So, sounds like several governments, including the U.S., are reversing their "UFOs are fiction" position. And society has not collapsed. Go figure. Does make you wonder what is and has been going on. Makes you wonder if our governments surrendered a long time ago without consulting us, in return for special consideration for "special persons". The whole thing throws us out into silliness....except that it might not be. Heck. Earth may already be a Vichy France puppet state.
UFO's, in the form of unidentified flying objects NOT confirmed aliens, sighted by the US navy have been in the press lately and are undeniable. That is probably all it is. Pilots have been seeing objects that they cannot identify that are ridiculously fast and change direction in an instant.
Here is the related fighter pilot podcast talking about the really old sightings. But recently it seems they have been seeing them again (I think)
Quote from: solops on May 16, 2021, 10:48:33 PM
So, sounds like several governments, including the U.S., are reversing their "UFOs are fiction" position. And society has not collapsed. Go figure. Does make you wonder what is and has been going on. Makes you wonder if our governments surrendered a long time ago without consulting us, in return for special consideration for "special persons". The whole thing throws us out into silliness....except that it might not be. Heck. Earth may already be a Vichy France puppet state.
The technology that propels these crafts is so far advanced beyond anything we are capable of even understanding that I believe the beings who created them would have simply no need or interest to negotiate with our governments or to conduct any form of clandestine diplomacy - we don't have anything that they could not take with ease, so I really do not buy that kind of an argument.
The reason for the shift I believe is two fold. One, camera and tracking equipment has advanced to the point where there is simply no plausible form of deniability at this point. Seeing is really believing. Second, I believe these objects now represent a very credible national security threat that needs to be addressed publicly. These objects violate our most secure airspace with impunity and have, from what I understand, interfered with our most sensitive operations, some of which involve nuclear power and weapons.
I think admitting there is a problem is the first step toward coming together to work toward some form of a defense.
JH, That would be the good explanation. But, MAYBE we are tasty or would make good cannon fodder for their Vietnam or tribute to a third party. Maybe it has taken them this long to establish a solid base here to prep for the big reveal (the end of a long supply chain). The trip here might be a challenge. Maybe they want to make use of local labor for an expansion base. A huge surge in our tech could prepare the planet for their occupation or prepare us as a captive consumer market? Could they be a private or corporate venture rather than a government operation? A target for rushed competitive expansion? OK, sorry about the "maybe" stacking.
An interesting exercise would be to look at all or part of the last 100 years with either the threat of or direct influence of (cooperation or manipulation) an alien presence in mind. We, or just our planetary infrastructure, may need to be uplifted to be of use. It also makes the relatively recent worldwide, instant mass media's ability to distract and focus public attention an interesting feature.
Quote from: solops on May 17, 2021, 08:27:11 AM
JH, That would be the good explanation. But, MAYBE we are tasty or would make good cannon fodder for their Vietnam or tribute to a third party. Maybe it has taken them this long to establish a solid base here to prep for the big reveal (the end of a long supply chain). The trip here might be a challenge. Maybe they want to make use of local labor for an expansion base. A huge surge in our tech could prepare the planet for their occupation or prepare us as a captive consumer market? Could they be a private or corporate venture rather than a government operation? A target for rushed competitive expansion? OK, sorry about the "maybe" stacking.
I think that assuming these objects are created and controlled by extraterrestrials, they are so far advanced beyond us that all of these "practical" considerations you suggest are just totally beneath their plane of existence. If you have technology that can defy the laws of physics and relativity, and pretty much move anywhere instantaneously, imagine what else they are capable of and again question why they would need to "ask" us for anything.
What if it turned out that most of these sightings we of actual terrestrial origin - that a power here on Earth did indeed design and build them and were that far ahead of everyone else. Sort of like at the dawn of flight a small handful of countries had powered, heavier than air craft, while the vast majority did not. That would be an interesting scenario.
Quote from: Gusington on May 17, 2021, 10:17:08 AM
What if it turned out that most of these sightings we of actual terrestrial origin - that a power here on Earth did indeed design and build them and were that far ahead of everyone else. Sort of like at the dawn of flight a small handful of countries had powered, heavier than air craft, while the vast majority did not. That would be an interesting scenario.
Certainly a possibility, and one that cannot be ruled out. However, these are multi-medium craft and that is unlike anything our science is capable of as far as we know.
JH, I hope you are correct and that the advanced aliens are here doing a National Geographic show. That would be the absolute best case. It is a real possibility. That said, I would hate to rely on alien benevolence. I absolutely do not believe that advanced tech and benevolence are necessarily tied together.
Gus, yeah, interesting, but I fear few human regimes would be able to forego the opportunity to throw their weight around with such an advantage. Your proposal hints at an ""Atlantis under the sea" kind of thing as well.
Back in the fear school of thought, the likelihood of many of the scenarios depend on whether travel to/from star systems is fast or slow, expensive or not. And how valuable our real estate is - that is a real danger.
The "people are tasty" option in a ""travel is fast" scenario is worrisome. Maybe the Wuhan virus is an Earth attempt to infect people with something that makes them less tasty. Or maybe the vaccine is the stinkifier. Or maybe it is an alien effort to make us even more tastier?
Back when I was in college National Lampoon did a piece supposing that Earth was a farm colony for competing aliens. To keep them happy, we farmed cancer cells for them which were used as high quality fuel for their starships.
Quote from: solops on May 17, 2021, 10:33:47 AM
JH, I hope you are correct and that the advanced aliens are here doing a National Geographic show. That would be the absolute best case. It is a real possibility. That said, I would hate to rely on alien benevolence. I absolutely do not believe that advanced tech and benevolence are necessarily tied together.
Gus, yeah, interesting, but I fear few human regimes would be able to forego the opportunity to throw their weight around with such an advantage. Your proposal hints at an ""Atlantis under the sea" kind of thing as well.
Back in the fear school of thought, the likelihood of many of the scenarios depend on whether travel to/from star systems is fast or slow, expensive or not. And how valuable our real estate is - that is a real danger.
The "people are tasty" option in a ""travel is fast" scenario is worrisome. Maybe the Wuhan virus is an Earth attempt to infect people with something that makes them less tasty. Or maybe the vaccine is the stinkifier. Or maybe it is an alien effort to make us even more tastier?
Who said they are benevolent? Not me. I simply said that if they are here and if they wanted something, they would most likely just take it, rather than engaging in any diplomacy or cooperation for it.
If we're speculating here, how about the, 'Scare-Crow' scenario where government(s) develop an advanced propulsion craft, helped by tricky video editing or other means, to convince us aliens are here and all peoples must unite together to....do whatever. I'm consistently struck by the poor, grainy video of these encounters. Shouldn't there be much clearer, better quality video available to us by now? I mean these are taken by our very most advanced air and sea craft. I realize these videos are the ones that have been de-classified after all. Maybe these are the videos they want us to see to sell the lie.
Quote from: Sir Slash on May 17, 2021, 11:50:23 AM
If we're speculating here, how about the, 'Scare-Crow' scenario where government(s) develop an advanced propulsion craft, helped by tricky video editing or other means, to convince us aliens are here and all peoples must unite together to....do whatever. I'm consistently struck by the poor, grainy video of these encounters. Shouldn't there be much clearer, better quality video available to us by now? I mean these are taken by our very most advanced air and sea craft. I realize these videos are the ones that have been de-classified after all. Maybe these are the videos they want us to see to sell the lie.
Wait...Are you suggesting that our Government is LYING to us?!???!?
Umm, never mind... Most of the scenarios here suggest they are. I guess they all require that our governments are either lying to us or are complete idiots. Now that is a real brain teaser.
JH, sorry. No, you never said they were benevolent. Besides, they could be benevolent AND hungry, but kind to their food. Kind of like an all-organic chicken farmer. For the food scenario to work out we would have to be pretty tasty to justify the cost and expense, like truffles or Kobe beef!
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on May 17, 2021, 08:10:55 AM
The technology that propels these crafts is so far advanced beyond anything we are capable of even understanding
How can we be sure of this without any physical evidence? The declassified footage is certainly strange, but it's just grainy footage of a distant object flying around. I'm not sure I see the leap to conclusion that this technology doesn't exist on our planet when we don't actually know what it is and nobody ever actually saw it up close.
Quote from: al_infierno on May 17, 2021, 12:42:22 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on May 17, 2021, 08:10:55 AM
The technology that propels these crafts is so far advanced beyond anything we are capable of even understanding
How can we be sure of this without any physical evidence? The declassified footage is certainly strange, but it's just grainy footage of a distant object flying around. I'm not sure I see the leap to conclusion that this technology doesn't exist on our planet when we don't actually know what it is and nobody ever actually saw it up close.
You haven't watched any of the videos I presume. The evidence is of these objects traveling more than 80,000 feet in less then 1 second, or avigating without any sign of propulsion while shifting between air and water. That is pretty compelling evidence of systems based upon gravitational technology that violates our known laws of physics.
Multi-medium craft...not sure whether to be terrified or...more terrified.
I have always figured that these type of craft would be easy to make once you had good superconductors and a massively overpowered but tiny power supply (neither of which we have...as far as we know). They would allow craft to manipulate the planet's magnetic field for the kind of performance seen. I cannot figure how any organic being could travel inside said object and survive. Maybe these are terrestrially sourced, unmanned craft.
P.S. they need some kick-ass heat shielding, too. There used to be a lot of interesting papers on superconductors in Scientific American. Its been years since I subscribed.
Watching that video made me more terrified. 80,000 feet per second straight into the ocean and then disappeared??? WTF
Their silence is also very unnerving. My gut tells me they see us like polliwogs in a pool of water. Whoever 'they' are.
With all of these new recorded sightings I wonder if we are on the cusp of some sort of Independence Day-like reveal...
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on May 17, 2021, 12:48:13 PM
Quote from: al_infierno on May 17, 2021, 12:42:22 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on May 17, 2021, 08:10:55 AM
The technology that propels these crafts is so far advanced beyond anything we are capable of even understanding
How can we be sure of this without any physical evidence? The declassified footage is certainly strange, but it's just grainy footage of a distant object flying around. I'm not sure I see the leap to conclusion that this technology doesn't exist on our planet when we don't actually know what it is and nobody ever actually saw it up close.
You haven't watched any of the videos I presume. The evidence is of these objects traveling more than 80,000 feet in less then 1 second, or avigating without any sign of propulsion while shifting between air and water. That is pretty compelling evidence of systems based upon gravitational technology that violates our known laws of physics.
Actually I did, and as I said that's very strange but it could be something highly experimental and, as Solops pointed out, not necessarily manned by a living being. Without physical remains proving this is alien technology, I don't see compelling evidence that it's not from our planet. Nobody saw the thing exit our atmosphere into space, did they?
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on May 17, 2021, 10:56:08 AM
Who said they are benevolent? Not me. I simply said that if they are here and if they wanted something, they would most likely just take it, rather than engaging in any diplomacy or cooperation for it.
You are giving them human characteristics and expect them to behave as most humans and animals on this planet would. Maybe they don't need to eat and only need energy to survive. In that case they would easier harvest energy from a star than from our planet.
I don't think an alien race would reach the technology needed to come over here by behaving like we do right now.
If I were a gambler I would bet on us destroying the planet by nuclear wars before we achieve the means of traveling to another star system.
Unless there exists a way to manipulate space & time it takes you more than 4 years to travel at near speed of light to the nearest star. It would take more than 25.000 years to travel to the nearest galaxy. The Andromeda galaxy is around 2.500.000 light years away ...
Plus if you travel at the speed of light time slows down for the traveler while time continues to evolve for the people left behind. So if you could manage to fly at the speed of light to the nearest star and get back you would be 8 years older and everybody you left behind would be dead. (travelling at a speed (relative to Earth) 99.99999999% the speed of light, or 299,999.997 km/sec, a second for the traveler (relative to Earth) turns in to 19.6 hours for a person left on earth).
To be clear, I'm not against the idea of extraterrestrial life in principle. I'm just of the belief that it's astronomically unlikely that our civilization will ever meet another civilization, for reasons Pete explained quite succinctly. That said, there was some really interesting discussion about the possibility of Oumumua being an interstellar alien device, and the possibility that we effectively announced our presence to the universe with high-power mine detectors that gave off really strong radio signals after WWII. If there is a civilization out there with interest in ours, I do think it stands to reason that they are likely predatory and we would want to be ready to defend ourselves. I just don't think this is a likely reality.
(https://i.imgflip.com/59w39m.jpg)
Quote from: Pete Dero on May 17, 2021, 01:09:18 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on May 17, 2021, 10:56:08 AM
Who said they are benevolent? Not me. I simply said that if they are here and if they wanted something, they would most likely just take it, rather than engaging in any diplomacy or cooperation for it.
You are giving them human characteristics and expect them to behave as most humans and animals on this planet would. Maybe they don't need to eat and only need energy to survive. In that case they would easier harvest energy from a star than from our planet.
I don't think an alien race would reach the technology needed to come over here by behaving like we do right now.
If I were a gambler I would bet on us destroying the planet by nuclear wars before we achieve the means of traveling to another star system.
Unless there exists a way to manipulate space & time it takes you more than 4 years to travel at near speed of light to the nearest star. It would take more than 25.000 years to travel to the nearest galaxy. The Andromeda galaxy is around 2.500.000 light years away ...
Plus if you travel at the speed of light time slows down for the traveler while time continues to evolve for the people left behind. So if you could manage to fly at the speed of light to the nearest star and get back you would be 8 years older and everybody you left behind would be dead. (travelling at a speed (relative to Earth) 99.99999999% the speed of light, or 299,999.997 km/sec, a second for the traveler (relative to Earth) turns in to 19.6 hours for a person left on earth).
I'm not giving them human characteristics. In fact, I'm stating quite the opposite. I've already stated that if they have the technology that is so far beyond our own, they most probably think on an entirely different plane. Solops is giving them human characteristics, which I have questioned.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on May 17, 2021, 01:22:16 PM
I've already stated that if they have the technology that is so far beyond our own, they most probably think on an entirely different plane.
I'm hoping that if you are so far beyond where we are now, you are also beyond simply taking whatever you want just because you can.
Hey! I just speculated that they might be hungry or want our turf for something (and some other stuff). That describes sharks and leopards too! Admittedly, they may be past the more basic Earthly organic drives, but advanced tech does not mandate that or benevolence. Their tech may be so advanced that they may not need us or our stuff. Probably not. They may just want our planet as a place to put a signal booster for Netflix. It may just be about location, location, location!
Quote from: Pete Dero on May 17, 2021, 01:29:27 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on May 17, 2021, 01:22:16 PM
I've already stated that if they have the technology that is so far beyond our own, they most probably think on an entirely different plane.
I'm hoping that if you are so far beyond where we are now, you are also beyond simply taking whatever you want just because you can.
What does this have to do with me?
Maybe we block their portal path to an alternative fantasy dimension full of hot alien babes and they are just checking out earth before they remove it. That's pretty higher plane stuff.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on May 17, 2021, 01:33:04 PM
Quote from: Pete Dero on May 17, 2021, 01:29:27 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on May 17, 2021, 01:22:16 PM
I've already stated that if they have the technology that is so far beyond our own, they most probably think on an entirely different plane.
I'm hoping that if you are so far beyond where we are now, you are also beyond simply taking whatever you want just because you can.
What does this have to do with me?
JH, far beyond us...goes together, right? But you would never take our stuff.
I've always had a problem understanding the theory of relativity. How could one second of travel time in a spaceship translate into 20 hours of elapsed time for someone on earth?
At 12pm a friend and I are standing in my backyard of my home. My friend sits down on a chair and waits. I get into my spaceship, turn on the engine and in 1 second I am 300000 km away because my ship flies at 300000 km/s. Why did my friend who was sitting still say I was gone for 20 hours?
Did it take me 20 hours to build up enough speed to travel for 1 second?
Thinking about the control of the magnetic field....we engineering students used to talk a lot about that back in the 70s. It seemed so, so close and easily done, but we just did not quite have the necessary stuff, but the tech path was clear. I used to understand those thing back when I was smart. Now I'm old, retired and dumb. Maybe the aliens are old and tired, too.
But control of magnetism is very real and do-able. Gravity? Well, that is the next step...and a big one.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on May 17, 2021, 01:33:04 PM
Quote from: Pete Dero on May 17, 2021, 01:29:27 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on May 17, 2021, 01:22:16 PM
I've already stated that if they have the technology that is so far beyond our own, they most probably think on an entirely different plane.
I'm hoping that if you are so far beyond where we are now, you are also beyond simply taking whatever you want just because you can.
What does this have to do with me?
To be clear : by 'you' I meant another race.
Quote from: W8taminute on May 17, 2021, 01:38:27 PM
I've always had a problem understanding the theory of relativity. How could one second of travel time in a spaceship translate into 20 hours of elapsed time for someone on earth?
At 12pm a friend and I are standing in my backyard of my home. My friend sits down on a chair and waits. I get into my spaceship, turn on the engine and in 1 second I am 300000 km away because my ship flies at 300000 km/s. Why did my friend who was sitting still say I was gone for 20 hours?
Did it take me 20 hours to build up enough speed to travel for 1 second?
The Wikipedia article on time dilation gives a high-level explanation of the theory:
QuoteTheoretically, time dilation would make it possible for passengers in a fast-moving vehicle to advance further into the future in a short period of their own time. For sufficiently high speeds, the effect is dramatic. For example, one year of travel might correspond to ten years on Earth. Indeed, a constant 1 g acceleration would permit humans to travel through the entire known Universe in one human lifetime.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation#Time_dilation_caused_by_a_relative_velocity
Basically, moving really fast (i.e. light speed) causes time to slow down for you relative to everyone who's moving at normal human speeds. It's all theoretical of course, so none of this has been proven through experiments or people actually doing this.
Quote from: Pete Dero on May 17, 2021, 01:43:11 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on May 17, 2021, 01:33:04 PM
Quote from: Pete Dero on May 17, 2021, 01:29:27 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on May 17, 2021, 01:22:16 PM
I've already stated that if they have the technology that is so far beyond our own, they most probably think on an entirely different plane.
I'm hoping that if you are so far beyond where we are now, you are also beyond simply taking whatever you want just because you can.
What does this have to do with me?
To be clear : by 'you' I meant another race.
lol. OK. Some would argue that I am not of this species. :-\
Quote from: W8taminute on May 17, 2021, 01:38:27 PM
I've always had a problem understanding the theory of relativity. How could one second of travel time in a spaceship translate into 20 hours of elapsed time for someone on earth?
At 12pm a friend and I are standing in my backyard of my home. My friend sits down on a chair and waits. I get into my spaceship, turn on the engine and in 1 second I am 300000 km away because my ship flies at 300000 km/s. Why did my friend who was sitting still say I was gone for 20 hours?
Did it take me 20 hours to build up enough speed to travel for 1 second?
And yet is so simple >:D .
I think only a few people on this planet really get it ...
Einstein predicted it and @al infierno experiments have confirmed it.
http://www.alternativephysics.org/book/TimeDilationExperiments.htm
https://www.space.com/42641-einstein-gravitational-time-dilation-galileo-probes.html
Time is relative to the observer. The traveler is gone for 1 second but the person who stays behind has to wait 20 hours for his return.
This effect even occurs at much lower speeds (as mentioned in the article : after 6 months on the International Space Station (ISS), orbiting Earth at a speed of about 7,700 m/s, an astronaut would have aged about 0.005 seconds less than those on Earth.
Also : you can never reach the speed of light.
The mass of any object increases as the speed of the object increases. At 90% of the speed of light mass will approximately double, but at 99% of the speed of light the apparent mass will appear to have increased by about 7 fold. As we get closer to the speed of light the mass increases very dramatically until at the speed of light it would be infinite. To move something of infinite mass would require infinite energy and this is clearly not possible, hence nothing can travel faster than light.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on May 17, 2021, 01:48:33 PM
lol. OK. Some would argue that I am not of this species. :-\
I am also here just to observe humans ;).
Oh wow.... Today I learned!
And yeah, very few people on this planet really "get it" so don't feel bad if it doesn't really make sense. :2funny:
Einstein wrote a dumbed down book about relativity. I pull it out and read it every once in a while. I have to focus really, really hard on some of the pages, but if I do I always get an epiphany and realize "Of course! It's so simple!" Then I put the book away and the next day it goes all fuzzy again and I cannot quite make the explanation clear any more. These days, I am not sure I could follow the math any more. My partial differential equations are not what they used to be and tensor calculus was always a challenge. Thank goodness he left most of that stuff out of the explanation.
The book used to be on Amazon. It may still be and it is worth reading for anyone!
Quote from: al_infierno on May 17, 2021, 02:04:23 PM
Oh wow.... Today I learned!
And yeah, very few people on this planet really "get it" so don't feel bad if it doesn't really make sense. :2funny:
This is the reason science fiction needs to use things like warp engines and worm holes to move around in the universe.
Otherwise you would need a very large cast : every time you come back from a mission all those who stayed behind are death and need to be replaced by other characters.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/einsteins-time-dilation-prediction-verified/
Physicists have verified a key prediction of Albert Einstein's special theory of relativity with unprecedented accuracy. Experiments at a particle accelerator in Germany confirm that time moves slower for a moving clock than for a stationary one.
The work is the most stringent test yet of this 'time-dilation' effect, which Einstein predicted. One of the consequences of this effect is that a person travelling in a high-speed rocket would age more slowly than people back on Earth.
Few scientists doubt that Einstein was right. But the mathematics describing the time-dilation effect are "fundamental to all physical theories", says Thomas Udem, a physicist at the Max Planck Institute for Quantum Optics in Garching, Germany, who was not involved in the research. "It is of utmost importance to verify it with the best possible accuracy."
If I recall, the book the "Forever War" really addressed the consequences of long distance space travel well. Its been many decades since I read it, but I recall reading about all the vast and monumental changes on Earth every time the soldiers returned to visit from their intergalactic conflicts.
I knew Pete was not of this Earth from the beginning.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on May 17, 2021, 02:27:16 PM
If I recall, the book the "Forever War" really addressed the consequences of long distance space travel well. Its been many decades since I read it, but I recall reading about all the vast and monumental changes on Earth every time the soldiers returned to visit from their intergalactic conflicts.
Yeah, awesome book and a great metaphor for American soldiers returning from Vietnam to a completely changed America. I recall in the later stages of the book they were basically planning attacks with entire regiments of soldiers who hadn't even been born yet.
Hopefully our alien friends, should they visit us, will treat us better than we treated our fellow earthlings during our period of global exploration and discovery.
Another thing has occurred to me, not always a good thing. If these beings are very advanced technologically as they would have to be in order to build craft of this sort, then perhaps their morals are equally advanced. They may have their own version of Star Trek's Prime Directive and deliberately be avoiding contact with us out of fear of influencing our society overly much. And think how much it would. :o
BTW, there's a new season of History Channel's Mysteries of Skinwalker Ranch on Tuesdays. O0
Maybe they are looking for AOC? They first tried to find Hidinbiden but he's in that bunker and that's why that one ufo went under the water. :)
Let's try to leave the R&P stuff out of this thread. Thanks!
:bd:
Quote from: al_infierno on May 17, 2021, 01:47:19 PM
It's all theoretical of course, so none of this has been proven through experiments or people actually doing this.
well, proven every time you successfully use a GPS for navigation ;)
there are two effects, the atomic clock in the GPS satellite ticks slower because its moving fast in the orbit, but also faster because the clock is farer out of the gravity field of the planet then the clock on the surface
in summation this has to be taken into account or would lead to an offset in the position calculation of up to 11km per day , and adding up each day
I wonder if we spotted them here that we should not have already spotted them in space if they were from space. Otherwise possibly just sensor illusions. We might just have discovered some sort of natural heat bloom or light source. Made me think of Tesla's magnetic drives though.
Maybe they know we are gearing up to go to MARS!
Hollow earth?
Naaaaaah.
I'm of the opinion that this planet is in a somewhat ghetto part of the galaxy.
if you land here your gonna get your shit stolen!