Falcon Northwest vs. Alienware vs. NewEgg

[steve58]

Someone should write this this thread up as a (very geeky, admittedly) soap opera.  What will Gus plump for?  Will he be convinced by the brusque economics of JH and Yskonyn or be swayed by the more dulcet arguments of Jason and trek?  Tune in to find out after this word from our sponsors...

I don't find my comments to be brusque, at all. I think they are very well-reasoned, supported by logic and polite.  For that matter, I don't find the arguments of Pratt and trek to be particularly dulcet. Although, I'll admit to having had to look up that word.

"dulcet"?  You mean your Drill Sergeant didn't use that term even once in Boot Camp??   

[Jarhead0331]

Someone should write this this thread up as a (very geeky, admittedly) soap opera.  What will Gus plump for?  Will he be convinced by the brusque economics of JH and Yskonyn or be swayed by the more dulcet arguments of Jason and trek?  Tune in to find out after this word from our sponsors...

I don't find my comments to be brusque, at all. I think they are very well-reasoned, supported by logic and polite.  For that matter, I don't find the arguments of Pratt and trek to be particularly dulcet. Although, I'll admit to having had to look up that word.

"dulcet"?  You mean your Drill Sergeant didn't use that term even once in Boot Camp??   

No. My Drill Instructor had a very limited vocabulary. If it wasn't 4 letters and start with an F, it wasn't worth using.

[Gusington]

This rig will be borne of four fathers. I am happy to say it’s the most research I have put into a rig purchase and even happier to say that I will be saving hundreds of dollars. Friday!!

[JasonPratt]

...so we can infer he used a fork, at least!  (In at least thirty-six different ways to dispatch an enemy!  )

I am entirely aware that I can clumsily put a rig together with components I can shop and buy myself, and save a lot of money, while giving myself a piercing headache over a protracted period of time. I decline to do so from decades of experience -- no one on the planet should ever use a computer built by me, including me! 

Other people can skillfully do that themselves, and have fun doing it, and save themselves a lot of money: definitely the proper choice, for them! I've never said any different, so there has never been any argument from me about that.

If I'm going to spend my own money hiring someone to build my computer during any particular decade, I'm going to take minimal risks for the best results over the longest period of time that I can save up money to afford. That is a logical purchasing strategy under my circumstances, and has saved me a lot of headaches over 20 years. For other people, a different strategy would be much better.


Ysk: "Also, the story about how they are able to configure and match the hardware like nobody else can is crap, you know that right?
They don’t manufacture their hardware, they are assemblers of off the shelf stuff, just like any of us building our own rig."

Also Ysk, literally five seconds later: "That said, it does illustrate that building a rig is not that simple as many sites make it out to believe. You do need to have knowledge or are willing to dive into the deeper dark arts of hardware configuration."

For which you gave a small but important and subtle practical example of this a few posts later; which I technically understand but which many people would not and which I have less than no desire to try to do myself.

FNW spends research time running their own experiments on how to configure and match the hardware they offer (including the hardware's software settings, and the bios settings, and ideal wiring and circuit paths etc.) -- they dearly enjoy doing that, they take great pride in being the best in the world at it, and their skill has repeatedly been shown in the final test results in competitions with other professional rig builders across decades now. I've talked to Matthew up there off and on for 20 years, along with a couple of other guys, and (much like me) they'll segue off into fascinating trivia discussions at the least excuse -- in their case, about tests they've been doing to carefully maximize performance. They like to chat shop; not ONCE have they ever chatted shop as a way to upsell me on something, ever. On the contrary, they've warned me off paying for various pieces of hardware, when I had questions about them, every single time I've contacted them personally for a quote (more than only for my own rigs). They don't encourage ordering any rig from them without carefully talking it out first, in person, often to DOWNQUOTE out unnecessary or trivially superior components.

So, no, I don't know that the story about how they're able to configure and match the hardware like nobody else can, is crap. They're highly competitive professionals in a very niche and thin market going up against other highly competitive professionals, and all the evidence I've gotten from them in personal experience and from tech journalists comparing the merits of various rig designers (even when some of those occasionally edge out FNW on performance), points uniformly in the other direction.

More importantly, they're able to configure and match the hardware a damn sight better than I can. So do plenty of people, all over the world! But unlike any of those other people, FNW has earned my repeat business. Partly by not needing to repeat my business much with them at all. 

That is not an argument that Gus or anyone else should use them over any other option. I look forward to hearing about the merits of whatever builder Gus ends up using (if he doesn't end up building it himself). 

This rig will be borne of four fathers. I am happy to say it’s the most research I have put into a rig purchase and even happier to say that I will be saving hundreds of dollars. Friday!!

I'm certainly glad to have been of any help. 

[Yskonyn]

My point was that their ‘knowledge’ is being put to use at exorbitant prices as illustrated by Jarheads linked options which will save you much cash.
I don’t think there is an embargo on stating your views here, but if my attempts of making a case for saving you money is taken as being brusque or not wanted, just say so.
We don’t have to act as toddlers who get their lollipop taken away, now do we?   (smileys are used to make SURE this is not taken personally, but tongue in cheek)

I fully understand people paying a hundred or two on warranty and support, but whenever it reaches a thousand or more it just becomes robbery in my opinion.
I am trying to look out for you guys!  Especially since you explicitly tell time and again you’re not savvy with this stuff. There really are cheaper options with similar dependability and stableness of your system.
And while all counter arguments of why FNW and their kin ARE in fact the masters of their trade, still doesn’t change that in my opinion they ask outrageous prices for it. Wether thats something you are ok with paying for is highly subjective and none of my business (obviously).
But to be fair, I do see a lot of ‘confirmation bias’ towards FNW and its kin in this discussion.

Jarhead already posted in depth examples, so I didnt think I could add to that. Besides I am not aware of options in the US, so thats better served by others.

Love. 

[airboy]

The discussion has been a cordial as it can be.

I just bought another FNW system this Fall.  Why? - It will work right out of the box, at high performance, and I don't have to mess with it until it is obsolete.  It is also quiet and if I have any problems (even long after the warranty has expired) they will talk me through it on the phone.

I'm paying a price premium for something that I use for hours every day that I don't have to ever worry about (except to clean the area every six months).  I agree that if you have the skill set you can build your own for a fraction of the price.  If you know what you are doing, plan to replace the machine every 3-4 years, you can buy a similar machine for much less.

My three FNW systems ran absolutely flawlessly.  One I kept for 7 years until it was obsolete for what I want to play.  The other two are too recent to have encountered any issues at all.

I have also driven Toyotas for decades - currently a Prius with 70,000 miles on it.  Why? - I don't have any issues with something I rely on every day.  Do the routine maintenance and the car will continue to operate without problems for longer than a decade.  Same reasons I purchase FNW.

If you value what Jason & I value - FNW is a reasonable price to pay.  If you have different skills (or if money is tighter), then other options are clearly superior.

[trek]

This has been a great thread. Ysonkyn, I admire your passion and honesty on the subject. As the "Old Man" (73 years old now) on this forum I have a somewhat different perspective. My background and career was 35 years at a big city newspaper. As a young man and before the advent of personal computers I was like many of my friends a fanatical audiophile. There were two companies around that sold audio electronic kits: Heath and Lafayette. So, my first 100-watt amp I built from a Heath Kit.

At the newspaper I was working in the News department for the first five years and after marriage and two young daughters the odd hours, many working nights encouraged me to seek out another job with better hours within the company. With my aptitude for electronics I went into Systems & Engineering, spent some time on the help desk, then went into Tech Services and finally got a job doing research, fact-checking and archiving as well as handling all the facets of the paper's electronic media.

Part of my job was buying systems and brainstorming with others on what to purchase. No matter how well we at times researched and vetted a new system or product many times they did not work well together with other systems. Our computer room was a half-city block in size and contained over 80 different systems as well a satellite bank for the eight large dishes on the roof of the building. When we at times had a heavy snow storm we even had to go up on the roof and sweep the snow off of the sat dishes!

My point here is that what you said about components working or not working together is crap certainly has some truth to it. But, when you go through the steps in building a high-performance PC and say you're choosing between A-B or C of the same component there WILL be a difference in how well they perform with each other on specific high-demand programs. Falcon seems to always spec the ones that co-perform with each other the best. And no, I don't think they sit on Roses. I just like the way they do business and I'm willing to pay for it. Their lifetime support to me is priceless.

On a similar note concerning paying for something more expensive than another, I'm lusting after the new mid-engine Corvette. First time I've ever even considered a exotic and very expensive automobile but I like mid-engine European Sports cars and the new Vette is the first one. I will never buy it as I could never justify to myself spending that kind of money on a car. Also my other passion is cycling which I've been doing since 1974. I have a $9,000 Time-Trial Racing bike which I CAN justify the price to myself whereas I can't with a car as I still do some competitive racing. So, go figure where my mind is at!

On the topic of long-term support and standing behind you product here is a recent example: I have two Bose Cinemate 2.1 Sound Systems. One in my living room and one in my den. I bought them from Circuit City 15 years ago. Couple weeks back the interface module and cable stopped working. Got on the Bose website and under support found that they STILL stock a replacement for $80.00. They also stock the original replacement remote as well as the speaker stands. That to me is remarkable in this day and age of throw-away electronics.

I used to build my PC's but in 2008 I decided in my retirement that I no longer wanted to spend the time doing so. Like all of us I did all the research and read the reviews and made calls to the various vendors. After multiple calls I liked what I heard from Falcon. Of course I knew they were more expensive but I'm finally at the age I can afford to pay the price.

I guess my final point on all this is that we all drink the kool-aid on our decision making to a point it's just that the kool-aid comes in different flavors. At my age I've come to the conclusion that what we are is the sum of our life experiences and that is really what informs our decision-making process. When I bought my first small form factor PC in 2007 from another company for LAN Parties with friends it had an AMD Chip and graphics card. At that time considered the best bang for the buck. In several instances it had problems running a couple games I had whereas friends with Intel and Nvidia had none with the same games. Hence I have a bias against AMD and always stick with Intel and Nvidia. I know AMD has improved and is right up there now with competitors but still that is my own personal experience bias. At the end of 2008 I bought my first Fragbox from Falcon and never looked back.
 
I WILL say that you guys have piqued my interest in CLX and I checked out their website and their systems look good. I would suggest to Gus that he opt for the Asus ROG Strix motherboard and the Samsung 970 EVO Plus 2-TB SSD though as I think they are the best of those two components. I also know that New Egg is a good outfit but I think a buyer is always better off buying directly from the PC manufacturer for initial and long-term support if you need it.
 
And I will say again I really admire all you younger guys energy and passion on our hobby. Reminds me of myself years ago. I have the mantra that "you never stop learning no matter how old you get" and that's why I come here.

Happy Turkey Day to you all!

[Gusington]

^Great post! Thoughtful. The rig I am replacing now is an ASUS and it has been excellent, if a little quirky - but the quirky is more from weird application behavior on occasion than the hardware itself.

Two days to go!

[Yskonyn]

Great post, trek! 

In the end it isn’t my or anyone else’s business telling you guys what to spend your money on. It’s not a matter of ‘being right’.  I hope I didn’t come across as trying to, because it wasn’t about that from the start at all.

And I fully agree on your points made about spending money on whatever doesn’t always have to be about the numbers, but its also about emotion and piece of mind. Fair enough.
And the tolerance bandwidth here is variable.

In the cockpit we have this thing called ‘elastic boundaries’. Whenever people start to operate out of the normal you end up in the ‘elastic boundary realm’.
This boundary is elastic, because how far the hard limit for any individual lies is dependent on various factors like experience, cooperation with the given colleague in past events, your emotional state, etc.

Coming back on topic; when I read through this thread I reach my elastic boundary’s hard limit in terms of pricing in relation to the subject.
I can get vocal about it, but it comes from a good heart. I just have a hard time accepting you actually might WANT to pay premium for it. But everyone can tell me off without me throwing a tantrum. We’ve been around each other here long enough, I’d say. 

[Gusington]

YOU’RE WRONG

 

[Yskonyn]

I love being WRONG around the RIGHT people, though.

[Gusington]

 

[trek]

Ysonkyn, no worries everything is cool. Your enthusiasm is infectious and you're probably at the top of your game in life.

I also liked JH's old quote about "leading a horse to water". A couple blocks from where I worked in Wash. DC was the National Geographic HQ. They had a museum included in the building with a small auditorium. Every few weeks they would have a speaker come in for a "brown bag lunch" event at 12:00 noon. It was open and free to the public. So, I went to one where the speaker was a guy who had formed an old fashioned expedition in Egypt to follow the Nile River down to it's source. He was a real character and very funny.
 
Anyway, he started out his presentation with a joke lead-in: "So I formed this expedition with a caravan of camels and pack mules. Our mission was to trace the source of the Nile. The longest and I might add the dirtiest river in the world. It was so dirty that the camels and pack mules would lie down and play dead when it came time to water them."  I think the laughter from that opening lasted a least an entire minute and set the stage for a great presentation.

I am worried about my mental well-being right now because the most exciting thing I'm looking forward to about Friday is finally finding out which PC rig Gus is going to buy. Seems like we should be able to set up a "Let's Make a Deal" game show type presentation with the question: "Is it Door Number 1, 2 or 3?

[Father Ted]

I am worried about my mental well-being right now because the most exciting thing I'm looking forward to about Friday is finally finding out which PC rig Gus is going to buy. Seems like we should be able to set up a "Let's Make a Deal" game show type presentation with the question: "Is it Door Number 1, 2 or 3?"

There could be a cliff-hanger...

[Gusington]

I am quite the exciting guy. I definitely know which way I am leaning, however - would it be wiser to wait for Cyber Monday to buy as opposed to Black Friday, since I am 100% certain I am buying online? Or will there be no real difference between the two? Just thought of that last night while staring at the ceiling trying to fall asleep.

And isn't the Ganges more filthy than the Nile? It has to be! I don't know how we could compare the two without flying down that rabbit hole that none of us really want to go down.