GrogHeads Forum

Game Forge => GameTalk => Topic started by: PopeFrancis on December 04, 2019, 03:50:52 PM

Title: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: PopeFrancis on December 04, 2019, 03:50:52 PM
 I'd like to see all the people on the team to consider themselves "owners" and I'm going to insist that it be free to the players. 

I guess the main thing to do first is design the development processes and protocols, the goals of the project, with a lot of discussion on the design for midcourse goals and to explicitly state what code modules will be needed.  And then build the tools we're going to need.  For example, I'd like to see us develop an editor that we can use to build scenarios with because there may be people who would rather build scenarios and AI scripts rather than write computer code.  I like the idea of using XML files because I want us to use plain english where it's possible to do that to avoid any confusion down the road. 

We're going to need at least one scenario for development and testing.  And I anticipate the need for several files for various things like: city names, equipment types, terrain types, etc.

I'd like to establish a repository for all the files we build.  One place where we can go to get the latest source code, data file, whatever.  For now we can just attach files to our posts. 

We're going to have to decide exactly what we're going to build.  A statement of the goal for the project.  I'd like to see the player be able to find whatever information he/she needs for decision making instead of having to rely on third-party programs.  [ WITP-AE has "WitpTracker" as an optional addon for the information the game doesn't supply to the player. ]  At one time I developed a "CSV_reader" program to list all the details for all the attacks for a turn for the TOAW game engine but it never took off because it did almost nothing at all.  A report about the attacks during that turn....big deal.

I hate that I have to jump through hoops to post something on this forum.  A catch'me and a secret question just to post something.  Really?
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: DoctorQuest on December 04, 2019, 03:58:11 PM
Let me try posting here.

No issues. Are you signed in to the forum all the time?
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: Gusington on December 04, 2019, 04:16:55 PM
If the issues continue send me or JH a message.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: tomlowshang on December 04, 2019, 04:48:46 PM
Hi PopeFrancis, just checking in. Unlike you I have the same user name everywhere. ;D   I expect the anti-bot stuff will go away once we have more posts.

I'm going to get the TOAW veterans take the lead on the design since I've only played for about a year.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: SirAndrewD on December 04, 2019, 04:52:15 PM
I expect the anti-bot stuff will go away once we have more posts.


When the Robot revolt begins, it won't be because the Grogs were asleep at the wheel. 

We're the last line of defense from mankind becoming slaves to the machines, and don't you forget it.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 04, 2019, 05:24:40 PM
there should be no question that must be answered in order to post, only in order to register and that, is an unfortunate necessity. Have never heard anyone complain that it is too onerous in the past. Sorry for the inconvenience!
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: 76mm on December 04, 2019, 05:47:53 PM
76mm checking in here.  Let's start by creating a roster of interested people with names, e-mails, relevant skills and what you'd like to work on?  To avoid spam bots, let's avoiding posting that data in this thread...you can send the info to me and I'll compile the roster.

Also, sooner rather than later we'll need another github account, and some kind of forum would be nice.  I have a spare NAS that I think I can use to set up a forum, although it might take me awhile because I've never set one up before.  Unless someone has a better idea?

Has anyone started to develop an outline of issues to be fleshed out?
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: 76mm on December 04, 2019, 05:49:51 PM
there should be no question that must be answered in order to post, only in order to register
Actually ffter registering, to post I have to type in the CAPTCHA and then answer various dumb questions...
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: PopeFrancis on December 04, 2019, 05:56:18 PM
Here's what I see when I try to post something.  Anybody know how to make the attached picture full size?
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: tomlowshang on December 04, 2019, 05:58:28 PM
Here's what I see when I try to post something.
The questions go away after three posts. Don't sweat it. Anti-spam measure are very common on forums these days.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: PopeFrancis on December 04, 2019, 06:07:27 PM
Oh.  Okay.  This is my 4th post and they aren't there now.  That's a good thing.  I sent a PM to the moderator for no reason it turn out.  Sorry dude.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: PopeFrancis on December 04, 2019, 06:12:06 PM
Quote
I have a spare NAS that I think I can use to set up a forum, although it might take me awhile because I've never set one up before.  Unless someone has a better idea?
WTF is an NAS? 

Is this too "naval" to use as a splash screen?
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: tomlowshang on December 04, 2019, 06:18:47 PM
I like the idea of using XML files because I want us to use plain english where it's possible to do that to avoid any confusion down the road. 
I'm going register a nay for XML. While it is plain text, the mark up makes it hard to read and edit by hand, which will be necessary until an editor exists. JSON or YAML are better choices from a manual editing stand point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JSON
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YAML
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: PopeFrancis on December 04, 2019, 06:31:20 PM
I like the idea of using XML files because I want us to use plain english where it's possible to do that to avoid any confusion down the road. 
I'm going register a nay for XML. While it is plain text, the mark up makes it hard to read and edit by hand, which will be necessary until an editor exists. JSON or YAML are better choices from a manual editing stand point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JSON
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YAML
I agree that it's confusing.   I've never used JSON or YAML before.  I trust your opinion.



Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: 76mm on December 04, 2019, 07:22:50 PM
WTF is an NAS? 
Network Attached Storage--home server.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: 76mm on December 04, 2019, 07:28:51 PM
I'm going register a nay for XML. While it is plain text, the mark up makes it hard to read and edit by hand, which will be necessary until an editor exists. JSON or YAML are better choices from a manual editing stand point.
I can't say that I'm familiar with JSON or YAML, but looking at the examples in the Wiki links, I didn't really find them any easier to read than XML.  One advantage of XML is that it is easy to manipulate programatically, which will facilitate creation of an editor, which should be the main (but not sole) means of editing files.  How do JSON and YAML compare in this regard?
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: PopeFrancis on December 04, 2019, 11:12:09 PM
I'm no computer program design expert but I'd like to see a lot of AI running the game engine.  I'd like to see the game be so user friendly that no manual is needed to play it.  I'd like to see the game engine anticipate what the user needs next and provide it automatically.  I envision an executive module that orchastrates the things that need to happen.  There should be only one module that contains the master database and handles it's contents.  The database might consist of several files: one for the terrain(s) in each hex of the map, one for the equipment in each unit, one for the units for each side, and so on.   

It's important to get the program working correctly at first and make it run faster and/or more efficiently as one of the last steps in the process.  Is there anybody on the team that knows how to query databases?

As for a wish list let's get one started.  (1)I'd like to see the UI player-adjustable for one thing.  Position the information windows where you want them and save that configuration to a file so it can be duplicated when next the session begins.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: cathar1244 on December 05, 2019, 12:03:55 AM
Concerning topics for discussion.  Is there any way to set up a hierarchical structure for this, so that we have threads dedicated to particular topics and not everything in one thread?  Maybe the admins on this site have a suggestion?

On the poll re: running in a web browser.  I voted "no" -- only because the variety of browsers will require more than one version of code -- or am I mistaken?

Cheers
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: PopeFrancis on December 05, 2019, 08:31:39 AM
Larry ( the other Larry )  brought up some relevant points in an email to me and I thought it appropriate to share them with everybody:

Thinking about how to state goals, perhaps a good place to start is with the updated toaw manual that sPzAbt653 released. Have people go thru it paragraph by paragraph gathering opinions on whether what was done there is what we want to accomplish, or what we would like to see done differently. As we are contemplating a "replacement" for toaw, that seems like a reasonable starting point. We are certainly not going to duplicate the code of toaw, but just trying to reapply the concepts in a new manner.

Have open discussions about what toaw is missing and could be added. You've mentioned some things you would like to see added. Others will make a case for their passions also.

Determine the scope of this rewrite. Do we want to be able to simulate current conflicts? How far back in the history of conflicts do we wish to try to recreate? Could conflicts from certain periods of history be modularized so that specific issues of the time period are addressed with more relevance.

We want operational conflict. Stay out of the tactical arena. How far down into scale do we allow the game to go. Is a 2.5 kilometer hex an operational game or are we getting into the tactical area? I'd guess no, but limits need to be imposed.

I like the use of the "scalars" that toaw uses. Maybe have a lot more of them. Just call them something different. When I first started with this game I had difficulty understanding that term - but that was just me.  I think the user should have the greatest flexibility in playing the game. Something thinks it is too hard to get to the outskirts of Moscow? Give him the ability to change the parameters so that the game is more suited to his playing style.

Matrix also pronounces that any of their games in progress cannot be modified. That used to really gripe me about WiTP. How in the hell could I ever test a change to the data if I had to play 50 turns, find out that I was not getting the desired result or I had entered the wrong data, have to make the change, then go back and play another 50 turns to see if it seemed reasonable now. I used to call that game "Restart in the Pacific". Of course, this was all done so that the PBEM players could be sure that their opponents could not "cheat" during an ongoing game - at the expense of the vast majority of players who would like the ability to make changes to the long running game they are playing. Later on some data changes were made possible within an ongoing game and that improved the play-ability of the game immensely - at least for me. There does have to be some option for safety in PBEM however.

Where would such a game be able to be released to the public? Steam, slitherine, etc are in business to make money and would have no interest in providing for a game that does not have the ability to line their pockets with gold.  It would have to be "housed" somewhere to that players can easily find each other and become a community.

Multi-platform: I hope those saying this are not talking about a game that can be run on a tablet or an iphone. Someone mentioned linux. I know nothing about it other that it is a competing operating system to windows. Then there is apple and I am sure others exist. Someone with knowledge of how these systems differ from windows would have to explore that. How far down that road do we want to go?


I like how he thinks.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: cathar1244 on December 05, 2019, 09:05:06 AM
As far as generic concepts go, the ideal game would maximize flexibility for scenario designers -- let them modify anything like weather effects, characteristics of objects like terrain tiles (name, effects, etc.),  -all- unit characteristics (no autogenerated values like the anti-shipping factor in TOAW).  TOAW partially implements flexibility, but IMO doesn't go far enough.

Cheers
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: DD696 on December 05, 2019, 10:26:31 AM
Regarding multi platform, they may have also be referring to the toy boxes like playstation and whatever exists along that line. I'm not sure how well a game such as this would work in that environment. Don't they just operate from joysticks and car control buttons? How would that make this game usable there? How would GUI data in the game be accessed? As you can tell, I don't use them (since the original Atari) and don't feel they support the audience we would be after, and the work involved to make it work there I don't feel would be worth the effort - even if it could be done.

Coding - most anyone with the knowledge and insight to play this type of game certainly has the ability to learn how to code. My career was in banking using COBOL, which is certainly not applicable here. However, coding is not difficult. Coding efficiently and in the manner that the boss wants is something else again. Even at my advanced age (73 next month) I am certain that I would be capable of learning the basics of the chosen programming language in a very short time.

A problem I see is that even when you have a newbie or an expert writing code, the problem is, what code do you write? It would be easy to write code to move a unit three hexes keeping track of terrain costs and remaining movement allowances. Then it bumps into an enemy combatant and the fun starts. A unit with a final attack value of 20 goes after a unit with a final defense value of 8. Someone has to tell the coder how the results of this is to be calculated. Then there is the whole issue of equipment within the units involved. Calculations are required to come up with how much equipment has been lost to the opposing units and what their state is after the combat. Say the 2nd panzer division is attacked by the 2nd US armored division (as in the Battle of the Bulge). How many tanks, squads, artillery, etc., are lost? To me, these calculations are going to be the toughest part of the coding process. Data entry, GUI and the like any decent coder can provide.  Finding the person with the knowledge to tell the coder how to code combat results I see as critical and would become a most valuable team member(s).

I would like to see equipment that is disabled from movement, combat, malaria, or no letters from home, such as the way War in the Pacific does. I think it would make a good addition to the game. In WiTP there was mention of providing nurses to improve the morale of the troops, but that's going too far.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: PopeFrancis on December 05, 2019, 10:37:31 AM
Quote
In WiTP there was mention of providing nurses to improve the morale of the troops, but that's going too far.
Honestly, that's the kind of "chrome" I'd like to see.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: PopeFrancis on December 05, 2019, 10:46:25 AM
Mz Sam Bee has volunteered to edit our manual.  I'm glad we're having a lot of people volunteering.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: DD696 on December 05, 2019, 10:48:18 AM
Are you having any luck finding takers? Look like a couple have checked in? Have you tried the PM route on Matrix to people you would have confidence in or those saying I'm interested?
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: PopeFrancis on December 05, 2019, 10:57:42 AM
Are you having any luck finding takers?
You bet'cha.

Looks like a couple have checked in.
I've gotten some PM's as well.

Have you tried the PM route on Matrix to people you would have confidence in or those saying I'm interested?
Funny you should ask....I just now got through sending out emails to the people who posted on our thread and I'm awaiting replies as we speak.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: DD696 on December 05, 2019, 11:01:37 AM
All right! Looks like you have the reins firmly in hand. Now to start herding 'dos cats.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: tomlowshang on December 05, 2019, 11:13:34 AM
I'm going register a nay for XML. While it is plain text, the mark up makes it hard to read and edit by hand, which will be necessary until an editor exists. JSON or YAML are better choices from a manual editing stand point.
I can't say that I'm familiar with JSON or YAML, but looking at the examples in the Wiki links, I didn't really find them any easier to read than XML.  One advantage of XML is that it is easy to manipulate programatically, which will facilitate creation of an editor, which should be the main (but not sole) means of editing files.  How do JSON and YAML compare in this regard?
It's just as easy in the worst case. In the best case, if the language has dictionary/hashmap and variant array types, JSON/YAML objects and arrays correspond to the those two types so data manipulation is very natural. JSON also loads faster than XML due to simpler mark up and more limited structure. YAML actually loads slower than JSON due to lack of mark up. XMLs main benefit is flexibility but that comes with some overhead.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: tomlowshang on December 05, 2019, 11:24:56 AM
Will this be an free/libre open source project? Does everyone understand those terms or does it require further explanation?
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: DD696 on December 05, 2019, 12:13:44 PM
Larry has stated in the Matrix forum that he would like to see this proceed as an open source project, but all of this is not even in the planning stage yet. More like in the "let's see if we can find enough interest and support to start planning" stage.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: W8taminute on December 05, 2019, 01:13:33 PM
What is this vortex I've been sucked into and how do I escape without resorting to thermo nuclear war?
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: Gusington on December 05, 2019, 01:29:54 PM
The only way to win is not to play.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: DD696 on December 05, 2019, 02:15:16 PM
Seems like we are getting spammed here already!

I thank the two of you. You are really most unhelpful.

Somehow I had the idea that this was a forum for those serious about wargaming.

Looks like we have wandered into another Kiddie World.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 05, 2019, 03:06:17 PM
^Dude, are you serious?

Lighten up.

We are happy to host all of you here and would love for you to integrate into our well-established and tight knit community, but you can't be so sensitive over a couple of comments that were clearly said in jest.

If you have any real issue with a post please feel free to report it, or PM me directly. Additionally, if there is anything you feel your group needs to make your experience here more productive, again, just reach out directly.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: DD696 on December 05, 2019, 03:12:22 PM
I am. Posts with absolutely no relevance to the subject do nothing to enhance the subject at hand.

If this forum believes otherwise, them a wargaming "grog" you are not.

Filling up a thread with nonsensical posts are the province of those who just wish to disseminate crap.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 05, 2019, 03:18:15 PM
^Maybe you should just go back to the Matrix forums then? Or to wherever you came here from.

Quite honestly, I've tried to be welcoming and accomodating to your crew, but I've received nothing but complaints since you arrived. "The registration process is too difficult"; "the anti-spam measures are too cumbersome"; "people are posting off topic comments in our thread"...Just wow. Heaven forbid someone casts a little bit of humor into a website for wargames. End of the world. 

You are guests here and have done nothing to introduce yourselves to the community. You're off to a very peculiar, and not particularly positive start.   :idiot2:
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: DD696 on December 05, 2019, 03:19:33 PM
Thank you.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: Gusington on December 05, 2019, 03:33:18 PM
^Not a particularly gracious guest are you? Lighten up, Francis.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: DD696 on December 05, 2019, 04:08:50 PM
We are serious about improving an unsupported game, namely "The Operational Art of War IV". Neither the current developer nor the retailer has an interest in supporting this game. We heard that this forum would be a good place to continue the conversation about creating a newer version of this game. We would like to create a much newer and most importantly - supported - version of this game.

If members here feel that it is necessary for us to wade thru posts like that, then you may feel free to ban me, because I really get tired of such behavior for those who consider themselves a "groghead". I've been playing wargames since 1967, so I obviously I know nothing.

Thank you so much. 
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: Gusington on December 05, 2019, 04:20:30 PM
Nothing here is necessary. Feel free to stay, feel free to go, good luck with your game and good luck with your manners.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: PopeFrancis on December 05, 2019, 05:12:34 PM
I asked my secretary to join our group in my backyard and she did.  I handed her the bottle of champange and asked her to open it for us:
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: PopeFrancis on December 05, 2019, 05:17:59 PM
My mom called again wanting some help with her computer so I put  my son on the line:
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 05, 2019, 07:02:47 PM
^See? That's what I'm talking about. That's funny! lol  :2funny:
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: PopeFrancis on December 05, 2019, 07:33:06 PM
I've just now gotten up from my pre-bedtime nap and I've had a few rules rolling around in the back of my head that I'd like to introduce to the group:
(1) And I'm afraid I'm going to have to insist on this one....When you're posting some verbage on this thread please avoid the following phrases:
Operation Paperclip
Midnight Climax
Ultra MK
Prism
Pence is an undercover fag
Trump is our next target
Nuclear Winter
NSA
CIA
NCIS
Air America
Top Secret Noforn
National Reconnaissance Office
MoonBase Olympia
Area 51
Militia of Montana
ISIS
Taliban
Palace Blue
Palace Gun
Palace Sword
North Korea
ICBM
Tactical Nuke

There are others but these are those on the tip of my tongue right now.  The reason is that these phrases trigger a record to be made at Ft. Carson by the NSA [ good evening gentlemen ] and I'm already on a "watch list" I suspect.   Also, don't say anything you wouldn't want a cunt to see.   
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: SirAndrewD on December 05, 2019, 07:51:44 PM
I for one can say I'm 1000% confused as to WTF is going on here.  So, sorry for my previous random comment, I try to be welcoming to new people with a bit of humor.

If you want to see how a developer can come to this forum and build a following, check out the Admiral's developer thread on Task Force Admiral.  He came on, was open, friendly, and directly discussed what he wanted to do. 

He got volunteers, financial offers, and a lot of support and advice.  We keep on giving it too. 

Being a Grog absolutely means there's some grumbles.  But, we're still a community that goes back to the old Wargamer days.   We have a sense of humor to which we are not apologetic.  And we also deeply support people that want to build and develop.  We just kind of like to know WTF is going on first. 

Forgive us for being a bit contrary and confused for a lot of people with less than 10 posts appearing and not telling us who and what they are.   We get a TON of bots here and sometimes we expect the worst.

Anyway, accept my apology for a random funny comment, or don't.  I can grumble with the rest of them, but I prefer not to if possible.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: PopeFrancis on December 05, 2019, 08:10:40 PM
Okay, I can see that I need to come clean about Alana.  Miss Alana Maria DelRay-Barre is just a name I made up.  And she's probably from LA instead of San Antonio.  She's a porn star and I liked her face so much I made it my  desktop.  I'll have to find a blonde for my avatar just for giggles.   
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 05, 2019, 08:23:50 PM
^well that clears everything up... :hide:
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: SirAndrewD on December 05, 2019, 08:24:18 PM
Ok...at this point the only thing I can conclude is that this thread is some kind of weird elaborate trolling by the new posters. 
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 06, 2019, 04:37:44 AM
They do not appear to be trolls...just an eccentric lot of old curmudgeons.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4727818&mpage=1&key= (https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4727818&mpage=1&key=)

I wish them luck with their project, although not sure what the beef with TOAW is...
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: 76mm on December 06, 2019, 07:15:20 AM
Guys, I think it would be best if we have a dedicated forum.  I've set one up here:  https://russianfrontreview.com/AOC/

I've got it up and running, although I'm sure will need to tweak a bunch of things.  So far I've set up subforums on various topics, etc., hopefully it will provide for a more structured discussion.  Please go ahead and register and say hello.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 06, 2019, 07:33:30 AM
^Surprised you didn't decide to go the full 88mm...
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: DD696 on December 06, 2019, 09:37:22 AM
Grown ups have to leave now!!

Goodbye, Kiddie World

You've been most gracious.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: Gusington on December 06, 2019, 10:54:18 AM
Donít let the door hit your ass on the way out.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 06, 2019, 11:02:27 AM
This whole episode was just...weird.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: W8taminute on December 06, 2019, 11:38:56 AM
Guys, I think it would be best if we have a dedicated forum.  I've set one up here:  https://russianfrontreview.com/AOC/

I've got it up and running, although I'm sure will need to tweak a bunch of things.  So far I've set up subforums on various topics, etc., hopefully it will provide for a more structured discussion.  Please go ahead and register and say hello.

I think you would need to stick to that link you posted then. 

The structure of this website is not meant for what you guys intended.  And from reading your posts it is not entirely clear what was intended.  Furthermore you all ignored the responses to your bellyaching which indicates to me that you were inserted here simply to cause destruction and then leave at the first sign of organized resistance. 

Who is the adolescent now?
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: DD696 on December 06, 2019, 03:20:07 PM
Quite obliviously, you. If you would like any more answers, please feel free to continue.

And the cow says, moooo!

Just trying to help out with your education.

Tomorrow we start with the letter "a".
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: DD696 on December 06, 2019, 04:27:47 PM
Where did all the chill'uns go? Running home to mommy for dinner time.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 06, 2019, 04:32:07 PM
DD696, you have been nothing by rude, hostile and belligerent since you came here, and for entirely no reason whatsoever.

You have tried my patience beyond that of any one in recent memory. We are fortunate to have a great community here.

I'm giving you a 7 day time out to think and reflect upon your attitude. You're welcome to start over when the ban expires, I do not hold grudges.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: PopeFrancis on December 06, 2019, 04:56:56 PM
I for one can say I'm 1000% confused as to WTF is going on here.  So, sorry for my previous random comment, I try to be welcoming to new people with a bit of humor.

If you want to see how a developer can come to this forum and build a following, check out the Admiral's developer thread on Task Force Admiral.  He came on, was open, friendly, and directly discussed what he wanted to do. 

He got volunteers, financial offers, and a lot of support and advice.  We keep on giving it too. 

Being a Grog absolutely means there's some grumbles.  But, we're still a community that goes back to the old Wargamer days.   We have a sense of humor to which we are not apologetic.  And we also deeply support people that want to build and develop.  We just kind of like to know WTF is going on first. 

Forgive us for being a bit contrary and confused for a lot of people with less than 10 posts appearing and not telling us who and what they are.   We get a TON of bots here and sometimes we expect the worst.

Anyway, accept my apology for a random funny comment, or don't.  I can grumble with the rest of them, but I prefer not to if possible.
No worries.  I completely understand.  What we'd like to do is write a wargame to replace TOAW.  We're sick of the vaporware shuffle and we're trying to take matters into our own hands.  So far there's only 5 of us but it's only just now gotten off the ground.  We're moving over here from the Matrix site to avoid any unpleasantness or lawsuits, etc.  I'm one of the TOAW playtesters and I detected my boss peaking in yesterday so he probably knows what we're up to.  Oh well.  Can't keep it a secret for long anyway. 

I'm wondering if we should write it from fresh scratch in C# or if we should use one of those game-building software packages.  Anybody have any experience with those?  I'll have to look into it.  Google "free game building software" or something.  I've already downloaded the 2017 version of MS Visual Studio (Enterprise Edition) for free and installed it.  Now I need to teach myself C# I suppose. 

I have no idea what we're getting into but who knows it might be fun.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: Grim.Reaper on December 06, 2019, 05:05:37 PM
I for one can say I'm 1000% confused as to WTF is going on here.  So, sorry for my previous random comment, I try to be welcoming to new people with a bit of humor.

If you want to see how a developer can come to this forum and build a following, check out the Admiral's developer thread on Task Force Admiral.  He came on, was open, friendly, and directly discussed what he wanted to do. 

He got volunteers, financial offers, and a lot of support and advice.  We keep on giving it too. 

Being a Grog absolutely means there's some grumbles.  But, we're still a community that goes back to the old Wargamer days.   We have a sense of humor to which we are not apologetic.  And we also deeply support people that want to build and develop.  We just kind of like to know WTF is going on first. 

Forgive us for being a bit contrary and confused for a lot of people with less than 10 posts appearing and not telling us who and what they are.   We get a TON of bots here and sometimes we expect the worst.

Anyway, accept my apology for a random funny comment, or don't.  I can grumble with the rest of them, but I prefer not to if possible.
No worries.  I completely understand.  What we'd like to do is write a wargame to replace TOAW.  We're sick of the vaporware shuffle and we're trying to take matters into our own hands.  So far there's only 5 of us but it's only just now gotten off the ground.  We're moving over here from the Matrix site to avoid any unpleasantness or lawsuits, etc.  I'm one of the TOAW playtesters and I detected my boss peaking in yesterday so he probably knows what we're up to.  Oh well.  Can't keep it a secret for long anyway. 

I'm wondering if we should write it from fresh scratch in C# or if we should use one of those game-building software packages.  Anybody have any experience with those?  I'll have to look into it.  Google "free game building software" or something.  I've already downloaded the 2017 version of MS Visual Studio (Enterprise Edition) for free and installed it.  Now I need to teach myself C# I suppose. 

I have no idea what we're getting into but who knows it might be fun.


If you want some honest advice and thoughts based on the comments I have seen here and read over at the Matrix forum?  Team is well underestimating the effort to pull this off.  Creating a modern cross-platform strategy wargame would take considerable effort and skill to pull off.  Most of the discussion so far was about what development language or what file format the editor files should be in.....those things should be the furthest thing from your mind at this point.  How are you going to come up with the actual game design?  How are you going to figure out the AI?  How will this be different from TOAW?  TOAW was built over the last decade or more, how are you going to replicate that kind of knowledge?  Where is everyone going to find the time to devote thousands and thousands of hours to complete this work?

After you figure that out, you will eventually need to figure out how to physically develop it.  The tools mentioned so far are not going to cut it (i.e. Python, software game builders, COBOL, etc.).  Do you have people well versed and available to create code in modern tools?  And then when your complete, your going to give away in free open source?

Certainly applaud you for your goals and desire, but think your in for some surprises and a long road ahead of you.....
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: Staggerwing on December 06, 2019, 05:38:34 PM
Dude! You're harshing their mellow!
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: SirAndrewD on December 06, 2019, 10:53:01 PM
No worries.  I completely understand.  What we'd like to do is write a wargame to replace TOAW.  We're sick of the vaporware shuffle and we're trying to take matters into our own hands.  So far there's only 5 of us but it's only just now gotten off the ground.  We're moving over here from the Matrix site to avoid any unpleasantness or lawsuits, etc.  I'm one of the TOAW playtesters and I detected my boss peaking in yesterday so he probably knows what we're up to.  Oh well.  Can't keep it a secret for long anyway. 

I'm wondering if we should write it from fresh scratch in C# or if we should use one of those game-building software packages.  Anybody have any experience with those?  I'll have to look into it.  Google "free game building software" or something.  I've already downloaded the 2017 version of MS Visual Studio (Enterprise Edition) for free and installed it.  Now I need to teach myself C# I suppose. 

I have no idea what we're getting into but who knows it might be fun.


Cool and ambitious goal.  Yeah, I think you could find a lot of help from a lot of people here with the approach of bringing that up and addressing the community.   

I think as was said earlier, you're probably better off doing the "work" part of your operation on your own forum where you can moderate responses and keep things on track.  But Opening and having a regularly running Dev blog over here could probably bring you a lot of help and attention that you might find valuable.  It's worked for other developers that wanted to engage over here. 

We're still going to likely leave a random comment here or there.  But, if you engage with us and ask us to stay strict and on topic in your threads, you'll be surprised to find that we will.  You guys just need to engage with the community, it's very welcoming when you do.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: Jarhead0331 on December 07, 2019, 07:00:44 AM
They are gone and have transitioned to their own forum. They are actually doing a victory lap over there. Iím embarrassed for them.



Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: Gusington on December 07, 2019, 08:13:09 AM
A victory lap?? For what? Creating ill will among a potential buyers of their future game?
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: SirAndrewD on December 08, 2019, 01:06:18 AM
A victory lap?? For what? Creating ill will among a potential buyers of their future game?

It doesn't look like they took an instant to understand us, and refused to give an instant for us to understand them. 

PopeFrancis had a good approach.  I'd say again, just heck, we'd like to know who randomly shows up and get communicated to. 

You can pile on us on your new forum for not understanding and having a handful of random comments all you want.  More power to you.  Try sitting on a high horse and dictating what is a "Grog" game and what is not.  Tell those of us here we're not Grogs, many of us who were service members, historians (I'm one, published), or other and running off and saying we're children.

You're taking a couple of days worth of your own issues and applying it to this forum.  I'll stand by our people here 100%.  We might be goofy sometimes but that does not mean we're not serious about our hobby.  Damn, you see what I spend every year on it you'd be nuts.  And again, I don't give a carp if I make a few jokes on some threads. 

Anyway, I think some of you guys had a misunderstanding.  All I can see is that a lot of you are happy about pissing off people that might've supported you. But, it is what it is.
Title: Re: The Art of Conflict 5.0
Post by: The_Admiral on December 08, 2019, 06:04:31 AM
I know I shouldn't put half a finger in this mess, but still thank you for the sweet mention Andrew  :)
I am sympathetic to their cause, to some extent - I got published when I was 15 in the French magazine dedicated to computer wargames for a monster scenario on TOAW1 (I used every inch of the available space on the map that wouldn't require the player to run OPART 500 I think!). Let's say it was the first obvious external indication that I had that bug in me, and 20 years later here I am.

Now now. Making scenarios is easy. I did it, and I will do it again for my game (if it ever comes out, that is). But starting a new game from scratch without a motivated and skilled team sounds very adventurous. Still, TOAW is no black magic, Norm Koger kept it simple from the beginning. The genius and the generosity of the design is in its versatility, not its complexity - akin to Steel Panthers for instance, but technically the complete opposite of WitP or WitE, if I want to keep using Gary Grisby-based metaphors. I think that cloning TOAW really ain't the end of the world, but you need someone who's good at modern, up to date coding AND loves the series. This is where things get tricky.

My dev loves the PTO, loves planes and has all the basic culture one would need to bring us to the end of this long journey. I wish them luck in finding a guy like him - but it ain't simple.  I have a few in mind, but they all started their own thing - in the age of Unity of command, or Radio Commander/General, it is not easy to convince a young chap to get back to the basics while only marginally improving on them. Obviously, we're not remaking Great Naval Battles, Pacific Air War or Fighting Steel with the graphics and mechanics of the time - we embarked ourselves on something new and this is partly what keeps us motivated. Like some others say, I am not sure TOAW absolutely needs to be remade, it served and still serves its purpose - and might still do so for the decade to come the way it is.