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Digital Gaming => Computer Gaming => Topic started by: steve58 on January 12, 2021, 02:23:58 PM

Title: Libertad o Muerte! (wars of independence of the Spanish Colonies in America)
Post by: steve58 on January 12, 2021, 02:23:58 PM
Another wargame on sale over at Gamersgate.  On sale for $13.12 (https://www.gamersgate.com/DD-LIBERTAD-O-MUERTE/libertad-o-muerte) for the next 2 days.  Steam key.

I think this is the same game posted back in this thread (http://www.grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=23936.msg656089#msg656089).

Quote
Libertad o Muerte! represents the wars of independence of the Spanish Colonies in America. A turn-based (each turn being 6 months of real time) game, with a huge map of Latin America and nearby regions.

Players can take control of the Patriots or the Royalists, and guide them through 1810-1825 to achieve their military objectives, managing military resources, armies and fleets and starting or reacting to events. Cunning play of the event cards received each turn will be critical to final success.


Features

Huge map divided into areas covering all of South America, Central America and the Caribbean, as well as remote locations such as, Cádiz, California, Texas and part of the USA in 1810.
Hundred of land and naval units depicting historical leaders and forces.
Most important cities and forts in the represented regions.
Military Resources Production and Management.
Two deck of cards, one for each player, cards represent historical events and also bring into play various type of assets and tricks (economics, combat, new troops, fate, etc…).

Scenarios

Mexico: Covers the rebellion in Mexico, Texas and Florida 1810-1820
La Plata 1810-1823: Covers the rebellion in the Viceroyalty of Peru and the Viceroyalty of La Plata.
Bolivar: Covers the rebellion in the Viceroyalty of Nueva Granada and part of Peru. 1810. 1822
Grand Campaign 1810-1825: The full campaign unifying the rest of scenarios.
¡Early Years! 1810-1815: A medium-sized campaign, its the Grand Campaing limited to the first 5 years of the war.

Title: Re: Libertad o Muerte! (wars of independence of the Spanish Colonies in America)
Post by: Petermil on January 14, 2021, 04:05:28 PM
Before, a small introduction to understand this war of Spanish-American emancipation:

The Spanish empire or crown was financed 25% with economic resources coming from Latin America, the rest, 75% came from European Spain itself. In other words, three quarters of the treasure came from Spain. But that quarter of the treasure that came from America up to 90% came from Mexico. Only the remaining 10% came from South America. But during the years of war against Napoleon the Spanish treasury was left at zero and American resources became vitally important in order to win the war against the French. But Spanish armada was annihilated during the French Revolutionary Wars and Spanish Peninsular War. Well, now we have a clear picture of the war in Spain and in America: It is a war of little money and few resources. A war of the poor.

This war has three essential aspects: 1) the war at sea, 2) the campaigns of the small regular armies and 3) the war of the guerrillas. In other words, something very similar to the Spanish war of independence that occurred in parallel, but with a different weight in each component. Well, let's get on with the game. For Spain, which is an ocean away from America, to play, you had to see the enormous role played by the Spanish Navy in all the oceans, almost annihilated in the War against Napoleon, almost hear, but even the tail is all bull. Therefore, the war game must convey this clearly: the military projection of the Spanish Armada and the weight of the potential Armada. And also clear strategic and economic objectives, with one essential line: Veracruz-Cuba-Cadiz. Therefore, and despite the South American hardship, there in South America nothing or rather little of treasure (10%) had been lost. Another thing is that the despotic King Ferndinand VII missed the shot and gave it to him in the foot.

What does the game do?: The castle of Veracruz appears erased from the map, and the island of Cuba is neither valuable nor in danger. The port of Cádiz is only a place where expeditionaries embark (also false because the port of Ferrol was just as important for the embarkation of troops). Invented and absurd Ocean regions (?) and those privateers points that appear in the middle of nothing totally ridiculous that conveys a mistaken idea of the World War German submarines. The privateers of the 19th century has some ports of origin and takes its prices in sight of the enemy ports. privateers ports went from New Orleans to Baltimore, that's right, because the privateers were essentially American sailors, because since their war in 1812, they reached the ports of the eastern Atlantic to the Mediterranean. Everything in the waters of Spain was in danger: Veracruz, Habana, Cadiz, Ferrol, Cartagena, Mahon, etc. However, there is a South American Corso war, that of its tiny national fleets. Again from their ports of origin, very limited to their region, but capable of ruining the Spanish trade in the ports of America, already welcomed first from land.

What about the regular armies? I explained that this was essentially a Civil war between small armies of Latinamericans. The game doesn't convey that. The game gives the wrong idea of a fight between Europeans versus Latin Americans. But Spaniard expeditionaries practically disappeared during the long journey (between six months and a year on board), or in the jungle when they set foot on land. Sick, calcined or frozen, the fact is that very few Spaniard people left, but very few in relation to the size of the theater of war, so there was no one Spanish Battalion left standing in America. Battalions based on Indians and slaves were raised from expeditionary survivors only had the name and nothing else. Besides, if you play with the South American side, because with the Mexicans you can't even play, you get the disappointment that no campaign is described. Therefore, there are no Liberators campaigns that can be recognized. You remain as ignorant as you have started about battles or campaigns of the war. None.

Well, let's go with the guerrillas... and I'm done because there's nothing at all. One or two little invisible stacks here and a little cards there. The enormous weight of the guerrilla does not appear. Imagine a game of Vietnam war without guerrillas. Well, the same thing. That is to say, in short, that there is no nerve of the war, the war economy is meaningless, the guerrilla does not exist in practice, nor does the war at sea, and forget to recognize any renowned campaign or battle because there is none.

The development of this game began with the theater of Buenos Aires, there the emphasis, because I explained to that gentleman that it was the simplest thing. The thing was an Early Campaign that seems to me to sell the donkey twice if you have a stage with the same but longer. However, it doesn't come, because ignorance is so daring, it puts in the mistake of finishing War in the year 1826, that not even in the Wikipedia. Ignoring the main Spanish military effort, exhausting up to the last cup, it cannot be of another way, in defense of the island of Cuba, to see, he notes, that the island of Cuba defends itself, there march the regiments Catalonia, Málaga, they follow in 1824 the regiments Spain and Barcelona, in 1825 the Galicia regiment and in 1829 Corona regiment. Cuba resists, at least a century, thanks to the this reinforcement and the epic naval war of the admiral Angel Laborde, and from the island of Cuba a last expedition of reconquest is mounted in 1829 against Mexico (I repeat it year twenty-nine). Don't forget, Mexico was the essential economic objective as explained at the beginning why (90% of the treasure).

The prestigious publication Wargamer does not recommend buying. But let me tell you that the price was another debate, because as an in-depth connoisseur of the game's guts since its origin, I was unpleasantly surprised by these business practices of inflating prices. It is important to clarify to users that the scenarios were intended to play with War Across World (9 euros) , which has a wide range of scenarios of all wars. Because in principle it was an divulgation work, at low cost, for a small community. However ambition broke the pockets, the Headquarters engine was put in 22 euros. I have tried both engines and I can't explain this enormous difference in price, more than double. It was agreed to take it out with the War Across World engine, and the Headquarters engine doesn't bring any improvement that costs that enormous price difference. I don't see it anywhere. You have to compare it to the War Across World engine, the original. Another important thing, that we have to explain that the War Across World game editor doesn't come out with the game, but it was the agreed, and it was used to edit the scenarios, but the user currently doesn't have it at his disposal. The editor ceased to exist for this game. But as far as we know, the free editor of War Across World was used.

About intellectual property dispute:

This alleged game they are presenting is under a legal dispute, and these people are under warning for this reason. What cannot be tolerated is to present themselves as creators who stole someone else's creation, took over someone else's intellectual property, their databases, gathered over the years, and present it as their own idea. As if it were their own work. All this takes on a very ugly name and it is no game. Plagiarizing someone else's creation, someone else's map, drawings or paintings from here and there, all badly, without mentioning authors, and presenting them as something original. Some guys who have no idea of that conflict in their own words. When I say no idea I mean zero knowledge, zero passion and a lot of money to be made. The result of this remix stolen from others is something that has neither feet nor head, a computer derivative, and that the prestigious publication Wargamer does not recommend buying.

Let's make it clear that I claim the original idea and intellectual property of this game. In July 2018, I proposed my original idea of this game to Avalon, and proposed that we develop the game on the War Across War engine. This was the agreement, and I put name to the game, not Philippe. Avalon introduced me to Miguel Santacruz, his partner or worker, because he spoke Spanish, and knew the free WAW editor. The scenarios was do with my databases, gathered over years, from my degrees in military history of Spanish American independence. I asked my friends for permission for the essential images of the game uses (Headquarters plagiarized those pictures and others, there is no originality here either).

Miguel Santacruz and I made an agreement, my original idea and my intellectual property (and that of all the collaborators and resources) would be respected in the credits of the game, and Headquarters SL can put his brand and exploit the game. Miguel Santacruz told me that he knew nothing about the Spanish-American war of independence, nothing at all. He told me that his business was doing badly. I could offer tree thousand € to pay graphics, I said, and We agreed to talk about repay the costs in the future. We agreed that the player would edit the database with the WAW free editor (the vision of independence changes in each Latin American country, you know) and that the game would come out with the WAW engine. A year later of hard and alone work in the database, hundreds emails (725!) and dozens files shared, in August 2019, Miguel Santacruz introduced his new “Headquarters engine”, replacing the “WAW engine”, but he told me it was an “interface change” only, nothing else (still be used the free WAW editor). No change from the rest what was agreed by the way.

The Crowdfunding arrived and surprisingly there were people I never saw, and sales we never spoke. Miguel Santacruz didn't explain anything, ask me if I wanted to make money, and again reminded me how badly his business was doing. We arrived to February 2020, I told Miguel Santacruz that: free editor not work, new system is neither like Latin American combats was, now combat was slow with outdated animations (anyone would think: what this new engine brings? why that expensive cost of 22 €? ( the WAW engine was worked well, fast, cheap, War Across War was only 9 €); and that there were too many historical errors or without sense; I was patient and I was confident that it could be fixed because the databases of the game had to be given to the players, for their edition with the free WAW editor, historicallly correct, you know.

The result was that Miguel Santacruz through an email let me know that he owned everything (or he thinks so) and he was kicking me out of the project. The first thing I did was to bring Philippe up to speed on this problem, first of all. Philippe didn't care; he told me he didn't know anything about the agreement between Miguel Santacruz and me. Then I was kicked out of the Avalon beta forum and my passwords of the game were taken away. That's when I went to a lawyer to find out who is right and who is wrong. Because, try remove any possible trace of non Headquarters work, 100% even, is not an original idea and not respect the intellectual property in Spain. There are numerous copyright violations involved Spanish publishers and artists, those of Antonio Manzano Lahoz (book "Los Realistas, published by Quiron Ediciones, 1998), Jose Maria Bueno and many others. And from United States of America, César Puliafito from Liberators Grenadier Productions, Ron Poulter from Osprey Publishing's Armies of Bolivar and San Martin.

Title: Re: Libertad o Muerte! (wars of independence of the Spanish Colonies in America)
Post by: WYBaugh on January 14, 2021, 04:27:29 PM
NM
Title: Re: Libertad o Muerte! (wars of independence of the Spanish Colonies in America)
Post by: al_infierno on January 14, 2021, 05:22:41 PM
That comment isn't spam, he seems to be talking about Spanish-American history in the first half of his comment to establish his credentials for the second half, regarding an IP dispute.

If what you allege about intellectual property is true, I hope due process is served quickly.  I backed this project on Kickstarter and abhor the thought of the original idea man getting shafted.
Title: Re: Libertad o Muerte! (wars of independence of the Spanish Colonies in America)
Post by: Gusington on January 14, 2021, 05:24:55 PM
Yes there is some minute detail in that above post.
Title: Re: Libertad o Muerte! (wars of independence of the Spanish Colonies in America)
Post by: WYBaugh on January 14, 2021, 05:53:52 PM
I actually didn't read all the way to the bottom.  I'll modify my post.
Title: Re: Libertad o Muerte! (wars of independence of the Spanish Colonies in America)
Post by: Gusington on January 14, 2021, 06:38:03 PM
^Don't sweat it, I can see how that would be mistaken for spam, for sure.
Title: Re: Libertad o Muerte! (wars of independence of the Spanish Colonies in America)
Post by: Philthib on January 19, 2021, 09:39:30 AM
I think this is the same game posted back in this thread (http://www.grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=23936.msg656089#msg656089).
Quote

Yes, this is it. A good game designed by Miguel Santacruz of HQ.

FYI the following post is just the usual trolling/spamming of a man that has no legal ground whatsoever to what he claims, and his assessments are just his biased vision, not reality. If the IP issue is founded, the story would be in court in Spain already, as I am aware that Miguel has taken the unrelenting libel of the man to his lawyers.
This same one-shot posting was done on Kickstarter and elsewhere and was duly signaled to corresponding managers, and they were removed or warned, as there are no valid proofs of those claims (there is even proof of a totally different story, facts and physical contents). So far, this is all just empty and unfounded rants...

I have been in this game business for over 30 years and I know that publishers and distributors don't tread lightly with IP issues. If there was a serious matter there with solid proof, the products would be already gone. I am just writing this to settle the facts rights and by respect to players here.
Title: Re: Libertad o Muerte! (wars of independence of the Spanish Colonies in America)
Post by: al_infierno on January 19, 2021, 10:07:48 PM
I've heard from the other side, and I'm inclined to ask Petermil to provide evidence to back his claims.  If artwork was actually stolen you should have no problem pursuing that in court.  As for "historical research," I'm not sure you can really claim intellectual property on historical data just because you spent time gathering it.
Title: Re: Libertad o Muerte! (wars of independence of the Spanish Colonies in America)
Post by: airboy on January 21, 2021, 01:17:29 PM
I've heard from the other side, and I'm inclined to ask Petermil to provide evidence to back his claims.  If artwork was actually stolen you should have no problem pursuing that in court.  As for "historical research," I'm not sure you can really claim intellectual property on historical data just because you spent time gathering it.

You can't claim copyright on government documents or other people's work (at least in the USA).  Don't know copyright law outside the USA, although there are some pretty common international standards.
Title: Re: Libertad o Muerte! (wars of independence of the Spanish Colonies in America)
Post by: Petermil on February 03, 2021, 12:53:39 AM
Yes, it is all in the hands of my lawyers.  An open exposition or statement or a confrontation in front of the judge would easily show who knows and who has no idea about the historical subject we are dealing with. But it doesn't work like that. Spain has its own particular laws. About the evidence I can say: there are more than 700 shared emails describing the whole process of creating the game step by step. The judge can read the words of each one.  I have the original map that has been plagiarized, that was my creation, and that is copyrighted. The expert's report proves all this. Of course there is no ownership on images or history freely, but the systematic compilation of a database made for a university degree that has been plagiarized for the purpose for the development of the game also has an intellectual owner.  Also, in due time, I will contact the cartoonists or publishers that have been plagiarized to request a statement.

Look, indeed, I am very angry that these gentlemen are trying to take over someone else's original idea. There are no excuses for bad payers or bad workers. Do not tell me that they are misunderstandings. It is very simple, it is necessary to recognize in the credits the work and the ideas of another person. In the gaming world I think it is simply called "original idea".  This was clear and constantly repeated in the email agreements.  But as the word given is not enough it will have to be elucidated by a judge.  And then they will have to return everything they have borrowed.

(And please, above all, don't lie, if you really think about the players or buyers, don't cheat them by making a garbage game and ruining an original theme)






Title: Re: Libertad o Muerte! (wars of independence of the Spanish Colonies in America)
Post by: al_infierno on February 03, 2021, 01:47:01 AM
Emails?  What is this, a Clinton trial?

I'm really curious to see if this map plagiarism claim pans out.  But if I'm reading you right, it sounds like your claim about the 700 emails amounts to "we had conversations about how the design philosophy of this game," and the other guy went and did the hard work of actually making the game.  Or am I misunderstanding, and you provided actual code that was used in the retail release?
Title: Re: Libertad o Muerte! (wars of independence of the Spanish Colonies in America)
Post by: Petermil on February 03, 2021, 02:04:35 AM
Wait a minute, make no mistake. I do not claim intellectual property of  that computer code.  There are particular laws for computer codes. Evidently the code of this garbage game is not a new creation.  It is not a new code, but a modification of another game about Spanish Civil War dressed up as Latin American Independence. This can also be demonstrated by an expert easily. I do not claim that computer code.

What I claim is intellectual property of  my database and my map in the computer game and the board game. Delaying the publication of the board game, one more time, under new and more extravagant excuses is not going to make me give up my demand. The work was done by me, creating my map, building for years my databases, and do not forgot the hard work transposing my databases to the free game editor.  About the word given. Not honoring the contracts is against the businessman's bad practices to make money. Not against me, a private individual defending his intellectual property. I don't know about other countries but emails are judicial evidence in Spain.  About the plagiarism of my map and databases it has been seen by the expert eye of a judicial expert who can made a report for my lawyers. Yes, plagiarism can be demonstrated.
Title: Re: Libertad o Muerte! (wars of independence of the Spanish Colonies in America)
Post by: Jarhead0331 on February 03, 2021, 04:23:50 AM
Grogheads takes no position with respect to your claim, Petermil. However, we do not want to be used as a platform to discuss claims involving a potential or pending legal action. For that reason, aside from posting reasoned impressions of the actual game, I ask that you cease utilizing our forum to communicate legal accusations or claims of any kind against any party.

I thank you for your cooperation and understanding.