SINS OF A SOLAR EMPIRE 2

Started by CaptainKoloth, September 15, 2022, 03:59:47 PM

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Grim.Reaper

#15
Quote from: Destraex on September 17, 2022, 09:01:50 PM
I should be excited about this, but I can't help thinking that the devs were on the fence about doing sins2 until they realised they could finance the game development with Epic money. I wonder how enthusiastic the devs really are about doing Sins2? Will this simply be a drop and run project, a normal 9-5 kinda deal? Is it a bandwagon trend.

I have no idea what intentions the developers have, but putting out a game is a lot of work and find it difficult to believe the developers wouldn't have some level of interest to even bother doing versus just going through the motions to make some quick money.  They haven't done anything for awhile for this game series why would this all of a sudden be a need and go this route?  Do you have an article or write up that you can link where they give some kind of hint this is a possibility?

Even if accurate that having some level of Epic support pushed them over the edge of putting out a new version, why is that a bad thing?  I am sure plenty of developers have things they want to do and may require financial support to pursue them, especially for a game they hope to have high visibility, which of course leads to increased money?

Feels like these concerns (non-gameplay) are more about Epic then the game/developer themselves.  Would the same concerns (non-gameplay) be raised if they deployed directly to Steam and had additional financial support in some other way?  It's totally everyone's right to like or not like Epic, but think the developer deserves a chance until proven otherwise.  Personally, I have no issues with Epic although their platform is not as robust as Steam and given the choice I would purchase from Steam first, but it wouldn't prevent me from buying games from Epic.  But I understand that everyone doesn't feel that way.

I guess we'll see how it all turns out soon enough as the store page lists first access on October 27th.

Jarhead0331

^not only that, but Stardock isn't exactly a spring chicken. It's been around for awhile. We know how they operate and I think we know what to expect from their titles, good and bad alike.
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


Grim.Reaper

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 18, 2022, 06:07:25 AM
^not only that, but Stardock isn't exactly a spring chicken. It's been around for awhile. We know how they operate and I think we know what to expect from their titles, good and bad alike.

Yep, that too.....I was not very good at the previous versions, but enjoyed just watching the battles.  I'll be picking up for sure and hopefully it clicks better for me this time.

CaptainKoloth

Quote from: Destraex on September 17, 2022, 09:01:50 PM
I should be excited about this, but I can't help thinking that the devs were on the fence about doing sins2 until they realised they could finance the game development with Epic money. I wonder how enthusiastic the devs really are about doing Sins2? Will this simply be a drop and run project, a normal 9-5 kinda deal? Is it a bandwagon trend.
At least we are getting sins right? Well so far apart from the orbit mechanics for planetary objects which were tried and discounted as too complicated for the original sins, I cannot really see anything new. The races are the same, multithreading though is new, as is the "claim" that their will be more 4x elements. Again here I get the impression that what the devs mean here is that they will take 4x elements from their "experiments" with the last Rebellion DLCs.
With Nebulous Fleet Command and Homeworld3 almost upon us I can certainly afford to wait for sins2 to prove itself.
I myself am not an Epic fan. But am amost certain to pickup sins2 if it reaches steam. Chivalry2 is a good example of problems you can have, Epic players still cannot friend Steam players to group up in game before searching for a match.

You make some good points, though I figure, best outcome we get a great game, and worst comes to worst... Sins 1 isn't going anywhere. It's sort of win win.

jamus34

I find it peculiar that they release news of this on the heals of updates for Homeworld 3.

The RTS genre has been mostly dormant for what, over a decade minus some outliers and H3 is one of the more anticipated titles and they decide to drop this?

Doesn't seem to make much sense to me. But hey, I'm just a guy, what do I know
Insert witty comment here.

Destraex

Quote from: Grim.Reaper on September 18, 2022, 05:21:16 AM
Quote from: Destraex on September 17, 2022, 09:01:50 PM
I should be excited about this, but I can't help thinking that the devs were on the fence about doing sins2 until they realised they could finance the game development with Epic money. I wonder how enthusiastic the devs really are about doing Sins2? Will this simply be a drop and run project, a normal 9-5 kinda deal? Is it a bandwagon trend.

I have no idea what intentions the developers have, but putting out a game is a lot of work and find it difficult to believe the developers wouldn't have some level of interest to even bother doing versus just going through the motions to make some quick money.  They haven't done anything for awhile for this game series why would this all of a sudden be a need and go this route?  Do you have an article or write up that you can link where they give some kind of hint this is a possibility?

Even if accurate that having some level of Epic support pushed them over the edge of putting out a new version, why is that a bad thing?  I am sure plenty of developers have things they want to do and may require financial support to pursue them, especially for a game they hope to have high visibility, which of course leads to increased money?

Feels like these concerns (non-gameplay) are more about Epic then the game/developer themselves.  Would the same concerns (non-gameplay) be raised if they deployed directly to Steam and had additional financial support in some other way?  It's totally everyone's right to like or not like Epic, but think the developer deserves a chance until proven otherwise.  Personally, I have no issues with Epic although their platform is not as robust as Steam and given the choice I would purchase from Steam first, but it wouldn't prevent me from buying games from Epic.  But I understand that everyone doesn't feel that way.

I guess we'll see how it all turns out soon enough as the store page lists first access on October 27th.
I hear you, I have no proof, just past projects like Total War Troy. That also seemed like it would not have happened without EPIC and was done simply because EPIC threw money at CA. I have no proof of that either. Just observing the results and coming to my own unsupported conclusions. 
I was always going to give them a chance. I am just trying to dissuade myself from any form of early access.
"They only asked the Light Brigade to do it once"

FarAway Sooner

Disappointment is the foundation of revolt, my friend!   :)


Destraex

Watched some of the youtube videos with footage. I hope they have a lot more surprises up their sleeves. Because this looks much like a remaster rather than a sequel at the moment. Fingers crossed.
"They only asked the Light Brigade to do it once"

Grim.Reaper

Time will tell but a post by the company that explains the route they are going.  If they are believed, they plan to make changes based on community feedback along the way and we are way early in this process.

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire2.com/515090/sins-ii-we-need-your-help

Grim.Reaper

Patch update today.....happened to notice and EPIC coupon for the holiday, so I decided to buy today...would have caved eventually anyway:)


NEW FACTION
Added initial content for TEC Rebel faction

NEW UNITS
Added TEC Sova capital ship

Added TEC Marza capital ship

Added TEC Dunov capital ship

Added TEC Neruda Envoy

Added TEC Argonev starbase

Added Phase Inhibitor

NEW SHIP COMPONENTS
Added Exotic Salvage Policy:

Insures the capital ship so that exotics used in its manufacture are automatically recovered in the event the ship is destroyed

Your initial free capital ship comes with this insurance in its inventory. The goal is to make it much easier to rebuild your capital ship if it was destroyed early in the game

Added Mobile Argonev Starbase:

Grants capital ships the ability to deploy starbases at remote locations

NEW PLANET COMPONENTS
Added Munitions Plant:

grants bonus dps to allied structures and starbases in orbit

Remade Autonomous Refinery:

improves orbital resource extraction rates

only available on certain planet types (e.g. asteroids)

Added Civic University:

Establishes ground-based Civilian research facilities.

Added Hidden Military Lab:

Establishes ground-based Military research facilities.

NEW MAP
Added 5 player random medium map

Renamed the previous map with a "_custom" postfix to indicate it was a custom hand-made design (as opposed to randomly generated)

NEW CULTURE
Added initial TEC culture content

NEW RESEARCH SYSTEM:
Added first pass of new research system and interface. Still incomplete but gives a better idea of the direction we are heading. Focus is on the gameplay of research and the structure of the interface (not the aesthetics).

GAMEPLAY
Orbital resource extractor structures are now dependent on research, not mining track levels

Switched Kol's Finest Hour to deal a percentage of damage dealt as splash damage rather than a fixed amount

Fixed Energized Space planet bonus bad data

Fix derelict loot spawning inside stars

Fixed upgraded Retrofit Bay not repairing corvettes and frigates

Changed item building to allow queuing of items if their prerequisite items are queued, but only build them if those prerequisites are finished

Fixed Media Conglomerate buff not being removed when item is removed

MODELS
Update TEC Exotic Refinery mesh

Updated TEC Gauss Defense mesh

Updated TEC Retrofit Bay mesh

Updated TEC Heavy Factory mesh

Updated TEC Light Factory mesh

Updated Pirate Pillager mesh

Update experiment with TEC Kol textures (testing new detail and scale cues)

RENDERING
FPS optimizations: Some hardware combinations could receive 5x to 50x fps improvement

Fixed dynamic light discontinuities (e.g., when bombing a planet)

BALANCE
Nothing of consequence unless it was part of a complete system change

Not a priority at this stage

USER INTERFACE
Added temporary new scuttle interface:

Select all units to scuttle, press 'delete' key to scuttle en masse

You may need to delete \AppData\Local\sins2_pre_alpha\settings\input_bindings.json and restart the game to force the new default key bindings.

If you made custom key binding edits and don't want to lose them you can also edit the file manually:
-"toggle_scuttle_units": [
{
"keyboard_key": "del"
}],

Added new bottom bar structure for ships and planets:

Added ship and structure build groups to help with organization

Added planet bonus and artifact buttons

Removed planet asset rates from window (info still available on tooltip)

Removed set rally point button (right click to set rally points or use related ship component)

Added advanced planet window

Moved excavation to be with other track buttons

Adjusted advanced and carrier bottom bars to leave room for build queue

Added new exotic window

Improved fleet supply window

Improved colonized planet window

Escape menu can now be accessed from the root window by pressing the escape key

Added close button to escape menu

Added dpi settings to settings->user interface window

Fixed various dpi issues

Removed extra background from buttons

Update various unit main view icons

Added various background windows

Added disabled state to npc reward buttons

Added focused_text_color

Added garrison tooltip icons (main view icons will be coming at a later date)

Added highlighted state to default button

Added item_prerequisites to item_tooltip

Added pirate portraits

Added merchant and miner npc player portraits

Added new exotic pictures

Adjusted the spacing of the top bar on the title screen

Added ability to customize cursors for different npc rewards (e.g., pirate raid vs others)

Attached name and culture indicator properly to picture window

Updated notification icons

Fixed notification spacing

Fixed auction button spacing

Darkened assorted hud frames

Updated structure of some front-end screens

Cleaned up some front-end layout issues

Fixed tooltip flickering when over an extractor AND canceled extractor

Fixed culture indicator tooltip showing up when unit not visible

Suppressed culture rate tooltip value rendering if the rate is zero

Fixed missing nightmare difficulty icon

Fixed npc auction bid button alignment

Fixed Advent and Vasari player icons showing up for TEC

Fixed random hud components never getting focused

Fixed top bar buttons being active when they shouldn't be

Fixed ultimate exotic reward icon binding

Fixed unit bars in ship window not showing shields and antimatter

Fixed units without gui (e.g., debris) getting into bookmark window

Fixed camera panning

Fixed waiting for exotic on tooltip for newly built structures

Hide player icons on meshes when cursor over by default

Improved unit name text entry behavior

Added lock and open icons

Added icons and layout for the discord, forum, and guide

Added new test cursors

Added npc reward targeting UI (can customize cursors for different npc rewards (pirate raid vs others))

EFFECTS
Experiment with TEC Kol exhaust particles (testing new particle behaviors)

Experiment with TEC Kol Heavy Gauss effects (testing new particle behaviors)

Added placeholder muzzle effect for Kol beam

Added particle effects spawned from beam effects

Added beam duration to muzzle effects

Added placeholder effects for Research Station PSIDAR

Added placeholder projectile effect to EMP Droids

Added variation seeding to particle_effects so there is less perfectly synchronized behavior (e.g., dual barrel muzzle flashes)

Fixed acceleration of particles not being cleared

AUDIO
Added missile impact sfx alternates

Added physical heavy hull impact sfx alternates

Added physical medium hull impact sfx alternates

Added physical light hull impact sfx alternates

Added more music

Updated capitalship death explosion sfx

Updated cruiser death sfx

Updated TEC capital ship exhaust sfx

Updated TEC frigate death sfx

Updated TEC strikecraft death sfx

Updated TEC corvette death sfx

CRASHES
Fixed crash in exotic_tooltip

Fixed crash in planet tooltip

Fixed crash when dragging ship items in production window

Fixed crash when dragging research items
Fixed common assert(is_unit) (very likely to cause crashes)
MISC
Removed garrison ships from player regular ship unit limit

Added trigger events and action to support modifying pending damage as it is registered

Add text-based rendering_system settings to help track down video card issues

Fixed acquire research tier exotic reservations not being cleaned up

Fixed various misleading strings

Fixed various string misspellings

Fixed militia attacking derelict guardians

Added ignoring of old save games that could cause crashes

Fixed missing "delete" key binding for Scuttle action

Fixed unable to rename ships and planets

Fixed tooltip overlapping bottom bar at lower resolutions

Fix list box inverted scrolling with mouse scroll wheel

Fixed all Point Defense weapons not acquiring best possible target

Fixed Starbase beams and missiles being enabled prematurely

Fixed Dunov only firing 1 missile per volley

Fixed Dunov and Sova attack alignments

Improved Kol, Dunov, and Sova firing arcs

Adjusted research balance slightly

Adjusted economy slightly

CaptainKoloth

OK, I've been able to put a good number of hours into the game over the holiday - not as much as I'd like to really think through the game mechanics deeply (that would be hundreds of hours), but at least a couple dozen- enough that I feel like I can give some high-level feedback.

First of all, the TLDR: I love this game. I am having a blast with it. The wife had to tear me away from it multiple times over the holiday. It's definitely a "Sins quality game", a worthy successor to the original, a true sequel rather than just a facelift. There's still a ton that needs to be changed and lots and lots of content that hasn't been added yet; bear in mind that the below comments refer to an early alpha or pre-alpha.

Improvements in this version of the game over Sins 1:

1) Planetary motion

I didn't think much of this when it was mentioned in the previews, but I've been very pleasantly surprised at how much it changes up the gameplay and causes me to think along yet another strategic dimension. Planets I heavily build up and fortify as major nexuses may be useless an hour later, and vice versa. You can't just chokepoint everything through one starbase as you previously could. This is a massive, massive improvement to the gameplay. I also love how the moons work and that the planets and asteroids rotate, taking structures with them. Having objects constantly in motion adds yet another great strategic element to the game that forces you to think many steps ahead. This is terrific. And I like how (as far as I can tell) you can't see exactly where the future phase lanes will be, adding some randomness/fog of war to the proceedings.

2) Research system

Not that it's really new, but I feel like everything is exceptionally well integrated- I want this, so I need to get that, so I need that prerequisite- it doesn't feel like anything in the research tree is superfluous or can be skipped, and it seems very well linked together. I also like the new research tier system. It's functionally the same as the old required number of research stations, but I like this implementation better.

3) Planet/ship slot upgrade system

I love this. Fantastic improvement to the gameplay to have modular components. I wouldn't mind "moar stuff" and additional components, but the implementation is excellent.

4) Use of actual turrent pointing

This is great. And this isn't yet utilized to anywhere near its full potential, and it could be a real game changer.

5) Change in pirate mechanics

Pirates in Sins 1 were mostly a nuisnace, and an actual nuisance in the sense of not being much fun to deal with. The new pirate/minor faction system probably isn't 100% there yet, I need to think about it some more, but it's close, and I think it's perfectly fine as is.

6) Black market overhaul

Much better. In Sins 1 it was easy to just keep dumping crystal for credits (or whatever other combination you wanted) such that resources weren't much of an issue after the initial stages of the game: this system is much better. That being said, I do think the price needs to be more reactive to your market actions as it was in the first game.

7) Art, music

I'm neither much of an artist or musician, but I'm quite happy with the art direction, graphics, and sound.

8 ) Replacement of capital ship crew cap with exotics

I feel like this is a much better system. Before there was a somewhat artifical system to limit the number of capships - now it's more like "if you really want to spend that much, you can at your own risk", which I feel like is a more interesting option for the player.

9) Nerudas are much more useful

I never used diplomacy in Sins 1. The new Nerudas are much more interesting and useful in that they can spread culture (maybe they did this Sins 1, I hardly ever used them, but I don't think they did). I think this use of the envoy ships is much improved.

10) Stability

Quite excellent for such an early build. I only had one crash and it was sort of a fluke (trying to send some ships to meet up at a certain planet) - never happened again in dozens of hours of gameplay.

11) Moddability

I am convinced that the superb implemention of moddability on Sins 1 is one of the things that's kept it going so strong 15 years (!) later. There are very few strategy games, if any, that I can think of, that have this degree of longevity that aren't also highly moddable, so I'm extremely happy to see that it remains a key part of the roadmap for later. It's a core feature of a great, long-lived game in my view, and there are still incredibly talented teams putting together amazing mods for Sins 1 to this day.

12) Starbases

I like the new implementation of starbases a lot better. In Sins 1 they were definitely overpowered, especially since you could build them anywhere. Having them be more of a true gravity-well fixed structure nerfs them appropriately, and, combined with the moving planets, this means they're no longer unstoppable deathtraps that you can stack at choke points.



It's still early enough that I'd recommend it only to real Sins 1 diehards- but if that's you and you're on the fence, buy this game. You won't be disappointed.

Jarhead0331

Thanks for the great summary. I have it, but haven't put much time into it. Glad that they are making meaningful changes and additions.
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


CaptainKoloth

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on January 02, 2023, 12:37:17 PM
Thanks for the great summary. I have it, but haven't put much time into it. Glad that they are making meaningful changes and additions.

Ironically it looks like just a facelift, but it's not- there are some really excellent improvements to the gameplay mechanics.

Just one thng- good luck learning it. The documentation is currently nonexistent, including missing buttons and tooltips. Even the forum isn't of much  help or is quickly outdated. But if you know Sins 1 you'll figure out most of it in a couple of hours.

Destraex

#29
Quote from: CaptainKoloth on January 02, 2023, 11:45:16 AM
OK, I've been able to put a good number of hours into the game over the holiday - not as much as I'd like to really think through the game mechanics deeply (that would be hundreds of hours), but at least a couple dozen- enough that I feel like I can give some high-level feedback.

First of all, the TLDR: I love this game. I am having a blast with it. The wife had to tear me away from it multiple times over the holiday. It's definitely a "Sins quality game", a worthy successor to the original, a true sequel rather than just a facelift. There's still a ton that needs to be changed and lots and lots of content that hasn't been added yet; bear in mind that the below comments refer to an early alpha or pre-alpha.

Improvements in this version of the game over Sins 1:

1) Planetary motion

I didn't think much of this when it was mentioned in the previews, but I've been very pleasantly surprised at how much it changes up the gameplay and causes me to think along yet another strategic dimension. Planets I heavily build up and fortify as major nexuses may be useless an hour later, and vice versa. You can't just chokepoint everything through one starbase as you previously could. This is a massive, massive improvement to the gameplay. I also love how the moons work and that the planets and asteroids rotate, taking structures with them. Having objects constantly in motion adds yet another great strategic element to the game that forces you to think many steps ahead. This is terrific. And I like how (as far as I can tell) you can't see exactly where the future phase lanes will be, adding some randomness/fog of war to the proceedings.

2) Research system

Not that it's really new, but I feel like everything is exceptionally well integrated- I want this, so I need to get that, so I need that prerequisite- it doesn't feel like anything in the research tree is superfluous or can be skipped, and it seems very well linked together. I also like the new research tier system. It's functionally the same as the old required number of research stations, but I like this implementation better.

3) Planet/ship slot upgrade system

I love this. Fantastic improvement to the gameplay to have modular components. I wouldn't mind "moar stuff" and additional components, but the implementation is excellent.

4) Use of actual turrent pointing

This is great. And this isn't yet utilized to anywhere near its full potential, and it could be a real game changer.

5) Change in pirate mechanics

Pirates in Sins 1 were mostly a nuisnace, and an actual nuisance in the sense of not being much fun to deal with. The new pirate/minor faction system probably isn't 100% there yet, I need to think about it some more, but it's close, and I think it's perfectly fine as is.

6) Black market overhaul

Much better. In Sins 1 it was easy to just keep dumping crystal for credits (or whatever other combination you wanted) such that resources weren't much of an issue after the initial stages of the game: this system is much better. That being said, I do think the price needs to be more reactive to your market actions as it was in the first game.

7) Art, music

I'm neither much of an artist or musician, but I'm quite happy with the art direction, graphics, and sound.

8 ) Replacement of capital ship crew cap with exotics

I feel like this is a much better system. Before there was a somewhat artifical system to limit the number of capships - now it's more like "if you really want to spend that much, you can at your own risk", which I feel like is a more interesting option for the player.

9) Nerudas are much more useful

I never used diplomacy in Sins 1. The new Nerudas are much more interesting and useful in that they can spread culture (maybe they did this Sins 1, I hardly ever used them, but I don't think they did). I think this use of the envoy ships is much improved.

10) Stability

Quite excellent for such an early build. I only had one crash and it was sort of a fluke (trying to send some ships to meet up at a certain planet) - never happened again in dozens of hours of gameplay.

11) Moddability

I am convinced that the superb implemention of moddability on Sins 1 is one of the things that's kept it going so strong 15 years (!) later. There are very few strategy games, if any, that I can think of, that have this degree of longevity that aren't also highly moddable, so I'm extremely happy to see that it remains a key part of the roadmap for later. It's a core feature of a great, long-lived game in my view, and there are still incredibly talented teams putting together amazing mods for Sins 1 to this day.

12) Starbases

I like the new implementation of starbases a lot better. In Sins 1 they were definitely overpowered, especially since you could build them anywhere. Having them be more of a true gravity-well fixed structure nerfs them appropriately, and, combined with the moving planets, this means they're no longer unstoppable deathtraps that you can stack at choke points.



It's still early enough that I'd recommend it only to real Sins 1 diehards- but if that's you and you're on the fence, buy this game. You won't be disappointed.

Really appreciate this write up Koloth. It was a great read.

A few questions.

1) Did I understand correctly that solar systems rotate or just that moons rotate planets?
2) Did I understand correctly that starbases orbit planets and thus will not be useful until they come around to meet the enemy ships in stationary rather than geocentric orbits?
3) Ships are affected by gravity and must use orbits to slingshot themselves? I assume that this would not be and that they somehow just defy gravity or are extemely inefficient with their power usage to fight gravity or planets and large bodies as they approach a planet?
4) Is their any point maintaining heliocentric positions?
5) With regard to the jumping between systems, does this look cheesy or are proper orbits of some kind being followed??
6) Research stations are still used right? I liked that system.
7) Research tree certainly does not seem more 4X that they said they wanted the game to be.

The cap ships needing rare ores sounds like stellaris but I really don't know if it will work in sins. I hated the capital ship crew requirements. But I do like crew requirements as a mechanic in general so it would be great if that was a thing. But incidental really. Oh and I did hope that their would be a battlecruiser class in between the capital class and the cruiser class from sins1

BTW did you play sins rebellion with all the DLC when you last plays sins1? Curious if you can compare it to the fully upgraded sins1. Which had a tonne of the 4x stuff they wanted to do, but for me was really not enough and generally felt cheesy.

You have my full attention. You make it sound really good.
I really want a stellaris with good combat and physics. Could sins2 be that game?
As a control, did you play Stellaris Koloth? What did you think of that?
"They only asked the Light Brigade to do it once"