Author Topic: Cold Waters  (Read 90969 times)

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Offline hellfish6

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Re: Cold Waters
« Reply #585 on: April 21, 2020, 08:10:33 AM »
I don't think CMO does that.  It simulates an OODA loop, so the weapons require an amount of time before employment.  Increased crew proficiency decreases the employment time.

This. And CMO simulates a proper C3 chain, so it depends on the tech of the AI (datalink, good coverage of radar assets, etc) how quickly information passes around.
There definitely is no ‘borg spotting’.

That's not totally true, and CMO by default does not simulate a proper C3 chain.

First of all, I say this as a massive fan and early beta tester for CMANO (the original) and a still massive fan of CMO today with thousands of hours in the games.

Here's an example of how borg spotting works in CMANO/CMO:

You might be trying to target a ZSU-23-4 site. You don't know exactly where it is, so you send off a spotter. Let's say it's a UAV. The UAV finds the ZSU, and now every asset that is on the same side of that UAV or is set as an ally of that UAV that is in range can immediately target that ZSU, even though only one UAV has eyes on. The Virginia-class SSN in the Red Sea can fire a Tomahawk at that ZSU site if it's Tehran. There's no chain of command from the UAV operator, though his local ops center/watch floor, to a targeting shop to the submarine's fleet watch floor, to the fleet commander for authorization, to the message traffic and into the SSN skipper's hands. None of those loopholes are modeled - and I'm not even sure if it's possible to do it without heavy LUA scripting. As far as that sub skipper is concerned, he has a live UAV feed and a mensurated, valid Tomahawk target. Ditto, an Osa-class PTG can fire it's ASHMs against a target an allied fishing vessel spotted 40nm away with no need to have spotted it with its own sensors.

Likewise, once a radar detects a target, almost any shooter in range is immediately aware of that target as well and can/will engage it based on player-editable doctrine, the shooter's own capability (does it need a fire control radar, and can the fire control radar see the target, and is the target in range of the weapon?) and OODA loop limitations.

CMO also has target fade - if you don't have a target continuously spotted (via radar, EO, eyeballs, sonar, etc.) the quality of the target fades over time, eventually to the point where you can't target it at all because your area of uncertainty becomes too big.

Now CMO has, over the years, added some mitigating mechanics. No longer can F-15As shoot AMRAAMs at targets the F-15 hasn't detected with onboard systems. Only a handful of platforms have the combined engagement capability (I think most of them are USN platforms) that let, say, an Aegis DDG shoot an SM-6 missile to hit a target on the other side of a mountain range via E-2D radar. Likewise, SARH missiles require the shooter to maintain a lock on the target the whole way in, and the game has added code that ensures that the aircraft/shooter will almost always do this unless under duress - and even do off-boresight/notch guidance.

Additionally, there is the OODA loop, which is modeled at the individual platform level (individual with a rifle or DDG or fighter aircraft) modified by skill level the scenario editor sets. This is completely different from what borg spotting in and generally doesn't affect spotting at all - it only affects how quickly a platform can engage a target.

Edit: Dmitris, the lead CMO dev, is on this forum. I'd love it if he could explain what exactly CMO does and does not do w/r/t spotting. Maybe our definitions of what 'borg spotting' is are not constant. Best I can say is that as long as one of my sensors can see a target in CMO, I can kill that target with any valid weapon system in range regardless of communications or chains of command (certainly not C3 factors). The AI can and will do it to you too.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 08:20:34 AM by hellfish6 »

Offline Skoop

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Re: Cold Waters
« Reply #586 on: April 25, 2020, 10:57:53 PM »
Been exploring Dangerous Waters a bit, found a mod at sub sim that adds all kinds of content for the sim.  Surface and subs playable from Russia, China, Nato, Aussies and more.  Even ASW in a Russian Bear bomber.  It seems that this mods focus is for weekly subsim MP matches for diehards, much like the weekly matches that go on in the Steel Beasts community.  For MP balance some of the non western platforms might have better capabilities for parity with their western counterparts.  You can play SP campaigns and missions with the mod, just have to figure out how to make the eastern platforms perform more as they do in RL or in the 80s at least.

I'd probably dive in deep, but you have to apply a fix to get it to run on windows 10, then I have to find a way for it to run on a full screen monitor at full res cause  1020 x 768 wont cut it.

Graphics are definitely dated, but your staring at sonar displays most of the time, don't think the graphics will matter. 

Offline Toonces

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Re: Cold Waters
« Reply #587 on: April 26, 2020, 10:15:16 AM »
What is the mod?
"If you had a chance, right now, to go back in time and stop Hitler, wouldn't you do it?  I mean, I personally wouldn't stop him because I think he's awesome." - Eric Cartman

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Offline RyanE

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Re: Cold Waters
« Reply #588 on: April 26, 2020, 11:03:24 AM »
Some solid misinformation on CMO going on.  CMO absolutely does show a detailed kill chain with limited borg spotting.  But only if the scenario designer puts it in.  Whether its using disabled comms, siloed organizations, or managed side-switching, all the tools are there.

I have built scenarios where recon flights take off and no one sees what they saw until the return to base.  Its easier than most people think. 

Online Jarhead0331

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Re: Cold Waters
« Reply #589 on: April 26, 2020, 11:32:35 AM »
Some solid misinformation on CMO going on.  CMO absolutely does show a detailed kill chain with limited borg spotting.  But only if the scenario designer puts it in.  Whether its using disabled comms, siloed organizations, or managed side-switching, all the tools are there.

I have built scenarios where recon flights take off and no one sees what they saw until the return to base.  Its easier than most people think.

Where have you been hiding? Good to see you.
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Offline RyanE

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Re: Cold Waters
« Reply #590 on: April 26, 2020, 12:35:09 PM »
Still check in now and then.  But a regular.

Offline Skoop

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Re: Cold Waters
« Reply #591 on: April 26, 2020, 01:24:43 PM »
What is the mod?

It’s called Reinforce Alert or RA.  You can find it at the subsim forum for dangerous waters. 
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 05:48:33 PM by Skoop »

Offline Sir Slash

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Re: Cold Waters
« Reply #592 on: April 26, 2020, 01:53:31 PM »
RyanE wasn't hiding. We just couldn't see him until one of spotted him first.  :P
"Take a look at that". Sgt. Wilkerson-- CMBN. His last words after spotting a German tank on the other side of a hedgerow.

Offline Lowenstaat

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Re: Cold Waters
« Reply #593 on: June 27, 2020, 08:08:58 PM »
For Cold Waters and Jive Turkey fans: Jive Turkey received an audio clip from divers on a Bahamas scuba trip who encountered active sonar.  They asked him to analyze it.  He concluded that the divers were near an ASW exercise, probably taking place in AUTEC. It was fascinating to me to follow along as he explained his analysis using Adobe Audition.

 
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Offline Toonces

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Re: Cold Waters
« Reply #594 on: June 27, 2020, 08:59:48 PM »
That was really neat.  I wouldn't have posted that analysis to YouTube, though. 
"If you had a chance, right now, to go back in time and stop Hitler, wouldn't you do it?  I mean, I personally wouldn't stop him because I think he's awesome." - Eric Cartman

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Offline Toonces

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Re: Cold Waters
« Reply #595 on: February 01, 2021, 07:53:29 PM »
'sup Team.

I'm digging back into Cold Waters again, sort of seeing what the mod possibilities are and checking out some of the stuff the community has done with the game while we await Seapower.

I just recently downloaded a mod: Epic Mod 2.27.  This appears to have a couple of campaigns where you can play as a Russian submarine against U.S. assets.  The creator has translated the place names and other text into English which makes it much more playable now.

The mod is in two parts: 2.27 and then 2.27 Tweaks.

I'm just getting into it now, and hope to have some impressions up later this week.  I continue to believe that this game could have been pushed so much further.  I'm sure hoping Seapower is that push.

Epic Mod 2.27:  https://coldhunter.ru/

2.27 Tweaks: https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=5738

You have to be logged on to Subsim.com to download that second one.
"If you had a chance, right now, to go back in time and stop Hitler, wouldn't you do it?  I mean, I personally wouldn't stop him because I think he's awesome." - Eric Cartman

"Does a watch list mean you are being watched or is it a come on to Toonces?" - Biggs

Online Jarhead0331

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Re: Cold Waters
« Reply #596 on: February 01, 2021, 08:02:19 PM »
Awesome...the language issue was holding me back. Glad to see it’s been translated. Will probably get it now and eagerly await your impressions!
Grogheads Uber Alles
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"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18