Tragic Air Disaster Involving B-17 and P-63

Started by ArizonaTank, November 12, 2022, 10:34:26 PM

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ArizonaTank

Prayers for those who lost their lives.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/six-feared-dead-as-world-war-ii-bomber-and-fighter-plane-involved-in-midair-collision-at-dallas-airshow/ar-AA142D0g?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=fa00460fe48243fc8a2df1e9619e1e88

I know these aircraft are as safe as you can make them, but part of me is starting to wonder if it may be better to start grounding them.

It goes without saying that the lives lost are irreplaceable. But in this case, so are the aircraft.

Looking at the video, it happened so fast that nobody would have had a chance.

What a tragedy.
Johannes "Honus" Wagner
"The Flying Dutchman"
Shortstop: Pittsburgh Pirates 1900-1917
Rated as the 2nd most valuable player of all time by Bill James.

al_infierno

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It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge.  War endures.  As well ask men what they think of stone.  War was always here.  Before man was, war waited for him.  The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner.  That is the way it was and will be.  That way and not some other way.
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If they made nothing but WWII games, I'd be perfectly content.  Hypothetical matchups from alternate history 1980s, asymmetrical US-bashes-some-3rd world guerillas, or minor wars between Upper Bumblescum and outer Kaboomistan hold no appeal for me.
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I guess it's sort of nice that the word "tactical" seems to refer to some kind of seriousness during your moments of mental clarity.
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GDS_Starfury

QuoteI know these aircraft are as safe as you can make them, but part of me is starting to wonder if it may be better to start grounding them.

the planes and their age are not at fault.  these aircraft are better taken care of then Smucks vulva.  100% pilot error.
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Gusington



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al_infierno

Quote from: GDS_Starfury on November 12, 2022, 10:47:41 PM
QuoteI know these aircraft are as safe as you can make them, but part of me is starting to wonder if it may be better to start grounding them.

the planes and their age are not at fault.  these aircraft are better taken care of then Smucks vulva.  100% pilot error.

Yeah, I watched the video and it was pretty brutal.  Even if the B-17 hadn't been there, it looked like the P-63 was due to eat the dirt.   :-\
A War of a Madman's Making - a text-based war planning and political survival RPG

It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge.  War endures.  As well ask men what they think of stone.  War was always here.  Before man was, war waited for him.  The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner.  That is the way it was and will be.  That way and not some other way.
- Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian


If they made nothing but WWII games, I'd be perfectly content.  Hypothetical matchups from alternate history 1980s, asymmetrical US-bashes-some-3rd world guerillas, or minor wars between Upper Bumblescum and outer Kaboomistan hold no appeal for me.
- Silent Disapproval Robot


I guess it's sort of nice that the word "tactical" seems to refer to some kind of seriousness during your moments of mental clarity.
- MengJiao

Groggy

It looks like the pilot of the P-63 lost visual contact with the B-17, tried to bank left to avoid a collision but lost spatial awareness of the B-17, and tragically struck the aft fuselage behind the wing box. What an awful loss of life and a horrible tragedy for the families.
''War is the unfolding of miscalculations.''-Barbara Tuchman

FarAway Sooner

It is just a tragic loss of life.  Last I read, there were 10 of them left flying in 2018.  That number is down to 8 now, with two having crashed since then.  At least one other B-17 crashed sometime between 2010 and 2018.

Flying in one of those with my brother has been something on both of our bucket lists for about 10 or 15 years now, but I'm starting to re-evaluate.  I can only imagine how the family of the flyers involved are suffering right now.

fran

Tragic, both human loss of life and aircraft.

Hoping investigation will determine the reason.


Jarhead0331

My father used to take me to that air show when I was a little boy. What a tragedy. RIP.
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Sir Slash

Very sad but I'll echo the, 'Pilot Error' being the cause not the age of the planes. Of course maybe the age of the pilots maybe a concern.
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Destraex

Man I really feel for all involved 🙁
The angle that fighter was on would have mean no looking through the floor to see the bomber. What really struck me though was how easily the fighter cut the B17 in half. Really shocking.
Thinking about it though I would have thought you would keep the bomber in view the whole time if you knew it was in the area. Turning with it or more shallowly. Easy to say in hindsite I suppose
"They only asked the Light Brigade to do it once"

Millipede

I saw an interview on one of the news networks with an official of the FAA and she said that every airshow has to meet several criteria before it receives FAA permission to proceed. Part of that process is a complete airshow run-through to see how all the various maneuvers fit together and, while it's still early days, one possibility is that the timing was off and that one of the aircraft was either ahead or behind schedule. As Destraex pointed out, neither of the pilots could see the other plane and they just arrived at the wrong place in the sky at the wrong time. Just speculation at this point.

JasonPratt

^ That's what I was thinking, watching the accident: it looked like a position-plan error.
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Sir Slash

I was at the Orlando Airshow a couple of weeks back. The maneuvers the planes did looked incredibly dangerous, until I realized from my angle they appeared that way. From the pilots view they were actually a good deal further apart. But at the speeds they were going, it only takes a second to make a fatal mistake. I do hope people don't use this as an excuse to beat-up on these annual shows nation-wide.   
"Take a look at that". Sgt. Wilkerson-- CMBN. His last words after spotting a German tank on the other side of a hedgerow.

ArizonaTank

#14
I love to see these warbirds flying as much as anyone. But over the last 11 years there have been at least 12 deadly accidents, and many lost vintage aircraft.

I know that in general, these aircraft are safe, and it is almost always pilot error, but maintenance or worn parts were noted as a contributing factors in at least two of the crashes.

Here is a list of aircraft lost since 2011:
https://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-news-fatal-plane-crashes-20221113-t6z5bwfkzfdt7bygwgtabugwfi-story.html

According to the article since 2011:
Almost 100 have been killed, and as many injured.
Vintage Aircraft lost are:
P-63 x1
B-17 x2
P-51 x3
Ju-52 x1
T-6 Texan  x1
G-73 Mallard x1
Stearman Biplane x2
T-28 x1
Hawker Hunter T7 x1

As far as lives lost, of course it is a tragedy, and I think we should always be looking to make air shows safer.

Also, for the vintage aircraft, I am just suggesting that we be much more conservative with how we fly these relics around; there aren't many left. We want our grandchildren to enjoy them as well.

Johannes "Honus" Wagner
"The Flying Dutchman"
Shortstop: Pittsburgh Pirates 1900-1917
Rated as the 2nd most valuable player of all time by Bill James.