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Welcome => GrogHeads Feedback => Topic started by: bayonetbrant on July 11, 2018, 08:32:34 AM

Title: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: bayonetbrant on July 11, 2018, 08:32:34 AM
(http://grogheads.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Pavlov-1st-SPLASH.jpg) (http://grogheads.com/featured-posts/19380)
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: Cyrano on July 12, 2018, 08:26:32 AM
Like the game a great deal, actually.

And the designer is now officially designated FoG :).

Did you get the play mat?
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: BanzaiCat on July 12, 2018, 01:13:09 PM
Like the game a great deal, actually.

And the designer is now officially designated FoG :).

Did you get the play mat?

Play mat? You mean the mounted board?

Somehow I think whatever you're referencing is going well over my head, like 95% of the stuff around here.  :-\
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: JasonPratt on July 12, 2018, 01:20:00 PM
Nazis at the Ramparts Ultra-Deluxe!  :smitten:
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: Cyrano on July 12, 2018, 02:41:50 PM
Neoprene Mat

ē $25: Neoprene mat version of the game board (33" x 17")


KS add-on.

@jason:  There's a bit of "States of Siege" there to be sure, but I really like the interplay between the operational and the single-man tactical level.  A pal and I split the two and it's a good "us-against-the-machine" experience with enough for each to do to seem worthwhile.
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: BanzaiCat on July 12, 2018, 05:57:59 PM
Nope. Just the normal mounted board. That sounds cool though.
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: skirmish_tactics on July 12, 2018, 09:12:27 PM
Thanks so much for spreading the good word! Hanging with the Grogheads crew was the highlight of Origins for me.

If anyone has any questions about the game, let me know!

Also, if you didn't get the companion book (it was included for Kickstarter backers), but want to know all about the history surrounding Pavlov's House, you can check it out here: http://digitalcapricorn.com/Pavlov/Downloads/Companion_Final.pdf (warning - it's the full res (print) version, so the file size is hefty).
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: BanzaiCat on July 13, 2018, 07:13:40 AM
Thanks so much for spreading the good word! Hanging with the Grogheads crew was the highlight of Origins for me.

If anyone has any questions about the game, let me know!

Also, if you didn't get the companion book (it was included for Kickstarter backers), but want to know all about the history surrounding Pavlov's House, you can check it out here: http://digitalcapricorn.com/Pavlov/Downloads/Companion_Final.pdf (warning - it's the full res (print) version, so the file size is hefty).

Thanks for the link, ST. I'm intending to do a full review and if time allows, an AAR as well.
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: skirmish_tactics on July 14, 2018, 07:23:52 AM
A pal and I split the two and it's a good "us-against-the-machine" experience with enough for each to do to seem worthwhile.

Glad to hear you liked the co-op option. Iíve been hearing lots of feedback from solo gamers, but not many folks have tried the co-op option. Thatís my favorite mode of play.
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: BanzaiCat on July 14, 2018, 03:04:53 PM
A question: the only way to move Suppression Tokens from the Supply Box to the Suppression Box, is for one of our valiant defenders to take a Suppression Action...equal to the counter's Suppress Value...correct?

It would therefore be silly to have a Soviet counter do a Suppress action if they don't have any Suppress value, I imagine (which seems to be A, M, and G-rated defenders, though there's a few it seems that do have both).
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: BanzaiCat on July 14, 2018, 05:32:28 PM
Second question: I've drawn an Assault card for the Wehrmacht. The first (green) area has one Rifleman with a Suppress Value of 1. The rules for Assault say to add up all the Suppress values (which in this case is 1) and then to resolve the Suppress Action on page 10.

So that means I go and roll four dice? The Suppress Action detailed there is for a Wehrmacht mortar, which has a Suppress Value of 4. I'm assuming I just roll ONE die (since it's a 1-strength Rifleman unit) to see if that equals or exceeds the defense value of the green side of the building. Is that correct, just one die? (Or however many dice it adds up to for multiple infantry counters?)

Thanks!
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: JasonPratt on July 14, 2018, 05:42:16 PM
Thanks for the link, ST. I'm intending to do a full review and if time allows, an AAR as well.

Vote = yes
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: bbmike on July 14, 2018, 05:43:23 PM
Don't encourage him. He has like a million AARs he needs to finish.  :P
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: BanzaiCat on July 14, 2018, 05:50:25 PM
Third question (heh, sorry): I'm somewhat confused about Resupply/Storm Group cards.

So once the Resupply side is resolved, the rules state to flip it over to its Storm Group side.

Does that Storm Group card immediately go to the Storm Group portion of the game board, or do you leave it and move on to the Soviet Counter phase, then the next round's Soviet Card phase, and then resolve it in that next Wehrmacht Card phase?
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: BanzaiCat on July 14, 2018, 05:50:46 PM
Don't encourage him. He has like a million AARs he needs to finish.  :P

You're not wrong.
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: Staggerwing on July 14, 2018, 06:15:45 PM
How do the 2-player competitive rules look? Is there a lot for the German player to do, important decisions to be made, or is it more like B-17 QOTS where the German player just rolls the dice that the solitaire player would have rolled anyway and maybe decides what side of the bomber to attack?
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: BanzaiCat on July 14, 2018, 06:46:34 PM
I need to play it some more to put together coherent review-like thoughts, but so far, from my solo-playing point of view...

The game comes at you, hard, from a dozen different directions. I feel like the little Dutch boy plugging holes in a dyke with his fingers. Pavlov's House gets hammered by infantry and armor, the 13th Guards gets plastered by German units and bombs, and the 62nd Army is often struggling to keep supply lines open, anti-aircraft and artillery positions clear and available, and having stockpiles of supplies to send over in the first place. The game is definitely a juggling act. Meaningful decisions come in the form of hard choices you need to make; do you fix things the Germans have broken, or try to get ahead with something else? Do you ignore damage done to an anti-aircraft position, knowing that another Stuka attack could rain death up the chain of 62nd Army's positions? Your choices directly impact the random system's 'problem generator.'

You choose what supplies to bring up, what infrastructure to repair or build, which Soviet soldiers to bring over, what weapons to purchase, and what sides/sectors of the house itself to defend. The game system tries to F you up on all of those counts. You need to think ahead. In any game turn, you first make your infrastructure decisions, then the Germans can come along and mess it all up, then your house defenders get to take actions. You might not be able to use actions you planned for earlier in the turn (e.g., you place an artillery token to use on a Fascist force concentration, but some $#&!#@ Stukas come in and disrupt it, removing the token and thus your advantage) and the choices you make at the start of a turn might do a 180 by the end of the turn.

It's chaotic, it is random, but your choices directly impact how the game progresses. You really need to think about the game system and incorporate that into your strategy so you do not lose too early.
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: Cyrano on July 14, 2018, 10:13:24 PM
The way I did it:

1:  Yes.  Suppression, I discovered, is a very big deal.

2:  Yes, one shot looking to meet or beat the defense value of whomever he's trying to suppress, bearing in mind that's picked randomly.

3:  First see who starves (if anybody) then move the card up to the "Storm Group" box.  If there's a card already there, kick it out.  The next time you draw a 62nd Army (I believe I'm remembering the # correctly) card in the first phase, you can have a storm run in the color indicated on the card, provided you've no Wehrmacht in that color.  This is really the only way to "win-win" the game.  Oh, you can survive, but if you want to WIN, you need these.

 
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: skirmish_tactics on July 15, 2018, 08:15:48 AM
A question: the only way to move Suppression Tokens from the Supply Box to the Suppression Box, is for one of our valiant defenders to take a Suppression Action...equal to the counter's Suppress Value...correct?

It would therefore be silly to have a Soviet counter do a Suppress action if they don't have any Suppress value, I imagine (which seems to be A, M, and G-rated defenders, though there's a few it seems that do have both).

Some counters donít have suppress values (or rather, they have a 0 suppress value). They canít take a suppress action.

The anti-tank gunners [A] canít suppress.

The machine gunners [G] and mortar operators [M] can suppress by using the weaponís suppress value.
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: skirmish_tactics on July 15, 2018, 08:17:45 AM
Second question: I've drawn an Assault card for the Wehrmacht. The first (green) area has one Rifleman with a Suppress Value of 1. The rules for Assault say to add up all the Suppress values (which in this case is 1) and then to resolve the Suppress Action on page 10.

So that means I go and roll four dice? The Suppress Action detailed there is for a Wehrmacht mortar, which has a Suppress Value of 4. I'm assuming I just roll ONE die (since it's a 1-strength Rifleman unit) to see if that equals or exceeds the defense value of the green side of the building. Is that correct, just one die? (Or however many dice it adds up to for multiple infantry counters?)

Thanks!

Yep, thatís right - just one die in the case of a single counter with a 1 suppress value.
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: skirmish_tactics on July 15, 2018, 08:20:02 AM
Third question (heh, sorry): I'm somewhat confused about Resupply/Storm Group cards.

So once the Resupply side is resolved, the rules state to flip it over to its Storm Group side.

Does that Storm Group card immediately go to the Storm Group portion of the game board, or do you leave it and move on to the Soviet Counter phase, then the next round's Soviet Card phase, and then resolve it in that next Wehrmacht Card phase?

You resolve the Resupply immediately (in the Wehrmacht phase) when itís drawn. After resolving it, immediately move it to the Storm Group space. If there was already a Storm Card there, it gets replaced.
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: skirmish_tactics on July 15, 2018, 08:23:50 AM
How do the 2-player competitive rules look? Is there a lot for the German player to do, important decisions to be made, or is it more like B-17 QOTS where the German player just rolls the dice that the solitaire player would have rolled anyway and maybe decides what side of the bomber to attack?

The Wehrmacht player has some decisions to make, but itís not as engaging as the Soviet sides. Personally, my favorite option is 2-player co-op. Now, I will say that the 3 player competitive option amps up the difficulty for the Soviet players pretty significantly, because a smart Wehrmacht player can build some pretty powerful combos. I also sometimes play as the Wehrmacht player if Iím introducing two new players to the game. In the end, I would say itís a good option, but I wouldnít buy the game primarily to play three players.
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: skirmish_tactics on July 15, 2018, 08:27:18 AM
The way I did it:

1:  Yes.  Suppression, I discovered, is a very big deal.

2:  Yes, one shot looking to meet or beat the defense value of whomever he's trying to suppress, bearing in mind that's picked randomly.

3:  First see who starves (if anybody) then move the card up to the "Storm Group" box.  If there's a card already there, kick it out.  The next time you draw a 62nd Army (I believe I'm remembering the # correctly) card in the first phase, you can have a storm run in the color indicated on the card, provided you've no Wehrmacht in that color.  This is really the only way to "win-win" the game.  Oh, you can survive, but if you want to WIN, you need these.

Excellent observations, especially with regard to the importance of Storm Group assaults. If you want to win the game, youíre going to have to send some dudes to die.
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: skirmish_tactics on July 15, 2018, 08:28:26 AM
I need to play it some more to put together coherent review-like thoughts, but so far, from my solo-playing point of view...

The game comes at you, hard, from a dozen different directions. I feel like the little Dutch boy plugging holes in a dyke with his fingers. Pavlov's House gets hammered by infantry and armor, the 13th Guards gets plastered by German units and bombs, and the 62nd Army is often struggling to keep supply lines open, anti-aircraft and artillery positions clear and available, and having stockpiles of supplies to send over in the first place. The game is definitely a juggling act. Meaningful decisions come in the form of hard choices you need to make; do you fix things the Germans have broken, or try to get ahead with something else? Do you ignore damage done to an anti-aircraft position, knowing that another Stuka attack could rain death up the chain of 62nd Army's positions? Your choices directly impact the random system's 'problem generator.'

You choose what supplies to bring up, what infrastructure to repair or build, which Soviet soldiers to bring over, what weapons to purchase, and what sides/sectors of the house itself to defend. The game system tries to F you up on all of those counts. You need to think ahead. In any game turn, you first make your infrastructure decisions, then the Germans can come along and mess it all up, then your house defenders get to take actions. You might not be able to use actions you planned for earlier in the turn (e.g., you place an artillery token to use on a Fascist force concentration, but some $#&!#@ Stukas come in and disrupt it, removing the token and thus your advantage) and the choices you make at the start of a turn might do a 180 by the end of the turn.

It's chaotic, it is random, but your choices directly impact how the game progresses. You really need to think about the game system and incorporate that into your strategy so you do not lose too early.

Thanks so much for taking the time to play and share your thoughts! I really appreciate it.
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: BanzaiCat on July 15, 2018, 09:19:23 AM
Thank you for answering my questions; it's very helpful. I figured I was on the right track with most of it but it's always nice to know for sure!

And those gorram Stukas. Ugh. :)
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: Boggit on July 19, 2018, 06:10:22 PM
For those interested in the true story behind the battle I can recommend this documentary/analysis derived from a variety of historical sources... it's good, and something to measure the game against. The truth is far better than the Soviet propaganda that for years was the "official" account. :bd:

Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: BanzaiCat on July 21, 2018, 07:38:42 PM
S_T -

The wooden blocks in the game - they're not mentioned in the rules, but I'm figuring they're included to use in lieu of tokens. (Unless I'm missing something of course.)
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: JasonPratt on July 21, 2018, 07:45:08 PM
I usually love TIK, but I lost substantial respect for him when he spent a whole video repeatedly lecturing viewers, very patronizingly, on basic analytical principles, and then significantly failed to apply them to his theme (Suvorov's Icebreaker thesis, which he was determined to shoot down in the most shallow way possible).  >:(

I'll still probably like this video, and will watch it soon.  O:-)
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: BanzaiCat on July 21, 2018, 09:07:46 PM
I've watched a few of his Stalingrad videos and they're quite interesting. (Thanks Boggit)
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: skirmish_tactics on July 23, 2018, 08:08:19 PM
Sorry for the late reply - was away on vacation!

Yes, the wooden blocks can be used as an alternative to the counters used in the game. They aren't needed if you use the counters.
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: Cyrano on July 25, 2018, 11:27:45 AM
I will confess to preferring the counters...

Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: BanzaiCat on August 14, 2018, 10:49:23 AM
I do as well. It's unique that you included those in the base game, though. A nice touch.

I'm sorry to say my review is somewhat delayed; I am having some major changes in my life over the next few weeks but the dust should settle soon. I'm actually hoping to get something written up in the next couple of weeks.
Title: Re: Today's Unboxing - Pavlov's House!
Post by: skirmish_tactics on August 19, 2018, 02:22:13 PM
Looking forward to it!