrade" had their keys converted to Battlefront keys with that. So, they will qualify.  People who never did that won't. There just isn't a way to use Paradox keys in the system (or frankly even know if they are actual keys to anything). So, they won't be eligible.  If memory serves me correctly there was a point that regular patches wouldn't work with the Paradox. And also, if memory serves, I don't think you could run a module on the Paradox version.  So, my guess would be that there are very few CMSF players who own just the base game without the Retail Upgrade that are still paying attention to CMSF. But that is pure speculation.

Thats a little harsh being as one can play the main game with a module on top of a Paradox version and only use the Battlefront module license as activation.

It's pretty obvious if someone has modules in their Battlefront account but no retail patch that they have the main game as why buy the addons in the first place?

Again, I'm doing this from memory from a pretty long time ago and the affects on me of the late 70's/early 80's have lessened my memory,  I remember it as needing a Battlefront version to to run the modules. I could be wrong about that.

And regarding people with just the base Paradox etc...versions have keys that we have no way of tracking.  I could type out 17 random numbers and letters and say it's my Paradox key and I'd have exactly the same knowledge of that as if you sent a real key.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Snapper on August 12, 2018, 12:44:20 AM
So if i have the Paradox version minus the retail patch but have all the modules, i have to buy the main game again?

Why not base the discount on modules, as surely it must be assumed that if you have the any of the modules you have the main game (which takes out the uncertainty of not knowing the Paradox keys).

A trust thing if you like. .

This way everyone gets treated fairly.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on August 12, 2018, 01:20:27 AM
"With additional activations every year available"

Steve had said years ago that this wasn't happening.  That's why they are so lenient on resetting activations.  Has that changed?  Are we now getting activations each year?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Tuna on August 12, 2018, 06:48:34 AM
So if i have the Paradox version minus the retail patch but have all the modules, i have to buy the main game again?

Why not base the discount on modules, as surely it must be assumed that if you have the any of the modules you have the main game (which takes out the uncertainty of not knowing the Paradox keys).

A trust thing if you like. .

This way everyone gets treated fairly.

I thought I had to buy the 'retail' patch in order to get modules?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 12, 2018, 07:35:25 AM
So if i have the Paradox version minus the retail patch but have all the modules, i have to buy the main game again?

Why not base the discount on modules, as surely it must be assumed that if you have the any of the modules you have the main game (which takes out the uncertainty of not knowing the Paradox keys).

A trust thing if you like. .

This way everyone gets treated fairly.

As Tuna says, I remember that people needed the retail patch to be able to run the modules but regardless, say my memory is wrong (you wouldn't be the first). The module keys will 100% be in the new system, so the discounted Upgrade would apply to them and only the base game would not get the discounted Upgrade. That is the worst case scenario. Best case scenario is the whole shebang gets it.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 12, 2018, 07:38:50 AM
"With additional activations every year available"

Steve had said years ago that this wasn't happening.  That's why they are so lenient on resetting activations.  Has that changed?  Are we now getting activations each year?

Don't know. If you're asking if you/Steve/whoever thought it was an automated process and now, unexpectedly, it's manual? Don't know.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on August 12, 2018, 08:24:39 AM
No, the question remains the same...do we get new activations every year?  My guess would be no.  Though there still is no way track activations is there?

So again, to avoid confusion and dragging the conversation on longer than it needs to be, do we get new activations each year.  If so, I should have gotten the original 5 on CMBN, plus 7-8 activations minus the number of times I have reinstalled it.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 12, 2018, 08:50:34 AM
No, the question remains the same...do we get new activations every year?  My guess would be no.  Though there still is no way track activations is there?

So again, to avoid confusion and dragging the conversation on longer than it needs to be, do we get new activations each year.  If so, I should have gotten the original 5 on CMBN, plus 7-8 activations minus the number of times I have reinstalled it.

I probably wasn't clear when I said that I don't know. I don't know if the system automatically adds activations each year.if I were to guess then I would guess that it doesn't but it's hard to tell. The few times that I have manually added activations I didn't look at the dates. So they may have been used up in less than a year and I never hear from someone over a year because they've been automatically added. Don't know. Maybe. I know I've never turned anyone down or, again, bothered to check the dates. I just want to get people back in action as quickly as possible.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on August 12, 2018, 10:28:47 AM
Since you seem to kind rep the company, would it be too much to ask.  This has com up multiple times around the web and no has ever given a real official answer.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Snapper on August 12, 2018, 11:00:04 AM
So if i have the Paradox version minus the retail patch but have all the modules, i have to buy the main game again?

Why not base the discount on modules, as surely it must be assumed that if you have the any of the modules you have the main game (which takes out the uncertainty of not knowing the Paradox keys).

A trust thing if you like. .

This way everyone gets treated fairly.

I thought I had to buy the 'retail' patch in order to get modules?

Nope - I've all modules running and never bought the retail patch.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 12, 2018, 08:56:45 PM
Since you seem to kind rep the company, would it be too much to ask.  This has com up multiple times around the web and no has ever given a real official answer.

Sure. If I can. What would you like to ask?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on August 13, 2018, 03:31:14 AM
Really?  How aboutr reading my posts.  Thats what I'm asking.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 13, 2018, 05:11:49 AM
Really?  How aboutr reading my posts.  Thats what I'm asking.

Oh! Yup. I did that.  Any other questions?

Are you referring to the automated auditioning of activations? If so, I did answer it. Twice. I can do it again if you'd like: I don't know.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on August 13, 2018, 05:22:21 AM
Let me simplify it for you because you seem to have a real hard time answering in a straight forward manner.

1) Are you speaking officially for BFC?
2) As was promised when the DRM rolled out, are new activations activated automatically every year?
3) If the answer to 2 is no, is anyone keeping track of how many activations are left?
4) Is anyone keeping track of how many years someone owns a product and how many activations they are allowed based on that?

I mean, I think you are being pretty specious here.  You come across as being all helpful, but as soon as someone starts to push a little, you start weird logic trains hoping to outlast them.  Example, I asked pretty straight forward questions and you have made me repeat them several times. 
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Pete Dero on August 13, 2018, 05:51:17 AM
http://community.battlefront.com/topic/127069-new-computer-do-i-need-to-unlicense/

The new licensing system used by everything other than the original shock force does not need un-licensing. The new system has some number of activations allowed stored in the license server. Once you hit that you will not be allowed to license it but you can contact support and get more. Way back I remember that the initial number was 4. Bottom line is that most likely you will license the games on the new machine and all will be well. If not then open a support ticket and they will sort things out.



Introducing Battlefront's Online Activation System

https://battlefront.mojohelpdesk.com/help/article/127981

Our End User License Agreement allows you to have the game activated on one PC and one backup PC.

In addition to the above 4 activations, you can add one extra activation to your key every 365 days. In order to do this, please point your browser to http://www.battlefront.com/helpdesk to ask our support team for a reset.
If your key is eligible for an additional activation (e.g. if it was not already requested less than 365 days ago), then youíll be notified of it and the activation is automatically added to your key, so you can use it again.

Should you ever need an additional activation more than once within the 365 days period, then you can always contact our License Activation Support staff and explain the situation.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on August 13, 2018, 05:57:00 AM
That at least answers a couple of the questions.  I find it a guessing game every time I have to reinstall as whether I have activations left or not.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on August 13, 2018, 06:07:59 AM
They should implement something like DCS, where when you go to activate the license, it tells you how many activations you have remaining.

RyanE, please try to cool down a little. Elvis is kind enough to communicate with us in our forums and we want to encourage developers to do so. No need to be so bellicose. Give him the benefit of the doubt.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 13, 2018, 06:24:09 AM
RyanE, I will answer, again, as well as I can.

1) No.

2) I don't know. I don't know about "promises " to have activations added in an automated way (not sure how many times I can say that I don't know.....I suppose you can keep asking and I'll make something up to stop the question at some point...I'm sure I can come up with some bullshit). I do know the exact wording on the old site said (haven't looked at it on the new site) ended with "......a new activation will be available every 365 days." No mention of automated or otherwise.  So, I continue to not know and you might want to drop a note to the person who made the promise.

3) No one is monitoring anyone's usage but a key can be checked manually for the number of used and unused activations.

4) I don't know anything about whether or not individual people's usage is being tracked or monitored by someone.  The number is activations a key has is certainly counted (automated) and their purchase dates are certainly retaatned but, again, I don't know if someone is sorting through them on a regular basis monitoring each person's activity.  The system does a good enough job notifying someone when they have used up available activations. And I can't see why anyone would be bothered spending a minute of free time monitoring each players activities.

And yes, you did ask straight forward questions.  And I answered them in a straight forward way. You asked the same question twice and I said that I didn't know twice. I didn't make you repeat them. You just chose not to read or accept my answer.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 13, 2018, 06:43:53 AM
Shitballs....should have read Peter's quote before replying.  That looks like what I remember seeing on the website . Would have saved me some thumb typing on my phone if I had seen it first.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on August 13, 2018, 08:29:36 AM
"You asked the same question twice and I said that I didn't know twice. I didn't make you repeat them. You just chose not to read or accept my answer."

Then why did you ask me to repeat the question again.  I asked if you could ask BFC for an official answer.

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 13, 2018, 08:50:50 AM
"You asked the same question twice and I said that I didn't know twice. I didn't make you repeat them. You just chose not to read or accept my answer."

Then why did you ask me to repeat the question again.  I asked if you could ask BFC for an official answer.

I actually just re-read your questions and not once did you ask me to go ask someone else at BFC for an official answer. Not once. Nor did I ever ask for you to repeat your question.

It seems moot now that Pete Niro did find the official BFC posted answer.

Regarding how many activations you have left. If you open a ticket and paste the keys that you are unsure about it is simple for me to look them up and let you know how many activations you're used. I'm spending much of today (and the rest of the week) at the hospital but will get you the information as quickly as possible. If it is something that needs immediate attention (like, trying to activate something and having no activations left and I don't have access to the key information then I will refer it to someone who can get on it faster).
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on August 13, 2018, 08:56:34 AM

Regarding how many activations you have left. If you open a ticket and paste the keys that you are unsure about it is simple for me to look them up and let you know how many activations you're used. I'm spending much of today (and the rest of the week) at the hospital but will get you the information as quickly as possible. If it is something that needs immediate attention (like, trying to activate something and having no activations left and I don't have access to the key information then I will refer it to someone who can get on it faster).

I think this is part of the whole problem and the reason why people get so irritated with Battlefront. It isn't a system that is fair to customers, or to you, quite frankly on the other end. Why should customers have to go through the trouble of opening a ticket and digging up all of their codes just to find out how many activiations they have. The problem is even more irritating when a game they have paid for is unable to be played because they are out of activations and now have to open the ticket and wait for action. There are so many better ways...

I know I know...its a small company. I suppose if this issue was addressed, we wouldn't see CMSF2 until sometime in 2020.  :crazy2:
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Tuna on August 13, 2018, 09:18:02 AM
Keep in mind, Elvis is one of the few bright points of Battlefront!
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Ubercat on August 13, 2018, 10:13:27 AM
Do you know of any others? :D
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 13, 2018, 11:25:05 AM
It's not for me to say what is important to some people.  For me I never gave a second thought to how many activations I had left and it's only fairly recently that that I've been given the keys to kingdom and can reset my own. I'm on my second computer since I got Normandy so I know I have at least 2 for each title. 3 for the release since 8 got my current rig. I do know that RyanEs situation is very different because I think he gets multiple new computers every year. So, I don't underestimate the value that it would have for him. And my comment isn't meant to diminish the value it would have for some people. Which is a great thing with Steam.  It goes with you from computer to computer.

And is any system perfect? I've definitely had my issues with Steam.  I had a big time issue with EA's Origins or whatever their Steam-like system is called. Even the Xbox I got the family this past xmas gives me fits about a couple of things (the one that irks me the most is that when we were setting it up I couldn't remember my Microsoft Live login information and out of frustration my son used his account to activate Madden.....now I can only use Madden as a "guest" and there's no way to transfer it to me). Maybe there's a perfect system and I'm sure this will responses about systems that are better but the bottom line is that it is what it is.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on August 13, 2018, 12:44:48 PM
It's not for me to say what is important to some people.  For me I never gave a second thought to how many activations I had left and it's only fairly recently that that I've been given the keys to kingdom and can reset my own. I'm on my second computer since I got Normandy so I know I have at least 2 for each title. 3 for the release since 8 got my current rig. I do know that RyanEs situation is very different because I think he gets multiple new computers every year. So, I don't underestimate the value that it would have for him. And my comment isn't meant to diminish the value it would have for some people. Which is a great thing with Steam.  It goes with you from computer to computer.

And is any system perfect? I've definitely had my issues with Steam.  I had a big time issue with EA's Origins or whatever their Steam-like system is called. Even the Xbox I got the family this past xmas gives me fits about a couple of things (the one that irks me the most is that when we were setting it up I couldn't remember my Microsoft Live login information and out of frustration my son used his account to activate Madden.....now I can only use Madden as a "guest" and there's no way to transfer it to me). Maybe there's a perfect system and I'm sure this will responses about systems that are better but the bottom line is that it is what it is.

There is no perfect system to be sure, but the system currently used by Battlefront is certainly one of the worst. Sorry, it is a system that has time and time again given me more aggravation and frustration than any other. YMMV.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on August 13, 2018, 02:36:26 PM
I'll keep saying it.  I have no issues with DRM.  I have issues with DRM that doesn't work for an easy playing experience.  With Steam, I download and play on any computer I have access to.  With BFC, its, at best, 50/50 whether it'll be a 24-48 hr grind of tickets and emails.

I still don't understand Elvis's role at BFC.  He says he is not officially at BFC, yet claims to be the support staff.  He seems to handle the support tickets.  Doesn't that make him an employee, even if unpaid?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 13, 2018, 08:31:13 PM
I'll keep saying it.  I have no issues with DRM.  I have issues with DRM that doesn't work for an easy playing experience.  With Steam, I download and play on any computer I have access to.  With BFC, its, at best, 50/50 whether it'll be a 24-48 hr grind of tickets and emails.

I still don't understand Elvis's role at BFC.  He says he is not officially at BFC, yet claims to be the support staff.  He seems to handle the support tickets.  Doesn't that make him an employee, even if unpaid?

First, I am definitely a paid employee.  I get money for what I do. And that money is for nothing but tech support. 

As far as the 24-48 hours thing. I have resolved some people's tickets in under 5 minutes of the submitting them. I respond to tickets on xmas,  Thanksgiving,  New Years Day,, etc.... My approach is that if I am in front of a computer then i consider myself on duty. I've been on the other side of tech support,  not just games, and appreciate how frustrating it can be waiting for a response. Also, and the is definitely not directed to you because i know you've been around the block a few times, the more information I get in the initial contact the faster things get resolved.  No lie...I get tickets sometimes where the only information I get is "my game doesn't work".....no indication of what game or what aspect isn't working..nothing.  so a few exchanges happen before I even know what someone is talking about.  Not a complaint..just nature of the beast.

Although I will say, knowing your Help Desk history,  the number of computers that you go through and your knowledge of the system.....you're ratio of the game running and not running is far far far far far higher than 50/50. If I were to guess I'd guess more in the 95/5 range in favor of it running. Not diminishing the frustration that the 5% may cause.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: IICptMillerII on August 13, 2018, 10:24:15 PM
I'll keep saying it.  I have no issues with DRM.  I have issues with DRM that doesn't work for an easy playing experience.  With Steam, I download and play on any computer I have access to.  With BFC, its, at best, 50/50 whether it'll be a 24-48 hr grind of tickets and emails.

I still don't understand Elvis's role at BFC.  He says he is not officially at BFC, yet claims to be the support staff.  He seems to handle the support tickets.  Doesn't that make him an employee, even if unpaid?

First, I am definitely a paid employee.  I get money for what I do. And that money is for nothing but tech support. 

As far as the 24-48 hours thing. I have resolved some people's tickets in under 5 minutes of the submitting them. I respond to tickets on xmas,  Thanksgiving,  New Years Day,, etc.... My approach is that if I am in front of a computer then i consider myself on duty. I've been on the other side of tech support,  not just games, and appreciate how frustrating it can be waiting for a response. Also, and the is definitely not directed to you because i know you've been around the block a few times, the more information I get in the initial contact the faster things get resolved.  No lie...I get tickets sometimes where the only information I get is "my game doesn't work".....no indication of what game or what aspect isn't working..nothing.  so a few exchanges happen before I even know what someone is talking about.  Not a complaint..just nature of the beast.

Although I will say, knowing your Help Desk history,  the number of computers that you go through and your knowledge of the system.....you're ratio of the game running and not running is far far far far far higher than 50/50. If I were to guess I'd guess more in the 95/5 range in favor of it running. Not diminishing the frustration that the 5% may cause.

I might be one of the guys who you helped out on Christmas once. If I remember correctly, my issue was regarding the v4 upgrade, which came out right around Christmas. If that was you, a sincere thank you for helping me and others during a holiday like that.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on August 14, 2018, 03:14:30 AM
My main peeve continues to be that I get a new work and home computers every year.  I have probably 15 separate CM games/modules.  Do you know hard it is to keep track of that mix with BFC's system?  Every time I get a new PC I have to re-register all of those and I have no idea how long that is going to take.  I have no idea how many activations I have.  I have twice re-bought products (CMSF and CMFI) because I ran out of activations and it was taking longer than I wanted to re-register them.

This system punishes me for getting a new PC every year.  I have never gone through this with Steam, or any other game for that matter.  Every time I get a new PC or a new module comes out, I dread the next day or two of trying to configure my systems.  Until recently, I was always making changes to my PC that would kick off CM2 DRM and chew up an activation.  It has gotten better, but after literally a decade of pain and waste time.  I was probably losing 1-2 activations a year by adding RAM, a new video card, an upgraded OS, etc.  The amount of time I have spent try to register CM games is probably close to 100 hours.

The worst part of it all is that my PCs are leaving BFC behind.  CM2 seems to run a little worse every time I upgrade the PC.  So I am getting a double whammy.  So BFC's customer sweet spot is that one guy with a 10-year old Win7 system that does nothing but play CM2.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: WargamerJoe on August 14, 2018, 03:43:32 AM
Does it not come to a point where a game (series or singular) becomes not worth the effort? I know Combat Mission has a good reputation, but nothing I've heard so far makes it seem worth the hassle you seem to have to go through due to life circumstances.

There's such a thing as voting with your wallet - It's a shame you felt you needed to re-purchase. I would have just moved on and washed my hands at that point.

It seems unlikely Battlefront are going to change, on the Steam front and on how their mode of product support operates. For someone like yourself (who has to regularly re-install stuff), it sounds like a bridge too far.

On another note - it is possible and well documented on how advancing PC tech makes the software used in older games obsolete. Depending on the games, you really have to go through hoops to optimise modern rigs for player these games. It depends how well the developer keeps up with modern developments and works those things into their games - it's not often possible.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on August 14, 2018, 04:07:57 AM
^RyanE somehow always seems to be the most extreme case in just about every scenario. He loses dongles in luggage on international flights. He buys and upgrades a dozen computers each year causing him to spend ď100 hoursĒ re-registering CM products. He sets an extremely high bar for any company to reach, especially when it comes to companies that just make niche games. He is the consummate unhappy nightmare customer and the scorn of game developers and publishers alike. Iíve seen them spend an inordinate amount of time in what frequently becomes a near endless cycle of debate and argument. However, he keeps some of these guys on their toes and has definitely been a harbinger of change.

I agree with your point entirely though...at some point, the hassle becomes too great. I mean, if you have really spent ď100 hoursĒ just sorting out registrations, is that really worth it? You only get one chance at life, and to spend nearly 4 days in a life and death struggle with the BF registration system seems like a foolís errand. Itís bad enough we waste our lives playing games, much less fighting with DRM.

Iím the type of dope who installs a lot of games and then rarely or never plays them. This happens more and more frequently as my play time becomes more and more limited. Spending so much time on installation and registration that you canít  even play the game is frustrating. Then, by the time you come back to your computer, something new and shiny has been released on steam and youíve moved on. Games like CM were gold, but they are certainly being left behind, and the DRM system and registration process is an avoidable aspect of what is making these games an anachronism.

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 14, 2018, 04:28:17 AM
I couldn't agree more Jarhead. And only an idiot, insult intended, would repurchase 2 games rather that wait "24-48" to play them?!!?!? Don't get me wrong...I love the games....but I've never [needed/i] to play a particular title so badly that I'd re-purchase it rather that wait a bit for it to be taken care of.


I didn't reply to break RyanE's stones. Just wanted to make sure to point out.....if you ever need to have your license reset with the gsclean tool he has referred to it does NOT burn/use an activation.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on August 14, 2018, 04:35:25 AM
I only play three games regularly: Command, Steel Beasts, and CM2.  I still play BOS and ROF to break up the monotony.  So for me, its still worth it.  BFC has gotten better with its DRM.  At the peak of BFCs DRM 3-5 years ago, I was losing activations at least once a month somewhere in my system across the 10-12 games.  I played them a lot across two computers and it was almost monthly that I had to ask for at least one activation for doing  something like adding RAM.

It was that point I went on a one year bender of Graviteam when they moved to Steam and Steel Beasts.  I actually went almost two years without installing a single BFC game because I gave up on the DRM.  I didn't buy any new releases (I think there was one).  I think it was CMBS that got me to try the DRM again and it seemed to finally work better.  But at that point, all my activations were gone.  Its been this angst-ridden journey of activating modules since.

Both CM2 and SB are games I play because of the game, not the developer.  I play Command because of the developer, as much as the game.  I have come to very much dislike both developers for their complete and utter disregard for their customer's time.  But, for now, the games override my disdain for the companies.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on August 14, 2018, 04:38:08 AM
I re-bought the games because I was tired submitting support tickets and waiting.  I have more money than time.  And if you think a customer is an idiot then I will take that as a personal attack from you.  Looks like you have been hanging out with Steve too long.  This is how you have always operated.  Throw small attacks out to get your point across and then act all contrite when called out.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on August 14, 2018, 05:17:34 AM
I might be the perfect storm of everything that is wrong with BFC's DRM, but I always point to BFC's own support page after a release.  I am not alone in having issues.  I am just playing the game more than most of those people.

What frustrates me the most is the circling of the wagons of the beta brigade on almost any issue that someone has.  Someone reports a problem and the very next post is usually from a beta tester saying they didn't have an issue.  Not helpful and implies the OP is either doing something wrong or is not with it.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 14, 2018, 05:36:09 AM
I think anyone is an idiot if they repurchased games they already purchased and know that a simple email or filling out a ticket to avoid repurchasing  the games....or any software.  If someone owns every title then surely they can satisfy the urge by playing CMBN while waiting word about CMFI. But hey, you got more money than time and that's how you choose to spend it, who am I to judge (even though I just did)?

And the reports of your contacts to ask for Help Desk reactivation help lack......truthiness.....it ain't hard for me to look up the contacts history. Takes less time than it took to type this.  Stop, drop and roll.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on August 14, 2018, 06:23:55 AM
Whatever other discussions about Combat Mission you guys want to have, please do not turn this into another DRM flame War

From page 1.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on August 14, 2018, 06:34:02 AM
I have the emails...am I going to have to count them?

Just checked.  between June 16 and June 20, eight emails back and forth to get all my product registered.  That is four days to get my paid for and installed products to run on a new PC.  And that is about par for the course.  How does that match up on your end?

The main issue, is a player can never know how many activations they need until they get past each module or base game.

And that is also why I rebought the games.  In the attempt previous to the above, I think at the end of 2017, I had already gone through several rounds of emails and days.  So in the end, instead of another round, I rebought all CMSF1 and a CMFI module.

Just checked, seven email on 11/20 and 11/21.  The reason it didn't go on longer is I bought the above games again.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on August 14, 2018, 06:48:17 AM
So I know no one from BFC will have any sensitivity for customer perspective on this, but how can a company think that 15 emails over six months, plus the time to go through the registration process for each individual game is a good use of their customer's time?  It shows a complete lack of respect for their customers.

And on top of that, the customer spends another $90-$100 just to overcome the issues with the registration process, and is called an idiot.  Sure seems like Elvis has become the true face of BFC finally.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Ubercat on August 14, 2018, 07:13:55 AM
I need to stay out of this thread. RyanE is echoing my own experiences and it's pointless for me to get mad again.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on August 14, 2018, 07:53:58 AM
And that is my main concern for BFC as a business.  Most people go through 10% of what I did and give up.  I tend stick to games I like and will push through.  But I don't do it quietly.  I am a big believer in continuous improvement through critical customer feedback.  It tends to not be appreciated in small indie companies.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on August 14, 2018, 08:01:53 AM
And on top of that, the customer spends another $90-$100 just to overcome the issues with the registration process, and is called an idiot.  Sure seems like Elvis has become the true face of BFC finally.

BFC's problem all along is that it has no face (nor has it seemed to desire one). Charles stays far behind the scenes, and Steve has been likened to Derek Smart, though at least he confines his abuse of the fan base to his own website. When Matt Faller was there, he changed his sig line to "Battlefront.com, your best friend, your worst enemy" which I thought said a lot. I always thought Dan Olding and Schrullenhaft were very pleasant and professional and more, perhaps, could have been done to promote their interactions with the fans but of course that wasn't their role (the former was an artist and the latter a tech support wizard).

As for Elvis, I've interacted with him in his role as tech support and found his comments above not mere boasting. I believe I paid for the Mac version of Red Sea, over Christmas, and he quickly swapped it out for the Windows version. No fuss, no muss, and I was delighted to receive prompt and courteous service, especially since my problems were self-inflicted, caused by not reading what I was ordering. I've not had activation problems that needed extensive support so can't comment on that. But Elvis also made a name for himself on some of the fan sites as kind of a beta-evangelist. He does like to troll. I'd say you're best to confine your interactions with him to the professional sphere - you won't out-argue him on a third party site like this. He'll simply outlast you, and as you've witnessed, eventually resort to insults and other unsavoury behavior - you've witnessed his ability to dodge direct questions that don't suit him. I don't buy the conspiracy theory that BFC simply breeds this behavior, I always thought it came to Elvis naturally. :-) Moreover, he's good at it, so proceed at your own peril.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on August 14, 2018, 08:35:23 AM
And, in fairness, the DRM has gotten a lot more stable.  On my first install of CMSF, I could plug in a USB drive and trigger a lost activation.  Now, its just HD failures, large OS updates, and new PCs.

As I said, BFC responds within a day or two, even on weekends.  But it usually leads to entering a ticket on the BFC site, waiting a day or two, getting a reset.  Trying to enter the next module and finding its shot too, etc.  When you are entering 12-15 games and modules, it does lead to a lot of back and forth to get it sorted.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on August 14, 2018, 08:37:16 AM
I was trying to see if the patch was coming out with CMSF2.  Does anyone know?  I couldn't sort through it all on the BFC site.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Pete Dero on August 14, 2018, 08:42:23 AM
I was trying to see if the patch was coming out with CMSF2.  Does anyone know?  I couldn't sort through it all on the BFC site.

If I understood correctly there is no patch.  You upgrade to CMSF2 (and keep CMSF1 as a separate install).
So if the site offers the upgrade option at the same time they start selling CMSF2 you would have the new game from the start.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: WallysWorld on August 14, 2018, 08:47:56 AM
I was trying to see if the patch was coming out with CMSF2.  Does anyone know?  I couldn't sort through it all on the BFC site.
If I understood correctly there is no patch.  You upgrade to CMSF2 (and keep CMSF1 as a separate install).
So if the site offers the upgrade option at the same time they start selling CMSF2 you would have the new game from the start.

I think RyanE meant the CMx2 patch that Steve posted was coming out right after the release of CMSF2. I am waiting for that patch too.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on August 14, 2018, 10:09:19 AM
I was trying to see if the patch was coming out with CMSF2.  Does anyone know?  I couldn't sort through it all on the BFC site.
If I understood correctly there is no patch.  You upgrade to CMSF2 (and keep CMSF1 as a separate install).
So if the site offers the upgrade option at the same time they start selling CMSF2 you would have the new game from the start.

I think RyanE meant the CMx2 patch that Steve posted was coming out right after the release of CMSF2. I am waiting for that patch too.

Correct.  Sorry for being ambiguous.  I set aside CM2 a few months ago thinking the patch might be out soon.  But didn't see any news about it.  Official news, because I can't tell what is official anymore.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zonso on August 14, 2018, 10:32:48 AM
^RyanE somehow always seems to be the most extreme case in just about every scenario. He loses dongles in luggage on international flights. He buys and upgrades a dozen computers each year causing him to spend ď100 hoursĒ re-registering CM products. He sets an extremely high bar for any company to reach, especially when it comes to companies that just make niche games. He is the consummate unhappy nightmare customer and the scorn of game developers and publishers alike. Iíve seen them spend an inordinate amount of time in what frequently becomes a near endless cycle of debate and argument. However, he keeps some of these guys on their toes and has definitely been a harbinger of change.

Yesx2, having had my own business the majority of my working career I had a fair sampling of clients and customers. Most were of the reasonable and realistic variety, but some were as the extreme described above. Intially when young and eager and sincere(naive) I would make every effort to make these customers happy. However, I became aware, and as my wife liked to constantly remind me, this small percentage of customers(< 3%) were likely causing over 75% of my stress. The answer was to cut them loose and move on, then even better, later on to recognize them from the get-go and not take them on. Bad feelings, unhappy and unsatisfied customer? Yep, but business did not suffer from this handful, in fact probably flourished more because time and energy could be better focused on the customer who were the true bread and butter. I know that goes against the 'customer is always right' motto but it was a life lesson learned otherwise and I slept better for it. :)

August, September, October release date? <shrugs> Lots of things to do in the meantime.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 18, 2018, 09:45:57 PM
So if i have the Paradox version minus the retail patch but have all the modules, i have to buy the main game again?

Why not base the discount on modules, as surely it must be assumed that if you have the any of the modules you have the main game (which takes out the uncertainty of not knowing the Paradox keys).

A trust thing if you like. .

This way everyone gets treated fairly.

I thought I had to buy the 'retail' patch in order to get modules?

Nope - I've all modules running and never bought the retail patch.

Through some research and back and forth emails, you are correct. If a someone owns the Paradox base game and owns the Marine or Brit module then their version was converted to the BFC version when they got one of those modules. The same is not true if they just purchased the NATO module but there should be no one that was able to play the NATO module without the patch or at least one of the other modules. Simply put, it's moot because it won't run without any of those things then there is nobody with just that configuration.  If someone has just the base Paradox version with none of the things that I've mentioned then there is nothing that can be done for the reasons I've mentioned before.

The other nonsense I'll reply to tomorrow when I finally get home from the hospital visits.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Destraex on August 18, 2018, 11:45:10 PM
^RyanE somehow always seems to be the most extreme case in just about every scenario. He loses dongles in luggage on international flights. He buys and upgrades a dozen computers each year causing him to spend ď100 hoursĒ re-registering CM products. He sets an extremely high bar for any company to reach, especially when it comes to companies that just make niche games. He is the consummate unhappy nightmare customer and the scorn of game developers and publishers alike. Iíve seen them spend an inordinate amount of time in what frequently becomes a near endless cycle of debate and argument. However, he keeps some of these guys on their toes and has definitely been a harbinger of change.

Yesx2, having had my own business the majority of my working career I had a fair sampling of clients and customers. Most were of the reasonable and realistic variety, but some were as the extreme described above. Intially when young and eager and sincere(naive) I would make every effort to make these customers happy. However, I became aware, and as my wife liked to constantly remind me, this small percentage of customers(< 3%) were likely causing over 75% of my stress. The answer was to cut them loose and move on, then even better, later on to recognize them from the get-go and not take them on. Bad feelings, unhappy and unsatisfied customer? Yep, but business did not suffer from this handful, in fact probably flourished more because time and energy could be better focused on the customer who were the true bread and butter. I know that goes against the 'customer is always right' motto but it was a life lesson learned otherwise and I slept better for it. :)

August, September, October release date? <shrugs> Lots of things to do in the meantime.

You are unfortunately right. However in the age of the internet even one person can do a lot of damage. They have the time and will, you do not. Their is of course still a method to dealing with them. Which is not to say you just smack them about with a 4b2 and tell them to stop. You have to defuse them and let them have time to think about things without inciting them to lunacy.
There is of course the other consideration that you may in fact be wrong. When that percentage is larger than you think. Recognising the difference between a few loonies and a commonly held customer view is paramount. It is very easy to consider anybody without your viewpoint to be one of your "rare" loonies. The whole thing requires a light touch with a firm set of boundaries.

If your company is big enough to absorb the losses, you of course just tell the staff to adhere to the "customer is always right" philosophy. Which does breed the entitled broods of customers and people we currently have in society.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on August 19, 2018, 04:58:13 AM
All I can say is even BFCers admitted the DRM up to a few years ago did not handle anything out of the ordinary very well.  It is documented in the forums at BFC that upgrading OS, plugging in USBs, plugging in headphones, adding RAM, adding an SSD can trigger a lost activation.  That is 8-9 years of dealing with it for customers.

By itself, not a huge deal.  But when you have no clue how many activations you have and how long to get stuff reset, it starts to get into frustration territory.  It has been much better lately, but the die is cast as those previous activations are lost.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Yskonyn on August 19, 2018, 05:12:17 AM
All I can say is even BFCers admitted the DRM up to a few years ago did not handle anything out of the ordinary very well.  It is documented in the forums at BFC that upgrading OS, plugging in USBs, plugging in headphones, adding RAM, adding an SSD can trigger a lost activation.  That is 8-9 years of dealing with it for customers.

Highlights are mine. I highly doubt these can cause issues and are documented as such. Of course the SSD can cause issues if you install the game on a new SSD, but just plugging in a new one is very unlikely to cause issues.

I have upgraded SSD count, swapped videocards and plugged in more RAM with my CM games installed and I've never run into DRM issues because of it.
Only when reinstalling the games I had issues once with a license.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 19, 2018, 06:43:27 AM
A big misconception is being repeated by RyanE. What he is referring to is when you need to use a "tool" to reset the license state of the game when there has been a major change with a computer.....using the tool [does not/i] luse/burn an activation.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on August 19, 2018, 06:44:14 AM
I had a usb trigger an activation on CMBN.  There was a forum post in the early CMBN days of a usb headsey triggering an activation.  I had a RAM upgrade trigger an activation.  In all of these Steve admitted that the licensing system was overly sensitive.  New video cards also had triggered activations as well.  Steve explained it at the time that the licensing system took a snap shot of the systems config.  Any significant changes would trigger an activation.  Adding a piece of hardware in certain ways would trigger off the system.  For 5-6 years they were tweaking the DRM for all the potential licensing issues.  Only in the last couple of years has it seemed to have stabilized.  Bu, as I said, those were activations that were gone, never to return.

Again, just go through the forums around 2010 and see all the issues people had.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on August 19, 2018, 06:48:37 AM
That is not what I was told.  I was told that if I had to use the tool, which I have had to use 6-8 times because the license was stuck somewhere, I had to get a new activation because all of mine were used up.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 19, 2018, 12:37:39 PM
That is not what I was told.  I was told that if I had to use the tool, which I have had to use 6-8 times because the license was stuck somewhere, I had to get a new activation because all of mine were used up.

It hasn't for as long as I've been on Da Desk. Maybe it was before and it changed. Looking at my original template for using the tool on a Mac it says that it does but, again, it hasn't for since I've been on board. I even tested it today with my CMBN installation. Checked how many activations my key had used, ran the tool and re-activated, check the number of used activations and it hadn't changed. Maybe the first incarnation of the tool did but that would have been a while ago.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: dinsdale on August 19, 2018, 06:40:21 PM
All it took was 10 seconds on google to verify that Ryan isn't making it up, or some type of customer that just likes to complain.

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/108890-cmfigustav-drmlicense-questions/

Writing DRM is difficult, specialized and requires picking a method which provides enough protection while minimizing the number of honest customers who are inconvenienced. It would be more surprising if Battlefront didn't have issues as they seem to be rolling their own system.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: stolypin on August 20, 2018, 06:10:18 AM
My issue with Battlefront is the lack of regular patching.  Since about February, all of the CM titles crash on me at some point in a scenario (usually after I have been playing for a while).  I assume a new nVidia driver or Windows 10 change has adversely affected the game but unlike Graviteam or Matrix -- both of which are quick to release patches / updates in response to reported problems -- Battlefront remains silent (though others have reported having the same problem). 

While I know Graviteam offers a more up-to-date, shinier product, I've stuck with CM because of the familiarity and ease of play.  But these unfixed crashes are pushing me toward finally biting the bullet and making the switch. And they are also souring me on the idea of purchasing CMSF2. 
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 20, 2018, 07:53:50 AM
My issue with Battlefront is the lack of regular patching.  Since about February, all of the CM titles crash on me at some point in a scenario (usually after I have been playing for a while).  I assume a new nVidia driver or Windows 10 change has adversely affected the game but unlike Graviteam or Matrix -- both of which are quick to release patches / updates in response to reported problems -- Battlefront remains silent (though others have reported having the same problem). 

While I know Graviteam offers a more up-to-date, shinier product, I've stuck with CM because of the familiarity and ease of play.  But these unfixed crashes are pushing me toward finally biting the bullet and making the switch. And they are also souring me on the idea of purchasing CMSF2.

You can open a ticket on the Help Desk if you'd like but I believe you are correct about the driver. Try rolling back your driver to one that was released in December. That should do the trick.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on August 20, 2018, 08:05:41 AM

Try rolling back your driver to one that was released in December. That should do the trick.

Ouch. That should go over about as well as a heart attack. Good luck with that one.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: stolypin on August 20, 2018, 08:52:29 AM

Try rolling back your driver to one that was released in December. That should do the trick.

Ouch. That should go over about as well as a heart attack. Good luck with that one.

Yeah, I've seen that suggestion by users on the CM forums (and the games seemed to be fine in December) but I'm not thrilled with "rolling back" drivers to something 9 months old (nor am I sure how to do it).  I get that Battlefront can't be expected to respond to every change by nVidia or Microsoft the second they occur but after 9 months, I would expect Battlefront to issue a patch. 
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on August 20, 2018, 09:06:54 AM

Try rolling back your driver to one that was released in December. That should do the trick.

Ouch. That should go over about as well as a heart attack. Good luck with that one.

Yeah, I've seen that suggestion by users on the CM forums (and the games seemed to be fine in December) but I'm not thrilled with "rolling back" drivers to something 9 months old (nor am I sure how to do it).  I get that Battlefront can't be expected to respond to every change by nVidia or Microsoft the second they occur but after 9 months, I would expect Battlefront to issue a patch.

I think expecting the customer to roll back progress to the possible detriment of everything else is an unreasonable solution unless very temporary. Its almost as bad as telling your customer to turn off your AV software in order to get their game running. No thanks. 
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Philippe on August 20, 2018, 09:20:56 AM
I played and loved the early Combat Mission games.  Every time I start wondering if I might consider taking the plunge and buying some of the new ones, I read something like this and look for other sources of frustration.

I'm surprised Battlefront stays in business with this kind of thing going on.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 20, 2018, 02:52:04 PM

I think expecting the customer to roll back progress to the possible detriment of everything else is an unreasonable solution unless very temporary. Its almost as bad as telling your customer to turn off your AV software in order to get their game running. No thanks.

Not only is it reasonable but it is fairly common. Google somefink like "nVidia updated their drivers and now my game won't work".  You will see all manner of games that had/have issues because of updated video drivers. Pretty much all games can have this type of issue from time to time. The onus is on the 3rd party software, whether it's nVidia or a sound card driver or Radeon or anything else that is third party. Otherwise software producers (large and small) would spend unnecessary time chasing down issue with each driver release for every possible 3rd party producer. Here's an example of a Radeon driver and a big game, Dragon Age: https://community.amd.com/thread/215905

That is what is unreasonable. Expecting software companies to devote time coming up with patches to fix problems caused by 3rd party producers. It makes my head spin thinking about what would be involved to monitor the effects of any changes to the massive amount of possibilities. On top of that, it is some weird unknown combination. I have the same driver for the card on my laptop as the people who have experienced the issue and mine works fine. So, what causes it to be fine on one computer and not on another? Who knows. How it interacts with the processor? Maybe. How it interacts with the specific RAM on someones system? Maybe. How it interacts with any component on someone's system? Maybe. Certainly not something that Battlefront (or any other gaming company) should be working on a patch to fix. The next driver that they release may cause someone else to have a problem.

Fortunately, these are not that common. And frankly, it's a miracle that a workaround was found. A crash like that could take months of banging your head against the wall trying to diagnose before it was discovered.

Ditto AV software. I've probably mentioned on these forums before that I stopped using them a long time ago. They have gotten so lazy that they aren't worth the effort. As long as you have a basic sense of what might be dangerous to click on or install something from a site that you don't trust it is hard to have a problem. And they change what they determine to be a threat even more frequently than driver producers.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on August 20, 2018, 03:19:15 PM
I really should stay out of this thread.....not sure why I even consider supporting this company and its games.  For the first time, I can honestly say it is no longer a lock to purchase any more of their products.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: stolypin on August 20, 2018, 03:40:02 PM

I think expecting the customer to roll back progress to the possible detriment of everything else is an unreasonable solution unless very temporary. Its almost as bad as telling your customer to turn off your AV software in order to get their game running. No thanks.

Not only is it reasonable but it is fairly common. Google somefink like "nVidia updated their drivers and now my game won't work".  You will see all manner of games that had/have issues because of updated video drivers. Pretty much all games can have this type of issue from time to time. The onus is on the 3rd party software, whether it's nVidia or a sound card driver or Radeon or anything else that is third party. Otherwise software producers (large and small) would spend unnecessary time chasing down issue with each driver release for every possible 3rd party producer. Here's an example of a Radeon driver and a big game, Dragon Age: https://community.amd.com/thread/215905

That is what is unreasonable. Expecting software companies to devote time coming up with patches to fix problems caused by 3rd party producers. It makes my head spin thinking about what would be involved to monitor the effects of any changes to the massive amount of possibilities. On top of that, it is some weird unknown combination. I have the same driver for the card on my laptop as the people who have experienced the issue and mine works fine. So, what causes it to be fine on one computer and not on another? Who knows. How it interacts with the processor? Maybe. How it interacts with the specific RAM on someones system? Maybe. How it interacts with any component on someone's system? Maybe. Certainly not something that Battlefront (or any other gaming company) should be working on a patch to fix. The next driver that they release may cause someone else to have a problem.

Fortunately, these are not that common. And frankly, it's a miracle that a workaround was found. A crash like that could take months of banging your head against the wall trying to diagnose before it was discovered.

Ditto AV software. I've probably mentioned on these forums before that I stopped using them a long time ago. They have gotten so lazy that they aren't worth the effort. As long as you have a basic sense of what might be dangerous to click on or install something from a site that you don't trust it is hard to have a problem. And they change what they determine to be a threat even more frequently than driver producers.

I hear you and as I said in a previous post, I don't expect Battlefront to address every single issue every time nVidia or Microsoft makes a change.  But, at the same time, the CM titles rely upon "3rd party producers" to run and Battlefront cannot (or, at least, should not) bury their heads in the sand when changes affect their games.  Other games I play like Command: Modern Air & Naval Operations, Grigsby's WITE/WITW, and Graviteam Tactics frequently update their products to address issues.  Battlefront does not. 
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on August 20, 2018, 05:20:47 PM
I gotta say, as far as the AV issue goes, I have never had an AV issue with any other game.  That includes Matrix, Steam, and Graviteam (independent from Steam).  With any CM game, I have to specifically white list all BFC directories.  It becomes a pain on reinstalls.  I can't count the number of times I have missed a directory and spent an hour or so tracking down the exe file and figuring it out.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: dinsdale on August 20, 2018, 05:43:34 PM
I played and loved the early Combat Mission games.  Every time I start wondering if I might consider taking the plunge and buying some of the new ones, I read something like this and look for other sources of frustration.

Everyone's milage varies, but if you are not an edge case you will probably never notice an issue with the DRM. If you do, their tech support responds well and can sort it out. I haven't had any driver issues, but I haven't upgraded in a while, so I haven't experienced any issues.

However, the games are sublime. I've always waited for a patch or two before buying, and by that time they are terrific.

Many other games share either a hostile community, passive aggressive staff or staff who are just their own company's worst enemy, Battlefront is a rare case of having all three, but if you stay away from the site, ignore their nonsense and aren't in a hurry for new games, the games are worth it. I understand why people give up, but don't let the collective poor experience influence you.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on August 20, 2018, 06:04:50 PM

Many other games share either a hostile community, passive aggressive staff or staff who are just their own company's worst enemy, Battlefront is a rare case of having all three, but if you stay away from the site, ignore their nonsense and aren't in a hurry for new games, the games are worth it. I understand why people give up, but don't let the collective poor experience influence you.

That's a lot to overlook :)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: WargamerJoe on August 21, 2018, 02:15:55 AM
Quote
I understand why people give up, but don't let the collective poor experience influence you.

I mean... that sounds exactly like what you should let influence you. If you're unhappy with an experience, you don't buy into it.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Queeg on August 21, 2018, 04:03:13 AM
I enjoy their games immensely, so I just play them and ignore the rest.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: markh on August 21, 2018, 04:43:17 AM
I played and loved the early Combat Mission games.  Every time I start wondering if I might consider taking the plunge and buying some of the new ones, I read something like this and look for other sources of frustration.

I'm surprised Battlefront stays in business with this kind of thing going on.

I am interested in the heat and passion that seems to accompany Combat Mission threads so I thought I would add my 20 cents worth.  Philippe, the answer to your comment is that typically a company stays in business for +18 years because essentially the number of satisfied customers who continue to support the company's products makes the business model viable.  Sure there are dissatisfied customers - and passionately dissatisfied ones by the look of things.  Reading the postings, I would be unhappy if the things being quoted here were happening to me - they do not happen to me, and apparently not to the majority of the CM client base which means that there appears to be a sufficiently loyal repeat customer base.  The reality is that I have every game produced by CM - i.e. CMx1 and CMx2 games.  I love them - have not experienced any of the issues being reported in this thread, and would thoroughly recommend them to anyone.  If you have not tried any CMx2 games - I recommend that you try at least one and then you decide for yourself.

I have Graviteam products, ARMA 2 and 3, Steel Beasts Pro PE 4, VBS 2 and 3 and enjoy all of them.  Having said that, CMx2 has some unique features that means that despite the variety of my wargame sources, CMx2 games continue to be on my menu years after they have been acquired.  There would not be a fortnight that goes by (when I am not away from home on business) in which I do not play at least 1 CMx2 game.

I do not seek to minimise or detract from any genuine complaints that some of the posters have referred to on this thread - my sympathies to them.  However, I thought I would provide some balance to the discussion as an extremely satisfied CM customer that has experienced none of these problems.  I would be disappointed if adverse publicity in this thread caused prospective new customers to not try the product or cause an adverse impact on the viability of future products from that stable.  I say this because many of the products I have acquired (and now love) have come about because I took a risk based on some positive reviews on this website, despite seeing adverse comments about the same products/ or the management of the companies making the products (e.g. criticisms of "dongles" notwithstanding).

For the record, I am an arms' length customer with no association, relationship or interest in CM.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Boggit on August 21, 2018, 06:02:55 AM
I enjoy their games immensely, so I just play them and ignore the rest.
Maybe I'm lucky. I find the odd glitch but I'm a fanboy of the series and they don't really bother me. When I have had a problem I've contacted Elvis who usually has an answer within 24 hours. On my personal experience I can't fault him. For the size of the company, I think they do pretty well considering.

My $0.02, and feel free to disagree if you wish.

I've been here before and my opinion hasn't changed. Do I like the DRM? No, not at all, but I haven't had many problems and if I do I'll email Elvis who fixes things pretty quick so I don't stress out about it.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Cyrano on August 21, 2018, 09:10:34 AM
I think people would be better about all this if there was a credible alternative to CM, but, for those of us who don't play single-player games, there isn't.

The niche BF feeds is a passionate and hungry one.

And, as I've said before, I've not had problem one with the DRM.  Would I prefer it on Steam?  Who wouldn't.

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Yskonyn on August 21, 2018, 02:04:36 PM
Re: driver suggestion.
I disagree with Elvis that its reasonable and common to refer back to 9 month old drivers. I would immediately drop any game that required me to do so.
I do find it reasonable to refer back to the previous version or perhaps the version before that IF the issue was well known in the driver set itself and causes problems with more games.

That said, Iíll echo Boggit with my experience with CM, its DRM and its customer service.
Overall happy camper here and I own all CM titles save for CMFI.
I play the Cmx2 series of game very regularly still.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 21, 2018, 03:54:52 PM
I'm not going to beat this driver conversation like a dead horse. But to explain what I have seen. Not everyone with this particular driver experienced it. If that were the case and it was a more permanent set up with nVidia then sure, you'd have to look at changing something within the game. But this seemingly random combination that affected a very few (I would guess at least half of the players here have nVidia cards and many have or had the February driver and didn't miss a beat). I was fortunate to have found a quick and easy fix for anyone who did contact me and had it. If it had been a more widespread issue I would have dug into it more deeply and now that I am typing this I wish that I had. My standard first suggestion to folks with crashes over the years is to ask them to update their drivers. I should have done this in the case of the parson who posted here because looking at the GeForce driver page there have been 7 new drivers since the problematic February release. Seven.....in 6 months.....

So, I'll change my initial reply to stolypin should have been:

Try updating your video card drivers. If it doesn't help open up a ticket on the Help Desk.

(Lesson, once again, learned)

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on August 21, 2018, 04:05:30 PM
And that's seven drivers in six months that I have had no issue with in any other game.  CM is the only game I have ever had to downgrade my driver for.  Beating a dead horse again that BFC is becoming very narrowly limited with the systems it can play on out of the box.

Graviteam, Stealbeasts, ARMA2/3, X-Plane (OpenGL), IL2: BOS, Command, and a number of smaller titles on Steam and with Matrix.  Not a single one have I ever had to retro any drivers, regularly contact support, turn off my AV, or whitelist a directory, or have to limit the game to one CPU core. 

Are all of them perfect, no, they aren't.  But since Graviteam gave up its bizzare patching, and discounting SB's stupid dongle policy, BFC comes out on top for the most effort to reinstall.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Bletchley_Geek on August 21, 2018, 07:04:14 PM
Breaking a long radio silence just to say that CM2 has been for me a vehicle to gain insight into WW2 tactics and how that fitted within the greater operational and strategic picture. This even with all the very well documented shortcomings of the engine.

Same thing with GT, as they have matured, their games give other type of insight or a different viewpoint. They also have still several limitations even if they have improved up to a point that I split my attention 50-50 between CM2 and GT.

In terms of gameplay though, nothing beats CM2 head to head, on a George MC map, commanding a well thought out force and pursuing sensible tasks to accomplish.

Modern period games kind of suck. Matchups are ridiculous uneven, playing red vs red is writing off like three quarters of the content of the game... I find them good to study hypothetical scenarios in modern warfare. But I am not interested in that personally.

Arguing with BFC is an exercise in futility - you can make a difference reporting bugs which may get fixed eventually... and that's it. If you expect devs to allow you steer the shopping trolley you're going to be disappointed.

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: dinsdale on August 21, 2018, 07:55:18 PM
Quote
I understand why people give up, but don't let the collective poor experience influence you.

I mean... that sounds exactly like what you should let influence you. If you're unhappy with an experience, you don't buy into it.

But if that was the case, no one would buy anything. If you look at any product on amazon and only look at the negative reviews, even the most perfect item will have customers with a bad experience. CM may not be perfect, but I don't see their communication and forums to be something that bothers me. I understand those who do, but for new players thinking about getting the game - the likelihood of either Steve or the DRM being a gamebreaking issue is low.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: WargamerJoe on August 22, 2018, 04:18:18 AM
Quote
I understand why people give up, but don't let the collective poor experience influence you.

I mean... that sounds exactly like what you should let influence you. If you're unhappy with an experience, you don't buy into it.

But if that was the case, no one would buy anything. If you look at any product on amazon and only look at the negative reviews, even the most perfect item will have customers with a bad experience. CM may not be perfect, but I don't see their communication and forums to be something that bothers me. I understand those who do, but for new players thinking about getting the game - the likelihood of either Steve or the DRM being a gamebreaking issue is low.

You say that like it's a bad thing - the world would probably be a better place if more of us did have a little less tolerance for things like this and spent a little bit less. But I was more referring to people who've bought-in once already and are dissatisfied - just don't buy in again.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: z1812 on August 22, 2018, 03:32:26 PM

I find myself agreeing with some of what has been said..................however I find it to be such an excellent game that I am willing to put up with the odd issue in order to play it.

I think it is about 18 years that I have been playing CM and 51 years altogether I have been wargamimg. I have not found any other modern era wargames with such fidelity in regards to tactics. The other thing that I quite like is it's flexibility in game play. RT, PBEM, WEGO or SP, MP, HS. All in one game. Not to mention the editor.

I know it is not every ones cup of tea but it is certainly mine.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: stolypin on August 23, 2018, 06:38:46 AM

I find myself agreeing with some of what has been said..................however I find it to be such an excellent game that I am willing to put up with the odd issue in order to play it.

I think it is about 18 years that I have been playing CM and 51 years altogether I have been wargamimg. I have not found any other modern era wargames with such fidelity in regards to tactics. The other thing that I quite like is it's flexibility in game play. RT, PBEM, WEGO or SP, MP, HS. All in one game. Not to mention the editor.

I know it is not every ones cup of tea but it is certainly mine.

I want to be clear since I'm the one who brought up the issues of crashes that I too love the CM games.  I have NOT made the switch to the Graviteam series because, for me, the CM interface is so easy and familiar that I can totally focus on tactics without struggling to figure out the mechanics of the game. 

And the DRM issue has (so far) not been a problem for me.

It's the lack of regular patching that irks me.  Perhaps I've been spoiled by my other favorite game, Command: Modern Air and Naval Operations which seems to release a patch/new version almost every month. 
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on August 23, 2018, 07:04:44 AM
The trend for the last few years for a lot of SW companies is faster, smaller, and more frequent updates.  It is kind of disappointing the lack of patches.  But at the same time, CM2 hasn't had any real game killing issues, just a few annoying ones that have put me off a little.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on September 25, 2018, 02:06:58 PM
Its that time of year for the natives to start getting restless and the devs to not care.

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/133207-they-meant-september-of-next-year/

While I have no issue with BFC not making promises and missing mentioned deadlines, a few good points in that thread about the patch, people who pre-ordered with no transparency to delivery, and general lack of communications.

In other words, same old and same old.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on September 25, 2018, 02:31:18 PM
Really no surprise....did anyone actually think they would make their date?  Did anyone think they would actually spend a total of 1 minute creating a post to inform people of status (whether not going to make it or make it)?

Still (5) days left in September so who knows what happens, although they did indicate the demo would be released "soon" after their last message that the game would be ready by end of September....and that didn't happen.

Such a shame....
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: stolypin on September 25, 2018, 02:39:24 PM
Its that time of year for the natives to start getting restless and the devs to not care.

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/133207-they-meant-september-of-next-year/

While I have no issue with BFC not making promises and missing mentioned deadlines, a few good points in that thread about the patch, people who pre-ordered with no transparency to delivery, and general lack of communications.

In other words, same old and same old.

Did Battlefront actually make an official announcement that September 2018 wasn't happening?   I would certainly not be surprised if they missed that timeframe but all I saw in the cited thread was someone claiming that they really meant September 2019. 
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on September 25, 2018, 02:41:42 PM
Its that time of year for the natives to start getting restless and the devs to not care.

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/133207-they-meant-september-of-next-year/

While I have no issue with BFC not making promises and missing mentioned deadlines, a few good points in that thread about the patch, people who pre-ordered with no transparency to delivery, and general lack of communications.

In other words, same old and same old.

Did Battlefront actually make an official announcement that September 2018 wasn't happening?   I would certainly not be surprised if they missed that timeframe but all I saw in the cited thread was someone claiming that they really meant September 2019.

No, they have announced nothing....but they did indicate the demo was supposed to be released well ahead of the actual product release and that would seem unlikely with onlu a few days left in September.  Problem is not whether they actually make the date or not, its their continued stance not actually informing their customers one way or another.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on September 30, 2018, 04:37:13 PM
Really no surprise....did anyone actually think they would make their date?  Did anyone think they would actually spend a total of 1 minute creating a post to inform people of status (whether not going to make it or make it)?

Still (5) days left in September so who knows what happens, although they did indicate the demo would be released "soon" after their last message that the game would be ready by end of September....and that didn't happen.

Such a shame....

I wonder if it's time to more seriously revisit the conspiracy theory that Steve and/or Charles have taken up paying day jobs and are working on CM in their spare time...

Their paid staff have been reduced (I don't follow that closely but is it correct that their PR guy is gone, their second coder is gone, and their IT help desk guys are unpaid volunteers?), while their output lately has been slow and of minimal significance to the overall development of the series. Game Engine 4.0 was nearly two years ago. CMSF2 is - again, correct me if I'm wrong - the final piece of upgrading all the original CMX2 titles to Game Engine 4.0 status. Yes, a big deal for the CMSF fans but really doesn't move the series as a whole forward, just finishes off a missing piece of the status quo.  There was a battle pack for Black Sea in 2017 as well, though that was a couple of campaigns, some scenarios and a couple dozen quick battle maps, all of which could have been done by any volunteer. (With a minimal bit of effort they could probably have done packs like this for all their titles in the last couple of years.)

Not to revisit the "BFC is dead" chatter, as I suppose they could go on indefinitely on life support if it is simply hobby time for them. The "About Us" page was last updated - two years ago. And no more staff biographies.

Ah well. They still have five and a half hours left in Maine to make good on the statement that something would be out in September. Given how often they let these dates slip, I don't think anyone can seriously suggest there would be any repercussions for missing this one, as it's pretty much expected now, and there is no real backlash from the community.

I understand Lock'N'Load is putting out another computerized version of their LnL Tactical boardgame. I enjoyed Heroes of Stalingrad on the PC, both solo and head to head. Played a face to face game at my kitchen table today of Heroes of Normandy. I have a feeling LnL may be getting more of my money in future than BFC, but you never know when BFC will hit you with some big surprise announcement, either. Hey, maybe they're working on a decent campaign layer with persistent unit and map damage... Probably not, but speaking for myself the next upgrade would have to be something spectacular to attract me to it.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Ubercat on September 30, 2018, 04:48:21 PM
I understand Lock'N'Load is putting out another computerized version of their LnL Tactical boardgame. I enjoyed Heroes of Stalingrad on the PC, both solo and head to head. Played a face to face game at my kitchen table today of Heroes of Normandy. I have a feeling LnL may be getting more of my money in future than BFC, but you never know when BFC will hit you with some big surprise announcement, either. Hey, maybe they're working on a decent campaign layer with persistent unit and map damage... Probably not, but speaking for myself the next upgrade would have to be something spectacular to attract me to it.

Were you at WBC 2018 last July? I thought I heard that you were there in 2017 (unless I'm confusing with someone else) LnL were there and I got to spend a few minutes playing an early build of the PC game. It looks much better than HoS.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on September 30, 2018, 04:57:43 PM
Usually, BFC let's this fester for a month or so and springs a release on us.  Then we forget until the next time.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on September 30, 2018, 05:03:58 PM
But on the topic of BFC's longevity, I kind of agree.  Since Chris (marketing) and the Phil (2nd programmer) left, everything, including releases, patches, website changes, communications, etc. has come to a near halt. Releases and changes all seem to half-assed and troubled.

I think it might be the new reality.  As I have said before, I play very little CM now.  I go back and play every now and then, but it bores me pretty quickly.  CMSF was always my favorite because of the number of countries in it, so I am intrigued by CMSF2.  By big waits are CMBS and CMRT modules.  Until then, my regular play is Steel Beasts and Command.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on September 30, 2018, 05:18:12 PM
Were you at WBC 2018 last July? I thought I heard that you were there in 2017 (unless I'm confusing with someone else) LnL were there and I got to spend a few minutes playing an early build of the PC game. It looks much better than HoS.

No I wasn't there, but I did mention the PC game on this forum before and I think I remember you mentioning it before, so maybe that's what you're remembering? Anyway, cool that you got to see an early build. I'm looking forward to it.

Also sat down today for a face to face trial of Nations at War (platoon level), and apparently they are doing a PC version of that, as well. The boardgame version was fun, a bit different from LnL Tactical, obviously, but kind of a treat not to have to dig through a 200 page manual in order to play. The dice rolling reminded me of Axis and Allies, especially during the overruns...
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on October 03, 2018, 05:44:52 PM

and their IT help desk guys are unpaid volunteers?),

I definitely get paid. Heck, I even got a good sized raise in around the beginning of the year.

Quote
I wonder if it's time to more seriously revisit the conspiracy theory that Steve and/or Charles have taken up paying day jobs and are working on CM in their spare time...

While it is true that I do not spend 24/7 communicating with these guys, if they are doing CM in their spare time then they are spending an enormous amount of time slacking off at those other jobs.  ;)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Skoop on October 03, 2018, 06:25:33 PM

and their IT help desk guys are unpaid volunteers?),

I definitely get paid. Heck, I even got a good sized raise in around the beginning of the year.

Quote
I wonder if it's time to more seriously revisit the conspiracy theory that Steve and/or Charles have taken up paying day jobs and are working on CM in their spare time...

While it is true that I do not spend 24/7 communicating with these guys, if they are doing CM in their spare time then they are spending an enormous amount of time slacking off at those other jobs.  ;)

That last bit is more alarming to me than had you disclosed they were working day jobs.  That means that inspite of their 24/7 efforts battlefront is still a train wreck in content production.  Which further supports my sitzkrieg business model theory they have devolved to.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Moreb on October 03, 2018, 08:16:10 PM
Quote

That last bit is more alarming to me than had you disclosed they were working day jobs.  That means that inspite of their 24/7 efforts battlefront is still a train wreck in content production.  Which further supports my sitzkrieg business model theory they have devolved to.

Im not a CM player (graviteam all the way) but how did you come to this conclusion by what Elvis posted? He said he's not in contact 24/7.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on October 04, 2018, 08:10:00 AM

Quote
I definitely get paid. Heck, I even got a good sized raise in around the beginning of the year.

Three free mousepads instead of two? Sounds lucrative.

Quote
Im not a CM player (graviteam all the way) but how did you come to this conclusion by what Elvis posted? He said he's not in contact 24/7.

You'd have to be familiar with that community to get the nuances here. Most wargaming projects seem to be done at long distance, via email, forum, Slack, etc. and the two founders of BFC have enjoyed fostering their outsiders reputation (aided by not sharing a lot of photos on social media, to the point one presents himself as a hermit in the woods, the other as nothing but a brain in a jar). It seems odd, then, to vouch for the time management habits of reclusive people one has never met.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on October 04, 2018, 10:22:10 AM

 It seems odd, then, to vouch for the time management habits of reclusive people one has never met.

Says who?  ;)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Moreb on October 04, 2018, 09:14:35 PM
Quote
one presents himself as a hermit in the woods, the other as nothing but a brain in a jar


Lol. That's actually very funny.

No, I do not know that community. I did many years ago when Battlefront Software was a fledgling company with an unproven idea and then an Alpha Demo. Heck, I even ran the first tournament of CMBO, The Not-so-Superbowl for awful players such as myself. I think it was Stuka that won the first one. That community was small, informed, and fun. Fast forward many years to the time SF was being developed. I revisited after a long hiatus to find the same group of members dismayed at the direction Battlefront was taking and worried that the most revered aspects of the series were being abandoned for their new vision, one possibly less hardcore and what they saw at the time as more mainstream.  At that point the community was a victim of its own success and one I did not recognize. Most of the things Battlefront fought against were eventually put back into their series but by then I had moved on. I certainly remember you and your dedication to saying what was on your mind, for better or worse.

With the success of CMx1 came a certain level of respect for the developers. People trusted them and didn't question their direction. I think they eventually lost that good faith and their relationship with the members changed. Long time members began to challenge their wisdom and a combative period began. I'm not sure it ever ended. Seems like I remember a long thread with a car enthusiast analogy.

Ive never bought anything beyond Normandy 1.0 simply because I discovered Matrix and their DRM free products. I just don't like to have to work so hard for something that should be very simple. 3 lifetime installs turned out to be 2 more than I needed. These days I spend my time with Graviteam Mius Front with a sometimes combative developer, but one that makes himself available. I stand behind his vision.

I do hope for good things for CM players and Battlefront equally and have some very fond memories of that time.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on October 05, 2018, 08:09:32 AM
Quote
one presents himself as a hermit in the woods, the other as nothing but a brain in a jar


Lol. That's actually very funny.

No, I do not know that community. I did many years ago when Battlefront Software was a fledgling company with an unproven idea and then an Alpha Demo. Heck, I even ran the first tournament of CMBO, The Not-so-Superbowl for awful players such as myself. I think it was Stuka that won the first one. That community was small, informed, and fun. Fast forward many years to the time SF was being developed. I revisited after a long hiatus to find the same group of members dismayed at the direction Battlefront was taking and worried that the most revered aspects of the series were being abandoned for their new vision, one possibly less hardcore and what they saw at the time as more mainstream.  At that point the community was a victim of its own success and one I did not recognize. Most of the things Battlefront fought against were eventually put back into their series but by then I had moved on. I certainly remember you and your dedication to saying what was on your mind, for better or worse.

With the success of CMx1 came a certain level of respect for the developers. People trusted them and didn't question their direction. I think they eventually lost that good faith and their relationship with the members changed. Long time members began to challenge their wisdom and a combative period began. I'm not sure it ever ended. Seems like I remember a long thread with a car enthusiast analogy.

Ive never bought anything beyond Normandy 1.0 simply because I discovered Matrix and their DRM free products. I just don't like to have to work so hard for something that should be very simple. 3 lifetime installs turned out to be 2 more than I needed. These days I spend my time with Graviteam Mius Front with a sometimes combative developer, but one that makes himself available. I stand behind his vision.

I do hope for good things for CM players and Battlefront equally and have some very fond memories of that time.

Well said - your memory is good! Thanks for sharing this.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on October 06, 2018, 07:51:50 AM
http://community.battlefront.com/topic/133343-shock-force-2-beta-showcase-video/

Looks like some progress is being made.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on October 06, 2018, 08:06:33 AM
http://community.battlefront.com/topic/133343-shock-force-2-beta-showcase-video/

Looks like some progress is being made.

Very first shot - stupid zig-zag road. Second shot - empty sand. Third shot - ridiculous looking "anthill" foxholes. I 'get' that the guy doing this isn't a professional marketer, but how blind to this stuff do you have to be to actually *showcase* the sub-par stuff - there are really good visuals in the game, the 3D vehicles, the soldier animations. This video is unfortunately just 10 minutes of guys hunkering in poorly drawn fortifications and getting killed like fleas.

The guys who make ASL don't bother marketing stuff to newcomers anymore because mostly they just sell stuff to the guys who already own everything. I think BFC is now taking the same approach - rather than try and attract new gamers, they'll just sell to all the guys who have been in it for 20 years, so no need to attempt to hide whatever flaws there are.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on October 06, 2018, 08:07:57 AM
Really hard to see what is different in that showcase video. Its been awhile since I played SF, but that still looks like SF to me. Wasn't expecting significant changes though.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on October 06, 2018, 08:36:25 AM
Really hard to see what is different in that showcase video. Its been awhile since I played SF, but that still looks like SF to me. Wasn't expecting significant changes though.

Compare to BFC's original marketing video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlJJowO8YIA

They keep inadvertently highlighting how outclassed the Syrians are in their own promotional materials. In their original AAR video from 2008, they set the Syrians up in ambush and the Americans still inflicted a total defeat on them.

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: sandman2575 on October 06, 2018, 09:22:10 AM
I don't mean to pile on, but man. Look at that video. Then check out the videos/screen shots of Syrian Warfare, which you can get on Steam for a mere $15.

Yes, I know, Combat Mission does some things more realistically than Syrian Warfare or Call to Arms. But at this point, those 'extra' bits of realism cannot hide the fact that, charitably, this looks like a title from ten years ago.

EDIT -- the zig-zag roads that MD mentions are a particular bugbear of mine. Jeez.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 06, 2018, 09:49:31 AM
I try not to go negative on companies that have held up the hobby I love.

But a few years back, I was a great CM fan. I bought everything.

Now they have lost me....possibly for good.

I recently changed computers...I find the Battlefront uninstall, install, then repeat for expansions, so odious that I just gave up after a while.   

Like my feelings for Stormpowered...I am just too tired of the Battlefront technical mess they have made for their best customers. 

There are too many other great gaming alternatives out there for me to waste any more time with Battlefront.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Ubercat on October 06, 2018, 10:48:57 AM
I try not to go negative on companies that have held up the hobby I love.

But a few years back, I was a great CM fan. I bought everything.

Now they have lost me....possibly for good.

I recently changed computers...I find the Battlefront uninstall, install, then repeat for expansions, so odious that I just gave up after a while.   

Like my feelings for Stormpowered...I am just too tired of the Battlefront technical mess they have made for their best customers. 

There are too many other great gaming alternatives out there for me to waste any more time with Battlefront.

QFT  Except that I didn't even bother trying to reinstall on the new PC I got a few months ago. Their ridiculous DRM kept the games I paid for from being playable on the old PC I had for years. I'm not masochistic enough to try to deal with an actual change in hardware.    :o

(Compare that to Steam. It took what, 5 minutes to install on the new computer? Just like that, my more than 100 games were ready to reinstall whenever I felt like it for a couple of mouse clicks.)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: IICptMillerII on October 06, 2018, 11:02:14 AM
Quote
Very first shot - stupid zig-zag road. Second shot - empty sand. Third shot - ridiculous looking "anthill" foxholes. I 'get' that the guy doing this isn't a professional marketer, but how blind to this stuff do you have to be to actually *showcase* the sub-par stuff - there are really good visuals in the game, the 3D vehicles, the soldier animations. This video is unfortunately just 10 minutes of guys hunkering in poorly drawn fortifications and getting killed like fleas

Oof. Can't win em all I guess. You're right that I'm not a professional, at either making video's or making maps in CM. The zig zag road is my fault.

Really hard to see what is different in that showcase video. Its been awhile since I played SF, but that still looks like SF to me. Wasn't expecting significant changes though.

Most of the changes are "under the hood" bringing the engine up to current. However many of these directly affect gameplay. Firefights for example. In Shock Force 1, machine guns weren't very effective at suppressing the enemy. Now however they are much more effective at doing their jobs. Soldiers are also much better about how they shoot and move now as well.
All of the fortifications, to include Target Reference Points, are now in Shock Force 2. Trenches, foxholes, barbed wire, mines. Further all of the infantry and most of the vehicles I've seen have completely new textures which all look great to me.
There are a ton more changes that would take a long time to list here.

My overall goal with the video was essentially to give people something else to look at besides a few screenshots. . I'm definitely an amateur, and I don't work for BFC. I'll certainly try to improve and do better in the future.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Apocalypse 31 on October 06, 2018, 11:39:02 AM
Quote
Most of the changes are "under the hood" bringing the engine up to current

That's cute.

Most companies have figured out how to do both - make under the hood changes as well as aesthetically pleasing changes to make a game more modern.

I'm staying far away from this title.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on October 06, 2018, 11:53:21 AM
Most of the changes are "under the hood" bringing the engine up to current. However many of these directly affect gameplay. Firefights for example. In Shock Force 1, machine guns weren't very effective at suppressing the enemy. Now however they are much more effective at doing their jobs. Soldiers are also much better about how they shoot and move now as well.

Thanks for posting here, firstly. It's good to have an insider's voice as part of the conversation.

As noted earlier, the official videos all seem to delight in showing just how overwhelming a US force can be against a Syrian defender. But from what I recall of my brief time on the beta team for the original release, the scenarios always seemed to be a lot more fun than that. Even putting aside the fact you can do Red on Red or Blue on Blue and get even match-ups, and putting aside the asymmetrical victory conditions which will balance out some of the real RvB equipment/troop mismatches, I found you *could* get decent Red on Blue matchups, either in scenarios or in Quick Battles. Someone who never played the game and had to judge it on one of these promotional videos would unfortunately not get that impression.

I'm no expert either, but I think I'd rather highlight the positive stuff - the vehicles look good rolling around, there is probably parity between a Stryker company and decent Syrian motorized infantry and a number of other matchups, the map and scenario editor is extremely powerful and a feature most games don't have. And the map artists in the stable have always created a lot of really nice QB maps - another powerful tool. I still remember one early scenario where both sides battled it out in a small town and the outcome was in doubt until the final minutes. The game is capable of creating those tense encounters - finding a way to communicate this would pay dividends.

As a suggestion, you mention how much more stronger/realistic the MGs in 4.0 are. I'd be interested in a compare/contrast of how a US dismounted rifle platoon would fare against a Syrian MG, in the CMSF 1 version and then the exact same forces and terrain in the 4.0 engine. I'd stay away from the fortifications and maybe focus on some of the infantry animations and give some examples of their improved fire and movement routines. I hear what you're saying about how difficult it is to illustrate changes "under the hood" but there are a number of positives that would be - in my opinion - more interesting to potential buyers than a firepower display. I'll be honest, going through the video, I just see all the little abstractions that CM fans have gotten accustomed to, but stick out to those who haven't grown to forgive them. The RPG gunner shooting through a closed window. The trenches that don't seem to protect anyone. The guy running for his life who looks like he's treading water, in slow motion.

I do like that the video tried to sketch out a little story. The slow opening, building up to a look at the defenders, then a look at the attackers. You see the attack go in, you see how the different platoons fire and move in support of each other, and you have an obvious victor in the end, with the 'moral of the story' I guess being that it takes real world tactics and that there is a variety of equipment in the game, and that it's possible to coordinate it all.

It's not a terrible idea, but to someone on the fence, they see all the nitpicky stuff. Maybe I'm just not part of the intended audience, but I'd suggest also there's no need to sell this to guys who already 'get' what CM is. They'll buy this anyway.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on October 06, 2018, 11:57:32 AM
The biggest changes to me are the features that were never brought over from CM1 to CMSF that Steve said weren't need any more now being in the game...hull down, space bar menu call up, etc.  MGs and soldier spacing in CMSF were bad also.  A lot of that got addressed in engine upgrades 2, 3, and 4, but not CMSF.  I always felt CMSF was a test for what they really wanted to do with the engine.

I just remember the insane posts from Steve that none of this stuff was needed...only to put them in for CMBN.  The short of it is I am addicted to buying CM stuff.  I'll buy CMSF2, play around with it a little, then go back to Steel Beasts.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Moreb on October 06, 2018, 12:20:32 PM
I guess I'm just a contrarian because I thought the game looked better than what I remembered. The fact that you can make your own battles from scratch is something my favorite title lacks. The infantry movements were fairly fluid and the sounds clear. I really don't have a dog in this race but I'd sure hate to have this thread degrade into something that reaches the level of animosity that might prevent the sharing of information or one where those close to the project don't even bother showing up. Not that that is the case here at all.

Appreciate the video. Those things take time and effort.

So, I have to ask as an outsider, what are some of the things that players want to see in CM? I have my picks for Mius Front myself. But besides the drm and costly upgrade scheme what are some others?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: IICptMillerII on October 06, 2018, 01:15:28 PM
I just want to quickly point out that I do not work for BFC, nor do I have any insider information aside from being able to play the closed beta. I can only report on what I myself experience and read on the forums.

Quote
Most of the changes are "under the hood" bringing the engine up to current

Most companies have figured out how to do both - make under the hood changes as well as aesthetically pleasing changes to make a game more modern. 

To be clear there are many visual upgrades as well. Shock Force 1 used old animations that Shock Force 2 updates to the current standard seen in Black Sea. Most if not all of the vehicle models have been retextured, and all of the infantry have been retextured as well. Ground textures have also been tweaked from what I've seen. I believe there are also new sound effects, again most likely taken from Black Sea as many of the weapon systems are similar. Amphibious vehicles now function in Shock Force 2, a feature that came with the release of Black Sea. There are plenty of other changes, some of which I'm forgetting.

Quote
As noted earlier, the official videos all seem to delight in showing just how overwhelming a US force can be against a Syrian defender.

I understand this criticism. The video does not show off a scenario. I made the map and placed all the units myself. My goal was just to show some action. Tanks shooting, explosions, a few gun fights, stuff like that. As you mention, scenario's can be made that are much less one sided. Another new feature Shock Force 2 is getting is anti-air assets being able to engage aircraft. US airpower now has to deal with MANPADs and Shilka's, among others. Further, the Syrians get a few tanks that are pretty decent, such as the later T-72 variants with the TURMS-T fire control systems, as well as the export version of the T-90, which is a peer threat to most NATO tanks in game. Again, my intent was to provide some eye candy for those waiting for the full game to release.

Quote
As a suggestion, you mention how much more stronger/realistic the MGs in 4.0 are. I'd be interested in a compare/contrast of how a US dismounted rifle platoon would fare against a Syrian MG, in the CMSF 1 version and then the exact same forces and terrain in the 4.0 engine. I'd stay away from the fortifications and maybe focus on some of the infantry animations and give some examples of their improved fire and movement routines. I hear what you're saying about how difficult it is to illustrate changes "under the hood" but there are a number of positives that would be - in my opinion - more interesting to potential buyers than a firepower display. I'll be honest, going through the video, I just see all the little abstractions that CM fans have gotten accustomed to, but stick out to those who haven't grown to forgive them. The RPG gunner shooting through a closed window. The trenches that don't seem to protect anyone. The guy running for his life who looks like he's treading water, in slow motion.

I'll definitely keep this in mind for future projects. I have certainly gotten used to the infamous CM abstractions, but I know they can be jarring to those not used to the system. I admit that I was mostly thinking of advertising to people who already play CM and are definitely getting SF2 when it releases, and wasn't intending on advertising to newcomers, which was an oversight on my part.

Quote
I do like that the video tried to sketch out a little story. The slow opening, building up to a look at the defenders, then a look at the attackers. You see the attack go in, you see how the different platoons fire and move in support of each other, and you have an obvious victor in the end, with the 'moral of the story' I guess being that it takes real world tactics and that there is a variety of equipment in the game, and that it's possible to coordinate it all.

My goal was to tell a little story that wasn't necessarily realistic. For example, the tactically sound thing to have done would have been to engage the tanks with the Apaches first and then mop up with the tanks. I was going for a Hollywood approach. I took some inspiration from the original Rome:Total War trailer that plays when you launch the game. Starts off slow, with some shots of terrain and units marching, and then ramps up to shots of combat all over the place. This one:
As I said I am certainly an amateur. I came up with all of this on my own and was not directed by BFC. It's basically a hobby of mine that I thought would help give people something to look at while the game is worked on in the meantime.

Thanks for your feedback though. Actual criticism is always better than anonymous "likes" and "dislikes" and I'll definitely keep it in mind going forward.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on October 07, 2018, 02:09:30 AM
It's interesting to see that Steve from Battlefront took the time to create (2) posts in the showcase video thread after not posting anything in two months, but still zero responses to the ton of posts on the anticipated release date being missed.  The theory of Battlefront not having the time to post (which was a thin excuse to begin with) goes out the window.  Obviously, they choose not to communicate with their customers, even the ones who pre-ordered their game.

It will be interesting to see if I actually buy this or not....only way I can show my displeasure is to vote with my wallet.  If it came out back in May, likely would have been slam dunk.  But many months later and radio silence, no longer a sure thing.   Beyond the lack of courtesy to their customers, just not sure if seeing/hearing enough to make me do it....time will tell. 

I'am just curious, is Battlefront financed by something else besides the sale of their games?  Just find it hard to believe they sell enough copies every year to stay in business, especially with the long release cycles and typical delays.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on October 07, 2018, 07:54:39 AM
Yeah, he's been all over that thread for some reason.  I would have thought his time would have been better spent dropping a short paragraph just updating the status of CMSF2.

Frankly, the video does little for me, other than show the game is still alive.   And if the thread managed to get Steve and BFC engaged with their customers again, its done a it.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on October 07, 2018, 06:48:36 PM
some info although not much

I've been holding off posting an official update because there's been an annoying detail and a few other things that needed to get nailed down first.  It's pretty much where I need it to be, so expect a post in a few days.  And no, it won't be to announce CMSF2 is now ready for downloading.

Great, because that's the intended outcome :)

Steve
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on October 07, 2018, 07:09:33 PM
I found this post interesting, and not just about CM.  Not sure how pertinent it is.

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/133207-they-meant-september-of-next-year/?do=findComment&comment=1765153

Sorry, it is the post from snake726 at the bottom.

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on October 07, 2018, 07:34:13 PM
I found this post interesting, and not just about CM.  Not sure how pertinent it is.

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/133207-they-meant-september-of-next-year/?do=findComment&comment=1765153

Sorry, it is the post from snake726 at the bottom.

Hmm. Better call Saul.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Toonces on October 07, 2018, 07:41:02 PM
Heh.  I have no real dog in this fight; I have a few CM games, some of which work and some of which don't and I simply cannot be bothered to figure out how to get the licenses to work again.  Certainly I'm not buying anymore of the games.

But I find it so amusing that we have a CM thread and a Graviteam thread back to back, and one is only complaints, while the other is only praises.

It does make one wonder, right?

This stuff isn't rocket science...or maybe it is...I don't know because I haven't found the right book yet.   ::)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Ubercat on October 07, 2018, 07:46:21 PM
 :DD
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Yskonyn on October 08, 2018, 05:11:54 AM
If only the Graviteam games werenít so... how to say... eastern; I would definately be all over them, but fact it that CM caters to a nice niche I am into:
-Modern day tactical simulation
-Western Front WW2 tactical simulation
So I just put up with their DRM because I am still finding the games important enough to me. But I happily agree about the zombie state of BFC this last year.
Its about damn time they release stuff again. Especially the patch for 4.0 which has stopped my PBeM games dead.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on October 08, 2018, 09:13:29 AM
I came to the conclusion long ago that BFC builds its games and runs it company for a small group of people who have slowly been added to the beta team or actually employed by BFC.  That group of people has become official/unofficial spokemob for BFC.  I think that is why BFC feels no need to communicate to "customers".  They only open up a little when the beta testers start to grumble.

The rest of us are just here for the ride.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on October 16, 2018, 10:56:58 AM
So when we pushed for Steve to step up and start communicating, I never expected it to be this entertaining.  This thread is not where Steve should have stepped in.  Looking at how many posts and how long they are, he is spending hours arguing with his customers.

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/133207-they-meant-september-of-next-year/?page=19

A simple update on not hitting the estimated date would have been good.  Now he is getting pinned to the mat on holding pre-order money with no commitment to deliver.  He went from not having 5 minutes to post an update to a round-the-clock monitoring of that thread.  Just when I think that thread can't devolve any more, it does.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Tuna on October 16, 2018, 02:31:31 PM
So when we pushed for Steve to step up and start communicating, I never expected it to be this entertaining.  This thread is not where Steve should have stepped in.  Looking at how many posts and how long they are, he is spending hours arguing with his customers.

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/133207-they-meant-september-of-next-year/?page=19

A simple update on not hitting the estimated date would have been good.  Now he is getting pinned to the mat on holding pre-order money with no commitment to deliver.  He went from not having 5 minutes to post an update to a round-the-clock monitoring of that thread.  Just when I think that thread can't devolve any more, it does.

What game is the thread about?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on October 16, 2018, 03:37:08 PM
So when we pushed for Steve to step up and start communicating, I never expected it to be this entertaining.  This thread is not where Steve should have stepped in.  Looking at how many posts and how long they are, he is spending hours arguing with his customers.

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/133207-they-meant-september-of-next-year/?page=19

A simple update on not hitting the estimated date would have been good.  Now he is getting pinned to the mat on holding pre-order money with no commitment to deliver.  He went from not having 5 minutes to post an update to a round-the-clock monitoring of that thread.  Just when I think that thread can't devolve any more, it does.

What game is the thread about?

Combat Mission Shock Force 2
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Tuna on October 16, 2018, 03:46:19 PM
lol. I thought that was out already! A couple weeks ago, people were posting about discounts for CMSF 1 owners, so I thought it was out!  :-X
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on October 16, 2018, 05:55:07 PM
lol. I thought that was out already! A couple weeks ago, people were posting about discounts for CMSF 1 owners, so I thought it was out!  :-X

if it was out, nobody would post in this thread:). we only post here when we have something to complain about:)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: -budd- on October 16, 2018, 07:03:15 PM
I don't really get to worked up about this stuff. I own Red Thunder and the Normandy Big Bundle and haven't really had any issues with upgrading or anything and the one time i did Steve was pretty quick on helping me out. I don't frequent their forums much at all but it certainly sounds as if he doesn't care if he gets and keeps customers. I agree he doesn't owe information about upcoming releases, EXCEPT when you take peoples money on a pre-order, that implies a certain obligation to keep them in the loop and keep them updated.

As a side note, i have the first three games, anyone get those games to use wide screen resolutions? I haven't been able to get them to work on my new laptop. I just cant play in that square box, love me some CMBB.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on October 16, 2018, 07:19:46 PM
Ryan, the link you provided opens on another of Steve's f@##%# car analogies. You could at least warn a guy.  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on October 16, 2018, 07:41:29 PM
I agree he doesn't owe information about upcoming releases, EXCEPT when you take peoples money on a pre-order, that implies a certain obligation to keep them in the loop and keep them updated.


Not sure if "owe" is the right word, but I think there would be nothing wrong with open communication with customers, especially after they missed their own deadline they posted.  He even admitted within the posts that he knew they weren't going to make end of September weeks ago....he absolutely knows this works up his customer base, why not just post a quick message instead of letting your fan base attack each other for 100's of posts?  Every one is entitled to their opinions but his explanation that he doesn't do it because he doesn't think whatever answer he ever gives will be accepted is pretty weak in my opinion.  That's taking the easy way out.  It is what it is at this point, never will change.  Just for the life of me I can't figure out how they are making tons of money where they could care less in losing customers over stupid stuff like this.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: WallysWorld on October 16, 2018, 09:25:30 PM
CMSF2 demo released:  CMSF2 demo (http://community.battlefront.com/topic/133389-cmsf2-demos-released/)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on October 16, 2018, 09:46:38 PM
The demo has been released.


http://community.battlefront.com/topic/133389-cmsf2-demos-released/

Edit: Dang, I have to work on improving the speed of my typing. Beaten to the punch.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on October 16, 2018, 10:26:08 PM
Downloaded, no issues, fast download speed and routine install.

Never really was my area of interest so not overwhelmed. Spun a Bradley in one of the demo scenarios around the block. Fire effects are underwhelming.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on October 16, 2018, 10:32:28 PM
Hmm, looks like the demo is missing a bmp for a damaged roof skin?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on October 17, 2018, 03:27:03 AM
and update on the actual release.....looks like content will be released over multiple releases with the first possibly being at end of october.


We're close to release, but not quite there yet!  The Demos are now out for all to enjoy while we finish things up. Let me explain...

When we set out to remake CMSF1 into CMSF2 we made a decision to release the Base Game and the three Modules all at once.  This allows people to purchase Bundles right away instead of facing the decision to buy sooner, one full priced piece at a time, or wait until we have everything out for a bulk discount.  Since it would suck for you guys to face this choice we opted to release everything at once.

The downside of releasing everything at once is having to rework the content of effectively 4 games at one time.  That's a total of something like 150 battles (stand alone + campaigns) that needed reworking.  As you can imagine it's not just adding the updated style of Briefings, it's about making sure the scenarios are properly balanced with all the game changes from the past 10 years.  Adding FoW fortifications, AI Plan overhauls, touching up maps, etc. and then going through the testing cycle make sure everything works right takes a long time to do.  More than we expected, that's for sure.

OK, OK, OK... I know you're wondering what this all means in terms of a release timeframe.  What we've decided to do is stop making you wait until every single scenario and the 6 campaigns are totally done.  Instead, we're moving towards releasing all the stand alone scenarios, the Base Game campaign (TF Lighting), and the campaign for Marines (Semper Fi!) in one go.  That's a couple hundred hours of entertainment right there, not to mention what QuickBattles adds to the mix.  That should keep you busy while we finish reworking the British and three NATO campaigns :)

I don't think we can get it out the door by the end of October, but we don't want it to be much longer than that.  We released Upgrade 4 at Christmas time last year and we'd rather not do that again for understandable reasons.

I'll give you guys another update at the end of the month.

Thanks for your patience!  This has been a labor of love for sure, with almost equal emphasis on both the labor and the love!

Steve
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Yskonyn on October 17, 2018, 05:58:11 AM
Ok now I am getting a tad annoyed; this realisation probably was coming for a long time. Why go into the endless discussions and anologies instead of just biting the bullit and giving a clear and honest sitrep?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on October 17, 2018, 06:08:18 AM
You're just realizing that now?  I realized Steve's MO back on the original CMSF release.  A bunch of us were posting the issues we were finding and fighting with the beta team about how things were broken.  It went on for months without Steve or anyone official intervening or communicating.  Meanwhile, Steve was posting in a thread about the STryker brigade with multiple posts a day arguing about Stryker tactics.  Nero fiddle while Rome burned.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Yskonyn on October 17, 2018, 07:44:11 AM
No I meant the realisation by BFC that those scenarios would take many hours of work to re-release. I have no beef with Steve, but this last statement by BFC is just plain annoying.
You could even take it as an insult; first going in heated debates with customers over some ligitimate questions all the while knowing ( or did they? Which is even more questionable) the crapton of work still needing to be done.
Just post something like Ssnake did on the delayed SB update: donít expect anything until xx month. Period. Then when xx month comes and its not ready, post a small update explaining the sitrep and again state now dont expect news until xx month. You only promised news, not a release.
Its not exactly rocket science.

When we are facing a delay of whatever kind on a flight the worst things you can do are:
1) lie to your passengers
2) promise something you cant make good on

Other than that youíll probably have little problems as long as you keep communicating at set intervals even if you have no news.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: RyanE on October 17, 2018, 07:52:37 AM
That was my point too.  Steve has been pulling this same crap for years.  And insulting is a good word.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on October 17, 2018, 08:03:57 AM
I suppose it's possible they switched plans in midstream - i.e. were just going to release the original scenarios without modification but then decided to go back and rework them, which would throw their timetable off.

I don't think reworking the scenarios would be trivial work by any stretch.

I noticed one of the demo scenarios was reworked by someone other than the scenario designer. No doubt they are doing this rework of the whole game without the input of many of the original scenario designers (I am one of them and not surprisingly have not been contacted :-) ) Point here is that I don't know what 'reworking' each scenario needs, but without the original designer for some of them, it may take longer to understand the various issues of reinforcement timing, etc. - also, the scen designers now have more sophisticated tools such as triggers available. Even if they *did* have the input of all the original designers (and really, after 10 years, even for them looking at the scens again would pretty much be starting from scratch so really no difference between fresh eyes and the original designer), the changes in the trigger functions alone would I think make it labour-intensive to go back and optimize them. BFC should get kudos, I think, to take the time to revamp all the scens and have them as good as they can make them using the new features.

Worth noting that the scenario designers are all unpaid volunteers. The turnover over the course of the CM titles has been fairly high, I think. In 2000 the big names were Wild Bill Wilder and Rune, and now it's GeorgeMc - probably an overall plus having fresh eyes into the mix. One of them - Dan "Berlichtingen" Brown - has even passed away (he famously designed To The Volga for CMBB). What hasn't changed is the challenge of trying to ride herd over guys who have life and work outside their volunteer scenario designing. Not to mention all those tools such as triggers make the scenario design process take longer, not less time. The tools are not there to optimize the process but to make the AI more complex.

When I was inside the tent, I found the coordination of scenario design efforts was pretty minimal. Both Moon and Rune would have, I thought, ridden herd but it didn't really seem to work that way. I only recall one conversation with any clarity, and that was Moon telling me I needed the Syrian defenders to move around more in the Objective Normandy scenario. My response was that they were in prepared positions and "why would they give away their positions by moving around". My expectations were certainly subverted but I think most play and beta tests are like that - I had pictured an online salon of all these designers giving detailed notes to each other and perhaps even some congratulatory back-slapping, but mostly I think it was a bunch of guys designing and playing stuff in isolation (I would not be surprised to learn that introverts are overrepresented among scenario designers). The lack of feedback was frustrating, and only receiving a single snarky comment about moving guys around did not endear me to the process. I remember putting a highway on the map of another scenario, and putting a big wall running parallel to it, like a sound-break, to separate it from the civilian housing. When it was published, I was surprised to see huge swaths of the wall missing. I suppose it fixed whatever pathing issues I had created, but recall some surprise on my part that no one had discussed it with me first. I may have talked to Steve about it - it's 10 years ago now - and while it wasn't a big deal (I accepted it needed to be done), it kind of highlighted that the coders were busy with their own stuff, the scenario guys were probably all struggling to find time to work on their own stuff so never mind playing other people's stuff, and communication, even in the private forum, was hit or miss.

All of which is to suggest that if communication from BFC on how stuff like that is going is slow - it may be that they honestly don't know where a lot of it stands. A scenario designer promises to update one of his scens, then goes silent for a week - you'd have no idea what was going on. If they're redoing four different sets of campaigns and scenarios now - it would probably be like herding cats unless they've gotten dramatically better at intercommunication.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Yskonyn on October 17, 2018, 08:17:24 AM
Could be. I donít think their intentions are under scrutiny here.
I like the games they make and happily wait for a proper finished or fixed product.

I also like to fly and accept delays are part of the deal with so many interacting parties to get airplanes from a to b.
But just like it would irk me if the crew of that given airline would not be communicating (like my example above) when we have substantial delay it irks me how Steve has communicated these last few weeks.

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on October 17, 2018, 08:29:01 AM
Could be. I donít think their intentions are under scrutiny here.
I like the games they make and happily wait for a proper finished or fixed product.

I also like to fly and accept delays are part of the deal with so many interacting parties to get airplanes from a to b.
But just like it would irk me if the crew of that given airline would not be communicating (like my example above) when we have substantial delay it irks me how Steve has communicated these last few weeks.

I just edited my post above to add some more detail, but will note here that if it's any consolation, during my brief time on the original beta team, communication within the team was just about as poor as the communication with the customers. It may honestly be that they themselves simply don't have a clue what is going on from day to day, particularly as far as coordinating all the 'contractors' such as skin artists and scenario designers.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on October 17, 2018, 09:40:16 AM
Having said all that - it would be interesting to see what the process (if they have one) is for reworking the scenarios. They certainly have the opportunity to do a lot of good PR with this - could do a whole series of blog or forum posts dissecting one of the original scenarios and showing how the engine changes alter the balance and design, talk about reworking the AI plans to include triggers, etc. But again - the BFC guys don't do that themselves, it's all volunteers. Maybe they need to open their wallets and promise a few dollars to guys in the community for creating social media content of high quality. Maybe some of those scenario designers would even stick around longer. :-)

Showing the differences in design and gameplay would be enlightening, and might even be a good learning tool to get more people interested in scenario design. The more tools you build into the editor, I just wonder if it tends to persuade, or dissuade, people from using it.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Yskonyn on October 17, 2018, 11:02:43 AM
I have several ideas in my head -and have so for a long time now- of scenarios I would like to create for CM. I have tried to sit down and learn the tools at a few instances now, but the process is so time consuming that Iíd rather play the game than spend that time fiddling with the editors!

I canít believe anyone who isnít retired would be able to find the time to create a proper scenario! So I have lots of respect for those that spend their free time to create a piece of entertainment for me to play. And I am always amazed at the research and knowledge that went into the historical ones!

It must equally be very hard work having to rework someone elseís scenario for a new game version!
Respect for those willing to put in the time to do, without a doubt, tedious work.

BTW that reminds me, Michael, of a previous episode of the 2 Half Squads; didnít you devise some kind of scenario making tome earlier for ASL?
Respect!
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on October 17, 2018, 11:46:40 AM
I have several ideas in my head -and have so for a long time now- of scenarios I would like to create for CM. I have tried to sit down and learn the tools at a few instances now, but the process is so time consuming that Iíd rather play the game than spend that time fiddling with the editors!

It's definitely challenging. I am not an expert by any stretch, so take with grains of salt - just a duffer - but my own experience is similar to yours. There are some amazing tools now - the elevation controls in the map editor, for example, and the AI triggers. But it is all pretty labour intensive and even when I get a really good idea for something to simulate, I find just opening the editor has me exhausted. So like you, I think hats off to those guys who do stay the course and not just wrestle the interface but actually do great research, design and testing to put forth high quality work.

Quote
I canít believe anyone who isnít retired would be able to find the time to create a proper scenario! So I have lots of respect for those that spend their free time to create a piece of entertainment for me to play. And I am always amazed at the research and knowledge that went into the historical ones!

I agree.

Quote
BTW that reminds me, Michael, of a previous episode of the 2 Half Squads; didnít you devise some kind of scenario making tome earlier for ASL?
Respect!

To be honest, much of the book is listcruft - TO&E data for the major combatants, a list of published articles about scenario design, a table showing the different mapboards and which products they come from, even a list of all the phases of the moon from 1939 to 1945. The meat of the scenario design discussions are actually not original. I decided to write it the same way a military history would be written - I looked at different scenario design discussions over the years and decided to use the words of the real experts - the guys who have been published, and who have written about the process. I think it worked out okay, and like you, gives me a new appreciation for the really talented guys like Pete Shelling, etc., who manage to continually put out good scenarios.

CM, ASL, whichever game you're talking about, the process itself isn't rocket science (look up some details, create a map, forces, and VC, then write the briefings) - but there are definitely limitations imposed on the process, by the creativity of the designer (or lack thereof), the quality of the tools available with which to work, and the ability (or willingness) of the designers to test and fine-tune their creations. The target audiences are generally small and willing to forgive a certain lack of polish - and to heap praise on those who consistently turn out professional looking stuff.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on October 17, 2018, 05:59:31 PM
I don't recall SF1 very well, but reasonably enjoying this version so far as playing the demo.  I am not an expert enough to notice all the things other folks do, probably better that way so I don't become frustrated:)  Although not a big fan of the company and approach, still enjoy the game enough to consider the full purchase.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Cyrano on October 17, 2018, 06:36:48 PM
Liking the demo a great deal, actually.

This is honestly the release I was most excited for knowing how far away early Barbarossa likely is.

Strange road to get here no doubt, but it's good to see the king of the form back in business.

I do share the regrets some have expressed re: the difficulty in crafting scenarios these days.  I used to do it for my own amusement in CMx1, but found in unrewarding in this iteration.



Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on October 17, 2018, 07:20:15 PM
I share the same opinion as others here regarding the editor. I barely touched the CMx1 editor but when I did I could fumble around enough the lash together something's. The new editor is far more powerful but I've touched that even less.

That said, to a couple pojnts mentioned about the beta testers who make the scenarios,  I think of them like hockey goalies or drummers in a rock band. They are wired differently than me. Almost all of the current designers enjoy the process of creating a scenario far more than they enjoy playing the game. What is tedious to me if fun for them. Fookin weirdos. 😀
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: WallysWorld on October 18, 2018, 03:36:06 PM
Just an FYI that BF released an updated demo with the following items updated. You need to download and install the demo again.

1.  "Bradleys" changed to "Strykers" in the Training Scenario

2.  Fixed UI piece to show that the Artillery Support tab is actively selected

3.  Fixed missing building damage artwork (shows up black)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: GJK on October 19, 2018, 07:03:04 PM
I'm sure that I'll find it before I see a reply here, but where is the demo link (CMSF2)??


Edit: Yes, found the link in the forums.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: fran on October 20, 2018, 03:42:08 AM
Battlefront support:

I had to contact battlefront recently for support, logged a ticket and the first reply back was on a Sunday. They sorted the issue in a short period of time.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on October 20, 2018, 06:04:08 AM
Probably dumb question...often I still like to play the we go mode vs real time.....but sometimes find it hard to string commands together.  Is it possible to issue move and dismount/mount orders in same turn?  For example, if I want to move to point A, then dismount, then move to point B.  can you plot all in one turn?  Or does dismount have to be in separate turn?  Can't figure it out.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: sandman2575 on October 20, 2018, 07:21:58 AM
Hey Grim - if you mean for ex. getting troops in an apc to dismount after arriving at a destination in one turn - yes, you can do that. Give the move to destination order to the apc. Then also separately select the mounted squad, and give them a move order to where you want them to dismount to. It'll look strange in that the squad will have the move order vector showing from their current location inside the apc. But what happens is, the vehicle move order overrides the squad's order, so the squads move order only gets carried out when the apc stops moving.

There are ways this can go wrong though, for ex if the apc encounters a threat on way to destination and automatically takes its (incredibly annoying and terribly implemented) evasive action - then the troops will dismount automatically, but also still try to reach their ordered destination, thereby potentially putting them in a suicidal situation.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on October 20, 2018, 10:50:17 AM
Hey Grim - if you mean for ex. getting troops in an apc to dismount after arriving at a destination in one turn - yes, you can do that. Give the move to destination order to the apc. Then also separately select the mounted squad, and give them a move order to where you want them to dismount to. It'll look strange in that the squad will have the move order vector showing from their current location inside the apc. But what happens is, the vehicle move order overrides the squad's order, so the squads move order only gets carried out when the apc stops moving.

There are ways this can go wrong though, for ex if the apc encounters a threat on way to destination and automatically takes its (incredibly annoying and terribly implemented) evasive action - then the troops will dismount automatically, but also still try to reach their ordered destination, thereby potentially putting them in a suicidal situation.

Thank you so much....I'll give that a try.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on October 21, 2018, 03:09:44 AM
Worked great...thanks!
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Con on October 21, 2018, 09:02:24 AM
Hey Grim - if you mean for ex. getting troops in an apc to dismount after arriving at a destination in one turn - yes, you can do that. Give the move to destination order to the apc. Then also separately select the mounted squad, and give them a move order to where you want them to dismount to. It'll look strange in that the squad will have the move order vector showing from their current location inside the apc. But what happens is, the vehicle move order overrides the squad's order, so the squads move order only gets carried out when the apc stops moving.

There are ways this can go wrong though, for ex if the apc encounters a threat on way to destination and automatically takes its (incredibly annoying and terribly implemented) evasive action - then the troops will dismount automatically, but also still try to reach their ordered destination, thereby potentially putting them in a suicidal situation.
Best workaround for this is to use the pause function to try and setup your timing so that the APC arrives at destination at the end of the 1 min turn thereby allowing you to set the dismount option as the first action next turn.  Pause is also very useful when you implement smoke screens to allow them to become fully developed before you order your troops in.

Con
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on October 21, 2018, 05:11:43 PM
Thanks for the additional tips.....

This demo has rekindled my desire to play this game, been having a blast trying to relearn things...most I have played in years.  Even though I suck at it, still having fun.  The tutorial is even giving me a hard time:)  Had my mortars called in for a trapped enemy, only to see it go way off course and nearly take out my own troops....sigh.

After all the drama with the company and poor communication skills, certainly will be purchasing......I guess I didn't vote very well with my wallet:)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Ubercat on October 21, 2018, 05:19:13 PM
Good luck keeping it running.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on October 21, 2018, 05:22:11 PM
Good luck keeping it running.

And that means?  I have owned every version of Battlefront's games and have never had an issue with installing/playing the games....no issues with DRM (whether I like the scheme or not).
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Ubercat on October 21, 2018, 07:32:31 PM
I was going by my own experience. If I dared stop playing the game for a few months (CMBN, CMFI, CMRT) my game would stop working and I'd have  to spend 1-3 days with a helpdesk ticket to get it up and running again. Absolute BS DRM. I'm done. It's too bad that BF already got a lot of my money, especially considering Steve's contempt for his customers. You're lucky to have had a better experience.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 21, 2018, 09:11:27 PM
Good luck keeping it running.

And that means?  I have owned every version of Battlefront's games and have never had an issue with installing/playing the games....no issues with DRM (whether I like the scheme or not).

That is not my experience. I have had patches fail, then screw up the DRM in the install, forcing me to work with the help desk to do a reinstall and get things working again. This happened twice.

I had Gustav Line install fail when the activation code did not work. This screwed up the entire CMFI...again, another wonderful help desk experience. Actually, the tech was very helpful, but the fact that I even had this kind of problem (ie. not with the core product, but the DRM) makes me mad.

I recently changed computers, but the potential "joy" of uninstalling then installing CMFI and expansion, CMBN with two expansions, CMFB, and CMRT...has just tuned me off.

I keep watching the forum in the vain hope that someday I'll hear that Battlefront has put this DRM mess behind them. 
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Ubercat on October 21, 2018, 09:32:51 PM
I keep watching the forum in the vain hope that someday I'll hear that Battlefront has put this DRM mess behind them.

Unfortunately that's not likely. Steve assumes that wargamers are thieves. He won't settle for a simpler license key strategy like Slitherine/Matrix (let alone Steam).
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mikeck on October 22, 2018, 12:15:55 AM
Graviteam Operation Star, Mius and Tunisia are great games and available on Steam. Just sayiní.  If You have hankeriní for WW2 tactical combat
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on October 22, 2018, 02:20:46 AM
Not a huge fan of the drm but i know that is not changing ever.  guess i have just been very lucky since i own every title and never had any issue installing....and i have large gaps in playing sometimes and each time things went fine.  although i do recall at times trying to remember the patching process before they moved to single full installers.

guess iíll just continue hoping i stay lucky:)  fully intend to purchase the full game when it comes out regardless of drm since i know what i am getting.

as for graviteam, i own some of those too but in this case i am more interested in the content this provides.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Yskonyn on October 22, 2018, 06:45:54 AM
Thats my thing with Graviteam as well; I am not much interested in the battles they depict.

Combat Mission has such a wide range of interesting content.
I only have had trouble once with its DRM and that was during the Ďold wayí with the original CMSF. Otherwise I have never had any problems with it, regardless of changing hardware, not playing for a long while or other.

Iíll be buying CMSF2 as well. Looking forward to it with the Engine4 features.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Cyrano on October 22, 2018, 03:27:20 PM
I've had CMx2 running on four PCs now and have never once had a DRM problem.  I would rather it were not there for patching purposes, but never a problem.

No, my only grievance these days is the limited number of resolution options available for CMx1.  I really wish I could get CM:BB running for old time's sake.

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zonso on October 23, 2018, 04:42:43 PM
CMSF2 demo - Wow, very familiar, like an old friend, but this does feel like more of a new game versus an upgrade. Love it. It plays and runs better, especially infantry behaviour imo which ver 4 seemed to have borked in certain circumstances.

Grim Reaper - CM has always rewarded micromanagement and that is even more true with CMSF2 where every own casualty counts. Use pauses etc to coordinate your vehicle and troops movements. May take a bit of practice to become familiar at first but soon you will be a master choreographer. :)

Never had any issue with DRM either but some like to beat a dead horse ad nauseam even though the world has turned now - twice.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Ubercat on October 23, 2018, 04:52:54 PM
Iím sorry for beating a dead horse. I should just get over it and be happy for those of you who managed to get your moneyís worth.  :bd:
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zonso on October 23, 2018, 05:13:23 PM
No, I think what you need to get over is that your personal experience is not representative of the whole or the norm. Comments such as lucky, managed to get your money's worth etc is simply disingenuous to be polite.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Ubercat on October 23, 2018, 06:25:32 PM
Wow, OK. If I wasn't unlucky for not getting my money's worth then I'm not sure what the cause was. I'll just accept my lumps and bow out. Enjoy the game you paid for.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Tuna on October 24, 2018, 04:57:21 AM
I've had multiple problems with the DRM, I just don't even bother playing, never-mind buying more.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: JudgeDredd on October 24, 2018, 05:38:50 AM
I was VERY surprised to be able to load each of my Battlefront games with no problems after more than a year of not doing so.

I've had issues with their DRM. It's a freakin' nightmare and upgrading to newer versions have resulted in issues too. I won't say I'm not to blame occasionally - but still, the problem shouldn't be there for someone owning a game. End of.

Shock Force was my favourite iteration of the game and I desperately wanted a new version - but I'm not heaving money out my wallet...I've got something like 4 or was it 5 modules for SF!

Like Tuna - I hardly play now.

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Ubercat on October 24, 2018, 05:40:24 AM
Well guys, keep your mouths shut about it. This is a praise only thread.  :D
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on October 24, 2018, 06:27:41 AM
Well guys, keep your mouths shut about it. This is a praise only thread.  :D

This thread is far from a praise thread, would say quite the opposite.  Very little talked about the actual game. 

For me personally, I never said others donít have issues and fully agree the drm sucks, but I shared just one view point where I happen to work ok and enjoy the game.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: trek on October 24, 2018, 06:48:35 AM
Like many here I've only had one incident with BF's DRM scheme. And that was TOW Kursk. Not one of BF's own games. I had bought TOWK originally thru BF. Any way even after multiple tries with support I couldn't get it fixed. I finally gave up and purchased it thru Steam.

And Ubercat I too have been lucky with the BF DRM. And like you I think they're system is a nightmare. Awhile back I re-installed the original CMSF with all the modules. I was able to do this successfully only because I had documentation that I had filed away for this eventuality with step-by-step instructions.

I also can't figure out why BF can't adopt a DRM like Matrix Games. Is it because they're a smaller company? Maybe, but even Ubisoft  has created problems for consumers with their U-Play. Lots of complaints on Steam about that one. I recall someone on this forum was having a problem installing Silent Hunter 5 due to the same issue.

I will say that a month ago I re-installed CMBN and all it's modules and the whole process went much quicker and smoother. Didn't seem that I had to jump thru as many hoops to get it installed.  Maybe they've improved the system?

I wasn't planning on buying CMSF2. After playing the Demo I've changed my mind. The game looks and plays so well and it's like going back to an old friend. I forgot how great the game is. I'm not too much on modern combat games but for this one I will make and exception.

I think you should try the Demo if you hadn't already and give the game another shot. Because I think you'll be missing out on some great gaming. And maybe like some of us here you'll get lucky this time. If you have the old CMSF you'll get a substantial discount too.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Yskonyn on October 24, 2018, 06:49:58 AM
Donít feed the trolls, Grim. Weíre running low on cookies.  L:-)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: trek on October 24, 2018, 07:01:03 AM
Ubercat to me is not coming off as a Troll by any means. Like anyone who has had multiple problems with a game he's just looking for a little support.  Many of these threads and the comments we post can come off as Fanboy-like whether we realize it or not. 
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Yskonyn on October 24, 2018, 07:13:58 AM
Well he leaves no oppertunity unused to make his point about HIM having had problems regardless of othersí experiences.

The only praise thid thread advocated was by a few individuals posting about how much fun they have with the new demo.

The rest was pretty negative about BFCís way of comms and their DRM. I donít see much fanboism either. Almost all people praising CM for what it is also spoke out negatively about BFC and their DRM.
So I am not quite sure why it is such a problem for some that its not all black nor white.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: JudgeDredd on October 24, 2018, 07:47:42 AM
Never had any issue with DRM either but some like to beat a dead horse ad nauseam even though the world has turned now - twice.
Well - far be it for me to be judge - but I think his response was directed at the passive aggressive nature of the above.

Passive aggressive. Drive by. Call it what you will. UC decided to vent about their DRM and he was (indirectly obviously) accused of beating a dead horse and as an exit, a little trivial statement about the world turning kind of made it a drive by.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on October 24, 2018, 08:00:26 AM

Well - far be it for me to be judge -

You are JudgeDredd! Who better to be judge than you!?!  :2funny:
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: JudgeDredd on October 24, 2018, 08:13:39 AM
lol - I know - but I have some bias here  :buck2:
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on October 24, 2018, 08:33:42 AM
I will say that a month ago I re-installed CMBN and all it's modules and the whole process went much quicker and smoother. Didn't seem that I had to jump thru as many hoops to get it installed.  Maybe they've improved the system?


As one of those who never had a real problem with the DRM, I haven't followed closely, but I do vaguely recall some discussions of improvements, so that may be a fair observation.

I think the only thing that really got in my way was a possible conflict between CM and my virus checker, and once I investigated and fixed it, there was no problem.

I sympathize with those who find that it doesn't work for them, though, no doubt it is frustrating.

Not being independently wealthy, I haven't had to worry about moving licenses, as my gaming rig is probably almost a decade old at this point. Also doubles as my working rig, my home finances rig, my web-browsing rig and my email rig and my everything else rig...
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Zonso on October 24, 2018, 10:47:02 AM
I don't know, I browsed this thread again this morning just to see if my memory was mistaken, but nope. Finding praise in this thread is like the proverbial needle in a haystack. What there is is a whole litany of complaints about drm, lack of communication/updates, lack of new content, old engine, not on Steam and doom and gloom on BFC's solvency etc. A handful of posts from a few who say hey this is a good game, but perhaps that qualifies as rampant fanboyism and praise only?  :P

CMSF turned me on to Modern combat and CMSF2 has rekindled that interest again. Not a revolutionary step no, it is still CM, but definitely a culmination of improvements that make it feel like a brand new game. I am having a lot of fun with the demo and from the BFC forum a lot of others are also. What has become apparent is I really had gotten away from thinking 'like a real commander giving orders to real soldiers' in regards casualties after playing the WWII titles and will need to fit that hat again.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Yskonyn on October 24, 2018, 11:10:00 AM
I don't know, I browsed this thread again this morning just to see if my memory was mistaken, but nope. Finding praise in this thread is like the proverbial needle in a haystack. What there is is a whole litany of complaints about drm, lack of communication/updates, lack of new content, old engine, not on Steam and doom and gloom on BFC's solvency etc. A handful of posts from a few who say hey this is a good game, but perhaps that qualifies as rampant fanboyism and praise only?  :P

 

More more eloquent than myself, but my point exactly.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on October 28, 2018, 05:49:31 PM
latest post from steve.....not feeling good about a release before end of october:(. i say just release it since they arenít releasing all the campaigns anyway....might as well get started since it likely will not become perfect

óóóóóóóóóóóóóó-
Still working on it ;)  One of the side effects of handling sooooo much (too much!) content all at once is it takes a long time to find all of the bugs.  For example, on Friday I went into the TO&E to find a bug that was identified (more of a rough corner) and discovered that one of the more obscure vehicles had the wrong crew assigned to it.  Which would negate the use of its primary weapon if the vehicle suffered even one casualty.  Obviously no tester ran into that situation and so it wasn't discovered until now.

At some point we're just going to have to live with a release that has the potential for minor glitches like this then release a patch.  It's either that or keep this thing in the oven at the 99% complete stage for a while longer.  I don't think anybody wants that, so we're going to get this thing wrapped up very soon.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: IICptMillerII on October 30, 2018, 03:04:41 PM
Here is a showcase video showing the Syrians conducting a successful armored assault against defending Germans. It is taken from a modified version of the NATO scenario "Bier un Brezel" and showcases some of the Syrians new equipment, specifically the T-72AV with TURMS-T sights. This depicts the Syrians in a much better light than the first video, while also showing a fair amount of give and take between them and the German defenders. Hope you all enjoy!

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Sir Slash on October 30, 2018, 05:19:19 PM
Enjoyed it I did. Thanks CptMiller.  O0
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Cyrano on October 31, 2018, 08:08:00 AM
Oooh, that APC trying to pop smoke and get out of Dodge.  Ow...
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Sir Slash on October 31, 2018, 09:04:18 AM
Yeah, and the Leopards didn't fare too well either did they?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on October 31, 2018, 03:37:54 PM
I was really hoping they were going to release by end of October, even with the partial campaigns:(
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: MOS:96B2P on November 01, 2018, 12:12:38 PM
Here is a showcase video showing the Syrians conducting a successful armored assault against defending Germans.


Thanks for taking the time to make and share the video.  Very cool.  Looking forward to the release of CMSF2.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: MOS:96B2P on November 04, 2018, 01:24:17 PM
From the CMSF2 demo.  An IED triggerman.

(https://i.imgur.com/j5yuUjxh.jpg)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Yskonyn on November 04, 2018, 02:45:20 PM
Dang! Every time this thread shows unread posts I am clicking it hoping to find the message that CMSF2 and / or Engine 4 patch has been released.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Sir Slash on November 04, 2018, 09:26:06 PM
That guy wears the same kind of Converse shoes I do, though I don't really think white and camo match.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Con on November 04, 2018, 09:29:22 PM
That guy wears the same kind of Converse shoes I do, though I don't really think white and camo match.
Fashion faux pas. You canít wear white and camo after Labor Day.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Sir Slash on November 04, 2018, 09:32:34 PM
Maybe that explains the mask.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: MOS:96B2P on November 05, 2018, 07:17:31 AM
From the CMSF2 Demo - USMC module - The scenario - Day at the beach.  Now Shock Force has amphibious vehicles.  Very cool.

(https://i.imgur.com/Mw8lcvPh.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/oGgQPc3h.jpg)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Redwolf on November 06, 2018, 11:39:26 AM
Those are very nice features, but do you still need a PhD in action spot mechanics to position a squad behind some cover? (as opposed to them being exposed in front of cover)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: MOS:96B2P on November 06, 2018, 12:02:33 PM
Interesting, that is not a problem I've had.  For me, with squads split into fire teams they generally take cover where possible as intended.  There is also the Face command which will help reorient the action spots.  If the formation is to big for the cover I can see where this could happen.  The CMSF2 demo is free.  You could check it out and see if the same thing still happens for you.     
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: IICptMillerII on November 06, 2018, 12:18:53 PM
No one has posted this yet so I figured I would. The following is taken from a text file included with the CMSF2 demo that details many (though not all) of the changes and new features since Shock Force 1.

********************************
WHAT IS NEW SINCE SHOCK FORCE 1:
********************************

Combat Mission: Shock Force 2 includes the following new or enhanced features that have accumulated during the evolution of the Combat Mission Engine since Shock Force 1. The following list only contains major new features and adjustments. The list of tweaks and smaller changes to the simulation of modern equipment are too numerous to list here.

***AMPHIBIOUS VEHICLES***

Water is no longer an obstacle! Many Syrian and USMC vehicles are now capable of swimming across the surface of water obstacles, giving them enhanced tactical utility.
Amphibious vehicles are capable of moving through Water, Ford Deep, and Reeds terrain. Marsh and Deep Marsh ground types remain impassable to amphibious vehicles. Ordering a vehicle to move through water is as simple as issuing any normal movement command onto or across water. When it reaches the water, the vehicle will begin swimming.
Amphibious movement speed is capped at a relatively slow maximum swimming speed. In addition, passengers and crew cannot dismount or bail out if the vehicle is in deep water (not a Ford); if the vehicle is destroyed while in deep water, all passengers and crew are lost.

***ELECTRONIC WARFARE***

Don't want modern radio and satellite communications nets for your scenario? Shut them down! A new scenario environmental setting that can be independently set for either side simulates electronic warfare attacks allows you to degrade or completely disable electronic communications, forcing even Information Age forces to communicate without the benefit of modern technology.

Electronic warfare is represented in the game through a Data editor setting. (it is also available in the QB setup window). There are two settings: Blue Electronic Warfare Strength, and Red. The setting for one side will negatively affect the enemy systems. So for example, if Blue EW strength is set to Strong, then the Red player will feel the effects of Strong EW. These settings do NOT cancel each other out! So you could theoretically set both to Medium and both sides would have seriously degraded comms. Once in battle, you can see what the EW strength is for both sides by checking the Conditions panel.

The available EW strengths are None, Light, Medium, and Strong.

   NONE:
*   No EW assets are deployed against the enemy. Systems are unaffected.
   LIGHT:
*   Hand-held "walkie-talkie" radio communications are degraded. Manpack radios (as carried by "radio operator" soldiers), and vehicle-mounted radios are unaffected.
*   Hand-held satellite communications links via PDA devices are degraded. Vehicle-mounted satellite stations such as FBCB2 are unaffected.
   MEDIUM:
*   Hand-held radio equipment no longer functions.
*   Manpack radio and vehicle-mounted radios still function but are degraded.
*   Hand-held satellite communications links via PDA devices no longer function.
*   Vehicle-mounted satellite stations such as FBCB2 are degraded.
*   Delivery times for artillery and air support Missions are much longer due to comms interference.
*   Precision artillery missions of all types are not available.
*   The ability of on-map Surface to Air Missiles (SAMs) to detect and engage enemy aircraft is degraded.
   STRONG:
*   All radio and satellite communications links are disabled. Units must maintain C3 links via verbal face-to-face communications or visual hand signals.
*   Artillery and air support missions now have an extreme delay, often over 20 minutes.
*   On-map SAM ability to detect and engage enemy aircraft is highly degraded.

***SURFACE-TO-AIR MISSILES (SAMs)***

Combat Mission: Red Thunder introduced anti-air capability to the game. This feature continues in Combat Mission: Shock Force 2 with the addition of Anti-Aircraft (AA) assets that will attack air support that is currently performing Strike missions on the battlefield. The degree to which the AA fire is effective will depend on the AA platform and the air asset involved. AA fire can miss the aircraft, drive it away and force it to abort the attack, or hit and damage or destroy the aircraft.

***PRECISION ARTILLERY***

A few fire support assets, namely American and British 155 mm artillery support, have access to precision artillery shells. These special support missions fire only one artillery shell per gun, but they are guided shells with much higher accuracy and precision. Precision missions do not have a spotting phase; the shells arrive (hopefully) on target with no warning. Precision missions are very useful for attacking enemy armored vehicles that typically need a direct or near-direct hit to knock them out of the fight, or for targeting a specific building or location while trying to avoid collateral damage.

Other important notes for precision artillery missions:

*   Precision missions must use a Point target.
*   Precision missions do not have a duration. The maximum number of shells that can be dropped during a mission is one shell per gun.

***MULTIPLAYER***
    
*   WeGo TCP/IP with the ability to save but not the ability to replay combat action.
*   Pausable RealTime TCP/IP option. A player can request a Pause and, if the other player agrees, the game is Paused until both players are ready to continue play.
    Quick Battles
*   Redesigned Quick Battle Generator that includes the ability for players to purchase formations, units and support, for their own force and for the computer AI. By deleting subformations/units, setting experience, motivation, fitness, and leadership levels, and attaching Specialist Teams and individual vehicles, the player can custom-tailor their force for the mission.
*   Automatically purchased force options are still available for the player and opponent, as well as a "Suggestion" button in the unit purchase screen that will quickly buy a force that the player can then modify.
*   Players can now choose their own maps, and preview maps before playing.

***USER INTERFACE***
    
*   Two new camera control modes have been introduced in addition to the traditional Combat Mission controls: First Person Shooter (FPS), and Real Time Strategy (RTS). These new camera controls allow a player the choice to control the in-game camera in a way that is more familiar to other game genres.
*   Hotkey Unit Groups. Select units and assign them to number keys for quick navigation during gameplay.
*   New Load New Game dialog screen. The list of scenarios can now be sorted by size, length, or alphabetically.
*   Improved Saved Game dialog screen. The list of scenarios can now be sorted by newest file, oldest file, or alphabetically, or filter between single player and PBEM saves. Save games can be deleted in the game.
*   Visual Hotkey binding. A new dialog in the Options menu allows you to specify and view key assignments.
*   KIAs are shown in the Soldier/Crew Panels to track soldiers lost during the game.
*   The Ammo Panel has been redesigned: Ammunition is now listed by name and in discrete quantities instead of icons and depleting bars.
*   Option to disable music separate from other game sounds.
*   Combat Victories (Kill Stats) for individual units showing how many and what types of units the soldier or vehicle has eliminated in the mission (totals tracked for campaigns).
    
***UNITS***

*   FoW floating icons. FoW floating icons. Instead of getting a general area "?" icon and then immediately progressing to an accurate 3D representation, there is now an in-between stage where you get an icon that represents the general category of enemy unit without 3D representation. This tells the player "you know roughly what the unit is, but nothing more specific than that."
*   Command lines are back! Command and Control (C3) links can now be shown on the battlefield, allowing you to quickly determine whether subordinate units are in contact with their headquarters. Use the Alt-Z Hotkey to toggle the feature.
*   Expanded floating icon categories. New unique floating icons have been added for Ammo Bearer, Recon, Engineer, MANPADS, LMG, Light Truck (Antitank), SPAA.
*   Dismounted vehicles function as Ammo Dumps, allowing formations to have reserve ammo stored separately on map (automatically distributed for certain Skill Levels).
*   Player-placeable static defenses and fortifications such as trenches, barbed wire, and mines.
    
***COMBAT SIMULATION***

*   Ground units are now able to fire at attacking aircraft using self-propelled anti-aircraft vehicles, emplaced anti-aircraft guns, or shoulder-launched MANPADS units. Aircraft that are fired upon may have their combat effectiveness diminished, be forced to abort the mission, or even be shot down.
*   Soldiers with assault rifles are more likely to use aimed semi-automatic fire at distant targets instead of burst fire. Soldiers fire weapons faster at short ranges. Machine guns fire longer, more accurate bursts. More realistic and varied Rate Of Fire (ROF) of automatic weapons. Ammo bearers and heavy weapon assistant soldiers generally use their weapons only at shorter ranges.
*   Soldiers can surrender to nearby enemy units and possibly be "rescued" by nearby friendly units. This replaces the old "routing" behavior, which has been removed from the game.
*   Wide range of weather types and environmental effects, including rain, fog, heavy winds (with ballistic effects), different types of ground conditions, animated water effects, and more.
*   Vehicles and soldiers equipped with night vision and thermal vision have a significantly improved boost to spotting abilities in low visibility conditions such as night.
*   Buttoned-up armored vehicles spot enemies to their flanks far less effectively.
*   Improved UI display for timing of pre-planned artillery missions also indicates what delay would be after the battle begins.
*   Small arms fire causes more suppression than before.
    
***MAPS AND ENVIRONMENT***

*   Game performance and load times for large maps have been improved.
*   Maps can now be up to 8 kilometers long or wide (up from 4 kilometers). However, total map size is still restricted to 16 square kilometers. This means that you can make a 2 kilometer wide map that is 8 kilometers long!
*   Expanded environmental assets mean that you can conduct combat operations in lush rural landscapes, dense urban settings, or anywhere in between.
*   Water terrain types added: Water, Reeds, Deep Ford, and Shallow Ford. Infantry can cross Deep Ford and Shallow Ford, while non-amphibious vehicles can only cross Shallow Ford.
*   Bridges are now available as a terrain type. Bridges come in multiple varieties, including wooden foot bridges, small rural stone bridges, large concrete traffic bridges, and even railroad bridges.
*   Improved tree and bush models. Forest ground tiles can accompany them for proper forest terrain.
*   Generic buildings can now be up to 14 stories high (up from eight).

***SOLDIERS***

*   Dynamic, context sensitive equipment loadouts for individual soldiers depending on what weapon and equipment are carried.
*   Expanded soldier details. A completely new way of assigning models and textures allows greater flexibility and variety of how Soldiers look in the game. It also allows for more flexible modding possibilities.
*   Night vision equipment will be automatically and visually equipped in scenarios with low-light conditions.
*   Many new soldier animations, stances and positions, including kneeling and sitting positions for crew served weapons, pistol firing animations, hand grenade throwing, crew functions, first aid, and much more...
*   Soldiers will automatically share ammo with other nearby units if needed.
    
***FIRE SUPPORT***

*   On-map mortars, both dismounted and vehicle-mounted, are now available. On-map assets such as mortars are able to fire in both direct and indirect modes, using their own spotters or separate forward observers.
*   Spotters are now restricted to directing only one artillery or air support mission at a time. Assets can now be group fired by shift-left-clicking them, allowing more than one Asset to be assigned to the same Mission.
*   Player-placeable Target Reference Points (TRPs) allow simulating prepared support strikes and ambushes. Support missions aimed at TRPs do not require LOS from the spotter, or any spotting phase.
*   Precision artillery missions are available for Point targets. These missions are only available for certain artillery assets.
*   Helicopter support no longer requires Line of Sight (LOS) for the spotter to call in a mission. In other words, the mission can be called anywhere on the map.

***COMMANDS***

*   Scout Team Command splits off 2 men to act as scouts.
*   Target Armor Arc Command. Instructs units to engage only armored units within the specified arc. As with most Commands, outcome varies greatly depending on unit quality and battlefield conditions.
*   Target Briefly Command. Tells a unit to fire all its guns on a designated spot for 15 seconds, then cease fire.  Issuing the command repeatedly increases the duration in increments of 15 seconds.
*   Mark Mines Command for Engineer teams and squads.
*   Waypoint dragging. A waypoint can be clicked on and moved by dragging it to a new location.
*   Grouped Spacebar Command system. Instead of getting all of the commands in a big list when the Spacebar is used, you get four groups of commands: Movement, Combat, Special, and Administrative. Selecting one of these presents the Commands specific to that Commands Group.
*   For vehicles with more than two weapons systems, such as an IFV armed with ATGMs, cannon, and MGs, the Target Light Command will fire only MGs on the target, while the Target Command will allow all weapon systems to be fired.

***GRAPHICS AND PERFORMANCE***

*   Faster graphics, including FPS improvements, especially for infantry-heavy maps and faster video cards.
*   Possible speed improvements depending on video card hardware and drivers.
*   Movie Mode.
*   Bright Night Mode.
*   Hit impacts to vehicles and bunkers now shown graphically ("hit decals").
*   Improved rendering. Normal and Bump mapping allows for more texture detail while using less system resources and improving the pressure on framerates.

***EDITOR***

*   Single vehicles and specialist teams can be purchased and attached to any formation in the editor or Quick Battle purchase window, allowing players to custom-tailor their formations.
*   Exit objectives.
*   Improved scenario briefing format, including a new Designer Notes subsection.
*   "Reduced headcount" option to simulate previously depleted formations.
*   "Ditch Contours" feature. Map editor elevation changes can be "sharp" by holding the control key when clicking tile elevations.  This allows the creation of realistic ditch contours.
*   Ability to create AI Triggers that execute actions based on other units or interaction with Objectives.
*   Improved responsiveness of 2D editing, especially for large maps.
*   Improved load time for 3D Preview, especially large maps.
*   Customized "Mod Tags" for most graphics. This allows for multiple mods for the same item without the need to move items in/out of the mod folder.
*   Ability to specify specific mods be used for a specific Scenario. If CM fails to find the specified mod it will use the default graphics.
*   Auto-Assemble linear terrain tool. Roads, walls, fences, and hedges can now be automatically drawn across the map instead of placing them one tile at a time. The old manual selection interface still exists to allow tweaking specific Action Spots.
*   BMP map overlay. Instead of having to create game maps by freehand you can now trace over a real world map within the Editor. Four different levels of transparency make the process easier by adjusting for different needs as work progresses.
*   More AI Groups. The number of AI Groups available has been increased from 8 to 16. This allows for greater fidelity of AI Plans and their assigned units.
*   Copy and paste AI Plans. Create a solid AI Plan, copy it, and paste it into an unused AI Plan slot. Once done the copied Plan can be modified to make a unique variant without having to build the Plan up from scratch.

*************************************
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on November 07, 2018, 07:48:38 AM
Nice summary of all the major engine changes, which would apply to the other members of the Family - thanks for posting it, I never would have noticed it in my downloaded demo files.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on November 23, 2018, 05:06:55 AM
I hate to ever get any hopes up that we might be getting closer, but recent post from BF.....maybe "near" means at least by end of the year.

Crunch time sucks under any and all circumstances.  Crunch time right before major Holidays sucks 10x worse.  Even though we don't have corporate masters forcing us to work 100 hour weeks without extra pay, it's still not ideal ;)

We've been in the annoying phase of "drip drip" issues that nix a possible release candidate.  In a normal corporate setting nobody goes home until all of those things are fixed.  For us, we have to accept the fact that we don't have an office and slave labor at our beck and call (sorry, "valued salaried employees" I think is the proper term for games industry workers!).  If we did try to pull crap like 24 hour work days (something I do NOT miss AT ALL) we'd never get a game done because everybody would tell us to go screw ourselves.  Er, including me!

The good news is we've been in this final detail mode for a few weeks now.  It usually doesn't last longer than that, even for us.  Take that as a sign that a release is nearing.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Barthheart on December 04, 2018, 09:12:30 AM
ShockForce 2 is up for sale!  :o
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 04, 2018, 09:28:50 AM
ShockForce 2 is up for sale!  :o

You say it is up "for sale", but does this mean it can be bought, downloaded and played? Its been up "for sale" for awhile...I'm afraid to go and look.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Barthheart on December 04, 2018, 09:31:20 AM
ShockForce 2 is up for sale!  :o

You say it is up "for sale", but does this mean it can be bought, downloaded and played? Its been up "for sale" for awhile...I'm afraid to go and look.

Nope, you can buy it and download it and play it... apparently. I haven't' tried.... yet....

Reading the BF forums:
http://community.battlefront.com/topic/133390-cmsf2-release-update/?page=7

Looks like if you want to upgrade yer old version you'll have to wait until later today. But a fresh buy can be had now.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Barthheart on December 04, 2018, 09:43:35 AM
And now even the upgrade option is available!  :D
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 04, 2018, 10:14:57 AM
I bought the big bundle upgrade, but damned if I know how I'm supposed to get it working. So I download the upgrade package and use my original SF1 key? What about all the bundle keys?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: IICptMillerII on December 04, 2018, 11:02:03 AM
Yup, it's finally out! This is the "soft release" phase BFC does, where they make a new product available for purchase about a day or so before making an official announcement to give them time to address any bugs/glitches/quirks that appear during the release, such as payment/download issues.

I bought the big bundle upgrade, but damned if I know how I'm supposed to get it working. So I download the upgrade package and use my original SF1 key? What about all the bundle keys?

I haven't had a chance to buy the upgrade and apply it yet, but my understanding is that you install the new game in full, then when prompted to activate you first use the new license key, and then you use the old license key, linking them.

Sorry I can't be more specific, as I said I haven't had a chance to do it myself yet. I'll post an update later this evening when I get everything up running myself.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on December 04, 2018, 11:45:50 AM
Does anyone have direct link to full bundle upgrade?  Some reason canít find in the store.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 04, 2018, 12:03:15 PM
Does anyone have direct link to full bundle upgrade?  Some reason canít find in the store.

https://www.battlefront.com/cmsf1-upgrades/cmsf1-big-bundle-upgrade/ (https://www.battlefront.com/cmsf1-upgrades/cmsf1-big-bundle-upgrade/)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on December 04, 2018, 12:13:18 PM
Thanks got it
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on December 04, 2018, 02:04:31 PM
I bought the big bundle upgrade, but damned if I know how I'm supposed to get it working. So I download the upgrade package and use my original SF1 key? What about all the bundle keys?
\

Here ya go. From the webpage. Says it better than I probably could :-):

HOW TO ACTIVATE
As with all current CM2 games the Base Game contains 100% of the data needed for any Module or Pack. Therefore, there is nothing to download for any CMSF2 Module Upgrade. After you receive your Marines Module Upgrade license key, simply launch CMSF2 Base Game using "Activate New Products", and enter your new CMSF2 Marines Module license key. After doing this you need to exit the game and repeat with your original CMSF1 Marines Module license key.

If you do not have your original license key, and you purchased with a download option, check your store account under the "My Orders" option. Your key is associated with your old order. If you purchased a physical copy only, your license key is on a sticker affixed to your CD case. If you can't find your key, file a ticket with our Help Desk. Remember to include your full name and an Order Number if you have it. We will get back to you as quickly as we can. Please be patient.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 04, 2018, 02:09:25 PM
^I read that. It is still somewhat confusing.

First, it says there is nothing to download, but I received a download link with my order that takes me to a 2GB file.

Second, I ordered the Big Bundle since I own all of the CMSF1 modules. I did not receive a "Marines Module Upgrade key" with my purchase of the big bundle. There does seem to be some activation key for the big bundle, but its not specifically for the "Marine Module".

Third, what about all the other modules? How do I get access to those? Do I need the keys from my original CMSF1 purchases?

 
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: trek on December 04, 2018, 02:34:03 PM
Not positive about this but I recently reinstalled CMBN and upgraded it to the v4.0 engine. With this latest install BF uses the "Master Installer." So, instead of the old way in which I had to provide a license key for each and every module under the new installer I only had to enter one license key. I think it will install all modules from what you've already downloaded if it works the way CMBN did with all it's modules. The only caveat here is it may ask you to enter a license key if you try to play a mission from one of the other modules. But, again CMBN did not require me to do that either.

I want to buy the Bundle Upgrade too but I will wait to see the feedback on the install process from you guys. The thought of having to input all those long key codes for all the modules makes me feel ill and right now at the end of the day I just don't feel like doing it.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: DoctorQuest on December 04, 2018, 02:38:54 PM
You can't copy and paste the keys?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: jomni on December 04, 2018, 02:50:22 PM
Havenít bought a CM title wine Black Sea. Looking to try this during the weekend.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on December 04, 2018, 02:56:55 PM
^I read that. It is still somewhat confusing.

First, it says there is nothing to download, but I received a download link with my order that takes me to a 2GB file.

Second, I ordered the Big Bundle since I own all of the CMSF1 modules. I did not receive a "Marines Module Upgrade key" with my purchase of the big bundle. There does seem to be some activation key for the big bundle, but its not specifically for the "Marine Module".

Third, what about all the other modules? How do I get access to those? Do I need the keys from my original CMSF1 purchases?

The reference to not needing to download anything for the Marines module is because the download for the Upgrade is an all-in-one full game installer and will install all of the modules, regardless of whether or not you own them. The activation process "unlocks" the content.

Yes, you will need your original CMSF1 keys.  Anyone can buy the CMSF2 Upgrade...even if you never owned the original....but to activate the Upgrade you will need your old keys, in addition to the key that you got today. If you have a problem finding your old keys open a Help Desk ticket and I can dig them up for you. They will be in your Battlefront.com account.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 04, 2018, 03:07:05 PM
^I read that. It is still somewhat confusing.

First, it says there is nothing to download, but I received a download link with my order that takes me to a 2GB file.

Second, I ordered the Big Bundle since I own all of the CMSF1 modules. I did not receive a "Marines Module Upgrade key" with my purchase of the big bundle. There does seem to be some activation key for the big bundle, but its not specifically for the "Marine Module".

Third, what about all the other modules? How do I get access to those? Do I need the keys from my original CMSF1 purchases? At what point in that process do I enter the key that came with the upgrade?

The reference to not needing to download anything for the Marines module is because the download for the Upgrade is an all-in-one full game installer and will install all of the modules, regardless of whether or not you own them. The activation process "unlocks" the content.

Yes, you will need your original CMSF1 keys.  Anyone can buy the CMSF2 Upgrade...even if you never owned the original....but to activate the Upgrade you will need your old keys, in addition to the key that you got today. If you have a problem finding your old keys open a Help Desk ticket and I can dig them up for you. They will be in your Battlefront.com account.

i won't get into the fact that the instructions suck and make what is probably a simple process much more confusing and complicated then it needs to be.

So if I have the old base game and all the old modules and keys, in what order am I supposed to activate them after I install the file that was provided with my purchase of the big bundle upgrade?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on December 04, 2018, 03:46:54 PM
^I read that. It is still somewhat confusing.

First, it says there is nothing to download, but I received a download link with my order that takes me to a 2GB file.

Second, I ordered the Big Bundle since I own all of the CMSF1 modules. I did not receive a "Marines Module Upgrade key" with my purchase of the big bundle. There does seem to be some activation key for the big bundle, but its not specifically for the "Marine Module".

Third, what about all the other modules? How do I get access to those? Do I need the keys from my original CMSF1 purchases? At what point in that process do I enter the key that came with the upgrade?

The reference to not needing to download anything for the Marines module is because the download for the Upgrade is an all-in-one full game installer and will install all of the modules, regardless of whether or not you own them. The activation process "unlocks" the content.

Yes, you will need your original CMSF1 keys.  Anyone can buy the CMSF2 Upgrade...even if you never owned the original....but to activate the Upgrade you will need your old keys, in addition to the key that you got today. If you have a problem finding your old keys open a Help Desk ticket and I can dig them up for you. They will be in your Battlefront.com account.

i won't get into the fact that the instructions suck and make what is probably a simple process much more confusing and complicated then it needs to be.

So if I have the old base game and all the old modules and keys, in what order am I supposed to activate them after I install the file that was provided with my purchase of the big bundle upgrade?

Any order should be fine but I'd start with the base key. After that then the modules in no particular order. Think of it this way....If you have just the Brit module now but down the road decide that you want the Marines and NATO module then you would activate them when you get the key with the purchase because they are already installed...they just need to be "unlocked".
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 04, 2018, 03:54:07 PM
^I read that. It is still somewhat confusing.

First, it says there is nothing to download, but I received a download link with my order that takes me to a 2GB file.

Second, I ordered the Big Bundle since I own all of the CMSF1 modules. I did not receive a "Marines Module Upgrade key" with my purchase of the big bundle. There does seem to be some activation key for the big bundle, but its not specifically for the "Marine Module".

Third, what about all the other modules? How do I get access to those? Do I need the keys from my original CMSF1 purchases? At what point in that process do I enter the key that came with the upgrade?

The reference to not needing to download anything for the Marines module is because the download for the Upgrade is an all-in-one full game installer and will install all of the modules, regardless of whether or not you own them. The activation process "unlocks" the content.

Yes, you will need your original CMSF1 keys.  Anyone can buy the CMSF2 Upgrade...even if you never owned the original....but to activate the Upgrade you will need your old keys, in addition to the key that you got today. If you have a problem finding your old keys open a Help Desk ticket and I can dig them up for you. They will be in your Battlefront.com account.

i won't get into the fact that the instructions suck and make what is probably a simple process much more confusing and complicated then it needs to be.

So if I have the old base game and all the old modules and keys, in what order am I supposed to activate them after I install the file that was provided with my purchase of the big bundle upgrade?

Any order should be fine but I'd start with the base key. After that then the modules in no particular order. Think of it this way....If you have just the Brit module now but down the road decide that you want the Marines and NATO module then you would activate them when you get the key with the purchase because they are already installed...they just need to be "unlocked".

OK. I guess I'll give it whirl. With this "trial and error" approach, however, be prepared for a lot for requests for new keys. Hope you're prepared to stay up late.  :crazy2:
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: IICptMillerII on December 04, 2018, 03:58:55 PM
Edited due to a mistake I made. Hopefully I haven't caused too much confusion.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mikeck on December 04, 2018, 04:11:28 PM
Edit: crises averted. Elvis squares me away
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on December 04, 2018, 04:15:14 PM
Ok, I just bought the big bundle upgrade and activated it without any issue.

I'll try to be thorough here.

I own Shock Force 1, the Marine Module, the NATO module, and the British module. I purchased them all online from the BFC website a few years back.

I purchased the $35 USD big bundle upgrade, and received and activation key and a download link via email.

I downloaded Shock Force 2 via the download link (I'm running Windows 10)

After it had downloaded I extracted the zip file using 7zip to my desktop. From there I ran the installer.

After installing the game, I used the 'Activate Product' shortcut, which brought up the activation window. I copied the license key provided in the email for the purchase of the big bundle (the upgrade for $35 USD) and hit activate. It activated successfully.

Then I launched Shock Force 2, and everything was activated and running. I scrolled through all of the individual scenario's to ensure that all the modules were activated, and I started the US Army campaign to insure I could actually start a battle. I believe I am good to go at this point.

Unfortunately I do not know if/how this process is different if you did not purchase SF1 online or if you only have the base game and a single module. I can only speak from my own experience. Hopefully this helps those of you having some difficulty. If not, and you are really stuck, try the support desk. I've personally had to use the support desk on a few occasions, and every time they were exceptional in their service. One of the times occurred over Christmas, and I was very surprised to get a response on Christmas Day from the support desk to help resolve my issue, which was resolved in a matter of hours.

So you didn't have to activate your SF1 keys first?  How would they know if you owned all the modules then?  People could just buy the upgrade version for the cheaper price if only thing used is the bundle key.

I am confused.....
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mikeck on December 04, 2018, 04:26:48 PM
Well, Capt Millerís experience SHOULD be what happens. I would think that it would be the same for people who didnít own SF1 or have no wish to wait around for an old key. Like a SF1 and SF2 bundle for that or something
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on December 04, 2018, 04:31:01 PM
I owned all previous modules for CMSF 1 and bought the upgrade bundle.

Basically to get it working for me, I went into the desktop shortcut  "Activate New Products".  Then I inputted my CMFS2 upgrade key, then activated.  Closed out then came back in and then put in my CMFS 1 module key and activated.  Then I repeated this process for each of my modules and everything then got activated correctly. 

I don't believe you can just put the upgrade bundle key alone if you want to play your prior modules (when I did that, it didn't work).
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: demjansk1942 on December 04, 2018, 04:32:38 PM
I have the original combat mission shock force, what is my next step??
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on December 04, 2018, 04:35:17 PM
I have the original combat mission shock force, what is my next step??

Look at the previous posts above for what has worked for people
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on December 04, 2018, 04:37:31 PM
Christ almighty. Is battlefront on a secret mission to make game downloading unnecessarily difficult?
Ok, so if I DONT OWN SF1....do I understand that I donít need to buy it but need a key? I actually do own it but I donít thjnk itís installed. So what do I do?

I donít suppose someone could make it as easy as
Buy full SF2 at full price
Install
Play


This makes no sense: ď Anyone can buy the CMSF2 Upgrade...even if you never owned the original....but to activate the Upgrade you will need your old keys..Ē

So how would I have an ďoldĒ key to get if I never owned SF1?

Now I have to get with Battlefront service to get a key from a game I bought 10 years ago in order to play a new game I buy today?

Am I missing this completely?

There are 2 different things that became available for sale today. That might be where your confusion is.

1) CMSF2. If you wanted to buy this and have the entire shebang, base game and all 3 modules, it is $125. You download it, install it and enter the single key that comes with that purchase and you have it all. Pretty much exactly what you were looking for in the bit that I bolded above.

2) CMSF2 Upgrade. If you have previously owned the original CMSF1 game you can "Upgrade" that game to CMSF2. If you want to Upgrade the whole shebang it is $35, as opposed to $125. To qualify for the steeply discounted price you need your original CMSF1 key(s) as part of the activation process. License keys for previous purchases can be found in your account on the Battlefront.com website (with the exception of very old orders which were part of the old online store system. For those it's easy enough for me to confirm a purchase and issue a key)

To explain further what I meant by anyone can buy it etc..... There is no requirement to own the earlier game to purchase the Upgrade. Anyone can do it. But if you never owned the original CMSF1 game then the Upgrade doesn't do you any good.

Hopefully that clears up any confusion.

I'm not sure what IICptMillerII did when activating but you 100% need the old keys to activate the Upgrade. Cpt, you made the videos that have been shown so I am assuming you're a beta tester. Your computer "remembers" earlier activations so that is probably why you didn't need to do it.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mikeck on December 04, 2018, 04:40:18 PM
Perfect. Thank you

I do own SF1 but hell if I know where the key is or even what modules I bought. $125 is steep but if things look good with bugs and such, Iíll pull the trigger

Thanks for breaking it down Elvis
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on December 04, 2018, 04:40:50 PM
Well, Capt Millerís experience SHOULD be what happens. I would think that it would be the same for people who didnít own SF1 or have no wish to wait around for an old key. Like a SF1 and SF2 bundle for that or something


Cpt Miller's experience IS what happens if you buy CMSF2 and not the Upgrade.

You should not have to wait around for a key if you own CMSF1 and any of it's modules. They are in your Battlefront.com account.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on December 04, 2018, 04:42:57 PM
Perfect. Thank you

I do own SF1 but hell if I know where the key is or even what modules I bought. $125 is steep but if things look good with bugs and such, Iíll pull the trigger

Thanks for breaking it down Elvis

Don't do it, bro. If you don't find the info in your account it is definitely worth dropping me a line. It doesn't take long for me to find someone's information and whatever time it takes is worth saving $90. We love money at Battlefront but we'd rather earn.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: gregb41352 on December 04, 2018, 05:32:18 PM
Kind of a mess.  Can't login to the website and can't figure out how to order the upgrade only. 
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: IICptMillerII on December 04, 2018, 06:11:46 PM
Oh crap Elvis I think you're right. I'll go back and edit my post earlier so that people are not confused. I guess even I am confused right now  ;D
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 04, 2018, 06:25:17 PM
This is how the Big Bundle upgrade works.

1. Download the CMSF2 Big Bundle Upgrade file (2GB)
2. Extract install files
3. Run installer
4. After installation, Run "Activate New Products" shortcut
5. Paste code that comes with CMSF2 Big Bundle upgrade purchase and activate
6. Run "Activate New Products" shortcut and paste code that came with CMSF1 base game. Activate.
7. Run "Activate New Products" shortcut and paste codes for CMSF1 modules. Activate.
    I did them in following order: Marines, British forces, Nato Forces
8. Run game and play. You should see the symbol for each installed module in the bottom right corner of the screen.

Why simple instructions like this could not be provided ANYWHERE by Battlefront is beyond my understanding.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mikeck on December 04, 2018, 06:44:32 PM
Perfect. Thank you

I do own SF1 but hell if I know where the key is or even what modules I bought. $125 is steep but if things look good with bugs and such, Iíll pull the trigger

Thanks for breaking it down Elvis

Don't do it, bro. If you don't find the info in your account it is definitely worth dropping me a line. It doesn't take long for me to find someone's information and whatever time it takes is worth saving $90. We love money at Battlefront but we'd rather earn.

Iím trackiní....but I only owned SF1....none of the modules. But Iíll send an email to battlefront on the site and see what happens
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Ubercat on December 04, 2018, 06:55:46 PM
Looks like you guys are all having typical Battlefront style fun.  #:-)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Barthheart on December 04, 2018, 08:22:53 PM
This is how the Big Bundle upgrade works.

1. Download the CMSF2 Big Bundle Upgrade file (2GB)
2. Extract install files
3. Run installer
4. After installation, Run "Activate New Products" shortcut
5. Paste code that comes with CMSF2 Big Bundle upgrade purchase and activate
6. Run "Activate New Products" shortcut and paste code that came with CMSF1 base game. Activate.
7. Run "Activate New Products" shortcut and paste codes for CMSF1 modules. Activate.
    I did them in following order: Marines, British forces, Nato Forces
8. Run game and play. You should see the symbol for each installed module in the bottom right corner of the screen.

Why simple instructions like this could not be provided ANYWHERE by Battlefront is beyond my understanding.

You've got a 4K monitor right JH? How does the game look?
I just downloaded the demo for SF2 and it really really looks like shit on my 4K monitor with all the graphics options turned all the way up... Plays fine and no lag but man it's just awful graphics quality.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 04, 2018, 08:40:19 PM
It looks a lot like the original CMSF. Dark and pretty clunky. My biggest issue is that in desktop resolution, and I'm not even sure what that means, I have some trouble reading text. The next best option is 1280 x 960, which just looks a little silly.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: jomni on December 04, 2018, 11:11:02 PM
Looks like you guys are all having typical Battlefront style fun.  #:-)

You mean figuring out how things work?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: MikeGER on December 05, 2018, 12:21:17 AM
asking out of curiosity before jumping into the process and before placing the order for the update

i have found my e-Licence for Marines, British, and Nato ..so far so good  O0
but my CMSF is a German boxed CD version from Paradox Interactive

Elvis, so what to do now.

...fun fact i found the purchase receipt from the brick and mortar store inside the box, ...go figure!
its a little bleached out but i am still able to proved even that, beside a picture of the CD in its box, manual and some folded map of Syria 
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: WargamerJoe on December 05, 2018, 02:10:39 AM
It looks a lot like the original CMSF. Dark and pretty clunky. My biggest issue is that in desktop resolution, and I'm not even sure what that means, I have some trouble reading text. The next best option is 1280 x 960, which just looks a little silly.

AFAIK "Desktop Resolution" means it will set to whatever native resolution your screen normally operates at. So if you have a 4K monitor it'll be [really high number] x [another really high number], which may be why the text is really small - they haven't quite scaled everything up properly on the UI for large res's.

My monitor is 1920 x 1080 (which is what 'desktop resolution' would mean for me specifically, and anyone with a monitor of the same size) and I'm surprised there isn't an option for that - 1280 x 960 seems very low for a game released in 2018.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: JudgeDredd on December 05, 2018, 03:59:25 AM
It looks a lot like the original CMSF. Dark and pretty clunky. My biggest issue is that in desktop resolution, and I'm not even sure what that means, I have some trouble reading text. The next best option is 1280 x 960, which just looks a little silly.
lol - I'd wonder at all even if the game had updated and I wasn't actually playing the original if that as the case. I presume it says it's the new version?

When I played the demo, it didn't look to me like they'd fixed the awful shadows issue that's been around since forever...and that really played havoc with my eyes.

Also - JH mentioning it looks the same as SF1...sorry but as much as I loved these games - and CMSF with all it's modules was my favourite - I just cannot for the life of me be arsed to go through what seems like a fairly simple process but in reality I imagine will be a f***ing nightmare. Anytime I've ever had to deal with these games validation bollox, I've been tearing my hair out.

Enjoy  :bd:
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Barthheart on December 05, 2018, 04:26:01 AM
It looks a lot like the original CMSF. Dark and pretty clunky. My biggest issue is that in desktop resolution, and I'm not even sure what that means, I have some trouble reading text. The next best option is 1280 x 960, which just looks a little silly.

Yep, the same for me.  :(
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 05, 2018, 04:59:15 AM
It looks a lot like the original CMSF. Dark and pretty clunky. My biggest issue is that in desktop resolution, and I'm not even sure what that means, I have some trouble reading text. The next best option is 1280 x 960, which just looks a little silly.

AFAIK "Desktop Resolution" means it will set to whatever native resolution your screen normally operates at. So if you have a 4K monitor it'll be [really high number] x [another really high number], which may be why the text is really small - they haven't quite scaled everything up properly on the UI for large res's.

My monitor is 1920 x 1080 (which is what 'desktop resolution' would mean for me specifically, and anyone with a monitor of the same size) and I'm surprised there isn't an option for that - 1280 x 960 seems very low for a game released in 2018.

Yeah. Thatís what it means with 1st world developers, but apparently not with this 3rd world stuff. LoL. I can assure you, this is not 4K and the problem isnít that the text is too small, itís that itís ďfuzzyĒ. Strange. Despite the strange resolution and lack of enhancement, I think the game still looks decent and I do think I notice some subtle changes, but itís certainly not a reason for someone to buy the game.

Iím enjoying it so far and despite the confusion with licensing, having one file for the entire game is definitely preferable to multiple disks and downloads. The installation isnít inherently difficult. Itís  only made so due to battlefrontís failure to provide clear instructions which I can only assume, at this point, is purposeful. The only company I know of that seems to get off on torturing itís customers.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on December 05, 2018, 08:05:44 AM
Iím enjoying it so far and despite the confusion with licensing, having one file for the entire game is definitely preferable to multiple disks and downloads. The installation isnít inherently difficult. Itís  only made so due to battlefrontís failure to provide clear instructions which I can only assume, at this point, is purposeful. The only company I know of that seems to get off on torturing itís customers.

Software engineers are the absolute worst at writing instructions - which is why industry employs technical writers. BFC is way too small to employ technical writers, or perhaps some pride of ownership also prevents them from finding volunteers to do it.

I remember the CMMOS that Gorden Molek came up with back in the CMX1 days. It was a batch file thingy that let you swap graphics mods in and out of the game without having to fool around with the Windows program file folders, backing up bmp files, etc. It was a straight forward little application but the instructions presumed a bunch of technical knowledge on the part of the reader and made things seem more complicated than they were.

So I don't know if BFC does it deliberately, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say that their poor writing just comes honestly by them - but that isn't unusual either for software.

As for the game itself, it's funny - this is the only one that I actually participated in the building of, and it may be the first release (other than Afghanistan and Touch, which I don't consider 'mainstream BFC' products) that I haven't either preordered or bought after the fact. Mildly tempted, but focusing on Christmas right now and buying for others. I'll be watching the thread with interest. Beyond the tech nightmares, I'm curious to see how the play has changed.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 05, 2018, 08:11:05 AM
^I get that, and there is probably some truth to it. However, it took me literally 30 seconds to write this:

Quote
This is how the Big Bundle upgrade works.

1. Download the CMSF2 Big Bundle Upgrade file (2GB)
2. Extract install files
3. Run installer
4. After installation, Run "Activate New Products" shortcut
5. Paste code that comes with CMSF2 Big Bundle upgrade purchase and activate
6. Run "Activate New Products" shortcut and paste code that came with CMSF1 base game. Activate.
7. Run "Activate New Products" shortcut and paste codes for CMSF1 modules. Activate.
    I did them in following order: Marines, British forces, Nato Forces
8. Run game and play. You should see the symbol for each installed module in the bottom right corner of the screen.

Why simple instructions like this could not be provided ANYWHERE by Battlefront is beyond my understanding.

I do have an advanced post-collegiate degree, but I don't think it is really necessary to compose basic simple instructions.

What BF should have done is require the customer to input his serial number for the original game and modules at the time of purchase. Then just issue a new code with the upgrade pack. This would verify that the customer owned the CMSF1 titles and therefore eligible for the upgrade, and be more convenient so that the user does not need to put in every code each time the game is installed. But again, that may be too logical for a software engineer. hehe  :))

By the way Michael...I think you should, in fact, get this. I do believe it would be worthwhile for you and the community would benefit from your feedback and insight, especially your opinion on how CMSF2 is enhanced over the original.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on December 05, 2018, 09:23:28 AM

I do have an advanced post-collegiate degree, but I don't think it is really necessary to compose basic simple instructions.

What BF should have done is require the customer to input his serial number for the original game and modules at the time of purchase. Then just issue a new code with the upgrade pack. This would verify that the customer owned the CMSF1 titles and therefore eligible for the upgrade, and be more convenient so that the user does not need to put in every code each time the game is installed. But again, that may be too logical for a software engineer. hehe  :))

By the way Michael...I think you should, in fact, get this. I do believe it would be worthwhile for you and the community would benefit from your feedback and insight, especially your opinion on how CMSF2 is enhanced over the original.

I have a BA in Communications, I can definitely feel you. It is painful to see people communicate poorly after you've been educated on ways not to...

I appreciate the kind words. Being brutally honest, I wasn't really that engaged with the CMSF beta team when I was on it. I enjoyed creating the scenarios that I worked on and was gratified to see them published. I worked hard on it and was frustrated by some the roadblocks and friction on the beta team. But - Stryker teams in a fictional near-future wasn't something I could really sink my teeth into.  I was really just marking time because my real interest was the World War II era, and having gotten onto the beta team, figured I could ride out the CMSF stuff until we started working on Normandy. I wasn't alone in that feeling, and at least one other beta member confided to me that he was doing exactly the same thing.

So, not sure if I could really do a useful compare/contrast as I really never 'got' the nuances of that era. Aside from the subject matter being a big 'meh', I thought the game relied too much on asymmetrical victory conditions because I didn't find the Syrians competitive. When you have a Stryker that can drown an infantry position with its grenade launcher and anti-aircraft cannon, I just didn't see the attraction. Bear in mind I prefer infantry stuff anyway, it's the same in ASL - I would rather play a vanilla infantry company against another one. But CMSF had such a poorly detailed infantry model that was no fun. As I recall the very first build didn't even have hand to hand combat, coupled with the poor pathfinding and the very vague "action spots", I just didn't find it much fun.

I do understand the engine has changed in many ways and infantry is probably more engaging now. I'm looking forward to the discussions here as I'm sure others will have a much better grasp of the compare/contrast than I would be able to do. I hope some of you will be posting links to the other reviews - Tim Stone, et al, as I'm curious on their take too.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Ubercat on December 05, 2018, 09:24:45 AM
Looks like you guys are all having typical Battlefront style fun.  #:-)

You mean figuring out how things work?

Figuring out how things work can be fun sometimes, when there's a point to it. Complexity for it's own sake is a turn off for me. Matrix/Slitherine have a vastly simpler system even when you don't use their Steam keys. They don't appear to be on the verge of bankruptcy, despite all the dishonest, thieving wargamers that Battlefront is afraid of.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 05, 2018, 09:27:53 AM
Looks like you guys are all having typical Battlefront style fun.  #:-)

You mean figuring out how things work?

Figuring out how things work can be fun sometimes, when there's a point to it. Complexity for it's own sake is a turn off for me. Matrix/Slitherine have a vastly simpler system even when you don't use their Steam keys. They don't appear to be on the verge of bankruptcy, despite all the dishonest, thieving wargamers that Battlefront is afraid of.

A learning curve for playing a game is reasonable. A learning curve for installing a game is not.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on December 05, 2018, 12:53:14 PM
Looks like you guys are all having typical Battlefront style fun.  #:-)

You mean figuring out how things work?

Figuring out how things work can be fun sometimes, when there's a point to it. Complexity for it's own sake is a turn off for me. Matrix/Slitherine have a vastly simpler system even when you don't use their Steam keys. They don't appear to be on the verge of bankruptcy, despite all the dishonest, thieving wargamers that Battlefront is afraid of.

We're always to looking to improve and have done a lot in the direction over the past few years. All-in-one installer and a less sensitive DRM to name a couple off the top of my head. No system is likely to ever be perfect I'm afraid and I only chime in because of the part I made bold. All software for sale has some kind of anti-piracy system. Some better than others. Some people are just more comfortable with/used to than others. But after years and years on the Tech Support side it never ceases to amaze me the amount of theft of intellectual property there is out there. Got a funny one just yesterday. He was having trouble with his key and downloading after having been away from the game for a while. Said the site he purchased it from was no longer active. When I asked what site he gave me a name (one I had never heard of) and said that he had purchased the "bundle" below for $29!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote
Serial Numbers

BUNDLE 1 - This is my bundle

Application Name Email

LIMBO 

Serial: 

Civilization V

Serial: 

Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare
Serial: 

And Yet It Moves 

Serial: Download

Company of Heroes: Complete 

Serial: 

Combat Mission: Battle for Normandy 

Serial:

I deleted the email address and license keys from his email  before posting here but the Normandy key was an actual key....so I gotta assume the others are too. $29 for all of that! Said his son had purchased it. We may not like anti-piracy software but it is a real issue. I see stuff like this on an average of once a week or so. This was an easy one to locate because it came in yesterday and was easy to find.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 05, 2018, 01:05:13 PM
The debate isn't over DRM and the need for anti-piracy measures. I don't think anybody would argue with you that this is a serious problem for publishers and developers. But this really just shifts the argument away from the very poor model that Battlefront uses and continues to use in one form or another. Yes, it has undoubtedly improved, but the communication and the effort (or lack thereof) to provide instructions to the customers has not. There is no excuse for not providing basic clear instructions to the customer for the licensing, especially given the system's confusing history. No instructions in the readme. No instructions in the installation pop-up. No instructions on the email with the purchase. The instructions that are on the website (which you posted a few pages up in this thread) are nearly incoherent and just create more confusion.

This is my beef.

Fortunately, these are not the kinds of frustrations that keep most gamers like us away. We will weather these storms in order to play these kinds of games, which are few and far between.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Philippe on December 05, 2018, 03:00:36 PM
I am not a member of the anti-DRM tinfoil hat brigade.

But if I drop a hundred dollars on a shiny new toy, I expect it to be hassle free.

I loved CMBO, CMBB, and CMAK, and the experience went a long way towards shaping my thinking about how a computer wargame should and should not work.

But every time I clear enough time and mental space to take the plunge into CMBN, I start hearing mini-horror stories about different kinds of aggravation.

If it were a twenty dollar game I would be inclined to just shrug it off, buy the game, and not really care if something funky were to happen.

But once a game crosses the hundred dollar line I insist on a premium product.

In the old days I knew that if something weird happened I could always send Mad Matt an e-mail and everything would get straightened out.

But that doesn't seem to be an option these days, and everything I hear about Steve's latest pearls of wisdom reminds me too much of a small business owner who only hears what he wants to hear because he fires anyone who disagrees with him.

I have enough free sources of aggravation as it is, so why would I want to spend a hundred bucks for another one?

(I have similar conversations with myself about Kevin Zucker and Operational Studies Group, though I will admit to having taken the plunge once or twice).
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: chris merchant on December 05, 2018, 03:05:22 PM
if text is blurry disable FXAA in your video card settings.

Desktop resolution = the resolution your screen is currently set to.

It looks a lot like the original CMSF. Dark and pretty clunky. My biggest issue is that in desktop resolution, and I'm not even sure what that means, I have some trouble reading text. The next best option is 1280 x 960, which just looks a little silly.

Yep, the same for me.  :(
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on December 05, 2018, 05:09:03 PM
I am not a member of the anti-DRM tinfoil hat brigade.

But if I drop a hundred dollars on a shiny new toy, I expect it to be hassle free.

I loved CMBO, CMBB, and CMAK, and the experience went a long way towards shaping my thinking about how a computer wargame should and should not work.

But every time I clear enough time and mental space to take the plunge into CMBN, I start hearing mini-horror stories about different kinds of aggravation.

If it were a twenty dollar game I would be inclined to just shrug it off, buy the game, and not really care if something funky were to happen.

But once a game crosses the hundred dollar line I insist on a premium product.

In the old days I knew that if something weird happened I could always send Mad Matt an e-mail and everything would get straightened out.

But that doesn't seem to be an option these days, and everything I hear about Steve's latest pearls of wisdom reminds me too much of a small business owner who only hears what he wants to hear because he fires anyone who disagrees with him.

I have enough free sources of aggravation as it is, so why would I want to spend a hundred bucks for another one?

(I have similar conversations with myself about Kevin Zucker and Operational Studies Group, though I will admit to having taken the plunge once or twice).

Hey!?!? What am? Chopped liver?

Although, seriously, I think even the most harsh critics of various aspects of BFC games would say that whenever they've needed help with something I respond quickly and get things taken care of. I take a great deal of pride on it.

I also miss Matt. We chat on the Facebooks from time to time.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Barthheart on December 05, 2018, 05:44:53 PM
if text is blurry disable FXAA in your video card settings.
Ö.

There is no FXAA setting in the options menu in SF2. If you mean I have to hunt for it in my video card settings and turn it off for this game only then forget it....  :idiot2:
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: chris merchant on December 05, 2018, 08:03:05 PM
Quote
turn it off for this game only then forget it....  :idiot2:

Just trying to help.  If you can't be bothered going into your nvidia settings to make a quick change then I doubt I'm the idiot here.

But you should definitely stop bagging CM games when it's your hardware drivers at fault.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 05, 2018, 08:26:18 PM
Quote
turn it off for this game only then forget it....  :idiot2:

Just trying to help.  If you can't be bothered going into your nvidia settings to make a quick change then I doubt I'm the idiot here.

But you should definitely stop bagging CM games when it's your hardware drivers at fault.

Chris, your advice is appreciated.

That being said, nobody accused you of being an idiot, but since we are talking about your intelligence, its not very wise to insinuate that somebody else is, simply because they do not want to change nvidia settings to get a single game to run properly.

It is certainly reasonable to feel that way, and that is Barthheart's prerogative.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: chris merchant on December 05, 2018, 08:30:59 PM
the icon at the end of the poster's comment is named 'idiot2'.

There is nothing resembling a smiley in the poster's comment therefore my comment stands.

The door has no chance of hitting me...
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 05, 2018, 08:35:38 PM
the icon at the end of the poster's comment is named 'idiot2'.

There is nothing resembling a smiley in the poster's comment therefore my comment stands.

The door has no chance of hitting me...

I changed my mind...you may actually be, an idiot.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Boggit on December 05, 2018, 09:00:57 PM

Although, seriously, I think even the most harsh critics of various aspects of BFC games would say that whenever they've needed help with something I respond quickly and get things taken care of. I take a great deal of pride on it.

I can attest to that. O0

Whenever I have had an issue with the games/licensing etc, Elvis has ALWAYS responded quickly (usually within 24hours) and has been both supportive and practical with his help. That is my experience with BFC support.

My own view arising from any issues I've had is that the help Elvis provides is generally far better than many larger companies with much greater resources available to support their products. My $0.02.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on December 05, 2018, 10:32:03 PM
if text is blurry disable FXAA in your video card settings.
Ö.

There is no FXAA setting in the options menu in SF2. If you mean I have to hunt for it in my video card settings and turn it off for this game only then forget it....  :idiot2:

There is another possibility here. You guys seem to be talking about some seriously outfitted game machines, so it may not apply,  but I figure I should mention it anyway since it is the only time I have seen blurry text as an issue. Almost all laptops come with an Intel integrated video card, regardless of whether or not they have a dedicated card. If a laptop has a dedicated card, like a GeForce card, it will sometime try to run the game on the Intel card instead. The laptop that I use to play the games does. I go into NVIDIA Control Panel and set it to run on high performance graphics to make the laptop run on the GeForce card and the blurry text goes away.  A bugger is that half of the time when Windows does an update it reverts back and I have to reset it.

Figured I'd mention it because that is the only case of blurrytext that I have come across. Especially so if the rest if the game looks normal.

(Stepping away and covering my head so that I can avoid the slings and arrows for voicing a comment that is intended to be helpful only to be inundated with "any game that makes me do that sux" kind of comments.)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on December 06, 2018, 03:30:30 AM
although itís great that elvis provides decent support to people, i think the point is that battlefront should make things easier and more clear so people donít have to contact support all the time. the best company support department is the one you donít need to contact often especially for routine things like installing and playing a game.

when our company receives a lot of questions on the same topic, they donít acknowledge themself fir great support, instead they are charged to work with the product owner to make things better to reduce future support calls.  in battlefront case, they donít appear to care about the customer experience so they make no changes or provide long arguments as to why they shouldnít change.

so when the support department (elvis) starts convincing the product owner to make changes to lessen the need for support at all, then i will heap praise on how good support is:)

with that said, i do appreciate that elvis does his best under the circumstances...
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Yskonyn on December 06, 2018, 03:56:53 AM
It would sure make Elvis' life a lot easier!  ;D
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Tuna on December 06, 2018, 04:51:47 AM
the icon at the end of the poster's comment is named 'idiot2'.

There is nothing resembling a smiley in the poster's comment therefore my comment stands.

The door has no chance of hitting me...

I don't 'read' smiley icons before clicking them.. just click the one that looks good, that icon to me means 'this is crazy'. Barth is saying it is crazy to have to go and change a cards setting for something like this. I don't take Barth as the type of person that would call someone an "Idiot".
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 06, 2018, 05:05:54 AM
if text is blurry disable FXAA in your video card settings.
Ö.

There is no FXAA setting in the options menu in SF2. If you mean I have to hunt for it in my video card settings and turn it off for this game only then forget it....  :idiot2:

There is another possibility here. You guys seem to be talking about some seriously outfitted game machines, so it may not apply,  but I figure I should mention it anyway since it is the only time I have seen blurry text as an issue. Almost all laptops come with an Intel integrated video card, regardless of whether or not they have a dedicated card. If a laptop has a dedicated card, like a GeForce card, it will sometime try to run the game on the Intel card instead. The laptop that I use to play the games does. I go into NVIDIA Control Panel and set it to run on high performance graphics to make the laptop run on the GeForce card and the blurry text goes away.  A bugger is that half of the time when Windows does an update it reverts back and I have to reset it.

Figured I'd mention it because that is the only case of blurrytext that I have come across. Especially so if the rest if the game looks normal.

(Stepping away and covering my head so that I can avoid the slings and arrows for voicing a comment that is intended to be helpful only to be inundated with "any game that makes me do that sux" kind of comments.)

Iím playing on an i7 with 32 gb ram and a 1080ti. Itís not old. Itís nearly top of the line.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Philippe on December 06, 2018, 09:51:05 AM
I am not a member of the anti-DRM tinfoil hat brigade.

But if I drop a hundred dollars on a shiny new toy, I expect it to be hassle free.

I loved CMBO, CMBB, and CMAK, and the experience went a long way towards shaping my thinking about how a computer wargame should and should not work.

But every time I clear enough time and mental space to take the plunge into CMBN, I start hearing mini-horror stories about different kinds of aggravation.

If it were a twenty dollar game I would be inclined to just shrug it off, buy the game, and not really care if something funky were to happen.

But once a game crosses the hundred dollar line I insist on a premium product.

In the old days I knew that if something weird happened I could always send Mad Matt an e-mail and everything would get straightened out.

But that doesn't seem to be an option these days, and everything I hear about Steve's latest pearls of wisdom reminds me too much of a small business owner who only hears what he wants to hear because he fires anyone who disagrees with him.

I have enough free sources of aggravation as it is, so why would I want to spend a hundred bucks for another one?

(I have similar conversations with myself about Kevin Zucker and Operational Studies Group, though I will admit to having taken the plunge once or twice).

Hey!?!? What am? Chopped liver?

Although, seriously, I think even the most harsh critics of various aspects of BFC games would say that whenever they've needed help with something I respond quickly and get things taken care of. I take a great deal of pride on it.

I also miss Matt. We chat on the Facebooks from time to time.

I have absolutely no doubt that you would resolve any issue that I had quickly and efficiently, provided that it fell on the right side of current policy.

That proviso is what makes me uncomfortable. 

Small business owners often think they are unaccountable tin gods, and I really don't like the tone and implication of some of the pronouncements that have come from one of the principals of your company over the last few years.  It's not merely a question of putting a muzzle on Steve:  that management could ever have thought that way is unheimlich and somewhat disturbing.

And this aside from the question of whether you should experience any issues if you pay a premium price.

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: jomni on December 06, 2018, 04:07:19 PM
if text is blurry disable FXAA in your video card settings.
Ö.

There is no FXAA setting in the options menu in SF2. If you mean I have to hunt for it in my video card settings and turn it off for this game only then forget it....  :idiot2:

There is another possibility here. You guys seem to be talking about some seriously outfitted game machines, so it may not apply,  but I figure I should mention it anyway since it is the only time I have seen blurry text as an issue. Almost all laptops come with an Intel integrated video card, regardless of whether or not they have a dedicated card. If a laptop has a dedicated card, like a GeForce card, it will sometime try to run the game on the Intel card instead. The laptop that I use to play the games does. I go into NVIDIA Control Panel and set it to run on high performance graphics to make the laptop run on the GeForce card and the blurry text goes away.  A bugger is that half of the time when Windows does an update it reverts back and I have to reset it.

Figured I'd mention it because that is the only case of blurrytext that I have come across. Especially so if the rest if the game looks normal.

(Stepping away and covering my head so that I can avoid the slings and arrows for voicing a comment that is intended to be helpful only to be inundated with "any game that makes me do that sux" kind of comments.)

Iím playing on an i7 with 32 gb ram and a 1080ti. Itís not old. Itís nearly top of the line.

 It a bummer to fiddle with card settings for just a specific game though.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mikeck on December 06, 2018, 08:41:27 PM
Iím too lazy. With Steam or Matrix, I buy, download and play. I just donít feel like messing with old license keys and then activating them one at a time. Just seems like the cost for buying SF2 without the prior games is REALLY high. So itís pay over $100 or spend time recovering and activating license keys.

Just like Graviream. Prior to Steam, I never bothered to play or upgrade from the base since installing patches and DLC was a pain. Now I just click ďinstallĒ when I get notified there is a patch. It just seems like maybe there is a simple way. Not to mention the nightmare I experienced paying for and installing license stuff for the engine upgrade.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Yskonyn on December 06, 2018, 10:57:50 PM
if text is blurry disable FXAA in your video card settings.
Ö.

There is no FXAA setting in the options menu in SF2. If you mean I have to hunt for it in my video card settings and turn it off for this game only then forget it....  :idiot2:

There is another possibility here. You guys seem to be talking about some seriously outfitted game machines, so it may not apply,  but I figure I should mention it anyway since it is the only time I have seen blurry text as an issue. Almost all laptops come with an Intel integrated video card, regardless of whether or not they have a dedicated card. If a laptop has a dedicated card, like a GeForce card, it will sometime try to run the game on the Intel card instead. The laptop that I use to play the games does. I go into NVIDIA Control Panel and set it to run on high performance graphics to make the laptop run on the GeForce card and the blurry text goes away.  A bugger is that half of the time when Windows does an update it reverts back and I have to reset it.

Figured I'd mention it because that is the only case of blurrytext that I have come across. Especially so if the rest if the game looks normal.

(Stepping away and covering my head so that I can avoid the slings and arrows for voicing a comment that is intended to be helpful only to be inundated with "any game that makes me do that sux" kind of comments.)

Iím playing on an i7 with 32 gb ram and a 1080ti. Itís not old. Itís nearly top of the line.

 It a bummer to fiddle with card settings for just a specific game though.

Well if one has an Nvidia card one can easily make profiles per game in the nvidia control panel.
Its a one time setup. Not hard at all.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on December 07, 2018, 03:14:52 AM
Iím too lazy. With Steam or Matrix, I buy, download and play. I just donít feel like messing with old license keys and then activating them one at a time. Just seems like the cost for buying SF2 without the prior games is REALLY high. So itís pay over $100 or spend time recovering and activating license keys.

Just like Graviream. Prior to Steam, I never bothered to play or upgrade from the base since installing patches and DLC was a pain. Now I just click ďinstallĒ when I get notified there is a patch. It just seems like maybe there is a simple way. Not to mention the nightmare I experienced paying for and installing license stuff for the engine upgrade.

to be fair, people keep mentioning the game is over a $100...that is true if you buy all modules which you dont have to right away.  no different than any other games that have expansions and dlc....even graviteam and famously crusader kings which is way more if you buy everything.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Boggit on December 07, 2018, 11:29:47 PM
although itís great that elvis provides decent support to people, i think the point is that battlefront should make things easier and more clear so people donít have to contact support all the time. the best company support department is the one you donít need to contact often especially for routine things like installing and playing a game.

I agree. It's  a very fair point you make.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: MOS:96B2P on December 08, 2018, 08:46:11 AM
to be fair, people keep mentioning the game is over a $100...that is true if you buy all modules which you dont have to right away.  no different than any other games that have expansions and dlc....even graviteam and famously crusader kings which is way more if you buy everything.
[/quote]


This is a good point I hadn't thought of.  The price tag that often gets quoted is not just for CMSF2.  It is for CMSF2 base game plus the USMC Module, plus the UK Module, plus the NATO Module.  Remembering this helps to keep things in perspective. 
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Philippe on December 08, 2018, 08:52:50 AM
It's hard not to think in terms of CMBN bundle = CMBO. 
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Yskonyn on December 08, 2018, 10:53:22 AM
Anyone up for starting a CMSF2 PBEM scenario or QB?
Preferably not something too large, but with combined arms.
I cannot commit to a fixed turn submission due to my work so the pacing is probably slower than average.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: planetbrain on December 08, 2018, 09:46:19 PM
I was pleasantly surprised when installing CMSF2 big bundle. It went totally without a hitch & I only had to use the one activation key obtained with the big bundle purchase. I guess this is because I have all of 
CMSF1 still installed. Did breathe a sigh of relief that all went smoothly, though.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: jomni on December 08, 2018, 10:06:46 PM
So what's the verdict?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: planetbrain on December 08, 2018, 10:58:18 PM
Sorry, it will be a while before I get into CMSF2. Too many games. I wish everyone would stop putting out "must have" games for about 5 years. It's causing me attention deficit :crazy2:
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: IICptMillerII on December 09, 2018, 12:36:38 AM
It's not for everyone, and I understand the many reasons why. I also understand that I can be considered a biased source. I fell in love with CM a few years ago and have been a die hard fan ever since (though I've had my criticisms with it in the past, which I've already mentioned here) and I also luckily never had any of the technical issues that some have with CM.

That said, I'm having a stupid amount of fun with Shock Force 2. The fixed tac ai behavior for engine 4 is worth the price of admission by itself for me. (This will be applied to the rest of the games sometime soon.) All of the new features of engine 4 applied to Shock Force, plus the massive amount of content available (I have all the modules) easily makes this one of my favorite CM games, and certainly my favorite CM game in a modern setting.

I'm currently playing a PBEM  with a buddy of a modified version of the USMC scenario "The Shores of Tripoli" and we're both having a blast. I originally made the modified version a year ago in SF1 and we played through it then and had a lot of fun. It's really cool to see all of the improvements at work as we play through it a second time. So many quality of life improvements, such as having ammo counters instead of the obnoxious colored bars, all of the UI and command improvements, the tac ai improvements, amphibious capability for my Marine vehicles, the list goes on.

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Yskonyn on December 09, 2018, 02:03:13 AM
I was pleasantly surprised when installing CMSF2 big bundle. It went totally without a hitch & I only had to use the one activation key obtained with the big bundle purchase. I guess this is because I have all of 
CMSF1 still installed. Did breathe a sigh of relief that all went smoothly, though.

Same here. Only new key needed to unlock all in one go.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: jomni on December 09, 2018, 04:34:48 AM
Hi. How to purchase the upgrade bundle?

Nevermind. Found the Upgrades in a separate store section.

Ok so I just inputted one code that was given to me in the confirmation email.
I guess the store knows that I bought everything from the CMSF1 series.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: MikeGER on December 09, 2018, 12:06:01 PM
- repost -

I have found my e-Licence for Marines, British, and Nato ..so far so good  O0
but my CMSF is a German boxed CD version from Paradox Interactive

Elvis, so what to do now? how to apply for the discount ?

(fun fact: i found the purchase receipt from the brick and mortar store inside the CD case, ...go figure)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Yskonyn on December 09, 2018, 12:38:37 PM
Open a ticket Mike. Youíll get sorted quicker.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: MOS:96B2P on December 09, 2018, 12:50:17 PM
I was pleasantly surprised when installing CMSF2 big bundle. It went totally without a hitch & I only had to use the one activation key obtained with the big bundle purchase. I guess this is because I have all of 
CMSF1 still installed. Did breathe a sigh of relief that all went smoothly, though.

Same here, big bundle and no problem.  I'm so glad they went to the all in one installers.  Now let the scenarios and campaigns begin................

(https://i.imgur.com/XBGbPmKh.jpg)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mikeck on December 09, 2018, 03:09:11 PM
Iím confused. I thought the ďbig bundleĒ was for people who didnít own ANY of it. No SF1, no subs.....what do I get if I have never owned any shock force game but want SF2?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: jomni on December 09, 2018, 03:11:48 PM
Iím confused. I thought the ďbig bundleĒ was for people who didnít own ANY of it. No SF1, no subs.....what do I get if I have never owned any shock force game but want SF2?

I bought the $35 all-in-one upgrade. Just input the one license key provided in the email. Didn't even have to look up the old licenses.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mikeck on December 09, 2018, 05:02:36 PM
Iím confused. I thought the ďbig bundleĒ was for people who didnít own ANY of it. No SF1, no subs.....what do I get if I have never owned any shock force game but want SF2?

I bought the $35 all-in-one upgrade. Just input the one license key provided in the email. Didn't even have to look up the old licenses.

?? So you never owned SF1 or any modules and you only paid $35 to get SF2? I thought you had to have all the modules and SF1. Iím so confused. That would help....I donít need to play Brit or NATO forces
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: IronX on December 09, 2018, 05:25:30 PM
Yes, you need to own the original CMSF1 Big Bundle version to pay only $35 for the full upgrade package. The Big Bundle version includes the base game and all the modules. It sold for about $55, but is no longer available. Assuming you have it already installed, then you just enter one code for the upgrade. If, however, you are starting from scratch, you need to enter the original code first, then the upgrade code.

If you don't own CMSF1, and you want the latest version, then your only option is to buy CMSF2. There are various bundle options available that help reduce the price of the modules, including the CMSF2 Big Bundle ($125).
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: jomni on December 09, 2018, 05:58:46 PM
Iím confused. I thought the ďbig bundleĒ was for people who didnít own ANY of it. No SF1, no subs.....what do I get if I have never owned any shock force game but want SF2?

I bought the $35 all-in-one upgrade. Just input the one license key provided in the email. Didn't even have to look up the old licenses.

?? So you never owned SF1 or any modules and you only paid $35 to get SF2? I thought you had to have all the modules and SF1. Iím so confused. That would help....I donít need to play Brit or NATO forces

The store knows I own the whole set. So they probably looked it up and gave me the appropriate key to unlock everything

Another example. I own Black Sea and bought the engine 4 upgrade. The serial they gave only unlocks the main game as I didnít have the mission pack DLC
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on December 09, 2018, 06:03:08 PM
Iím confused. I thought the ďbig bundleĒ was for people who didnít own ANY of it. No SF1, no subs.....what do I get if I have never owned any shock force game but want SF2?

I bought the $35 all-in-one upgrade. Just input the one license key provided in the email. Didn't even have to look up the old licenses.

?? So you never owned SF1 or any modules and you only paid $35 to get SF2? I thought you had to have all the modules and SF1. Iím so confused. That would help....I donít need to play Brit or NATO forces

The store knows I own the whole set. So they probably looked it up and gave me the appropriate key to unlock everything

I certainly can be wrong, but don't think that is the case...I owned the whole set and had to put all three in.  Tried it with just the main and nothing worked.  Seems most posts point to needing all three at the official forums.  Maybe if people have the original CMSF installed during install (which I didn't have installed but owned) it somehow picks that up.     Not sure why for some people that would work, but as long as people get things working, I guess it doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: jomni on December 09, 2018, 06:06:48 PM
Beats me. At least for my case itís just one key. I played Canadians to test out so I know the DLCs are unlocked.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on December 09, 2018, 06:09:06 PM
One question I do have that I am not sure if I have seen an official answer....when Steve from BF gave an update a few months back, said the initial release of CMFS 2 would only have one of the campaigns complete out of all of them.  Did that happen?  Or because of the delay did they get them all converted?  It's strange that if they aren't completed, I would think it would be a note on the purchase page for potential buyers to know since not everyone reads the forums.  So I am not sure what state everything is actually in...anybody?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: IICptMillerII on December 09, 2018, 06:24:03 PM
One question I do have that I am not sure if I have seen an official answer....when Steve from BF gave an update a few months back, said the initial release of CMFS 2 would only have one of the campaigns complete out of all of them.  Did that happen?  Or because of the delay did they get them all converted?  It's strange that if they aren't completed, I would think it would be a note on the purchase page for potential buyers to know since not everyone reads the forums.  So I am not sure what state everything is actually in...anybody?

Task Force Thunder, the US Army campaign, and Semper Fi Syria, the Marines campaign, have been reworked with all enginge 4 improvements/features.

The British and NATO campaigns have not been reworked yet, but are currently being worked on and will be released as a free update when they are finished. However, you can still play the original NATO and British campaigns if you don't want to wait. There will be a few glitches in them, such as ditch trenches being replaced by wire fences, AI scripted plans being simplistic, and a lack of on map mortar/AA assets. I've actually played a fair bit of the German campaign in SF2 and even though it is not yet updated to the current standard, it is more than playable to me.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: planetbrain on December 10, 2018, 03:19:49 AM
Quote
I was pleasantly surprised when installing CMSF2 big bundle.
Sorry, I feel I need to correct. I meant the CMSF2 big bundle upgrade (purchased for $US35) installed with the one key.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Pete Dero on December 10, 2018, 03:37:07 AM
The store knows I own the whole set. So they probably looked it up and gave me the appropriate key to unlock everything

I don't think the store knows it, but I guess during the install process they look in the registry of your computer or in the DRM software to see what you have and what parts can be unlocked.
Was CMSF1 on your computer when you installed CMSF2 ?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on December 10, 2018, 03:49:00 AM
The store knows I own the whole set. So they probably looked it up and gave me the appropriate key to unlock everything

I don't think the store knows it, but I guess during the install process they look in the registry of your computer or in the DRM software to see what you have and what parts can be unlocked.
Was CMSF1 on your computer when you installed CMSF2 ?

i suspect this as well fir those that only had to input the new bundle key. 
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: trek on December 10, 2018, 06:12:38 AM
I own the whole set too, but I still had to input my original license keys for each module of the CMSF2 Big Bundle. The one-license key process seems to be hit-or-miss for some of us. The one-license key DID work for me a month ago when I reinstalled CMBN with all the modules using the master installer. So, go figure.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: jomni on December 10, 2018, 06:40:38 AM
The store knows I own the whole set. So they probably looked it up and gave me the appropriate key to unlock everything

I don't think the store knows it, but I guess during the install process they look in the registry of your computer or in the DRM software to see what you have and what parts can be unlocked.
Was CMSF1 on your computer when you installed CMSF2 ?

Clean. Never installed CMSF1 in this machine ever. Anyway looks like we have a process if the single license key method fails.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 10, 2018, 08:18:07 AM
As to the quality of the campaigns that have not been completely upgraded yet, I echo CptMiller's assessment. I've been playing through the British campaign and having a good time with it. I haven't noticed any obvious errors or glitches.

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on December 10, 2018, 04:29:43 PM
Good to know about the campaigns, thanks all.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 10, 2018, 09:08:30 PM
I seem to have a fratricide problem.

I'm almost more of a threat to my Marines than the Syrian army. In the second mission of the marine campaign, I had an F18 drop heavy ordnance near a building occupied by a recon team. I lost two marines as a result of this incident. I dont even think it was my fault. I had ordered airstrikes within the same urban area, but the hornet attacked a nearby vacant bunker and the explosion caused my loss. I did not perceive that the empty bunker would be a target, especially since it fell well outside of the target zone.

The next incident in the subsequent mission was a God damn disaster. I was assaulting a trench position and I ordered a long heavy pre attack bombardment with a pair of 155s. The occupying defenders panicked and broke, so I called a cease fire on the artillery. I sent a squad from 2nd plt F/2/6 into the trench,  but those shells kept falling. The anti personnel rounds pinned the squad and they just wouldnt stop coming down. I'm not sure if this is a bug. When it was all over, 8 marines were down.

I have a lot of trouble accepting casualties in this game. It really hits close to home. When its blue on blue...the frustration is even worse. War is hell, even on a computer.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: jomni on December 11, 2018, 12:48:35 AM
You need to preserve as much troops as possible in the campaign.
I remember having severely depleted squads in the later battles in the original Marines campaign.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: markh on December 11, 2018, 03:46:26 AM
I seem to have a fratricide problem.

I'm almost more of a threat to my Marines than the Syrian army. In the second mission of the marine campaign, I had an F18 drop heavy ordnance near a building occupied by a recon team. I lost two marines as a result of this incident. I dont even think it was my fault. I had ordered airstrikes within the same urban area, but the hornet attacked a nearby vacant bunker and the explosion caused my loss. I did not perceive that the empty bunker would be a target, especially since it fell well outside of the target zone.

The next incident in the subsequent mission was a God damn disaster. I was assaulting a trench position and I ordered a long heavy pre attack bombardment with a pair of 155s. The occupying defenders panicked and broke, so I called a cease fire on the artillery. I sent a squad from 2nd plt F/2/6 into the trench,  but those shells kept falling. The anti personnel rounds pinned the squad and they just wouldnt stop coming down. I'm not sure if this is a bug. When it was all over, 8 marines were down.

I have a lot of trouble accepting casualties in this game. It really hits close to home. When its blue on blue...the frustration is even worse. War is hell, even on a computer.

I am not sure how much credit you give to, or reliability you place on, author Jon Krakauer who wrote "Where Men Win Glory: The Odyssey of Pat Tillman".   He is cited in Wikipedia as claiming that 52% of casualties in the first Gulf War and 41% of casualties in the ongoing war in Iraq were due to "friendly fire".  Interestingly, he only attributes 13% of casualties in Afghan to "friendly fire".
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: smittyohio on December 12, 2018, 11:14:48 AM
I'm thinking about finally buying one of the WWII CM games, and would like some opinions... The Normandy game appeals the most to me, but I'm wondering if the scenarios and campaigns are better in the later ones since they had more experience with the tools and had more customer feedback.   Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: MOS:96B2P on December 12, 2018, 12:06:16 PM
I'm thinking about finally buying one of the WWII CM games, and would like some opinions... The Normandy game appeals the most to me, but I'm wondering if the scenarios and campaigns are better in the later ones since they had more experience with the tools and had more customer feedback.   Any thoughts?

The newer games also started out with AI triggers and AI area fire.  Also CMRT and CMFB have tank riders.  Having said that, CMBN has a lot more content and nationalities.  I like CM Fortress Italy since it has the longest time frame July 1943 to May 1944.  CMFI will get a module in the next year that will take it to the end of the war and add even more nationalities.  They all have advantages.  I would get what you are the most interested in.  For me it kind of depends what military book I'm currently reading.  If I'm reading about the east front I want to play Combat Mission Red Thunder, Operation Overlord CMBN, Operation Husky CMFI etc.... Watching the news makes me want to play a modern title.   ;D       
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: MOS:96B2P on December 12, 2018, 12:08:34 PM
Speaking of modern titles................... CM Shock Force 2 is taking up a lot of my time.

(https://i.imgur.com/1LGOiQWh.jpg)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 12, 2018, 12:44:25 PM
I'm finding some of the map designs and starting unit dispositions frustrating in CMSF2. Its not just this title, I suppose, but rather the modern titles.

Many of the maps feel like phone booths. There is very little opportunity for maneuver prior to contact. That is, they are spotted and come under lethal fire almost immediately. Its frustrating taking crippling losses that significantly reduce the fighting effectiveness of your force before you really have the opportunity to implement a plan, or even seek cover/concealment.

Its annoying when losses are taken not due to any tactical error of the player, but rather due simply to the nature of the map and the immediate terrain features in which your troops find them selves on at the start of a scenario.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: IronX on December 12, 2018, 01:33:00 PM
I feel your pain. I found the same thing with the latest set of scenarios/campaigns for CMBS. Some of them were very poorly designed. On more than one occasion I found the defending AI was given the vast majority of the map on set-up and a clear line of sight to the player's units as they entered the map. Those scenarios were very disappointing and make you wonder whether they were thoroughly tested before release.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: MOS:96B2P on December 12, 2018, 01:39:06 PM
Its annoying when losses are taken not due to any tactical error of the player, but rather due simply to the nature of the map and the immediate terrain features in which your troops find them selves on at the start of a scenario.

That is frustrating.  When it is a second party user made scenario you might expect to see that occasionally.  However, there is really no excuse for a scenario released with the game to have the force to map ratio off.  Or line of site into a setup zone.  The maximum map size was expanded after the original CMSF was released but still....  Just curious, what scenario had what type of problem?       
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 12, 2018, 02:15:28 PM
Its annoying when losses are taken not due to any tactical error of the player, but rather due simply to the nature of the map and the immediate terrain features in which your troops find them selves on at the start of a scenario.

That is frustrating.  When it is a second party user made scenario you might expect to see that occasionally.  However, there is really no excuse for a scenario released with the game to have the force to map ratio off.  Or line of site into a setup zone.  The maximum map size was expanded after the original CMSF was released but still....  Just curious, what scenario had what type of problem?       

Try one of the first two or three in the scenario list. One of them is, I believe, a German mechanized company of panzer grenadiers. They are in useless Fuchs in open terrain astride a highway, basically surrounded by a force having no shortage of ATGMs and BMPs in a superior elevated and urban position. 
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: rocketman on December 12, 2018, 02:53:18 PM
Scenario design has come a long way since SF1 was released and with this upgrade they have "translated" the scenarios as they were. Hopefully the community will update scenarios/campaigns to improve them and the new stuff will likely not suffer those drawbacks.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on December 12, 2018, 03:01:55 PM
I'm thinking about finally buying one of the WWII CM games, and would like some opinions... The Normandy game appeals the most to me, but I'm wondering if the scenarios and campaigns are better in the later ones since they had more experience with the tools and had more customer feedback.   Any thoughts?

I wonder if the slate of "official" scenario designers hasn't actually decreased over time, rather than increased. Not sure a lot of guys are building stuff unofficially either, but you can check the CM Scenario Depot website for those. I think Green-as-Jade also had a site for scenarios.

I don't know that BFC actually uses customer feedback as means of developing content. Not being snarky, but as someone who was briefly part of that world, I just don't think it worked that way as far as scenario design went. The main devs were usually nose deep in their own under the hood stuff and left the designers to their own devices. I don't recall a whole lot of collaboration. Possibly that has changed in the last 11 years, but during my brief window everyone was kind of scrambling to build their own stuff and might take a spin of one or two others in the playtesting, but it didn't seem like a lot of corporate knowledge being shared.

I just reinstalled CMFI again and took a look. I am translating a German history of the Heer 65th Division who fought at Anzio. I was therefore curious if the battles were well represented in CMFI. I found only one scenario on a brief looksee. It was by Jon Martina - whose stuff I tend to like. It was clear he did a map of the Aprilia area by trying to use the undetailed maps of the U.S. official history. After reading the detailed accounts in German (something he would obviously not have access to) I got a sense that the area was laced with irrigation ditches and streams - which the history makes clear you can't even see until you walk up to them (meaning a large scale map or even photos of the place wouldn't tell you they were there). His treatment of the area is all farmer's fields. No idea if his Anzio scenario is good as I didn't play it - it still can be, he's a good designer from what I can tell - but historical accuracy is only as good as your designer and I'm not sure where their stable is at for each title. George M can usually be counted on for painstaking detail, but it's such a laborious process building stuff in that editor, and his designs tend to be bigger, so his output is lower.

Also not sure what the turnover is - I seem to recall a lot of scenarios were actually uncredited, which was odd. Probably more of a quality control issue than anything, but I always liked to see who was designing the stuff I was playing.

A lot of scenario designers actually prefer the map building, which might explain the Master Maps that were touted for recent releases. I mapped out Ortona in CM:AK and so took a look at an Ortona map someone did for CMFI which required a lot more work due to the greater detail available. It wasn't bad, some stuff stands out, again, related to a level of research you might not expect from an average designers. Specifically the graveyard north of town in the case of Ortona - the actual graveyard was a serious of mausoleums, so basically one-story stone buildings. The CM mapper just threw a few simple headstones into it, which really does the actual terrain a disservice.

Point of all this rambling is that I would probably just go ahead and buy the title from the time period you enjoy the most, as I'm not sure there has been an increasing quality of the designs from early titles to later. Some of the ones I've enjoyed the most have come from the community via the depot - but that was the same with the original Combat Mission trilogy, too. You might want to look at the depot to see if the title you're thinking of buying has a lot of extras there, and you can even read reviews of them.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: IronX on December 12, 2018, 04:47:49 PM
Speaking of good map design, I recall driving into the village of Stoumont in Belgium thinking how the terrain looked just like that in CM Final Blitz. It was almost surreal. I visited a number of other locations that are represented in the game, but that one stood out as the village hasn't changed significantly.

(https://i.imgur.com/QTh6IKx.jpg)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: MOS:96B2P on December 12, 2018, 05:20:01 PM
I'm pretty sure I have played some scenarios made by you Michael Dorosh............. I think Panzergeist is yours?  Very cool.   

Yes, George MC is still building scenarios and campaigns.  I have found all the scenarios and campaigns made by him very good.  I think his last independent release was the KG Von Schroif campaign?  It is available at the Scenario Depot III for CM Red Thunder.  There might also have been something else he did after that or maybe a REDUX of something.  Hard to keep track.  I know he is currently working on another new campaign which is also for CMRT. 

This campaign covers a short and sustained period of combat operations taking place over a period of less than 72 hours, in Poland, on the Eastern Front in early August 1944. Although fictional it is heavily based on actual events.
In the campaign you take the role of 1 Kompanie Commander Hauptmann Hans von Schroif, of the 3rd Panzer Divisionís (Known as the Berlin Bear division Ė etc.......

Combatintman continues to crank out scenarios based on real world operations.  To include Neptune Spear which he made for CM Shock Force.  All those independently made scenarios for Shock Force 1 still work in Shock Force 2.  A ton of content. 

So yes, looking at the Scenario Depot III is also a good idea.           
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: jomni on December 12, 2018, 06:22:45 PM
I figure that scenarios of CMSF1 were made to make the game really challenging as the AI sucked.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: MOS:96B2P on December 12, 2018, 07:10:35 PM
Speaking of good map design, I recall driving into the village of Stoumont in Belgium thinking how the terrain looked just like that in CM Final Blitz. It was almost surreal. I visited a number of other locations that are represented in the game, but that one stood out as the village hasn't changed significantly.

(https://i.imgur.com/QTh6IKx.jpg)

Now that is cool.  Its amazing what some designers can create in the editor.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Yskonyn on December 13, 2018, 01:00:57 AM
I always have lots of ideas for scenarios for CM.
But the tools have a pretty steep learning curve and the time it takes to create a map, generate AI plans and finish up is a BIG task.
I have deep respect for CM scenario designers! It must be like a hobby on its own.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: A Canadian Cat on December 13, 2018, 07:46:40 AM
I wonder if the slate of "official" scenario designers hasn't actually decreased over time, rather than increased. Not sure a lot of guys are building stuff unofficially either, but you can check the CM Scenario Depot website for those. I think Green-as-Jade also had a site for scenarios.

I don't know that BFC actually uses customer feedback as means of developing content. Not being snarky, but as someone who was briefly part of that world, I just don't think it worked that way as far as scenario design went. The main devs were usually nose deep in their own under the hood stuff and left the designers to their own devices. I don't recall a whole lot of collaboration. Possibly that has changed in the last 11 years, but during my brief window everyone was kind of scrambling to build their own stuff and might take a spin of one or two others in the playtesting, but it didn't seem like a lot of corporate knowledge being shared.
So, I am part of that team now and cannot make any official comments. All I will say is, I do not believe the number of people making official scenarios has decreased it certainly hasn't while I have been involved. All scenarios get more than one or two test runs. Scenario designers definitely do take comments to heart that are made on the BFC forums.

Now for something that I can comment on - own scenarios. One of which falls right into the issue that Jarhead0331 (http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=6) talked about - coming under fire right when the scenario starts. That should be an intentional choice. It is in Action on Lanzerath Ridge (part of CM Final Blitzkrieg) since it represents the beginning of the ambush that started the fighting in that area that day. This scenario depicts the action of a recon platoon that held up a German Battalion. In this case if the German forces were allowed to manoeuvre the platoon would have no chance of doing anything in game. So, I closely followed the first reckless assault the Germans made that day. You could argue that that means it is no fun  :) .
My point is that sometimes it is a design decision that has a justification. Personally I would not want to see that for more then a handful of scenarios so to address others we would have to discuss specific scenarios. I know when play testing my self I would give feedback that coming under fire during deployment or the initial moments is not desirable.
One of my other scenarios Opportunity Knocks from CM Black Sea has a huge amount of room to manoeuvre. Each choice has pluses and minuses (faster, slower, better cover, better sight lines) and you are free to choose any or all as the attacker - that is part of the fun. So, in general I support the desire to have choices as the attacker - and the defender too BTW.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: A Canadian Cat on December 13, 2018, 07:49:03 AM
I'm thinking about finally buying one of the WWII CM games, and would like some opinions... The Normandy game appeals the most to me, but I'm wondering if the scenarios and campaigns are better in the later ones since they had more experience with the tools and had more customer feedback.   Any thoughts?

<snip>I would get what you are the most interested in.
I completely agree with MOS:96B2P. There is so much content available the best starting place is the theatre you are most interested in.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: A Canadian Cat on December 13, 2018, 07:57:36 AM
I always have lots of ideas for scenarios for CM.
But the tools have a pretty steep learning curve and the time it takes to create a map, generate AI plans and finish up is a BIG task.
I have deep respect for CM scenario designers! It must be like a hobby on its own.
Someone mentioned master maps earlier - their existence is a direct result of feedback and a desire to make it easier for players to make scenarios. BFC know it is challenging to make scenarios. That is why the provide briefing templates - to give people a leg up on creating good graphics, why they created master maps - now you can totally skip map making if you want and why they commissioned a tutorial on scenario design - originally a series of forum posts (http://community.battlefront.com/topic/109190-the-sheriff-of-oosterbeek-%E2%80%93-a-scenario-design-daraar/) and now a PDF that ships with the game "A Scen Design AAR PDF Book".
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on December 13, 2018, 08:17:48 AM
It is in Action on Lanzerath Ridge (part of CM Final Blitzkrieg) since it represents the beginning of the ambush that started the fighting in that area that day.

I did a short video "preview" of the scens in CM:RT and CM:FB and while I didn't play many of them I did have occasion to open every scenario and screenshot the map. As I did so I was quickly impressed by the quality of the maps overall, which I should have mentioned before going into my examples of historical inaccuracies. I'll also add the quick battle maps are also very well done and provide some good flexibility to the game.

Lanzerath Ridge I remember in particular, I remember the heavy weapons on the gentle slope overlooking the road. The maps have come a long way from CMX1, particularly in the hands of the experienced designers who know some of the tricks for squeezing out that added bit of realism.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on December 13, 2018, 08:20:17 AM
I'm pretty sure I have played some scenarios made by you Michael Dorosh............. I think Panzergeist is yours?  Very cool.   


Yes, that is mine, I appreciate the comments. I can only claim enthusiastic amateur status, as Yskonyn points out, ideas are easier to come by than time to turn it into reality in the editor.

Quote
Yes, George MC is still building scenarios and campaigns.  I have found all the scenarios and campaigns made by him very good.  I think his last independent release was the KG Von Schroif campaign?  It is available at the Scenario Depot III for CM Red Thunder.  There might also have been something else he did after that or maybe a REDUX of something.  Hard to keep track.  I know he is currently working on another new campaign which is also for CMRT. 

This campaign covers a short and sustained period of combat operations taking place over a period of less than 72 hours, in Poland, on the Eastern Front in early August 1944. Although fictional it is heavily based on actual events.
In the campaign you take the role of 1 Kompanie Commander Hauptmann Hans von Schroif, of the 3rd Panzer Divisionís (Known as the Berlin Bear division Ė etc.......

Combatintman continues to crank out scenarios based on real world operations.  To include Neptune Spear which he made for CM Shock Force.  All those independently made scenarios for Shock Force 1 still work in Shock Force 2.  A ton of content. 

So yes, looking at the Scenario Depot III is also a good idea.         

Good news for the community, thanks.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on December 13, 2018, 08:27:08 AM
So, I am part of that team now and cannot make any official comments. All I will say is, I do not believe the number of people making official scenarios has decreased it certainly hasn't while I have been involved. All scenarios get more than one or two test runs. Scenario designers definitely do take comments to heart that are made on the BFC forums.

I always found that the disappointing part - you'd wait until after release to get feedback and then there would be a short period where people were playing the release stuff, quickly overshadowed by the aces in the community getting stuff up onto the depot. Since the release scenarios aren't listed there, there is no 'formal' feedback mechanism and the private stuff gets the benefit of public discussion (and the designer of course, the satisfaction of reading it).

Quote
My point is that sometimes it is a design decision that has a justification. Personally I would not want to see that for more then a handful of scenarios so to address others we would have to discuss specific scenarios. I know when play testing my self I would give feedback that coming under fire during deployment or the initial moments is not desirable.
One of my other scenarios Opportunity Knocks from CM Black Sea has a huge amount of room to manoeuvre. Each choice has pluses and minuses (faster, slower, better cover, better sight lines) and you are free to choose any or all as the attacker - that is part of the fun. So, in general I support the desire to have choices as the attacker - and the defender too BTW.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts here. With regards to early contact, player preferences vary as much as designer choices, meaning some people will be predisposed not to like whatever choice you make - that's not a bad thing, just reflect our tastes do vary. My personal reaction as a player is that having contact on turn 1 doesn't bother me if it is appropriate for the historical situation. I did a scenario set in Italy which was essentially an ambush, the challenge was for the ambushed player to get his reinforcements onto the map while the ambusher was preoccupied shooting up the turn 1 forces. But that was what happened in the real deal. Whether or not it worked, couldn't say, but it's easy for something like that to become a 'gimmick' and would be easy for that word to be applied to my scen. But - again, some people *like* gimmicks. I also get misty-eyed at long distance commercials despite knowing how the producer so blatantly manipulated me with sad music and just the right dialogue...
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: A Canadian Cat on December 14, 2018, 07:55:21 AM
Since the release scenarios aren't listed there, there is no 'formal' feedback mechanism and the private stuff gets the benefit of public discussion (and the designer of course, the satisfaction of reading it).
Good point. The internal scenarios have been played multiple times with internal feedback but you are spot on about the comments on the Scenario Depot. There is another source - the Blitz - over there the scenario list includes the stock scenarios and they encourage people to comment on scenarios that they play.

With regards to early contact, player preferences vary as much as designer choices, meaning some people will be predisposed not to like whatever choice you make - that's not a bad thing, just reflect our tastes do vary.
Very true.

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on December 14, 2018, 06:22:24 PM
So I broke down and bought CMSF2 today. I didn't bother with an upgrade, and I never did own NATO and really wanted the Canadians, so I just bought the CMSF2 + NATO bundle without bothering to upgrade. Activation worked fine, no hitches whatsoever. For a few dollars it wasn't worth the hassle of installing my old CMSF disc first.

You can still click through the Task Force Thunder campaign by "cease fire" if you want to play all the scenarios so I clicked through just to take a peek. I'd forgotten how much effort went into realistic briefings - not sure how much was changed from the original, but considering this is the very first ever CMX2 campaign it's a nice mix of different size scenarios and some pretty interesting and realistic write-ups. Good maps, but that was always the most fun of making a scenario, at least for me.

I was humbled to see my name on a couple of scenarios I had submitted for the original TF Thunder, they certainly didn't have to include them, so I'm grateful to see that. I hope Chris Nelson didn't have to pull too much hair out molding them into something he was able to use. I don't remember much about the originals now, but I think the Objective Normandy scenario had a tall cliff along the US left flank map edge, which looking back was really pretty tactically useless and did nothing in the game but possibly distract the US player who might think something was up there. If I'm remembering correctly then it looks like Chris has sensibly replaced that hill with a pond below surface level. As I recall I had built the map from a very lo-res Google Earth view of an actual stretch of road in Syria which is why the hill went there in the first place, but looking back it really doesn't make much sense from a game standpoint.

Favourite "opening scene" of the TF Thunder campaign (i.e. the first thing you see when the scenario starts):

(https://i.ibb.co/wBWDb3J/cmsf2screenie.jpg)

Nicely composed. :-)

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 16, 2018, 02:21:15 PM
Just having some fun...

http://grogheads.com/whatever/19785#more-19785 (http://grogheads.com/whatever/19785#more-19785)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on December 16, 2018, 04:11:15 PM
Just having some fun...

http://grogheads.com/whatever/19785#more-19785 (http://grogheads.com/whatever/19785#more-19785)

Thank you. That was a fun read. I probably haven't played that battle in a decade but it all came rushing back as I read it. I lost a LOT more than you did. It is a death sentence to be under my command. 

Thanks again
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Yskonyn on December 16, 2018, 04:42:43 PM
Heh  yeah, the old marine did well there!
I was thinking the exact same thing as Elvis when I read that article.  ;D
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: MikeGER on December 17, 2018, 01:26:52 AM
I would like to see that AAR continued through out the campaign  :D
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: JudgeDredd on December 17, 2018, 02:13:03 AM
Just having some fun...

http://grogheads.com/whatever/19785#more-19785 (http://grogheads.com/whatever/19785#more-19785)
Basic Training skill level - pffft. Call yourself a Marine  ;)

oops. Meant to add it was a good read  O0
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Destraex on December 17, 2018, 02:44:37 AM
Just having some fun...

http://grogheads.com/whatever/19785#more-19785 (http://grogheads.com/whatever/19785#more-19785)

Things that stuck out to me like dawgs you know what:

I see they still have not fixed Briefing sizes at larger or even standard 1080. That really sux. One of the things I am getting jack of these days is squinting at the screen to read tiny text. Hell at least I can hold a book close enough for comfort levels.

I also see trenches are still basically above ground sand bag emplacements.

Total Victory hah, smashing Saaar. How many times did you play through?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 17, 2018, 05:18:36 AM
I went out of my way to avoid mentioning any technical issues or impressions. That will all be covered in our review.

I played through the entire Task Force Campaign once or twice over the years since 2008. This was the only playnthrough for this feature. Prior to deciding to take some screenshots and do a write up I had one false start where I was very sloppy moving through the breach.

The key to minimizing casualties in these games is to be extremely methodical and patient, when the circumstances permit. Shoot at everything that moves and shoot at some things that donít move too just to be sure...do so repeatedly, and then shoot them all some more before advancing.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: A Canadian Cat on December 17, 2018, 07:44:01 AM
Activation worked fine, no hitches whatsoever.
Excellent - which is normal

For a few dollars it wasn't worth the hassle of installing my old CMSF disc first.
Just in case anyone reading this is worried - you do *not* have to install the old CMSF first to upgrade. All you need is your CMSF key (and the key for any modules you owned). After you install the new CMSF2 game you enter the old CMSF key and any old CMSF module key and then the new CMSF2 key (or keys if you bought other things). Anyone that cannot find their old key can contact support to track it down.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: JudgeDredd on December 18, 2018, 11:31:49 AM
Does anyone know why my Mark Mines command is disabled? What exactly do I have to do to get it enabled?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Pete Dero on December 18, 2018, 12:41:26 PM
Does anyone know why my Mark Mines command is disabled? What exactly do I have to do to get it enabled?

I think only engineers can mark minefields and the Mark Mines move order is only available when the engineers have actually detected the mines and are next to the minefield.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 18, 2018, 12:48:22 PM
It may be a bug. I think presently you need to drive over one before your engineers can mark them.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: IronX on December 18, 2018, 01:41:08 PM
Pete is right. Only engineers can mark mines. They need to detect them first - so move with caution. Once marked, other units can move through, albeit slowly.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: MOS:96B2P on December 18, 2018, 01:43:48 PM
As Pete Dero said the Mark Mines move order is only available after the mines have been detected and the engineers are next to the minefield. 

Below is my SOP for first safely locating a minefield and then marking the minefield.  Granted you must have a suspicion a minefield is in a certain area before you go through these steps.  This suspicion is typically provided by a hint in the briefing and/or likely choke points on the avenue of advance or sometimes by a detonation  :o.   

1. Split Team to divide Eng. squad into 2 teams. Generally no AT or Scout teams.
2. Provide security for the engineer teams.  Consider a smoke screen.
3. Give Engineer teams a 32m 360 Target Arc.
4. 1st Team Slow & identifies mines. 2nd Team Slow behind 1st & Mark Mines.
5. Slow 1st Team into suspected minefield with 15 second pauses every A/S.
6. 2nd Team Mark Mines when minefield is identified.
7. Slow for follow on forces to cross marked minefield. (Appx. 1min per A/S)
8. Buddy aid demo charges from casualties. 
Notes: 1) Place a waypoint every action spot.  2) Can mark from adjacent A/S. Appx. 2-3 minutes per A/S. A yellow sign with skull & crossbones = Marked A/S.


(https://i.imgur.com/37UHnhHh.jpg)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: JudgeDredd on December 18, 2018, 01:45:41 PM
It may be a bug. I think presently you need to drive over one before your engineers can mark them.
That was what I experienced. The only time the Mark Mines order became available was when one is found. The manual isn't clear on that. Somewhere I read said you can get them to mark mines within a "square" of the mine marker
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: MOS:96B2P on December 18, 2018, 02:59:22 PM
Yep.  If you put engineers next to an identified minefield (red signs) the Mark Mines command will be available.  They can then Mark Mines and the sign will change from red to off white/yellow, after marking, depending on the CM title (the Eng. will then crawl into the minefield after marking).  This movement can be cancelled allowing you to Mark Mines from an adjacent action spot.  I don't bother with this adjacent marking.  I just use the above SOP.   

Marking mines is only useful to help infantry to navigate a mixed or AP minefield.  Infantry will not set off AT mines so can walk across anyways.  Marking mines does not matter for vehicles.  They will almost always (like 95%) set off mines if the minefield is Marked or not.  AP mines will destroy soft skin vehicles and damage tracks on armor.  AT mines destroy all vehicles.       

Of course if you have Combat Mission Battle for Normandy you can actually clear mines if the scenario provides the tools. 

  (https://i.imgur.com/rjzOAJbh.jpg)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: jomni on December 18, 2018, 03:09:42 PM
What about IEDs?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: JudgeDredd on December 18, 2018, 03:19:29 PM
BOOM!

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4818/45650241934_d177dec812_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: JudgeDredd on December 18, 2018, 03:27:34 PM
Yep.  If you put engineers next to an identified minefield (red signs) the Mark Mines command will be available.
That's what I'm saying though. I had my engineers by the mine field and no matter their position, the Mark Mines was disabled. It only became available when a vehicle was hit...almost like the mines marker meant nothing until it was confirmed by a vehicle being blown.

Marking mines does not matter for vehicles.  They will almost always (like 95%) set off mines if the minefield is Marked or not.

Also - that might be ok for WWII, and I wasn't an engineer, but I'd imagine modern engineers can clear AT mines.

Looking at the first scenario in Task Force Thunder, I imagine the commander would be like "There's one way round this berm - and it's likely mined. Either give me AT Mine clearing kit or get ready to foot the bill for a couple of M1s"  :2funny:
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: JudgeDredd on December 18, 2018, 03:31:00 PM
As Pete Dero said the Mark Mines move order is only available after the mines have been detected and the engineers are next to the minefield. 

Below is my SOP for first safely locating a minefield and then marking the minefield.  Granted you must have a suspicion a minefield is in a certain area before you go through these steps.  This suspicion is typically provided by a hint in the briefing and/or likely choke points on the avenue of advance or sometimes by a detonation  :o.   

1. Split Team to divide Eng. squad into 2 teams. Generally no AT or Scout teams.
2. Provide security for the engineer teams.  Consider a smoke screen.
3. Give Engineer teams a 32m 360 Target Arc.
4. 1st Team Slow & identifies mines. 2nd Team Slow behind 1st & Mark Mines.
5. Slow 1st Team into suspected minefield with 15 second pauses every A/S.
6. 2nd Team Mark Mines when minefield is identified.
7. Slow for follow on forces to cross marked minefield. (Appx. 1min per A/S)
8. Buddy aid demo charges from casualties. 
Notes: 1) Place a waypoint every action spot.  2) Can mark from adjacent A/S. Appx. 2-3 minutes per A/S. A yellow sign with skull & crossbones = Marked A/S.


(https://i.imgur.com/37UHnhHh.jpg)
I only just saw this, so I'm going to try this on the first scenario again - see if it works.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: MOS:96B2P on December 18, 2018, 04:27:59 PM
What about IEDs?

Unfortunately IEDs cannot be safely located or marked.  However a triggerman needs to be close enough to the IED to detonate it.  Also the game AI (triggerman) needs to see OpFor in the kill zone to know to detonate.  So one of the best counters for an IED is smoke.  When going through a choke point or somewhere I think is a good spot for an IED I deploy smoke.  Even if the triggerman is still alive he can't see the unit moving through the kill zone so he does not detonate.  Depending on the ROE hosing down likely triggerman locations is also helpful.  Below is some general information on IEDs. 

In CMSF there are four sizes of IED: small, medium, large & huge. There are three types of IED: Wire 100m, 10% failure / Radio 300m, requires LOS to activate, 20% failure / Cell phone 600m, 10% failure. IED teams consist of the bomb and the triggerman.  To work the IED must be activated and the triggerman in range (if radio LOS also) and not panicked with an undamaged trigger device.  If this criteria is met when the triggerman observes OpFor enter the Action Spot (adjacent AS for huge or large device) the device will detonate.  (The triggerman will not detonate the IED unless he can spot OpFor next to it.)  An IED can be activated and detonated by any triggerman.  Example: A Wire triggerman can activate and/or detonate a cell or radio IED. 

Four sizes of IED:

 (https://i.imgur.com/8IC7HNDh.jpg)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: JudgeDredd on December 19, 2018, 12:01:10 AM
That technique didn't work at all. No mines were sighted and I lost two vehicles

Also - how do you do a 360 arc? I could only get a 180 arc
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Pete Dero on December 19, 2018, 02:18:49 AM
That technique didn't work at all. No mines were sighted and I lost two vehicles

I believe putting engineers next to the suspected minefield for a few minutes will make them detect the mines without somebody or something blowing up.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Yskonyn on December 19, 2018, 04:11:45 AM
That technique didn't work at all. No mines were sighted and I lost two vehicles

I believe putting engineers next to the suspected minefield for a few minutes will make them detect the mines without somebody or something blowing up.

Engineers need a few minutes to scan the area and spot mines.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: JudgeDredd on December 19, 2018, 04:26:55 AM
Are you saying you set them to Mark Mines and leave them there for a few minutes? If so, that won't work because the Mark Mines is disabled.

If you are saying leave them in-situ for a few minutes so they can "detect" a minefield and THEN you can set them to Mark Mines, then that makes sense and I haven't done that yet.

What I did do is create several points in/around where the map shows there are mines - all slow moving and had a pause of 15 seconds at each point. Not only did they detect nothing but the Mark Mines did not enable and only became enabled when a vehicle blew up.

If you're saying as I mentioned at the top of my post that you leave them sitting there and eventually they detect a minefield and they are then able to mark mines, then that sounds reasonable. But this all really, really needs to be in the manual. There's literally a couple of lines in a paragraph for marking mines and it doesn't mention the above...it simply says you put them near the mine field and get them to mark mines and it takes a few minutes for them to do so.

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Pete Dero on December 19, 2018, 06:08:05 AM
If you are saying leave them in-situ for a few minutes so they can "detect" a minefield and THEN you can set them to Mark Mines, then that makes sense and I haven't done that yet.

That should work (but the wiki doesn't mention it)

http://combatmission.wikia.com/wiki/Mine

http://combatmission.wikia.com/wiki/Mark_mines

Discovering Mines

Mines are always known to their owner. The other player may discover them during play.

Generally minefields are revealed only when one of their mines explodes. However, they can occasionally be discovered without losses by infantry moving through them (that is, moving into or out of the minefield's action spot). This is more likely when the infantry:

    are crawling or walking (and to a lesser extent, hunting)
    are engineers
    are experienced
    The minefield has already been discovered by another unit (e.g. by setting off a mine) [this info came from the manual -- not sure if it means anything]

For infantry, the chance of triggering a mine when traversing an action spot varies with the same factors mentioned above. However, the strongest factor seems to be the minefield strength -- infantry can move Quick across a field with only a few mines left. However, in full-strength minefields or those having only detonated a few mines, the chance of triggering a mine is quite high except for engineers. Even experienced infantry crawling will trigger a mine in an action spot more often than not.


Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: jomni on December 19, 2018, 07:18:31 AM
When I read the above post, I feel that it's a random chance with modifiers. So it may or may not happen all the time or the time to detect is variable... even with engineers.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: JudgeDredd on December 19, 2018, 08:40:12 AM
^ I'm good with that - a random chance of finding mines. But let the manual explain it. Otherwise you're left scratching your head wondering WTF you have to do to detect mines - or get the ability enabled to Mark Mines...or you're left thinking (as me and JH were) that it's a bug.

Just - document your shit.  :2funny: If there's a random chance there, go for it...but document it.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: MOS:96B2P on December 19, 2018, 10:41:09 AM
That technique didn't work at all. No mines were sighted and I lost two vehicles

Also - how do you do a 360 arc? I could only get a 180 arc

Sorry about that.  I took a look and think I may have found why.  In CMSF in addition to the three minefield types (AT, AP and mixed) there is also an IED minefield.  This IED minefield is not the wire, cell & radio IEDs I posted a screenshot of but seems to be a hard to detect AT minefield.  I suspect the scenario has these IED minefields in the gap in the berm and as you discovered my SOP does not work with type of minefield.  The scenario is part of a campaign so I can't easily open it in the editor or I would check.  Would need to de-compile the campaign etc. 

I tested the IED minefields and it took regular experienced engineers an average of seven minutes to detect the mines.  One team of engineers did not detect them after 30 minutes when I ended the test. They also seem to have only one AT mine in the minefield making it less likely you'll hit it.  Then once you do hit it that action spot minefield is neutralized.   

For a 360 degree target arc hold down the Shift key while making the arc.     
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: jomni on December 19, 2018, 03:34:25 PM
That technique didn't work at all. No mines were sighted and I lost two vehicles

Also - how do you do a 360 arc? I could only get a 180 arc

Sorry about that.  I took a look and think I may have found why.  In CMSF in addition to the three minefield types (AT, AP and mixed) there is also an IED minefield.  This IED minefield is not the wire, cell & radio IEDs I posted a screenshot of but seems to be a hard to detect AT minefield.  I suspect the scenario has these IED minefields in the gap in the berm and as you discovered my SOP does not work with type of minefield.  The scenario is part of a campaign so I can't easily open it in the editor or I would check.  Would need to de-compile the campaign etc. 

I tested the IED minefields and it took regular experienced engineers an average of seven minutes to detect the mines.  One team of engineers did not detect them after 30 minutes when I ended the test. They also seem to have only one AT mine in the minefield making it less likely you'll hit it.  Then once you do hit it that action spot minefield is neutralized.   

For a 360 degree target arc hold down the Shift key while making the arc.   

With scenarios lasting an hour, 30 minutes is too much. Might as well avoid it and move on or sacrifice a casualty to detect it.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: IICptMillerII on December 19, 2018, 04:26:36 PM
Enemy minefields have to be spotted by a unit before they can be marked. By spotted, I mean the individual action spot with the mine sign visible. Minefields can be spotted in 2 primary ways. The first is the mines are run over by infantry/vehicles. The second is by placing engineers close to the action spot you suspect might contain mines, and then waiting to see if the engineers discover anything. Whether or not the engineers discover anything is based on their soft factors (training) and ambient conditions (day/night, weather such as snow on the ground) It is possible for veteran engineers to never discover mines even if they are very close to them after waiting a long time, though that is less likely.

The more engineers in a squad, or the more engineers in the area looking for mines (stationary in/near the action spots you suspect to be mined) the faster you will be able to discover and then mark them. A squad of 9 engineers will mark a mined action spot faster than a team of 4 will.

A note about the first mission of Task Force Thunder: the breach teams are not technically engineers. They are breachers who have the mark mines capability, but their ability to spot mines and mark them is not as good as a proper engineer unit. Personally I wish a detachment of proper engineers were provided for the mission. As of right now, the best way to deal with the mined roadway is to move vehicles over one at a time, using the slow command. This reduces the chance that they will set off a mine, though it's not a guarantee. (As an additional note, once a minefield has been marked, you should also only cross it using the slow command. A marked minefield does not mean the mines have been removed, it just means the engineers have placed physical markers on the mines. A tank tearing through going 40mph likely won't see the individual markers, and even if it did, wouldn't have time to maneuver around them. This is why vehicles moving faster than slow over marked minefields are still likely to set off a mine)

In reality the mission would likely be supported by at the very least a tank with a mine plow, or more optimally an ABV. However none of these vehicles are in CM so the best we have currently are engineers, and we don't even get proper engineers for the mission. Hopefully in the future BFC release an engineering vehicle pack, but as far as I know there are no plans for that as of right now.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 19, 2018, 05:21:56 PM
Maybe this is something they will address in Combat Mission Shock Force 3?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on December 19, 2018, 05:28:33 PM
Maybe this is something they will address in Combat Mission Shock Force 3?

Hopefully my great-great-great-great grandchildren will be able to play it based on past release schedules:)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: IICptMillerII on December 19, 2018, 10:43:15 PM
Maybe this is something they will address in Combat Mission Shock Force 3?

Nah probably more like Shock Force 14, but it'll be worth the wait and DRM hassle!  :2funny:
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on December 20, 2018, 04:55:37 AM
Maybe this is something they will address in Combat Mission Shock Force 3?

Engineering tasks have been on a lot of customer want lists since 1999 - deliberate demolitions of bridges, removal of roadblocks, barbed wire clearance, foxhole digging. The conventional argument has been that some of those tasks are out of the scope of a tactical game, and I bought that argument when the longest CM games were about an hour, but with the ability to fight on huge maps with 4-hour time limits, seems odd not to have the ability to dig shell-scrapes or even full foxholes.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: demjansk1942 on December 20, 2018, 04:49:25 PM
I used to love the games, have original shock force but not upgrading
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Pete Dero on December 29, 2018, 10:54:20 AM
Yesterday I bought the $35 upgrade but couldn't run the game because it didn't accept my Gamersgate key for the base game.

Opened a ticket and received a new key that works in less than 24 hour (and in the weekend).


A happy customer  :bd:.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Tuna on December 30, 2018, 05:43:20 AM
You didn't have to buy the CMSF1 upgrade before the CMSF2 uprade?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Pete Dero on December 30, 2018, 06:31:45 AM
You didn't have to buy the CMSF1 upgrade before the CMSF2 uprade?

I already owned the complete SF1 package (all from the Battlefront store except the base game I had from Gamersgate).
The $35 upgrade is what turns CMSF1 into CMSF2.   I think the Gamersgate digital version I had was CMSF1 v 1.2.  No need for another upgrade, patched it for free to v 1.32.
Maybe it is different when you bought it on disc.

Activated the base game with my new key and used my Battlefront keys for the addons.

Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Tuna on December 30, 2018, 02:02:59 PM
No, I bought at GamersGate as well.. had to buy an 'upgrade' to get the other modules.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 30, 2018, 04:12:27 PM
Been playing a lot of CMSF2, CMFI, CMRT and CMBN, and what I'm finding is that in the WWII themed titles, my units seem to be breaking and running with a frustrating frequency. I've observed this behavior across several different scenarios involving multiple nationalities, but always involving well equipped and trained units with strong morale. This tends to happen when moving under fire and it also seems to happen once the unit arrives at the intended location; usually inside of a building, or at a position of cover that I intended to use as a base for fire. In other words, it typically does not happen on the way to the objective. They arrive, turn around and run away. 

Yes, the units are under fire and yes, they on some occasions took a casualty or two, but it still seems unusual that they would get to their objective and then leave the security of the position to get shot in the back. They take far heavier casualties when running away, then they do when running toward the objective, or when they are actually at the specified locale.  I do not observe the enemy AI reacting to fire this way.

Is it me? Am I doing something wrong? I feel like I am using relatively sound tactics and am not asking the troops to do anything out of the ordinary, aside from the usual orders to risk their lives for God and country.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: IronX on December 30, 2018, 05:00:14 PM
I've mainly been playing CMSF2, but it was one of the first things I noticed when my Marines broke and ran after one man got shot. It's frustrating to watch several men get shot in the back because of one or two casualties. This seems to happen much more frequently than it did in previous versions.

Also, I noticed that the squads in the game go through way more ammunition than before. I'm now having to resupply them by going into an IFV/APC to acquire more ammo.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 30, 2018, 05:47:27 PM
^besides being frustrating, itís also unrealistic. Marines donít break and run.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: JasonPratt on December 30, 2018, 06:03:27 PM
Except toward the enemy. HOORAH!!  :cowboy:
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: IronX on December 30, 2018, 07:31:48 PM
Exactly. They reacted more like I would expect from militia. Panicked troops also run in odd directions, at times closer to the enemy, which cannot be corrected by the player. It needs to be fixed. If they are going to run, they should probably pop smoke first and then head for cover.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: sandman2575 on December 30, 2018, 09:00:26 PM
The brittle infantry issue with troops breaking easily under heavy fire is by now a longstanding issue -- pretty sure it was introduced in the 4.0 engine, which is getting on 2 years old now.

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/124998-infantry-breaking-to-easily-in-40/ (http://community.battlefront.com/topic/124998-infantry-breaking-to-easily-in-40/)

There were reports of a patch 'on the way' but to my knowledge that patch was never released.

I do think it's a major problem -- endemic to all CMx2 modules that have the 4.0 engine upgrade, so not just Shock Force II, but Red Thunder, Battle for Normandy, etc. etc.  I've been playing a lot of Red Thunder of late, and it's the exact same issue. I'm just kind of putting up with it, but at some point it's going to prevent me from continuing.

Of course, if you search around the CMx2 forums, you will find the usual stalwarts who insist this is 'working as designed' and that it's 'more realistic' and so on. I personally think that's nonsense but reasoned debate has a way of breaking down very quickly over in them parts of the internets...


EDIT -- sorry JH, missed that you mentioned it's in all the titles, not just Shock Force. But in any event, very much just confirming that I'm seeing what you're seeing in terms of problematic infantry behavior.


Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: sandman2575 on December 30, 2018, 09:12:16 PM
A little more digging in the forums yields this from the devs, in regard to a patch to the 4.0 engine and specifically the infantry issue:

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/126860-update-on-engine-4-patches/ (http://community.battlefront.com/topic/126860-update-on-engine-4-patches/)

  "   5 minutes ago, IICptMillerII said:

    Thanks for the update! Sounds like summer is going to be quite the season of releases. Very much looking forward to it all!

    Can you elaborate at all on what the patch will be fixing/tweaking?

Oooo... good question!  Well, the one I can say for sure is fixed is the one you are most concerned with.  And that is TacAI behavior in relation to enemy fire and cover (in particular Fortifications).  What looked to be a fairly straight forward and binary problem instead turned out to be something that was very nuanced and difficult to pin down.  Sure, we made improvements pretty quickly, but there were all kinds of corner cases where things didn't work as intended or in fact were made worse by the fixes.  It took quite a long time to get a handle on it and develop fixes (plural) to address the underlying problems.  Not surprisingly, the root of this came from the Game Engine 4 feature that introduced proactive TacAI behavior under fire. "


-- Of course, this was said back in June...  ::)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: MOS:96B2P on December 30, 2018, 09:30:34 PM
The running away behavior was suppose to have been fixed for the CMSF2 release.  I've been playing mostly SF2 lately and have not noticed a problem.  However all the other titles, with the exception of CM Afghanistan, still need to be patched for the running behavior.  Since the behavior is now fixed in one title hopefully the fix will be introduced to the remaining titles soon.

Then after that patch I think they have a CM Fortress Italy Rome to Victory module coming out.   :)     
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: IronX on December 30, 2018, 10:22:50 PM
It doesnít appear to me to be fixed (well) in CMSF2. I donít know about the fortifications issue, but in general troops will flee easily and retreat in odd directions. Of course, thatís not to say this happens all the time, but it certainly does happen in this title.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Pete Dero on December 31, 2018, 02:26:21 AM
No, I bought at GamersGate as well.. had to buy an 'upgrade' to get the other modules.

I checked my orders on the Battlefront site and can't find any upgrade.
In 2008 I have my Gamersgate purchase for the base game and later that year I paid $ 25 for the first module.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 31, 2018, 05:08:01 AM
It doesnít appear to me to be fixed (well) in CMSF2. I donít know about the fortifications issue, but in general troops will flee easily and retreat in odd directions. Of course, thatís not to say this happens all the time, but it certainly does happen in this title.

My personal experiences with CMSF2 have thankfully not been frustrated by this issue. In the scenarios Iíve run, I just havenít seen it, so if it is still there, I havenít been able to replicate it, or it is not as obvious. In the WWII titles, on the other hand, the problem is frequent and annoying as hell. Iím very disappointed too because I really have the urge to dig into these games again, and I just finally bought CMFI, but this single issue is ruining the entire experience for me.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Yskonyn on December 31, 2018, 05:20:06 AM
Yes, dissapointingly at the BFC forums, people get sent to stand in the corner if you express any discontent about the patch taking so long. The issue is made out to be a much smaller issue than it actually is by some or (and I like this one best) you get told to just downgrade to the 3.0 engine.

I get that the issue might be hard to tackle and I am very happy to see CMSF2 isn't having the issue, or at least not glaringly so.
But the fact remains that the WW2 titles have had this issue for a long time now, effectively shutting down gameplay for quite a few people, including me.

CMSF2 is the only title I play at the moment and it's great to see it has made CM great again!
But personally I find it extremely annoying that the older titles have been left like this for so long.
The game Jason and I started was put on hold for the very same reason. How long ago now? Pfff.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: mikeck on December 31, 2018, 09:24:14 AM
Is it only affecting WW2 titles? Wondering if anyone has experienced it with Black Sea?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 31, 2018, 11:16:52 AM
Is it only affecting WW2 titles? Wondering if anyone has experienced it with Black Sea?

I think it impacts everything running on the 4.0 engine, except for CMSF2. I'll check out CMBS.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Yskonyn on December 31, 2018, 11:39:10 AM
Is it only affecting WW2 titles? Wondering if anyone has experienced it with Black Sea?

I think it impacts everything running on the 4.0 engine, except for CMSF2. I'll check out CMBS.

CMBS is affected just as much. It's an issue introduced in the 4.0 upgrade.

CMSF2 is 4.0 as well, but features fixes for the issue discussed. A patch for the other games should follow shortly, but 'shortly' is a relative thing.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Pete Dero on December 31, 2018, 12:44:55 PM
A patch for the other games should follow shortly, but 'shortly' is a relative thing.

Any time this year is fine ...
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: jomni on January 01, 2019, 02:20:51 AM
Shock Force crashed on me. I just left the game unattended for a while. The program is gone when I came back.  >:(
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on January 01, 2019, 09:28:52 AM
Shock Force crashed on me. I just left the game unattended for a while. The program is gone when I came back.  >:(

That sounds like an anti-virus thing to me. Check your quarantine folder....I bet ya find it there.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: MOS:96B2P on January 01, 2019, 10:29:16 AM
Any time this year is fine ...
[/quote]

I hope (and I think it is a reasonable hope) BFC starts to roll out the runaway fix in the next two or three weeks.   
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: MOS:96B2P on January 01, 2019, 04:31:02 PM
From a post at Battlefront:

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/134345-2019-reporting-for-duty/

Happy 2019 everybody!  Time for the annual look ahead with a little look back as needed.  So let's start with the look back first and get it out of the way.

2018 was one of those years where a lot more happened behind the scenes than was visible to you all out in the public eye.  The two big ones that you all did see were the new website and the release of CMSF2 with (almost) all of its content.  As I've stated more times than I can count, CMSF2 turned out to be a LOT more work than we expected it to be.  It was our first time overhauling existing content at all, not to mention the equivalent of 4 releases at once.  It was definitely worth putting in the time and doing it right.

So what's next?

The first thing you guys are going to see is the patches for all non-CMSF2 games which incorporate a bunch of fixes.  Some are specific to a particular game Family, some are to the Game Engine itself.  The most important of which is an overhauled TacAI response to things that go boom.  The most obvious part of that is a change in behavior for soldiers in fortifications and other good positions of cover.

CMSF2 customers will see completely overhauled British, German, Dutch, and Canadian campaigns released as they are finished.  No specific timeframe set for these, but personally I want to see all of them done before the end of February.

As soon as the game patches are out we'll restart development on Fortress Italy's Rome To Victory Module.  This one is pretty much complete in terms of the game itself.  What isn't done is the scenarios and campaigns because we pulled everybody off them for an "all hands on deck" overhaul and testing of CMSF2 content once we realized the magnitude of that task.  Hey, nobody can fault us for aiming our sights low, right?  With our crack crew of scenario guys back on this game we expect to be done before the end of winter.

At the same time we're plowing ahead with the first module for Red Thunder.  It's pretty far along already, but we have a few more terrain and TO&E tweaks to do before the content can get pounded out.  If all goes well this one could also be out by the end of winter, but I'm guessing it might go into the Spring.  We will not hold up either this or the Rome To Victory Module for marketing reasons.  Meaning, if they are both done on the same day, we release them on the same day.

With this stuff done our publicly announced products will all be in your hands.  What will we do with the rest of 2019?  Not to worry, we have things queued up :) For more modest sized releases we hope to give you guys at least 2 or 3 Packs.  There's nothing specific nailed down for these, however we do have ideas and people interested on working on them.  So for now that's all I can say.  Talk about bigger stuff in the works will come to a forum near you in a few months.

That's all for now!

Thanks to all of you for another year of strong support and we look forward to keeping things rolling.  If it weren't for you we'd be flipping burgers and we know it :o

Steve

P.S.  CMSF2 v2.01 is being posted today, so there's that too!

 Quote
 
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: jomni on January 01, 2019, 04:39:32 PM
Shock Force crashed on me. I just left the game unattended for a while. The program is gone when I came back.  >:(

That sounds like an anti-virus thing to me. Check your quarantine folder....I bet ya find it there.

Perhaps I used the wrong words. "Program gone" means it just closed by itself. Not that the file itself was quarantined.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on January 01, 2019, 04:49:34 PM
Thanks for the heads up on the patch...it is available now so that was pretty good of them correcting things after release.  As far as the rest of the news, I'll wait and see what they actually end up delivering this year but hopefully it all turns out as planned:)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on February 04, 2019, 04:35:21 PM
Happened to be looking at the Battlefront forum last night looking for any news updates and stumbled across this thread discussing possible Credit Card fraud from making purchases at battlefront, especially around the new time of them switching web sites and release of CMFS2.  Quite a few people claiming to have had fraudulent transactions on their account after making purchases, inferring might be security issues with the new web site.  Steve has basically chalked it up to "coincidence" and doesn't believe Battlefront is to blame.

No idea, but when that many people report issues, at least warrants being cautious.....I bought a couple of things since the new site was put up, but I always use PayPal so not sure if that matters.  So far, no issues on my account.  Just something to be aware of.

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/134447-fradulent-credit-card-transactions/
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: jomni on February 04, 2019, 06:14:32 PM
I didn't have problems on my end.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: smittyohio on February 04, 2019, 07:05:25 PM
Happened to be looking at the Battlefront forum last night looking for any news updates and stumbled across this thread discussing possible Credit Card fraud from making purchases at battlefront, especially around the new time of them switching web sites and release of CMFS2.  Quite a few people claiming to have had fraudulent transactions on their account after making purchases, inferring might be security issues with the new web site.  Steve has basically chalked it up to "coincidence" and doesn't believe Battlefront is to blame.

No idea, but when that many people report issues, at least warrants being cautious.....I bought a couple of things since the new site was put up, but I always use PayPal so not sure if that matters.  So far, no issues on my account.  Just something to be aware of.

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/134447-fradulent-credit-card-transactions/

Wow... reading that thread, I can't believe Battlefront could possibly be seriously chalking it up to coincidence...
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Ubercat on February 04, 2019, 08:12:21 PM
Funny how they think that wargamers would rob them blind if they dump the draconian DRM but don't think that CC fraud is much of a threat.   ::)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Jarhead0331 on February 04, 2019, 08:29:42 PM
Troubling.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: ArizonaTank on February 04, 2019, 10:15:18 PM
It would cost them very little to take steps to reassure the customer base. 
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on February 05, 2019, 03:35:39 AM
it will be interesting to see how things turn out.......if that was my company and saw that many allegations, i would immediately be hiring outside independent security consultants to investigate versus just hoping its coincidence.  who knows, maybe he is in the background.  if and when i want to make another purchase, iíll certainly think twice.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: A Canadian Cat on February 05, 2019, 07:26:06 AM
Woah guys read that thread carefully. Steve *has* taken steps to ensure the sites safety. The store it self has been examined for security issues. The sever has been checked for malware and any possible breaches. They verified to everyone that they do not store CC information so there is no database of customer data to steel. And on top of that Steve has been in contact with their CC transaction service (whatever the right name for that is) to inform them of what some customers have experience so they can check their systems. They have assured Steve that there are no issues on their end.
I'm not sure what some of the people who continue to rant are on about but Steve has already done - on his own initiative - everything that has been suggested.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Grim.Reaper on February 05, 2019, 04:14:21 PM
*removed*
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on February 05, 2019, 09:12:24 PM
Woah guys read that thread carefully. Steve *has* taken steps to ensure the sites safety. The store it self has been examined for security issues. The sever has been checked for malware and any possible breaches. They verified to everyone that they do not store CC information so there is no database of customer data to steel. And on top of that Steve has been in contact with their CC transaction service (whatever the right name for that is) to inform them of what some customers have experience so they can check their systems. They have assured Steve that there are no issues on their end.
I'm not sure what some of the people who continue to rant are on about but Steve has already done - on his own initiative - everything that has been suggested.

Correct. And this came at a time where 500 million cards were compromised.  It is not unexpected that some of those 500 million cards were also people who purchased games on the Battlefront site.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: WargamerJoe on August 04, 2020, 05:47:45 AM
And the award for "Most Unexpected Event of 2020" goes to...

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1369370/Combat_Mission_Shock_Force_2/

It's also going to be on the Matrix Store (as it's Matrix Games who are publishing it for this) and "other" platforms.

I talk about it a bit on Wargamer but my personal gut feeling is that this is because Matrix introduced Battlefront to their defence industry partners. I'd heard Combat Mission was being used by some folk in that scene. I imagine the money for that kind of work is pretty good, but you've got to have your s**t together and provide accessible product for the clients and offer a decent patching solution etc.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on August 04, 2020, 05:52:55 AM
And the award for "Most Unexpected Event of 2020" goes to...

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1369370/Combat_Mission_Shock_Force_2/

It's also going to be on the Matrix Store (as it's Matrix Games who are publishing it for this) and "other" platforms.

I talk about it a bit on my Wargamer but my personal gut feeling is that this is because Matrix introduced Battlefront to their defence industry partners. I'd heard Combat Mission was being used by some folk in that scene. I imagine the money for that kind of work is pretty good, but you've got to have your s**t together and provide accessible product for the clients and offer a decent patching solution etc.

Or maybe BFC is just desperate for customers and finally saw the light?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Rayfer on August 04, 2020, 05:56:50 AM
And the award for "Most Unexpected Event of 2020" goes to...

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1369370/Combat_Mission_Shock_Force_2/

It's also going to be on the Matrix Store (as it's Matrix Games who are publishing it for this) and "other" platforms.

I talk about it a bit on my Wargamer but my personal gut feeling is that this is because Matrix introduced Battlefront to their defence industry partners. I'd heard Combat Mission was being used by some folk in that scene. I imagine the money for that kind of work is pretty good, but you've got to have your s**t together and provide accessible product for the clients and offer a decent patching solution etc.

Or maybe BFC is just desperate for customers and finally saw the light?

If they begin to put their other titles on Steam it would be nothing short of awesome.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: WargamerJoe on August 04, 2020, 05:58:42 AM

Or maybe BFC is just desperate for customers and finally saw the light?

Given that Steam (and maybe even Matrix) will be taking a cut here, I doubt an unknown/abstract amount of Steam users are worth more than a Defence Industry contract. But you're not going to get those people to dick around with Battlefront's launcher so they've probably been "inspired" (by money) to get their act together and just create a Steam version.

It's possible Matrix might even be doing it for them and have just taken the game files from Battlefront.

But if the Steam sales prove interesting enough (and the workload not insurmountable) then there's no reason more CM games couldn't go over but I'd be surprised if that's the main reason they're doing this.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on August 04, 2020, 06:08:06 AM

Or maybe BFC is just desperate for customers and finally saw the light?

Given that Steam (and maybe even Matrix) will be taking a cut here, I doubt an unknown/abstract amount of Steam users are worth more than a Defence Industry contract. But you're not going to get those people to dick around with Battlefront's launcher so they've probably been "inspired" (by money) to get their act together and just create a Steam version.

It's possible Matrix might even be doing it for them and have just taken the game files from Battlefront.

But if the Steam sales prove interesting enough (and the workload not insurmountable) then there's no reason more CM games couldn't go over but I'd be surprised if that's the main reason they're doing this.

At present BFC gets new customers from - zero advertising, no? You have to know about their website in order to find and/or buy their products.  20 years ago they at least had some print ads in the pulpy World War II themed magazines. Putting them on a platform which recommends similar titles to users seems like a good way to get the word out.

Why only now? You have to keep in mind how badly BFC got hosed when they tried to partner with a third party for the initial release of CMSF back in 2007. IIRC Steve talks about it in a couple of places - not much, but IIRC he was candid about how upsetting it was to see the game go to essentially bargain-bin pricing by their partner and having no control over it.

I'm not making the connection between "defence industry contracts" and Steam. Has this been a condition of other software contracts (for example, Steel Beasts)?

Lots of speculation and we'll see if Steve comes forward with his take on it. Good news for wargamers using Steam, though, first the return of Microprose, and now this.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Destraex on August 04, 2020, 07:16:02 AM
And the award for "Most Unexpected Event of 2020" goes to...

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1369370/Combat_Mission_Shock_Force_2/

It's also going to be on the Matrix Store (as it's Matrix Games who are publishing it for this) and "other" platforms.

I talk about it a bit on Wargamer but my personal gut feeling is that this is because Matrix introduced Battlefront to their defence industry partners. I'd heard Combat Mission was being used by some folk in that scene. I imagine the money for that kind of work is pretty good, but you've got to have your s**t together and provide accessible product for the clients and offer a decent patching solution etc.
Awesome news. Finally! Now can the rest of us mugs that have been loyal customers get steam keys and all move over to steam? No more mucking around with patches, no more fiddling with keys and installers. Just an absolutely huge ass international community to play with.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on August 04, 2020, 07:27:42 AM
Now can the rest of us mugs that have been loyal customers get steam keys and all move over to steam? No more mucking around with patches, no more fiddling with keys and installers.

That appears to be the number one question on the BFC forum. What could possibly go wrong, eh?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Destraex on August 04, 2020, 07:44:20 AM
I love how the last screenshot on the steam page shows a fraps counter

Yeah. Nothing could go wrong. Can you imagine battlefront trying to honour all the engine upgrades and expansions for each game and module in the cmx2 series? I mean you would think it would be a simple compromise and part of any original steam deal, but knowing battlefront it would just "not be possible". Then again if they have "opened up" to steam, maybe like george lucas, they have decided it's time to move on and give up all of the old hang ups.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 04, 2020, 08:05:50 AM
 

Or maybe BFC is just desperate for customers and finally saw the light?

Given that Steam (and maybe even Matrix) will be taking a cut here, I doubt an unknown/abstract amount of Steam users are worth more than a Defence Industry contract. But you're not going to get those people to dick around with Battlefront's launcher so they've probably been "inspired" (by money) to get their act together and just create a Steam version.

It's possible Matrix might even be doing it for them and have just taken the game files from Battlefront.

But if the Steam sales prove interesting enough (and the workload not insurmountable) then there's no reason more CM games couldn't go over but I'd be surprised if that's the main reason they're doing this.

Some of what you've said is true. Without getting into the nuts and bolts of, it really came down to our relationship with Slitherine. They have been absolutely fantastic to work with. It really is as simple as the announcement says "The new arrangement puts Slitherineís considerable marketing muscle to work getting Combat Mission into more hands than ever before through its Matrix Games online store and Steam." We'll know soon enough if it was as worth it as they say. They seem like complete pros and would tend to think they know what they're talking about.

Regarding Steam CMSF2 keys for existing owners. Steve just posted this:

Quote
Hi all,

To answer the immediate question... existing Battlefront CMSF2 customers will get Steam keys for whichever products are owned.  We're not exactly sure yet how we'll get the keys to you (couple of options), but we'll let you know when we know.  Brand new Slitherine customers will get their Steam access along with their purchase.

Steve

What he just posted is exactly what my understanding has been during the whole process.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Yskonyn on August 04, 2020, 08:20:59 AM
Great news! If only to make it so much easier to re-install the games if needed!  :bd:
Iíll keep my non-Steam version running for as long as possible however, unless Steam Workshop support is going to be a thing and most modders upload their stuff to it.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 04, 2020, 08:24:03 AM
I love how the last screenshot on the steam page shows a fraps counter


Which screenshot is it? I didn't see it scanning through the screenshots of the Matrix site. I don't use FRAPS so it wasn't one of mine. :-) A large number of them do appear to be mine though. Including one that I jokingly made and asked "are convoys sexy?"
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: WargamerJoe on August 04, 2020, 08:51:15 AM
I mean to be fair, JD McNeil himself had always said he didn't want to take Matrix to Steam to avoid the "race to the bottom" of steam sales so perhaps Matrix's involvement (and their similar journey) has convinced Battlefront that maybe Steam is worth it after all. I'll take Elvis' response at face value on that.

I've seen some posts around from Steve about his stance on Steam and I just find suspicious that someone that stubborn would up and change their minds about something like Steam ESPECIALLY during a time when Steam's dominance is being actively challenged.

You mentioned Steel Beasts Michael, my understanding is that the military isn't going to want to play every game they're going to want only one of two products to do their testing. If Steel Beasts is popular, great, but a great way of beating them and taking over that business is to perhaps offer a potentially 'better' game (like CMSF2) but also make it more accessible to use and deploy. No-one can argue that Steam isn't a great way to distribute and maintain code at the very least.

But like you said, this is all speculation. I would be surprised if it wasn't a contributing factor but it may not be as important as I think it is.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Michael Dorosh on August 04, 2020, 09:10:14 AM
I've seen some posts around from Steve about his stance on Steam and I just find suspicious that someone that stubborn would up and change their minds about something like Steam ESPECIALLY during a time when Steam's dominance is being actively challenged.

From zero marketing to a major platform that will market for them - seems like a no-brainer.

Quote
You mentioned Steel Beasts Michael, my understanding is that the military isn't going to want to play every game they're going to want only one of two products to do their testing. If Steel Beasts is popular, great, but a great way of beating them and taking over that business is to perhaps offer a potentially 'better' game (like CMSF2) but also make it more accessible to use and deploy. No-one can argue that Steam isn't a great way to distribute and maintain code at the very least.

You're the only one talking about military contracts for some reason. What does that have to do with Steam? I genuinely don't know.

Last fall we had a computer sim team come to our armouries and filled the parade square with PCs, etc., to run something like 30 or 50 soldiers through a Steel Beasts sim simultaneously. I have no idea how it was delivered but I expect they bought the license for the game and installed it on the PCs. The PCs were dedicated, af far as I know, to sim training. Meaning it resided locally, not via Steam.

So again - why the red herring vis a vis military applications, or am I missing something?
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: sandman2575 on August 04, 2020, 09:19:57 AM
@Elvis

Can you say anything about how moving CMx2 to Steam is going to change how the game gets patched?

One of the best things about when Graviteam Tactics moved to Steam is that it forced Graviteam to improve its updating / patching process, which previously had been confusing.

I don't mean to slag on BFC at all, but I have to say, updating/patching/installing new modules on the CMx2 games is probably the most frustrating and confusing updating process I've ever encountered for a game. I have to assume that moving to Steam means this is going to get streamlined and simplified -- ??

(And am I jumping the gun by assuming the other CMx2 titles are coming to Steam, not just Shock Force 2?)
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 04, 2020, 09:41:52 AM
I mean to be fair, JD McNeil himself had always said he didn't want to take Matrix to Steam to avoid the "race to the bottom" of steam sales so perhaps Matrix's involvement (and their similar journey) has convinced Battlefront that maybe Steam is worth it after all. I'll take Elvis' response at face value on that.

I've seen some posts around from Steve about his stance on Steam and I just find suspicious that someone that stubborn would up and change their minds about something like Steam ESPECIALLY during a time when Steam's dominance is being actively challenged.



One of the first big things I was tasked to do when I started full time was to check out  other delivery systems. Steve was already well versed in the pros and cons of Steam. If i remember correctly, Steam used to do things like offer a producers games on sale if they decided that they wanted to. There were a couple of others that I've forgotten (it ain't easy getting old). I looked into Epic. That seemed like a much friendlier arrangement but they weren't taking on new developers at the time or about 6 months later when I contacted them again. Now, I think everyone has soured on them. So, in hindsight, it turned out for the best. GOG were good people to work with when I set that up but because there is no protection on the games it was a non-starter for anything other than the original CMx1 games (which we weren't even offering anymore on our site at the time).

Quote
You mentioned Steel Beasts Michael, my understanding is that the military isn't going to want to play every game they're going to want only one of two products to do their testing. If Steel Beasts is popular, great, but a great way of beating them and taking over that business is to perhaps offer a potentially 'better' game (like CMSF2) but also make it more accessible to use and deploy. No-one can argue that Steam isn't a great way to distribute and maintain code at the very least.

But like you said, this is all speculation. I would be surprised if it wasn't a contributing factor but it may not be as important as I think it is.

If I am understanding you guys correctly......are you wondering if Steam has something to do with our distribution for our "special" project? If so, that's a huge gigantic no.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 04, 2020, 09:47:21 AM
@Elvis

Can you say anything about how moving CMx2 to Steam is going to change how the game gets patched?

One of the best things about when Graviteam Tactics moved to Steam is that it forced Graviteam to improve its updating / patching process, which previously had been confusing.

I don't mean to slag on BFC at all, but I have to say, updating/patching/installing new modules on the CMx2 games is probably the most frustrating and confusing updating process I've ever encountered for a game. I have to assume that moving to Steam means this is going to get streamlined and simplified -- ??

(And am I jumping the gun by assuming the other CMx2 titles are coming to Steam, not just Shock Force 2?)

The official word is:

Quote
Combat Mission Shock Force 2 is the first CM family to make the move to Slitherine with more to follow over time......

I assume the patching through Steam will be like other Steam games. It won't be something I handle. That'll be done directly between Charles and the folks at Slitherine. So, I haven't been briefed on the details. But I have no reason to believe it will be different than other Steam games.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Blucher on August 04, 2020, 10:46:01 AM
Will there be DRM on the Matrix/slitherine version?

I would prefer a drm free matrix version with a back up steam key.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Elvis on August 04, 2020, 11:11:22 AM
Will there be DRM on the Matrix/slitherine version?

I would prefer a drm free matrix version with a back up steam key.

I'm sure there will be one. I don't know what kind they use though.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: ArizonaTank on August 04, 2020, 11:23:30 AM
@Elvis

Can you say anything about how moving CMx2 to Steam is going to change how the game gets patched?

One of the best things about when Graviteam Tactics moved to Steam is that it forced Graviteam to improve its updating / patching process, which previously had been confusing.

I don't mean to slag on BFC at all, but I have to say, updating/patching/installing new modules on the CMx2 games is probably the most frustrating and confusing updating process I've ever encountered for a game. I have to assume that moving to Steam means this is going to get streamlined and simplified -- ??

(And am I jumping the gun by assuming the other CMx2 titles are coming to Steam, not just Shock Force 2?)

The official word is:

Quote
Combat Mission Shock Force 2 is the first CM family to make the move to Slitherine with more to follow over time......

I assume the patching through Steam will be like other Steam games. It won't be something I handle. That'll be done directly between Charles and the folks at Slitherine. So, I haven't been briefed on the details. But I have no reason to believe it will be different than other Steam games.

This is great news. I love the series, love the concept and pretty much everything about CM series. IMHO it is the only tactical level ground combat game system (OK, Close Combat comes close as well) that can be called a simulation.

But honestly, the patching pain / hell that I was put through really turned me off. The last straw was a real goat rope over one of the CMFI upgrades. The CMFI DRM somehow didn't play nice with Gothic Line. I could do the upgrade, but would lose Gothic Line in the process. Took hours of my time and the Battlefront support guy (who was very responsive...but just had a hard time figuring out what the problem was). I remember sitting at my computer one Saturday morning, doing the 10th reinstall thinking..."this is just not fun." I'm an IT guy, and was a developer (a long time ago), so to see an ancillary function (the DRM) be the reason why the software was not functioning was just too much for me. In the end, I gave up trying to do the upgrade; despite having paid for it.

I have been sitting on the sidelines ever since...just because I hate the patching / DRM scheme. Fortunately GOG put out the CMx1 series for a song...and I have been happy playing those for the last several years.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Sir Slash on August 04, 2020, 11:50:21 AM
This can only be good news for the game and all of us who love to get kicked in the balls by it, I hope. You may have just saved 2020.  O0
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Father Ted on August 04, 2020, 12:38:11 PM
...unless Steam Workshop support is going to be a thing and most modders upload their stuff to it.

Now THAT is a cool thought - mods and user-made maps/battles/campaigns available at the click of a button...
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: -budd- on August 04, 2020, 12:40:49 PM
Can we assume people that already purchased will get steam keys when it lands on steam?

 I get that a goat rope is bad from the context used , but can I get a little more explanation just for curiosity's sake, never heard that before.
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: smittyohio on August 04, 2020, 03:41:33 PM
The DRM and the patching nightmares are the only reason I don't own every single one of these games.   Once they comes to Matrix and Steam, that will change... and reduce my bank balance.   O0
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Yskonyn on August 04, 2020, 03:44:50 PM
More PBEM opponents!  :dreamer:
Title: Re: Combat Mission status
Post by: Ubercat on August 04, 2020, 06:26:49 PM
The DRM and the patching nightmares are the only reason I don't own every single one of these games.   Once they comes to Matrix and Steam, that will change... and reduce my bank balance.   O0

Yeah, having to open a help desk ticket to get CMx2 to run every time I dared to take a month or two off from playing got really damn old.  >:(  If they're finally doing the right thing after all these years I may jump back in.