CM: Black Sea Strategy Discussion Thread

[endfire79]

^ Dredd, I think I'm going to get shredded in this game.  That's a long wait.  I think I'll have a long learning curve ahead

[JudgeDredd]

Oh I wasn't just meaning this game. And it's totally subjective. People will totally react differently probably. But I do feel under pressure with a  timer and I have no idea how long it's going to take me to move across xKM of terrain, which compounds the issue.

Of course, the time constraint is a real world issue. But not knowing how long it will take your troops to slow, quick, move, fast move and assault across terrain (and how much each of those will affect fatigue) seriously affects your judgement within the game.

[sandman2575]

The CMx2 games require good tactics. You need to scout, you need to plan, and you need to exercise caution. If you "hurry up so you can get to the good stuff" as a recent poster put it, you better play on the lowest difficulty levels, because otherwise you're going to get shredded.

This is exactly right.  Your default mode in CMx2 has got to be 'cautious'.  Knowing under what circumstances to go 'aggressive' is what's going to separates successful from frustrated players. But aggressive definitely cannot be standard operating procedure if you want to succeed.

[Nefaro]

It's not just that.

It's also "programmed" into you from the game. It's very difficult to gauge how long it's going to take you to cross the map, engage and take objectives. So if you have 30 minutes or 3 hours means virtually nothing. You don't know how long to wait until that smoke arrives. You don't know how long to spend scouting that first kilometre. You order an airstrike on an area you know to contain enemy and it's really, REALLY difficult (and against the grain) to sit and do nothing for 6 minutes waiting for that airstrike! You're always thinking about where you have to get to and with no idea of how long it will take you to do so.

Add on to all that uncertainty the certainty that you have 60 minutes to complete the task, and you're bound to throw caution to the wind.

As an example, and maybe the other end of your problem, is I tend to baby step forward...then realising time is moving and I have a shit load of map to cover, I then throw caution to the wind - only to be mowed down....even though my first half hour showed no contact (or very little and far away).

I've just lost 2 T72's in quick succession in my game because I cautiously advanced for the first 20 minutes and, meeting nothing, went forward more than I should've...mainly because I was aware of the time and how far I had to go.

JD makes a great point.

With a hard time limit, you don't often have the luxury of taking the time to probe at your leisure.  I always felt very rushed in the CMx2 series, as if I was fighting the timer more than the enemy. 

They should consider a soft timer which very slowly adds a penalty to your end result the longer you go past the end.  Perhaps the creators would consider this too easy, but it has always felt like the attacker is too rushed to use a methodical approach and is forced into sacrificing more casualties for speed if using the tactics suggested previously in this thread.

Hard time limits used as a large part of the difficulty just isn't as enjoyable in one-off scenarios IMO.  At least ones which force you to throw caution to the wind.  The timer was always an issue in CMSF and CMBN with me, especially if I decided to use turn-based mode, because it would just force me to push risky suicide attacks in the latter part just like JD mentioned.  :-\

[TacticalWargames]

Played a few hours today and even though I'm an East front obsessive I'm tending to think this is the best CM yet. The stock graphics for starters are streets ahead I feel on previous titles, esp the terrain.

The selection of toys is a joy and so far the scenarios I've played  have been superbly designed and have excellent terrain features\layout.

A HUGE thumbs up from me. Far exceeds my already high expectations!

I can't wait for future modules.

[Grim.Reaper]

For those that prefer not to play the game with a timer, can't you just use the scenario editor and select the largest timer option possible?  Not sure if changing the timer impacts the designed scenario, but might be worth a shot since it only takes two seconds to change.

[jomni]

Do you guys play Iron?  That's the only level I play in CMSF.  But wondering if I should lower it down since I'm having a hard time. 

[Grim.Reaper]

Do you guys play Iron?  That's the only level I play in CMSF.  But wondering if I should lower it down since I'm having a hard time.

Heck no:)  Since I am not very good at the game, I rarely stray above Veteran level, especially when starting out.  I know pretty lame, but rather have fun than frustrate myself right now:)

[panzerde]

Do you guys play Iron?  That's the only level I play in CMSF.  But wondering if I should lower it down since I'm having a hard time.

I've been playing at Iron, but it is tough. Much tougher than CMSF. You are definitely going to take more casualties than in CMSF, even if you are careful.

[Cyrano]

I'm not a fan of "Iron" as all it does is mess about with your ability to spot your own men...

I prefer "Elite" over all...

Combat still as brutal as Doug describes.

[jomni]

Thanks I guess I'll forget about Iron and Elite for now since the additional rules relate to information discovery.  I'm now looking at 2 levels... Veteran and Warrior.  Which one is recommended? 
I suspect most canned scenarios are made with Veteran in mind. 

[TacticalWargames]

WEGO- Elite for me.

[MikeGER]

WEGO- Elite for me.

+1

Jommi,
the difference to Warrior is only that it is not immediately revealed what battlefield-function an enemy infantry contact has, so player cant (gamy) priories to go for HQ and ATs, before they have given themself away
(and ammo from dumps are not distributed automatically between all units any more?)

The difference Warrior to Veteran is shortend times for Med Evac (abstractly handled) and Artillery and Air Support in 'Veteran'-setting
On the 2017 modern battle field those times are already short compared to WW II ....so 'Elite' in CMBS feels already somehow like 'Veteran' concerning reaction times in CMRT  ;)
i recommend the Elite-setting

@Judge
you can load the scenario in the editor and change the setting to variable length
IIRC there is a random extra-time added.
I also like Nefaro's house rule of: add time and give yourself a point penalty for every minute 'overtime'

Concerning the movement speeds dilemma
As a physichist i would recommend to do a field experiment ;-) in the training scenarios, if you really want to calc sometimes later instead of gut instincts:
Just let a generic team quick, hunt, or crawl 200m in different terrains (maybe wood, field, town) ...and note the times they need each 25 m and when then exhaust level changes.
Assault is different, you can decide the number of leapfrog-points used (there is one leapfrog between start and target point)  so just let them assault a typical short distance you would order with one leap frog in the middle and note that time  ...a longer distance is covered by chaining shorter assault commands, so you generate the number of leapfrogs you would feel comfortable on that given longer distance           

[jomni]

Well I played Warrior just now and it doesn't really improve my results compared to Iron. :D
I'll try Elite next.

By the way, can the UAV in observation mission help in plotting artillery? I read it in the manual but I don't know how to actually do it?

[JudgeDredd]

Thanks MikeGer...I might just do that. I presume that's not a problem for campaign missions? Also, how do I know what missions to change? I don't want to load the campaign, then the scenario and then go out to change it to log back in again...especially as it takes between 5 and 10 minutes to load my game.

What I would love (and I know I'm probably in a minority because people like to know how they won) is the removal of the scoring aspect. I would like to see me presented with my objectives in the briefing. Even have some of them be given importance (primary, secondary). Then at the end of the battle, not being shown the stats and the points given, but a more general an military style debriefing where I'm told a good job was done and we've received our next mission. The stats for me ruin the military feel. You of course need to know your casualties.

Overall - this is turning out to be a superb experience. As someone mentioned, stock graphics are a high standard. The terrain especially seems to be very undulating - at least in my attempt to secure a crossing at the Dnieper.

One thing I don't get is the time delay. So I have a couple of 120mm mortars and a couple of bad ass self propelled guns waiting. I get my spotters into a position and order a barrage of linear smoke...and I'm told it'll take 8 minutes. 8 MINUTES? I was never a spotter or had to call arty irl, but I did know a gunnery sergeant and I'm pretty sure, the way he explained receiving orders, laying spotting lines and firing that he'd be chewing serious arse if his team were taking 8 minutes to lay down smoke.

And this kind of thing ties in with the above mention on the time...what exactly do you do for 8 minutes. That's a long time to sit and twiddle your thumbs. You can't really move. The whole point of the smoke is to give your troops a chance to cross open ground. So you are literally sitting there holding your troops back

BUT - this is a huge thumbs up. I need to check a couple of things - but overall, superb gameplay.

And I play either Elite or Veteran...never anything else.