This country needs to get a friggin grip
http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/16/us/texas-student-ahmed-muslim-clock-bomb/ (http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/16/us/texas-student-ahmed-muslim-clock-bomb/)
http://www.wired.com/2015/09/heres-bomb-clock-got-ahmed-mohamed-arrested/ (http://www.wired.com/2015/09/heres-bomb-clock-got-ahmed-mohamed-arrested/)
I've seen contraption with similar construction. They did go boom or timed the boom. Frankly in hindsight it may seem pathetic, but I think they made the right call. You never know these days. All it took was a couple of rice cookers in Boston lest we all forgot too soon.
This looks like an overreaction
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CPAFMKrUkAABI2a.jpg)
Clearly, no one seriously thought it was a bomb. The teacher confiscated it and held on to it for a few hours before calling the police to question and arrest the kid. No bomb squad, no evacuation of the building.
If they did actually think it was a bomb, then they were grossly negligent.
Hopefully his friends, classmates and teachers will give him encouragement and warm welcome after he comes back to school and this doesn't deter the kid's interest in electronics.
It's kind of amazing. Years ago we'd bring stuff like this to school (or some other 'contraption'). Nobody would care. This kid gets stopped, and now has support tweets from Google, Aaron Levie, and the President :coolsmiley:
Yeah when I was a kid, my buddies and I were always hacking together stuff like that. Usually it was for some kind of role playing game, but we were always bringing it to school because one of the science teachers ran the school gaming club. We'd all be in jail today.
Remember the old RPG called Assassin? A version of it was shown in the movie Gotcha!. I didn't get to college until 1987 but I remember hearing about how dudes played this in the early 80s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassin_(game)
Apparently it's still a thing. Surprisingly so. I wouldn't think the hand-wringers leading today's campuses would tolerate any of it.
We played a variation of it when I was in high school.
Quote from: mirth on September 16, 2015, 07:43:51 PM
We played a variation of it when I was in high school.
Ditto.
Quote from: mirth on September 16, 2015, 07:27:38 PMWe'd all be in jail today.
the 5th grade puppet show that 2 of us put together was plotting to kill our teacher for giving us hard words on a spelling test.
the parents all had awkward looks on their faces but she fell off the chair laughing so hard
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on September 16, 2015, 07:34:41 PM
Remember the old RPG called Assassin? A version of it was shown in the movie Gotcha!. I didn't get to college until 1987 but I remember hearing about how dudes played this in the early 80s.
We had a 6-month game of it my sophomore year at NC State. The tough part there is that there's a set of RR tracks through the middle of campus, and only 3 tunnels and a bridge cross them. You've got natural choke points to hunt your prey, or force them to be late for class going way out of their way to avoid the most direct-route choke point.
From about 6th grade forward I carried a Swiss Army knife to school every day. The scissors came in handy when girls had a loose thread on their shirt which needed trimming.
Oh, and it had a corkscrew. ::)
Guys used to drive their pickups to school and leave their deer rifles in the truck during deer season, too. The practice ended not because of policy or misuse but because some burglars got the bright idea to break into trucks that had a gun rack in the back displaying the rifle. ::)
Quote from: LongBlade on September 16, 2015, 08:32:50 PM
Guys used to drive their pickups to school and leave their deer rifles in the truck during deer season, too.
We had plenty of that too.
Doesn't seem smart to steal a gun from someone that carries an arsenal in their personal vehicle. Then again I guess we're not talking about MENSA members here.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on September 16, 2015, 08:37:02 PM
Doesn't seem smart to steal a gun from someone that carries an arsenal in their personal vehicle. Then again I guess we're not talking about MENSA members here.
Not at my high school.
Back in our day there weren't internet sites that described the construction of lethal weaponry in minutes simply involving an egg timer, a pressure cooker, and nails either and not really the point. The point is that a. the school and teachers should have known information about the kid, but most likely didn't. Because you cannot "profile", aka knowing someone's interests, background, and tendencies both positive and negative or be outed as racist, insensitive, intrusive, or some other such nonsense, b. none of us actually knows shit about what happened. Over the years I've come to be skeptical of media reports particularly when they quickly escalate into political talking points, c. if the kid was questioned without a lawyer present there are serious issues with that fact, d. the kid needs to be encouraged to pursuit his interests further, which brings me back to point a.
School's do 'profile' kids all the time. They keep files, notes, etc. I've worked in multiple public schools over several years, I know well what kind of records they keep on students. If this kid was perceived as a trouble maker or any kind of threat, school officials would know.
I'll go back to my earlier point, if anyone, school officials or law enforcement, though that kid had really made a bomb then they seriously screwed up by keeping the 'bomb' in the school for hours without evacuating the students.
It seems far more likely that this was another example of the overreaction all too common in our society today where every pointed finger is a threat, every science project is a bomb.
Quote from: mirth on September 16, 2015, 06:55:41 PM
Clearly, no one seriously thought it was a bomb. The teacher confiscated it and held on to it for a few hours before calling the police to question and arrest the kid. No bomb squad, no evacuation of the building.
If they did actually think it was a bomb, then they were grossly negligent.
This.
At the same time, this hysteria has been going on at American schools since Columbine. Its a shame that at these schools nobody is there, or has the ability, to say "this has gone far enough". Some adult needs to grow some balls and possibly bite the bullet and say "Alright, we messed up and this ends now." No call to the police, no arrest, no suspension. Yet, once the ball starts rolling, the bureaucratic inertia is unstoppable.
I also want to say, lets not make this the defining moment of his life. Liberalism in this country wants to equate one's victimhood with identity. Its good he's going to get some awesome opportunities from this, but he might look back 20 years from now and see how many doors were opened for him simply because he was a victim of some idiotic teachers, staff, and zero tolerance school policies.
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/11011263_10153607315888399_3021387483475642953_n.png?oh=19c590eea398d5373b1c5881575bda0b&oe=5664E791)
Quote from: bayonetbrant on September 16, 2015, 09:09:32 PM
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/11011263_10153607315888399_3021387483475642953_n.png?oh=19c590eea398d5373b1c5881575bda0b&oe=5664E791)
<chuckle>
If I read the stories correctly, the school and cops didn't think the kid had built a real bomb, but had built a hoax bomb and arrested him for that, as faux bomb threats are illegal. I'm not defending the school officials at all, just trying to clarify something. They are still nincompoops. Also, once the accusation was made I don't doubt that the local LEOs were pretty much legally obligated to play out the arrest scenario. Still, they could have skipped the 'cuffs.
WaPo has a timeline of the events: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/09/16/why-a-ninth-graders-arrest-over-a-home-built-clock-struck-a-chord-across-america/
Looks like the kid made it the day before school to impress his science teacher. The teacher told him not to show other teachers (presumably a case of deja vu).
Later in English class the clock beeped. Teacher demand explanation. Is given clock. Panics.
Keystone Kops ensue.
Quote from: Staggerwing on September 16, 2015, 09:14:36 PM
If I read the stories correctly, the school and cops didn't think the kid had built a real bomb, but had built a hoax bomb and arrested him for that, as faux bomb threats are illegal. I'm not defending the school officials at all, just trying to clarify something. They are still nincompoops. Also, once the accusation was made I don't doubt that the local LEOs were pretty much legally obligated to play out the arrest scenario. Still, they could have skipped the 'cuffs.
That is correct. He was arrested under suspicion of creating a hoax bomb.
Quote from: mirth on September 16, 2015, 09:04:35 PM
It seems far more likely that this was another example of the overreaction all too common in our society today where every pointed finger is a threat, every science project is a bomb.
I'm not going to disagree with this statement, because in general I agree. There is way to much overreaction, but lets be honest a sandwich or finger gun is not a timing mechanism. Was it an overreaction? Yes, but it's an easy judgement to make in hindsight. I honestly hope that if this kid is electrical or mechanical engineering inclined that he receives encouragement to pursue those avenues of knowledge and abilities. But the other reality is that schools are under tremendous pressures right now to prevent threats real or imaginary and frankly for some good reason, but that is why you end up with the extremes of banning "gun" gestures or expelling kids for water guns or key chain guns. In this case, a "bomb". In many ways I don't envy school administrators who have to navigate the wickets of todays politics and reality. It's an unenviable position, because of the what if. What if it weren't a clock. Then the masses who be questioning why they did nothing when the facts were staring them in the face. Anyway. I hope it works out and he continues on with his interests.
Statement given by the Irving Police Chief
Suspicious appearance.
It's a clock - no other details forthcoming.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alarmclocksonline.com%2Fassets%2Fimages%2Fwestclox%2F15396.jpg&hash=b9ec0ce31d3cd94de570f5e4723934e0285cc91d)
Just to be clear, I don't think this was any kind of "islamophobic" incident, as so many people seem eager to make out to be. I think it was an overreaction to a kid with an electronic device that freaked a few people out. I sympathize with the kid because if I were in high school today I could easily find myself in a similar situation.
And this whole thing about him not being "forthcoming", give me a friggin break. Have these people ever met a teenage boy?
Quote from: LongBlade on September 16, 2015, 09:27:31 PM
Suspicious appearance.
It's a clock - no other details forthcoming.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alarmclocksonline.com%2Fassets%2Fimages%2Fwestclox%2F15396.jpg&hash=b9ec0ce31d3cd94de570f5e4723934e0285cc91d)
Clear the forums!
Yeah, but let's face it - if I showed up with that sort of clock in my bag, no one gives a shit. But it's a brown-skinned kid with a 'funny-sounding' name, so he gets hauled into the principal's office.
The worst part of it is that they were laying into him with no parents present. That's just flat-fucking wrong.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on September 16, 2015, 09:42:39 PM
Yeah, but let's face it - if I showed up with that sort of clock in my bag, no one gives a shit. But it's a brown-skinned kid with a 'funny-sounding' name, so he gets hauled into the principal's office.
The worst part of it is that they were laying into him with no parents present. That's just flat-fucking wrong.
It's nuts. They questioned him, arrested him and dragged him off to juvy and then called the parents? WTF?! Why the hell didn't the school call the parents in the first place? It does raise questions about if it would have been handled that way for a white kid named Joe Smith.
Well i know, its all just following SOP regulations, but looking at that picture, a cop who need to put a skinny nerdy kid into iron handcuffs for his personal security and the 'control of the suspect', is not qualified to do that job.
There is always leeway in decision making. if that would have been a 200lbs ox of an teenager caught in the middle of the night burgling in gang-country thats a different story. Its not about the age, its about the threat level.
Quote from: Bison on September 16, 2015, 06:20:53 PM
I've seen contraption with similar construction. They did go boom or timed the boom. Frankly in hindsight it may seem pathetic, but I think they made the right call. You never know these days. All it took was a couple of rice cookers in Boston lest we all forgot too soon.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Futmbs8iu6w2vs3oz2ez0dj16.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F09%2Fclock.jpg&hash=93af559fc239ab9e142dd4f4cc6b07b9f490a84e)
A kid in a local school got in trouble for bringing a butter knife from home, with his lunch awhile back.
The stories about kids also getting extensive scrutiny for drawing weapons, robots firing missiles, and other flights of fantasy on their notebooks in school is real.
This is the norm today. I'd say the Briefcase Bomb Hoax was one of the more reasonable examples in the lot.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on September 16, 2015, 09:09:32 PM
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/11011263_10153607315888399_3021387483475642953_n.png?oh=19c590eea398d5373b1c5881575bda0b&oe=5664E791)
And all done in a very 'English' Steampunk style! ;)
It's kind of unsurprising that the local news, which has been running this story, has strangely seemed to forget to show what this contraption looks like.
^exactly. Its avery convient omission. It's almost like there is an agenda being pushed.
Quote from: Bison on September 17, 2015, 06:22:25 PM
^exactly. Its avery convient omission. It's almost like there is an agenda being pushed.
I haven't found it difficult to find photos of it. A pic has been included in just about every article I've read. Including one of the two links I originally posted last night.
http://www.wired.com/2015/09/heres-bomb-clock-got-ahmed-mohamed-arrested/
Actually, it's pictured in both links I posted last night. The CNN article shows it in the video
http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/16/us/texas-student-ahmed-muslim-clock-bomb/
I was pointing out that the television news (specifically, my shitty local news) is being remiss in keeping it out of coverage. Sure, you can find it everywhere online, but the television portion of media is being its usual lets-not-share-all-the-facts selves.
It's sad that I can sit here and think, if this were an Anglo kid, how they'd be clamoring to send him to San Quentin. Meanwhile, this kid gets an invite to the White House.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on September 17, 2015, 06:52:28 PM
I was pointing out that the television news (specifically, my shitty local news) is being remiss in keeping it out of coverage. Sure, you can find it everywhere online, but the television portion of media is being its usual lets-not-share-all-the-facts selves.
It's sad that I can sit here and think, if this were an Anglo kid, how they'd be clamoring to send him to San Quentin. Meanwhile, this kid gets an invite to the White House.
Conversely if it were an Anglo kid, it's entirely possible he wouldn't have been questioned by the police or arrested, cuffed and dragged to juvy.
I don't care about the kid's religion or ethnicity, it was a heavy-handed overreaction regardless.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on September 17, 2015, 06:52:28 PM
I was pointing out that the television news (specifically, my shitty local news) is being remiss in keeping it out of coverage. Sure, you can find it everywhere online, but the television portion of media is being its usual lets-not-share-all-the-facts selves.
I get that. I was responding to the idea that there is some kind of media agenda trying to hide what the clock looks like.
I dunno. I could be wrong. I hate that the media makes me think like that (about 'what if' this were a white kid instead). Very well could go the way you say, mirth, and just let the kid off with the slap of a wrist.
So how often do you think this kind of thing happens every day, everywhere, and it's just harmless and nobody gets hurt and there's no cruel intentions nor perception of the same? I'm thinking it happens quite often. This just happened to get on the media's radar. Any news story I've seen, though, has basically told this story from the kids' perspective and not at all from the side of common sense.
In this day and age, you'd think a 14-year-old would have more common sense than to bring something like this to school, or at least bring it to the faculty's attention as soon as he brings it on campus. I don't buy that he's that naive. Not with how schools are 'zero tolerant' when it comes to things like butter knives.
I suggest respectfully you google kids toy gun suspension. You will find plent of stories to refute the notion this was merely based on the color of skin. Kids are suspended, arrested, and charged for toy guns, keychain guns and all sorts of similar absurdity.. Including white kids too as if that matters, but apparently race is what matters in this case. Kids are suspended for wearing t-shirts with the American flag. They aren't getting tweets of support or condemnations that the school and police acted stupidly from the highest levels of power in this nation. Why? Because every damned thing these days is political. It either supports the agenda or it doesn't.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on September 17, 2015, 07:17:14 PM
In this day and age, you'd think a 14-year-old would have more common sense than to bring something like this to school, or at least bring it to the faculty's attention as soon as he brings it on campus. I don't buy that he's that naive. Not with how schools are 'zero tolerant' when it comes to things like butter knives.
I completely buy it. 14 year olds just do not think and process information the way adults do. The kid thought he was bringing the cool clock he made to school. There's no evidence to indicate otherwise. If there were, he would have been charged.
Consider what adults still try to carry on to planes these days. "Oh darn, is that my pistol in my bag? Totally forgot about that darn thing. Is that a problem?"
I got in trouble for having too big of a can of shaving cream at an airport screening once. Smuck would be proud.
Good point.
I guess it's easy to judge over here on the sidelines.
Quote from: Bison on September 17, 2015, 07:17:47 PM
I suggest respectfully you google kids toy gun suspension. You will find plent of stories to refute the notion this was merely based on the color of skin. Kids are suspended, arrested, and charged for toy guns, keychain guns and all sorts of similar absurdity.. Including white kids too as if that matters, but apparently race is what matters in this case. Kids are suspended for wearing t-shirts with the American flag. They aren't getting tweets of support or condemnations that the school and police acted stupidly from the highest levels of power in this nation. Why? Because every damned thing these days is political. It either supports the agenda or it doesn't.
Is this directed at me? I've already said that I don't think it was racially, ethnically or religiously motivated. However I can totally see why people might think so. And of course some people are going to use it to push an agenda. That's hardly a surprise.
Quote from: Bison on September 17, 2015, 07:25:52 PM
I got in trouble for having too big of a can of shaving cream at an airport screening once. Smuck would be proud.
Ha!
Quote from: Bison on September 17, 2015, 07:25:52 PM
I got in trouble for having too big of a can of shaving cream at an airport screening once. Smuck would be proud.
Just be glad you didn't have this. You'd be in Gitmo.
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ-xWPVJrNf5sIeEMrpEVItMwtW2rlrVLOQF_lGiB1erDlQT2mXeKmnXdP_CoZC-UAffJEjxIg&usqp=CAE)
I'd be on the history channels ancient aliens program to discuss my recent abduction by the Anunnaki.
Quote from: Bison on September 17, 2015, 07:37:47 PM
I'd be on the history channels ancient aliens program to discuss my recent abduction by the Anunnaki.
Star is a recurring guest.
Yeah but I'm not there for the anal probe part.
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/12004781_10206911426640800_6594967329672141346_n.jpg?oh=185cc3691da862c31f390bdbfcf030ab&oe=566EA4BF)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F0L0541S.png&hash=a282a07c4878bec25fd6a898c4beef2b18c85531)
I just want to mention that I appreciate the civil discourse on this subject. When I posted this last night, I had intended to put it in RP&FW and instead put it in Current Events by mistake. After that, I figured it would end up in RP&FW within a few posts.
There have been some valid points raised on both sides of the issue. It's been nice to have it done in an even tempered manner.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on September 17, 2015, 10:30:00 PM
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/12004781_10206911426640800_6594967329672141346_n.jpg?oh=185cc3691da862c31f390bdbfcf030ab&oe=566EA4BF)
Just read this in George takeis post about him being subjected to similar treatment - I'm naive, it's my fault - but if the above is true am I really expected to believe that a school wanted to humiliate and make an example of a child?
I don't think the school gave two shits one way or the other if they humiliated him. Unfortunately, that attitude is not rare, no matter the school, the kid, or the supposed transgression.
i will add i wholeheartedly believe this kid wasnt arrested because hes a muslim, he was arrested because some idiots thought he made a bomb - regardless of his colour or religion
Quote from: bayonetbrant on September 18, 2015, 05:26:16 AM
I don't think the school gave two shits one way or the other if they humiliated him. Unfortunately, that attitude is not rare, no matter the school, the kid, or the supposed transgression.
+1 I've known plenty of teachers and school administrators who were petty, vindictive pricks.
Quote from: undercovergeek on September 18, 2015, 05:39:41 AM
i will add i wholeheartedly believe this kid wasnt arrested because hes a muslim, he was arrested because some idiots thought he made a bomb - regardless of his colour or religion
Complete agreement with this.
Quote from: mirth on September 17, 2015, 06:56:47 PM
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on September 17, 2015, 06:52:28 PM
I was pointing out that the television news (specifically, my shitty local news) is being remiss in keeping it out of coverage. Sure, you can find it everywhere online, but the television portion of media is being its usual lets-not-share-all-the-facts selves.
It's sad that I can sit here and think, if this were an Anglo kid, how they'd be clamoring to send him to San Quentin. Meanwhile, this kid gets an invite to the White House.
Conversely if it were an Anglo kid, it's entirely possible he wouldn't have been questioned by the police or arrested, cuffed and dragged to juvy.
I don't care about the kid's religion or ethnicity, it was a heavy-handed overreaction regardless.
Bullshit. It is this line of thinking that is leading to the doom of American culture. This kid knew exactly what he made, and exactly what it looked like. Now he is being rewarded for it. Pathetic.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 18, 2015, 05:47:28 AM
Quote from: mirth on September 17, 2015, 06:56:47 PM
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on September 17, 2015, 06:52:28 PM
I was pointing out that the television news (specifically, my shitty local news) is being remiss in keeping it out of coverage. Sure, you can find it everywhere online, but the television portion of media is being its usual lets-not-share-all-the-facts selves.
It's sad that I can sit here and think, if this were an Anglo kid, how they'd be clamoring to send him to San Quentin. Meanwhile, this kid gets an invite to the White House.
Conversely if it were an Anglo kid, it's entirely possible he wouldn't have been questioned by the police or arrested, cuffed and dragged to juvy.
I don't care about the kid's religion or ethnicity, it was a heavy-handed overreaction regardless.
Bullshit. It is this line of thinking that is leading to the doom of American culture.
What line of thinking is that?
Obviously that if he was white, it wouldn't have been an issue. The only difference here is that if he was white, he wouldn't get a red carpet invite to the White House, Obama wouldn't have mentioned it and the kid wouldn't have 20 job offers.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 18, 2015, 05:50:37 AM
Obviously that if he was white, it wouldn't have been an issue.
That isn't my line of thinking. Hasn't been for one second.
I'll say it again for the 3 or 4th time, I don't think this kid was targeted because of his race, ethnicity or religion.
I also think that a white kid or any other kid would have also encountered the same or similar response. It would have still been an overreaction, imo.
Quote from: mirth on September 18, 2015, 05:58:48 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 18, 2015, 05:50:37 AM
Obviously that if he was white, it wouldn't have been an issue.
That isn't my line of thinking. Hasn't been for one second.
I'll say it again for the 3 or 4th time, I don't think this kid was targeted because of his race, ethnicity or religion.
I also think that a white kid or any other kid would have also encountered the same or similar response. It would have still been an overreaction, imo.
Ok, I'm just going off of what you said in the quoted portion above. Furthermore, the problem I'm raising is not in the response to the incident, rather, it's the outpouring of support, favor and congratulation after the fact. If this kid wasn't a Muslim with brown skin, it never would have made national news and the president wouldn't have given a single f__k.
Without trying to pick a fight, I am genuinely curious how many of y'all have ever had your school evacuated because of a bomb threat that was deemed credible.
Only once for me, and that was in college during finals week. Absolutely nobody among us (the students) took it seriously at the time...we were certain it was someone that didn't want to take a final that day. No bomb was found.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 18, 2015, 06:18:59 AM
Quote from: mirth on September 18, 2015, 05:58:48 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 18, 2015, 05:50:37 AM
Obviously that if he was white, it wouldn't have been an issue.
That isn't my line of thinking. Hasn't been for one second.
I'll say it again for the 3 or 4th time, I don't think this kid was targeted because of his race, ethnicity or religion.
I also think that a white kid or any other kid would have also encountered the same or similar response. It would have still been an overreaction, imo.
Ok, I'm just going off of what you said in the quoted portion above. Furthermore, the problem I'm raising is not in the response to the incident, rather, it's the outpouring of support, favor and congratulation after the fact. If this kid wasn't a Muslim with brown skin, it never would have made national news and the president wouldn't have given a single f__k.
My statement was in response to BC's comment that if it were an Anglo kid the response would be even more harsh. I don't think that is anymore accurate than saying this kid only got in trouble because he was Muslim.
As far as the White House invite and the other support from prominent public entities, I agree that is agenda driven. That is hardly a surprise. I don't subscribe to that agenda either.
I think this was a heavy handed school/police response to a skinny nerd kid who honestly thought he was making a cool clock and wanted to show it off to his science teacher. That's the totality of my position on this matter.
Quote from: mirth on September 18, 2015, 06:35:26 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 18, 2015, 06:18:59 AM
Quote from: mirth on September 18, 2015, 05:58:48 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 18, 2015, 05:50:37 AM
Obviously that if he was white, it wouldn't have been an issue.
That isn't my line of thinking. Hasn't been for one second.
I'll say it again for the 3 or 4th time, I don't think this kid was targeted because of his race, ethnicity or religion.
I also think that a white kid or any other kid would have also encountered the same or similar response. It would have still been an overreaction, imo.
Ok, I'm just going off of what you said in the quoted portion above. Furthermore, the problem I'm raising is not in the response to the incident, rather, it's the outpouring of support, favor and congratulation after the fact. If this kid wasn't a Muslim with brown skin, it never would have made national news and the president wouldn't have given a single f__k.
My statement was in response to BC's comment that if it were an Anglo kid the response would be even more harsh. I don't think that is anymore accurate than saying this kid only got in trouble because he was Muslim.
As far as the White House invite and the other support from prominent public entities, I agree that is agenda driven. That is hardly a surprise. I don't subscribe to that agenda either.
I think this was a heavy handed school/police response to a skinny nerd kid who honestly thought he was making a cool clock and wanted to show it off to his science teacher. That's the totality of my position on this matter.
all of this O0
When I said that, it was incredibly cynical of me. Though in my defense, the news has made me question their motivation for anything they report, and nowadays I completely expect some kind of hidden agenda or angle so they can manipulate public opinion into the camp they want it in. It may be just as simple as wanting to sensationalize everything so they can get people to watch their broadcast (and stick around to see their useless commercials), or get online to give them the clicks they crave (and the ad time they so crave, too). Or it might be a big conspiracy. Perhaps something in between. I don't know.
I'd like to think any kid that does this would be treated the same way. The media has taken something of a view on this that, at least to me, feels like they're trying to say 'look at this poor kid being mistreated by the police - feel outrage, peasants!' His race was never mentioned by the local news (they never ever mention that, of course), but his religion was, quite frequently, as if they were indeed trying to make one feel that the police were just harassing some poor Muslim kid.
It pisses me off to no end. I studied journalism in college and it was hammered home that the facts are what you focus on - who, what, when, where, why, and how. You report, you don't tint, you don't omit, you don't lead opinion. Of course, it's nothing like that today; it's like the National Enquirer with 10% content and 90% advertisements.
So I question everything and anything that the news decides to air. Like I said, it makes me feel angry that I would even think "I wonder if an Anglo kid did this, if he'd go to the White House too?"
I would like to give the benefit of the doubt, too. The image Brant posted that detailed if this were perceived to be a bomb, it would have been treated as such and people would have been evacuated, etcetera, was a rather telling statement.
Schools definitely have a 'make an example of them' mentality. They are VERY afraid of litigation, especially in this day and age of cutbacks, low budgets, and little money, so they go way the hell overboard to avoid ANY kind of possible problem or perception of a problem...and so, this happens.
I hope you don't expect me to try to defend the media :P
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmaximumble.thebookofbiff.com%2Fcomics%2F2015-09-18-1182.png&hash=991df4a570c1249bfa1fc24a69b115168b35e38f)
Everyone likes to dismiss violent possibilities as improbably or impossible until they happen and then wonder why no one saw the signs and did anything to stop it.
Quote from: Bison on September 18, 2015, 08:23:14 AM
Everyone likes to dismiss violent possibilities as improbably or impossible until they happen and then wonder why no one saw the signs and did anything to stop it.
Common sense still needs to be applied somewhere along the line, otherwise we end up with nonsense like this
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/education/laura-timoney-fumes-son-patrick-9-busted-bringing-2-inch-long-toy-gun-ps-52-article-1.193508
Quote from: mirth on September 18, 2015, 06:35:26 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 18, 2015, 06:18:59 AM
Quote from: mirth on September 18, 2015, 05:58:48 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 18, 2015, 05:50:37 AM
Obviously that if he was white, it wouldn't have been an issue.
That isn't my line of thinking. Hasn't been for one second.
I'll say it again for the 3 or 4th time, I don't think this kid was targeted because of his race, ethnicity or religion.
I also think that a white kid or any other kid would have also encountered the same or similar response. It would have still been an overreaction, imo.
Ok, I'm just going off of what you said in the quoted portion above. Furthermore, the problem I'm raising is not in the response to the incident, rather, it's the outpouring of support, favor and congratulation after the fact. If this kid wasn't a Muslim with brown skin, it never would have made national news and the president wouldn't have given a single f__k.
My statement was in response to BC's comment that if it were an Anglo kid the response would be even more harsh. I don't think that is anymore accurate than saying this kid only got in trouble because he was Muslim.
As far as the White House invite and the other support from prominent public entities, I agree that is agenda driven. That is hardly a surprise. I don't subscribe to that agenda either.
I think this was a heavy handed school/police response to a skinny nerd kid who honestly thought he was making a cool clock and wanted to show it off to his science teacher. That's the totality of my position on this matter.
I think you are wrong about this kid's innocence. He knew exactly what that clock looked like. He had shown it to a technology teacher who actually told him to put it away and NOT show anyone else. Yet, he still made it audibly "beep" in class and took it out to show another teacher, which is the point at which it was reported. He then was playing very coy with authorities and would not provide any detail about what it was, how it operated or how he made it.
This is a very smart kid who has taken obvious ques from the media and the PC rage that is sweeping the nation.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 18, 2015, 08:31:25 AM
Quote from: mirth on September 18, 2015, 06:35:26 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 18, 2015, 06:18:59 AM
Quote from: mirth on September 18, 2015, 05:58:48 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 18, 2015, 05:50:37 AM
Obviously that if he was white, it wouldn't have been an issue.
That isn't my line of thinking. Hasn't been for one second.
I'll say it again for the 3 or 4th time, I don't think this kid was targeted because of his race, ethnicity or religion.
I also think that a white kid or any other kid would have also encountered the same or similar response. It would have still been an overreaction, imo.
Ok, I'm just going off of what you said in the quoted portion above. Furthermore, the problem I'm raising is not in the response to the incident, rather, it's the outpouring of support, favor and congratulation after the fact. If this kid wasn't a Muslim with brown skin, it never would have made national news and the president wouldn't have given a single f__k.
My statement was in response to BC's comment that if it were an Anglo kid the response would be even more harsh. I don't think that is anymore accurate than saying this kid only got in trouble because he was Muslim.
As far as the White House invite and the other support from prominent public entities, I agree that is agenda driven. That is hardly a surprise. I don't subscribe to that agenda either.
I think this was a heavy handed school/police response to a skinny nerd kid who honestly thought he was making a cool clock and wanted to show it off to his science teacher. That's the totality of my position on this matter.
I think you are wrong about this kid's innocence. He knew exactly what that clock looked like. He had shown it to a technology teacher who actually told him to put it away and NOT show anyone else. Yet, he still made it audibly "beep" in class and took it out to show another teacher, which is the point at which it was reported. He then was playing very coy with authorities and would not provide any detail about what it was, how it operated or how he made it.
This is a very smart kid who has taken obvious ques from the media and the PC rage that is sweeping the nation.
I haven't seen or read anything to indicate he had that kind of agenda or plan for manipulation. I'd be open to seeing information supporting those claims.
No I'm not disagreeing with you Mirth. There does need to be common sense applied. A toy 2" gun is clearly not a threat and will never pose a threat. A timing mechanism concealed inside of a carrying case is another matter. Do I think the kid had a nefarious motivation? I don't believe he did, but I can understand if someone were concerned about it. Clearly there is a sequence of events that occurred afterward that need to be reviewed but not through public shaming or politicization tactics (don't forget the Irving Islamic Center and CAIR have been in a fight with Irving city government ever since Texas passed a law banning non-American courts that clearly was directed at suspected sharia courts being run out of the Islamic Community Center in Irving). The zero tolerance policy also needs to be address but guns are the target and no means is too heavy handed for those who have the anti-second amendment agenda. There needs to be some political leadership to address the latter issue, but its not going to come anytime to soon.
Quote from: mirth on September 18, 2015, 08:35:44 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 18, 2015, 08:31:25 AM
Quote from: mirth on September 18, 2015, 06:35:26 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 18, 2015, 06:18:59 AM
Quote from: mirth on September 18, 2015, 05:58:48 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 18, 2015, 05:50:37 AM
Obviously that if he was white, it wouldn't have been an issue.
That isn't my line of thinking. Hasn't been for one second.
I'll say it again for the 3 or 4th time, I don't think this kid was targeted because of his race, ethnicity or religion.
I also think that a white kid or any other kid would have also encountered the same or similar response. It would have still been an overreaction, imo.
Ok, I'm just going off of what you said in the quoted portion above. Furthermore, the problem I'm raising is not in the response to the incident, rather, it's the outpouring of support, favor and congratulation after the fact. If this kid wasn't a Muslim with brown skin, it never would have made national news and the president wouldn't have given a single f__k.
My statement was in response to BC's comment that if it were an Anglo kid the response would be even more harsh. I don't think that is anymore accurate than saying this kid only got in trouble because he was Muslim.
As far as the White House invite and the other support from prominent public entities, I agree that is agenda driven. That is hardly a surprise. I don't subscribe to that agenda either.
I think this was a heavy handed school/police response to a skinny nerd kid who honestly thought he was making a cool clock and wanted to show it off to his science teacher. That's the totality of my position on this matter.
I think you are wrong about this kid's innocence. He knew exactly what that clock looked like. He had shown it to a technology teacher who actually told him to put it away and NOT show anyone else. Yet, he still made it audibly "beep" in class and took it out to show another teacher, which is the point at which it was reported. He then was playing very coy with authorities and would not provide any detail about what it was, how it operated or how he made it.
This is a very smart kid who has taken obvious ques from the media and the PC rage that is sweeping the nation.
I haven't seen or read anything to indicate he had that kind of agenda or plan for manipulation. I'd be open to seeing information supporting those claims.
Well, since you haven't read it in the news, it must not be the case. My mistake. Apologies... :uglystupid2:
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 18, 2015, 08:41:31 AM
Quote from: mirth on September 18, 2015, 08:35:44 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 18, 2015, 08:31:25 AM
Quote from: mirth on September 18, 2015, 06:35:26 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 18, 2015, 06:18:59 AM
Quote from: mirth on September 18, 2015, 05:58:48 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 18, 2015, 05:50:37 AM
Obviously that if he was white, it wouldn't have been an issue.
That isn't my line of thinking. Hasn't been for one second.
I'll say it again for the 3 or 4th time, I don't think this kid was targeted because of his race, ethnicity or religion.
I also think that a white kid or any other kid would have also encountered the same or similar response. It would have still been an overreaction, imo.
Ok, I'm just going off of what you said in the quoted portion above. Furthermore, the problem I'm raising is not in the response to the incident, rather, it's the outpouring of support, favor and congratulation after the fact. If this kid wasn't a Muslim with brown skin, it never would have made national news and the president wouldn't have given a single f__k.
My statement was in response to BC's comment that if it were an Anglo kid the response would be even more harsh. I don't think that is anymore accurate than saying this kid only got in trouble because he was Muslim.
As far as the White House invite and the other support from prominent public entities, I agree that is agenda driven. That is hardly a surprise. I don't subscribe to that agenda either.
I think this was a heavy handed school/police response to a skinny nerd kid who honestly thought he was making a cool clock and wanted to show it off to his science teacher. That's the totality of my position on this matter.
I think you are wrong about this kid's innocence. He knew exactly what that clock looked like. He had shown it to a technology teacher who actually told him to put it away and NOT show anyone else. Yet, he still made it audibly "beep" in class and took it out to show another teacher, which is the point at which it was reported. He then was playing very coy with authorities and would not provide any detail about what it was, how it operated or how he made it.
This is a very smart kid who has taken obvious ques from the media and the PC rage that is sweeping the nation.
I haven't seen or read anything to indicate he had that kind of agenda or plan for manipulation. I'd be open to seeing information supporting those claims.
Well, since you haven't read it in the news, it must not be the case. My mistake. Apologies... :uglystupid2:
There is nothing in the details of the situation to support such a claim. There hasn't even been speculation on it that I can find.
If you think that is the case, I think you are wildly overestimating the ability of a 14 year old kid to plan and execute that kind of agenda. Particularly without talking/bragging about it.
I'll add that making unsupported claims about the kid's motives is no different than claiming he was the victim of racist, anti-Muslim school officials and cops.
Quote from: Bison on September 18, 2015, 08:41:14 AM
No I'm not disagreeing with you Mirth. There does need to be common sense applied. A toy 2" gun is clearly not a threat and will never pose a threat. A timing mechanism concealed inside of a carrying case is another matter. Do I think the kid had a nefarious motivation? I don't believe he did, but I can understand if someone were concerned about it. Clearly there is a sequence of events that occurred afterward that need to be reviewed but not through public shaming or politicization tactics (don't forget the Irving Islamic Center and CAIR have been in a fight with Irving city government ever since Texas passed a law banning non-American courts that clearly was directed at suspected sharia courts being run out of the Islamic Community Center in Irving). The zero tolerance policy also needs to be address but guns are the target and no means is too heavy handed for those who have the anti-second amendment agenda. There needs to be some political leadership to address the latter issue, but its not going to come anytime to soon.
We largely agree on these issues. No need to continue chasing our tails ;)
The fact that we have to ask so many questions and wonder as to what the deal is here, is itself testimony to shitty, no-facts journalism.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstream1.gifsoup.com%2Fview5%2F3016856%2Fdog-chasing-tail-o.gif&hash=99216fc4b49485e9aee2efa27c8b5b5894b9100d)
But its so much fun!
Quote from: Bison on September 18, 2015, 09:00:51 AM
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstream1.gifsoup.com%2Fview5%2F3016856%2Fdog-chasing-tail-o.gif&hash=99216fc4b49485e9aee2efa27c8b5b5894b9100d)
But its so much fun!
Tail chasing and ball licking. Dog's really do have the life.
Quote from: mirth on September 18, 2015, 08:50:35 AM
I'll add that making unsupported claims about the kid's motives is no different than claiming he was the victim of racist, anti-Muslim school officials and cops.
Now you're starting to piss me off, Mirth. Its unsupported because you haven't read about it. I call it a little bit of f__cking common sense. Look at what this little dip shit made? It TOTALLY looks like a god damn bomb. He is a 14 year old 9th grader. You talk about him like he is a 4 year old. Read his quotes. Read his comments. He is clearly sophisticated and it sounds to me as if he is completely taking advantage of the situation.
Read this and than come back here and tell me it is irrelevant and doesn't count because it comes from Rush Limbaugh. This is the first time in my entire life that I have quoted him, but I agree with him. This entire situation is bullshit. The school and the police were ENTIRELY justified as to how they reacted to this. You just wait. Some innocent little 14 year old jihadist is now going to build a real bomb and bring it to his school and nobody is going to make a peep because they are afraid of being labled as an islamophobe...what then when 40, 50, 60 100 children die when the stupid thing goes off. Then, just wait for the lawsuits which will be based on the school's negligence in notifying authorities. I AM SO SICK OF THIS GOD DAMN SHIT IN THIS COUNTRY. I hardly identify with the people who live in it.
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2015/09/17/the_clock_that_kid_brought_to_school_looked_like_a_freakin_bomb (http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2015/09/17/the_clock_that_kid_brought_to_school_looked_like_a_freakin_bomb)
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 18, 2015, 09:02:58 AM
Now you're starting to piss me off, Mirth.
I'm done talking about it. We've stated our thoughts on the topic.
Quote from: mirth on September 18, 2015, 09:07:21 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 18, 2015, 09:02:58 AM
Now you're starting to piss me off, Mirth.
I'm done talking about it. We've stated our thoughts on the topic.
Of course you are, and you didn't even read the linked article. Must be nice to bury your head in the sand and then tell everyone else who disagrees that their opinions are "unsupported" because you haven't read anything about it.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 18, 2015, 09:10:05 AM
Quote from: mirth on September 18, 2015, 09:07:21 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 18, 2015, 09:02:58 AM
Now you're starting to piss me off, Mirth.
I'm done talking about it. We've stated our thoughts on the topic.
Of course you are, and you didn't even read the linked article. Must be nice to bury your head in the sand and then tell everyone else who disagrees that their opinions are "unsupported" because you haven't read anything about it.
You're way off base, JH. I did read the Rush article. I've been civil throughout this conversation, with you and everyone else. You started by calling bullshit and telling me I have a line of thinking that "that is leading to the doom of American culture". Now you're pissed at me and telling me that I am not open to other view points or information.
If you want a pissing match, I'm happy to play. I just don't really see the point.
Quote from: mirth on September 18, 2015, 09:16:27 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 18, 2015, 09:10:05 AM
Quote from: mirth on September 18, 2015, 09:07:21 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 18, 2015, 09:02:58 AM
Now you're starting to piss me off, Mirth.
I'm done talking about it. We've stated our thoughts on the topic.
Of course you are, and you didn't even read the linked article. Must be nice to bury your head in the sand and then tell everyone else who disagrees that their opinions are "unsupported" because you haven't read anything about it.
You're way off base, JH. I did read the Rush article. I've been civil throughout this conversation, with you and everyone else. You started by calling bullshit and telling me I have a line of thinking that "that is leading to the doom of American culture". Now you're pissed at me and telling me that I am not open to other view points or information.
If you want a pissing match, I'm happy to play. I just don't really see the point.
What? Since when can't family fight? I don't know how things work in your house, but I was really looking forward to the make-up sex.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 18, 2015, 09:24:19 AM
I was really looking forward to the make-up sex.
I didn't rule that out.
For the record, I completely agree with Rush on this (in fact I made some of these points upthread)
QuoteKindergarteners have been sent home for using their hands to pretend to be firing a gun. A 13-year-old with a toy AK-47 has been shot and killed by the cops, and a 10-year-old boy was suspended for pointing a finger like a gun. A 12-year-old Rhode Island student was suspended for small key chain gun. "Oklahoma teachers union seeks to keep zero tolerance rules banning imaginary guns." Everybody has become so sensitized to this because of the actual shootings at schools that there has become a "zero tolerance." So the point here is that the effort is being made to blame school officials and the cops for Islamophobia here, and that is not what is going on. Zero-tolerance policies at schools, which are the direct result of previous incidents -- the zero tolerance is out of control, such as pretending to shoot a gun with your finger (that gets you sent home) -- is what's responsible here. It's just the latest example, and it's made to order for Obama, because here we have once again backlash against Muslims, you see?
Quote from: Bison on September 17, 2015, 07:17:47 PM
I suggest respectfully you google kids toy gun suspension. You will find plent of stories to refute the notion this was merely based on the color of skin. Kids are suspended, arrested, and charged for toy guns, keychain guns and all sorts of similar absurdity.. Including white kids too as if that matters, but apparently race is what matters in this case. Kids are suspended for wearing t-shirts with the American flag. They aren't getting tweets of support or condemnations that the school and police acted stupidly from the highest levels of power in this nation. Why? Because every damned thing these days is political. It either supports the agenda or it doesn't.
You nailed it, Bison.
O0
With all the "zero tolerance" craziness going on in the school system, swaths of the media run
this piece just because there's a race angle. ::)
I'm just going to put this right here...
http://www.youngcons.com/ahmed-mohameds-father-battled-against-florida-koran-burner-ran-for-president-twice-in-sudan/ (http://www.youngcons.com/ahmed-mohameds-father-battled-against-florida-koran-burner-ran-for-president-twice-in-sudan/)
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 18, 2015, 11:18:30 AM
I'm just going to put this right here...
http://www.youngcons.com/ahmed-mohameds-father-battled-against-florida-koran-burner-ran-for-president-twice-in-sudan/ (http://www.youngcons.com/ahmed-mohameds-father-battled-against-florida-koran-burner-ran-for-president-twice-in-sudan/)
So this whole thing may well have been a stunt instigated by the father. In that case, charges should definitely be brought.
And I will freely acknowledge that details about the father are being omitted by the mainstream media.
Couple of additional links about the father
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/father-muslim-kid-arrested-clock-standout-citizen-article-1.2363466
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/muslim-at-koran-trial-says-he-didnt-know-the-holy-book-would-be-burned/2011/04/05/AFKNR3oC_story.html
From the WP article:
QuoteElhassan, a native of the Sudan who is now an American citizen, likes to call himself a sheik. He wears a cleric's flowing white robes and claims hundreds of followers throughout Egypt, Sudan and in the United States.
But he is unknown as a scholar or holy man in the state he has called home for two decades. Religious leaders in Texas say they have never heard of Elhassan, including the imam at the mosque where he worships.
"This so-called leader, we have never heard of this person," said Imam Zia ul Haque Sheikh, the head of the Islamic Center of Irving. "I believe the whole thing is made up."
Yep. Smells like a stunt and a sham. I hope more details are forthcoming.
And more.
http://www.okayafrica.com/news/istandwithahmed-mohamed-elhassan-mohamed-sudanese-father-backstory/
So it looks like the father is an attention whoring scammer who orchestrated the whole thing.
And this is why I'm skeptical of immediate media and activist outrage. There is always a backstory not be told and usually for a reason.
...apology accepted.
...now about that make-up sex?
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 18, 2015, 12:02:56 PM
...apology accepted.
...now about that make-up sex?
When does the wife leave for work?
so the worse case scenario here is his son getting shot in the face by the police for hos own political/personal agenda
arsehole
Quote from: undercovergeek on September 18, 2015, 12:10:49 PM
getting shot in the face by the police for hos
sounds very Mirthy
Thanks for clarifying that, guys.
JH, you were right. The kid made something that did look suspicious and his father appears to be (at the least) starved for attention.
I do have to question why, according to Brant's posts, the cops didn't evacuate the building if they were taking things seriously? And if they weren't taking things seriously why was the kid handcuffed and questioned so vigorously? It seems like the reaction and the suspicion have a real mismatch.
Based on what I know now about the father, I think the police may have suspected he put the son up to it, but because they couldn't prove it they had to let the kid go. I think they might have been trying to get something from the kid to implicate the father. Yes that's supposition on my part, but it fits with what I've learned today.
There's clearly more to the story than what is being widely reported. The background of the father is being completely ignored by the mainstream media.
Interesting read and most certainly the last I will venture to entertain about the latest story of 24 hour news cycle #OUTRAGE.
http://blogs.artvoice.com/techvoice/2015/09/17/reverse-engineering-ahmed-mohameds-clock-and-ourselves/
Quote from: Bison on September 18, 2015, 06:57:34 PM
Interesting read and most certainly the last I will venture to entertain about the latest story of 24 hour news cycle #OUTRAGE.
http://blogs.artvoice.com/techvoice/2015/09/17/reverse-engineering-ahmed-mohameds-clock-and-ourselves/
Excellent article, Bison. Thanks.
Quote from: LongBlade on September 18, 2015, 07:21:11 PM
Quote from: Bison on September 18, 2015, 06:57:34 PM
Interesting read and most certainly the last I will venture to entertain about the latest story of 24 hour news cycle #OUTRAGE.
http://blogs.artvoice.com/techvoice/2015/09/17/reverse-engineering-ahmed-mohameds-clock-and-ourselves/
Excellent article, Bison. Thanks.
+1
so actually the kid did not engineered a clock, he just did a crude
case-mod (from a vintage 80ties model case into a hoax-bomb model case)
reading the story about the father (no country should harbor those kind of 'refugees' from the beginning anyway) .
I just invented a new science-project for American kids from the opposite site.
the
Schrödinger's Quran: put a Quran (the cheepest you can find) in a tight case and a randomize devise that either release a very corrosive liquid (or any other fluid, that came to mind) on the book or not...so Quran is either humiliated or not? Should there be reason for outrage or not? make a nice YT video ...and let got it go viral ...and watch the Media kneejerk reaction on that stunt;D
(when the Media has gone apeshit, release a making-of YT video, which shows the 'Quran' placed in the case, was actually a quantum mechanics physics text book with just a Quran wrapping book cover... so no actual holy book was harmed in the science/art project ...we dont want embassies stormed and people getting killed)
so where are my Pasadena's JPL or Caltec job offerings now for re-inventing the Schrödinger Thought Experiment and adapting it to our troubled times ;-)
Looking back in retrospect after a chaotic work week and not much free time .. :crazy2:
Schools these days aren't like they were when I attended 20 years ago. A lot of things have happened since then that force people to be more aware of things around them.
The kids' technical teacher advised him against showing around his gadget to other teachers. I'm assuming he was given some friendly and responsible advice, which was not followed. Then again, I don't expect 15 year olds to listen to much advice - I know I didn't back then.
A staff member (presumably someone who was not the technology teacher), alarmed at the students gadget decided to report it to the admins. He/she did was following part of her role as a teacher of the school, this is what is expected (teachers looking out for the welfare and security of the students and school).
What happened between the time the kid was in the principals office and when the cops decided to arrest him and someone having to take a photo of it as well for the papers, I'm not sure 100%. I'm hoping by this time, they realized this was not a bomb. The kid did not say it was a bomb, quite the contrary. A 15 year old in the school office usually starts blubbering like a 15 year does, and admits everything. In that light, I don't know why they had to arrest the kid and handcuff him. This was a big SNAFU, that went waaaaay too far.
As for the father now, the guy is a Sufist (basically in plain speak, you're into mysticism) and in many countries, they are persecuted. Apart from that, he sounds like a 'character' (which isn't a legal offense afik), but nothing threatening. Probably upset at seeing his kid cuffed after a bad call - who wouldn't be.
To me, it all comes back to the school. If they legitimately thought it was a bomb, they would've evacuated. I know, I've been through 3 evacuations
The school knew it was not a bomb. The tech teacher had already seen it and knew it was harmless (if disquieting). He or she would have taken steps at that point if needed. After the next teacher became alarmed the school probably tried to make some kind of an example out of the kid vis a vis the school's policy on bomb hoaxes (though those are usually, though not always, phoned in as opposed to resulting from props) as opposed to actual bomb threats. I think the admin's reaction had much more to do with knee-jerk asserting of authority than any kind of immediate concern over student safety. Maybe the admin feels that their leadership is being questioned a little too often and on this occasion the self-preservation instinct triggered was not one of physical survival but of career survival.
The key is "hoax". There is no need to evacuate and cause panic in that situation.
An interesting article about false racism.
QuoteThe police overreacted. Yet the device did look like something Ethan Hunt would lob out of a helicopter at the last minute in "Mission: Impossible." As National Review's Charles Cooke pointed out on Twitter, the scary-looking tangle of wires "looks a lot more like a bomb than a pop tart looks like a gun."
Josh Welch, a white Maryland kid with ADHD who was 7 years old when he was kicked out of school for chewing a Pop-Tart into the shape of a pistol and pretending to shoot other students with it, must be puzzled.
Where's his White House invitation? Where's his chance to start networking at Facebook? His parents were forced to hire a lawyer and spent a year and a half just trying to get the suspension erased from the kid's record. They were repeatedly refused.
"I stand with Ahmed, too. But I also stand with Alex Stone," noted Reason writer Robby Soave. Alex Stone, a 16-year-old white kid from Summerville, SC, wrote a short story in which he imagined using a gun to kill a dinosaur. For this his locker was searched and he was arrested, handcuffed, charged with "disorderly conduct" and suspended from school for three days.
source: http://nypost.com/2015/09/19/how-ahmeds-clock-became-a-false-convenient-tale-of-racism/
Quote from: endfire79 on September 19, 2015, 09:00:53 AM
A 15 year old in the school office usually starts blubbering like a 15 year does, and admits everything. In that light, I don't know why they had to arrest the kid and handcuff him. This was a big SNAFU, that went waaaaay too far.
Don't assume that. Plenty of 15 years olds think they're smarter and can be an arse to their teacher/principle because they think it funny. Which is probably why the cops got called and he eventually ended up handcuffed.
this is what happens when there's an actual bomb threat
http://abc11.com/news/sanderson-high-school-on-lockdown-after-bomb-threat/996274/
(BTW, this is here in town, about 2 miles from my house, and happening now)
Brant, I've been reading a bit more about the issue.
Irving, TX has been a major target of advocates of Sharia law. There is a long history of locking horns between Islamofascists and the locals.
This is clearly an excerpt, and the quote opens with a discussion of the kid's father.
QuoteAhmed's handlers include the Council on American Islamic Relations, a.k.a. CAIR, an organization founded by the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas in the early 1990s to advance the Islamist agenda. To them, "if you see something, say something," equals racism. What a great way to disarm America.
And now, we turn to Irving – America's battleground in the clash over Islam's Sharia Law.
Following an honor killing in which Egyptian taxi driver Yaser Said shot his two teen daughters Sarah and Amina in his cab because they became "too Westernized," and refused arranged marriages including to man nearly triple in age, Irving officials took a hardline position to help stop repeats.
In March of this year, Irving Mayor Beth Van Duyne made national news by pushing a Texas legislature bill, "American Laws for American Courts" which would stop judges from using foreign law in their rulings. She vocally opposed Sharia mediation at a local mega-mosque too. The Mayor knows that even under lenient interpretations, Sharia treats women and girls as property and thus prone to domestic abuse. In the most extreme cases, honor killings.
Well, guess who's been out to get the Mayor ever since?
If you guessed Ahmed's family, friends and CAIR, you'd be right.
So, enter the fresh faced, nerdy kid with the NASA shirt, who tinkers with go-carts and just wants to be an engineer someday. Hollywood couldn't have cast him better. Just three weeks into high school, he secretly carries in a device that any TSA agent at airport security would think is a bomb. Then provokes police to get arrested, leaving the cuffs on just long enough for his sister to snap a photo.
Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2015/09/21/did-america-get-trolled-by-ahmed-and-his-clock/
^That pieces it together quite well. And yes, we have been trolled.
Even Bill Maher thinks it looks like a bomb
Quote from: mirth on September 22, 2015, 12:34:21 PM
^That pieces it together quite well. And yes, we have been trolled.
The background of happenings in Irving is the context we were missing. We knew something didn't add up - we simply didn't know what. Now we do.
When I agree with Bill Maher, I know I'm screwed.
I would dearly love to be a bug on the wall when-if-ever Ahmed gets his White House visit with Obama after this.
THAT WAS A METAPHOR, NSA!!
My point being that if they legitimately thought it was a bomb, why not evacuate. If it wasn't a bomb, why handcuff a kid. Pull him to the principal's office, sure. Call in the parents? Yep. Handcuffs and perp walk for a 14-yo? Seriously?
It should have been handled better, but I'm inclined to think it was a deliberate effort to trigger a police response, orchestrated by the father and family.
Watch the Bill Maher segment. Mark Cuban talked to the kid on the phone and said he could hear the sister coaching her brother on his responses.
Quote from: mirth on September 22, 2015, 02:35:02 PM
I'm inclined to think it was a deliberate effort to trigger a police response, orchestrated by the father and family.
This.
I suspect this was done to make it completely clear that a hoax like this will be taken seriously. His father is a Grade A provocateur. The cuffs were to let the kid know that the game the kid is playing has very real and bad consequences. Maybe he'll straighten out where his father did not.
Having digested what I believe is the full story, I'm 100% behind the cops cuffing him. They should have hauled him off to jail for a few hours for good measure.
Quote from: LongBlade on September 22, 2015, 02:42:56 PM
Quote from: mirth on September 22, 2015, 02:35:02 PM
I'm inclined to think it was a deliberate effort to trigger a police response, orchestrated by the father and family.
This.
I suspect this was done to make it completely clear that a hoax like this will be taken seriously. His father is a Grade A provocateur. The cuffs were to let the kid know that the game the kid is playing has very real and bad consequences. Maybe he'll straighten out where his father did not.
Having digested what I believe is the full story, I'm 100% behind the cops cuffing him. They should have hauled him off to jail for a few hours for good measure.
Well they did haul him off to a juvenile detention center.
It makes it easier to understand why they questioned him for a lengthy period, without the parents. They were likely trying to get information about the father's involvement.
The hoax theory- I am not happy with that. Yes, it sounds fishy, but that doesn't mean it was a hoax.
When it was clear a mistake had been made (no bomb or even solid evidence of a hoax), the parents should have been called and a conference should have taken place. Instead the police were called, he was arrested and interrogated (the police seriously went fishing) without his parents present. That is freaking ridiculous. I am all for the teacher acting on their gut feeling, no problem there. When it was clear an honest mistake had been made, somebody should have called his parents and the craziness stopped there.
I think this zero tolerance stuff is insane. Teachers and administrators need discretion. Even after hearing all the stuff about his dad and that the clock wasn't all that original, my core reaction remains unchanged. I want my children safe in school. I want them protected by sound policy and alert teachers, not by over reaction to trivial incidents after the fact.
Apparently the parents ducked attempts by the school and police to meet with them. And now the family is not allowing the school/police to release records of the incident.
http://townhall.com/columnists/kyleshideler/2015/09/22/irving-mayor-ahmed-mohameds-family-blocking-release-of-records-obama-tweeted-support-even-before-clock-pic-released-n2055545 (http://townhall.com/columnists/kyleshideler/2015/09/22/irving-mayor-ahmed-mohameds-family-blocking-release-of-records-obama-tweeted-support-even-before-clock-pic-released-n2055545)
QuoteVan Duyne said that according to the information she had seen, Mohammed had been "non-responsive" and "passive aggressive" in response to questions from police officers. The refusal to amiably resolve the situation continued as the family rushed to bring Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) representatives into the case, and repeatedly cancelled meetings with the school district and city officials before finally speaking to the media.
"We had tried to reach out to the family a number of times; this was before it ever even hit the papers on Wednesday," Van Duyne said pointing out that the family repeatedly canceled attempts to discuss the matter.
"At the exact same time they were supposed to be meeting with us, they were on their front lawn with a press conference," she said.
Van Duyne also pointed out that President Obama, like many others, had rushed to judgment before the facts in the case had become available.
"We never even got a call from anybody at the White House asking to verify any of that information. I don't think the picture of the hoax bomb was even released before he tweeted 'cool clock kid.'" Van Duyne said.
Kid cleaned up too
(https://fortunedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/ahmed-mohamed.jpg?quality=80&w=840&h=485&crop=1)
http://fortune.com/2015/09/21/ahmed-mohamed-schwag/
I've still read no specifics of the interaction between Briefcase-Clock Kid and the school authorities when this incident happened. For all we know, he could've been a smartass about practicing his bomb-making skills. If he learned bad habits from his father.. who knows how it went down.
We certainly won't know the full details if the family refuses to release them. From what I understand, that is all kept secret for juveniles. So the press can continue to jump to whatever conclusions they feel like implying.
This guy pretty much nails it
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/ahmed-mohamed-clock-bomb-media-narrative-ian-tuttle (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/ahmed-mohamed-clock-bomb-media-narrative-ian-tuttle)
QuoteSo perhaps everything unfolded exactly as originally reported: Ahmed "built" a clock, he simply wanted to show it off, a teacher panicked. But even to those who think that administrators and/or law enforcement overreacted (which I do), or that Ahmed was victimized by his skin color (which I don't), the details above suggest legitimate questions. In a saner political culture, those questions would have preceded the creation and propagation of the narrative.
Now, I have no doubt the father saw this as a golden opportunity to push his political agenda. At the same time, with the facts immediately at hand when the incident occurred, the school could have handled it a lot better. Getting the police involved due to the possibility of it being a bomb hoax, a position that did not stand up to scrutiny, was just stupid. Zero tolerance policies have caused so much stupidity in America, it really defies any sort of rational explanation.
On the other hand, the kid's identity and opportunities he receives for years going forward will be closely linked to a false victim narrative. It is sad, but that is the country we live in. This case is much like the Michael Brown case; a false racist narrative spreads like wildfire over a media all too willing to accept the story at face value. As cracks emerge in the story, the original creators of the myth have moved on. The myth becomes fact and the next time something similar happens, this new "fact" is the basis of the narrative for the new incident.
The media are simply too lazy and too frightened to revisit the false narratives it largely creates. We are left with the inability to sort fact from myth, because the media never sought to correct the narrative in the first place.
Quote from: Swatter on September 23, 2015, 01:50:24 PM
Getting the police involved due to the possibility of it being a bomb hoax, a position that did not stand up to scrutiny, was just stupid.
It increasingly looks like it was intended as a hoax bomb. It also seems likely the father had a hand in orchestrating the event with the intent to trigger a police response which he could then claim was heavy-handed.
What is not standing up to scrutiny is the notion that this was a kid who innocently built a homemade clock and brought it to school to impress his science teacher. It now looks like a staged event to push an agenda.
I guess we will agree to disagree.
some decent perspective
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/ahmed-truthers-clock-muslim/
Quote from: bayonetbrant on September 24, 2015, 12:44:21 PM
some decent perspective
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/ahmed-truthers-clock-muslim/ (http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/ahmed-truthers-clock-muslim/)
Great find, Brant.
This nicely captures how I now think about the matter.
QuoteI jumped to conclusions about Ahmed's clock the first time, so I'm not going to do it now. But what these geeks show us makes the entire episode look very fishy. The early Ahmed Truthers on this blog who suspected the kid was put up to this stunt by his attention-seeking gadfly of a father might have been on to something. Whatever the truth is, it seems at least likely that Ahmed did not "invent" anything. That may not justify the overreaction of school officials and the Irving police, but it's worth seriously considering, if Ahmed did, in fact, plagiarize this device, whether or not he was trying to provoke exactly this kind of overreaction. Somebody needs to get to the bottom of this — or has the story become too useful for the White House and others who rushed to Ahmed's defense to discredit?
The problem we are dealing with has two distinct facets. The first is school reaction and the second is the fishiness of the father and the device after the fact. Its a sad commentary on the news media that instead of doing their job as reporters and investigators, they simply took initial reports and fit those reports into the pre-made narrative that minorities are oppressed by institutional racism. It just so happens that particular narrative is the go-to narrative to get hits and views (and perhaps fits into their worldview win-win).
I sincerely doubt the kid was being provocative, its just too convoluted. The proponents of the hoax theory want to string together events, that as you string the pieces together become less and less likely to the point where they simply say it is fishy.
The most likely explanation is that the kid put took apart a clock and put it into another case. Perhaps not the most praise worthy thing, but he thought it was cool. He brings it to school to show his teachers and it creeps some teachers out and they initiate the process that lead to the police being called and the kid being arrested. The kid was not being as cooperate as he could have been, perhaps he thought his father was right about Islamaphobia and was being a typical teenager when confronted with something unfair (shock, shock). Enter the father. He saw the political implications of this and immediately took advantage of the situation and the predictability of the media. This is where we stand now.
My scenario is the simplest and most likely explanation that fits the facts. No need for improvable supposition, just a simple narrative that fits what we know.
And yes, it is not fair to other kids who are standout inventors who receive no special attention from the President and other celebrities. At the same time, the idiotic response to the initial media reports and the gifts and opportunity that flowed from that are not the kids fault. I hope he makes the best use of his opportunities, though perhaps not truly earned. That life people!
I don't think it's stringing together facts. It's objectively looking at information that was left out of the original narrative. The closer one looks at this the more it looks like a staged event intended to provoke a response from the school/police and less like an innocent mistake by a 14 year old inventor.
Quote from: mirth on September 24, 2015, 04:13:58 PM
an innocent mistake by a 14 year old inventor.
Keep in mind, per the article above, the kid *invented* nothing. He disassembled an electric clock from the 1980s and placed the various components (still connected to each other and working properly) into a briefcase. Having seen pictures of said "invention" it is clear the device in no way resembles a clock but instead looks like a bunch of electronics stuffed into a briefcase.
What that might look like I'll leave to your respective imaginations.
This isn't simply a random string of events which conspired against a hapless kid. The events have context. The context has meaning.
I was using the term 'inventor' ironically.
Quote from: mirth on September 24, 2015, 06:24:39 PM
I was using the term 'inventor' ironically.
Ah. My mistake.
Carry on, my good man. (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1081.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj349%2Flongblade%2FSmilies%2Ftophat.gif&hash=4a26a90bfa7c972586a1feccef2b94332bd5a5c9)
Well the news is the kids sister was suspended for making a bomb threat to her school a couple of years ago. Seems like a family pattern forming to me.
Quote from: Bison on September 24, 2015, 06:54:01 PM
Well the news is the kids sister was suspended for making a bomb threat to her school a couple of years ago. Seems like a family pattern forming to me.
Events have context. Context matters.
Rumor has it that two of the questioning officers let a couple things slip to the locals:
1) The clock was counting down, not keeping time.
2) When questioned about it, the kid gave smartass remarks and refused to give a straight answer. Therefore, the arrest theatrics.
Of course.. the details of the arrest cannot be officially released to the public because the kid is a minor and the parents would have to sign off on permission to do so. Which would likely be against whatever original intent they had.
Quote from: Nefaro on September 24, 2015, 07:55:25 PM
Rumor has it that two of the questioning officers let a couple things slip to the locals:
1) The clock was counting down, not keeping time.
2) When questioned about it, the kid gave smartass remarks and refused to give a straight answer. Therefore, the arrest theatrics.
Of course.. the details of the arrest cannot be officially released to the public because the kid is a minor and the parents would have to sign off on permission to do so. Which would likely be against whatever original intent they had.
That would be the final fact to seal this theory. It would explain everything.
Except how the kid got it to count down.
<reflects for a moment>
I'm not sure this story holds water. Remember, the science teacher saw it first. Wouldn't he have thrown up a flare if it were counting down? Seems weird.
Quote from: LongBlade on September 24, 2015, 07:49:56 PM
Quote from: Bison on September 24, 2015, 06:54:01 PM
Well the news is the kids sister was suspended for making a bomb threat to her school a couple of years ago. Seems like a family pattern forming to me.
Events have context. Context matters.
#contextmatters
#contextlifematters
#argylelivesmatter
Rumors! I'm sure we are on the right track now.
"Dirty little secrets
Dirty little lies
We got our dirty little fingers
In everybody's pie
We love to cut you down to size
We love dirty laundry"
Quote from: Swatter on September 25, 2015, 03:51:57 PM
Rumors! I'm sure we are on the right track now.
Read that from a fellow wargamer & vet I've known for years who lives there & says he personally knows the two officers involved in the arrest (where that info came from).
So take it as you will. I called it rumor, since it's already passed one set of ears, but have little reason to personally doubt it.
Hey, once someone digs in their heels their opinion almost never changes on the internet.
I've started to write a rebuttal several times but it simply isn't worth the time because of the above statement.
Personally, I am always looking for information to improve my opinion.
Nefaro, It's hard to weigh the information you provide. There are 50,000 ways in which the info relayed to you could be incorrect in some aspect. I have no way to verify, so I simply cannot put much weight behind it. If the officers have something important to say, let them come forward. Otherwise, it is simply rumor. During the Ferguson BS, here in St. Louis, local talk radio interviewed seemingly credible sources about Darren Wilson's side of the story, people who supposedly knew him. 80% of stuff like that I heard was wrong. People were simply mistaken, lying, or both.
Whenever I rub my two brain cells together with enough vigor, I try and evaluate arguments in a similar way to what I learned in my logic and philosophy classes. From that perspective, you have to evaluate evidence that you have in hand. Value known fact above circumstantial speculation. While I do see smoke, I don't see the fire.
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlf1/v/t1.0-9/12038477_863647850380338_1768804612955883310_n.jpg?oh=7f3cfcf90931b8e34997389b771f8481&oe=568C8F37)
Quote from: Swatter on September 25, 2015, 10:14:04 PM
Personally, I am always looking for information to improve my opinion.
Nefaro, It's hard to weigh the information you provide. There are 50,000 ways in which the info relayed to you could be incorrect in some aspect. I have no way to verify, so I simply cannot put much weight behind it. If the officers have something important to say, let them come forward. Otherwise, it is simply rumor. During the Ferguson BS, here in St. Louis, local talk radio interviewed seemingly credible sources about Darren Wilson's side of the story, people who supposedly knew him. 80% of stuff like that I heard was wrong. People were simply mistaken, lying, or both.
Whenever I rub my two brain cells together with enough vigor, I try and evaluate arguments in a similar way to what I learned in my logic and philosophy classes. From that perspective, you have to evaluate evidence that you have in hand. Value known fact above circumstantial speculation. While I do see smoke, I don't see the fire.
That's well reasoned enough.
Several of us have put forward a series of facts which provide a context for the boy's actions and make a strong case that both his father and the muslim community have fomented tensions with the local officials. It is also clear that the kid didn't really invent anything and the item he assembled bore no resemblance to a clock.
Within that context the theory that the kid was part of a hoax seems quite believable.
That said I'd be interested to entertain the facts as you see them. What have we missed?
The good thing is that we all agree on the facts (minus the rumors).
Let me present the three scenarios I think are important:
1) The kid was an inventor who built a clock and brought it to school to show off to his teachers. A teacher is disturbed by the clock because the student is Muslim, thinking Muslim equals bomb. The teachers and staff over react because of his religion and skin color and call the police. The police then puts the kid in cuffs and interrogates him like he was a terrorist (or at minimum a hoaxer). This incident is just another example of the institutional racism.
Analysis: I think this story gets all the facts correctly (perhaps overdoing the "inventor" part). The problem with this story is that the media wants it to be another story (Michael Brown), so it fills the gaps in knowledge with a victim narrative.
2) The kid liked to build things and installed an alarm clock into a different case, thinking it was cool. He brought it to school to show his science teacher. Another teacher is suspicious that it could be a bomb or some sort of hoax. The kid is pulled out and questioned about it and is not very cooperative. The police are called and they cuff and question him without a parent present. The father, a known provocateur, immediately senses an opportunity to push his own less than fair narrative to the media. This narrative is gobbled up without question. While the dad injects some questionable perspective into the story, the kids was ultimately handled somewhat harshly (not anything new) and was not shown to be a hoaxer.
Analysis: You will notice the above story is much the same as the first, except a few facts are added and the victim narrative is ignored. This above story covers much of the known facts without assuming facts not in evidence or assuming he is a victim of racial discrimination. This is the story I like, because there is no need to insert rumors or read too much into an single fact.
3) This kid was either in on a hoax or was duped by his father into bringing the device to school to trigger a hoax. The clock was put into a case deliberately to look like a bomb. Some ever say the clock was counting down. The staff picked up on the obvious hoax and the police were called. The kid's father wanted his son to be arrested and interrogated by police to make a political statement and that's what he got. The father orchestrated the entire thing for his own skewed politics. The kid now reaps the ill gotten gains of his father's scheming.
Analysis: You will notice that all of the facts associated with the story are construed in the worst possible light. Gaps in knowledge are filled with the worst possible motivations. For me, its even less convincing than the victim narrative in #1. The way it tries to make the kid and father into villains based on spinning all known facts in one direction, its just lazy thinking. It builds a house without a foundation. It looks like a house until a storm blows in and it collapses. Its craving for something, some sort of payback because the kid really didn't deserve the praise he got and because his father is a dick.
Now, if someone can bring some hard facts to bear, that's a different story. As it stands, the narrative that says it was a hoax simply inserts speculation in between facts. That's not a very reliable way to conduct a witch hunt.
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/12049583_10153622844048486_4866427128897177205_n.jpg?oh=c772c0dcd8864c77d104d50989f23b37&oe=5661FF0F)
Quote from: Swatter on September 26, 2015, 10:37:06 PM
Analysis: You will notice that all of the facts associated with the story are construed in the worst possible light. Gaps in knowledge are filled with the worst possible motivations. For me, its even less convincing than the victim narrative in #1. The way it tries to make the kid and father into villains based on spinning all known facts in one direction, its just lazy thinking. It builds a house without a foundation. It looks like a house until a storm blows in and it collapses. Its craving for something, some sort of payback because the kid really didn't deserve the praise he got and because his father is a dick.
That works both ways though. The mainstream media wants to portray the kid as the innocent victim of a racist, Islamophobic school and police department. I'm not sure how what you spell out in #1 automatically fits that narrative. There are plenty of gaps in knowledge around #1 that have been filled in to make the kid look like an innocent "inventor" who just built a clock. But he didn't invent anything. He took the parts of a commercial clock and put them into a case to make something that looked an awful lot like a hoax bomb. Then he was not forthcoming about his motives for doing so when questioned about it. Those facts are not in dispute and are not being interpreted in the worst possible light.
It's also not in dispute that his father has a history as an attention gathering provocateur.
The kid got praise not as an inventor, but because of a societal reaction to perceived persecution that was fed by the media's narrow reporting of the "facts".
I really hate agreeing with Bill Maher
Swatter, if the school/police are in the wrong, then why are they wanting to release their records on this issue, but being prevented because the family refuses to allow them. That one fact points more to this being a hoax that the family is trying to get all they can out of it.
I would think that if this is a real potential racial issue, then the DOJ is conducting an investigation. So we should find out in a few months if there was any wrong doing by the school/police or not.
I think the zero tolerance policy is wrong, not the fact the kid was pulled out of class and questioned.
There were 7 bomb threat made to different schools in Ohio on Friday and at least two in Florida. If they catch the person that did this, what would be the appropriate punishment. Why should there be much tolerance for this kind of crap.
The zero tolerance policy probably is wrong, but that's not the conversation this incident has been trying generate.
I think any narrative account for the facts must also include:
1.) The disassembled clock was very old. Pre-1985 at the latest, maybe late-70s old. We can be nearly deductively certain we can identify the make and model of the clock.
2.) It was put into a small case that looks exactly like a suitcase.
3.) It was not reassembled to look or function much like a clock. It was intentionally presented as a messy bunch of wires and circuit boards inside something that, while small, looked like a suitcase.
4.) Ahmed intentionally set the alarm to beep in the middle of another class, calling attention to it, after his first teacher warned him not to go showing it to other people.
5.) In an interview afterward, Ahmed continued to insist he had designed and invented a clock, instead of merely disassembling an old clock to present as a messy bunch of wires and circuit boards.
6.) During the same interview, Ahmed specifically says he knew ahead of time the package would look suspicious, saying he took steps to make it look less suspicious -- but by doing something trivial (wrapping the power cord around it), not by making it look more like a clock than a messy bunch of wires inside a little suitcase.
I think we all basically agree on the same facts. I didn't want to spend four hours precisely outlining every single fact and detail of a particular narrative. In order to believe it was a hoax, you must put every single fact into a narrow context and fill in missing information with conspiracy. That rarely works out folks. This (and I apologize in advance) has the feeling of a 9/11 conspiracy. Take the facts that you want, put them into a very specific context, fill in the missing information with dark intentions and villains, and viola conspiracy. I am not saying it wasn't a hoax, but there has not been one solid scrap of evidence that would stand up in a court of law to point to a hoax. Without solid evidence, you are left with spin and innuendo.
Admittedly, if I wanted to perform a bomb hoax, that is the kind of device I would make. It does look like a bomb. At the same time, it could simply be an unfortunate choice by Ahmed. Without evidence to the contrary, you are not on intellectually solid ground to suggest otherwise.
Can someone post a meme about beating a dead horse?
Quote from: Swatter on September 28, 2015, 02:45:48 PM
I am not saying it wasn't a hoax, but there has not been one solid scrap of evidence that would stand up in a court of law to point to a hoax.
We actually don't know that either, since the parents will not allow the police to release the report for the incident. The family has controlled the narrative from the get go. If there is spin, it is theirs. Not everyone is buying their version of events. There are plenty of reasons to question the narrative they have provided.
Did those facts seem to fit more into a neutral scenario to you, when accounted with the other known facts?
My impression is that including them didn't improve your estimated likelihood of this all being a completely innocent misunderstanding. But I didn't salt the descriptions with dark conspiracy etc.
For what it's worth, I feel pretty confident I could find a way to fit those details into a fairly innocent misunderstanding. Whether that innocent explanation would feel increasingly strained to this or that person, is another question.
QuoteIn order to believe it was a hoax, you must put every single fact into a narrow context and fill in missing information with conspiracy.
On the contrary, we can draw an induction (where a set of data suggests a theory's shape, the likelihood of which is then increased or decreased by new data) or abduction (where a hypothesis is proposed and then tested by how well the known facts fit) from the evidence without prejudice. You're acting like dark intentions and villains are completely foreign to the set of facts, but they're actually included in the set of facts: the boy is in close family contact with elders and groups who have a definite history of acting in particular ways.
Since dark intentions, villains, and conspiracy, are all demonstrably part of the set of facts, why shouldn't we factor them into the estimated likelihoods of various theories? Admittedly the connection of these facts to the situation is questionable, although points of contact do pop out (like the cuffs only being on long enough for the Ahmed's sister to snap a photo).
I agree we should regard someone as innocent until proven guilty -- looking for plausible innocent explanations (beyond a false insistence he had designed and invented a clock when he hadn't done any such thing, but that's relatively innocent by itself) is a worthwhile and laudable endeavor.
My only point is that people who are inferring non-innocent explanations (beyond the fake claim to have created a clock from scratch) aren't doing so in a vacuum where all they have are non-suspicious-seeming facts which are only being filled in by imaginary suspicion to look suspicious.
Quote from: mirth on September 28, 2015, 03:20:51 PM
Quote from: Swatter on September 28, 2015, 02:45:48 PM
I am not saying it wasn't a hoax, but there has not been one solid scrap of evidence that would stand up in a court of law to point to a hoax.
We actually don't know that either, since the parents will not allow the police to release the report for the incident. The family has controlled the narrative from the get go. If there is spin, it is theirs. Not everyone is buying their version of events. There are plenty of reasons to question the narrative they have provided.
Well said, though technically they could be opportunistically spinning off what was a more innocent original narrative -- although in any case there's a core deception in play
by the boy himself which might have shaped how things went. There's a hard limit to how innocent his own actions have been. The salient question is how far that hard limit extends, so to speak.
This horse ain't dead yet :P
I am not saying that a detective with the local PD would not have probable cause to investigate. What I am saying is that we need to without judgment without solid evidence. Solid evidence would be an admission of guilt or some sort of physical evidence that directly points to a hoax (like the clock was counting down). Short of that, we are simply filling in the blanks with supposition.
I agree with everyone who says Ahmed does not deserve the attention he received, he didn't "invent" anything.
Look at the device he brought to school. It's appearance alone is enough to warrant the response it generated. Like Bill Maher noted, try taking that 'clock' through an airport screening and see what happens.
Unfortunately Swatter the withholding of judgment until facts were presented were trumped within hours following the event. It's one of the reasons I dislike 24 hour "news" and twitter depth analysis "politics". We should just become a society of memes and move onto our demise.
Quote from: mirth on September 28, 2015, 04:50:31 PM
Look at the device he brought to school. It's appearance alone is enough to warrant the response it generated. Like Bill Maher noted, try taking that 'clock' through an airport screening and see what happens.
I'd like to mention I pointed this out way back in the beginning of the discussion. The damned thing never looked anything like a freaking clock.
Quote from: Bison on September 28, 2015, 04:50:59 PM
Unfortunately Swatter the withholding of judgment until facts were presented were trumped within hours following the event. It's one of the reasons I dislike 24 hour "news" and twitter depth analysis "politics". We should just become a society of memes and move onto our demise.
We are moving onto something. You don't need much imagination to see some really bad scenarios playing out on a societal level.
Quote from: Bison on September 28, 2015, 04:52:46 PM
Quote from: mirth on September 28, 2015, 04:50:31 PM
Look at the device he brought to school. It's appearance alone is enough to warrant the response it generated. Like Bill Maher noted, try taking that 'clock' through an airport screening and see what happens.
I'd like to mention I pointed this out way back in the beginning of the discussion. The damned thing never looked anything like a freaking clock.
You did and I don't disagree. In the opening hours of the incident, it was spun to sound like a kid who had invented a homemade clock. There was nothing reported at the time indicating his intent was to create a hoax bomb. In the following days, lots of information came to light that points to that being exactly his intent. I bit on the early spin. I was wrong.
Thanks. But my point was more that I made the call way before Bill Maher. :D
Quote from: Bison on September 29, 2015, 08:19:49 AM
Thanks. But my point was more that I made the call way before Bill Maher. :D
I wouldn't exactly wear that as a badge :P
Noted.
Look at it from my perspective. I agree with you and Bill Maher. Reality is crashing down around me.
^^ Crashing down around you like A BUNCH OF CLOCKS!
>:D
Quote from: mirth on September 29, 2015, 08:12:01 AM
In the opening hours of the incident, it was spun to sound like a kid who had invented a homemade clock. There was nothing reported at the time indicating his intent was to create a hoax bomb. In the following days, lots of information came to light that points to that being exactly his intent. I bit on the early spin. I was wrong.
I am in the same boat. Initially I was quite critical of how the authorities handled the situation. However, as soon as further information came to light I, too, changed my opinion.
There's nothing wrong with reaching a conclusion based on facts, only to find out later additional facts contradict the first conclusion. The trick is to be wise enough to change your opinion.
I'm not sure what caused me to think the media would get the story right from the start. I feel so naive and foolish :idiot2:
I just assume the media is always only telling 1/4 of the story based on fact and 3/4 based on some political interpretation. And it doesn't matter the news source they all seem to do the same just depends on the slant they espouse. Even a story about a wildfire, which should seem simple enough to tell objectively, is reported in the same manner.
Quote from: Bison on September 29, 2015, 10:29:52 AM
I just assume the media is always only telling 1/4 of the story based on fact and 3/4 based on some political interpretation. And it doesn't matter the news source they all seem to do the same just depends on the slant they espouse. Even a story about a wildfire, which should seem simple enough to tell objectively, is reported in the same manner.
I'm usually extremely sceptical of the media. I just let myself get snookered this time.
It happens to all of us. Especially if the story strikes a nerve. I can get pretty bent out of shape about school news to the point I've had to stop reading articles about school lunch programs.
The reason nobody at the school recognized it as a clock is none of them know how to tell time anymore. "How can it be 8:20 when there's not even a 20 on the clock"?
Most teachers know when it's 4:20.
Quote from: mirth on September 30, 2015, 07:58:36 AM
Most teachers know when it's 4:20.
yeah, the kids tell them ;)
Quote from: mirth on September 30, 2015, 07:58:36 AM
Most teachers know when it's 4:20.
I learned this to be true more often than I had originally expected, before getting to know some public school teachers. ;D
Quote from: Nefaro on October 01, 2015, 03:13:46 PM
Quote from: mirth on September 30, 2015, 07:58:36 AM
Most teachers know when it's 4:20.
I learned this to be true more often than I had originally expected, before getting to know some public school teachers. ;D
I've known many teachers over the years. It was said only as a half jest ;)
Quote from: mirth on October 01, 2015, 03:15:53 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on October 01, 2015, 03:13:46 PM
Quote from: mirth on September 30, 2015, 07:58:36 AM
Most teachers know when it's 4:20.
I learned this to be true more often than I had originally expected, before getting to know some public school teachers. ;D
I've known many teachers over the years. It was said only as a half jest ;)
Which means it's approximately half-true. *wink wink nod nod*
OK, so *this* meme made me laugh
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/12140692_1693234210919153_2515644454468833490_n.jpg?oh=193e578a5bc63c512a503615f893544a&oe=569DE4BE)
I laughed, too.
Lol'd hard!
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsafr.kingfeatures.com%2Fidn%2Fcnfeed%2Fzone%2Fjs%2Fcontent.php%3Ffile%3DaHR0cDovL3NhZnIua2luZ2ZlYXR1cmVzLmNvbS9NYWxsYXJkRmlsbG1vcmUvMjAxNS8xMC9NYWxsYXJkX0ZpbGxtb3JlLjIwMTUxMDEzXzkwMC5naWY%3D&hash=3cff299f01cbe3f99f712ed914a179095e4eb3e0)
So Clock Boy and family are off to Qatar
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2015/10/clock_boy_ahmed_mohammed_moving_to_qatar.html
And he met with the Sudanese president, a wanted war criminal
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/16/ahmed-mohamed-sudan-president-omar-al-bashir-texas-clock
What a heart-warming tale this has turned out to be.
Hopefully they'll like Qatar so much they stay there.
Good riddance.
Heard it today on Fox, the whole family is moving back to the Middle East. Where young boys can get a proper education in "Clock-Making".
QuoteSo Barack Obama, Sergey Brin, Mark Zuckerberg and all you other lefties, be aware that Clock Boy is not interested in freedom or tolerance or equality. He is throwing his lot in with a repressive Sharia-based regime. You've been had.
...in a few years the news will be: "Former 'Clock-boy' killed by Predator drone" ...the incident happend in a remote location hitting a convoy of tango-vehicles in Yemen leaving a bomb-shop (or some exchangeable IS-owned landscape somewhere in the rotten Middle East)
Media react with outrage. Obama spokes women reports ex-president was 'shocked' to hear about it ....but was able to finish his hole with a Birdie. Retiered cop involved in the arrest in 2015 said: 'I told ya'!
Don't let the door hit ya where your pedo God split ya......
Everytime I see the stupid grin on his face I just wanna open the whole can of whoop A.
Good riddance to you and your family.
If there's any justice someone will plant a suitcase bomb on board
I actually feel bad for the kid. He gets used by his father, then by numerous celebrity types, for attention by proxy. Now he gets to go live somewhere where he'll undoubtedly be put to work in some sort of makeshift bomb lab somewhere. It isn't like he has any say on where he's moving to.
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/12191898_916138491775270_5733050247917018200_n.jpg?oh=a4e61040c05e2a2405341d6cd0ff4d4f&oe=56B4EE0E)
FWIW, I think Qatar is fairly Westernized. It's not as progressive as, say, Dubai/UAE, at least to my knowledge (which is limited more to Dubai since my company has offices there), but it's not Mecca or Syria or a more extreme environment. (Even Dubai isn't entirely Western and you have to watch your step there, but it's still pretty relaxed compared to other Arab countries.)
well, in Dubai two Brits! who where 'seen' (actually the witness who called the cops later said only her son has seen the couple) kissing at a restaurant in Jumeirah Beach Residence where thrown into jail for 1 month!
we would all be better off if the whole area should be nuked from orbit once an for good, if i had a saying ...so better not enlist for that office ;-)
Yeah, PDA is one thing (of several) that Dubai doesn't play with. Even if you're married, they can ticket you for even holding hands in public.
Am I remembering correctly that Clock Boy did get around to meeting Obama? Left for Qatar a few days after that?
I didn't just dream that, right? He went stargazing with President Obama, after all the evidence indicating he was at best merely hoaxing having "invented" a clock?
{checking internet}
THIS WAS NOT A FEVER INDUCED HALLUCINATION! :o
I wonder if he brought the clock, and if so whether he brought it in just the same state it was when it 'went off' in class. And whether he set it to 'go off' unexpectedly at the astronomy event.
Because that would be hilarious.
Update: no, apparently the disassembled suitcase clock was still impounded until four days after the event.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on October 28, 2015, 05:44:58 AM
FWIW, I think Qatar is fairly Westernized. It's not as progressive as, say, Dubai/UAE, at least to my knowledge (which is limited more to Dubai since my company has offices there), but it's not Mecca or Syria or a more extreme environment. (Even Dubai isn't entirely Western and you have to watch your step there, but it's still pretty relaxed compared to other Arab countries.)
From what I understand, Qatar, Dubai, and the UAE have certain 'zones' where things are a lot more open. Basically, it's in those designated areas that you'll find bars and other things of that nature, since those are the zones where most Western business interests are located.
You're correct, AB. My company has a huge presence in Dubai. I haven't made it there yet but several on my team have been there.
Though, you really don't want to mess with the cops there.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmemecrunch.com%2Fmeme%2F28VHM%2Fdubai-police%2Fimage.png%3Fw%3D500%26amp%3Bc%3D1&hash=932caf9bfd8977dc804df7f73d3f2598f46f1650)
kind of hard to outrun a Veyron... :P
Considering how small some of those countries are (Dubai and Qatar, not the UAE), I would be interested in seeing GTA VI or a more police-oriented sandbox game set there.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on October 30, 2015, 01:39:24 PM
kind of hard to outrun a Veyron... :P
Unless you're in an Aston Martin One-77...
Ahmed the inventor fake bomb maker is suing. I hope the school/district counter-sues, but that might be considered too politically incorrect...
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2015/11/23/clock-kids-family-demand-apology-15-million-in-damages/
Quote from: steve58 on November 23, 2015, 01:59:59 PM
Ahmed the inventor fake bomb maker is suing. I hope the school/district counter-sues, but that might be considered too politically incorrect...
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2015/11/23/clock-kids-family-demand-apology-15-million-in-damages/
It's hard being a pimp in the UAE.
He's baaack...
Quote
After a nine-month stay in Qatar, Ahmed Mohamed returned to Texas this week with a deeper appreciation for his religion and a thicker skin.
...
Ahmed knows what he wants to accomplish next: finish school in Qatar, attend the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and double-major in physics and electrical engineering.
...
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/local-news/20160629-clock-boy-ahmed-mohamed-on-life-in-qatar-what-he-s-learned-about-hate.ece
So he's going to continue his
indoctrination schooling in Qatar, and then go on to learn how to make really, really big
bombs clocks... :-\
$15 million damages? :o Is that really the quantum of his loss? It seems an excessive claim to me, having regard to the background fears of terrorism. Did the School act properly? No. Were the police OTT? Maybe. But at the end of the day, what really was his loss? Is the claim proportionate to the damage he's suffered? I don't think so.
Quote from: Boggit on July 01, 2016, 10:16:02 AM
$15 million damages? :o Is that really the quantum of his loss?
Of course it's not. But they know they have the school district by the PC short hairs, so they're going to push for whatever they can milk out of the system.
And this is why our school systems suck...they're so, SO afraid of getting sued over any little thing.
well, when they get sued, the damages come out of taxpayers' pockets, so in that regard, I can understand why they're so cautious. The problem is that the courts won't tell idiot glory-hounds looking for lottery-sized 'damages' to kiss off.
Someone has to fund the kid's future terrorist plots. :uglystupid2:
He'll get a "Free-Ride" at Obama University.
Quote from: steve58 on November 23, 2015, 01:59:59 PM
Ahmed the inventor fake bomb maker is suing. I hope the school/district counter-sues, but that might be considered too politically incorrect...
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2015/11/23/clock-kids-family-demand-apology-15-million-in-damages/
Lawsuit dismissed (https://pjmedia.com/trending/2017/01/10/clock-boy-loses-in-court-dads-defamation-lawsuit-dismissed/).
Quote from: steve58 on January 11, 2017, 09:53:27 AM
Quote from: steve58 on November 23, 2015, 01:59:59 PM
Ahmed the inventor fake bomb maker is suing. I hope the school/district counter-sues, but that might be considered too politically incorrect...
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2015/11/23/clock-kids-family-demand-apology-15-million-in-damages/ (http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2015/11/23/clock-kids-family-demand-apology-15-million-in-damages/)
Lawsuit dismissed (https://pjmedia.com/trending/2017/01/10/clock-boy-loses-in-court-dads-defamation-lawsuit-dismissed/).
Good.
QuoteDuring the lengthy hearing, Judge Moore pressed Mohamed's lawyer, Fort Worth attorney Susan Hutchison, to provide any facts that would suggest that Hanson and the other defendants had said anything false or defamatory about Mohamed or his son during the television broadcasts. After spending a painfully embarrassing 15 minutes flipping through reams of paper, Mohamed's lawyer was unable to provide any such evidence.
i hope the future Trump administration revokes the citizenship of that whole Mohamed Elhasan Mohamed flock of troublemakers and banns them from reentry to the US and Texas for good.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi67.tinypic.com%2F27z9hja.jpg&hash=dbf912302bbe76f088da19a05ad29ee6114fef19)
I just don't know what makes those kind of people....tick? Could you say that their attorney.....bombed? Maybe she was only.... grandfathered-in as a lawyer. At least the 'around-the-clock' news coverage is over this anyway. :clap:
The whole thing is cuckoo
It kind of grinds my gears, too.
Counting down to him strapping a real bomb into a briefcase in 3... 2...
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on January 11, 2017, 12:06:40 PM
It kind of grinds my gears, too.
Wound you up didn't it?
^Don't tick him off!
I feel sorry for the kid. Over here he gets in trouble for making a clock that looks like a bomb, and over there he gets in trouble for NOT making a bomb that looks like a clock. Kid can't win. #:-)
Time will tell what happens with the kid.
A fitting end.
His 15 minutes of fame are over.
Not to worry. He'll be back for seconds.
He should be on somebody's 'Watch' list.
That blew up in his face.
Quote from: Sir Slash on January 12, 2017, 10:08:26 AM
He should be on somebody's 'Watch' list.
It's about time we had a winner! O0
In recent news, Ahmed Mohamed's dad, Mohamed Mohamed, has not only lost his suit against the school system for the Clock Boy incident, but has also lost his attempt at suing Ben Shapiro, Glenn Beck, Fox Television Station, and its show "The Blaze" (among some other related parties), for comments made by Shapiro about the incident during a commentary interview with Megyn Kelly.
Instead, the judge hit the dad with $480,000 of penalties for trying to abuse the court system.
Quote from: JasonPratt on July 20, 2017, 07:08:42 PM
Instead, the judge hit the dad with $480,000 of penalties for trying to abuse the court system.
Beautiful.
Four hundred and eighty grand? Damn! Looks like 'Clock Boy' better get on the clock to help 'Clock Dad' out. :clap:
Four hundred and eighty grand?
some Sunni Islamists terror supporting for a hobby (beside camel races, sportscar or yacht collection and falconry) private person prince/sheik from the Gulfstates will non-public donate it just for a laugh between his lunch and dessert, written on a napkin or just with a nod to one of his many assistants...
Looks like Clock Boy's daddy is on the hook for another $200,000 in court costs (https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2018/03/14/times-up-clock-boys-lawsuit-against-texas-city-tossed-by-federal-judge-n2460997). His son's faux bomb blew up in a way he probably was not expecting...
From the looks of the Wiki page for Mohamed Elhassan Mohamed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Elhassan_Mohamed) (clock boy's father), I would hazard a guess that he can afford to pay the fines.