GrogHeads Forum

Digital Gaming => Computer Gaming => Topic started by: gameleaper on November 27, 2016, 04:43:54 AM

Title: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: gameleaper on November 27, 2016, 04:43:54 AM
I recently started playing crusader kings 2 and bought the Europa Universalis games, so I'm all set for xmas, but I was looking for similar grand strategy games and there are not many to choose from that I could find.

dose anybody know of any complex games like these, I have seen hearts of iron and civ etc.. but I'm looking for something I have not seen
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: Yskonyn on November 27, 2016, 05:59:03 AM
It looks like you have some great games to hold you over! Why look for the next best thing while these are top notch? Enjoy them. :)
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: gameleaper on November 27, 2016, 07:25:03 AM
just been watching youtube, wow I am set :)
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: bbmike on November 27, 2016, 08:40:20 AM
If you mean EU4, there's a lot of game there. You can even randomize the New World and create your own country with the right DLC!
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: Toonces on November 27, 2016, 11:51:37 AM
I really enjoyed the Rome version of ck2.  Vae victus I think it's called.  Worth checking if you're looking for more of that type of goodness.
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: gameleaper on November 27, 2016, 11:54:24 AM
ck2 is a great different sort of rpg I like it  :) Eu4 is amazingly complex I like it too :) 
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: Martok on November 27, 2016, 11:59:04 AM
gameleaper, if a grand-strategy title set in space sounds at all interesting, I'd strongly recommend Stellaris (http://www.stellarisgame.com/) from Paradox.  It contains a lot of elements from their CK/EU games, but in a futuristic/sci-fi setting.  I find it to be a hell of a lot of fun. 
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: gameleaper on November 27, 2016, 12:17:16 PM
Ive had my eye on it as its on sale, I like the auto combat in space rather than micro manage it,  I was thinking more about the Hearts of Iron IV , but I read the A.I. may need work, anyone played it? but you've put stellaris back on my mind now :)
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: Nefaro on November 27, 2016, 01:54:18 PM
Quote from: Toonces on November 27, 2016, 11:51:37 AM
I really enjoyed the Rome version of ck2.  Vae victus I think it's called.  Worth checking if you're looking for more of that type of goodness.

EU:Rome had quite a few problems, and needed more filling-out even after the expansion. 


I've been hoping, above all others, that Paradox would do a new official EU: Rome 2 and give it the depth it deserves.  Would be well-served with a CK2 type of setup methinks.
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: JasonPratt on November 27, 2016, 02:18:06 PM
^^ Especially if they managed even a theoretical campaign synch (as with CK2 and EU4). I suppose for that to happen they would need to fill in the missing Grand Invasions blanks and start in the mid-300s with the split of the Western and Eastern Empire (after significant factions in the west rebel), then bring it up to the current start of CK2 in Charlemagne's day, as the first edition of VV2. (Which would thus also cover the rise of Islam up to its high watermark in Moorish Spain before Charles the Great defended Frankish Europe and started the pushback.)

Then Paradox could add expansions going farther back in time, however far they liked, perhaps terminating for VV2 with the fall of the republic and the rise of the Caesars (Julius / Augustus, etc.). The idea being that they could then create a 4th game leading to the Roman Empire with the rise of the Roman Republic.

Then a 5th game centering on events of Alexander's rise and heirs up to the start of the Roman Republic.

Then a 6th game centering on events of pre-Alexander Hellenism, probably with a focus on Persia's rise over the Assyrian empires and their eventual war with the Hellenic states.

Let's see, before that... a game spotlighting the Assyrian superstates I suppose? Eventually you're going to get back into the time of the rather unique period of the Davidic/Solomnic micro-empires and the cluster of Levantine micro-states which with the weakened Egypt and Syrian macro states nearby assumed a much greater local importance out of proportion to their size. Lottttts of royal family drama there, and reasonably well documented, too.  O0 :coolsmiley:
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: gameleaper on November 28, 2016, 02:06:15 AM
Thought You Guys May be interested in the games I found For Xtra Strategy Simular to EU4

I got

EU3 and HoI3 and March of the Eagles.
Making History the great war
Making history II war of the world
+ DLC Red Army
Plus there are some other Making History Games for Cheap
Hearts Of Iron IV
Sengoku
Victoria 2

Im now ready for Xmas
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: glen55 on November 28, 2016, 04:34:29 PM
Quote from: gameleaper on November 27, 2016, 12:17:16 PM
Ive had my eye on it as its on sale, I like the auto combat in space rather than micro manage it,  I was thinking more about the Hearts of Iron IV , but I read the A.I. may need work, anyone played it? but you've put stellaris back on my mind now :)

Yes, the HOI 4 AI needs a lot of work, and unfortunately the history of the series suggests it will never really be adequate. In particular, if you are looking forward to modeling the air/naval war in the Pacific, . . . don't.
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: mikeck on November 28, 2016, 09:49:07 PM
Check out Nobunaga's ambition: sphere of Influence. It is very deep and your spend a lot
Of time trying to recruit enemy generals to spy, come over to you -or better yet- sabotage the enemy fighting force. I've sent out generals at the head of armies who simply stop matching, refuse to fight and then join the enemy. LOTS of characters to assign, move around and kill like CK2
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: gameleaper on November 29, 2016, 05:14:55 AM
ok No air war :(

Does Nobunaga's ambition: sphere of Influence use real time battles, it looks like shogun?
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: Nefaro on November 29, 2016, 11:22:33 AM
Quote from: gameleaper on November 29, 2016, 05:14:55 AM
ok No air war :(

Does Nobunaga's ambition: sphere of Influence use real time battles, it looks like shogun?

Seamless real-time, in a separate phase of the turn after orders are done.  It's not terribly deep, mostly ordering your Generals to take a specified amount of troops & supplies down road paths to attack/defend.  There are a few simplistic options during the battle, but I never felt compelled to take control from the AI.

Nobunaga's is about ordering your subordinate leaders around to build and manage your domain & armies.  If you enjoy the strategic aspect of grand strategy, then it may be for you.

I just re-installed it last night because I've been wanting a historical grand strategy game with a different flavor.  One in which the battles can be resolved fairly quickly, and without too much twitchy micro-management, yet still has some satisfying empire management.

Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: gameleaper on November 29, 2016, 11:39:50 AM
thx Nef, its on offer for about an hour left of the sale, I'm a bit drained of cash, but I will have to look at it a bit now quick smart
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: HoodedHorseJoe on November 30, 2016, 11:10:06 AM
This is easily one of my go-to games at the moment. EUIV is in such a good place post Rights of Man expansion. I don't consider it strictly speaking a 'wargame', so we don't cover it a lot on the site, but I'm finding ways to expand the scope that make sense so it does slip in every now and then.

[SHAMELESS PLUG] For example, my recent article looking at how Patch 1.19 changes the 'meta' of warfare in EUIV: http://www.wargamer.com/news/meta-warfare-europa-universalis-iv-and-patch-1-19/
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: gameleaper on November 30, 2016, 11:39:19 AM
EU4 stuff is not a plug , its essentials :)
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: Philippe on November 30, 2016, 01:34:28 PM
I'm afraid I lost a lot of enthusiasm for EU IV when it became impossible to reduplicate Columbus' first crossing of the Atlantic in anything resembling the historical voyage.

I don't have anything against alternate history, but not when it includes an aparent allergy for the real thing.
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: Barthheart on November 30, 2016, 01:42:31 PM
Yeah... that kind of bummed me out as well... they were able to have it happen in all the past versions....
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: Raied on November 30, 2016, 03:34:19 PM
I lost interest in all paradox games recently, their direction is to emphasize on freedom of choices and forcing alternative history, most new paradox gamers like this direction, and that is good, but for me history and plausible outcomes what made me originally love those games. If I want alt history and all crazy things could happen I will be playing Civ games.
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: Gusington on November 30, 2016, 08:27:57 PM
The EU games have always been beyond my understanding. I never felt like I was actually playing anything, but just x-ing out a series of message boxes until I got to the last one that read: 'you lose.'
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: gameleaper on December 01, 2016, 01:17:07 AM
I'm sure I have seen the Columbus 3 ships Pinta etc in a DLC on youtube, and in the vanilla I think its one ship, but It looked possible to do with colonests and conquistadores. you need these to venture into the unknown map locations.

It was complex and unplayable for me, but after studying the game I would feel awful now if I didn't have it, and simpler games just don't do it for me now, it dosnt seem that difficult after learning it.
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: HoodedHorseJoe on December 01, 2016, 10:29:18 AM
I think this struggle between "History" and "Sandbox" has always been something Paradox have been grappling with. Hearts of Iron IV feels this problem way more acutely.

The thing is, History happened because of the choices that were made. It's extremely hard to offer that without railroading the player (which is basically what Hearts of Iron III did). It's essentially down to pure luck that history happened the way it did, and it could have easily not happened that way. I think perhaps the 'True' history of the world has gotten lost somewhat in current EUIV, but the sand-box direction they've gone in makes the game better.

Even in vanilla EUIV though, apart from key events it was nigh on impossible to keep things on the true path because of AI and player agency.

Honestly, if you wanted actual history, you wouldn't be playing a game at all, you'd be watching a documentary.
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: Barthheart on December 01, 2016, 11:03:22 AM
Yeah.. the old "if you want history go read a book" thing.... I read lots of books on history... sometimes I want to play in it too.  :)
I'm OK with sandbox type games but things should be at least doable as they happened in history.

Right now, or at least the last time I played EUIV, you couldn't possibly make Columbus' Atlantic journey because all yer ships will sink... period. It's the way they have setup the attrition rate, or whatever they call it, for early ships. Now, the only feasible way to get to the new world is the short hope from Africa to South America.... even with the best admiral/explorer and teched up ships.

It just makes you think that if they can't get that "simple" thing to be doable in their model of the world then how much more of the model is flawed....
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: HoodedHorseJoe on December 01, 2016, 11:33:40 AM
Quote from: Barthheart on December 01, 2016, 11:03:22 AM
Yeah.. the old "if you want history go read a book" thing.... I read lots of books on history... sometimes I want to play in it too.  :)
I'm OK with sandbox type games but things should be at least doable as they happened in history.

Right now, or at least the last time I played EUIV, you couldn't possibly make Columbus' Atlantic journey because all yer ships will sink... period. It's the way they have setup the attrition rate, or whatever they call it, for early ships. Now, the only feasible way to get to the new world is the short hope from Africa to South America.... even with the best admiral/explorer and teched up ships.

It just makes you think that if they can't get that "simple" thing to be doable in their model of the world then how much more of the model is flawed....

When was the last time you played it? The generic exploration rules yeah can be quite harsh, and it can be quite tough to get places... but I think there are Columbus specific event chains now. He's definitely a recruitable person that you get, but haven't played Portugal in a while so haven't tested it.
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: Barthheart on December 01, 2016, 11:39:26 AM
It was a few DLC's ago that I played so maybe it's been fixed. I did recruit Columbus, as Spain, managed to get Portugal to lend me their port in Azores and sent him to find NA by sailing "straight" across...and lost him at sea... repeatedly... over many game re-starts...  :pullhair:

But maybe that's been fixed since. I'm way behind on DLC's so maybe if there's a big Christmas sale I'll catch up and try again... definition of insanity  :idiot2:....
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: Nefaro on December 01, 2016, 01:58:51 PM
Quote from: Barthheart on December 01, 2016, 11:03:22 AM
Yeah.. the old "if you want history go read a book" thing.... I read lots of books on history... sometimes I want to play in it too.  :)


Then other much more military oriented games are what you're looking for.  The AGEOD series is a good example of a large scale strategy game that generally follows the history. 

The key being that the a-historical "sandbox" is removed when you don't have much Diplomacy or Economic control.  In other words 4X games and other similar grand strategy titles shouldn't be on your list if you want history to be followed pretty well.
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: OJsDad on December 01, 2016, 02:06:33 PM
BH, I understand what your saying, and need to fire up EUIV again and try as Spain and see how it goes.  From your example above, it does sound like an issue with the way exploration and ship voyage work can make it impossible. 

But I also agree with WGJoe.  The further you get from a starting point, the more difficult its going to be to replicate.  I was playing as Spain once in EUIII and late in the game got a historical bankruptcy event.  It didn't matter how well you were doing, it always fired, because it was historical.  Kind of ruined the game at that point. 
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: Barthheart on December 01, 2016, 02:16:40 PM
Right guys, I understand about games wandering off from history... but to not even be able to recreate Columbus' voyage seems odd and bad design.. to me. His ability to make the voyage, in a purely mechanical sense, should have nothing to do with whether I've conquered the entire Iberian Peninsula, or all of France, by 1453, for example. With the same ship types and tech that Columbus used in real life I should be able to recreate his journey.

When I play EUIV I'm not looking to replicate history but I'd like to be able to recreate some of it within the boundaries of reality....
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: OJsDad on December 01, 2016, 02:22:11 PM
Yep, I agree with you on that issue BH. 
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: JasonPratt on December 01, 2016, 04:34:29 PM
I seem to recall that Columbus almost didn't make it -- partly due to his insistent miscalculation about the circumference of the Earth which everyone kept trying to warn him was wrong, and that he wouldn't have the supplies he needed.

Sooooo.... maybe him failing regularly in EU4 is actually historical?  >:D
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: Nefaro on December 01, 2016, 08:22:15 PM
For EU, I just accept that he's already made the journey. 

I mean - we all know there is a lot of land mass to discover in the western hemisphere.  Even though we can't see it.  Your little digital ship captains wouldn't already know that, so one of them must've found out.  Just a race to colonize, in EU.
Title: Re: Europa Universalis, please sir can I have some MOOR :) ?
Post by: Barthheart on December 01, 2016, 08:38:00 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on December 01, 2016, 04:34:29 PM
I seem to recall that Columbus almost didn't make it -- partly due to his insistent miscalculation about the circumference of the Earth which everyone kept trying to warn him was wrong, and that he wouldn't have the supplies he needed.

Sooooo.... maybe him failing regularly in EU4 is actually historical?  >:D

I can accept him failing.. even a lot... but to have it not possible at all?