Author Topic: Hearts of Iron IV  (Read 237272 times)

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Offline TheMeInTeam

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #1410 on: February 25, 2020, 03:03:54 PM »
That and accurate focus descriptions, functional peace conferences, respectable/coherent algorithm for war contribution, and a better model of "who gets land when troops walk into it" + "who gets capitulations".  Without functional battleplanner + those things the bells and whistles mean little.

Offline bobarossa

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #1411 on: February 25, 2020, 04:27:09 PM »
Some of the mods improve things greatly but the 1.9 patch broke them all for the time being.  I use Black Ice (very detailed) and the Hearts of Oak (moderately detailed) mods.  Hard to go back to vanilla afterwards.  If the previous HOI iterations show us anything, it's that Paradox will never fix the AI adequately. 

Offline solops

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #1412 on: February 25, 2020, 06:39:24 PM »
So, does the game work at all yet? I am one of those who bought it but has put little time into it due to early frustration.
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Offline Rekim

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #1413 on: February 26, 2020, 03:20:20 AM »
I haven't hesitated to purchase previous DLC. Waiting for a sale before picking up La Resistance.

Offline ArizonaTank

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #1414 on: February 26, 2020, 08:35:25 AM »
So, does the game work at all yet? I am one of those who bought it but has put little time into it due to early frustration.

I enjoy it.

By contrast, I really wanted to like HOI III, but the AI had occasional bouts of brain dead syndrome at the grand strategic level. HOI IV does not seem to have this problem. I have not seen HOI IV do brilliant things grand strategy wise, but I also haven't seen stupid mistakes.

However, in HOI IV I don't let the computer run operations (execute plans) for me. I have never been happy with the results and that part seems broken to me. I manually give orders to each unit.
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Offline bobarossa

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #1415 on: February 26, 2020, 08:53:51 AM »
I have seen the Germans in HOI4 send all of their subs through the english channel where they were massacred in the first few months of the war.  Also, it doesn't appear that the AI can recognize the difference between the different division types and how to use them.   I have seen the AI planner place their mobile divisions at the edges of their zone of action while the center of thrust is in the middle.  Also see it placing mountain divisions in plains when there are hills/mountains in the army's area.  Like ArizonaTank, I micromanage the AI's placement of divisions and then micromanage their attacks.  I only use the planner to get the attack bonus for the divisions. 

On the other hand, I really like the new economic system, trading, research and focus trees.  The game falls apart for me once the war starts.  I find the air war to be stupid with teleporting heavy bombers and very low loss rates.  Sorry for the stream of consciousness post.

Offline Philippe

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #1416 on: May 19, 2020, 12:42:27 PM »
I bought Hearts of Iron IV over the weekend and am starting to have second thoughts.

Is the game a serious WW II simulation, or another Paradox alternate history sandbox?

There's a fair amount of complexity in there, but I'm left wondering if they're building a model of the actual history or of a Paradox game system.

I really like the idea of Crusader Kings II, but every time I try to start playing it I come up against the realization that what I'm seeing portrayed in the game is the Crusader Kings II game system and not the Middle Ages.

This isn't a problem for something like Stellaris, because when you're playing a Space Opera, whatever game system the designer chooses is appropriate.

But WW II is a fairly known quantity, so the game shouldn't get too far from the script.

From what I've seen there are only two start dates, 1936 and 1939.  I'm fine with an earlier start date for WW II, though I would have expected July 1937 rather than 1936.  But where are the intermediate staging points?  If there isn't a 1941 start date, the alternate history simulator may have drifted too far off course to give a convincing simulation of the German-Soviet showdown.  And the same holds true for almost every other year of the war.

I haven't logged much time into the game, but I'm already toying with the idea of going for a refund.  But before I do that I'd really like to hear what people here think about it.

And to keep my in-game time to under half an hour, I'll be watching more YouTube videos.
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Offline Rayfer

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #1417 on: May 19, 2020, 12:53:33 PM »
Just my two-cent after putting 350 hours into the game on Steam....it is not a WW2 historic simulator the likes of the Strategic Command series of games. Although it starts out as one it can quickly go off the historic rails, some times because of what choices you make as the leader of a country, but sometimes not.  It also depend on what dlc you have beyond just the vanilla offering.  There are a number of mods that offer varying start and end dates as well. 

Offline Jarhead0331

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #1418 on: May 19, 2020, 01:29:53 PM »
I bought Hearts of Iron IV over the weekend and am starting to have second thoughts.

Is the game a serious WW II simulation, or another Paradox alternate history sandbox?

There's a fair amount of complexity in there, but I'm left wondering if they're building a model of the actual history or of a Paradox game system.

I really like the idea of Crusader Kings II, but every time I try to start playing it I come up against the realization that what I'm seeing portrayed in the game is the Crusader Kings II game system and not the Middle Ages.

This isn't a problem for something like Stellaris, because when you're playing a Space Opera, whatever game system the designer chooses is appropriate.

But WW II is a fairly known quantity, so the game shouldn't get too far from the script.

From what I've seen there are only two start dates, 1936 and 1939.  I'm fine with an earlier start date for WW II, though I would have expected July 1937 rather than 1936.  But where are the intermediate staging points?  If there isn't a 1941 start date, the alternate history simulator may have drifted too far off course to give a convincing simulation of the German-Soviet showdown.  And the same holds true for almost every other year of the war.

I haven't logged much time into the game, but I'm already toying with the idea of going for a refund.  But before I do that I'd really like to hear what people here think about it.

And to keep my in-game time to under half an hour, I'll be watching more YouTube videos.

With all due respect, Philippe, the HOI series has been around for many many years, and it has never been advertised or claimed to be a WWII "simulation". It is broadly known that results occur that wildly deviate from actual historical events. It is a grand strategy game set within the period and background of WWII. Now, the game events and outcomes should still be plausible, and some have debated over the years whether this is the case. Patches, DLC, mods, etc. have all attempted to alter this equation in one way or another.

Anyone going into this game with the expectation that it is going to result in outcomes that are historically accurate 100% of the time is going to be sorely disappointed, as you seem to be. 

In short, if you just want to play out WWII the way it played out historically, this is definitely not going to be your bag. However, if you want to experiment in an effort to try to alter or exceed historical realities, then this game will deliver. Either way, expecting HOI to be something it is not should not be grounds to criticize the game. Paradox is very open about what HOI is, and conversely, what it is not.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 01:33:50 PM by Jarhead0331 »
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Offline hellfish6

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #1419 on: May 19, 2020, 01:41:57 PM »
You bought a Paradox game without expecting it to be a Paradox game?

Maybe try a mod. The Black Ice (BICE) mod gets a bit grittier with the tech tree and division/ship builder mechanics and it's designed to be played historically.

Offline Philippe

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #1420 on: May 19, 2020, 02:05:45 PM »

You bought a Paradox game without expecting it to be a Paradox game?


I bought it because I was wondering why there was a gap in my education and was afraid I might have overlooked something.

I'm not wondering now. 

Finally getting around to buying Hearts of Iron is not analogous to caving in and finally getting the Gary Grigsby East Front monsters. 

I may not play them much, but at least I can see why I might get around to it.

I've uninstalled HOI and applied for a refund.

Whatever happens, the lesson has been learned.
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Offline W8taminute

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #1421 on: May 19, 2020, 02:07:18 PM »
Philippe I highly recommend getting your refund before you exceed the total hours playtime and the time period past the date of purchase.  It sounds to me you're having doubts about the game which is why I recommend this course.

I bought HOI 1-4 and at the time for each game I did like them.  I knew these games would not replay WW2 in Europe or Asia as it did in real life and accepted these games as a 'what if' sandbox.  HOI 4 is probably the most streamlined and easy to get into out of the series but make no mistake it is not a simple game to play.  Non of the HOI series can be grasped in just a few hours of playtime as the learning curve is steep.  There is a strong appeal for this type of game and Paradox has a good fanbase for them. 

My personal experience is if I could return every Paradox game I've ever purchased I would in a heartbeat.  My brain is just too old to deal with steep learning curves associated with Paradox games.  Back when I purchased these games, with the exception of HOI4, I was a lot younger and my brain wasn't crammed with data accumulated from years of living on this planet.  But now that I'm aging I'm finding that I do not have the mental bandwidth to process complex games anymore. 

If you over 50 years of age do yourself a favor and get your money back while you still can.  Unless of course you have the horsepower left in your head to process these games. 

As a footnote I was and still am a strong lover of hardcore complex strategy games but my tolerance for learning is not what it once was.  I would still buy a complex game but only if it had a well documented and easy to follow learning system.
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Offline sandman2575

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #1422 on: May 19, 2020, 02:14:52 PM »
I'd just put out a flyer for another 'serious' mod as an alternative to Black Ice:  Hearts of Oak (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1682664456

I've spent very little time with it -- mostly because I haven't had the urge to get into HOI IV in a long while -- but if I do go back to HOI IV, I definitely want to give this mod a try.

I was a big fan of Black Ice for HOI 3 -- but I think they've gone in the wrong direction with their HOI IV version -- namely, throw in everything and the kitchen sink and make the game as fantastically intricate as possible. It has simply become overwhelming and -- my opinion, but nevertheless -- unplayable

Hearts of Oak seems like a good middle ground between HOI IV vanilla and Black Ice super-complexity.

Offline bobarossa

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #1423 on: May 19, 2020, 03:39:53 PM »
Black Ice 3 was fairly overwhelming in HOI3 (which I just started playing again a few days ago with BICE 10.33).  Hearts of Oak is about halfway between BICE and vanilla in complexity.  Like both except for AI problems.  Prefer to play Hearts of Oak if they get the AI fixed.  Maybe I'm just picky but I quit when I found the latest version caused Great Britain to build only Heavy Tank Divisions once they research the Matilda. 

Offline ExWargamerJoe

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #1424 on: May 20, 2020, 02:50:04 AM »
Personally, I don't quite understand the desire to play out WW2 as it happened beyond single engagements, maybe some theatre stuff like the GG monsters. That entire period played out the way it did due to a series of fairly unique (and hard to recreate) decisions. Like Hitler essentially bluffed his way across Europe to start with right? Because everyone wanted to keep him happy? The Czechs could have perhaps resisted annexation if someone had backed them up etc.,

They'd be no point in creating a strategic/grand strategy experience where all these highly complex decision points are pre-determined. Even looking at something like the Eastern Front, monster games that try to cover the whole thing from start to finish are probably doing a slight disservice to all of the complex happenings that took place across different sections of the front-line. (Not that there's anything wrong with broad strokes though.)
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